October 8, 2025 • 38 mins
Can food be art? Of course it can. But when does innovation work, and when does it taste like an ego play? In this episode of Restaurant People, Infatuation Editor-In-Chief Arden Shore joins Hannah and Bryan to discuss the genre of restaurants serving dishes like “spaghetti squash, passionfruit” for $21. What makes “interesting food” interesting, and who is it for? This episode is for diners who demand more from their small plates, and don’t go to restaurants just to be full.
This episode is for diners who demand more from their small plates, and don’t go to restaurants just to be full. We’re talking about quote-unquote “interesting food,” or the quirked-up combinations of ingredients and techniques that may never have been seen before. Can food be art? Of course it can. But when does self-consciously “interesting food” work and when do ego dishes fall flat?
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
- Hannah, we just went to ILIS-
- I know I was there.- ILIS, the new Nordic
fine dining spot in Greenpoint.
- Wow. What a Mad Libsy sentence that was.
- We drank what couldonly be described as a,
I don't know, a Clamato Bloody Mary
out of an oversized clam shell.
- Yep.- Sealed with beeswax,
(00:20):
I might add.- Was it?
- Yeah, it was sealed with beeswax.
- Wow.- We scraped tuna
off of tuna ribs with sharpened oysters.
- Yeah, weapons. We used weapons to eat.
- We ate caviar out of a sunflower.
It was all very interesting.
- So what is the pointof drinking clam broth
(00:41):
out of clamshells likea little beach vagrant?
- I mean, what's the point?
And also who is it for,
and when should we seekthis kind of food out?
Certainly it's not aneveryday kind of food,
that sounds exhausting.
- Yeah.- But maybe it's fun.
- It's like, "Mm, what's forbreakfast? Plums and lardo".
(01:05):
Hello, I'm Hannah Albertine,
senior editor at, "Infatuation",
and my best friend is Jimmy Nardello.
- And I'm Bryan Kim, editorial lead
for, "Infatuation", in NYC.
I've eaten avocado squash twice this week.
- This is, "Restaurant People",
the show for people who eatat restaurants sometimes,
from, "Infatuation".
Today on, "Restaurant People",
we're talking about the phenomenon
of quote unquote, "Interesting food".
(01:25):
What is it? Do we need it?
And how do we tell if it's even good?
Should we be eating food
that pushes us out of our comfort zone?
- On today's episode,
"Infatuation", Editor-In-Chief Arden Shore
will join us in studio.
- We'll talk about whatinteresting food means
and how chefs areapproaching these venues.
- We'll also discuss which restaurants
are serving up the most interesting dishes
and where you can go to push your palate
(01:46):
based on your comfort level.
- All this and more on,"Restaurant People".
A warm, "Restaurant People",welcome back to the podcast.
Arden Shore, Editor-In-Chiefof, "Infatuation",
my biological brother, Bryan's great aunt,
so good to see you.
- Thank you. These two usedto push me on the swings.
(02:08):
It's true.
And now look at you.- Hmm.
- She's sitting on a couch
all by herself.
- It's so nice to have you Arden.
- Thanks for having me guys.
What are we talking about today?
What are we getting into?- Oh my God.
- Well I'm glad you asked.
Today we're talkingabout something called,
"Interesting", food.
- And for those listening and not watching
that was quote unquote,"Interesting", food.
(02:31):
- Hannah, why do we put airquotes around, "Interesting",
and what is, "Interesting", food,
either of you, really?
- Well interesting, ofcourse, is subjective.
What's interesting to you ismaybe not as interesting to me,
depending on your taste and your context.
But for our purposes,
quote unquote, "Interesting", food
is the phenomenon that we've been noticing
(02:53):
of chefs getting a little quirked up
with their small plates.
Chefs saying, "Hey, whatif I took a Hakurei turnip
and put it with a peach?
What if I did it like alittle naughty weirdo?
- Yeah. So interestingfood has always existed
and like you said,interesting is subjective.
So really what we'retalking about, kind of, is,
(03:15):
and I don't know ifyou'll agree with this,
but what I would callself-consciously interesting food,
intentionally interesting food.
- Yes.- Food that
arrives at your tableand it says, "Look at me.
I'm interesting".
- "I'm so interesting."- Yeah.
- "I'm not like the other girls."
- What about you, Arden,
how would you define interesting food?
The way we talk about it,
the way we've been talking about it,
discussing it?- Well as I'm listening
to you two talking about it,
I'm thinking about whenyou're talking to someone
(03:36):
who's trying not togossip about somebody else
and they describe the other person as,
"Well they're nice".- Yeah.
- I feel like sometimes youget that with interesting food.
It's like, how was thatrestaurant? Or how was dinner?
And they'll say,
"It was interesting".- Which often,
more often than notcould mean a bad thing,
like an unpleasant interesting.
But it also could belike interesting good,
(03:58):
interesting positive.- Exactly.
And I think that what weneed to get at somehow
is when is interesting food good?
And to me, like I think,
what is an interesting person?What is an interesting dish?
It all comes down to someelement of like curiosity,
like was the person making this dish
coming at this from a place of like ego
and wanting to be different?
(04:19):
Or are they like exploring
new techniques and new ingredients
to give the dinersomething new and exciting
and potentially even interesting?
- Well ego food can be so good.
Ego food is often delicious.
- Not the way we talkabout it though, right?
Like we talk about ego food
and we're like, "Ugh,this is just ego food.
(04:40):
It's trying to get attention".
And it's really not,
it's interesting in a bad way almost.
- Well all three of us wentto an ego food restaurant,
dare I say recently.
- The restaurant is called ILIS.
- I-L-I-S.- I-L-I-S
is a fine dining restaurantin a former warehouse
(05:00):
in Greenpoint, Brooklyn.
- I thought it was a gallery.- I think it's a gallery.
- It was a former warehouse, I believe,
that turned into an art gallery.
- Oh, as they always do.- It turned into ILIS,
the fine dining restaurant,
new Nordic restaurantfrom a Noma co-founder.
And when it opened, Ithink those two words,
Noma co-founder,
just built up-- They, yeah.
(05:20):
- A lot of hype.- Shockwaves through
New York food media elite.- Yeah.
- Noma is like the Harvard of fine dining,
you know, it's a restaurant,
a fine dining restaurant in Copenhagen
that is highly acclaimed,lauded, et cetera.
Closed, closing? Question mark.
But also doing popups in LA.
(05:42):
That's Noma,- And beyond.
- And beyond.- And if you're into food
and you go to Copenhagen,
the first thing anyoneasks you is, "Did you go?".
- So ILIS opened up
and it had this cachet frombeing associated with Noma
through the chef.
And so it was just kind ofGreenpoints diet Noma, right?
- Yeah, Noma light.- Yeah, Noma light.
(06:04):
And when it opened, I thought...
So I reviewed it, it opened two years ago.
I reviewed it and I gaveit a really high score.
It was one of the strangestfine dining experiences
I had had, and I really respected that.
I think the philosophy they called it
was, "One House".- Okay.
- Where everyone was involvedin every kind of job.
- That sounds like
good in theory.- Right?
(06:25):
Yeah and-- A house not divided.
- Sure. Yeah.
- And they would send everyone out,
I don't know everybody,
but they would send outforaging parties into the woods
and they would gather Douglas fir
pine needles or something.- Sure yeah.
- And pawpaw. A server once told me,
"Hey, we harvested 300pounds of pawpaw in the wild
and that's what's in thiscocktail that you're drinking".
- Yeah.- Once I saw a tub of pebbles
(06:46):
sitting in the kitchen
and I was like, "I'm goingto test these people".
I was like, "Where are those pebbles from
if you're so hyper-local?".
And they were like, "We gathered them
on a beach in Northern Maine".
- I wanted them to be from Astoria.
- Yeah. That's too far, actually.
Not local enough.- No, no, no,
the very best pebbles are onbeaches in northern Maine.
- That's-- I promise.
- I mean, correct.- Yeah.
- Okay. That's ILIS when you went,
(07:07):
when you were firstreviewing it two years ago.
- That's the old ILIS, itwas wacky, it was out there,
they were doing their ownthing, it was like nothing else.
It was very confusing at first,
I thought it was a parody,it felt ridiculous.
But then I came around.
- And you liked it because
the food was objectively satisfying.
- It's really hard, sowe'll talk about this later,
but it's really hard to tell
if something is objectively good.
(07:28):
This sounds weird, isif an inventive dish,
something that doesn'texist anywhere else,
is objectively good, likehow do you judge something-
- Or is it just new?
Just different?- Yeah.
- Or is it just new and interesting?
And does that itself have value,
just new and interesting food?
- Right.- But I will say
a lot of the food at ILISwas objectively delicious.
The old ILIS, I should say.- Yeah. The old ILIS.
- A sweet potato sliced in half,
confit in bees beeswaxwith a little dollop
(07:49):
of caviar on top.- Yeah, sure.
No, that's both cool andinteresting technique.
But also sounds like, Iunderstand those flavors
and how they're going to work together.
- Objectively delicious.
And then we returned to ILIS recently,
and for me it was a muchdifferent experience.
We did the 12 course menu and-
- Which cost us, intotal for three people,
(08:11):
I feel like it was aroundthe ballpark of like $1,300.
- And so 12 courses,
how was your 12 course tasting at ILIS?
I want to ask both of you,
how was the experience,what did you think?
- I think we just got to kickoff
by starting about that clam dish.
- Mm.- You get
one clam per person, it's a huge clam,
it shows up looking like a bugle
(08:32):
and-- Yeah, standing vertically.
- Standing vertically on ice.
and you sort of, with yourlittle paw clutch the thing.
- Yeah.- And then knock it back.
- Well not, it's reallyfilled to the brim,
so it's not a shot, it'slike you're slurping
for a while.- You're slurping,
it's loaded with clam juice.
It's kind of like Clamato-- Yeah.
- But like the most perfect version of it.
And the second you take asip, you feel like you're,
(08:53):
I don't know, like at the basin
of some stream in Baja.- Yeah. Yeah.
- It's like you're at an estuary
and like fairies starts singing.
