November 18, 2025 • 30 mins
Laura is prioritising collaboration over competition to help develop impactful research projects.
Laura Breen is Research Development and Impact Manager at the University of Manchester where she helps bring together diverse, multi-partner research teams to tackle big challenges.
Sarah and Laura talk about
- Prioritising collaboration over competition and convening creative relational spaces
- Her journey from museums and ceramics to universities and impact
- How the impact agenda and REF are shaping research culture and even artistic practice
- The importance of empathy and intuition in how she works
Find out more
- Connect with Laura on LinkedIn
- Laura is leading on Engaged Research at the University of Manchester - you can see what this looks like via some case studies and videos on participatory research. The University of Manchester has also just released their strategy for 2025-35 which includes research impact as one of it's 5 main themes.
- Find out more about the Impact Ignite Conference that Laura is speaking at in late November 2025
About Research Adjacent
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- Fill out the research-adjacent careers quiz
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- Leave Sarah a voice message
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Laura Breen (00:01):
We've been pairing academics with people within the community.
And I did the pairing for that andquite a lot of come back and said, how?
How did you do that?
Like we really hit it off and Iwas like, I don't really know, but
it must be that kind of intuition.
I hate the fact that everythingbecomes a competition between
universities, especially around publicengagement and anything that becomes
(00:22):
a hot topic for REF or whereversuddenly you find yourself competing.
A very senior leader said the other daythat one of the governance groups that I
coordinate said was the best example ofone university thinking that I've seen.
Sarah McLusky (00:37):
Hello there.
I'm Sarah McLusky andthis is Research Adjacent.
Each episode I talk to amazing researchadjacent professionals about what
they do and why it makes a difference.
Keep listening to find out why wethink the research adjacent space
is where the real magic happens.
(00:58):
Hello and welcome along to episode 81,where I am joined by guest Laura Breen.
Laura is research development and impactmanager at the University of Manchester.
Her role is a cross University one.
She helps to bring togetherinterdisciplinary teams, connects
researchers with community partners, andprioritizes collaboration over competition
(01:18):
an approach, which has been described bysenior leaders as one university thinking.
Laura found her way to this workvia the museums sector and a PhD in
ceramics where she wrestled with whatimpact might look like for the arts.
Now, working across disciplines, shestill believes in convening what she
calls creative relational spaces andleads with empathy and intuition.
(01:40):
We talk about creating culturechange, why big challenges need
multi-partner interdisciplinary teamsand giving relationships time to grow.
If you're listening to this soon afterits release, you'll have a chance to
meet Laura in person at the ImpactIgnite Conference in Southampton next
week, where she will be talking aboutsupporting participatory research.
I'm gonna be there too, recordinga live podcast interview that
(02:02):
will be broadcast in early 2026.
So if you're going, make surethat you come along and say
hello to both me and Laura.
But for now, let's listenon to hear Laura's story.
Welcome along to the podcast, Laura.
It is absolutely brilliant to meet youand to hear all about your story today.
So I wonder if we could beginjust by giving the listeners a
(02:24):
little bit of an introduction toyou, who you are and what you do.
Laura Breen (02:28):
Yeah.
Thanks.
It was lovely to meet you finally.
I feel like I know you through allthese podcasts and all the other
people that we've got in common.
So yeah, at the moment I'm the researchdevelopment and impact manager in
the central research strategy teamat the University of Manchester.
Kind of before that, I've got abackground in having worked in impact.
I think this is my fourth institution.
Different levels.
(02:48):
Different roles in impact, and aresearch and practice background
in museums, and worked in projectmanagement and kind of as a magazine
editor and things like that in between.
So lots of things going on.
Sarah McLusky (03:00):
Yeah, really varied background.
I'm looking forward todigging into all of that.
I think I said before we came on thecall, I've been reading through your
profile and I was like, oh, that's verynot necessarily unusual background,
but just really varied and interesting.
So yeah, definitely hear about that.
But let's talk a little bit, firstof all, about the job that you do.
So research development and impact.
(03:20):
Yeah.
Having those two things together seemsquite unusual from my experience.
Laura Breen (03:25):
Yeah, I think it is.
I think and I came acrossit, I, how's that gonna work?
But I think, as I thought about it andas the job evolved, it became really
obvious in that there's this focuson challenge based research coming
through, and a lot of that is aboutboth impact and research development.
So how you weave those things together,how you convene teams from different
(03:46):
disciplines around bids, but are thinkingabout kind of the impact of that,
but how that's written into the bid.
The same with co-productionand things like that.
So I think for university of this scale.
Because we, I think we're oneof the five largest universities
in the country or something.
So I think for that, it reallydoes make sense for those things
to be woven together becauseyou've got the faculty based teams
(04:08):
working on those things, in detail.
But you need somebody to joinit up and say we've got, a bid
going forward in this focus area.
How do we convene teams from scienceand engineering and somebody from
humanities that might know about that?
And how do we bring health in and how dowe bring in cultural institutions, you
know, the comms team, how do we conveneall those people to do this work in a way
(04:29):
that really answers societal challenges?
So yeah, I think it's the scale ofthe university and thinking about
it from that perspective reallydoes bring them together and make
sense when you're doing the job.
I think
Sarah McLusky (04:38):
It, it does make sense actually.
I think saying it's unusual to me, itmakes a lot of sense, 'cause as you
say, it's about having that strategy.
It's about having that sense ofeverything from the original concept of
the research through to the differencethat you want it to make in the world.
So actually joining those two thingsup together makes a lot of sense to me.
(04:58):
It's just that not many otheruniversities are doing it that way.
I think that's.
Laura Breen (05:03):
But know, yeah.
When I saw the job, I was like,what is that gonna involve?
Can I do this?
Like, why is this And it, yeah.
And then it does entirely make sensewhen once you're in the thick of it,
it's oh, of course it's an ecosystem.
It makes perfect sense tobring these things together.
Sarah McLusky (05:17):
Yeah.
But that's a big job though, ifyou've So have, you've got oversight
of that for the whole university.
Laura Breen (05:22):
Yeah, but we have , i'm in a team where we've got research
culture other bits of research policy.
My manager's, the research strategymanager, so we all work together quite
closely on different aspects of those.
And then we've got managers in eachfaculty who are doing, overseeing the
team, so they do the line management.
They do a lot of the kind of stuffon the ground down doing the, how
do we do this as a joint process?
(05:43):
How do we make sure we're not replicatingthings across different teams?
How do we not have three differentprocesses of this and have one
Sarah McLusky (05:50):
yes.
Laura Breen (05:51):
Make sure we're bringing in all the right people.
Sarah McLusky (05:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I imagine that evolveson a day-to-day basis.
Lots of meetings.
Yeah.
Lots of just coordinating,emailing, joining things up.
Laura Breen (06:01):
Yeah.
I think that my manager, again,she's described me like you are glue.
It's it's thinking about whoshould be in the room for this?
Who are we missing?
Who are we forgetting?
Who should have beenbrought into this beginning?
So it's building thoserelationships really across all
different bits of the university.
So.
And knowing who shouldbe there in that project.
Yeah.
Having that awareness.
Sarah McLusky (06:20):
Yeah.
No, it's fantastic that you're, as I say,thinking about it at that top level scale.
So you are, you've said there thatyour background coming to this point
then maybe let tell us a bit aboutyour story of how you, you came
to where you are now and then I'llask the question I was gonna ask.
Laura Breen (06:39):
Yeah.
I came into kind of the world of impactas it is when I was finishing my PhD
at the University of Westminster.
