August 7, 2025 • 56 mins
What happens when courageous leadership means heart-led leadership? The word courage comes from the Latin "cor," meaning heart. So when we talk about courageous leadership and heart-led leadership, we're really talking about the same thing.
In this conversation with Daniel Weinzveg, we explore what it takes to lead with courage and from the heart. Daniel shares his powerful, yet simple AWE framework (Acknowledge, Wonder, Express) from his TED talk that has reached over 100,000 views in just three months.
What We Talk About
- Somatic regulation and boundary work
- The AWE framework: simple actions to address the loneliness epidemic
- "Polishing your heart" to navigate the world with grace
- Leading like General Leia: both powerful and nurturing
- Creating connection through small, daily interactions
- What courageous leadership really means
Life Imitating Art
Maridelle: General Leia from Star Wars – both powerful and nurturing
Daniel: Brother Ali's "Own Light, What Hearts Are For" - being heart-centered in a callous world
Reflection Questions
How do you lead and show up with courage and heart?
How can you polish your heart so it shines?
Connect with Daniel:
Daniel’s TEDx talk: https://youtu.be/Is3hmJOD1fQ?si=TZNkVl3clex92Uzh
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dweinzveg
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-weinzveg-62b77621/
Connect with Maridelle:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maridelle-leyva-855358/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/maridelleleyva/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
So what happens when courageous leadership means heart Link leadership? This is a question I reflected on after my conversation with Daniel Weinstein for episode three of the Sage Space Podcast.
Leading from the heart, being heart-centered, listening to your heart.
(00:22):
These things take courage.
Perhaps they take more courage than almost anything else we can do in life.
The word courage actually comes from the Latin core, which means heart.
So when we talk about courageous leadership and heart led leadership, we're really talking about the same thing.
(00:46):
Daniel shared something that really struck me.
He talked about polishing his heart to find the right attunement to navigate this world with grace.
When he said that image that came to me was shining.
When you polish something, it shines.
Imagine having your heart shine.
(01:08):
Daniel also talks about the framework he shares in his TED Talk that has over a hundred thousand views.
It's called awe, a WE, which stands for acknowledge, wonder and express simple actions that can help us address the loneliness epidemic and find a place of belonging in our life.
Imitating art segment, I chose General Leia or Princess Leia from Star Wars, and coincidentally, she is a perfect example of a courageous leader who leads from the heart.
(01:40):
She's both powerful and nurturing.
This conversation is really about how we show up authentically, create connection in everyday moments, and what it means to lead with courage, which means leading from your heart.
.80272109How do you lead and show up with courage Heart.
(02:17):
Daniel, thank you for being here.
I'm so excited.
Um, can you tell me how to pronounce your last name? Wines vague.
Wines Vague.
I was gonna try that, but I thought it would be a little bit more respectful to ask you yourself because I get that all the time.
Thank you.
Thank you again.
So I start each episode with somatic regulation for us to come to a place of sudden rules, grounding and connection.
(02:47):
And what I also like to do is try to adapt it to whomever I'm talking with.
I sent you this worksheet that helps to understand our just natural stress response or adaptation response.
So I would love to hear how looking at that was for you and what you found out about yourself.
(03:12):
I opened it up and it was so immediately clear as to which quadrant I fell within without having to read any of the qualifying bullets, just the, the simple taglines or headlines of each.
So I am guilty of being in quadrant, the appeasing and keeping the peace and, uh, I self-diagnose myself more on the hypo arousal front than the hyper arousal front.
(03:41):
Okay.
So sometimes the need to up-regulate versus down-regulate when you are in a kind of more stressful or challenging situation.
Is that correct? Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Okay.
I, I think most people have a little bit of that appeasing wanting to keep the peace.
(04:03):
Sometimes people say people pleasing, but then what do we do physically to get us to a state of.
Coming out of that, what is a fear response? And I know you do a lot of work around somatic regulation as well, so thank you for allowing me to walk you through this.
(04:23):
Now, hearing that from you, what I think I'd like to do is something around boundaries, because I do think that's when we're not holding boundaries, we tend to try to find a place of safety by appeasing.
Mm-hmm.
So, um, this is, this is gonna be interesting how we walk through this because I'm gonna do, it's a tapping technique, but the reason why I say it's around boundaries is because we're gonna touch the boundaries of our body and it's can be used for either hypo or hyper arousal, but it's a, the sequence.
(05:04):
Okay, you use, so do you ever watch the Olympics or races or anything like that? It's been years since I watched sports.
Okay.
So one of the things I noticed in the last Olympics and, and I've seen this before and maybe you've seen it too, is like at the start line you see the athletes kind of punching themselves, essentially punching their legs in what looks to be a slightly aggressive way.
(05:32):
And what I realized is that what they were doing wasn't just to get their muscles ready, but they were doing a form of upregulating.
Getting their body activated is something really clicked for me.
And it was like if you tend to go into hypo arousal, shutting down a little bit, quieting, maybe getting tired in a stressful situation, you could use that tapping technique to upregulate.
(06:02):
So the sequence is to start the tapping kind of softly and more slowly, and then start doing it a little bit faster to uplift your energy.
So increase that arousal.
So I'm just gonna walk us through a very simple tapping technique up and down the arms.
(06:26):
We're gonna start by doing it a little bit more softly and slowly, and then we'll begin to upregulate by doing it more quickly and with a little bit more pressure.
Sounds great.
Okay.
So start with just soft fists.
(06:46):
Then just slowly tap and, and very gently, slowly tap on the inside of your arm and as you go down from the top of your arm, down to your wrists and breathe.
As you do this, inhaling and exhaling, tap into your palms and then slowly tap back up to the outside of your arm.
(07:11):
Tap back up to your shoulder, continuing to breathe.
As you do this, just kind of keeping it slow and gentle, and then across to your chest.
And now switch arms.
So you are using the opposite hand softness to slowly tap the inside of your arm down to your wrist, continuing to breathe, and then up.
(07:42):
To your shoulder and then your chest gently.
And this next round, tap with a little bit more speed, a little bit more force inside of your arm, continuing to breathe down to your palm, and then up a little bit more force and speed.
(08:03):
Good switching inside of the arm.
Some speed can be rhythmic.
And then up to the outside of your arm.
And now do a little bit of that tarn chest breathing, feeling your body, feeling the boundaries of your skin, your bones, knowing that these are natural boundaries to you.
(08:38):
Breathing in and out, knowing that you have natural bodies and, uh, boundaries and you get to maintain them.
Ah, good.
And when you're ready, you can just shake out your arms, taking a nice deep breath.
Good.
And shaking it out and begin to slow down your movement.
(09:06):
How are you feeling? There's so much energy running through my, my hands right now.
They're like, Ooh, coursing, pulsing.
Wow.
Okay.
Do so thanking.
Um, well if you need to shake them out, go ahead.
I love this one because, so good for most everybody, because many of us have been taught in order to be safe, you have to appease.
(09:30):
And try to keep the peace.
And then whether you need that upregulation increasing your energy or downregulation come coming to more of a place of calm, you can use this exercise, but you just change the sequence.
Either start slow, then speed up or start fast.
If you need to down regulate, then slow down.
(09:51):
Mm-hmm.
Well, thank you for that tool.
I really enjoyed that.
Thanks.
Okay, so one more fun thing.
This is the life imitating art segment where we share either a song lyric, a movie, TV novel character, a poem, a piece of art, whatever it is that represents perhaps where you've been or where you are right now, or where you are going.
(10:22):
Would you like to start or would you like me to start? You start.
And then I'm gonna pull up lyrics to make sure I I get it right.
Oh, okay.
So I, the character I chose is General Leia or Princess Leia from Star Wars and specifically General Leia.
(10:44):
In the most recent, um, movie, which was, I think it was called Rise a Skywalker.
I mean, it's both aspirational.
I, and I feel like it's also the journey I'm on where she is this recognized leader, a military leader, super well-respected, everyone looks up to her.