- It's estuary food for sure.- It's estuary food
and it is delicious.- Yeah.
- And it's so funny to watch
your dining companions knock it back.
I think that it does havethat element of curiosity
and it's interesting, but it'salso objectively delicious.
(09:16):
It's interesting food that works.
- And fun to drink out of-- And it's fun
and it's interactive.
And there were a lot ofinteractive experiences
throughout those 12 courses.
But some of them wereless delicious than others
and some of them did becomea little bit gimmicky.
But overall, what I liked about ILIS
is that it made me feel likea little bit of a cave person.
And all I ever want
(09:37):
in a dining experience-- Sure.
- Or maybe in my life is like,
I don't know, to like wanderaround in a loin cloth
and like eat tuna.
So
at ILIS we got a little bit of that.
We also got to scrape the tuna carcasses.
- No, we each had anoyster shell to scrape
the ribs- It's our cave man tool.
And they were alsosharpened, they told us.
(10:00):
One edge of that oystershell was sharpened
and you could really tell the difference.
And so each of us reachedinto the middle of the table
and scraped our portions of tuna.
- And of course, you know,
it's covered in like preservedstrawberry yuzu kosho,
like it's not just tuna.
Like there-- Which we had, by the way,
already seen in the crudites
of that meal.- With the crudites,
of course, that's right.- And so we were already
(10:20):
a little, you know, unimpressed
by the use of kosho.- That didn't bother me
so much that we had seen it already.
But, so during tuna one,
Arden said, "I'm having fun",interesting food is fun,
like the interactiveelement was the cool thing.
And also, you know,
it's raw tuna, how bad could it be?
(10:41):
Then fast forward, not theimmediate course after,
I want to say maybe twoor three courses later,
does that sound right?- It was definitely
at least three courses later.- Yeah.
We get a reprise of the tuna.- Tuna reprise.
Not entirely welcome.What did you all think?
- Well it said it was supposed to be
the cooked version of that,
but the presentation is very similar,
(11:03):
so you get the rib again.
- Yeah.- And you're scraping again.
And it has a different topping.
But the effect of that immersionis no longer satisfying,
because we're like, we did this already.
- Yeah it was such a similardish and it was so weird.
Fine dining places like neverrepeat ingredients really.
(11:24):
And they repeated like awhole dish, pretty much.
It's a different condiment
on top.- It was the same dish.
We're ready for something else.
- It almost came off as a mistake.
And what was interesting about that meal
is there was a progression
of what started as reallyinteresting dishes,
like that clam up front,
and then it got slowlyless and less interesting.
- Yeah.- And the grand finale was...
- Roast chicken.
(11:45):
- Roast chicken.- Roast chicken.
- Objectively the least interesting food
in the history of food.- It is-
- Roast chicken.- However,
it was a perfectly cooked-- It was.
- Chicken, it was so juicy,
you tap that thing with your fork.
- So that's one type of interesting food.
But ILIS is more reflective of like
a certain fine dining, we'regoing to give you a sunflower
(12:08):
and it's going to havecaviar on top of it.
The other side ofinteresting food is the more,
every man, wine bar,place that just looks like
it might exist in your neighborhood,
but really there's like a chef in the back
cooking up something with aningredient called Job's Tears,
(12:30):
which is a grain bearingplant in the grass family.
- Oh, so good to know.
- Can you think of aplace you've been recently
that fits that category?
- That's interesting winebar or just a wine bar?
- Interesting wine bar.
- Interesting wine baror wine bar adjacent,
just like the kind oflike cool casual place
doing interesting food
with menus that havethree ingredients on them
(12:51):
and that's the dish.
- And there's no way you'redrinking Sancerre there.
- Yeah. No Sancerre allowed.- No.
- For me the big one is Baby Bistro in LA,
which is kind of an adorable name,
but it's a wine bar, it's in Echo Park.
You feel like you're insomeone's green little bungalow.
All of the servers introduce themselves
and they have wines you'vereally never heard of.
(13:12):
And like one of the servers has gone
and like lived on thevineyard for three weeks
and can tell you all about it.- Of course.
- And they have one of these menus
that changes almost daily.
And the menu, as you said before,
barely tells you anything about each dish.
But like I ate a dish there
that was so interesting and delicious,
I'm still thinking about ita month and a half later.
(13:33):
It's tofu, it's turnip, it's raspberry.
What a weird combination.- Yeah.
- And on the menu it probably just said
like, "Tofu, turnip, raspberry".
- It doesn't say raspberries,I've seen the menu.
It says, "Tofu turnips",
and it's $19.- Wow.
- And then it was a surprise raspberry.
And for whatever reason thetartness of the raspberry-
- Yeah.- It's like this soft tofu,
(13:54):
really brings it together.
I mean that restaurant is weird,
they're doing weird stuff.
Shout out to Miles Thompson, the chef.
- We reached out to the Baby Bistro team
and got a quote from thechef there, Miles Thompson.
And we asked, "Why are youdrawn to making this food,
rather than say classics?".
And what Miles said is, "In a nutshell,
I like the freedom of creation
(14:15):
and the style of food that I make.
I'll use classicaltechniques/sauces/ratios,
but not having to adherestrictly to the established rules
or being bound to the specificborders of a classic dish
means I get to inflect
a much more personal touch tothe food that I'm creating.
That's not to say everythingworks all the time,
it doesn't".
- It seems to be all aboutthat personal touch, right?
(14:37):
Just the chef expressingsomething with their food.
All right I'm curious, what is it about,
so you're a fan of, you'rea big fan of Baby Bistro.
How does the food make you feel?
Like why do you like that
style of food?- Do you feel Miles'
personal touch?
- I feel Miles' personal touch,
but I also do find that it's,
ultimately I've had a comforting meal,
that's why I like it.
And ultimately when people go out to eat,
(14:58):
they're looking forsatisfaction, comfort, pleasure.
And when we think of likeyour classic American diner
or your TGI Fridays or whatever,
you're going to be satisfied.
And I think that the end result
of a successful interesting meal
will leave you feeling comfortable,
(15:20):
will leave you feeling satisfied.
- Satisfied with the perk perhaps of,
"Oh my God, I've never had raspberry,
turnip and tofu together".
- What interesting is all about
is taking techniques andflavors and ingredients
and doing unexpected things with them.
And that's not to say
that we're like exoticizing or othering
(15:42):
ingredients that we don't see very often.
You know, the average diner
probably isn't even seeinglike venison or turnip
or like some certain typesof spices out so much.
But it's about what areyou doing with those
and how delicious can you make them.
- Yeah it's not interesting
just because of any one ingredient.
- Yes.- It's interesting
usually because it's just nothing,
(16:03):
no combination you've ever seen before.
- It all comes back to is this art,
is interesting food art?
And I think the answer is of course it is.
And that's so exciting,
it's great to experienceart that you can eat.
- Yeah.- You know? We're eating art.
- So where do you think
this interesting food is coming from?
Because it's not just thecategory of fine dining,
it's not just the menu. You know?
(16:24):
- So the history of interestingfood is the history of food,
or the history of inventivefood is a history of food.
Right? 'Cause every food was inventive
at some point.- Yeah.
- Your hamburgers, your hotdogs, those were all invented,
right?- That would've been
such a sick thing to bearound for the first hot dog.
- I know.- And you were like,
"This hot dog is so interesting".
- Hot dogs by the way,one of my favorite foods.
- Totally agree.- Not that interesting.
- No, but perfect.
(16:45):
- But if we really want to start
talking about interesting food
as it's presented in restaurants today,
we can go back to maybe the 1960s, 1970s
to the Nouvelle Cuisinemovement in France,
which I think was a reaction
to kind of the heavier, less healthy
traditional cuisine in France.
- Gloopy mother sauces.- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So you had Nouvelle Cuisine,
(17:06):
there were 10 commandments
for the Nouvelle Cuisine movement.
And I don't remember most of them,
I do remember the 10th, something like it,
it was like, "You will be inventive".
- You will.- That was something like
the 10th commandment, right?- It's a mandate.
- Whoa. Okay.- Yeah.
So that's the Nouvelle Cuisine movement.
And then what happens inAmerica right after that-
- We're talking seventies, eighties-
- Yeah, you're using-- We're talking sixties-
(17:26):
seventies actually.- You're using fresh
American ingredients.
And then you're putting them together
in somewhat novel combinations,
they are mostly Europeaninspired combinations
at that time.- Yes.
- But now today, newAmerican food still exists,
unfortunately we don'thave a better term for it.
- Yeah.- And it is,
everything fits under that.- Yeah.
- And new American food and inventive food
are kind of synonymous todayunder new American food.
(17:48):
We put places like Bonnie's,
a Cantonese Americanrestaurant in Williamsburg.
- That's new American food.
- That's new American food.- They call themselves
Cantonese American.
- Cantonese American.- Yeah, yeah.
- But at the same time it is,
it's new American.- Of course.
Absolutely.- But also Union Square Cafe,
Danny Meyer's Union Square Cafe.
- Yeah.- New American food.
But that started, you know,
(18:09):
back around the 1970s.- Yeah.
- Chez Panisse.- Yeah.
- You had the Four Seasons in New York.
Arden, you are from California,
you're from the birthplace
of new American food, right?- California.
- What do you know about Spago?
What do you know about Spago?- California.
Oh, you want to talk about Wolfgang Puck?
- Yeah. Yeah.- Absolutely.
- Wolfgang Puck opened Spago,
he put smoked salmon onpizza and LA went berserk.
(18:31):
- People lost their mind.- Specifically Beverly Hills,
they were like, "Oh my God,
this is delish".- Yeah. Let's pause.
That's interesting food, right?
- That was interesting foodwhen it was first unleashed.
But I still think it's interesting
to put smoked salmon on pizza.
That's an unheard of
combination- You ordering it?
- Me personally? Yeah, I'm ordering it.
I want to, I got to...- She wants it.
- You can't go to Spago and notget the smoked salmon pizza.
(18:53):
- There's no tomato sauce on it, right?
- No.- Okay, all right.
