October 1, 2025 • 38 mins
What goes into great restaurant service? In this episode of Restaurant People, Bryan and Hannah are joined by former Hillstone server (and current sommelier and hospitality expert) Steven Bono to discuss the BTS of service, fine dining vs. neighborhood spots, and the one question you should never ask your server.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
- So Hannah, your firstHillstone experience yesterday.
Did it change the wayyou look at restaurants,
change the way you think about service?
- It didn't change theway I think about service.
But I'll tell you, six monthsfrom now, six years from now,
I'm going to rememberthat Hillstone experience.
And I'm going to remember Alexa,
she carried four martinis by herself.
- That was so impressive.- Two in one hand,
(00:21):
if you order a martini abouthalfway through your martini,
a server will come overand switch out the glass
and give you a new chilledglass for your martini.
- Yeah, the martiniglass swap, a very nice--
- A really nice touch.
A really nice touch.
Hi, I am Hannah Albertine,Senior Editor at Infatuation.
(00:43):
And if there's free breadleftover at the end of the meal,
will you put it in my doggy bag please
so I can eat it later for breakfast?
- And I'm Bryan Kim, editoriallead for Infatuation in NYC,
and I'm a sucker forcomplimentary sparkling water.
- And this is RestaurantPeople, the show for people
who eat at restaurantssometimes from Infatuation.
- Today on Restaurant Peoplewe're talking about service.
(01:04):
We've all seen the mysterious server
in all black effortlesslywaiting at a party of 15.
But what actually goes into their job
that we don't know about?
- First up, we'll get into
what good restaurant service really is
and how it impacts your dining experience.
Then we'll get some
behind the scenes insightfrom a current server
to help you understand dining etiquette.
- Finally, we'll discuss restaurants
that have excellent service,whether you're looking
(01:25):
for a fine dining experienceor a casual mom and pop,
all this and more on today'sepisode of Restaurant People.
Why are you so excitedabout service as a topic?
- I didn't really careabout service that much
years ago when I first started writing
about food and restaurants.
But then I started to think about service
(01:46):
as not just is this person,you know, bringing plates,
collecting plates in a timely manner,
but more about like the humanelement of a restaurant.
- What do you mean the human element?
- No matter what kindof restaurant you're in,
service is the reasonwe go out to eat at all.
Like if you want justfood you didn't make,
you're getting takeout, bro.
(02:06):
- And then let's say youreplace all the service
with robots, you'regoing to lose something.
But that's still a restaurant
and people might still goto that robot restaurant.
Don't go to robot restaurants.
- You want to go to a robot restaurant?
- I don't want to go to robot restaurants.
But what I'm saying isI don't think service
is obviously not a hundredpercent of why we go
to restaurants or even the main reason.
But yeah, I agree with you.
It is a big reason of whywe go to a restaurant.
(02:27):
- Bryan, you have workedin restaurants before,
mostly on the bartendingside, if I do recall.
So what do you think,
what does service actually mean to you?
- When you provide good service
you're making people feel welcome
and wanted in the establishment.
- And acknowledged.
It's like, hey, you're a person.
You exist, you're in this room.
- Yeah, that's the best.
That's the best part.
(02:47):
- As a diner, it suckswhen you walk in somewhere
and no one even looks at you.
- The best, like the opposite of that.
And the best thing is when you walk in
and someone's like, welcome back.
- Yeah.
Not have you dined with us before?
But hey, welcome back.
Hey, nice to see you.
- So the fundamentals of service,I think we can break down
to just the technical aspects
(03:08):
of you are greeted at the door,you're seated at your table,
you're given a water,you're given your menus,
your order is taken,you're plates are cleared,
and then you're given your check, right?
- Yeah, that seems right.
Pretty much.
- That's service.- That's service.
- And then you're shown the door.
They say, get out of here.
- That's service like bare bones,
no flare, no surprise and delight.
(03:29):
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But you can do anything.
You can jazz up any of those things
to make it exceptional service.
- And to be clear, if a restaurantis just doing bare bones,
that doesn't mean it's a bad restaurant.
It might be appropriate for that.
Whatever style of restaurant it is.
Like if it's just likeyour neighborhood pub,
that's great, that's fine.
- So I think it's commonlyunderstood, accepted
(03:52):
that fine dining restaurantsoffer the best service.
- Mm.- Maybe they do,
maybe they don't.
The absolute highest level of service.
Why do you think that is?
What is fine dining service?
What can you expect?
- Fine dining service, I thinkis supposed to be invisible.
Like there's someonestanding near your table
(04:12):
so that when you go to the bathroom,
they're folding your napkin,when you've finished your wine
or you even have like one moresip, someone's coming over
and they say, wouldyou like another glass?
Like they're supposedto sort of anticipate
all of your needs, haveeverything on time.
And that's my leastfavorite kind of service.
- Really?- Yeah.
(04:33):
- Wait, wait, wait, wait.
But you gave La Bernadin inMidtown such a high rating
and I'm pretty sure yousay such nice things
about the service and it isexactly what you just described.
- Yeah, because they're doing everything
technically to perfection.
But I remember the people feeling human,
like they were really warm,
(04:53):
so they were like doing theirjob at the highest level,
but they didn't feel like robots.
- Right, right, right.- Because if you just feel
like a robot, I'm like, it's very weird.
I feel weird.
At that level, there'ssome like really ridiculous
things that are happening.
Like they're on the internet.
Everyone can find this document.
There is the 2023 ForbesTravel Guide Standards.
(05:17):
And if I could just readyou, I have them on my phone.
- Let's hear it.
- I'm just going to read you some of them.
All right, once the guest is seated,
the table is politelygreeted within one minute,
parentheses efficiency.
So this standard isnot about friendliness,
it's just about are youdoing this efficiently?
Another rule,
a distinctive culinary giftfrom the chef is delivered
(05:39):
to the table at somepoint during the meal.
- I mean, it does sound nice.
- That's weird.
Okay, we'll keep going.
Oh, food presentations are approachable
and not difficult to eat.
However, dishes are interesting to eat
and provide varying contrasts of texture.
- I hate it when thingsare difficult to eat.
You're trying to eatsomething, you're like,
(05:59):
ah, how do I eat this?
- Okay, one more thing.
In handling all dishes, glasses,
and bottles, staff isefficient, yet discreet
and always precise andprofessional in their movements
and use trays as appropriate.
- Hmm.
- Are you thinking about trays?
'Cause I'm thinking about trays.
- Yeah, I've used alot of trays in my day.
(06:20):
- Totally.
Yesterday when we had lunch at Hillstone,
you asked our server Alexa,she told us her name.
And Alexa said, I don't do trays
because I find it harder to use.
- I think it was a company policy.
- Hillstone has a lot of company policies
you were saying.
- So many.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(06:40):
You have to read the guidelines.
I mean, if we're justtalking, they have guidelines
for diners and then I thinkthey also have guidelines.
They must for service
'cause the servicethere is so exceptional.
Hillstone is a national restaurant chain.
I want to say some 40locations across the country
from Montecito to Palm Beach.
It goes by various names.
(07:01):
Hillstone, Houston's, R+D Kitchen,
Honor Bar, they're all Hillstone.
In the end, they're allpretty much Hillstone.
I reviewed the Hillstone in New York City
and I gave it a very goodrating despite the fact
that Hillstone, as everybody,well many people say,
is just business casual Applebee's.
But yes, the service is a huge part of it.
(07:22):
- I will go back because Iwas floored by the service.
Like, let's even just givesome examples from yesterday.
As soon as we arrived,we sat down in our booth
and the host immediately says, hey,
can I get you some water or another drink?
And what this host did waswrite down rather discreetly,
(07:43):
write down our drink order, put that piece
of paper face down on the table.
And then immediately Alexaour server, came over
and said, I see you havesome drinks you'd like,
let me go get them, isthere anything else?
And it was like seamless.
- No other host in any of therestaurant is going to take
your drink order when they seat you.
- It's such a simple thing,but it really, it tickled me.
- So Hannah, your firstHillstone experience yesterday.
(08:04):
Did it change the wayyou look at restaurants,
change the way you think about service?
- It didn't change theway I think about service,
but I'll tell you, Iwill six months from now,
six years from now, I'm going to remember
that Hillstone experience.
And I'm going to remember Alexa.
She carried four martinis by herself.
Two in one hand, at Hillstone,
(08:27):
if you order a martini abouthalfway through your martini,
a server will come overand switch out the glass
and give you a new chilledglass for your martini.
- Yeah, the martini glass swap
I often hear accredited to Hillstone.
I don't know if they inventedit, either way, a very nice--
- A really nice touch.
(08:49):
A really nice touch.
And we're going to get to talk
to someone who formerlyworked at Hillstone.
Hey, hey you.
Are you enjoying this episode?
You freaking better be.
But if you are, make sure to follow, like
and subscribe to RestaurantPeople on YouTube
and all of your preferredpodcast platforms
so you don't miss an episode.
(09:10):
- So calling in on theHam Phone right now,
we actually have aformer Hillstone server.
He not only served at Hillstone,
but also at a bunch ofother impressive restaurants
around New York City.
- Like where?- I'm talking
Eleven Madison Park.
- Heard of it.- Gramercy Tavern.
The River Cafe.
So joining us, we have Steven Bono Jr.
Currently Steven is a Chef Sommelier
(09:33):
at Jean Georges Chez Margaux
in the Meatpacking District.
Steven, welcome.
Thank you so much for joining us.