(11:08):
She, she presents as very powerful, and at the same time, she has this very nurturing, almost motherly quality, which I think is this just beautiful mix of.
You can be this strong, powerful leader and you can be very nurturing and loving and caring.
(11:31):
And that is what I hope to be, that kind of leader.
And I think we need more leaders like that.
Uh, and also my son is, is named Ben and General Leia's son is Ben Solo.
So that also resonated with me.
So that is the, the character I chose.
(11:58):
And, and how do you go about calling General Leia in, in those moments where you need that general lay of energy? Yeah.
You know, that's such a great question.
Um, I think it's about being yourself and being okay with that.
(12:20):
Not feeling like I have to be a certain type of leader, just being me in that moment, allowing my nurturing side and allowing this more powerful side to come in and, and they can coexist.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thanks for that question.
(12:40):
And you know, as I reflect on that, it is really about not, not filtering what I think either a mother should be a nurturing person or a leader should be.
It's just what feels right in the moment and allowing that to be me.
(13:01):
But you share.
Yeah.
So it sounds like you picked a song.
Yeah, I picked a song by one of my favorite artists, brother Ali.
Um, and this is the song's called Own Light.
What Hearts Are for.
And I mean, I could go through and I think pick any stanza from the song.
(13:24):
Um, and they've, they really speak to me.
When this album came out, this was I think maybe 2018.
Um, and as I was preparing to hop on your podcast reading this again, I was just so, so present.
So I'm gonna just choose one short verse just to give you a snippet as to the beauty and the brilliance of the song.
(13:51):
Uh, it says, know that I'm a soldier.
Hard on my battle ground sword in the holster had to come back around.
I try to hide away.
I just had to meditate.
I ain't got a lot to say, but the ancestors may speaking to the whole globe.
Numbers don't occur to me.
You can listen solo 'cause you're the whole world to me.
I jump in with both feet.
Nothing low key.
(14:11):
You can find me where I'm supposed to be, where my folks be.
If you listen very closely, you know who chose me.
Nothing that I own owns me.
And so I'm so free.
Wow.
I, I'm not familiar with that song, so thank you for sharing that.
There's so much there that I could tap into as well.
(14:32):
Um, but I, I wanna hear how that song represents either where you were or where you are, where you're going, all of the above.
Um, so what, how I understand the song is to be about, you know, coming back to heart.
How do we be heart centered in our interactions? How do we express our heart in this, you know, callous world, in ways that we can protect our hearts, but also shine our light, um, really fully.
(15:02):
And I, the more I do my life in this world, the more I do my work in this world.
The more I understand that that is, I believe that to be the most important part of this experience.
How do I polish my heart and create enough internal safety and resourcing so I can share it unabashedly and invite that in others in a world that doesn't necessarily value or appreciate heart-centered living, especially in the more corporate settings that I find myself in.
(15:43):
Yeah.
Oh, that's beautiful.
It's interesting, I haven't heard the term polishing your heart before.
I've, you know, heard softening and opening, but polishing is, that's a new one.
I, I'd love to hear a little bit more about what you mean about that.
Um, feels intentional, that word polishing.
(16:04):
I don't know if it was a Freudian slip.
I, it just kinda came out, but as I am.
Thinking about that word choice.
Um, I'm tying it back.
I might be intellectualizing this, uh, overly, but like tying it back to being, coming from a regulated state and sometimes, you know, there's an over emotionality that I might operate with, or just a muted, numbed out apathetic emotionality.
(16:34):
That's 'cause my, my heart's either too rough to take it in or it's too porous and it's taking too much in.
And so I think figuring out what is the right level of attunement that this, this organ, this cosmic thing inside my chest can operate with so that I can navigate this world with grace.
(16:57):
I think maybe that's why the Polish image came to mind.
Mm-hmm.
It's like a smooth, a smooth stone.
It's hard, it's beautiful, it's soothing, but it's solid.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love that.
The image that came to me when you said polishing as it as it's related to a heart is shining.
(17:19):
You know, when you polish something, it shines.
Yeah.
So this idea of allowing your heart to shine is, um, and, and it, but it takes some work, right? Polishing is some effort, you know, as you were, you were talking about the regulation piece, you know, uh, and how that could be this idea of polishing your heart in a way so that it can shine.
(17:47):
Very cool.
I might have to use that if I can borrow that from you.
Absolutely.
Oh, thank you.
That was fun.
It's funny when we met, oh, I guess we met a year ago, but very briefly, and then when we were reintroduced just over two weeks ago and I asked you to come on to this podcast and you so graciously said yes, I did not know that you had a Ted Talk that reached a hundred thousand views already.
(18:18):
So, um, if I had known, would I had been scared to ask you maybe, I don't know.
But thank you for agreeing and I listened to it last night and the whole thing resonated with me.
And so I love to explore it a little bit more with you, if you can share the gist of it.
(18:39):
And also, and did you just post it just this past April or was I looking at the wrong date? Or has it, I did the thing live March eight, and then the, uh, organizers of the event posted at April eight, so about a month later.
Wow.
And I've been shocked with the reception that it's got.
(18:59):
Wow.
That is incredible.
So in three months, in less than three months essentially, yeah.
Wow.
Congratulations.
Yeah, thank you.
And the acronym is A a WE.
Can you just, yeah, I have all these questions about, so I'd love to about, yeah.
So Im happy to get the frame.
Um, so I, there's so much out there about this loneliness epidemic and a lot of the research that's out there is very academic and it, all of the initiatives that I keep coming across, whether it's in the newspaper or some of these research papers.
(19:39):
It seems so cantankerous and overly complex.
You know, we're gonna launch this initiative, or people are doing these beautiful businesses, making these B Corps or nonprofits to attack this issue.
Governments are trying to think about how we can redesign cities and it is it.
It's all in good effort.
But I really feel in my own experience that it's been these really small things, these small moments in time when I've felt most connected and like I belong to something beyond my family unit, beyond my tribe at the synagogue.
(20:14):
And I wasn't hearing much about it.
And so the work that I do, the things that I'm interested in, I think there's a common thread of autonomy and empowerment.
And so how can we solve our own issues without looking to some institution that's got all sorts of other incentives to do what they do.
(20:36):
And so in thinking about this issue in my life, I kind of broke it down into, um, a simple framework.
I do management consulting, so I love frameworks, be simple letters, um, acknowledgement, wonder and express.
And these are things that we can do in all of our daily interactions, whether we're at the store, whether we're in our car, whether we're with a parent or a child.
(21:00):
Simple actions, um, acknowledging I, I live down here in Mexico and every person that we pass on the street or in the car we wave to, and it's just culturally what they do down here.
And it feels like, oh, okay, I don't know these people, but there's some level of recognition.
You exist.
(21:20):
I see you with a smile.
It's subtle, but it's bonding.
Um, and then wondering the act and the art of interest, of asking questions, of being curious about.
The experience of another and simple questions that kind of pierce beyond the surface conversation that we tend to have.
(21:42):
How you doing? That's great.
Can we get a, a level deeper? You know what, what's sliding you up today is the example I use and the, the TED talk.
And there's a million other, just little reframes rewording of the way that we introduce and connect with people, whether they're the cashier, whether they're the, um, barista.
(22:04):
Just small ways that we can like, really let someone know.
I I'm available to hear you.
And then the final one is expression.
In, in this western world, we tend to kind of over index on linguistic and linear forms of expression.
So you know all the people on the cover of.
Forbes and Newsweek, they've got like science and math minds, or they're great orators and we keep electing these people, um, to these powerful positions, these leadership roles.
(22:34):
And there's so many other ways that brilliance gets expressed.
And so trying to honor and invite folks to express their brilliance in the way that is most inherent to them.
I'm very kinesthetic, so I'm gonna use a lot of gestures.
I'm going to kind of move around.
(22:56):
I'm can better tell you how I'm doing with my body than with my words.