- But what's interesting about Spago
is that it's still going.- Yeah.
- It's not like youcan't get a reservation,
but you roll into thatBeverly Hills restaurant
and it is packed.
- Yeah. Yeah.- With all demographics,
who want to experience
like the birthplace of new American food
in Southern California.
(19:14):
I was going to say California,but we can't forget about
the Bay area.- We can't forget about them,
that's right,
they would be so mad at you.- They're so serious.
- [Hannah] They wouldget really mad at you.
- They would get upset with me.
But Spago was, you know,using really local vegetables,
they were going to the SantaMonica farmer's market.
- Yeah.- And putting together
these beautifully plated
fresh dishes.- Yeah.
(19:35):
- That were sort of Calitale.
And they're still doingthe exact same thing.
And I think that it now feels stale,
which is interesting.- It's no longer interesting.
- New American feels old.- Yeah.
Well people roll their eyes.- But that is...
Right, they roll their eyes.
And like when we writeabout new American food,
we try not to use that word.- Because why?
- Because it's such acatchall for everything
(19:58):
that it doesn't describe much at all.
- Yeah.- I think experimental
is often more utilitarian.
Like Bridges is experimental in New York.
- And Bridges in Chinatown
is a restaurant from someonewho used to work at Estela,
which is also in New York on Houston.
And I think of Estela aslike, at least in New York,
(20:21):
an early father of theinteresting food movement.
- Absolutely. But bothof those restaurants,
I would put like, I thinkthey are in the direct lineage
of this new American movement.
- For sure.- But yes, Estela,
you want to talk about Estela?
It's one of your favoriterestaurants, I know.
- The chefs at Estela do this thing
that is kind of like hide and go seeky,
(20:41):
like they cover their dishes with,
if it's herbs, maybeit's like thinly sliced,
raw buttoned mushrooms,
such that you do notknow what's underneath.
And so in order to eat it, you got to dig,
you become an archeologist.
And that's fun. That's immersive to me.
Do you guys like Estela? Am I alone?
- I want it to be more interesting.
I want it to be more inventive.
(21:03):
I really thought Estela,
I thought Estela was really cool
like 10 years ago, right?- Totally. Yeah.
- But now do I reallywant to go to Estela?
Not really.- So Estela-
- I like it. I like it a lot.- Is no longer the
hot, new interesting place,
but Bridges is.- Right.
- Yes.- And what's similar
about both of these restaurants
is that they're both, Iwould say, sexy, right?
- Yeah.- They're sexy restaurants
you would go to for like a big date night,
(21:24):
the lighting is moody, I think there's
candles at both restaurants.- Yeah.
- And it's a place where you want to see
and be seen a little bit.
I would say interesting foodis not your top priority there,
it's impressing your date,it's having a romantic meal,
it's feeling like
a real big bad New Yorker.- Right.
- Whereas at a restaurant like ILIS,
(21:45):
you're like, "I'm going todo a tasting menu tonight",
you're there to eat.- Yeah.
- And maybe like celebratea big anniversary.
But it's not about like thesex appeal of the restaurant.
- Yeah.- It's about the food.
- So who is this food for?
Like who is going to gravitatetowards these restaurants
serving quote unquote,"Interesting", food?
Whether or not that,"Interesting", food is good.
(22:06):
- That's something Ithink about all the time,
'cause I have to evaluatethese restaurants,
right? For my job.- Yeah.
- I have to review them
and then I have to givethem a rating, right?
And for some of them,
like if you're lookingfor a straightforward meal
and you just want a burger,
you are going to giveThe Four Horseman a 6.5.
- That's right, it's not for you.
- Right.- Yeah.
- And so I need to figure outwho's The Four Horseman for
(22:27):
and it is for people who wantto try something interesting.
I mean, it sounds basic,but it's the truth,
people who want to eat something cool.
It's kind of a genreof dining that's like,
you're not hungry.
- We're picking, we're picking.
- You're not going, you're hungry,
you're not going there'cause you're hungry,
you're going there 'causeyou want to try something new
for the experience.- Yeah.
- It's experiential dining.
(22:48):
It's like recreational dining.- For sure. It's leisure.
- It's modern day hot cuisineis what it is. You know?
And it attracts people
who might call themselvesfoodies, food snobs,
that kind of thing.- Yeah.
- That's not to say they alsocan't get down and dirty-
- Sure.- With a burger
and some spinach dip at Hillstone.
Because these days I think we have
(23:10):
like this stratification of
everyone likes every type of restaurant.
- Yeah.- Even the foodies
are eating burgers.- Yeah.
I think it's for people who like jazz.
I think it's for people who like art.
I think it's-- Okay. It's for people
who don't like jazz too.- Okay sure.
- It's for everybody.- You love jazz.
(23:31):
- It's for people who likechasing the hot restaurants
and like-- Yeah.
- And like being on top of what's new
and hot and interesting.
- It's for people who demandmore from their small plates.
It's for people who are boredof a little ricotta on toast.
- [Bryan] If you're enjoying this episode,
make sure to follow, like, subscribe
(23:53):
to, "Restaurant People", on YouTube
and all your preferred podcast platforms
so you don't miss an episode.
- So if interesting food is new to you
or you want to figure out
like your way in
to this genre,
we have some advice.
We broke out quote unquote,"Interesting", food restaurants
(24:13):
into different tiers
based on how interesting they really are.
What's the first tier?
- Okay so these tiers, Ifeel like they'll help you
pick the right restaurant for you.
But also just help explain
what we mean when we say interesting food.
Interesting food
is more than just onekind of restaurant, right?
It's not just your fine dining.
So tier number one is,
(24:35):
we do things a little differently here.
- We do things
a little differently here.- Why do we
call it that Hannah?- Just a little differently.
- What do we call it,
we do things a little differently here?
- Because like it'srecognizable with a twist.
It's a pizza, but it'sa whole wheat crust.
And they're slapping somecorn on it or something.
- And they're serving a family style.
(24:57):
- And a lot of these are
some of our reallyhighly rated restaurants
across the country.- Yeah.
- Places that do thingsa little differently,
but you still kind ofknow what you're in for.
Can you think of some examples here?
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tatiana, one of ourhighest rated restaurants
in New York City.- Yeah. Yeah.
- We do things-- The highest rated restaurant
in New York City.
- We do things a little differently?
- Yeah.- Yeah.
(25:17):
How would you describe Tatiana?
- Well Tatiana is arestaurant in Lincoln Center.
- On the Upper West Side.- On the Upper West Side.
That is taking sort of likeclassic New York iconic dishes,
like a beef patty, like pastrami
and creating something newout of those touchpoints.
- Yes.- So there's this like
pastrami suya dish, islike the big showstopper.
(25:41):
And it is a blend of cultures, cuisines,
often based on West Africanfood or Caribbean food
and doing something new.
- Other New York Cityrestaurants we have in this tier,
I'll just rattle off-- Yeah, rat them all.
- C As In Charlie,
which is a Korean inspired restaurant
in NoHo in New York City.
(26:02):
There's Superiority Burger.
- Yeah, that's a really good one.
- Superiority Burger,everyone's favorite restaurant
to say is their favorite restaurant.
You know what I mean?
Or at least it was like five years ago.
"What's your favorite restaurant?"
"Superiority Burger."
It was just a good answer.- Especially industry people.
Yeah.- Yeah.
Superiority Burger though, we're fans.
Thai Diner, we're huge fans
of Thai Diner.- That's
totally in this category.
- What else?- It's a breakfast sandwich,
(26:23):
but it's made of roti.- Yeah.
- Tier two is, we're calling ambidextrous.
- Ambidextrous.- So these are restaurants
that can go kind of either way.
They could be totally interesting,
depending on what you order;
Or you can bring your pickiest friend
and they won't be freaked out.
- Arden, do you have any guesses
as to which New York City or otherwise
(26:44):
restaurants might be on this list?
- Well I think the perfect example of this
is The Four Horsemen
in Williamsburg.- Oh interesting.
- And that's because
I went there recentlywith a friend of mine
who's a little picky.
- Yeah. Yeah.- Little picky.
And we still had an excellent meal of,
you know, we had somesalad, we had some crudo.
- Sure.- We had some
(27:05):
bread with your cheffedup butter of sorts.
And like nothing wasparticularly so interesting.
Would I have liked to eat,
you know, the pork chop orlike the head-on prawns,
which don't even sound that interesting,
but you know that at FourHorsemen they will be
because they're doing
freaky stuff to them.- Yeah.
- But I think it's ambidextrous
because it can go bothways, it can do a lot.
(27:28):
- The thing about The Four Horsemen is
the menu changes likeevery two weeks or so,
you never really know how often.
So yeah, depending on themenu, it could be in this tier.
- There's a place in Chicagocalled Cellar Door Provisions
that our team likes a lot over there.
And we reached out to thechef and co-owner there,
whose name is Ethan.
(27:49):
And Ethan comes from afine dining background,
but loves bistro style foods.
So on the menu you're going tohave cured sun gold tomatoes
in fortified tomato water, obviously,
with like perilla jolais.
But you're also going to get a burger
with aioli and pickled Fresnos
and like very specific greens.
And that to me reads likean ambidextrous restaurant
(28:11):
because you could bring yourfrightened little friend
and they'll be like,"Give me that burger".
And they'll be like,
"Wow, can you believe thegreens on this thing?".
But it's still withinthe wheelhouse of comfort
and like ease for them,
while you eat your tomato water
or whatever.- It sounds like
it's new American done right.
Right? It's like-- Yes.
(28:31):
- You have your tomatoes butthey're in fortified water.
And it's like all ofthese recognizable things
that have really gotten special treatment.
- And so we asked Ethan, you know,
how do you balance
prioritizing food that'sinteresting to you
versus interesting to the guest
and the diners at large?
And Ethan said, "We try tobegin with dishes that excite us
(28:53):
and then consider how a dinerwould respond to the thing.
How challenging will they find the dish?
We love food that mightfeel outwardly foreign,
but instantly familiar andappealing as soon as you eat it".
I think that's a reallygood summary of like,
you look at it and you'relike, what are those layers?