So that was on kind ofceramics slash museology.
So I was working with three contemporaryceramics practitioners in three museums.
And looking at kind of the evolutionof ceramic practice and how it moved
(06:59):
from object to project and some ofthat even brought in REF even then.
So as I was writing this up, I was like,the impact agenda is shaping what people
are producing because people are usedto making objects, have suddenly got
to talk about the impact of their work.
So it's actually shapingartistic practice at the time.
And then the impact wasobviously arrived in the REF.
The team at the university lookedat me and said, you know about
(07:21):
this, your background's in museums.
I'd worked in museums for kindof seven, eight years beforehand.
You are used to reporting to theArts Council, used to talking
about the impact of these things.
Can you help us to deal with this thing?
And we learned what impact in REFwas together and navigated it.
Through that.
Got through that REF andwent from there really.
Sarah McLusky (07:40):
Yeah.
I think it's one thing that's reallyinteresting that I found from, so
a lot of my career I worked in thesciences and then I came into a job
where I was working with arts andhumanities and the way that the different
disciplines conceive of impact andparticipatory research and things like
that, I think is really interesting.
(08:00):
And from what I've seen And it soundslike maybe from your experience as
well, the arts and humanities arealmost doing this stuff already.
It's baked into just the practice ofdoing the arts and humanities stuff,
and so there's a lot that the sciencescan learn from that, which sounds
like exactly what happened to you.
Laura Breen (08:20):
Yeah, I think it is baked in it, it's almost, it's more
complicated as well because it isso threaded through everything.
When you're trying to evidence thingsin that kind of quite linear, REF
way, it's it's through our processes.
It's not just one impact.
It's all these little things that goingoff it's impact on artistic practices.
So things like that come up.
And like I said, the fact that itdoes shape artistic practice is
(08:43):
potentially problematic in some ways.
Are you producing what you would produceas an artist, or are you working in
this way so that you can save for REF?
I've worked with a museum thathas seen an explosion of projects,
reinterpreting museums by people thatmight not have worked in that way before.
I think there's that, but I think yeah,definitely that way of reporting, that
way of thinking about audiences was,is, was more baked into a lot of that
Sarah McLusky (09:06):
stuff.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Definitely.
And that, so it makes sensewhy people look to you to help
tell that story of impact.
Yeah.
What you said there about when itchanges artistic practice that has
been I've seen that come up so manytimes in science and art collaboration
projects where you're sometimes what thescientists want or they think they want.
(09:28):
Yeah.
Is a kind of, almost like a literalinterpretation of the science.
Laura Breen (09:33):
Yeah.
Pretty much.
Yeah.
Sarah McLusky (09:34):
Whereas what the artist wants is to create their artistic
vision inspired by the science.
Yeah.
And sometimes that sense that whatthe scientists want is almost like
some pretty picture that they canput up in the foyer of the lab.
And that's not the way theartist would approach it.
Laura Breen (09:54):
Yeah, and that starting with the end point, which again is
common to the way we work in impact quiteoften is like, where do you want to be?
Quite often it's, you learn thisthrough the exploration, you learn this
through the people you're working with.
It shifts as it goes along, and that'sa kind of different thing to wrap
your head around as well, I think.
Sarah McLusky (10:10):
Oh, it is a different thing to wrap your head around.
There's some funding applications I'vebeen involved in helping with recently
where it, once you start to get theco-production and the participatory
research into it, it's very difficultto say what the end point's gonna be.
Yeah.
You can see what the process isgonna be, but you can't really see
what the end point's going to be.
Yeah.
(10:31):
Yeah.
Oh, so you got into impact that way.
And then you said you, you wentthrough a few different organizations
working in impact type roles.
So is drawing in the research developmentside of things then, is that new
for you in this role you're in now?
Laura Breen (10:45):
Kind of, but I think I always, when I was doing my PhD,
I was always working on researchfunding applications with the team.
When I worked in museums, Iwas working with funding teams.
As I said, it was like a magazineeditor at one point, so I'm used to
writing narrative and crafting a story.
So that was always there as well.
And I always worked on bids with theresearch development teams throughout.
(11:08):
At my last institution I basicallywrote a lot of the public
engagement bids with the academics.
I wrote the impact sections at mostof the institutions I've worked with.
So like I worked reallyclosely with them on that.
So it wasn't, I always did thecostings, did the reading of the
guidance, the, like that side of things.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I was always been involved in teamsconvening people around these things, so
Sarah McLusky (11:29):
Yeah.
So just the first time having itin your job description, maybe.
And then is it the and is it the strategicpart of it as well, I guess the kind of
horizon scanning and that sort of thing?
Laura Breen (11:39):
Yeah, very much that.
And again, I think that'ssomething I've always done.
It's always been the way that my mind hasworked is what's going on in the sector?
What should we be thinkingabout three years down the line?
How is that gonna informwhat we're doing now?
But yeah there's more spacefor that because I'm not line
managing because the teams and thefaculties are doing a lot of that.
Then it's right who can sit back and lookat the way we are doing things and how we
(11:59):
can improve them 'cause they haven't gotthe space to necessarily do that, and it's
Sarah McLusky (12:04):
Yes.
Laura Breen (12:04):
And they've not got that overview.
Sarah McLusky (12:06):
Yes.
Yeah.
When they're in the weeds dayto day, getting all the, yeah.
The paperwork and the costingsand everything like that together,
Laura Breen (12:12):
more specific to their funders.
So yeah, you get to know yourspecific funders, but when it's
cross council or interdisciplinary,it's a different thing so.
Yeah.
Sarah McLusky (12:21):
Yeah.
But that very much, that space, thatI think is where a lot of the most
exciting things are happening, isn't it?
These interdisciplinary spaces.
Are there any particular, I guessthere's some things you maybe can't
talk about if they're in the process,but are there any particular bids that
you've helped pull together that youcan tell us about that you're proud of,
(12:43):
that work came together really well?
Laura Breen (12:45):
Not really I know I tend to sit apart from that.
Our teams have done someamazing bids like this.
So the joined up Center for SustainableTransformations, I think it's called,
so it's about the transition to netzero, but making that inclusive and
the humanities team worked on that, butwith the Young Foundation, with people
from quite different disciplinary areaswith the local authorities, they'll be
(13:07):
working with people out in communitiesto really co-produce this work.
So that was, that's a really niceone, which I've not had much to do
with myself, but it's kind of partof that way of working, which is a.
Sarah McLusky (13:20):
It is these kind of interdisciplinary ones, bringing
lots of different people together andI feel like that's, it feels to me
like the way forwards, but not notnecessarily everybody's on board.
Laura Breen (13:30):
Yeah.
Not for everything.
Yeah.
Sarah McLusky (13:32):
And not for everything.
Exactly there's certainlysome parts of research.
And is that something youever get a bit of pushback on?
People saying, oh, that just doesn't workfor the community, research or, yeah.
Laura Breen (13:46):
So we've got a lot of people doing fundamental research , blue
skies research at the university, andthat's always been one of our strengths.
So we are really clear that not everythingwe have to do has to be challenge based.
This is also an area of strength.
But think about it, thinkabout the impact, think about
how it's, where it might go.
So it's the thinking about it,it's the not, we're gonna push
(14:06):
you all down that route because.
That's not right either.
Some of our biggest discoveries havecome through that fundamental research
Sarah McLusky (14:12):
Yeah, because sometimes you're just fiddling
around with stuff and then younever know where it's gonna end up.
Thinking about maybe then justyour career more broadly, the
sorts of things you do now.