- [Steven] Thanks for having me.
Thanks for taking thetime to talk the minutia.
Let's do it.
- Steven, what else is inthe Hillstone handbook?
Like tell us about working there.
- What secrets can you tell us?
- What secrets can you give us?
- [Steven] I think what they look for
is genuine hospitalitarians.
(09:56):
- Hospitalitarian.
- Wow.
- [Steven] Like when you start
to do service at a high level,
you're not just your like vocab changes,
but the way you see interactand love people changes.
Like you are not the same.
I know that's a little woo woo.
- No, I get it.- But it's true
because I think the wayyou interact with the world
and not just like love languages and such,
(10:17):
but there's something that gases you up.
You become an adrenaline junkie
for taking care of people well.
But that martini thing
that I think you might'vespoken about already,
the martini exchange, the famous one.
There was a time wherepeople would just phone it in
and change out the cold glass.
Well, I was bringing the fresh garnish.
I think that was like,
(10:37):
everybody's going to gogive you a cold glass.
But what about those blue cheese olives
that you really wanted
to finish off that lasttwo ounces of your martini?
You could come and have theexact same thing at the exact
same time every single time.
And it was always goingto be what you expected.
Which I think was likenot just being known,
but also that you couldhave consistency in a city
that I think has very little consistency.
(10:59):
- Well that's exactly whatyou were talking about, Bryan.
That makes Hillstone, Hillstone.
Okay.
So it sounds like you havethis ethos about service.
Do you see a difference between service
and hospitality Steven?
- [Steven] We don't usethe word waiters, right?
- Why is that?
- [Steven] And it's just likeyou put the wait in waiter
like there's nothing, you'rejust kind of hanging around
(11:21):
like waiting for peopleto finish that bite.
I think when you're talking about,
and I don't know if I canreference all of the preamble,
but when you're talkingabout people kind of waiting
to fold your napkin, like that
to me is a waiter when you'retalking about like, oh,
how do I make this looknicer than when they left?
That's a server, right?
- It's like active versus passive action.
- [Steven] Yeah, it's alsolike a heart to serve.
(11:42):
There's this like weirdthing we're going to
try and put our finger on today.
That's like, does service gas you up?
Like does serving othersfeel like a noble calling?
I think that there's also something
to be said about someone who's, you know,
getting it right tailor made to you
and also carrying within thesafeties of your sustenance.
(12:02):
I'm looking after your food,looking after your beverage.
I'm looking after yourtime and money well spent.
- It's Super Bowlesque.
When you put it like that.
- [Steven] It's Super Bowl-ish for them.
This is the most expensivemeal they might ever have.
And fine dining and folks who aren't
used to tweezer food and used
to eating at fine dining establishments.
You do have a level ofexpectation when you're spending
a thousand dollars on one meal.
(12:23):
I think that that's what we started to do.
We started to kind of sit down
and say like, how do wemake this expand further?
So that's why, you know,it became the craze
for three Michelin stars tosend you home with breakfast
because frankly theexperience shouldn't finish.
You know, you're still reveling.
It's almost like a great filmor like Broadway production.
Like you're still talking about it.
It's still affecting younow you have got, you know,
(12:43):
artisanal granola that's gearedto your dietary restrictions
that you're eating the next day.
- Yeah, I actually went to EMP
and ate that granolafor like a month after.
- A month.
How much did they give you?
- I can't remember.
It's like a substantial bag though.
I think it's fair to saythat people probably go
to a place like EMP.
At least they think theygo for the food, right?
And then yes, the serviceis nice, but they're going
(13:05):
'cause they want to trythat really cool food.
Have you ever had anexperience where people come in
and they're kind ofsomething bums them out.
It might be the food, itmight be something else,
and then you just turned it all around.
You saved it with this service.
Has that ever happened?
- [Steven] So you know whensomeone's having a bad time
to answer your question directly,
like you can whiff it like a bad fart.
Like it's just like clear thatthey argued on the way in.
They have three hours of traffic
(13:25):
and if they're not going totell you about it, that's okay,
but you're going tofigure it out and then try
and make a move that makes them excited.
And whether it's just alittle extra attention
or what have you.
But I think the part that, Imean there's a good op, like,
well actually saving awoman's life in 24 at River,
where I had to give a Heimlichand it was her birthday.
- You gave the Heimlichto the the birthday woman?
(13:45):
- [Steven] Yeah, so she's choking.
I'm pouring some Chambolle-Musigny.
And it's clear.
It's clear that the guys at the table,
the patriarchs aren'tgoing to do anything.
- They never do.
- [Steven] I thinkthey're just embarrassed.
Their regulars.
And it's like their birthday.
It's her birthday and she just needed
to eat this filet so fast.
- Wait, sorry.
You weren't reprimanded
(14:06):
for saving this woman's life, were you?
- [Steven] No.
But that feeling
where like something inthe dining experience
has changed did.
And it was not my fault.
- Wow.- And then long story short
is that she, I justwrote her a little note.
- You said, I'm really sorry.
- [Steven] She didn'twant to talk to anybody
and it was clear that, youknow, the night had been over
(14:27):
and it will be marred by this experience.
I feel like that small gesture has nothing
to do with that moment.
I'll never know if it was recovered,
but at least she'll go home being like,
there's another memoryhere that has nothing to do
with me choking in front of 150 people.
It's actually about, wow,that was a good birthday.
- So I think let, thatactually transitions us nicely
to a little game we want to play about
(14:50):
how you would handle dining situations.
- We're going to name a scenario
and then you are going totell us, you know, hey,
if it's proper etiquette
and how you would handle that scenario.
First scenario a guest is choking on
something in your dining room.
Do you give them a Heimlich again
or this time are you just like, maybe not.
(15:10):
- [Steven] What an inconvenience.
I mean, gosh, we gave him a fork.
We gave him a knife, no.
Yeah, I mean that's, you know,
to me it's like fight or flight.
That's where all adrenaline junkies
in this restaurant industry,
if you're not rising to occasion,
if you're seeing someone cry,you know, like we see a lot
of, I'll see not just anniversaries,
but full blown divorces.
(15:32):
You know, like you're therefor, I don't know, arguably
some of people's most important times
and how you react to thatI think is important.
That's very diplomatic.
- Is that a yes To the Heimlich?
- [Steven] Yes, to the Heimlich.
- Sounds like you're obsessed
with giving people the Heinrich maneuver
or performing it.- Steven Bono Jr.
Obsessed with the Heimlich.
(15:52):
- Obsessed with the Heimlich.
- [Steven] I think ifMichael Scott said it right,
that you have to do itto, is it Funky Town?
- No, it's Staying Alive.- Staying alive.
- If a guest orders appetizers
and then waits 40 minutesbefore ordering entrees.
- [Steven] 40 minutes beforethey do order full entrees?
- That's villainous behavior Steven.
- Admit it.- I think if there's
(16:13):
a second round ofcocktails, I think you do
table times are real, I thinkthe fun thing that you start
to realize that like, I'mnot the host maitre d'
like if they need thistable back, that's on them.
And if it's is a pooled house,somebody's going to crush it
and selling Magnum somewhere else.
This person needs morechips, more cocktail sauce.
Like it comes out in the wash.
And the pros know that.
- All right.
- All right, next up, simple one.
(16:34):
I'm trying to help out,you know, we're done
with our appetizers.
- Oh Bryan.- I think I'm just going to
stack all these plates.
Yes or no?
Should I stack the plateson my table that are dirty?
- [Steven] I'm going to speak
from a Hillstone point of view here.
We are trained to pickup plates in a manner
(16:54):
that is sexy and clean.
- Sexy, whoa.
Blink twice if you're good.
- [Steven] So like we're trained
to pick up these platesin a way that makes sense.
And also doesn't giveanybody carpal tunnel.
There are smaller folks who,
and there's big old Hillstone plates
that are 25 pounds.
Please don't stack plates.
- Don't stack plates.
What about like modifications?
(17:16):
If it's not a dietary restriction
or vegetarianism, veganism, pescatarianism
and someone is trying
to modify their dish, what do you think?
- [Steven] Yeah, I think likeat places like Hillstone,
they've made it so easy.
So there's all a shorthanded acronym.
So if you're having a baked potato,
and I actually wouldlike extra sour cream,
(17:37):
but I don't want bacon.
But honestly, can youdo chives on the side?
It's great.- It's fun.
- [Steven] It's pot PotE no C double S side.
No pot E.
No B, double S, side C.
And it's like, you know, I just
wrote that down in one second.
So I think like for methere's places that, I mean,
I'm not making the food,I'm just ringing it in.
- But you know, the chefs are mad.
(17:58):
- [Steven] Yeah.
I mean they don't, you know,
if I've done it my job appropriately.
You know, it's all good.
- Steven, as a diner, do youthink it's appropriate for me
to ask a server, hey, should Iget the chicken or the steak?
Two very different things.
- [Steven] Yeah, I mean it, I think
what we're talkingabout from a macro point
(18:19):
of view is diner etiquette.
The question that we all hate the most is
what's good, right?
What's good here?
- You're not supposed to tell someone
else their preferences.
Like, that's a very strange question.
- [Steven] We've worked for two hours
just to get this room set
so you can sit in a clean space.
And there's a bunch of peoplewho've been working way
before you got here andyou didn't do any homework
(18:39):
and you're just like, yeah, what's good?
And you didn't even readit while you sat down.
We're talking like hourson Adobe, hours about that
finding that farmer thatjust has a single contract
just for us, for those mushrooms.