What are those leafs doing there?
But the feeling of eatingit, like as a whole,
(29:15):
is familiar somehow.
- Yeah. There have to besome familiar elements
for you to connect to,like for it to have,
for you to have a response, right? Or no?
- Yeah, I think so. Becausethen you're just like
in ILIS territory againand again and again.
Which may or may not be satisfying,
but it's a different type of satisfying.
- Arden, you know this place well,
it is Four Horsemen adjacent,
it's from the peoplebehind Penny, it is Claud.
(29:38):
Claud is a restaurant slashwine bar in the East Village
in a basement below itssister restaurant Penny.
It is European inspiredand it's a fun place.
- Claud.- Claud. Ambidextrous.
Arden, would you agree with that?
Is Claud somewhere you could go
and have maybe a kind of wacky meal
and then also just a safe meal?
- Claud's a great example
(29:58):
because they have Agnolotti,
but they're loaded with chicken liver,
which-- Yeah.
That's a great example.- You know,
might freak some people out,
but it's so delicious and familiar.
But a little bit different, it's got that
irony taste to it.- Yeah.
- But they also do like areally perfect roast chicken
which feels safe.- And a perfect deviled cake.
- [Arden] And a nice chocolate cake,
which is all about nostalgia.
- Yeah.- I think it has like
(30:19):
the elements of nostalgia and pleasure.
And then a little bit oflike playfulness and like,
"We did that", wink wink.- Yeah.
- And then they run away.
- There's another place in Austin
that I think falls into this category
that's called Le Calamar.- Oh.
- And it's like, as ourwriter Nikolai described,
sort of like fairlyclassical French stuff,
(30:40):
but nothing feels like over tweezy.
And there's some twists,
like a de-boned chicken wing
stuffed with huitlacocheand chicken mousseline.
It's sort of like a superengineered chicken wing.
You're like, "I've hadchicken wings before,
but never like that".
You know, the thesisof his review is like,
fancy food doesn't need to feel fussy.
And actually I think that that kind of,
(31:01):
you know, captures whatwe're talking about.
With great interesting food,
it's fancy, it's not fussy.
Tier three is my favorite.
- Well then let's take a look at it.
Why is tier three
your favorite first off?- 'Cause it's like,
it's the one we've been talkingabout the most, I think.
Tier three, Riddle Foods.- Riddle Foods,
that's the title we settledon, it's a working title.
- It's a working title.- Riddle Foods.
It's kind of like you eatsomething and you're like, "Oh,
(31:22):
oh, aha. Mm.
Hey, that's interesting".
Isn't that this one?- Hmm. Hmm.
- Hmm.- Neat.
Look at that, that's neat.- Oh.
- And the menu couldsatisfy your picky friend,
but they're not reallythe best people to bring,
like don't bring yourpicky friend actually.
All of these restaurants,
almost all of these restaurantshave house sourdough
(31:44):
and it probably comeswith like Koji butter.
The menu is going to be maximum 90 words.
You don't know what's astarter, what's an entree.
And the server is going to say
you should order two tothree small plates a person.
- Yeah you're lost, the menu is providing
minimal assistance here.- Nothing.
(32:04):
- You just have no ideawhat you're ordering.
- It's like plum comma beet.
- Exactly.- And it's $19.
- Yes. Always $19 at least.- At least $19.
- There's a cafe in LA called Destroyer,
it's only breakfast, lunch.
And you could easily go there
and eat like yogurt andblueberries, or so you think,
but like the blueberries have been cured.
(32:25):
- Sure.- And like
you're getting thechicken schnitzel salad,
like that's not yourstandard chicken schnitzel,
they've done things to it
that like I can't even describe.
- Whoa.- It's sort of space food.
And it's from this chef Jordan Khan,
who also did Vespertine and Meteora,
two very high-end fine dining restaurants
that our team in LA does not love.
(32:46):
But we really like Destroyerbecause it's interesting
but just familiar enough.
- Okay.- Right?
And you can get like a galette,
a savory galette or a sandwich
and everything's going tobe a little wackadoodle.
- Yeah.- But just enough.
And by looking at the menu,you would have no idea,
you would think you're justgetting blueberries and yogurt.
(33:09):
- There's a place in Miami called Recoveco
that our editor Ryan, who reviewed it,
is just absolutely over the moon about.
He said it was a place
that he wants to go toagain and again and again,
because you never knowwhat you're going to get
and it feels surprising.
- What kind of food do they do?
- It's the same genre of likewhat we're talking about,
it's sort of new American,
(33:29):
but that's not really thebest way to describe it.
- Okay. Jimmy Nardello peppers,
any Jimmy Nards on the menu?- For sure, there's going to be
some JNs.
- What else?- 'Tis the season.
- Wax beans?- Some Jonathan Nardos.
- Dandelion greens perhaps?- Yeah, probably.
Probably dandy greens.
Another tier three Riddle Food restaurant
is Elske in Chicago, whichhas a 9.0 on our site
and is on The 25 BestRestaurants in Chicago guide.
(33:53):
Like there's a tasting menu,but it's also a la carte.
You can start with atea, the tasting menu,
you have to start with a teaof smoked fruits, for example.
I'm really excited to go, I'm going soon.
- Other New York City restaurants
that debatably fit into this category,
I'm not a hundred percent sure
with these.- Okay.
- Atoboy. Do you knowAtoboy, the inventive Korean
(34:13):
inspired restaurant- Yeah, I like that place.
- From the people behind Atomix
in New York City.- Yeah.
- You also have another one called Cormia,
a relatively new one.- Yeah.
- In Chinatown in New York.- Yep.
- That is Northern Mexican inspired.
And they do a really cool tasting menu
that I really want to try again,
even though I think I've had it twice now.
- You want to go back for more?
- Yeah. You might get something like
(34:34):
a sope with English peas
and raw shrimp.- Yeah. Yeah.
- And it's really good.
Moving on, tier four.
- Yeah.- Tier four, we have
Chef Recommends.- Chef Recommends.
You eat it this way?- Yeah.
- Chef Recommends that you must
bounce up and down three timesand shake your little butt
(34:55):
before you enjoy your goose liver.
- I mean, Meteora in LA,which I just mentioned
from the same chef asDestroyer, which we like a lot,
Meteora we like less so.
The chef describes it as
a prehistoric restaurant.- Oh my God.
- Which is so-- Get a life.
- Exactly. Get a life.
And the inside feels tiluminous,
like it feels like a TiLumi restaurant.
(35:17):
But I think they're going for like,
"The Land Before Time".- Yeah.
- While I was there, I was served salt
that I was told was sea water
that had been filteredthrough a coconut husk.
- Wait, I feel like I've heard about this.
- It's an absurd restaurant.
But that salt was so salty,
I was thirsty for days.- Sure. Yeah.
- It was an uncomfortable
(35:38):
dining experience.- Yeah. Yeah.
- And there was no pleasureto be had whatsoever.
- Yeah.- And it's fine dining,
so it was expensive, right?- Yeah.
- But chef recommended
a lot of things.- Yeah.
- Yeah, the highest stakes
tend to be the most expensive.
- Yeah.- And yeah, like,
yeah usually the mostself-indulgent restaurants.
- This is ego food.
(35:59):
Oh my God, yeah.- Yeah. It can be ego food.
But something like,
there are a few places inNew York that we do like
and they're both fine dining.- Yeah.
- I would say Aska
is another one of thosenew Nordic restaurants
in Williamsburg.- Yeah.
- I think they do itwithout going over the top,
it's still enjoyable.- Yeah.
- Even if you are going to windup eating moss or something.
- Totally.- And then there is Atomix,
(36:22):
the sister restaurant of Atoboy.
It is the fine dining place in
the nomad neighborhood of New York City,
just in a basement of this townhouse.
I think there's roughly 12seats around the counter.
But it's a very inventive,
Korean inspired tasting menu.- Yeah.
- I wouldn't even call it Korean food,
because it's not recognizably Korean food.
(36:43):
There are a lot of Korean flavors.
- Sure.- It's Korean inspired,
but really it's experimental food
is what I would call it.- Yeah.
- And they do just a really good job
of just telling this story,this narrative with this food
and these note cards thatthey pass out along with it.
- Yeah.- It's an experience for sure.
- I mean, I think...
Right, at this tier four,
the experience has tobe part of your meal.
(37:05):
Like it cannot just beyou're ingesting food.
- Yeah. They got to sell you on it.
- It's a story I guess.
And that's where interestingfood can be very eye rolly
and ridiculous.- Yeah. They got to pull you in
and make sure you're all on the same page
and like make sure you know
what story you're listening to or reading.
- Yeah. And sometimes it,
you're like, I smell the ,
(37:25):
I smell that fart.
And sometimes you're like,
oh my God, I'm ready.- Yeah.
- I'll go find somesnails with you tomorrow.
- So do you think thereis ultimately this divide
between sustenance restaurants,
or restaurants you go to
'cause you're hungry-- Yes.
- And then recreation restaurants?
- This is brain restaurants.- Absolutely.
This is brain restaurants.- Brain restaurants.
And obviously-- This is culture restaurants-
- It's a gray area.- This is clout restaurant.
(37:47):
- Yeah.- Yeah.
- There's a gray area,there's some overlap
and maybe that gray area overlap
has some of the most popular,highest rated restaurants,
at least on our site,
I think it does.- For sure. Yeah, tier ones.
- We could have an even longer discussion
about how can interestingfood stay interesting.
Can it? Like no, right?
- Probably not because it becomes
recognizable and cliche.- Cliche.
- And it's that-- Salmon on Pizza
is a really good example.- Yeah.
(38:09):
- It's like, yeah I'veseen it before, I get it.
- But there's still ways
for that restaurant to survive, Spago.
- Spago.- It becomes a classic,
but it's no longer interesting.
- Yeah. The lifecycle ofan interesting restaurant.
- But then it's like, is it boring? Maybe.
- Only to snobs like us.
- Totally. Snobs like us.- Only to snobs like us.
(38:32):
- Yeah.- We sure do hate ourselves.