Are there any projects or things you'reinvolved with that really stand out
as things that you're really proud of?
Laura Breen (14:30):
I think it's been culture shifts.
So after working at Westminster,I did a bit of work there as a
research associate working on impact.
But then I moved to the Universityof Huddersfield where I was based
in the school of arts, humanitiesmedia and arts humanities, media,
music, humanities, and media.
And they'd just created that role'cause they saw the value of impact.
(14:52):
So it was the only role in theuniversity that dealt with impact.
There was a kind of a centralrole that was overseeing things.
But in terms of the culturechange, there was that role.
I think in terms of that, I had towork a lot with senior management
'cause I was the only role, eventhough I was faculty based, I was
working with the senior leaders topush for change in areas like that so,
Sarah McLusky (15:12):
mm-hmm.
Laura Breen (15:12):
we were kind of making friends across the university.
We had a, what we called like PE Club.
It's just a few of us are interestedin public engagement in the basement.
We brought together some peopleto talk about this showing the
university it mattered, and thenthey went for the Engage Watermark.
Or they saw when they decided to reviewthe the REF impact case study draft, they
saw that it was working in our faculty andthen other faculty started creating roles.
(15:33):
So I think seeing that kind ofthing come through and then I worked
at Manchester Met in a facultybased impact management role.
And again, there it was.
I think sometimes seeing some of thepeople that were most resistant at the
start when I left with the people thatseemed to be saddest about me leaving.
So I thought, okay, this is,you really didn't wanna work
with me at the beginning.
You're sad that I'm going, I musthave done something right there.
(15:55):
And people, especially like theearly career researchers I'm working
with, seeing them become moreconfident, seeing some of the bids
that we work with come through andwatch, watching their careers grow.
So it's that kind of culture change.
And I think, yeah, where I am now,similarly 'cause I'm joining up people
from across the university, I've had afew people come to me and say I feel seen.
(16:16):
Like I don't feel that my areaof research was seen before, like
somebody I've been working with.
She said, oh, I just went off andwrote a load of stuff the other day.
She said, I've not been able to do it.
But working with you has givenme that kind of freedom and
kind of head space to do it.
And then a very senior leader saidthe other day that like one of the
governance groups that I coordinatesaid was like the best example of like
(16:37):
one university thinking that I've seen.
I thought this is, that's the achievement.
So it's not like I won a massive bid,but in terms of culture change, it
seems to be that kind of coworking.
So it's more that kind of thing I think.
Sarah McLusky (16:49):
Yeah.
But that is when it comes to it andthat, that's one of the challenges,
isn't it, in this kind of work, isactually in the grand scheme of things.
That's the stuff that makesmore of a difference, isn't it?
Yeah.
Is actually, if you can change somebody'sthinking that's more important than
winning some big bid or running someevent or something that you can point
(17:10):
to and say, I did that and it is thischallenge, isn't it, with the way
that we value and assess research.
It's all about thesekind of tick box outputs.
Laura Breen (17:21):
Yeah.
It's what's your KPI for that?
Yeah.
So what have we donethat's worked this year?
And it's I could tell you aboutall these things, but trying to
Sarah McLusky (17:29):
actually put numbers or statistics or Yeah,
even anecdotes around it sometimesis really challenging, isn't it?
But really powerful.
So what do you think is the secret then,to making these kind of culture shifts?
Laura Breen (17:44):
Listening I think, caring.
I think sometimes it's thatyou care about what you do.
Listening to people and that join up,I think not trying to own everything
you can see something that you can'thelp with but somebody else can.
Being able to let go of thingsand go, actually, no, I can't help
you with that, but why don't yougo and work with the policy team?
(18:06):
Why don't you go and work with them?
I think that kind of openness todifferent ways of thinking different
with different expertise, I think.
But it's very relational.
It's about the people and I thinkmy friends said to me find your
people and it's I found my people.
And then through those networks,they've got other networks and
that seems to create the, I dunno,the force to make things happen.
Sarah McLusky (18:26):
Yeah.
Oh it is, there's certainly withall the people I've spoken to on the
podcast, different people have differentapproaches to making things happen,
but it sounds like you've got thatkind of quiet, relational, diplomatic
yeah, way of influencing people,which can be incredibly powerful,
but also unrecognized sometimes.
(18:49):
Yeah.
Sometimes just not, the time and thecare that has to go into that sort of
approach is sometimes not recognized.
Yeah.
Laura Breen (18:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's the, it's tiring as well,isn't it, when you care so much.
I think somebody said to me the otherday is you have to not care so much.
I was like, I can't.
It's in my DNA.
It's like I'd love if I didn't care,but then also I wouldn't be me and
things wouldn't work in the same way.
Sarah McLusky (19:12):
Yeah.
I think maybe that's what we,sometimes I feel like a little
bit of that is what's lacking.
I just said, we did an interviewwhen with I'll mispronounce
her name, Johanna Stadlbauer,
Laura Breen (19:26):
Oh, she's amazing.
Sarah McLusky (19:27):
Yes.
And she was talking about how we needjust academia to be a bit more kind.
Laura Breen (19:31):
Yes.
lately
Sarah McLusky (19:34):
Yeah.
It's so adversarial sometimes,and some in some sectors.
And and particularly with the, thefinancial challenges and things like that.
At the moment the lastthing we need to be is.
Fighting against each other.
It's better.
Yeah.
Fight together.
Laura Breen (19:48):
Yeah.
I think it's that protectingyourself as well, isn't it?
So care, but also realize that whatyou can and can't take on is what
I've learned over recent years.
It w on't be good for me oranyone if I keep taking on.
Sarah McLusky (20:01):
So no, true boundaries.
Yeah.
Incredibly important.
That sounds like we're, it soundslike we're coming now to talk maybe
about some of the things that havebeen a little bit challenging.
So have boundaries been something that'sbeen a bit challenging for you at times?
Laura Breen (20:13):
Yeah, I think so.
I think it's interesting.
Yeah, I think there's probably two thingschallenge wise that really stick out.
So I think universities, theyare strange places, aren't they?
'cause they're very strange places.
You can have decades of experiencein your area, but then have to win
the agreement of, or defer to peoplethat have got extensive academic
experience, but maybe not in your area.
(20:35):
And they're not usually the most senior.
I find, like I've got reallygood relationships with our
senior people who respect that.
But there can be other people that don't.
So that could be frustrating becauseyou can see it holding things back, or
you can see things don't work as well asthey can, or they could do, or you can
see that two years down the line, you'redoing what you suggested two years ago.
Yeah.
(20:55):
Was needed.
So I think that it can be yeah, livingwith that and learning to live with the
fact that you can't control everything.
I think, especially in a centralizedrole like me, I was like, that's
not working, that's not working.
It's what can you feasibly do?
You can steer, you can guide, but youcan't go in and fix everything yourself.
So I think, yeah, that bit.
I think the second onewould be value clashes.
So again, over the past fewyears I've probably learned that,
(21:19):
probably forever, I'm reallydriven by my values and behaviors.
I think when I've been in jobinterviews, I remember someone saying
to me that was an academic answer.
When you're talking about thereasons that we do things, I'm not
thinking maybe in terms of how a lotof professional services people in
think why should we bring in income?
Why should we do all these things?
And I default to well it'sour public duty, you gotta
(21:41):
make the world a better place.
They're like, oh, this is interesting.
And I think my current manageractually said to me, manager,
that was a very ethical answer.
So it's so that comes through a lotand I think, yeah, I've also been
called like a canary in the coalmine is something someone said.