And so trying to make space for that in our day-to-day lives.
And that, I think one way we can all do that is just being a bit more expressive.
Like when I hear music in the grocery store, I find myself kind of bugging to it.
(23:16):
And just by doing that you can, what you just did, you can crack a smile on people.
Who might be feeling some sort of way, having some sort of day, but they see somebody kind of being a bit more expressive and expanding the, what normal is in the moment.
These are ways that we can begin to build loose ties that can then change into, you know, close ties.
(23:40):
Yeah, it's really beautiful.
Thank you for explaining that.
When I, I heard these terms, a few things I kind of aligned them with and I, I've done work around diversity, inclusion, and belonging.
Um, and so it's very much the, the belonging piece and I was like, yes.
(24:03):
And it even goes beyond that because I also thought about, uh, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the deficiency needs.
Um, so there's the physical piece, there's the safety piece.
Love and belonging and then esteem needs and the acknowledgement.
(24:23):
And a wonder I was, I put those together and it's almost this very simple way to express or help support meeting the love and belonging and um, the steam needs.
And when we don't have those, our nervous system detects those as danger, whether it's, you know, social danger or physical danger.
(24:51):
Our brains don't, don't know the difference.
It just feels like fear and danger.
And I think that is so tied to this idea of, of loneliness and how people are experiencing loneliness as fear and it deteriorates the body.
And so for me, when I heard you talking about acknowledge.
(25:14):
Wonder.
It's actively seeing someone, recognizing them, pulling them into this place of belonging, which completely addresses this fundamental human need around love and belonging and, and esteem.
And those are the deficiency needs, meaning, um, we're motivated by the lack of it.
(25:38):
Mm-hmm.
And it also, those are the things when we don't have our bodies essentially begin to deteriorate.
And, um, the disease now.
So diseases associated with loneliness kind of shows how that, how that manifests.
So it just like really clicked to me in this, bringing the, the science, whether some, you know, everyone questions whether Maslow's hierarchy of needs is scientific.
(26:07):
And I think some of it really is and express to that.
And there are detractors, but it.
It's a simple, how do you take this science and then just have a very simple way to express it in our world.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think more and more, you know, recent research as loneliness and belonging becomes more of a, uh, comes to the forefront of our culture, we're seeing the science back up what Maslow is saying, that we need these things, we need these bonds socially to be able to be mentally and physically well.
(26:45):
They're equating that if you have less than five close bonds, then you're, you know, that's the same as smoking a pack of cigarettes a day in terms of longevity of life.
So the level of cortisol that is f rocking your system is just deteriorating your organs, your capacity to think clearly, to strategize, um.
(27:08):
I think, uh, the, the next layer that as I was doing the research and preparing for the talk that I began to tune into, you know, I, I'm preparing for this as the United States is going through an election.
Um, and I started to think a lot about, you know, longing out and got two camps seeking belonging and the amount of kind of tribal bonding that we're seeing in the states.
(27:37):
You know, left, right, blue, red, um, citizen immigrant and there's a place for it.
Like we, I think that's a first layer of belonging.
You find people that look like you, that think like you 'cause it's safe, and you can be with them and have all your confirmation bias and we gotta get beyond that.
(28:01):
Um, so what I've been playing with recently is thinking, okay.
Bonding is the first layer of this belonging cake that we need.
There's also this layer of bridging.
So how can I feel safe and regulated enough in my being to then reach across the, the street and get curious about your experience? You've lived a completely different life than me.
(28:29):
I need to be coming from a place where I'm not trying to prove or one up you that I can actually learn from.
You.
Learn about you.
Yeah.
I mean, I, it's interesting you talked about it as a cake.
Um, 'cause it is multilayered.
I'm curious a little bit more about the express piece and maybe this is my mind overthinking.
(28:53):
Um, because I think it's this, like for me it's like, oh, what does express mean to me? And I'm having a hard time jumping to what.
That might look like.
So this is, uh, me jumping off of Dr.
Howard Gardner's multiple intelligence theory.
(29:14):
He says, you know, there's, I think he has eight different intelligences, um, and other people have gone on, taken his research and said, oh, there's far more, or should, there's only four.
Um, but it's around how brilliance gets expressed.
So some people are super facile with oration.
They can speak.
(29:34):
I, the image that always comes to mind is Obama man was an amazing speaker.
And then we've got folks who are brilliant with numbers and logical sequences just comes innately to them.
Einstein is the, the archetype.
He, he might not have been able to express himself, might not have been that charismatic, but his logic was a, you know, just sound.
(29:59):
Um, and then there's people who.
Have neither of those skills, and they're still brilliant.
You've got peop athletes who are totally in their body, the control that they have of their being.
Um, you watch these dancers just do the most amazing grand and minute movements, so they've got a kinesthetic brilliance to them.
(30:23):
And then there's folks like, um, Darwin or Jane Goodall who we might describe as Naturalistically.
Brilliant.
They see the patterns in the world, and that's how they understand the world.
They just, they have some innate capacity to go there.
I other are, I think, visual and spatial.
(30:47):
So we can think of artists, architects, um, music, so folks who auditorily, you know, I think about the people who can hear a song.
Then jump on the piano and play it.
I've got a dear friend, Teo, who can play almost any instrument that so hands him whether he's played it before or not.
(31:10):
Yeah.
How does that then facilitate connection and belonging? I believe it facilitates it because we're inviting people to share in the domain that they have the most confidence and comfort in sharing and expressing themselves.
(31:36):
So in so many, um, kind of Western normalized settings, it's the people who have their hand up the quickest and who are the best speakers who we're gonna follow.
It doesn't matter the quality of their idea, their ability to influence by just the spoken word.
(31:57):
Wins every time.
And there's, we're missing out on so many other forms of brilliance by only, you know, honoring and celebrating the spoken word, I think about the symbols.
Yeah.
And like how, how beautifully and brilliantly artists use metaphor, um, and similarly and how thinking in those terms often helps us see beyond the horizon that we're looking at.
(32:28):
And I think especially in this moment in time, that's what we need to be.
Those are the conversations that we need to be in because the horizon keeps changing.
Um, so we need to be able to think, you know, beyond it, because we've got the tools where we can actually design and build for the most outlandish things.
(32:48):
But if we keep, you know, just focusing on what we can see and hear, we're, we're grossly limited.
To meet the adaptive challenges that we face.
There's a word you specifically said, and it was sharing, like, sharing that.
And that I feel like is, is that's the nugget.
(33:11):
Because how someone shares what they have in terms of their intelligence, in terms of their, that kind of innate thing that you're talking about.
That's where now I'm connecting.
That's where the express piece, I feel like for me that's, that's where it's, I now I get that connection.
(33:32):
It is in the act of sharing what's in you and then this, the others.
'cause it's not necessarily a sequence, right.
The the knowledge piece.
And the wonder piece then is almost this opening to what is being shared.
Mm-hmm.
And it is this really like virtuous cycle.
(33:54):
Am I getting that right? I love that.
You, you see it as a cycle.
I, I understand it to be as such, and I think all these elements are standalone as well.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, and so that's why I think it's a really good kind of mnemonic for thinking about how can we feel belonging? How can I acknowledge myself? How can I get curious about myself? How can I express myself as well as the external manifestation? And how can I acknowledge those around me? How can I get curious about them? Mm-hmm.
(34:26):
How can I invite them to share? I love share.
That's so it's simple to share their brilliance.
Their genius with me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And how do you get comfortable sharing yours? Because it may not look like what's expected.
So that's, yeah.
I love that it's standalone, it's internal, it's external.
(34:49):
It can be as this virtuous cycle.
Is the sequence.
It's not a sequence.
Um, and that's, you know, that's, that's the way my mind thinks often is like, oh, is this the sequence? Is this how it goes? And it's such a good reminder that we need to break some of those patterns of assuming a sequence, assuming, assuming a cycle, assuming that things have to go together, versus yes, this can be standalone.