- If you want to find out more restaurants
that are pushing boundaries,
for better or for worse,in your neighborhood,
check out our reviews andguides on TheInfatuation.com
or @Infatuation on Instagram
or @TheInfatuation on TikTok.
(38:54):
I'm Hannah.- I'm Bryan.
Arden, thank you so muchfor joining us today.
This was, "Restaurant People",
a show from, "Infatuation".
- Hannah, we just went to ILIS-
- I know I was there.- ILIS, the new Nordic
fine dining spot in Greenpoint.
- Wow. What a Mad Libsy sentence that was.
- We drank what couldonly be described as a,
I don't know, a Clamato Bloody Mary
out of an oversized clam shell.
- Yep.- Sealed with beeswax,
(00:20):
I might add.- Was it?
- Yeah, it was sealed with beeswax.
- Wow.- We scraped tuna
off of tuna ribs with sharpened oysters.
- Yeah, weapons. We used weapons to eat.
- We ate caviar out of a sunflower.
It was all very interesting.
- So what is the pointof drinking clam broth
(00:41):
out of clamshells likea little beach vagrant?
- I mean, what's the point?
And also who is it for,
and when should we seekthis kind of food out?
Certainly it's not aneveryday kind of food,
that sounds exhausting.
- Yeah.- But maybe it's fun.
- It's like, "Mm, what's forbreakfast? Plums and lardo".
(01:05):
Hello, I'm Hannah Albertine,
senior editor at, "Infatuation",
and my best friend is Jimmy Nardello.
- And I'm Bryan Kim, editorial lead
for, "Infatuation", in NYC.
I've eaten avocado squash twice this week.
- This is, "Restaurant People",
the show for people who eatat restaurants sometimes,
from, "Infatuation".
Today on, "Restaurant People",
we're talking about the phenomenon
of quote unquote, "Interesting food".
(01:25):
What is it? Do we need it?
And how do we tell if it's even good?
Should we be eating food
that pushes us out of our comfort zone?
- On today's episode,
"Infatuation", Editor-In-Chief Arden Shore
will join us in studio.
- We'll talk about whatinteresting food means
and how chefs areapproaching these venues.
- We'll also discuss which restaurants
are serving up the most interesting dishes
and where you can go to push your palate
(01:46):
based on your comfort level.
- All this and more on,"Restaurant People".
A warm, "Restaurant People",welcome back to the podcast.
Arden Shore, Editor-In-Chiefof, "Infatuation",
my biological brother, Bryan's great aunt,
so good to see you.
- Thank you. These two usedto push me on the swings.
(02:08):
It's true.
And now look at you.- Hmm.
- She's sitting on a couch
all by herself.
- It's so nice to have you Arden.
- Thanks for having me guys.
What are we talking about today?
What are we getting into?- Oh my God.
- Well I'm glad you asked.
Today we're talkingabout something called,
"Interesting", food.
- And for those listening and not watching
that was quote unquote,"Interesting", food.
(02:31):
- Hannah, why do we put airquotes around, "Interesting",
and what is, "Interesting", food,
either of you, really?
- Well interesting, ofcourse, is subjective.
What's interesting to you ismaybe not as interesting to me,
depending on your taste and your context.
But for our purposes,
quote unquote, "Interesting", food
is the phenomenon that we've been noticing
(02:53):
of chefs getting a little quirked up
with their small plates.
Chefs saying, "Hey, whatif I took a Hakurei turnip
and put it with a peach?
What if I did it like alittle naughty weirdo?
- Yeah. So interestingfood has always existed
and like you said,interesting is subjective.
So really what we'retalking about, kind of, is,
(03:15):
and I don't know ifyou'll agree with this,
but what I would callself-consciously interesting food,
intentionally interesting food.
- Yes.- Food that
arrives at your tableand it says, "Look at me.
I'm interesting".
- "I'm so interesting."- Yeah.
- "I'm not like the other girls."
- What about you, Arden,
how would you define interesting food?
The way we talk about it,
the way we've been talking about it,
discussing it?- Well as I'm listening
to you two talking about it,
I'm thinking about whenyou're talking to someone
(03:36):
who's trying not togossip about somebody else
and they describe the other person as,
"Well they're nice".- Yeah.
- I feel like sometimes youget that with interesting food.
It's like, how was thatrestaurant? Or how was dinner?
And they'll say,
"It was interesting".- Which often,
more often than notcould mean a bad thing,
like an unpleasant interesting.
But it also could belike interesting good,
(03:58):
interesting positive.- Exactly.
And I think that what weneed to get at somehow
is when is interesting food good?
And to me, like I think,
what is an interesting person?What is an interesting dish?
It all comes down to someelement of like curiosity,
like was the person making this dish
coming at this from a place of like ego
and wanting to be different?
(04:19):
Or are they like exploring
new techniques and new ingredients
to give the dinersomething new and exciting
and potentially even interesting?
- Well ego food can be so good.
Ego food is often delicious.
- Not the way we talkabout it though, right?
Like we talk about ego food
and we're like, "Ugh,this is just ego food.
(04:40):
It's trying to get attention".
And it's really not,
it's interesting in a bad way almost.
- Well all three of us wentto an ego food restaurant,
dare I say recently.
- The restaurant is called ILIS.
- I-L-I-S.- I-L-I-S
is a fine dining restaurantin a former warehouse
(05:00):
in Greenpoint, Brooklyn.
- I thought it was a gallery.- I think it's a gallery.
- It was a former warehouse, I believe,
that turned into an art gallery.
- Oh, as they always do.- It turned into ILIS,
the fine dining restaurant,
new Nordic restaurantfrom a Noma co-founder.
And when it opened, Ithink those two words,
Noma co-founder,
just built up-- They, yeah.
(05:20):
- A lot of hype.- Shockwaves through
New York food media elite.- Yeah.
- Noma is like the Harvard of fine dining,
you know, it's a restaurant,
a fine dining restaurant in Copenhagen
that is highly acclaimed,lauded, et cetera.
Closed, closing? Question mark.
But also doing popups in LA.
(05:42):
That's Noma,- And beyond.
- And beyond.- And if you're into food
and you go to Copenhagen,
the first thing anyoneasks you is, "Did you go?".
- So ILIS opened up
and it had this cachet frombeing associated with Noma
through the chef.
And so it was just kind ofGreenpoints diet Noma, right?
- Yeah, Noma light.- Yeah, Noma light.
(06:04):
And when it opened, I thought...
So I reviewed it, it opened two years ago.
I reviewed it and I gaveit a really high score.
It was one of the strangestfine dining experiences
I had had, and I really respected that.
I think the philosophy they called it
was, "One House".- Okay.
- Where everyone was involvedin every kind of job.
- That sounds like
good in theory.- Right?
(06:25):
Yeah and-- A house not divided.
- Sure. Yeah.
- And they would send everyone out,
I don't know everybody,
but they would send outforaging parties into the woods
and they would gather Douglas fir
pine needles or something.- Sure yeah.
- And pawpaw. A server once told me,
"Hey, we harvested 300pounds of pawpaw in the wild
and that's what's in thiscocktail that you're drinking".
- Yeah.- Once I saw a tub of pebbles
(06:46):
sitting in the kitchen
and I was like, "I'm goingto test these people".
I was like, "Where are those pebbles from
if you're so hyper-local?".
And they were like, "We gathered them
on a beach in Northern Maine".
- I wanted them to be from Astoria.
- Yeah. That's too far, actually.
Not local enough.- No, no, no,
the very best pebbles are onbeaches in northern Maine.
- That's-- I promise.
- I mean, correct.- Yeah.
- Okay. That's ILIS when you went,
(07:07):
when you were firstreviewing it two years ago.
- That's the old ILIS, itwas wacky, it was out there,
they were doing their ownthing, it was like nothing else.
It was very confusing at first,
I thought it was a parody,it felt ridiculous.
But then I came around.
- And you liked it because
the food was objectively satisfying.
- It's really hard, sowe'll talk about this later,
but it's really hard to tell
if something is objectively good.
(07:28):
This sounds weird, isif an inventive dish,
something that doesn'texist anywhere else,
is objectively good, likehow do you judge something-
- Or is it just new?
Just different?- Yeah.
- Or is it just new and interesting?
And does that itself have value,
just new and interesting food?
- Right.- But I will say
a lot of the food at ILISwas objectively delicious.
The old ILIS, I should say.- Yeah. The old ILIS.
- A sweet potato sliced in half,
confit in bees beeswaxwith a little dollop
(07:49):
of caviar on top.- Yeah, sure.
No, that's both cool andinteresting technique.
But also sounds like, Iunderstand those flavors
and how they're going to work together.
- Objectively delicious.
And then we returned to ILIS recently,
and for me it was a muchdifferent experience.
We did the 12 course menu and-
- Which cost us, intotal for three people,
(08:11):
I feel like it was aroundthe ballpark of like $1,300.
- And so 12 courses,
how was your 12 course tasting at ILIS?
I want to ask both of you,
how was the experience,what did you think?
- I think we just got to kickoff
by starting about that clam dish.
- Mm.- You get
one clam per person, it's a huge clam,
it shows up looking like a bugle
(08:32):
and-- Yeah, standing vertically.
- Standing vertically on ice.
and you sort of, with yourlittle paw clutch the thing.
- Yeah.- And then knock it back.
- Well not, it's reallyfilled to the brim,
so it's not a shot, it'slike you're slurping
for a while.- You're slurping,
it's loaded with clam juice.
It's kind of like Clamato-- Yeah.
- But like the most perfect version of it.
And the second you take asip, you feel like you're,
(08:53):
I don't know, like at the basin
of some stream in Baja.- Yeah. Yeah.
- It's like you're at an estuary
and like fairies starts singing.
- It's estuary food for sure.- It's estuary food
and it is delicious.- Yeah.
- And it's so funny to watch
your dining companions knock it back.
I think that it does havethat element of curiosity
and it's interesting, but it'salso objectively delicious.
(09:16):
It's interesting food that works.
- And fun to drink out of-- And it's fun
and it's interactive.