I'm very sensitive to what's going on.
So if there are microaggressions andthat kind of, I was reading an article
(22:01):
about it the other day about incivility,that kind of subtle level of unkindness.
I'm, I can't, I can't work withinthat I found myself having to, trying
to change those situations first ofall, but then having to admit when I'm
not gonna change that is bigger thanme to, to move course, I think it's.
Understanding that, and I'mthinking yeah I can't fix this.
(22:24):
No, this is bigger than me.
So understanding thosethings, which, I'm lucky.
I've got a very nice team now.
I've worked with many wonderful teams.
But I think it's learningabout yourself, isn't it?
What are your lines in the sand?
What's.
Sarah McLusky (22:38):
Yeah.
I think the older I get, themore I realize that our careers
and, it's all just a huge longprocess of self discovery.
Yeah.
Isn't it?
It's about learning, what you're goodat, what you're not so good at, what you
can tolerate, what you can't tolerate,where your boundaries are, where's the
line that, that, if that's crossed,
Laura Breen (22:58):
yeah.
Sarah McLusky (22:58):
It's not gonna be good for anybody.
Yeah.
Laura Breen (23:01):
Yeah.
I am.
Yeah.
I think, okay.
My manager said when I came inthe room she said, oh we've got
an empath, but in a nice way.
She's we've got an empath.
And I was like, really?
How have you got thatfrom me in a few weeks?
But I think, yeah, I probably ammore sensitive to some of these
things than other people, but usuallyit plays out a bit down the line
when things start falling apart.
It's oh yeah.
Yes it's spotting those things, butyeah, knowing, again, boundaries.
(23:24):
Boundaries, very important.
Sarah McLusky (23:25):
It sounds like as well as being empathetic, you're
also very intuitive as well, solike you say, maybe recognizing
almost like that gut feeling of this isthe way things are going, which I can
see is useful both from the relationalpoint of view, but also that kind
of horizon scanning, for your job.
Like intuition about whichpeople will work well together.
(23:49):
Yeah.
Or which projects aregonna be like a good fit.
Which ones are gonna be the, where'sthe world going, where's that gonna be?
Laura Breen (23:56):
Yeah.
That does happen.
Like we pair, we had a lovelyproject the other week where we
were pairing, we've been pairing,academics with kind of people we've
got relationships within the community.
Working with a social responsibilityteam, just sending 'em out and
they've gone for three brews together.
I gone for, three chats together.
Just get to know each other and seewhat learning there is and if there's
learning from the university about that.
(24:16):
And I did the pairing for that kindknowing things about them, speaking
to people who knew them, readingabout their backgrounds and quite
a lot of come back and said, how?
How did you do that?
Like we really hit it off and Iwas like, I don't really know,
but it must be that kind ofintuition about Yeah, there's
very impact mindset, isn't it?
I think it's, I know like I'm an arthistorian, I guess cultural historian
(24:39):
by background and it's that picking upevidence, piecing things together it's,
I think it comes with that as well.
Sarah McLusky (24:45):
Yeah, potentially.
I think it's, I think as well,I wonder if it's with the arts
background that often in the arts,it's about intangible stuff, isn't it?
Yeah.
It's about how does thisart affect how you feel?
Yes.
Or that sort of thing, or thestory that it's trying to tell.
Not in a literal sense, yeah.
But in that more kind ofsensory intuitive kind of way.
Laura Breen (25:09):
Probably with museums as well, I think, 'cause museum
audiences are, you can break themdown, but they're potentially everyone.
So you've got to think aboutwhat's gonna appeal to this person?
How are they gonna learn?
Are they gonna learnanything about history?
Do we care?
Or are they gonna learn from theirgranddad, talking to 'em about
their past as they go around?
So I think it's some of that as well.
Sarah McLusky (25:26):
Yeah.
And just recognizing that differentpeople are different and need different
things and different levels ofsupport and all that sort of stuff.
Yeah.
Oh, really interesting.
I love thinking about this stuff.
And so I think, as I like to ask my guestsif they had a magic wand, what would they
change about the world that they work in?
What would you like touse your magic wand for?
Laura Breen (25:46):
Blimey so you, yeah, you mentioned the adversarial stuff.
So that would be one.
I hate the fact that everything becomesa competition between universities and
things like that, especially aroundkind public engagement and anything that
becomes a hot topic for REF or whereversuddenly you find yourself competing.
But I think for me it's, it is arelational space, so I think it would be
(26:07):
more funding, more time, more support forthe stages, either side of the research.
So create time and space to co-createresearch questions, but also to
sit in that space and get to knowdifferent groups, different individuals
that we might do research with.
Find those commonalitieswithout it being transactional.
On, same on the other side, timeto maintain those relationships and
(26:28):
evolve them without just thinking aboutthe next funding bid or the project.
So I think of it as like creatingspace for what you might have water
cooler moments, if you were at aconference, if you worked in an office
together, which you don't get withthese kind of groups, but something
like that kind of bring you togetherand that creative relational spaces.
And not everything have tobe in transactional because.
(26:49):
I've seen that these seem to be theplaces that are actually most productive.
But again, you can't put a price on them.
You can't say no can, becausethis will lead to this.
But quite often they do.
Sarah McLusky (26:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, and it is it, and it's, I agree,it's so valuable, but because it's slow.
Time consuming and there isn't alwaysa clear, definite outcome for it,
it can feel hard to prioritize.
Yeah.
But I've seen that.
Yeah.
(27:19):
When people do prioritizeit, it moves mountains.
Yeah.
Just getting to know people on a level aspeople can just be just just like you say
about people feeling seen and understood.
Laura Breen (27:34):
And build that trust and the things that come up when you've not got
an agenda and you find some commonalitythat you haven't even thought about.
So yeah, you can never plan for that.
If you've got a really strictagenda, it's, you're not
gonna find those things out.
Sarah McLusky (27:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
You need that space andtime to talk about things.
And it's one of the challenges now,isn't it, with things being online.
There are huge benefits, obviously.
Yeah.
With things being online, butI think we lose that space for
casual conversation, don't we?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, I think we're moving.
(28:06):
I dunno, things are movingand changing, aren't they?
All the time.
But I think people are starting torealize the downsides of living online.
Laura Breen (28:14):
Yeah.
And I think there's slightly more spacefor that kind of test and fail thing.
Like we're trying to do bits of it, butpeople seem to be moving a bit more.
It's hard in this financial climate,but, allowing a bit of space for
risk in kind of what happens ifyou have those failed spaces.
It's,
Sarah McLusky (28:34):
yeah.
Yeah.
No, really such, again, a kind thing to dofor people if you can create those spaces.
Yeah.
Oh, lovely.
We should think aboutwrapping up our conversation.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And and I think that idea of makingthings a little bit kinder is a lovely
place, A little bit kinder, a little bitslower, is a lovely place to leave it.
(28:55):
And if people want to get in touch withyou, find out more about what you do,
where is the best place to find you?
Laura Breen (29:01):
Usually on LinkedIn, I think is, it's the easiest place to, to find
me otherwise on the research strategypages at the, on the university website.
It's linked to me there as well.
Sarah McLusky (29:10):
Excellent.
We'll get links to those andput them in the show notes.
Definitely.
Yeah.
The LinkedIn is where we connectedand you're certainly very active
there, so good place to comeand see what you're up to.
Oh, thank you so much for taking thetime to come along and share your
story and, it's been so interesting.
Thank you.
Laura Breen (29:27):
Lovely to meet you.