There was a snail farmerwe were keeping in business
at 11 Madison Park, maybehe's going to come back
or they're going tocome back into business.
- I was going to say,wow, the vegan term really
(19:00):
ruined the snail farmer's life.
- [Steven] I think there'sthat much thought going in.
It's okay if you don't know.
I just think there's betterways to phrase it, Bryan.
Like, you know, I know you don't know me
that well or like I was, Ireally have no idea what I want.
I think that preface, ifyou're like a difficult diner,
like just acknowledging that goes so far.
- Steven, what do you wish,you obviously have spent a lot
(19:22):
of time thinking about service
and hospitality, how toshorten words that may
or may not need to be shortened.
All of your cult rules.
What do you think diners should know
about your job that they don't know?
What do you wish diners knew?
- [Steven] I kind of don'twant them behind the curtain.
(19:44):
- They're listening to this podcast.
They're going to find out.
- [Steven] I think whatyou need to know is
that if you want to do right by servers,
letting them know whenyou've made a victory.
If we crushed it, if we did something
that was off the beaten path.
Or maybe just for you justallowing like that one little,
like you, you just don't know
how much your words canfill us up at the end
(20:05):
of the night, if they'rebeing sincere with you,
that little sincerityback I think means a lot.
- Verbal gratuity, you heard it.
You heard it here first from Steven.
Steven, thank you so much for joining us
as our server extraordinaire,
giving us the on the ground perspective.
- To learn about restaurantswith amazing service,
be sure to check outour incredible reviews
(20:25):
and guides on theinfatuation.com,@infatuation on Instagram
and @theinfatuation on TikTok.
So Hannah, that call withSteven, any immediate thoughts?
- Well, he called himselfa hospitalitarian.
What do you think about the difference
between hospitality and service?
I'm curious your take here.
- Hospitality and service,I really just think
(20:47):
that hospitality is just abroader definition of service.
I think service falls underthe hospitality umbrella.
- Yeah.- And for a restaurant
to have good hospitalitydoes not mean that they have
to have textbook service.
- Can you think of an example
of a restaurant that has great hospitality
but maybe not good service?
- I can think of so many
(21:08):
because there's this category, right?
There's fine dining.
And they offer impeccableservice those places.
- Serving with their left hand,
pouring with their left hand.
They know if you went still and
sparkling water ahead of time.
- Exactly, so there's that category
and then there's just acategory that's like way below
that in terms of formality,which is just like
the mom and pop spot.
(21:28):
The spot where you just feel welcome.
You feel like part of the family.
And there's so many placeslike that around New York City,
most notably I think Shaw-nae'sHouse on Staten Island.
You've ever been there?
- I've never been, butI really want to go.
- You'll see like it's a tiny homey place.
Feels like a living room.
And Shaw-nae's just walking around.
When I was there somewhat recently,
I feel like I got huggedseveral times by Shaw-nae
(21:50):
and she like pulled me aside at some point
and gave me life advice.
I can't remember what it was.
But it was really genuine.
I think useful.
Maybe something like,you know what, you need
to recognize your value Bryan.
And I was like, yeah, I do.
And then I ate dinner.
I'm pretty sure that wasbefore dinner even started.
So that's an example ofthat over in Long Island.
- It's called Shaw-nae's House.
(22:10):
- Shaw-nae's House.
- So I mean that evenjust the name implies
like you're coming into my home, my space.
- The name says it all.
And it's a really wonderful place.
So is Darjeeling Kitchen & Cafe.
- Where is that?- It is in Long Island City.
In New York City.
On the border between Long Island City
and Astoria and Queens.
And it's another small family run spot
(22:31):
where service is really casual.
Everyone's super nice
and you just like feellike part of the family.
- I mean, what else?
Giacomo Fine Foods,this tiny sandwich shop
on the Upper West side.
Open for decades.
The person who owns it,you'll see 'em in the back
in the kitchen just makingwhatever sandwich you want.
You want a sandwich withSwedish meatballs, great.
To meatloaf.
Chicken cordon blue.
(22:51):
They'll do anything.
And all the sandwiches cost like $10.
And the owner is just back there
and making the sandwicheschatting with you.
- So the theme of what you're saying,
if I'm hearing you correctly,is like these places
with great hospitality,
but maybe not great technical service.
It's about like the peoplewho run them, the people,
(23:12):
the humans are likeinvolved in the experience.
Like, you know, Shaw-nae islike giving you life advice
and like, you know, the guy's making
your sandwich at the deli.
Is that like maybe the through line
of hospitality is like a person
with a personality islike injecting themselves
into the experience?
- Yeah.
It's just interacting with nice people
who you feel care about you.
(23:33):
Just that's it.
You have thoughts on that?
- Yeah, I mean that's my favorite kind
of restaurant experience.
There's a place inPhilly called Cafe Nhan.
It's a Vietnameserestaurant in South Philly
run by Nhan herself and her son Andrew
and Nhan was like, I'lljust make soup and Bahn mi
and for takeout if people want it.
And then people startedto love this place so much
(23:56):
and they were just like,can I sit down here?
I want to hang out with you.
It is not about when youwant to eat dinner, it is,
you are coming on the hoursthat she is available.
And it's so fun.
It's great.
And I think with fine dining,
you lose a little bit of that.
Like at maybe Steven as ahospitalitarian would say,
well if you're losing the personal touch,
(24:16):
then we haven't done our job correctly.
But there's always going tobe a barrier at a restaurant
that is trying to do everything perfectly.
Because in that pursuit of perfection,
I think you're losing a little bit of like
what makes restaurants fun and wonderful.
- Yeah I just thinkthat there has to just,
you have to be able toform a personal connection
with that restaurant.
And sometimes Steven style service
(24:37):
is going to do the trick,like fine dining service
and sometimes you just want to chat
with somebody who's niceand build that connection.
- Is there an in-between category?
Like are there places that present casual
but actually the serviceis like real technical.
Like they're not, theydon't want to even tell you
how technical it is becausethey want to appear cool
(24:57):
and chill.
- I mean, I don't know. I'msure we could find an in-between
category, maybe have something in mind.
If I were to say somethingI'd be like, oh, you know,
like all those new wine bars nowadays,
you know what I'm talking about?
- For sure.
That is exactly what I'm talking about.
- Like Wild Air, Four Horsemen.
Those are a decade old.
There's some newer oneslike Ha's Snack Bar.
Honestly not the best service.
But I think it fits that restaurant.
(25:19):
Sometimes not the bestservice is the best service.
But I would say the winebar category for sure.
- The wine bar category is tricky
because there has to be this impression
that the server is yourfriend, is cash is like not,
you know, standing in the corner
waiting to fold your napkin
(25:39):
'cause that's not cool.
But also these restaurantsare charging a lot of money.
You're still going to paya couple hundred bucks at a
wine bar if you're ordering enough food.
And so the expectationis still pretty high
in terms of technical service.
- Right, right, right.
So what's the appropriate sort of service
at one of those places?
- Well, I was talking to another one
(26:00):
of my friends whose name is Omy.
And Omy is the GM
and beverage manager at a placecalled Sergeantsville Inn,
which is outside of Philadelphia.
And he said to me on thephone, "There are a lot
of restaurants doing this
casual fine dining thing right now.
And in my opinion, it's thehardest style of service
to train and emulate with guests
because you're walking this fine line
(26:21):
when we touch the table,it's supposed to be relaxed,
not 'the chef recommends this.'
You're supposed to talkto them like a friend
and you're still supposed tofold their napkin the right way
and clear the plates with one hand.
It has to look effortless
because you have to be really good at it."
Does that make you think about
these restaurants in a different way?
Like, oh that person'swearing big baggy shorts
(26:44):
and has little tiny tattoos at Bridges
and they look like they wantto talk to you about cinema.
But actually they're likeworking their butt off
to make sure your plates are cleared
in exactly the right timing
and they're going to getyelled at if they don't.
- I will say they'll geta lot more grace though
than the fine dining placesbecause the customers
who come into those restaurants,
they don't have the same expectations.
They might spend asimilar amount of money,
(27:05):
but for some reason it doesn'tfeel like as big of a deal.
- Yeah.- So I would say
the expectations are not quite the same.
The stakes aren't the same.
I fully believe that they have
to work really hard, but I do not buy that
it's harder than fine dining service.
- Fair enough.- So we've talked about
the various tiers of goodservice at restaurants, right?
(27:28):
But we haven't touched on bad service
but I did mention before Ha's Snack bar
and I said that theservice wasn't the best
but for Ha's--
- Lower East Side Chinatown?
- Ha's is a new-ish wine bar.
It's on our list ofthe 25 Best Restaurants
in New York City.
And yeah, it's Lower East Side.
(27:48):
- Lower East Side.- I believe.
- Vietnamese French.- Vietnamese French.
- Tiny restaurant.
- Everything is kind of,the portions are all small.
They're all very delicious too.
- Yep.- A lot of fish sauce.
- I'm a huge fan of Ha's.
- A lot of wine.
Yeah, I mean so am I.
But I think that theservice is not the best
and at the same time,there's nothing I would
change about the service.
(28:09):
I just feel like it's perfect for Ha's.
The service is kind of--- Laissez-faire.
What do you mean?
- It is kind of like cool.
- It's they're cool as hell in there.
Oh my god.
I'm like, don't look at me too hard
'cause I don't want you to see
that my toes don't have a pedicure.