And there were a lot ofinteractive experiences
throughout those 12 courses.
But some of them wereless delicious than others
and some of them did becomea little bit gimmicky.
But overall, what I liked about ILIS
is that it made me feel likea little bit of a cave person.
And all I ever want
(09:37):
in a dining experience-- Sure.
- Or maybe in my life is like,
I don't know, to like wanderaround in a loin cloth
and like eat tuna.
So
at ILIS we got a little bit of that.
We also got to scrape the tuna carcasses.
- No, we each had anoyster shell to scrape
the ribs- It's our cave man tool.
And they were alsosharpened, they told us.
(10:00):
One edge of that oystershell was sharpened
and you could really tell the difference.
And so each of us reachedinto the middle of the table
and scraped our portions of tuna.
- And of course, you know,
it's covered in like preservedstrawberry yuzu kosho,
like it's not just tuna.
Like there-- Which we had, by the way,
already seen in the crudites
of that meal.- With the crudites,
of course, that's right.- And so we were already
(10:20):
a little, you know, unimpressed
by the use of kosho.- That didn't bother me
so much that we had seen it already.
But, so during tuna one,
Arden said, "I'm having fun",interesting food is fun,
like the interactiveelement was the cool thing.
And also, you know,
it's raw tuna, how bad could it be?
(10:41):
Then fast forward, not theimmediate course after,
I want to say maybe twoor three courses later,
does that sound right?- It was definitely
at least three courses later.- Yeah.
We get a reprise of the tuna.- Tuna reprise.
Not entirely welcome.What did you all think?
- Well it said it was supposed to be
the cooked version of that,
but the presentation is very similar,
(11:03):
so you get the rib again.
- Yeah.- And you're scraping again.
And it has a different topping.
But the effect of that immersionis no longer satisfying,
because we're like, we did this already.
- Yeah it was such a similardish and it was so weird.
Fine dining places like neverrepeat ingredients really.
(11:24):
And they repeated like awhole dish, pretty much.
It's a different condiment
on top.- It was the same dish.
We're ready for something else.
- It almost came off as a mistake.
And what was interesting about that meal
is there was a progression
of what started as reallyinteresting dishes,
like that clam up front,
and then it got slowlyless and less interesting.
- Yeah.- And the grand finale was...
- Roast chicken.
(11:45):
- Roast chicken.- Roast chicken.
- Objectively the least interesting food
in the history of food.- It is-
- Roast chicken.- However,
it was a perfectly cooked-- It was.
- Chicken, it was so juicy,
you tap that thing with your fork.
- So that's one type of interesting food.
But ILIS is more reflective of like
a certain fine dining, we'regoing to give you a sunflower
(12:08):
and it's going to havecaviar on top of it.
The other side ofinteresting food is the more,
every man, wine bar,place that just looks like
it might exist in your neighborhood,
but really there's like a chef in the back
cooking up something with aningredient called Job's Tears,
(12:30):
which is a grain bearingplant in the grass family.
- Oh, so good to know.
- Can you think of aplace you've been recently
that fits that category?
- That's interesting winebar or just a wine bar?
- Interesting wine bar.
- Interesting wine baror wine bar adjacent,
just like the kind oflike cool casual place
doing interesting food
with menus that havethree ingredients on them
(12:51):
and that's the dish.
- And there's no way you'redrinking Sancerre there.
- Yeah. No Sancerre allowed.- No.
- For me the big one is Baby Bistro in LA,
which is kind of an adorable name,
but it's a wine bar, it's in Echo Park.
You feel like you're insomeone's green little bungalow.
All of the servers introduce themselves
and they have wines you'vereally never heard of.
(13:12):
And like one of the servers has gone
and like lived on thevineyard for three weeks
and can tell you all about it.- Of course.
- And they have one of these menus
that changes almost daily.
And the menu, as you said before,
barely tells you anything about each dish.
But like I ate a dish there
that was so interesting and delicious,
I'm still thinking about ita month and a half later.
(13:33):
It's tofu, it's turnip, it's raspberry.
What a weird combination.- Yeah.
- And on the menu it probably just said
like, "Tofu, turnip, raspberry".
- It doesn't say raspberries,I've seen the menu.
It says, "Tofu turnips",
and it's $19.- Wow.
- And then it was a surprise raspberry.
And for whatever reason thetartness of the raspberry-
- Yeah.- It's like this soft tofu,
(13:54):
really brings it together.
I mean that restaurant is weird,
they're doing weird stuff.
Shout out to Miles Thompson, the chef.
- We reached out to the Baby Bistro team
and got a quote from thechef there, Miles Thompson.
And we asked, "Why are youdrawn to making this food,
rather than say classics?".
And what Miles said is, "In a nutshell,
I like the freedom of creation
(14:15):
and the style of food that I make.
I'll use classicaltechniques/sauces/ratios,
but not having to adherestrictly to the established rules
or being bound to the specificborders of a classic dish
means I get to inflect
a much more personal touch tothe food that I'm creating.
That's not to say everythingworks all the time,
it doesn't".
- It seems to be all aboutthat personal touch, right?
(14:37):
Just the chef expressingsomething with their food.
All right I'm curious, what is it about,
so you're a fan of, you'rea big fan of Baby Bistro.
How does the food make you feel?
Like why do you like that
style of food?- Do you feel Miles'
personal touch?
- I feel Miles' personal touch,
but I also do find that it's,
ultimately I've had a comforting meal,
that's why I like it.
And ultimately when people go out to eat,
(14:58):
they're looking forsatisfaction, comfort, pleasure.
And when we think of likeyour classic American diner
or your TGI Fridays or whatever,
you're going to be satisfied.
And I think that the end result
of a successful interesting meal
will leave you feeling comfortable,
(15:20):
will leave you feeling satisfied.
- Satisfied with the perk perhaps of,
"Oh my God, I've never had raspberry,
turnip and tofu together".
- What interesting is all about
is taking techniques andflavors and ingredients
and doing unexpected things with them.
And that's not to say
that we're like exoticizing or othering
(15:42):
ingredients that we don't see very often.
You know, the average diner
probably isn't even seeinglike venison or turnip
or like some certain typesof spices out so much.
But it's about what areyou doing with those
and how delicious can you make them.
- Yeah it's not interesting
just because of any one ingredient.
- Yes.- It's interesting
usually because it's just nothing,
(16:03):
no combination you've ever seen before.
- It all comes back to is this art,
is interesting food art?
And I think the answer is of course it is.
And that's so exciting,
it's great to experienceart that you can eat.
- Yeah.- You know? We're eating art.
- So where do you think
this interesting food is coming from?
Because it's not just thecategory of fine dining,
it's not just the menu. You know?
(16:24):
- So the history of interestingfood is the history of food,
or the history of inventivefood is a history of food.
Right? 'Cause every food was inventive
at some point.- Yeah.
- Your hamburgers, your hotdogs, those were all invented,
right?- That would've been
such a sick thing to bearound for the first hot dog.
- I know.- And you were like,
"This hot dog is so interesting".
- Hot dogs by the way,one of my favorite foods.
- Totally agree.- Not that interesting.
- No, but perfect.
(16:45):
- But if we really want to start
talking about interesting food
as it's presented in restaurants today,
we can go back to maybe the 1960s, 1970s
to the Nouvelle Cuisinemovement in France,
which I think was a reaction
to kind of the heavier, less healthy
traditional cuisine in France.
- Gloopy mother sauces.- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So you had Nouvelle Cuisine,
(17:06):
there were 10 commandments
for the Nouvelle Cuisine movement.
And I don't remember most of them,
I do remember the 10th, something like it,
it was like, "You will be inventive".
- You will.- That was something like
the 10th commandment, right?- It's a mandate.
- Whoa. Okay.- Yeah.
So that's the Nouvelle Cuisine movement.
And then what happens inAmerica right after that-
- We're talking seventies, eighties-
- Yeah, you're using-- We're talking sixties-
(17:26):
seventies actually.- You're using fresh
American ingredients.
And then you're putting them together
in somewhat novel combinations,
they are mostly Europeaninspired combinations
at that time.- Yes.
- But now today, newAmerican food still exists,
unfortunately we don'thave a better term for it.
- Yeah.- And it is,
everything fits under that.- Yeah.
- And new American food and inventive food
are kind of synonymous todayunder new American food.
(17:48):
We put places like Bonnie's,
a Cantonese Americanrestaurant in Williamsburg.
- That's new American food.
- That's new American food.- They call themselves
Cantonese American.
- Cantonese American.- Yeah, yeah.
- But at the same time it is,
it's new American.- Of course.
Absolutely.- But also Union Square Cafe,
Danny Meyer's Union Square Cafe.
- Yeah.- New American food.
But that started, you know,
(18:09):
back around the 1970s.- Yeah.
- Chez Panisse.- Yeah.
- You had the Four Seasons in New York.
Arden, you are from California,
you're from the birthplace
of new American food, right?- California.
- What do you know about Spago?
What do you know about Spago?- California.
Oh, you want to talk about Wolfgang Puck?
- Yeah. Yeah.- Absolutely.
- Wolfgang Puck opened Spago,
he put smoked salmon onpizza and LA went berserk.
(18:31):
- People lost their mind.- Specifically Beverly Hills,
they were like, "Oh my God,
this is delish".- Yeah. Let's pause.
That's interesting food, right?
- That was interesting foodwhen it was first unleashed.
But I still think it's interesting
to put smoked salmon on pizza.
That's an unheard of
combination- You ordering it?
- Me personally? Yeah, I'm ordering it.
I want to, I got to...- She wants it.
- You can't go to Spago and notget the smoked salmon pizza.
(18:53):
- There's no tomato sauce on it, right?
- No.- Okay, all right.
- But what's interesting about Spago
is that it's still going.- Yeah.
- It's not like youcan't get a reservation,
but you roll into thatBeverly Hills restaurant
and it is packed.
- Yeah. Yeah.- With all demographics,
who want to experience
like the birthplace of new American food
in Southern California.
(19:14):
I was going to say California,but we can't forget about
the Bay area.- We can't forget about them,
that's right,
they would be so mad at you.- They're so serious.