Sarah McLusky (29:31):
Thanks for listening to Research Adjacent.
If you're listening in a podcast app,please check you're subscribed and then
use the links in the episode descriptionto find full show notes and to follow
the podcast on LinkedIn or Instagram.
You can also find all the links and otherepisodes at www.researchadjacent.com.
Research Adjacent is presentedand produced by Sarah McLusky,
(29:51):
and the theme music is byLemon Music Studios on Pixabay.
And you, yes you, get a big goldstar for listening right to the end.
See you next time.
We've been pairing academics with people within the community.
And I did the pairing for that andquite a lot of come back and said, how?
How did you do that?
Like we really hit it off and Iwas like, I don't really know, but
it must be that kind of intuition.
I hate the fact that everythingbecomes a competition between
universities, especially around publicengagement and anything that becomes
(00:22):
a hot topic for REF or whereversuddenly you find yourself competing.
A very senior leader said the other daythat one of the governance groups that I
coordinate said was the best example ofone university thinking that I've seen.
Sarah McLusky (00:37):
Hello there.
I'm Sarah McLusky andthis is Research Adjacent.
Each episode I talk to amazing researchadjacent professionals about what
they do and why it makes a difference.
Keep listening to find out why wethink the research adjacent space
is where the real magic happens.
(00:58):
Hello and welcome along to episode 81,where I am joined by guest Laura Breen.
Laura is research development and impactmanager at the University of Manchester.
Her role is a cross University one.
She helps to bring togetherinterdisciplinary teams, connects
researchers with community partners, andprioritizes collaboration over competition
(01:18):
an approach, which has been described bysenior leaders as one university thinking.
Laura found her way to this workvia the museums sector and a PhD in
ceramics where she wrestled with whatimpact might look like for the arts.
Now, working across disciplines, shestill believes in convening what she
calls creative relational spaces andleads with empathy and intuition.
(01:40):
We talk about creating culturechange, why big challenges need
multi-partner interdisciplinary teamsand giving relationships time to grow.
If you're listening to this soon afterits release, you'll have a chance to
meet Laura in person at the ImpactIgnite Conference in Southampton next
week, where she will be talking aboutsupporting participatory research.
I'm gonna be there too, recordinga live podcast interview that
(02:02):
will be broadcast in early 2026.
So if you're going, make surethat you come along and say
hello to both me and Laura.
But for now, let's listenon to hear Laura's story.
Welcome along to the podcast, Laura.
It is absolutely brilliant to meet youand to hear all about your story today.
So I wonder if we could beginjust by giving the listeners a
(02:24):
little bit of an introduction toyou, who you are and what you do.
Laura Breen (02:28):
Yeah.
Thanks.
It was lovely to meet you finally.
I feel like I know you through allthese podcasts and all the other
people that we've got in common.
So yeah, at the moment I'm the researchdevelopment and impact manager in
the central research strategy teamat the University of Manchester.
Kind of before that, I've got abackground in having worked in impact.
I think this is my fourth institution.
Different levels.
(02:48):
Different roles in impact, and aresearch and practice background
in museums, and worked in projectmanagement and kind of as a magazine
editor and things like that in between.
So lots of things going on.
Sarah McLusky (03:00):
Yeah, really varied background.
I'm looking forward todigging into all of that.
I think I said before we came on thecall, I've been reading through your
profile and I was like, oh, that's verynot necessarily unusual background,
but just really varied and interesting.
So yeah, definitely hear about that.
But let's talk a little bit, firstof all, about the job that you do.
So research development and impact.
(03:20):
Yeah.
Having those two things together seemsquite unusual from my experience.
Laura Breen (03:25):
Yeah, I think it is.
I think and I came acrossit, I, how's that gonna work?
But I think, as I thought about it andas the job evolved, it became really
obvious in that there's this focuson challenge based research coming
through, and a lot of that is aboutboth impact and research development.
So how you weave those things together,how you convene teams from different
(03:46):
disciplines around bids, but are thinkingabout kind of the impact of that,
but how that's written into the bid.
The same with co-productionand things like that.
So I think for university of this scale.
Because we, I think we're oneof the five largest universities
in the country or something.
So I think for that, it reallydoes make sense for those things
to be woven together becauseyou've got the faculty based teams
(04:08):
working on those things, in detail.
But you need somebody to joinit up and say we've got, a bid
going forward in this focus area.
How do we convene teams from scienceand engineering and somebody from
humanities that might know about that?
And how do we bring health in and how dowe bring in cultural institutions, you
know, the comms team, how do we conveneall those people to do this work in a way
(04:29):
that really answers societal challenges?
So yeah, I think it's the scale ofthe university and thinking about
it from that perspective reallydoes bring them together and make
sense when you're doing the job.
I think
Sarah McLusky (04:38):
It, it does make sense actually.
I think saying it's unusual to me, itmakes a lot of sense, 'cause as you
say, it's about having that strategy.
It's about having that sense ofeverything from the original concept of
the research through to the differencethat you want it to make in the world.
So actually joining those two thingsup together makes a lot of sense to me.
(04:58):
It's just that not many otheruniversities are doing it that way.
I think that's.
Laura Breen (05:03):
But know, yeah.
When I saw the job, I was like,what is that gonna involve?
Can I do this?
Like, why is this And it, yeah.
And then it does entirely make sensewhen once you're in the thick of it,
it's oh, of course it's an ecosystem.
It makes perfect sense tobring these things together.
Sarah McLusky (05:17):
Yeah.
But that's a big job though, ifyou've So have, you've got oversight
of that for the whole university.
Laura Breen (05:22):
Yeah, but we have , i'm in a team where we've got research
culture other bits of research policy.
My manager's, the research strategymanager, so we all work together quite
closely on different aspects of those.
And then we've got managers in eachfaculty who are doing, overseeing the
team, so they do the line management.
They do a lot of the kind of stuffon the ground down doing the, how
do we do this as a joint process?
(05:43):
How do we make sure we're not replicatingthings across different teams?
How do we not have three differentprocesses of this and have one
Sarah McLusky (05:50):
yes.
Laura Breen (05:51):
Make sure we're bringing in all the right people.
Sarah McLusky (05:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I imagine that evolveson a day-to-day basis.
Lots of meetings.
Yeah.
Lots of just coordinating,emailing, joining things up.
Laura Breen (06:01):
Yeah.
I think that my manager, again,she's described me like you are glue.
It's it's thinking about whoshould be in the room for this?
Who are we missing?
Who are we forgetting?
Who should have beenbrought into this beginning?
So it's building thoserelationships really across all
different bits of the university.
So.
And knowing who shouldbe there in that project.
Yeah.
Having that awareness.
Sarah McLusky (06:20):
Yeah.
No, it's fantastic that you're, as I say,thinking about it at that top level scale.
So you are, you've said there thatyour background coming to this point
then maybe let tell us a bit aboutyour story of how you, you came
to where you are now and then I'llask the question I was gonna ask.
Laura Breen (06:39):
Yeah.
I came into kind of the world of impactas it is when I was finishing my PhD
at the University of Westminster.
So that was on kind ofceramics slash museology.
So I was working with three contemporaryceramics practitioners in three museums.
And looking at kind of the evolutionof ceramic practice and how it moved
(06:59):
from object to project and some ofthat even brought in REF even then.
So as I was writing this up, I was like,the impact agenda is shaping what people
are producing because people are usedto making objects, have suddenly got
to talk about the impact of their work.
So it's actually shapingartistic practice at the time.
And then the impact wasobviously arrived in the REF.