- And this is not to say thatthe food is not incredible,
(28:31):
but part of the reason why you go to Ha's
is because it feels cooler than you.
- A hundred percent.
You're chasing that cool.
- So then you kind of want the servers
to feel cooler than youif they're too warm.
Which I'm not saying they're mean.
- They're is an interesting point Bryan.
- It sets the vibe.
Bad service or justnot super over the top,
warm service can sometimes set the vibe,
(28:53):
the right vibe, a cool vibe.
Ha's is an example of that.
Bong I think is another example of that.
- What's Bong?- Bong is
a small Cambodianrestaurant in Crown Heights,
actually similar size to Ha's.
And that also just went on our list
of 25 Best Restaurants in New York City.
So we obviously love it.
I love Bong.
The servers there are terrible.
- Well, because they'relike, oh right, you're here.
(29:14):
What do you want to eat?
You mean that?
- Well, no, no, no, no, no.
It's not rude in any way.
And I should preface this with,
I went to Bong when it was very, very new.
And when I went to Bong, I had no idea
who my server was.
Just everybody in therestaurant talked to me
at some point they were like, okay,
has your order been taken?
Do you want this?
Have you gotten this yet yet?
- A little chaotic.- Yeah.
(29:34):
And like, oh, do you want wine?
And then this another person would come by
and be like, you want some wine?
So it was chaotic and I loved it.
I thought it was perfectfor Bong and the space.
- But that's different thanwhat you're saying about Ha's,
which it sounds like theHa's thing is cool people
don't want to be too sincere,
too earnest, too over the top friendly.
Because that's not cool.
- And then Bong is just kind of
(29:55):
a little more chaotic casual.
And I think that both are kindof technically bad service.
Examples of bad service.
- Like Steven would be mortified.
- Yeah and then, but both places,
it just works for each place.
It sets the right vibe.
- It sounds kind of,
do you have a preferenceover one type or the other?
Like chaos, but like sweet people
(30:16):
or, I'm pretty cool here I am.
- No, it kind of just depends.- Depends on where you are.
- On how I'm feeling.
If I want to be treated like dirt.
- Do you want to be treated like dirt?
Like that place in Chicagowhere they yell at you?
That's sort of a different category.
- Is that Wiener's Circle?
- I think it's Wiener's Circle.
(30:36):
- But also,
I just want to say Ha's,they're very nice there.
They're not mean to you.
- They're going to come for you.
- They're very nice.
- They are nice, as I've aged,
have become less concernedabout appearing cool.
Which, not to brag,
but I went to Comal onthe Lower East Side,
a newish Mexican restaurant that's sort
(30:57):
of like going for the wine bar.
Tiny space vibe.
Ate a really deliciouschicken wing that was stuffed
with cheese and more chicken.
I liked that quite a bit.
And some good ice cream.
The server at first was
so cool girl like, I didn'trealize you were here.
(31:18):
What do you want?
Like the same category as like Ha's.
Not rude, but like I'm cool
and I'm not going tolike be sincere with you.
And I was not into it.
And then I tried really hard to win over.
And was doing my littlecharming thing and I did it.
And then she was like gigglingand by the end I was like.
- They were fake laughs.
She was pretending.
(31:39):
- She might have been pretending.
But you know what?
She did her job well
because she read me as adiner who wanted to be chummy
and ask questions and she was on board.
- Nice.
So what was that Comal?
- Comal.- Good service.
- Ended up being good service.
At first I was not sure itwas going to be good service.
- So we just talked aboutwhen bad service can be good,
(32:00):
but when bad service is bad, what does
that look like?
What does that mean?- Oof.
Well, I mean there's pet peeves I have.
Naturally.
And maybe this makes me abad diner, I don't know.
But I drink a lot of waterat restaurants a lot.
- Me too.- If the water,
if there's a bottle on the table
(32:21):
and the bottle is empty,I need a new bottle.
You don't need to pour the water for me.
I actually, I prefer to pour it myself.
You don't need to comeover every 10 seconds
and pour me water.
I'll pour it myself.
But if there's a bottle on the table
and it's empty, oh my god.
Get it together.
- Yeah, I know I've said before that I
don't have any pet peeves.
- That sucks.- That's definitely.
- Do you have another one?
Can you think of another one?
(32:42):
- No.
- Or I can just name someand you can react to them.
- Yeah, yeah, go for it.
I think I'm a pretty laid back guy.
- You're so laid back.
Oh my god, you're so laid back.
Okay, what about, thisis something I also heard
from Omy, my friend.
Nothing frustrates me more
when people pour wine where thelabel isn't facing the guest
and the hand is over thelabel, it's thoughtless.
You're not paying attention.
(33:02):
Your brain is off.
Does it bother you?- Never think about that
because I always know whatkind of wine I'm drinking.
Why do I need to see the label?
- No, I think that's just one
of those things that's like--
- But yeah, I know.
- What about Marianafrom Infatuation Miami,
one of our lovely writers there,
she likes at a fine diningrestaurant when people,
the servers are wearingt-shirts and Nikes.
(33:24):
What do you think about like outfits?
- I could care less what you're wearing.
I'm actually probably more comfortable
when everyone's wearing their own clothes.
Because they're like, okay, that's great.
You know, you're comfortable.
But at the same time, it'snice to have a uniform
'cause it's going to get dirty at work.
I just really don't care what you wear.
- What about, oh you've had dessert,
(33:45):
you've been offered coffee,
there's no check, check is not coming.
What do you think?
- This is so we go torestaurants professionally
and sometimes it's aweeknight and it's 10:00 PM
and you just want to getthe heck out of there.
- Because you're like,I got to get to work
again tomorrow morning.
Where it's so late, I'm so tired.
(34:05):
- I would say yes, pet peeve,
but also I would just ask for the check.
- You ask for the check.
Also, same kind of category.
When you have put yourcredit card on the table
and no one is coming toget it, what do you do?
- I just desperately tryto get someone's attention.
- Yeah.- But the thing is like,
I'm really non-confrontational,so I'm so bad at doing that.
- What do you do?- I'll be like, eh.
(34:27):
And then someone will look atme and I'll like look away.
So we're talking about our gripes.
Have you ever put any
of your gripes about serviceinto a restaurant review?
- If you go multiple times to a place
and you've noticed thesame thing is happening,
whether that's good, whether that's bad,
whether that's somethingin between like yeah,
If it's noteworthy enough,
I'll mention it.
What do you think?
(34:47):
- 99.9% of the time, I don'ttalk about the service.
And that is for several reasons.
It's because the service is simply good.
It's not exceptional.
It's not exceptionally bad.
The turnover inrestaurants is really high.
You don't know if the server
who is helping you yesterday is, you know,
going to be working atthe restaurant tomorrow.
- And also you don't knowif the server like just,
(35:10):
I don't know, droppedtheir phone in the toilet.
Like, or got broken up with.
Like who knows what kindof day they're having.
Or they could be like, I don't know.
You never know.
I think what we at theInfatuation try to do is
write about how a placemakes you feel like
that can be atmosphere.
But I do think serviceis a big part of that
(35:31):
because the service elements are
the experience that you're having,
that's the curatedexperience is being brought
to you if it's done well bythe people who work there.
And so if you're talkingabout Ha's Snack Bar
without mentioning the vibeof the place that's set,
that vibe is set by theactual structural space,
(35:54):
but also the people likeyou're not doing your job
as a restaurant critic is my take.
- I would agree with you there.
You should definitely paintthe fullest picture possible.
- Now that we've talkedabout this for a while,
why does service matterto you if it does matter?
Are you thinking aboutthis in a different way?
'Cause we just spent a while chatting.
- Service sets the tone for a restaurant,
service can make up for any shortcomings.
(36:15):
Service can make youirrationally love a place.
Think a place is better than it is.
But then if it does haveexceptional service,
maybe it is exactly asgood as you think it is.
Food is only part of the picture.
Service is also just, I thinka big underrated part of it.
That even we at the Infatuationdon't talk about enough.
(36:37):
You know?
- Yeah I want to talkabout it more actually.
You know, I think there's,there's room to observe
and be thoughtful abouthow much service matters.
Because I think it really does play
into a restaurant experience.
And it's also the reason, I mean,
we were joking about this,but like robot waiters
(37:00):
do exist in some capacity.
Whether it's just like those weird little
things carrying trays.
But like, there is more
and more technology beingbrought into restaurant spaces
and like, you know, ghostkitchens I think also fall
under this category.
But I'm not worried thatthat's ever going to
replace the good old fashioned restaurant
(37:20):
because you just cannotteach a little AI guy
to recognize a diners' implicit wants
and anticipate them.
Like that cannot be programmed.
And you can quote me and we'lltake a look at this episode
from the archives in 2080
when we're all living on Mars or whatever.
(37:42):
- That sounds, I guess I agree with you.
That sounds realistic, Ialso hope it doesn't happen
because if there are ever robotservers, people are going to
be so mean to those servers.
- Bully them.- Going to make humanity worse.
- Clankers?
- Did you just come up witha slur for robot servers?
- That's a slur that exists.
Clankers.
- Clankers.- Yeah.
It's, I mean, it's not offensive.
Who are we offending by saying Clankers?
- Clanker, where's my water?
(38:04):
- Oh Clanker, lemonade.
- Do you have a service horror story
or a server who singlehandedly saved your meal?
Tell us in the comments below
or reach out to us on socials.
We'd love to hear about it.
- I'm Hannah.- I'm Bryan.
- And an extra thank you to Steven
for the insider infoon restaurant service.