(35:16):
Yes, this can be internal, external.
And so thank you.
You're welcome.
Awesome for expanding, expanding my brain.
Um, and I love the simplicity of it and I'm so happy that, um, so many people have been exposed to it and I trust that more and more people will as well.
(35:39):
But the comments I've received, I can't tell you how content I've become.
Uh, just hearing people say, you know, I'm, I'm a social worker and I've been using this with my clients and I'm, I'm getting into rapport quicker with them.
I just think of, you know, some of the, the teachers that have made comments akin to that, it's like the amount of lives that are going to be touched by this simple mm-hmm.
(36:03):
These simple acts.
Um, and that I had some small part in it.
It is like, oh yeah, it's enough.
Yeah.
You know, you see the ripple and those ripples never end.
So ripples of belonging.
Yes, please.
I love it.
I love it.
(36:23):
If there's enough of us throwing those pebbles in, then the ripples of belonging will just continue.
Then there'll be waves.
So, yeah.
Thank you.
That was fun.
That, and it was very helpful for me to just look at a new framework.
I love frameworks, but also now that we've talked about it, I'm seeing it even, um, it differently, more expansive, really than I had originally saw when I, when I listened to it last.
(36:51):
My first draft of the speech was about 22 minutes, and I was like, oh, I nailed it.
And they're like, now we need it to be eight, eight minutes.
So I pushed 'em to nine, but there's, there's only so much you can condense them to that little space.
Wow.
Yeah.
I can't, I can't imagine.
So could you, and the more we got distilled, the more ideas and clarity I got.
(37:13):
So I was like this, you know, expand contract.
Contract, expand, contract contract.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's such a good practice.
Thank you.
Thank you for indulging me and, and answering questions, uh, about your lovely TED talk and the a WE, the offer framework.
Um, I'd love to open it to what you wanna talk about.
(37:34):
So I love this idea of sage space that you're holding.
And the other day, in a deep meditative state, this, these words came to me, um, heart space.
And this came after a series of comments about, you know, I can feel your heart.
(37:57):
Uh, you've got such a big heart comments like that, that I've received a handful recently, but this is tracked for most of my life.
So I'm starting to see that that is the, you know, if we're talking business terms, that is the value that I bring my clients.
I help create hard space in these settings.
So I am in this challenge of wanting to be more, share more about what I care about in the work that I'm doing.
(38:25):
I, you know, consultants, I am responding to the needs of another, and I'd like to be more explicit about the, the medicine, the magic, the impact that I'm actually bringing.
And I don't quite know how to talk about heart in the, the corporate.
(38:47):
Setting.
Um, I've, you know, belonging I think was one attempt Yeah.
At it.
Um, but I'd like to be more explicit and more aligned around the work that I wanna do to attract the, the right people.
I'm afraid if I lead with heart-centered leadership or heart space, that that's acts as more of a repellent because it feels soft.
(39:15):
It feels wishy-washy.
It doesn't meet, you know, our bottom line.
Yeah.
I'm curious, uh, because you first said as a consultant, you respond to what a client needs, what they want, what they're asking for.
Can you gimme an example of what one of those things are when you, let's say your most recent engagement.
(39:42):
What was the problem they were coming to you with? And what were, what were they, they hoping, what were they hoping the outcome would be with the work they did with you? So, the most recent client came to me needing support, developing a strategic plan.
(40:02):
The board and the staff are fairly far away from one another in terms of their visions and their hopes for what this entity is.
And, um, it's very top down and there's a lot of talk about, you know, equity and inclusion, belonging being core pillars of the work.
(40:29):
Mm-hmm.
And they wanted you to bring those two groups closer together.
They wanted you to, um, have, get alignment.
What was, what was the outcome you were all trying to achieve? Boost engagement and morale is one outcome.
(40:52):
Um, increase alignment and clarity amongst these two stakeholders and then develop a short term plan that gets the group from where we currently are to where the closer to the achieving the organization's mission.
(41:13):
Okay.
So, so ideally if I, uh, can kind of paraphrase or bring together what you said.
Ideally, if a client comes with you to you with this problem and they wanna achieve improved engagement, morale, alignment, alignment, clarity, and an actionable plan, you would, as you were talking about heart HeartSpace, wanna take this conversation to say, to say.
(41:44):
This is about your heart.
This is about tell, tell me what, like, because any problem can be solved in a variety of ways.
And if you are saying you want this to be more heart led, or like, this is a magic you're bringing, how would you press that? I think even talking around the, like the methodology or the, what the experience is going to be like through the process that, you know, I I'll design, facilitate us through, um, being far more explicit around where this is coming from, the types of conversations we'll be having.
(42:27):
This isn't spreadsheets and blueprints.
This is really tending to the relational field.
And do you think that approach can still achieve the outcomes? Oh, ab, absolutely.
(42:48):
Okay.
Okay.
I think my, my challenge is I have been, I don't wanna say subversive, but I've, I, this is the work I've been doing, but I haven't been explicit about it.
And I, and I have this, this feeling that if I'm more explicit about it in my, in my marketing of it, in my selling of it, that I'll be attracting clients that are even more aligned, that I can do even deeper, better work with.
(43:24):
Mm-hmm.
Because I'm not Yeah.
Trying to business jargony what I do.
I can just do it.
Yeah.
I mean, you've already have the answer right there.
What was coming to me is this idea of, um, courage.
Because it's courage is so aligned with the heart, and that feels one super necessary and really hard to come to a place to when you are in your day-to-day work.
(44:00):
Like how can you act from a place of courage, which means acting from a place of heart.
And you have every, almost every metaphor around heart can be, um, associated with or courage associated with a lion.
(44:22):
And you still, you know, you have the wizard, the Wizard of Oz, like every, like, it, it feels like a almost powerful discussion.
It's like.
What, what do you, as a leader, what do you equate to as in as courage? Like what comes into your mind immediately and it's heart and we're so often stuck in, as you were talking about when we first started, that, um, appease and keep the peace zone.
(44:57):
I think we're always in, often in that zone at work where it's like, okay, I don't wanna push the boundaries too much.
And that takes us to a place of separating ourselves from our heart because it might take too much.
'cause it takes too much courage.
And when you're in a state of fear, you're not gonna be in a, a state of courage.
(45:18):
Yeah.
You, you, you nailed it there with when you said courage.
I got goosebumps and a bit choked up.
'cause I think that's, that's the crux of it.
Yeah.
Being a bit more, and I feel.
Leading with courage then naturally leads to a conversation about heart and the practices and tools that you bring that allow people to be in their heart so that they can be in a place or lead with courage.
(45:55):
And you can even reference like every military, almost every military slogan is about courage, and it almost naturally means that it's about heart.
I You're good? Oh, yeah.
Oh, thank you.
I love that.
(46:16):
You can say that again.
Um, anyway, I, I, and you know what, for me too, I've been in so many situations where I didn't have the courage to do what was in my heart.
Um.
And either from a, from a work perspective, personal perspective, relational, even with, um, with trusting myself.
(46:42):
So there's another thing coming up around trust as well.
If you think about maybe these, uh, potential pillars, courage, trust, there's probably something else with maybe heart being like the found foundational piece to it.
There, there's something there.
I I am not able to kind of articulate it right now, but I feel like there's, there are these pillars that then allow, or that are facilitated by being in a place of heart and the tools you have, you already know the tools that you use, but maybe they're framed differently because it's hard to talk about heart and love, you know, in a corporate situation.
(47:23):
But I do think that there's, there's something, something there, and.
Yeah, there's studies and research is, is very strong around, um, the importance of trust in leadership.
Oh yeah.
The importance of courage when it comes to leadership.
And then there's this other piece, and I, I'm reluctant to use this word, but it's the only one that feels right currently is authenticity.
(47:50):
And authenticity around leadership is also has been shown to be like such an important part of effective leadership.