The team at the university lookedat me and said, you know about
(07:21):
this, your background's in museums.
I'd worked in museums for kindof seven, eight years beforehand.
You are used to reporting to theArts Council, used to talking
about the impact of these things.
Can you help us to deal with this thing?
And we learned what impact in REFwas together and navigated it.
Through that.
Got through that REF andwent from there really.
Sarah McLusky (07:40):
Yeah.
I think it's one thing that's reallyinteresting that I found from, so
a lot of my career I worked in thesciences and then I came into a job
where I was working with arts andhumanities and the way that the different
disciplines conceive of impact andparticipatory research and things like
that, I think is really interesting.
(08:00):
And from what I've seen And it soundslike maybe from your experience as
well, the arts and humanities arealmost doing this stuff already.
It's baked into just the practice ofdoing the arts and humanities stuff,
and so there's a lot that the sciencescan learn from that, which sounds
like exactly what happened to you.
Laura Breen (08:20):
Yeah, I think it is baked in it, it's almost, it's more
complicated as well because it isso threaded through everything.
When you're trying to evidence thingsin that kind of quite linear, REF
way, it's it's through our processes.
It's not just one impact.
It's all these little things that goingoff it's impact on artistic practices.
So things like that come up.
And like I said, the fact that itdoes shape artistic practice is
(08:43):
potentially problematic in some ways.
Are you producing what you would produceas an artist, or are you working in
this way so that you can save for REF?
I've worked with a museum thathas seen an explosion of projects,
reinterpreting museums by people thatmight not have worked in that way before.
I think there's that, but I think yeah,definitely that way of reporting, that
way of thinking about audiences was,is, was more baked into a lot of that
Sarah McLusky (09:06):
stuff.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Definitely.
And that, so it makes sensewhy people look to you to help
tell that story of impact.
Yeah.
What you said there about when itchanges artistic practice that has
been I've seen that come up so manytimes in science and art collaboration
projects where you're sometimes what thescientists want or they think they want.
(09:28):
Yeah.
Is a kind of, almost like a literalinterpretation of the science.
Laura Breen (09:33):
Yeah.
Pretty much.
Yeah.
Sarah McLusky (09:34):
Whereas what the artist wants is to create their artistic
vision inspired by the science.
Yeah.
And sometimes that sense that whatthe scientists want is almost like
some pretty picture that they canput up in the foyer of the lab.
And that's not the way theartist would approach it.
Laura Breen (09:54):
Yeah, and that starting with the end point, which again is
common to the way we work in impact quiteoften is like, where do you want to be?
Quite often it's, you learn thisthrough the exploration, you learn this
through the people you're working with.
It shifts as it goes along, and that'sa kind of different thing to wrap
your head around as well, I think.
Sarah McLusky (10:10):
Oh, it is a different thing to wrap your head around.
There's some funding applications I'vebeen involved in helping with recently
where it, once you start to get theco-production and the participatory
research into it, it's very difficultto say what the end point's gonna be.
Yeah.
You can see what the process isgonna be, but you can't really see
what the end point's going to be.
Yeah.
(10:31):
Yeah.
Oh, so you got into impact that way.
And then you said you, you wentthrough a few different organizations
working in impact type roles.
So is drawing in the research developmentside of things then, is that new
for you in this role you're in now?
Laura Breen (10:45):
Kind of, but I think I always, when I was doing my PhD,
I was always working on researchfunding applications with the team.
When I worked in museums, Iwas working with funding teams.
As I said, it was like a magazineeditor at one point, so I'm used to
writing narrative and crafting a story.
So that was always there as well.
And I always worked on bids with theresearch development teams throughout.
(11:08):
At my last institution I basicallywrote a lot of the public
engagement bids with the academics.
I wrote the impact sections at mostof the institutions I've worked with.
So like I worked reallyclosely with them on that.
So it wasn't, I always did thecostings, did the reading of the
guidance, the, like that side of things.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I was always been involved in teamsconvening people around these things, so
Sarah McLusky (11:29):
Yeah.
So just the first time having itin your job description, maybe.
And then is it the and is it the strategicpart of it as well, I guess the kind of
horizon scanning and that sort of thing?
Laura Breen (11:39):
Yeah, very much that.
And again, I think that'ssomething I've always done.
It's always been the way that my mind hasworked is what's going on in the sector?
What should we be thinkingabout three years down the line?
How is that gonna informwhat we're doing now?
But yeah there's more spacefor that because I'm not line
managing because the teams and thefaculties are doing a lot of that.
Then it's right who can sit back and lookat the way we are doing things and how we
(11:59):
can improve them 'cause they haven't gotthe space to necessarily do that, and it's
Sarah McLusky (12:04):
Yes.
Laura Breen (12:04):
And they've not got that overview.
Sarah McLusky (12:06):
Yes.
Yeah.
When they're in the weeds dayto day, getting all the, yeah.
The paperwork and the costingsand everything like that together,
Laura Breen (12:12):
more specific to their funders.
So yeah, you get to know yourspecific funders, but when it's
cross council or interdisciplinary,it's a different thing so.
Yeah.
Sarah McLusky (12:21):
Yeah.
But that very much, that space, thatI think is where a lot of the most
exciting things are happening, isn't it?
These interdisciplinary spaces.
Are there any particular, I guessthere's some things you maybe can't
talk about if they're in the process,but are there any particular bids that
you've helped pull together that youcan tell us about that you're proud of,
(12:43):
that work came together really well?
Laura Breen (12:45):
Not really I know I tend to sit apart from that.
Our teams have done someamazing bids like this.
So the joined up Center for SustainableTransformations, I think it's called,
so it's about the transition to netzero, but making that inclusive and
the humanities team worked on that, butwith the Young Foundation, with people
from quite different disciplinary areaswith the local authorities, they'll be
(13:07):
working with people out in communitiesto really co-produce this work.
So that was, that's a really niceone, which I've not had much to do
with myself, but it's kind of partof that way of working, which is a.
Sarah McLusky (13:20):
It is these kind of interdisciplinary ones, bringing
lots of different people together andI feel like that's, it feels to me
like the way forwards, but not notnecessarily everybody's on board.
Laura Breen (13:30):
Yeah.
Not for everything.
Yeah.
Sarah McLusky (13:32):
And not for everything.
Exactly there's certainlysome parts of research.
And is that something youever get a bit of pushback on?
People saying, oh, that just doesn't workfor the community, research or, yeah.
Laura Breen (13:46):
So we've got a lot of people doing fundamental research , blue
skies research at the university, andthat's always been one of our strengths.
So we are really clear that not everythingwe have to do has to be challenge based.
This is also an area of strength.
But think about it, thinkabout the impact, think about
how it's, where it might go.
So it's the thinking about it,it's the not, we're gonna push
(14:06):
you all down that route because.
That's not right either.
Some of our biggest discoveries havecome through that fundamental research
Sarah McLusky (14:12):
Yeah, because sometimes you're just fiddling
around with stuff and then younever know where it's gonna end up.
Thinking about maybe then justyour career more broadly, the
sorts of things you do now.
Are there any projects or things you'reinvolved with that really stand out
as things that you're really proud of?
Laura Breen (14:30):
I think it's been culture shifts.
So after working at Westminster,I did a bit of work there as a
research associate working on impact.
But then I moved to the Universityof Huddersfield where I was based
in the school of arts, humanitiesmedia and arts humanities, media,
music, humanities, and media.
And they'd just created that role'cause they saw the value of impact.
(14:52):
So it was the only role in theuniversity that dealt with impact.