- Stevie B.- We love you, Stevie B.
- And thanks to you for joining us.
(38:25):
This was Restaurant People,a show from Infatuation.
- So Hannah, your firstHillstone experience yesterday.
Did it change the wayyou look at restaurants,
change the way you think about service?
- It didn't change theway I think about service.
But I'll tell you, six monthsfrom now, six years from now,
I'm going to rememberthat Hillstone experience.
And I'm going to remember Alexa,
she carried four martinis by herself.
- That was so impressive.- Two in one hand,
(00:21):
if you order a martini abouthalfway through your martini,
a server will come overand switch out the glass
and give you a new chilledglass for your martini.
- Yeah, the martiniglass swap, a very nice--
- A really nice touch.
A really nice touch.
Hi, I am Hannah Albertine,Senior Editor at Infatuation.
(00:43):
And if there's free breadleftover at the end of the meal,
will you put it in my doggy bag please
so I can eat it later for breakfast?
- And I'm Bryan Kim, editoriallead for Infatuation in NYC,
and I'm a sucker forcomplimentary sparkling water.
- And this is RestaurantPeople, the show for people
who eat at restaurantssometimes from Infatuation.
- Today on Restaurant Peoplewe're talking about service.
(01:04):
We've all seen the mysterious server
in all black effortlesslywaiting at a party of 15.
But what actually goes into their job
that we don't know about?
- First up, we'll get into
what good restaurant service really is
and how it impacts your dining experience.
Then we'll get some
behind the scenes insightfrom a current server
to help you understand dining etiquette.
- Finally, we'll discuss restaurants
that have excellent service,whether you're looking
(01:25):
for a fine dining experienceor a casual mom and pop,
all this and more on today'sepisode of Restaurant People.
Why are you so excitedabout service as a topic?
- I didn't really careabout service that much
years ago when I first started writing
about food and restaurants.
But then I started to think about service
(01:46):
as not just is this person,you know, bringing plates,
collecting plates in a timely manner,
but more about like the humanelement of a restaurant.
- What do you mean the human element?
- No matter what kindof restaurant you're in,
service is the reasonwe go out to eat at all.
Like if you want justfood you didn't make,
you're getting takeout, bro.
(02:06):
- And then let's say youreplace all the service
with robots, you'regoing to lose something.
But that's still a restaurant
and people might still goto that robot restaurant.
Don't go to robot restaurants.
- You want to go to a robot restaurant?
- I don't want to go to robot restaurants.
But what I'm saying isI don't think service
is obviously not a hundredpercent of why we go
to restaurants or even the main reason.
But yeah, I agree with you.
It is a big reason of whywe go to a restaurant.
(02:27):
- Bryan, you have workedin restaurants before,
mostly on the bartendingside, if I do recall.
So what do you think,
what does service actually mean to you?
- When you provide good service
you're making people feel welcome
and wanted in the establishment.
- And acknowledged.
It's like, hey, you're a person.
You exist, you're in this room.
- Yeah, that's the best.
That's the best part.
(02:47):
- As a diner, it suckswhen you walk in somewhere
and no one even looks at you.
- The best, like the opposite of that.
And the best thing is when you walk in
and someone's like, welcome back.
- Yeah.
Not have you dined with us before?
But hey, welcome back.
Hey, nice to see you.
- So the fundamentals of service,I think we can break down
to just the technical aspects
(03:08):
of you are greeted at the door,you're seated at your table,
you're given a water,you're given your menus,
your order is taken,you're plates are cleared,
and then you're given your check, right?
- Yeah, that seems right.
Pretty much.
- That's service.- That's service.
- And then you're shown the door.
They say, get out of here.
- That's service like bare bones,
no flare, no surprise and delight.
(03:29):
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But you can do anything.
You can jazz up any of those things
to make it exceptional service.
- And to be clear, if a restaurantis just doing bare bones,
that doesn't mean it's a bad restaurant.
It might be appropriate for that.
Whatever style of restaurant it is.
Like if it's just likeyour neighborhood pub,
that's great, that's fine.
- So I think it's commonlyunderstood, accepted
(03:52):
that fine dining restaurantsoffer the best service.
- Mm.- Maybe they do,
maybe they don't.
The absolute highest level of service.
Why do you think that is?
What is fine dining service?
What can you expect?
- Fine dining service, I thinkis supposed to be invisible.
Like there's someonestanding near your table
(04:12):
so that when you go to the bathroom,
they're folding your napkin,when you've finished your wine
or you even have like one moresip, someone's coming over
and they say, wouldyou like another glass?
Like they're supposedto sort of anticipate
all of your needs, haveeverything on time.
And that's my leastfavorite kind of service.
- Really?- Yeah.
(04:33):
- Wait, wait, wait, wait.
But you gave La Bernadin inMidtown such a high rating
and I'm pretty sure yousay such nice things
about the service and it isexactly what you just described.
- Yeah, because they're doing everything
technically to perfection.
But I remember the people feeling human,
like they were really warm,
(04:53):
so they were like doing theirjob at the highest level,
but they didn't feel like robots.
- Right, right, right.- Because if you just feel
like a robot, I'm like, it's very weird.
I feel weird.
At that level, there'ssome like really ridiculous
things that are happening.
Like they're on the internet.
Everyone can find this document.
There is the 2023 ForbesTravel Guide Standards.
(05:17):
And if I could just readyou, I have them on my phone.
- Let's hear it.
- I'm just going to read you some of them.
All right, once the guest is seated,
the table is politelygreeted within one minute,
parentheses efficiency.
So this standard isnot about friendliness,
it's just about are youdoing this efficiently?
Another rule,
a distinctive culinary giftfrom the chef is delivered
(05:39):
to the table at somepoint during the meal.
- I mean, it does sound nice.
- That's weird.
Okay, we'll keep going.
Oh, food presentations are approachable
and not difficult to eat.
However, dishes are interesting to eat
and provide varying contrasts of texture.
- I hate it when thingsare difficult to eat.
You're trying to eatsomething, you're like,
(05:59):
ah, how do I eat this?
- Okay, one more thing.
In handling all dishes, glasses,
and bottles, staff isefficient, yet discreet
and always precise andprofessional in their movements
and use trays as appropriate.
- Hmm.
- Are you thinking about trays?
'Cause I'm thinking about trays.
- Yeah, I've used alot of trays in my day.
(06:20):
- Totally.
Yesterday when we had lunch at Hillstone,
you asked our server Alexa,she told us her name.
And Alexa said, I don't do trays
because I find it harder to use.
- I think it was a company policy.
- Hillstone has a lot of company policies
you were saying.
- So many.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(06:40):
You have to read the guidelines.
I mean, if we're justtalking, they have guidelines
for diners and then I thinkthey also have guidelines.
They must for service
'cause the servicethere is so exceptional.
Hillstone is a national restaurant chain.
I want to say some 40locations across the country
from Montecito to Palm Beach.
It goes by various names.
(07:01):
Hillstone, Houston's, R+D Kitchen,
Honor Bar, they're all Hillstone.
In the end, they're allpretty much Hillstone.
I reviewed the Hillstone in New York City
and I gave it a very goodrating despite the fact
that Hillstone, as everybody,well many people say,
is just business casual Applebee's.
But yes, the service is a huge part of it.
(07:22):
- I will go back because Iwas floored by the service.
Like, let's even just givesome examples from yesterday.
As soon as we arrived,we sat down in our booth
and the host immediately says, hey,
can I get you some water or another drink?
And what this host did waswrite down rather discreetly,
(07:43):
write down our drink order, put that piece
of paper face down on the table.
And then immediately Alexaour server, came over
and said, I see you havesome drinks you'd like,
let me go get them, isthere anything else?
And it was like seamless.
- No other host in any of therestaurant is going to take
your drink order when they seat you.
- It's such a simple thing,but it really, it tickled me.
- So Hannah, your firstHillstone experience yesterday.
(08:04):
Did it change the wayyou look at restaurants,
change the way you think about service?
- It didn't change theway I think about service,
but I'll tell you, Iwill six months from now,
six years from now, I'm going to remember
that Hillstone experience.
And I'm going to remember Alexa.
She carried four martinis by herself.
Two in one hand, at Hillstone,
(08:27):
if you order a martini abouthalfway through your martini,
a server will come overand switch out the glass
and give you a new chilledglass for your martini.
- Yeah, the martini glass swap
I often hear accredited to Hillstone.
I don't know if they inventedit, either way, a very nice--
- A really nice touch.
(08:49):
A really nice touch.
And we're going to get to talk
to someone who formerlyworked at Hillstone.
Hey, hey you.
Are you enjoying this episode?
You freaking better be.
But if you are, make sure to follow, like
and subscribe to RestaurantPeople on YouTube
and all of your preferredpodcast platforms
so you don't miss an episode.
(09:10):
- So calling in on theHam Phone right now,
we actually have aformer Hillstone server.
He not only served at Hillstone,
but also at a bunch ofother impressive restaurants
around New York City.
- Like where?- I'm talking
Eleven Madison Park.
- Heard of it.- Gramercy Tavern.
The River Cafe.
So joining us, we have Steven Bono Jr.
Currently Steven is a Chef Sommelier
(09:33):
at Jean Georges Chez Margaux
in the Meatpacking District.
Steven, welcome.
Thank you so much for joining us.
- [Steven] Thanks for having me.
Thanks for taking thetime to talk the minutia.
Let's do it.
- Steven, what else is inthe Hillstone handbook?