And to get all that is connecting to your heart.
A hundred percent.
A hundred percent.
The, the, the word authenticity is I think, really important here.
(48:13):
It gets, I think, overused, I get the kinda aversion to, to drop on the, a bomb leaders carry weather, you know, and they, and that.
Can be physically like monitored by, you know, the heart resonance.
So when the person with the most power in the system shows up and their heart is activated or depressive or frustrated and angry, even if the, the words and there's not alignment that's, you know, expressed it is felt throughout the system.
(48:46):
Um, yeah.
Yeah.
Now this is coming full circle for me.
Um, well, the, the term you, you, you just talked about in terms of whether is neuroception, um, so neuroception, 'cause we are as, as human beings, we naturally, the first we sense through our nervous system whether an environment is safe, safe to trust, safe to love, safe to connect.
(49:16):
And I am going back to when you talked about, um, polishing.
Your heart.
I think there's something here about this idea of the work you do, the work you bring to clients.
It's almost this idea of, of polishing the heart so that as a leader, they can shine, their heart can shine in a way that, um, engages, you know, trust it, it, it will improve productivity and performance, creativity, innovation, all of that.
(49:58):
It's all connected.
And I don't know, there feels like something around this idea of polishing and it's again, a word I'd never heard associated with heart before, which is cool, but there's some work.
Polishing takes work.
And so if you're gonna, if you're gonna shine, there's, what do you do to polish your heart? Maybe your mind, your being, whatever it is, so that you can shine, feels like there might be something there.
(50:31):
Yeah, absolutely.
I've been banding around facilitative leadership, servant leadership, um, as a way of trying to get to the heart of what I'm really talking about is like being in service of others, supporting others, giving more than, you know, getting, not being out front, you know, with the sphere, but being behind helping people express themselves more fully.
(50:59):
Um, but I think there's, at the root of it, you, you just queued right in on it.
This is about courage, this is about trust, and both these things are found within us in our heart.
Yeah.
Yeah.
If somebody, um, said, oh, I'm doing a workshop on courageous leadership.
(51:21):
There would be a million people signing up, especially around courageous leadership in the context of where we are today.
And I think it's so easy to talk about leadership that is anything but but courageous.
And the fact that you have science research back tools and that you've already done it, I think feels super, um, aligned to you to who you are and aligned to what's needed right now.
(52:03):
I I, I'm kind of shocked at how, how quickly you, you just got us to where I've been scratching out and confused about for some time.
Courage core.
It's right there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
French for fire.
Yeah, that's right.
You, that's it.
Um, to be able to lead with that and feel like, yeah, that's right.
And this is about meeting the moment.
(52:24):
Yes.
Which take leadership, which takes real courage, not the the synthetic courage that we're seeing left and right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And the etymology.
I love that you brought that in.
Yeah.
I mean, courage is heart.
Courage is heart.
It's right there in the word.
Yay.
Amazing.
Problem solved that take you high.
(52:45):
Six minutes.
Oh.
Oh, that was really fun.
That was really fun.
Thank you on that for that journey.
And what's interesting, I don't think we would've gotten there if in the beginning you hadn't talked about where you are right now with that, with the song and talking about like where your heart is and polishing your heart and it all.
(53:10):
Came together, it all really came together, which just means it's, it's in you already.
It's already in you.
So you're just ready to go.
I, I wanna shine it out there.
I wanna shine it brighter.
Wow.
Let's pause.
I think that's, let's follow.
That was the big challenge behind the TED Talk for me.
Um, when, when we had initially met a year ago, this was not on the radar.
(53:33):
Mm.
Uh, but as that summer progressed, the question that I was living in is like, how can I be more true to myself for myself, given so much of my work is in response to others.
Yeah.
And my friend system, family system, I'm very much the, I'm here for you.
I got your back.
Yeah.
Um, and so the, the TED Talk was, I think the largest expression of me sharing what I really deeply care about, what I wanna be talking about, the world I wanna be living in, the work that I want to be in support of, um.
(54:07):
Yeah.
And so to be able to begin naming it more clearly in a way that is attractive instead of confusing, I think I've been confusing.
Leading with courage is Yes, is clear.
Um, yes.
And I will also add, I think the next piece, if I can, um, provide one more piece of wisdom is what are the pillars of this that are unique to you? I know you, you already are doing things that look and feel very unique there are a million consultants that would do a strategy session or, you know, bringing engagement and morale and they would do it completely differently than you.
(54:56):
So how do you get to a point where you have these very clear pillars? Around courageous leadership.
So it is easy to understand.
So it's like, oh, I'm not at all confused about the experience I'm gonna have as a leader.
I know what I'm gonna experience.
(55:18):
So that would be, I think, your next piece of work.
How do you categorize the things that you're already doing so that they look like these clear pillars that support courageous leadership? Thank you for the homework.
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm on this, this feels so alive for me.
This feels so, oh, good.
Good.
(55:38):
So alive.
Good.
Good.
Okay.
I am, I, this makes me so happy.
I'm just, I'm alive right now too, so I feel like that might be a good place for us to close this, this podcast.
Thank you so much for, for having me on for your interest and my story and my perspective.
(55:58):
That was super fun.
Thank you so much
So what happens when courageous leadership means heart Link leadership? This is a question I reflected on after my conversation with Daniel Weinstein for episode three of the Sage Space Podcast.
Leading from the heart, being heart-centered, listening to your heart.
(00:22):
These things take courage.
Perhaps they take more courage than almost anything else we can do in life.
The word courage actually comes from the Latin core, which means heart.
So when we talk about courageous leadership and heart led leadership, we're really talking about the same thing.
(00:46):
Daniel shared something that really struck me.
He talked about polishing his heart to find the right attunement to navigate this world with grace.
When he said that image that came to me was shining.
When you polish something, it shines.
Imagine having your heart shine.
(01:08):
Daniel also talks about the framework he shares in his TED Talk that has over a hundred thousand views.
It's called awe, a WE, which stands for acknowledge, wonder and express simple actions that can help us address the loneliness epidemic and find a place of belonging in our life.
Imitating art segment, I chose General Leia or Princess Leia from Star Wars, and coincidentally, she is a perfect example of a courageous leader who leads from the heart.
(01:40):
She's both powerful and nurturing.
This conversation is really about how we show up authentically, create connection in everyday moments, and what it means to lead with courage, which means leading from your heart.
.80272109How do you lead and show up with courage Heart.
(02:17):
Daniel, thank you for being here.
I'm so excited.
Um, can you tell me how to pronounce your last name? Wines vague.
Wines Vague.
I was gonna try that, but I thought it would be a little bit more respectful to ask you yourself because I get that all the time.
Thank you.
Thank you again.
So I start each episode with somatic regulation for us to come to a place of sudden rules, grounding and connection.
(02:47):
And what I also like to do is try to adapt it to whomever I'm talking with.
I sent you this worksheet that helps to understand our just natural stress response or adaptation response.
So I would love to hear how looking at that was for you and what you found out about yourself.
(03:12):
I opened it up and it was so immediately clear as to which quadrant I fell within without having to read any of the qualifying bullets, just the, the simple taglines or headlines of each.
So I am guilty of being in quadrant, the appeasing and keeping the peace and, uh, I self-diagnose myself more on the hypo arousal front than the hyper arousal front.
(03:41):
Okay.
So sometimes the need to up-regulate versus down-regulate when you are in a kind of more stressful or challenging situation.
Is that correct? Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Okay.
I, I think most people have a little bit of that appeasing wanting to keep the peace.
(04:03):
Sometimes people say people pleasing, but then what do we do physically to get us to a state of.
Coming out of that, what is a fear response? And I know you do a lot of work around somatic regulation as well, so thank you for allowing me to walk you through this.
(04:23):
Now, hearing that from you, what I think I'd like to do is something around boundaries, because I do think that's when we're not holding boundaries, we tend to try to find a place of safety by appeasing.