There was a kind of a centralrole that was overseeing things.
But in terms of the culturechange, there was that role.
I think in terms of that, I had towork a lot with senior management
'cause I was the only role, eventhough I was faculty based, I was
working with the senior leaders topush for change in areas like that so,
Sarah McLusky (15:12):
mm-hmm.
Laura Breen (15:12):
we were kind of making friends across the university.
We had a, what we called like PE Club.
It's just a few of us are interestedin public engagement in the basement.
We brought together some peopleto talk about this showing the
university it mattered, and thenthey went for the Engage Watermark.
Or they saw when they decided to reviewthe the REF impact case study draft, they
saw that it was working in our faculty andthen other faculty started creating roles.
(15:33):
So I think seeing that kind ofthing come through and then I worked
at Manchester Met in a facultybased impact management role.
And again, there it was.
I think sometimes seeing some of thepeople that were most resistant at the
start when I left with the people thatseemed to be saddest about me leaving.
So I thought, okay, this is,you really didn't wanna work
with me at the beginning.
You're sad that I'm going, I musthave done something right there.
(15:55):
And people, especially like theearly career researchers I'm working
with, seeing them become moreconfident, seeing some of the bids
that we work with come through andwatch, watching their careers grow.
So it's that kind of culture change.
And I think, yeah, where I am now,similarly 'cause I'm joining up people
from across the university, I've had afew people come to me and say I feel seen.
(16:16):
Like I don't feel that my areaof research was seen before, like
somebody I've been working with.
She said, oh, I just went off andwrote a load of stuff the other day.
She said, I've not been able to do it.
But working with you has givenme that kind of freedom and
kind of head space to do it.
And then a very senior leader saidthe other day that like one of the
governance groups that I coordinatesaid was like the best example of like
(16:37):
one university thinking that I've seen.
I thought this is, that's the achievement.
So it's not like I won a massive bid,but in terms of culture change, it
seems to be that kind of coworking.
So it's more that kind of thing I think.
Sarah McLusky (16:49):
Yeah.
But that is when it comes to it andthat, that's one of the challenges,
isn't it, in this kind of work, isactually in the grand scheme of things.
That's the stuff that makesmore of a difference, isn't it?
Yeah.
Is actually, if you can change somebody'sthinking that's more important than
winning some big bid or running someevent or something that you can point
(17:10):
to and say, I did that and it is thischallenge, isn't it, with the way
that we value and assess research.
It's all about thesekind of tick box outputs.
Laura Breen (17:21):
Yeah.
It's what's your KPI for that?
Yeah.
So what have we donethat's worked this year?
And it's I could tell you aboutall these things, but trying to
Sarah McLusky (17:29):
actually put numbers or statistics or Yeah,
even anecdotes around it sometimesis really challenging, isn't it?
But really powerful.
So what do you think is the secret then,to making these kind of culture shifts?
Laura Breen (17:44):
Listening I think, caring.
I think sometimes it's thatyou care about what you do.
Listening to people and that join up,I think not trying to own everything
you can see something that you can'thelp with but somebody else can.
Being able to let go of thingsand go, actually, no, I can't help
you with that, but why don't yougo and work with the policy team?
(18:06):
Why don't you go and work with them?
I think that kind of openness todifferent ways of thinking different
with different expertise, I think.
But it's very relational.
It's about the people and I thinkmy friends said to me find your
people and it's I found my people.
And then through those networks,they've got other networks and
that seems to create the, I dunno,the force to make things happen.
Sarah McLusky (18:26):
Yeah.
Oh it is, there's certainly withall the people I've spoken to on the
podcast, different people have differentapproaches to making things happen,
but it sounds like you've got thatkind of quiet, relational, diplomatic
yeah, way of influencing people,which can be incredibly powerful,
but also unrecognized sometimes.
(18:49):
Yeah.
Sometimes just not, the time and thecare that has to go into that sort of
approach is sometimes not recognized.
Yeah.
Laura Breen (18:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's the, it's tiring as well,isn't it, when you care so much.
I think somebody said to me the otherday is you have to not care so much.
I was like, I can't.
It's in my DNA.
It's like I'd love if I didn't care,but then also I wouldn't be me and
things wouldn't work in the same way.
Sarah McLusky (19:12):
Yeah.
I think maybe that's what we,sometimes I feel like a little
bit of that is what's lacking.
I just said, we did an interviewwhen with I'll mispronounce
her name, Johanna Stadlbauer,
Laura Breen (19:26):
Oh, she's amazing.
Sarah McLusky (19:27):
Yes.
And she was talking about how we needjust academia to be a bit more kind.
Laura Breen (19:31):
Yes.
lately
Sarah McLusky (19:34):
Yeah.
It's so adversarial sometimes,and some in some sectors.
And and particularly with the, thefinancial challenges and things like that.
At the moment the lastthing we need to be is.
Fighting against each other.
It's better.
Yeah.
Fight together.
Laura Breen (19:48):
Yeah.
I think it's that protectingyourself as well, isn't it?
So care, but also realize that whatyou can and can't take on is what
I've learned over recent years.
It w on't be good for me oranyone if I keep taking on.
Sarah McLusky (20:01):
So no, true boundaries.
Yeah.
Incredibly important.
That sounds like we're, it soundslike we're coming now to talk maybe
about some of the things that havebeen a little bit challenging.
So have boundaries been something that'sbeen a bit challenging for you at times?
Laura Breen (20:13):
Yeah, I think so.
I think it's interesting.
Yeah, I think there's probably two thingschallenge wise that really stick out.
So I think universities, theyare strange places, aren't they?
'cause they're very strange places.
You can have decades of experiencein your area, but then have to win
the agreement of, or defer to peoplethat have got extensive academic
experience, but maybe not in your area.
(20:35):
And they're not usually the most senior.
I find, like I've got reallygood relationships with our
senior people who respect that.
But there can be other people that don't.
So that could be frustrating becauseyou can see it holding things back, or
you can see things don't work as well asthey can, or they could do, or you can
see that two years down the line, you'redoing what you suggested two years ago.
Yeah.
(20:55):
Was needed.
So I think that it can be yeah, livingwith that and learning to live with the
fact that you can't control everything.
I think, especially in a centralizedrole like me, I was like, that's
not working, that's not working.
It's what can you feasibly do?
You can steer, you can guide, but youcan't go in and fix everything yourself.
So I think, yeah, that bit.
I think the second onewould be value clashes.
So again, over the past fewyears I've probably learned that,
(21:19):
probably forever, I'm reallydriven by my values and behaviors.
I think when I've been in jobinterviews, I remember someone saying
to me that was an academic answer.
When you're talking about thereasons that we do things, I'm not
thinking maybe in terms of how a lotof professional services people in
think why should we bring in income?
Why should we do all these things?
And I default to well it'sour public duty, you gotta
(21:41):
make the world a better place.
They're like, oh, this is interesting.
And I think my current manageractually said to me, manager,
that was a very ethical answer.
So it's so that comes through a lotand I think, yeah, I've also been
called like a canary in the coalmine is something someone said.
I'm very sensitive to what's going on.
So if there are microaggressions andthat kind of, I was reading an article
(22:01):
about it the other day about incivility,that kind of subtle level of unkindness.
I'm, I can't, I can't work withinthat I found myself having to, trying
to change those situations first ofall, but then having to admit when I'm
not gonna change that is bigger thanme to, to move course, I think it's.
Understanding that, and I'mthinking yeah I can't fix this.
(22:24):
No, this is bigger than me.