Like tell us about working there.
- What secrets can you tell us?
- What secrets can you give us?
- [Steven] I think what they look for
is genuine hospitalitarians.
(09:56):
- Hospitalitarian.
- Wow.
- [Steven] Like when you start
to do service at a high level,
you're not just your like vocab changes,
but the way you see interactand love people changes.
Like you are not the same.
I know that's a little woo woo.
- No, I get it.- But it's true
because I think the wayyou interact with the world
and not just like love languages and such,
(10:17):
but there's something that gases you up.
You become an adrenaline junkie
for taking care of people well.
But that martini thing
that I think you might'vespoken about already,
the martini exchange, the famous one.
There was a time wherepeople would just phone it in
and change out the cold glass.
Well, I was bringing the fresh garnish.
I think that was like,
(10:37):
everybody's going to gogive you a cold glass.
But what about those blue cheese olives
that you really wanted
to finish off that lasttwo ounces of your martini?
You could come and have theexact same thing at the exact
same time every single time.
And it was always goingto be what you expected.
Which I think was likenot just being known,
but also that you couldhave consistency in a city
that I think has very little consistency.
(10:59):
- Well that's exactly whatyou were talking about, Bryan.
That makes Hillstone, Hillstone.
Okay.
So it sounds like you havethis ethos about service.
Do you see a difference between service
and hospitality Steven?
- [Steven] We don't usethe word waiters, right?
- Why is that?
- [Steven] And it's just likeyou put the wait in waiter
like there's nothing, you'rejust kind of hanging around
(11:21):
like waiting for peopleto finish that bite.
I think when you're talking about,
and I don't know if I canreference all of the preamble,
but when you're talkingabout people kind of waiting
to fold your napkin, like that
to me is a waiter when you'retalking about like, oh,
how do I make this looknicer than when they left?
That's a server, right?
- It's like active versus passive action.
- [Steven] Yeah, it's alsolike a heart to serve.
(11:42):
There's this like weirdthing we're going to
try and put our finger on today.
That's like, does service gas you up?
Like does serving othersfeel like a noble calling?
I think that there's also something
to be said about someone who's, you know,
getting it right tailor made to you
and also carrying within thesafeties of your sustenance.
(12:02):
I'm looking after your food,looking after your beverage.
I'm looking after yourtime and money well spent.
- It's Super Bowlesque.
When you put it like that.
- [Steven] It's Super Bowl-ish for them.
This is the most expensivemeal they might ever have.
And fine dining and folks who aren't
used to tweezer food and used
to eating at fine dining establishments.
You do have a level ofexpectation when you're spending
a thousand dollars on one meal.
(12:23):
I think that that's what we started to do.
We started to kind of sit down
and say like, how do wemake this expand further?
So that's why, you know,it became the craze
for three Michelin stars tosend you home with breakfast
because frankly theexperience shouldn't finish.
You know, you're still reveling.
It's almost like a great filmor like Broadway production.
Like you're still talking about it.
It's still affecting younow you have got, you know,
(12:43):
artisanal granola that's gearedto your dietary restrictions
that you're eating the next day.
- Yeah, I actually went to EMP
and ate that granolafor like a month after.
- A month.
How much did they give you?
- I can't remember.
It's like a substantial bag though.
I think it's fair to saythat people probably go
to a place like EMP.
At least they think theygo for the food, right?
And then yes, the serviceis nice, but they're going
(13:05):
'cause they want to trythat really cool food.
Have you ever had anexperience where people come in
and they're kind ofsomething bums them out.
It might be the food, itmight be something else,
and then you just turned it all around.
You saved it with this service.
Has that ever happened?
- [Steven] So you know whensomeone's having a bad time
to answer your question directly,
like you can whiff it like a bad fart.
Like it's just like clear thatthey argued on the way in.
They have three hours of traffic
(13:25):
and if they're not going totell you about it, that's okay,
but you're going tofigure it out and then try
and make a move that makes them excited.
And whether it's just alittle extra attention
or what have you.
But I think the part that, Imean there's a good op, like,
well actually saving awoman's life in 24 at River,
where I had to give a Heimlichand it was her birthday.
- You gave the Heimlichto the the birthday woman?
(13:45):
- [Steven] Yeah, so she's choking.
I'm pouring some Chambolle-Musigny.
And it's clear.
It's clear that the guys at the table,
the patriarchs aren'tgoing to do anything.
- They never do.
- [Steven] I thinkthey're just embarrassed.
Their regulars.
And it's like their birthday.
It's her birthday and she just needed
to eat this filet so fast.
- Wait, sorry.
You weren't reprimanded
(14:06):
for saving this woman's life, were you?
- [Steven] No.
But that feeling
where like something inthe dining experience
has changed did.
And it was not my fault.
- Wow.- And then long story short
is that she, I justwrote her a little note.
- You said, I'm really sorry.
- [Steven] She didn'twant to talk to anybody
and it was clear that, youknow, the night had been over
(14:27):
and it will be marred by this experience.
I feel like that small gesture has nothing
to do with that moment.
I'll never know if it was recovered,
but at least she'll go home being like,
there's another memoryhere that has nothing to do
with me choking in front of 150 people.
It's actually about, wow,that was a good birthday.
- So I think let, thatactually transitions us nicely
to a little game we want to play about
(14:50):
how you would handle dining situations.
- We're going to name a scenario
and then you are going totell us, you know, hey,
if it's proper etiquette
and how you would handle that scenario.
First scenario a guest is choking on
something in your dining room.
Do you give them a Heimlich again
or this time are you just like, maybe not.
(15:10):
- [Steven] What an inconvenience.
I mean, gosh, we gave him a fork.
We gave him a knife, no.
Yeah, I mean that's, you know,
to me it's like fight or flight.
That's where all adrenaline junkies
in this restaurant industry,
if you're not rising to occasion,
if you're seeing someone cry,you know, like we see a lot
of, I'll see not just anniversaries,
but full blown divorces.
(15:32):
You know, like you're therefor, I don't know, arguably
some of people's most important times
and how you react to thatI think is important.
That's very diplomatic.
- Is that a yes To the Heimlich?
- [Steven] Yes, to the Heimlich.
- Sounds like you're obsessed
with giving people the Heinrich maneuver
or performing it.- Steven Bono Jr.
Obsessed with the Heimlich.
(15:52):
- Obsessed with the Heimlich.
- [Steven] I think ifMichael Scott said it right,
that you have to do itto, is it Funky Town?
- No, it's Staying Alive.- Staying alive.
- If a guest orders appetizers
and then waits 40 minutesbefore ordering entrees.
- [Steven] 40 minutes beforethey do order full entrees?
- That's villainous behavior Steven.
- Admit it.- I think if there's
(16:13):
a second round ofcocktails, I think you do
table times are real, I thinkthe fun thing that you start
to realize that like, I'mnot the host maitre d'
like if they need thistable back, that's on them.
And if it's is a pooled house,somebody's going to crush it
and selling Magnum somewhere else.
This person needs morechips, more cocktail sauce.
Like it comes out in the wash.
And the pros know that.
- All right.
- All right, next up, simple one.
(16:34):
I'm trying to help out,you know, we're done
with our appetizers.
- Oh Bryan.- I think I'm just going to
stack all these plates.
Yes or no?
Should I stack the plateson my table that are dirty?
- [Steven] I'm going to speak
from a Hillstone point of view here.
We are trained to pickup plates in a manner
(16:54):
that is sexy and clean.
- Sexy, whoa.
Blink twice if you're good.
- [Steven] So like we're trained
to pick up these platesin a way that makes sense.
And also doesn't giveanybody carpal tunnel.
There are smaller folks who,
and there's big old Hillstone plates
that are 25 pounds.
Please don't stack plates.
- Don't stack plates.
What about like modifications?
(17:16):
If it's not a dietary restriction
or vegetarianism, veganism, pescatarianism
and someone is trying
to modify their dish, what do you think?
- [Steven] Yeah, I think likeat places like Hillstone,
they've made it so easy.
So there's all a shorthanded acronym.
So if you're having a baked potato,
and I actually wouldlike extra sour cream,
(17:37):
but I don't want bacon.
But honestly, can youdo chives on the side?
It's great.- It's fun.
- [Steven] It's pot PotE no C double S side.
No pot E.
No B, double S, side C.
And it's like, you know, I just
wrote that down in one second.
So I think like for methere's places that, I mean,
I'm not making the food,I'm just ringing it in.
- But you know, the chefs are mad.
(17:58):
- [Steven] Yeah.
I mean they don't, you know,
if I've done it my job appropriately.
You know, it's all good.
- Steven, as a diner, do youthink it's appropriate for me
to ask a server, hey, should Iget the chicken or the steak?
Two very different things.
- [Steven] Yeah, I mean it, I think
what we're talkingabout from a macro point
(18:19):
of view is diner etiquette.
The question that we all hate the most is
what's good, right?
What's good here?
- You're not supposed to tell someone
else their preferences.
Like, that's a very strange question.
- [Steven] We've worked for two hours
just to get this room set
so you can sit in a clean space.
And there's a bunch of peoplewho've been working way
before you got here andyou didn't do any homework
(18:39):
and you're just like, yeah, what's good?
And you didn't even readit while you sat down.
We're talking like hourson Adobe, hours about that
finding that farmer thatjust has a single contract
just for us, for those mushrooms.
There was a snail farmerwe were keeping in business
at 11 Madison Park, maybehe's going to come back
or they're going tocome back into business.