Mm-hmm.
So, um, this is, this is gonna be interesting how we walk through this because I'm gonna do, it's a tapping technique, but the reason why I say it's around boundaries is because we're gonna touch the boundaries of our body and it's can be used for either hypo or hyper arousal, but it's a, the sequence.
(05:04):
Okay, you use, so do you ever watch the Olympics or races or anything like that? It's been years since I watched sports.
Okay.
So one of the things I noticed in the last Olympics and, and I've seen this before and maybe you've seen it too, is like at the start line you see the athletes kind of punching themselves, essentially punching their legs in what looks to be a slightly aggressive way.
(05:32):
And what I realized is that what they were doing wasn't just to get their muscles ready, but they were doing a form of upregulating.
Getting their body activated is something really clicked for me.
And it was like if you tend to go into hypo arousal, shutting down a little bit, quieting, maybe getting tired in a stressful situation, you could use that tapping technique to upregulate.
(06:02):
So the sequence is to start the tapping kind of softly and more slowly, and then start doing it a little bit faster to uplift your energy.
So increase that arousal.
So I'm just gonna walk us through a very simple tapping technique up and down the arms.
(06:26):
We're gonna start by doing it a little bit more softly and slowly, and then we'll begin to upregulate by doing it more quickly and with a little bit more pressure.
Sounds great.
Okay.
So start with just soft fists.
(06:46):
Then just slowly tap and, and very gently, slowly tap on the inside of your arm and as you go down from the top of your arm, down to your wrists and breathe.
As you do this, inhaling and exhaling, tap into your palms and then slowly tap back up to the outside of your arm.
(07:11):
Tap back up to your shoulder, continuing to breathe.
As you do this, just kind of keeping it slow and gentle, and then across to your chest.
And now switch arms.
So you are using the opposite hand softness to slowly tap the inside of your arm down to your wrist, continuing to breathe, and then up.
(07:42):
To your shoulder and then your chest gently.
And this next round, tap with a little bit more speed, a little bit more force inside of your arm, continuing to breathe down to your palm, and then up a little bit more force and speed.
(08:03):
Good switching inside of the arm.
Some speed can be rhythmic.
And then up to the outside of your arm.
And now do a little bit of that tarn chest breathing, feeling your body, feeling the boundaries of your skin, your bones, knowing that these are natural boundaries to you.
(08:38):
Breathing in and out, knowing that you have natural bodies and, uh, boundaries and you get to maintain them.
Ah, good.
And when you're ready, you can just shake out your arms, taking a nice deep breath.
Good.
And shaking it out and begin to slow down your movement.
(09:06):
How are you feeling? There's so much energy running through my, my hands right now.
They're like, Ooh, coursing, pulsing.
Wow.
Okay.
Do so thanking.
Um, well if you need to shake them out, go ahead.
I love this one because, so good for most everybody, because many of us have been taught in order to be safe, you have to appease.
(09:30):
And try to keep the peace.
And then whether you need that upregulation increasing your energy or downregulation come coming to more of a place of calm, you can use this exercise, but you just change the sequence.
Either start slow, then speed up or start fast.
If you need to down regulate, then slow down.
(09:51):
Mm-hmm.
Well, thank you for that tool.
I really enjoyed that.
Thanks.
Okay, so one more fun thing.
This is the life imitating art segment where we share either a song lyric, a movie, TV novel character, a poem, a piece of art, whatever it is that represents perhaps where you've been or where you are right now, or where you are going.
(10:22):
Would you like to start or would you like me to start? You start.
And then I'm gonna pull up lyrics to make sure I I get it right.
Oh, okay.
So I, the character I chose is General Leia or Princess Leia from Star Wars and specifically General Leia.
(10:44):
In the most recent, um, movie, which was, I think it was called Rise a Skywalker.
I mean, it's both aspirational.
I, and I feel like it's also the journey I'm on where she is this recognized leader, a military leader, super well-respected, everyone looks up to her.
(11:08):
She, she presents as very powerful, and at the same time, she has this very nurturing, almost motherly quality, which I think is this just beautiful mix of.
You can be this strong, powerful leader and you can be very nurturing and loving and caring.
(11:31):
And that is what I hope to be, that kind of leader.
And I think we need more leaders like that.
Uh, and also my son is, is named Ben and General Leia's son is Ben Solo.
So that also resonated with me.
So that is the, the character I chose.
(11:58):
And, and how do you go about calling General Leia in, in those moments where you need that general lay of energy? Yeah.
You know, that's such a great question.
Um, I think it's about being yourself and being okay with that.
(12:20):
Not feeling like I have to be a certain type of leader, just being me in that moment, allowing my nurturing side and allowing this more powerful side to come in and, and they can coexist.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thanks for that question.
(12:40):
And you know, as I reflect on that, it is really about not, not filtering what I think either a mother should be a nurturing person or a leader should be.
It's just what feels right in the moment and allowing that to be me.
(13:01):
But you share.
Yeah.
So it sounds like you picked a song.
Yeah, I picked a song by one of my favorite artists, brother Ali.
Um, and this is the song's called Own Light.
What Hearts Are for.
And I mean, I could go through and I think pick any stanza from the song.
(13:24):
Um, and they've, they really speak to me.
When this album came out, this was I think maybe 2018.
Um, and as I was preparing to hop on your podcast reading this again, I was just so, so present.
So I'm gonna just choose one short verse just to give you a snippet as to the beauty and the brilliance of the song.
(13:51):
Uh, it says, know that I'm a soldier.
Hard on my battle ground sword in the holster had to come back around.
I try to hide away.
I just had to meditate.
I ain't got a lot to say, but the ancestors may speaking to the whole globe.
Numbers don't occur to me.
You can listen solo 'cause you're the whole world to me.
I jump in with both feet.
Nothing low key.
(14:11):
You can find me where I'm supposed to be, where my folks be.
If you listen very closely, you know who chose me.
Nothing that I own owns me.
And so I'm so free.
Wow.
I, I'm not familiar with that song, so thank you for sharing that.
There's so much there that I could tap into as well.
(14:32):
Um, but I, I wanna hear how that song represents either where you were or where you are, where you're going, all of the above.
Um, so what, how I understand the song is to be about, you know, coming back to heart.
How do we be heart centered in our interactions? How do we express our heart in this, you know, callous world, in ways that we can protect our hearts, but also shine our light, um, really fully.
(15:02):
And I, the more I do my life in this world, the more I do my work in this world.
The more I understand that that is, I believe that to be the most important part of this experience.
How do I polish my heart and create enough internal safety and resourcing so I can share it unabashedly and invite that in others in a world that doesn't necessarily value or appreciate heart-centered living, especially in the more corporate settings that I find myself in.
(15:43):
Yeah.
Oh, that's beautiful.
It's interesting, I haven't heard the term polishing your heart before.
I've, you know, heard softening and opening, but polishing is, that's a new one.
I, I'd love to hear a little bit more about what you mean about that.
Um, feels intentional, that word polishing.
(16:04):
I don't know if it was a Freudian slip.
I, it just kinda came out, but as I am.
Thinking about that word choice.
Um, I'm tying it back.
I might be intellectualizing this, uh, overly, but like tying it back to being, coming from a regulated state and sometimes, you know, there's an over emotionality that I might operate with, or just a muted, numbed out apathetic emotionality.
(16:34):
That's 'cause my, my heart's either too rough to take it in or it's too porous and it's taking too much in.
And so I think figuring out what is the right level of attunement that this, this organ, this cosmic thing inside my chest can operate with so that I can navigate this world with grace.
(16:57):
I think maybe that's why the Polish image came to mind.
Mm-hmm.
It's like a smooth, a smooth stone.
It's hard, it's beautiful, it's soothing, but it's solid.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love that.
The image that came to me when you said polishing as it as it's related to a heart is shining.
(17:19):
You know, when you polish something, it shines.
Yeah.