So understanding thosethings, which, I'm lucky.
I've got a very nice team now.
I've worked with many wonderful teams.
But I think it's learningabout yourself, isn't it?
What are your lines in the sand?
What's.
Sarah McLusky (22:38):
Yeah.
I think the older I get, themore I realize that our careers
and, it's all just a huge longprocess of self discovery.
Yeah.
Isn't it?
It's about learning, what you're goodat, what you're not so good at, what you
can tolerate, what you can't tolerate,where your boundaries are, where's the
line that, that, if that's crossed,
Laura Breen (22:58):
yeah.
Sarah McLusky (22:58):
It's not gonna be good for anybody.
Yeah.
Laura Breen (23:01):
Yeah.
I am.
Yeah.
I think, okay.
My manager said when I came inthe room she said, oh we've got
an empath, but in a nice way.
She's we've got an empath.
And I was like, really?
How have you got thatfrom me in a few weeks?
But I think, yeah, I probably ammore sensitive to some of these
things than other people, but usuallyit plays out a bit down the line
when things start falling apart.
It's oh yeah.
Yes it's spotting those things, butyeah, knowing, again, boundaries.
(23:24):
Boundaries, very important.
Sarah McLusky (23:25):
It sounds like as well as being empathetic, you're
also very intuitive as well, solike you say, maybe recognizing
almost like that gut feeling of this isthe way things are going, which I can
see is useful both from the relationalpoint of view, but also that kind
of horizon scanning, for your job.
Like intuition about whichpeople will work well together.
(23:49):
Yeah.
Or which projects aregonna be like a good fit.
Which ones are gonna be the, where'sthe world going, where's that gonna be?
Laura Breen (23:56):
Yeah.
That does happen.
Like we pair, we had a lovelyproject the other week where we
were pairing, we've been pairing,academics with kind of people we've
got relationships within the community.
Working with a social responsibilityteam, just sending 'em out and
they've gone for three brews together.
I gone for, three chats together.
Just get to know each other and seewhat learning there is and if there's
learning from the university about that.
(24:16):
And I did the pairing for that kindknowing things about them, speaking
to people who knew them, readingabout their backgrounds and quite
a lot of come back and said, how?
How did you do that?
Like we really hit it off and Iwas like, I don't really know,
but it must be that kind ofintuition about Yeah, there's
very impact mindset, isn't it?
I think it's, I know like I'm an arthistorian, I guess cultural historian
(24:39):
by background and it's that picking upevidence, piecing things together it's,
I think it comes with that as well.
Sarah McLusky (24:45):
Yeah, potentially.
I think it's, I think as well,I wonder if it's with the arts
background that often in the arts,it's about intangible stuff, isn't it?
Yeah.
It's about how does thisart affect how you feel?
Yes.
Or that sort of thing, or thestory that it's trying to tell.
Not in a literal sense, yeah.
But in that more kind ofsensory intuitive kind of way.
Laura Breen (25:09):
Probably with museums as well, I think, 'cause museum
audiences are, you can break themdown, but they're potentially everyone.
So you've got to think aboutwhat's gonna appeal to this person?
How are they gonna learn?
Are they gonna learnanything about history?
Do we care?
Or are they gonna learn from theirgranddad, talking to 'em about
their past as they go around?
So I think it's some of that as well.
Sarah McLusky (25:26):
Yeah.
And just recognizing that differentpeople are different and need different
things and different levels ofsupport and all that sort of stuff.
Yeah.
Oh, really interesting.
I love thinking about this stuff.
And so I think, as I like to ask my guestsif they had a magic wand, what would they
change about the world that they work in?
What would you like touse your magic wand for?
Laura Breen (25:46):
Blimey so you, yeah, you mentioned the adversarial stuff.
So that would be one.
I hate the fact that everything becomesa competition between universities and
things like that, especially aroundkind public engagement and anything that
becomes a hot topic for REF or whereversuddenly you find yourself competing.
But I think for me it's, it is arelational space, so I think it would be
(26:07):
more funding, more time, more support forthe stages, either side of the research.
So create time and space to co-createresearch questions, but also to
sit in that space and get to knowdifferent groups, different individuals
that we might do research with.
Find those commonalitieswithout it being transactional.
On, same on the other side, timeto maintain those relationships and
(26:28):
evolve them without just thinking aboutthe next funding bid or the project.
So I think of it as like creatingspace for what you might have water
cooler moments, if you were at aconference, if you worked in an office
together, which you don't get withthese kind of groups, but something
like that kind of bring you togetherand that creative relational spaces.
And not everything have tobe in transactional because.
(26:49):
I've seen that these seem to be theplaces that are actually most productive.
But again, you can't put a price on them.
You can't say no can, becausethis will lead to this.
But quite often they do.
Sarah McLusky (26:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, and it is it, and it's, I agree,it's so valuable, but because it's slow.
Time consuming and there isn't alwaysa clear, definite outcome for it,
it can feel hard to prioritize.
Yeah.
But I've seen that.
Yeah.
(27:19):
When people do prioritizeit, it moves mountains.
Yeah.
Just getting to know people on a level aspeople can just be just just like you say
about people feeling seen and understood.
Laura Breen (27:34):
And build that trust and the things that come up when you've not got
an agenda and you find some commonalitythat you haven't even thought about.
So yeah, you can never plan for that.
If you've got a really strictagenda, it's, you're not
gonna find those things out.
Sarah McLusky (27:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
You need that space andtime to talk about things.
And it's one of the challenges now,isn't it, with things being online.
There are huge benefits, obviously.
Yeah.
With things being online, butI think we lose that space for
casual conversation, don't we?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, I think we're moving.
(28:06):
I dunno, things are movingand changing, aren't they?
All the time.
But I think people are starting torealize the downsides of living online.
Laura Breen (28:14):
Yeah.
And I think there's slightly more spacefor that kind of test and fail thing.
Like we're trying to do bits of it, butpeople seem to be moving a bit more.
It's hard in this financial climate,but, allowing a bit of space for
risk in kind of what happens ifyou have those failed spaces.
It's,
Sarah McLusky (28:34):
yeah.
Yeah.
No, really such, again, a kind thing to dofor people if you can create those spaces.
Yeah.
Oh, lovely.
We should think aboutwrapping up our conversation.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And and I think that idea of makingthings a little bit kinder is a lovely
place, A little bit kinder, a little bitslower, is a lovely place to leave it.
(28:55):
And if people want to get in touch withyou, find out more about what you do,
where is the best place to find you?
Laura Breen (29:01):
Usually on LinkedIn, I think is, it's the easiest place to, to find
me otherwise on the research strategypages at the, on the university website.
It's linked to me there as well.
Sarah McLusky (29:10):
Excellent.
We'll get links to those andput them in the show notes.
Definitely.
Yeah.
The LinkedIn is where we connectedand you're certainly very active
there, so good place to comeand see what you're up to.
Oh, thank you so much for taking thetime to come along and share your
story and, it's been so interesting.
Thank you.
Laura Breen (29:27):
Lovely to meet you.
Sarah McLusky (29:31):
Thanks for listening to Research Adjacent.
If you're listening in a podcast app,please check you're subscribed and then
use the links in the episode descriptionto find full show notes and to follow
the podcast on LinkedIn or Instagram.
You can also find all the links and otherepisodes at www.researchadjacent.com.
Research Adjacent is presentedand produced by Sarah McLusky,
(29:51):
and the theme music is byLemon Music Studios on Pixabay.
And you, yes you, get a big goldstar for listening right to the end.
See you next time.
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