- I was going to say,wow, the vegan term really
(19:00):
ruined the snail farmer's life.
- [Steven] I think there'sthat much thought going in.
It's okay if you don't know.
I just think there's betterways to phrase it, Bryan.
Like, you know, I know you don't know me
that well or like I was, Ireally have no idea what I want.
I think that preface, ifyou're like a difficult diner,
like just acknowledging that goes so far.
- Steven, what do you wish,you obviously have spent a lot
(19:22):
of time thinking about service
and hospitality, how toshorten words that may
or may not need to be shortened.
All of your cult rules.
What do you think diners should know
about your job that they don't know?
What do you wish diners knew?
- [Steven] I kind of don'twant them behind the curtain.
(19:44):
- They're listening to this podcast.
They're going to find out.
- [Steven] I think whatyou need to know is
that if you want to do right by servers,
letting them know whenyou've made a victory.
If we crushed it, if we did something
that was off the beaten path.
Or maybe just for you justallowing like that one little,
like you, you just don't know
how much your words canfill us up at the end
(20:05):
of the night, if they'rebeing sincere with you,
that little sincerityback I think means a lot.
- Verbal gratuity, you heard it.
You heard it here first from Steven.
Steven, thank you so much for joining us
as our server extraordinaire,
giving us the on the ground perspective.
- To learn about restaurantswith amazing service,
be sure to check outour incredible reviews
(20:25):
and guides on theinfatuation.com,@infatuation on Instagram
and @theinfatuation on TikTok.
So Hannah, that call withSteven, any immediate thoughts?
- Well, he called himselfa hospitalitarian.
What do you think about the difference
between hospitality and service?
I'm curious your take here.
- Hospitality and service,I really just think
(20:47):
that hospitality is just abroader definition of service.
I think service falls underthe hospitality umbrella.
- Yeah.- And for a restaurant
to have good hospitalitydoes not mean that they have
to have textbook service.
- Can you think of an example
of a restaurant that has great hospitality
but maybe not good service?
- I can think of so many
(21:08):
because there's this category, right?
There's fine dining.
And they offer impeccableservice those places.
- Serving with their left hand,
pouring with their left hand.
They know if you went still and
sparkling water ahead of time.
- Exactly, so there's that category
and then there's just acategory that's like way below
that in terms of formality,which is just like
the mom and pop spot.
(21:28):
The spot where you just feel welcome.
You feel like part of the family.
And there's so many placeslike that around New York City,
most notably I think Shaw-nae'sHouse on Staten Island.
You've ever been there?
- I've never been, butI really want to go.
- You'll see like it's a tiny homey place.
Feels like a living room.
And Shaw-nae's just walking around.
When I was there somewhat recently,
I feel like I got huggedseveral times by Shaw-nae
(21:50):
and she like pulled me aside at some point
and gave me life advice.
I can't remember what it was.
But it was really genuine.
I think useful.
Maybe something like,you know what, you need
to recognize your value Bryan.
And I was like, yeah, I do.
And then I ate dinner.
I'm pretty sure that wasbefore dinner even started.
So that's an example ofthat over in Long Island.
- It's called Shaw-nae's House.
(22:10):
- Shaw-nae's House.
- So I mean that evenjust the name implies
like you're coming into my home, my space.
- The name says it all.
And it's a really wonderful place.
So is Darjeeling Kitchen & Cafe.
- Where is that?- It is in Long Island City.
In New York City.
On the border between Long Island City
and Astoria and Queens.
And it's another small family run spot
(22:31):
where service is really casual.
Everyone's super nice
and you just like feellike part of the family.
- I mean, what else?
Giacomo Fine Foods,this tiny sandwich shop
on the Upper West side.
Open for decades.
The person who owns it,you'll see 'em in the back
in the kitchen just makingwhatever sandwich you want.
You want a sandwich withSwedish meatballs, great.
To meatloaf.
Chicken cordon blue.
(22:51):
They'll do anything.
And all the sandwiches cost like $10.
And the owner is just back there
and making the sandwicheschatting with you.
- So the theme of what you're saying,
if I'm hearing you correctly,is like these places
with great hospitality,
but maybe not great technical service.
It's about like the peoplewho run them, the people,
(23:12):
the humans are likeinvolved in the experience.
Like, you know, Shaw-nae islike giving you life advice
and like, you know, the guy's making
your sandwich at the deli.
Is that like maybe the through line
of hospitality is like a person
with a personality islike injecting themselves
into the experience?
- Yeah.
It's just interacting with nice people
who you feel care about you.
(23:33):
Just that's it.
You have thoughts on that?
- Yeah, I mean that's my favorite kind
of restaurant experience.
There's a place inPhilly called Cafe Nhan.
It's a Vietnameserestaurant in South Philly
run by Nhan herself and her son Andrew
and Nhan was like, I'lljust make soup and Bahn mi
and for takeout if people want it.
And then people startedto love this place so much
(23:56):
and they were just like,can I sit down here?
I want to hang out with you.
It is not about when youwant to eat dinner, it is,
you are coming on the hoursthat she is available.
And it's so fun.
It's great.
And I think with fine dining,
you lose a little bit of that.
Like at maybe Steven as ahospitalitarian would say,
well if you're losing the personal touch,
(24:16):
then we haven't done our job correctly.
But there's always going tobe a barrier at a restaurant
that is trying to do everything perfectly.
Because in that pursuit of perfection,
I think you're losing a little bit of like
what makes restaurants fun and wonderful.
- Yeah I just thinkthat there has to just,
you have to be able toform a personal connection
with that restaurant.
And sometimes Steven style service
(24:37):
is going to do the trick,like fine dining service
and sometimes you just want to chat
with somebody who's niceand build that connection.
- Is there an in-between category?
Like are there places that present casual
but actually the serviceis like real technical.
Like they're not, theydon't want to even tell you
how technical it is becausethey want to appear cool
(24:57):
and chill.
- I mean, I don't know. I'msure we could find an in-between
category, maybe have something in mind.
If I were to say somethingI'd be like, oh, you know,
like all those new wine bars nowadays,
you know what I'm talking about?
- For sure.
That is exactly what I'm talking about.
- Like Wild Air, Four Horsemen.
Those are a decade old.
There's some newer oneslike Ha's Snack Bar.
Honestly not the best service.
But I think it fits that restaurant.
(25:19):
Sometimes not the bestservice is the best service.
But I would say the winebar category for sure.
- The wine bar category is tricky
because there has to be this impression
that the server is yourfriend, is cash is like not,
you know, standing in the corner
waiting to fold your napkin
(25:39):
'cause that's not cool.
But also these restaurantsare charging a lot of money.
You're still going to paya couple hundred bucks at a
wine bar if you're ordering enough food.
And so the expectationis still pretty high
in terms of technical service.
- Right, right, right.
So what's the appropriate sort of service
at one of those places?
- Well, I was talking to another one
(26:00):
of my friends whose name is Omy.
And Omy is the GM
and beverage manager at a placecalled Sergeantsville Inn,
which is outside of Philadelphia.
And he said to me on thephone, "There are a lot
of restaurants doing this
casual fine dining thing right now.
And in my opinion, it's thehardest style of service
to train and emulate with guests
because you're walking this fine line
(26:21):
when we touch the table,it's supposed to be relaxed,
not 'the chef recommends this.'
You're supposed to talkto them like a friend
and you're still supposed tofold their napkin the right way
and clear the plates with one hand.
It has to look effortless
because you have to be really good at it."
Does that make you think about
these restaurants in a different way?
Like, oh that person'swearing big baggy shorts
(26:44):
and has little tiny tattoos at Bridges
and they look like they wantto talk to you about cinema.
But actually they're likeworking their butt off
to make sure your plates are cleared
in exactly the right timing
and they're going to getyelled at if they don't.
- I will say they'll geta lot more grace though
than the fine dining placesbecause the customers
who come into those restaurants,
they don't have the same expectations.
They might spend asimilar amount of money,
(27:05):
but for some reason it doesn'tfeel like as big of a deal.
- Yeah.- So I would say
the expectations are not quite the same.
The stakes aren't the same.
I fully believe that they have
to work really hard, but I do not buy that
it's harder than fine dining service.
- Fair enough.- So we've talked about
the various tiers of goodservice at restaurants, right?
(27:28):
But we haven't touched on bad service
but I did mention before Ha's Snack bar
and I said that theservice wasn't the best
but for Ha's--
- Lower East Side Chinatown?
- Ha's is a new-ish wine bar.
It's on our list ofthe 25 Best Restaurants
in New York City.
And yeah, it's Lower East Side.
(27:48):
- Lower East Side.- I believe.
- Vietnamese French.- Vietnamese French.
- Tiny restaurant.
- Everything is kind of,the portions are all small.
They're all very delicious too.
- Yep.- A lot of fish sauce.
- I'm a huge fan of Ha's.
- A lot of wine.
Yeah, I mean so am I.
But I think that theservice is not the best
and at the same time,there's nothing I would
change about the service.
(28:09):
I just feel like it's perfect for Ha's.
The service is kind of--- Laissez-faire.
What do you mean?
- It is kind of like cool.
- It's they're cool as hell in there.
Oh my god.
I'm like, don't look at me too hard
'cause I don't want you to see
that my toes don't have a pedicure.
- And this is not to say thatthe food is not incredible,
(28:31):
but part of the reason why you go to Ha's
is because it feels cooler than you.
- A hundred percent.
You're chasing that cool.