- [Hannah] They wouldget really mad at you.
- They would get upset with me.
But Spago was, you know,using really local vegetables,
they were going to the SantaMonica farmer's market.
- Yeah.- And putting together
these beautifully plated
fresh dishes.- Yeah.
(19:35):
- That were sort of Calitale.
And they're still doingthe exact same thing.
And I think that it now feels stale,
which is interesting.- It's no longer interesting.
- New American feels old.- Yeah.
Well people roll their eyes.- But that is...
Right, they roll their eyes.
And like when we writeabout new American food,
we try not to use that word.- Because why?
- Because it's such acatchall for everything
(19:58):
that it doesn't describe much at all.
- Yeah.- I think experimental
is often more utilitarian.
Like Bridges is experimental in New York.
- And Bridges in Chinatown
is a restaurant from someonewho used to work at Estela,
which is also in New York on Houston.
And I think of Estela aslike, at least in New York,
(20:21):
an early father of theinteresting food movement.
- Absolutely. But bothof those restaurants,
I would put like, I thinkthey are in the direct lineage
of this new American movement.
- For sure.- But yes, Estela,
you want to talk about Estela?
It's one of your favoriterestaurants, I know.
- The chefs at Estela do this thing
that is kind of like hide and go seeky,
(20:41):
like they cover their dishes with,
if it's herbs, maybeit's like thinly sliced,
raw buttoned mushrooms,
such that you do notknow what's underneath.
And so in order to eat it, you got to dig,
you become an archeologist.
And that's fun. That's immersive to me.
Do you guys like Estela? Am I alone?
- I want it to be more interesting.
I want it to be more inventive.
(21:03):
I really thought Estela,
I thought Estela was really cool
like 10 years ago, right?- Totally. Yeah.
- But now do I reallywant to go to Estela?
Not really.- So Estela-
- I like it. I like it a lot.- Is no longer the
hot, new interesting place,
but Bridges is.- Right.
- Yes.- And what's similar
about both of these restaurants
is that they're both, Iwould say, sexy, right?
- Yeah.- They're sexy restaurants
you would go to for like a big date night,
(21:24):
the lighting is moody, I think there's
candles at both restaurants.- Yeah.
- And it's a place where you want to see
and be seen a little bit.
I would say interesting foodis not your top priority there,
it's impressing your date,it's having a romantic meal,
it's feeling like
a real big bad New Yorker.- Right.
- Whereas at a restaurant like ILIS,
(21:45):
you're like, "I'm going todo a tasting menu tonight",
you're there to eat.- Yeah.
- And maybe like celebratea big anniversary.
But it's not about like thesex appeal of the restaurant.
- Yeah.- It's about the food.
- So who is this food for?
Like who is going to gravitatetowards these restaurants
serving quote unquote,"Interesting", food?
Whether or not that,"Interesting", food is good.
(22:06):
- That's something Ithink about all the time,
'cause I have to evaluatethese restaurants,
right? For my job.- Yeah.
- I have to review them
and then I have to givethem a rating, right?
And for some of them,
like if you're lookingfor a straightforward meal
and you just want a burger,
you are going to giveThe Four Horseman a 6.5.
- That's right, it's not for you.
- Right.- Yeah.
- And so I need to figure outwho's The Four Horseman for
(22:27):
and it is for people who wantto try something interesting.
I mean, it sounds basic,but it's the truth,
people who want to eat something cool.
It's kind of a genreof dining that's like,
you're not hungry.
- We're picking, we're picking.
- You're not going, you're hungry,
you're not going there'cause you're hungry,
you're going there 'causeyou want to try something new
for the experience.- Yeah.
- It's experiential dining.
(22:48):
It's like recreational dining.- For sure. It's leisure.
- It's modern day hot cuisineis what it is. You know?
And it attracts people
who might call themselvesfoodies, food snobs,
that kind of thing.- Yeah.
- That's not to say they alsocan't get down and dirty-
- Sure.- With a burger
and some spinach dip at Hillstone.
Because these days I think we have
(23:10):
like this stratification of
everyone likes every type of restaurant.
- Yeah.- Even the foodies
are eating burgers.- Yeah.
I think it's for people who like jazz.
I think it's for people who like art.
I think it's-- Okay. It's for people
who don't like jazz too.- Okay sure.
- It's for everybody.- You love jazz.
(23:31):
- It's for people who likechasing the hot restaurants
and like-- Yeah.
- And like being on top of what's new
and hot and interesting.
- It's for people who demandmore from their small plates.
It's for people who are boredof a little ricotta on toast.
- [Bryan] If you're enjoying this episode,
make sure to follow, like, subscribe
(23:53):
to, "Restaurant People", on YouTube
and all your preferred podcast platforms
so you don't miss an episode.
- So if interesting food is new to you
or you want to figure out
like your way in
to this genre,
we have some advice.
We broke out quote unquote,"Interesting", food restaurants
(24:13):
into different tiers
based on how interesting they really are.
What's the first tier?
- Okay so these tiers, Ifeel like they'll help you
pick the right restaurant for you.
But also just help explain
what we mean when we say interesting food.
Interesting food
is more than just onekind of restaurant, right?
It's not just your fine dining.
So tier number one is,
(24:35):
we do things a little differently here.
- We do things
a little differently here.- Why do we
call it that Hannah?- Just a little differently.
- What do we call it,
we do things a little differently here?
- Because like it'srecognizable with a twist.
It's a pizza, but it'sa whole wheat crust.
And they're slapping somecorn on it or something.
- And they're serving a family style.
(24:57):
- And a lot of these are
some of our reallyhighly rated restaurants
across the country.- Yeah.
- Places that do thingsa little differently,
but you still kind ofknow what you're in for.
Can you think of some examples here?
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tatiana, one of ourhighest rated restaurants
in New York City.- Yeah. Yeah.
- We do things-- The highest rated restaurant
in New York City.
- We do things a little differently?
- Yeah.- Yeah.
(25:17):
How would you describe Tatiana?
- Well Tatiana is arestaurant in Lincoln Center.
- On the Upper West Side.- On the Upper West Side.
That is taking sort of likeclassic New York iconic dishes,
like a beef patty, like pastrami
and creating something newout of those touchpoints.
- Yes.- So there's this like
pastrami suya dish, islike the big showstopper.
(25:41):
And it is a blend of cultures, cuisines,
often based on West Africanfood or Caribbean food
and doing something new.
- Other New York Cityrestaurants we have in this tier,
I'll just rattle off-- Yeah, rat them all.
- C As In Charlie,
which is a Korean inspired restaurant
in NoHo in New York City.
(26:02):
There's Superiority Burger.
- Yeah, that's a really good one.
- Superiority Burger,everyone's favorite restaurant
to say is their favorite restaurant.
You know what I mean?
Or at least it was like five years ago.
"What's your favorite restaurant?"
"Superiority Burger."
It was just a good answer.- Especially industry people.
Yeah.- Yeah.
Superiority Burger though, we're fans.
Thai Diner, we're huge fans
of Thai Diner.- That's
totally in this category.
- What else?- It's a breakfast sandwich,
(26:23):
but it's made of roti.- Yeah.
- Tier two is, we're calling ambidextrous.
- Ambidextrous.- So these are restaurants
that can go kind of either way.
They could be totally interesting,
depending on what you order;
Or you can bring your pickiest friend
and they won't be freaked out.
- Arden, do you have any guesses
as to which New York City or otherwise
(26:44):
restaurants might be on this list?
- Well I think the perfect example of this
is The Four Horsemen
in Williamsburg.- Oh interesting.
- And that's because
I went there recentlywith a friend of mine
who's a little picky.
- Yeah. Yeah.- Little picky.
And we still had an excellent meal of,
you know, we had somesalad, we had some crudo.
- Sure.- We had some
(27:05):
bread with your cheffedup butter of sorts.
And like nothing wasparticularly so interesting.
Would I have liked to eat,
you know, the pork chop orlike the head-on prawns,
which don't even sound that interesting,
but you know that at FourHorsemen they will be
because they're doing
freaky stuff to them.- Yeah.
- But I think it's ambidextrous
because it can go bothways, it can do a lot.
(27:28):
- The thing about The Four Horsemen is
the menu changes likeevery two weeks or so,
you never really know how often.
So yeah, depending on themenu, it could be in this tier.
- There's a place in Chicagocalled Cellar Door Provisions
that our team likes a lot over there.
And we reached out to thechef and co-owner there,
whose name is Ethan.
(27:49):
And Ethan comes from afine dining background,
but loves bistro style foods.
So on the menu you're going tohave cured sun gold tomatoes
in fortified tomato water, obviously,
with like perilla jolais.
But you're also going to get a burger
with aioli and pickled Fresnos
and like very specific greens.
And that to me reads likean ambidextrous restaurant
(28:11):
because you could bring yourfrightened little friend
and they'll be like,"Give me that burger".
And they'll be like,
"Wow, can you believe thegreens on this thing?".
But it's still withinthe wheelhouse of comfort
and like ease for them,
while you eat your tomato water
or whatever.- It sounds like
it's new American done right.
Right? It's like-- Yes.
(28:31):
- You have your tomatoes butthey're in fortified water.
And it's like all ofthese recognizable things
that have really gotten special treatment.
- And so we asked Ethan, you know,
how do you balance
prioritizing food that'sinteresting to you
versus interesting to the guest
and the diners at large?
And Ethan said, "We try tobegin with dishes that excite us
(28:53):
and then consider how a dinerwould respond to the thing.
How challenging will they find the dish?
We love food that mightfeel outwardly foreign,
but instantly familiar andappealing as soon as you eat it".
I think that's a reallygood summary of like,
you look at it and you'relike, what are those layers?
What are those leafs doing there?
But the feeling of eatingit, like as a whole,
(29:15):
is familiar somehow.
- Yeah. There have to besome familiar elements
for you to connect to,like for it to have,
for you to have a response, right? Or no?
- Yeah, I think so. Becausethen you're just like
in ILIS territory againand again and again.
Which may or may not be satisfying,
but it's a different type of satisfying.