So this idea of allowing your heart to shine is, um, and, and it, but it takes some work, right? Polishing is some effort, you know, as you were, you were talking about the regulation piece, you know, uh, and how that could be this idea of polishing your heart in a way so that it can shine.
(17:47):
Very cool.
I might have to use that if I can borrow that from you.
Absolutely.
Oh, thank you.
That was fun.
It's funny when we met, oh, I guess we met a year ago, but very briefly, and then when we were reintroduced just over two weeks ago and I asked you to come on to this podcast and you so graciously said yes, I did not know that you had a Ted Talk that reached a hundred thousand views already.
(18:18):
So, um, if I had known, would I had been scared to ask you maybe, I don't know.
But thank you for agreeing and I listened to it last night and the whole thing resonated with me.
And so I love to explore it a little bit more with you, if you can share the gist of it.
(18:39):
And also, and did you just post it just this past April or was I looking at the wrong date? Or has it, I did the thing live March eight, and then the, uh, organizers of the event posted at April eight, so about a month later.
Wow.
And I've been shocked with the reception that it's got.
(18:59):
Wow.
That is incredible.
So in three months, in less than three months essentially, yeah.
Wow.
Congratulations.
Yeah, thank you.
And the acronym is A a WE.
Can you just, yeah, I have all these questions about, so I'd love to about, yeah.
So Im happy to get the frame.
Um, so I, there's so much out there about this loneliness epidemic and a lot of the research that's out there is very academic and it, all of the initiatives that I keep coming across, whether it's in the newspaper or some of these research papers.
(19:39):
It seems so cantankerous and overly complex.
You know, we're gonna launch this initiative, or people are doing these beautiful businesses, making these B Corps or nonprofits to attack this issue.
Governments are trying to think about how we can redesign cities and it is it.
It's all in good effort.
But I really feel in my own experience that it's been these really small things, these small moments in time when I've felt most connected and like I belong to something beyond my family unit, beyond my tribe at the synagogue.
(20:14):
And I wasn't hearing much about it.
And so the work that I do, the things that I'm interested in, I think there's a common thread of autonomy and empowerment.
And so how can we solve our own issues without looking to some institution that's got all sorts of other incentives to do what they do.
(20:36):
And so in thinking about this issue in my life, I kind of broke it down into, um, a simple framework.
I do management consulting, so I love frameworks, be simple letters, um, acknowledgement, wonder and express.
And these are things that we can do in all of our daily interactions, whether we're at the store, whether we're in our car, whether we're with a parent or a child.
(21:00):
Simple actions, um, acknowledging I, I live down here in Mexico and every person that we pass on the street or in the car we wave to, and it's just culturally what they do down here.
And it feels like, oh, okay, I don't know these people, but there's some level of recognition.
You exist.
(21:20):
I see you with a smile.
It's subtle, but it's bonding.
Um, and then wondering the act and the art of interest, of asking questions, of being curious about.
The experience of another and simple questions that kind of pierce beyond the surface conversation that we tend to have.
(21:42):
How you doing? That's great.
Can we get a, a level deeper? You know what, what's sliding you up today is the example I use and the, the TED talk.
And there's a million other, just little reframes rewording of the way that we introduce and connect with people, whether they're the cashier, whether they're the, um, barista.
(22:04):
Just small ways that we can like, really let someone know.
I I'm available to hear you.
And then the final one is expression.
In, in this western world, we tend to kind of over index on linguistic and linear forms of expression.
So you know all the people on the cover of.
Forbes and Newsweek, they've got like science and math minds, or they're great orators and we keep electing these people, um, to these powerful positions, these leadership roles.
(22:34):
And there's so many other ways that brilliance gets expressed.
And so trying to honor and invite folks to express their brilliance in the way that is most inherent to them.
I'm very kinesthetic, so I'm gonna use a lot of gestures.
I'm going to kind of move around.
(22:56):
I'm can better tell you how I'm doing with my body than with my words.
And so trying to make space for that in our day-to-day lives.
And that, I think one way we can all do that is just being a bit more expressive.
Like when I hear music in the grocery store, I find myself kind of bugging to it.
(23:16):
And just by doing that you can, what you just did, you can crack a smile on people.
Who might be feeling some sort of way, having some sort of day, but they see somebody kind of being a bit more expressive and expanding the, what normal is in the moment.
These are ways that we can begin to build loose ties that can then change into, you know, close ties.
(23:40):
Yeah, it's really beautiful.
Thank you for explaining that.
When I, I heard these terms, a few things I kind of aligned them with and I, I've done work around diversity, inclusion, and belonging.
Um, and so it's very much the, the belonging piece and I was like, yes.
(24:03):
And it even goes beyond that because I also thought about, uh, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the deficiency needs.
Um, so there's the physical piece, there's the safety piece.
Love and belonging and then esteem needs and the acknowledgement.
(24:23):
And a wonder I was, I put those together and it's almost this very simple way to express or help support meeting the love and belonging and um, the steam needs.
And when we don't have those, our nervous system detects those as danger, whether it's, you know, social danger or physical danger.
(24:51):
Our brains don't, don't know the difference.
It just feels like fear and danger.
And I think that is so tied to this idea of, of loneliness and how people are experiencing loneliness as fear and it deteriorates the body.
And so for me, when I heard you talking about acknowledge.
(25:14):
Wonder.
It's actively seeing someone, recognizing them, pulling them into this place of belonging, which completely addresses this fundamental human need around love and belonging and, and esteem.
And those are the deficiency needs, meaning, um, we're motivated by the lack of it.
(25:38):
Mm-hmm.
And it also, those are the things when we don't have our bodies essentially begin to deteriorate.
And, um, the disease now.
So diseases associated with loneliness kind of shows how that, how that manifests.
So it just like really clicked to me in this, bringing the, the science, whether some, you know, everyone questions whether Maslow's hierarchy of needs is scientific.
(26:07):
And I think some of it really is and express to that.
And there are detractors, but it.
It's a simple, how do you take this science and then just have a very simple way to express it in our world.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think more and more, you know, recent research as loneliness and belonging becomes more of a, uh, comes to the forefront of our culture, we're seeing the science back up what Maslow is saying, that we need these things, we need these bonds socially to be able to be mentally and physically well.
(26:45):
They're equating that if you have less than five close bonds, then you're, you know, that's the same as smoking a pack of cigarettes a day in terms of longevity of life.
So the level of cortisol that is f rocking your system is just deteriorating your organs, your capacity to think clearly, to strategize, um.
(27:08):
I think, uh, the, the next layer that as I was doing the research and preparing for the talk that I began to tune into, you know, I, I'm preparing for this as the United States is going through an election.
Um, and I started to think a lot about, you know, longing out and got two camps seeking belonging and the amount of kind of tribal bonding that we're seeing in the states.
(27:37):
You know, left, right, blue, red, um, citizen immigrant and there's a place for it.
Like we, I think that's a first layer of belonging.
You find people that look like you, that think like you 'cause it's safe, and you can be with them and have all your confirmation bias and we gotta get beyond that.
(28:01):
Um, so what I've been playing with recently is thinking, okay.
Bonding is the first layer of this belonging cake that we need.
There's also this layer of bridging.
So how can I feel safe and regulated enough in my being to then reach across the, the street and get curious about your experience? You've lived a completely different life than me.
(28:29):
I need to be coming from a place where I'm not trying to prove or one up you that I can actually learn from.
You.
Learn about you.
Yeah.
I mean, I, it's interesting you talked about it as a cake.
Um, 'cause it is multilayered.
I'm curious a little bit more about the express piece and maybe this is my mind overthinking.
(28:53):
Um, because I think it's this, like for me it's like, oh, what does express mean to me? And I'm having a hard time jumping to what.
That might look like.
So this is, uh, me jumping off of Dr.
Howard Gardner's multiple intelligence theory.