- So then you kind of want the servers
to feel cooler than youif they're too warm.
Which I'm not saying they're mean.
- They're is an interesting point Bryan.
- It sets the vibe.
Bad service or justnot super over the top,
warm service can sometimes set the vibe,
(28:53):
the right vibe, a cool vibe.
Ha's is an example of that.
Bong I think is another example of that.
- What's Bong?- Bong is
a small Cambodianrestaurant in Crown Heights,
actually similar size to Ha's.
And that also just went on our list
of 25 Best Restaurants in New York City.
So we obviously love it.
I love Bong.
The servers there are terrible.
- Well, because they'relike, oh right, you're here.
(29:14):
What do you want to eat?
You mean that?
- Well, no, no, no, no, no.
It's not rude in any way.
And I should preface this with,
I went to Bong when it was very, very new.
And when I went to Bong, I had no idea
who my server was.
Just everybody in therestaurant talked to me
at some point they were like, okay,
has your order been taken?
Do you want this?
Have you gotten this yet yet?
- A little chaotic.- Yeah.
(29:34):
And like, oh, do you want wine?
And then this another person would come by
and be like, you want some wine?
So it was chaotic and I loved it.
I thought it was perfectfor Bong and the space.
- But that's different thanwhat you're saying about Ha's,
which it sounds like theHa's thing is cool people
don't want to be too sincere,
too earnest, too over the top friendly.
Because that's not cool.
- And then Bong is just kind of
(29:55):
a little more chaotic casual.
And I think that both are kindof technically bad service.
Examples of bad service.
- Like Steven would be mortified.
- Yeah and then, but both places,
it just works for each place.
It sets the right vibe.
- It sounds kind of,
do you have a preferenceover one type or the other?
Like chaos, but like sweet people
(30:16):
or, I'm pretty cool here I am.
- No, it kind of just depends.- Depends on where you are.
- On how I'm feeling.
If I want to be treated like dirt.
- Do you want to be treated like dirt?
Like that place in Chicagowhere they yell at you?
That's sort of a different category.
- Is that Wiener's Circle?
- I think it's Wiener's Circle.
(30:36):
- But also,
I just want to say Ha's,they're very nice there.
They're not mean to you.
- They're going to come for you.
- They're very nice.
- They are nice, as I've aged,
have become less concernedabout appearing cool.
Which, not to brag,
but I went to Comal onthe Lower East Side,
a newish Mexican restaurant that's sort
(30:57):
of like going for the wine bar.
Tiny space vibe.
Ate a really deliciouschicken wing that was stuffed
with cheese and more chicken.
I liked that quite a bit.
And some good ice cream.
The server at first was
so cool girl like, I didn'trealize you were here.
(31:18):
What do you want?
Like the same category as like Ha's.
Not rude, but like I'm cool
and I'm not going tolike be sincere with you.
And I was not into it.
And then I tried really hard to win over.
And was doing my littlecharming thing and I did it.
And then she was like gigglingand by the end I was like.
- They were fake laughs.
She was pretending.
(31:39):
- She might have been pretending.
But you know what?
She did her job well
because she read me as adiner who wanted to be chummy
and ask questions and she was on board.
- Nice.
So what was that Comal?
- Comal.- Good service.
- Ended up being good service.
At first I was not sure itwas going to be good service.
- So we just talked aboutwhen bad service can be good,
(32:00):
but when bad service is bad, what does
that look like?
What does that mean?- Oof.
Well, I mean there's pet peeves I have.
Naturally.
And maybe this makes me abad diner, I don't know.
But I drink a lot of waterat restaurants a lot.
- Me too.- If the water,
if there's a bottle on the table
(32:21):
and the bottle is empty,I need a new bottle.
You don't need to pour the water for me.
I actually, I prefer to pour it myself.
You don't need to comeover every 10 seconds
and pour me water.
I'll pour it myself.
But if there's a bottle on the table
and it's empty, oh my god.
Get it together.
- Yeah, I know I've said before that I
don't have any pet peeves.
- That sucks.- That's definitely.
- Do you have another one?
Can you think of another one?
(32:42):
- No.
- Or I can just name someand you can react to them.
- Yeah, yeah, go for it.
I think I'm a pretty laid back guy.
- You're so laid back.
Oh my god, you're so laid back.
Okay, what about, thisis something I also heard
from Omy, my friend.
Nothing frustrates me more
when people pour wine where thelabel isn't facing the guest
and the hand is over thelabel, it's thoughtless.
You're not paying attention.
(33:02):
Your brain is off.
Does it bother you?- Never think about that
because I always know whatkind of wine I'm drinking.
Why do I need to see the label?
- No, I think that's just one
of those things that's like--
- But yeah, I know.
- What about Marianafrom Infatuation Miami,
one of our lovely writers there,
she likes at a fine diningrestaurant when people,
the servers are wearingt-shirts and Nikes.
(33:24):
What do you think about like outfits?
- I could care less what you're wearing.
I'm actually probably more comfortable
when everyone's wearing their own clothes.
Because they're like, okay, that's great.
You know, you're comfortable.
But at the same time, it'snice to have a uniform
'cause it's going to get dirty at work.
I just really don't care what you wear.
- What about, oh you've had dessert,
(33:45):
you've been offered coffee,
there's no check, check is not coming.
What do you think?
- This is so we go torestaurants professionally
and sometimes it's aweeknight and it's 10:00 PM
and you just want to getthe heck out of there.
- Because you're like,I got to get to work
again tomorrow morning.
Where it's so late, I'm so tired.
(34:05):
- I would say yes, pet peeve,
but also I would just ask for the check.
- You ask for the check.
Also, same kind of category.
When you have put yourcredit card on the table
and no one is coming toget it, what do you do?
- I just desperately tryto get someone's attention.
- Yeah.- But the thing is like,
I'm really non-confrontational,so I'm so bad at doing that.
- What do you do?- I'll be like, eh.
(34:27):
And then someone will look atme and I'll like look away.
So we're talking about our gripes.
Have you ever put any
of your gripes about serviceinto a restaurant review?
- If you go multiple times to a place
and you've noticed thesame thing is happening,
whether that's good, whether that's bad,
whether that's somethingin between like yeah,
If it's noteworthy enough,
I'll mention it.
What do you think?
(34:47):
- 99.9% of the time, I don'ttalk about the service.
And that is for several reasons.
It's because the service is simply good.
It's not exceptional.
It's not exceptionally bad.
The turnover inrestaurants is really high.
You don't know if the server
who is helping you yesterday is, you know,
going to be working atthe restaurant tomorrow.
- And also you don't knowif the server like just,
(35:10):
I don't know, droppedtheir phone in the toilet.
Like, or got broken up with.
Like who knows what kindof day they're having.
Or they could be like, I don't know.
You never know.
I think what we at theInfatuation try to do is
write about how a placemakes you feel like
that can be atmosphere.
But I do think serviceis a big part of that
(35:31):
because the service elements are
the experience that you're having,
that's the curatedexperience is being brought
to you if it's done well bythe people who work there.
And so if you're talkingabout Ha's Snack Bar
without mentioning the vibeof the place that's set,
that vibe is set by theactual structural space,
(35:54):
but also the people likeyou're not doing your job
as a restaurant critic is my take.
- I would agree with you there.
You should definitely paintthe fullest picture possible.
- Now that we've talkedabout this for a while,
why does service matterto you if it does matter?
Are you thinking aboutthis in a different way?
'Cause we just spent a while chatting.
- Service sets the tone for a restaurant,
service can make up for any shortcomings.
(36:15):
Service can make youirrationally love a place.
Think a place is better than it is.
But then if it does haveexceptional service,
maybe it is exactly asgood as you think it is.
Food is only part of the picture.
Service is also just, I thinka big underrated part of it.
That even we at the Infatuationdon't talk about enough.
(36:37):
You know?
- Yeah I want to talkabout it more actually.
You know, I think there's,there's room to observe
and be thoughtful abouthow much service matters.
Because I think it really does play
into a restaurant experience.
And it's also the reason, I mean,
we were joking about this,but like robot waiters
(37:00):
do exist in some capacity.
Whether it's just like those weird little
things carrying trays.
But like, there is more
and more technology beingbrought into restaurant spaces
and like, you know, ghostkitchens I think also fall
under this category.
But I'm not worried thatthat's ever going to
replace the good old fashioned restaurant
(37:20):
because you just cannotteach a little AI guy
to recognize a diners' implicit wants
and anticipate them.
Like that cannot be programmed.
And you can quote me and we'lltake a look at this episode
from the archives in 2080
when we're all living on Mars or whatever.
(37:42):
- That sounds, I guess I agree with you.
That sounds realistic, Ialso hope it doesn't happen
because if there are ever robotservers, people are going to
be so mean to those servers.
- Bully them.- Going to make humanity worse.
- Clankers?
- Did you just come up witha slur for robot servers?
- That's a slur that exists.
Clankers.
- Clankers.- Yeah.
It's, I mean, it's not offensive.
Who are we offending by saying Clankers?
- Clanker, where's my water?
(38:04):
- Oh Clanker, lemonade.
- Do you have a service horror story
or a server who singlehandedly saved your meal?
Tell us in the comments below
or reach out to us on socials.
We'd love to hear about it.
- I'm Hannah.- I'm Bryan.
- And an extra thank you to Steven
for the insider infoon restaurant service.
- Stevie B.- We love you, Stevie B.
- And thanks to you for joining us.
(38:25):
This was Restaurant People,a show from Infatuation.
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