- Arden, you know this place well,
it is Four Horsemen adjacent,
it's from the peoplebehind Penny, it is Claud.
(29:38):
Claud is a restaurant slashwine bar in the East Village
in a basement below itssister restaurant Penny.
It is European inspiredand it's a fun place.
- Claud.- Claud. Ambidextrous.
Arden, would you agree with that?
Is Claud somewhere you could go
and have maybe a kind of wacky meal
and then also just a safe meal?
- Claud's a great example
(29:58):
because they have Agnolotti,
but they're loaded with chicken liver,
which-- Yeah.
That's a great example.- You know,
might freak some people out,
but it's so delicious and familiar.
But a little bit different, it's got that
irony taste to it.- Yeah.
- But they also do like areally perfect roast chicken
which feels safe.- And a perfect deviled cake.
- [Arden] And a nice chocolate cake,
which is all about nostalgia.
- Yeah.- I think it has like
(30:19):
the elements of nostalgia and pleasure.
And then a little bit oflike playfulness and like,
"We did that", wink wink.- Yeah.
- And then they run away.
- There's another place in Austin
that I think falls into this category
that's called Le Calamar.- Oh.
- And it's like, as ourwriter Nikolai described,
sort of like fairlyclassical French stuff,
(30:40):
but nothing feels like over tweezy.
And there's some twists,
like a de-boned chicken wing
stuffed with huitlacocheand chicken mousseline.
It's sort of like a superengineered chicken wing.
You're like, "I've hadchicken wings before,
but never like that".
You know, the thesisof his review is like,
fancy food doesn't need to feel fussy.
And actually I think that that kind of,
(31:01):
you know, captures whatwe're talking about.
With great interesting food,
it's fancy, it's not fussy.
Tier three is my favorite.
- Well then let's take a look at it.
Why is tier three
your favorite first off?- 'Cause it's like,
it's the one we've been talkingabout the most, I think.
Tier three, Riddle Foods.- Riddle Foods,
that's the title we settledon, it's a working title.
- It's a working title.- Riddle Foods.
It's kind of like you eatsomething and you're like, "Oh,
(31:22):
oh, aha. Mm.
Hey, that's interesting".
Isn't that this one?- Hmm. Hmm.
- Hmm.- Neat.
Look at that, that's neat.- Oh.
- And the menu couldsatisfy your picky friend,
but they're not reallythe best people to bring,
like don't bring yourpicky friend actually.
All of these restaurants,
almost all of these restaurantshave house sourdough
(31:44):
and it probably comeswith like Koji butter.
The menu is going to be maximum 90 words.
You don't know what's astarter, what's an entree.
And the server is going to say
you should order two tothree small plates a person.
- Yeah you're lost, the menu is providing
minimal assistance here.- Nothing.
(32:04):
- You just have no ideawhat you're ordering.
- It's like plum comma beet.
- Exactly.- And it's $19.
- Yes. Always $19 at least.- At least $19.
- There's a cafe in LA called Destroyer,
it's only breakfast, lunch.
And you could easily go there
and eat like yogurt andblueberries, or so you think,
but like the blueberries have been cured.
(32:25):
- Sure.- And like
you're getting thechicken schnitzel salad,
like that's not yourstandard chicken schnitzel,
they've done things to it
that like I can't even describe.
- Whoa.- It's sort of space food.
And it's from this chef Jordan Khan,
who also did Vespertine and Meteora,
two very high-end fine dining restaurants
that our team in LA does not love.
(32:46):
But we really like Destroyerbecause it's interesting
but just familiar enough.
- Okay.- Right?
And you can get like a galette,
a savory galette or a sandwich
and everything's going tobe a little wackadoodle.
- Yeah.- But just enough.
And by looking at the menu,you would have no idea,
you would think you're justgetting blueberries and yogurt.
(33:09):
- There's a place in Miami called Recoveco
that our editor Ryan, who reviewed it,
is just absolutely over the moon about.
He said it was a place
that he wants to go toagain and again and again,
because you never knowwhat you're going to get
and it feels surprising.
- What kind of food do they do?
- It's the same genre of likewhat we're talking about,
it's sort of new American,
(33:29):
but that's not really thebest way to describe it.
- Okay. Jimmy Nardello peppers,
any Jimmy Nards on the menu?- For sure, there's going to be
some JNs.
- What else?- 'Tis the season.
- Wax beans?- Some Jonathan Nardos.
- Dandelion greens perhaps?- Yeah, probably.
Probably dandy greens.
Another tier three Riddle Food restaurant
is Elske in Chicago, whichhas a 9.0 on our site
and is on The 25 BestRestaurants in Chicago guide.
(33:53):
Like there's a tasting menu,but it's also a la carte.
You can start with atea, the tasting menu,
you have to start with a teaof smoked fruits, for example.
I'm really excited to go, I'm going soon.
- Other New York City restaurants
that debatably fit into this category,
I'm not a hundred percent sure
with these.- Okay.
- Atoboy. Do you knowAtoboy, the inventive Korean
(34:13):
inspired restaurant- Yeah, I like that place.
- From the people behind Atomix
in New York City.- Yeah.
- You also have another one called Cormia,
a relatively new one.- Yeah.
- In Chinatown in New York.- Yep.
- That is Northern Mexican inspired.
And they do a really cool tasting menu
that I really want to try again,
even though I think I've had it twice now.
- You want to go back for more?
- Yeah. You might get something like
(34:34):
a sope with English peas
and raw shrimp.- Yeah. Yeah.
- And it's really good.
Moving on, tier four.
- Yeah.- Tier four, we have
Chef Recommends.- Chef Recommends.
You eat it this way?- Yeah.
- Chef Recommends that you must
bounce up and down three timesand shake your little butt
(34:55):
before you enjoy your goose liver.
- I mean, Meteora in LA,which I just mentioned
from the same chef asDestroyer, which we like a lot,
Meteora we like less so.
The chef describes it as
a prehistoric restaurant.- Oh my God.
- Which is so-- Get a life.
- Exactly. Get a life.
And the inside feels tiluminous,
like it feels like a TiLumi restaurant.
(35:17):
But I think they're going for like,
"The Land Before Time".- Yeah.
- While I was there, I was served salt
that I was told was sea water
that had been filteredthrough a coconut husk.
- Wait, I feel like I've heard about this.
- It's an absurd restaurant.
But that salt was so salty,
I was thirsty for days.- Sure. Yeah.
- It was an uncomfortable
(35:38):
dining experience.- Yeah. Yeah.
- And there was no pleasureto be had whatsoever.
- Yeah.- And it's fine dining,
so it was expensive, right?- Yeah.
- But chef recommended
a lot of things.- Yeah.
- Yeah, the highest stakes
tend to be the most expensive.
- Yeah.- And yeah, like,
yeah usually the mostself-indulgent restaurants.
- This is ego food.
(35:59):
Oh my God, yeah.- Yeah. It can be ego food.
But something like,
there are a few places inNew York that we do like
and they're both fine dining.- Yeah.
- I would say Aska
is another one of thosenew Nordic restaurants
in Williamsburg.- Yeah.
- I think they do itwithout going over the top,
it's still enjoyable.- Yeah.
- Even if you are going to windup eating moss or something.
- Totally.- And then there is Atomix,
(36:22):
the sister restaurant of Atoboy.
It is the fine dining place in
the nomad neighborhood of New York City,
just in a basement of this townhouse.
I think there's roughly 12seats around the counter.
But it's a very inventive,
Korean inspired tasting menu.- Yeah.
- I wouldn't even call it Korean food,
because it's not recognizably Korean food.
(36:43):
There are a lot of Korean flavors.
- Sure.- It's Korean inspired,
but really it's experimental food
is what I would call it.- Yeah.
- And they do just a really good job
of just telling this story,this narrative with this food
and these note cards thatthey pass out along with it.
- Yeah.- It's an experience for sure.
- I mean, I think...
Right, at this tier four,
the experience has tobe part of your meal.
(37:05):
Like it cannot just beyou're ingesting food.
- Yeah. They got to sell you on it.
- It's a story I guess.
And that's where interestingfood can be very eye rolly
and ridiculous.- Yeah. They got to pull you in
and make sure you're all on the same page
and like make sure you know
what story you're listening to or reading.
- Yeah. And sometimes it,
you're like, I smell the ,
(37:25):
I smell that fart.
And sometimes you're like,
oh my God, I'm ready.- Yeah.
- I'll go find somesnails with you tomorrow.
- So do you think thereis ultimately this divide
between sustenance restaurants,
or restaurants you go to
'cause you're hungry-- Yes.
- And then recreation restaurants?
- This is brain restaurants.- Absolutely.
This is brain restaurants.- Brain restaurants.
And obviously-- This is culture restaurants-
- It's a gray area.- This is clout restaurant.
(37:47):
- Yeah.- Yeah.
- There's a gray area,there's some overlap
and maybe that gray area overlap
has some of the most popular,highest rated restaurants,
at least on our site,
I think it does.- For sure. Yeah, tier ones.
- We could have an even longer discussion
about how can interestingfood stay interesting.
Can it? Like no, right?
- Probably not because it becomes
recognizable and cliche.- Cliche.
- And it's that-- Salmon on Pizza
is a really good example.- Yeah.
(38:09):
- It's like, yeah I'veseen it before, I get it.
- But there's still ways
for that restaurant to survive, Spago.
- Spago.- It becomes a classic,
but it's no longer interesting.
- Yeah. The lifecycle ofan interesting restaurant.
- But then it's like, is it boring? Maybe.
- Only to snobs like us.
- Totally. Snobs like us.- Only to snobs like us.
(38:32):
- Yeah.- We sure do hate ourselves.
- If you want to find out more restaurants
that are pushing boundaries,
for better or for worse,in your neighborhood,
check out our reviews andguides on TheInfatuation.com
or @Infatuation on Instagram
or @TheInfatuation on TikTok.
(38:54):
I'm Hannah.- I'm Bryan.
Arden, thank you so muchfor joining us today.
This was, "Restaurant People",
a show from, "Infatuation".
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