(29:14):
He says, you know, there's, I think he has eight different intelligences, um, and other people have gone on, taken his research and said, oh, there's far more, or should, there's only four.
Um, but it's around how brilliance gets expressed.
So some people are super facile with oration.
They can speak.
(29:34):
I, the image that always comes to mind is Obama man was an amazing speaker.
And then we've got folks who are brilliant with numbers and logical sequences just comes innately to them.
Einstein is the, the archetype.
He, he might not have been able to express himself, might not have been that charismatic, but his logic was a, you know, just sound.
(29:59):
Um, and then there's people who.
Have neither of those skills, and they're still brilliant.
You've got peop athletes who are totally in their body, the control that they have of their being.
Um, you watch these dancers just do the most amazing grand and minute movements, so they've got a kinesthetic brilliance to them.
(30:23):
And then there's folks like, um, Darwin or Jane Goodall who we might describe as Naturalistically.
Brilliant.
They see the patterns in the world, and that's how they understand the world.
They just, they have some innate capacity to go there.
I other are, I think, visual and spatial.
(30:47):
So we can think of artists, architects, um, music, so folks who auditorily, you know, I think about the people who can hear a song.
Then jump on the piano and play it.
I've got a dear friend, Teo, who can play almost any instrument that so hands him whether he's played it before or not.
(31:10):
Yeah.
How does that then facilitate connection and belonging? I believe it facilitates it because we're inviting people to share in the domain that they have the most confidence and comfort in sharing and expressing themselves.
(31:36):
So in so many, um, kind of Western normalized settings, it's the people who have their hand up the quickest and who are the best speakers who we're gonna follow.
It doesn't matter the quality of their idea, their ability to influence by just the spoken word.
(31:57):
Wins every time.
And there's, we're missing out on so many other forms of brilliance by only, you know, honoring and celebrating the spoken word, I think about the symbols.
Yeah.
And like how, how beautifully and brilliantly artists use metaphor, um, and similarly and how thinking in those terms often helps us see beyond the horizon that we're looking at.
(32:28):
And I think especially in this moment in time, that's what we need to be.
Those are the conversations that we need to be in because the horizon keeps changing.
Um, so we need to be able to think, you know, beyond it, because we've got the tools where we can actually design and build for the most outlandish things.
(32:48):
But if we keep, you know, just focusing on what we can see and hear, we're, we're grossly limited.
To meet the adaptive challenges that we face.
There's a word you specifically said, and it was sharing, like, sharing that.
And that I feel like is, is that's the nugget.
(33:11):
Because how someone shares what they have in terms of their intelligence, in terms of their, that kind of innate thing that you're talking about.
That's where now I'm connecting.
That's where the express piece, I feel like for me that's, that's where it's, I now I get that connection.
(33:32):
It is in the act of sharing what's in you and then this, the others.
'cause it's not necessarily a sequence, right.
The the knowledge piece.
And the wonder piece then is almost this opening to what is being shared.
Mm-hmm.
And it is this really like virtuous cycle.
(33:54):
Am I getting that right? I love that.
You, you see it as a cycle.
I, I understand it to be as such, and I think all these elements are standalone as well.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, and so that's why I think it's a really good kind of mnemonic for thinking about how can we feel belonging? How can I acknowledge myself? How can I get curious about myself? How can I express myself as well as the external manifestation? And how can I acknowledge those around me? How can I get curious about them? Mm-hmm.
(34:26):
How can I invite them to share? I love share.
That's so it's simple to share their brilliance.
Their genius with me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And how do you get comfortable sharing yours? Because it may not look like what's expected.
So that's, yeah.
I love that it's standalone, it's internal, it's external.
(34:49):
It can be as this virtuous cycle.
Is the sequence.
It's not a sequence.
Um, and that's, you know, that's, that's the way my mind thinks often is like, oh, is this the sequence? Is this how it goes? And it's such a good reminder that we need to break some of those patterns of assuming a sequence, assuming, assuming a cycle, assuming that things have to go together, versus yes, this can be standalone.
(35:16):
Yes, this can be internal, external.
And so thank you.
You're welcome.
Awesome for expanding, expanding my brain.
Um, and I love the simplicity of it and I'm so happy that, um, so many people have been exposed to it and I trust that more and more people will as well.
(35:39):
But the comments I've received, I can't tell you how content I've become.
Uh, just hearing people say, you know, I'm, I'm a social worker and I've been using this with my clients and I'm, I'm getting into rapport quicker with them.
I just think of, you know, some of the, the teachers that have made comments akin to that, it's like the amount of lives that are going to be touched by this simple mm-hmm.
(36:03):
These simple acts.
Um, and that I had some small part in it.
It is like, oh yeah, it's enough.
Yeah.
You know, you see the ripple and those ripples never end.
So ripples of belonging.
Yes, please.
I love it.
I love it.
(36:23):
If there's enough of us throwing those pebbles in, then the ripples of belonging will just continue.
Then there'll be waves.
So, yeah.
Thank you.
That was fun.
That, and it was very helpful for me to just look at a new framework.
I love frameworks, but also now that we've talked about it, I'm seeing it even, um, it differently, more expansive, really than I had originally saw when I, when I listened to it last.
(36:51):
My first draft of the speech was about 22 minutes, and I was like, oh, I nailed it.
And they're like, now we need it to be eight, eight minutes.
So I pushed 'em to nine, but there's, there's only so much you can condense them to that little space.
Wow.
Yeah.
I can't, I can't imagine.
So could you, and the more we got distilled, the more ideas and clarity I got.
(37:13):
So I was like this, you know, expand contract.
Contract, expand, contract contract.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's such a good practice.
Thank you.
Thank you for indulging me and, and answering questions, uh, about your lovely TED talk and the a WE, the offer framework.
Um, I'd love to open it to what you wanna talk about.
(37:34):
So I love this idea of sage space that you're holding.
And the other day, in a deep meditative state, this, these words came to me, um, heart space.
And this came after a series of comments about, you know, I can feel your heart.
(37:57):
Uh, you've got such a big heart comments like that, that I've received a handful recently, but this is tracked for most of my life.
So I'm starting to see that that is the, you know, if we're talking business terms, that is the value that I bring my clients.
I help create hard space in these settings.
So I am in this challenge of wanting to be more, share more about what I care about in the work that I'm doing.
(38:25):
I, you know, consultants, I am responding to the needs of another, and I'd like to be more explicit about the, the medicine, the magic, the impact that I'm actually bringing.
And I don't quite know how to talk about heart in the, the corporate.
(38:47):
Setting.
Um, I've, you know, belonging I think was one attempt Yeah.
At it.
Um, but I'd like to be more explicit and more aligned around the work that I wanna do to attract the, the right people.
I'm afraid if I lead with heart-centered leadership or heart space, that that's acts as more of a repellent because it feels soft.
(39:15):
It feels wishy-washy.
It doesn't meet, you know, our bottom line.
Yeah.
I'm curious, uh, because you first said as a consultant, you respond to what a client needs, what they want, what they're asking for.
Can you gimme an example of what one of those things are when you, let's say your most recent engagement.
(39:42):
What was the problem they were coming to you with? And what were, what were they, they hoping, what were they hoping the outcome would be with the work they did with you? So, the most recent client came to me needing support, developing a strategic plan.
(40:02):
The board and the staff are fairly far away from one another in terms of their visions and their hopes for what this entity is.
And, um, it's very top down and there's a lot of talk about, you know, equity and inclusion, belonging being core pillars of the work.
(40:29):
Mm-hmm.
And they wanted you to bring those two groups closer together.
They wanted you to, um, have, get alignment.
What was, what was the outcome you were all trying to achieve? Boost engagement and morale is one outcome.
(40:52):
Um, increase alignment and clarity amongst these two stakeholders and then develop a short term plan that gets the group from where we currently are to where the closer to the achieving the organization's mission.
(41:13):
Okay.
So, so ideally if I, uh, can kind of paraphrase or bring together what you said.
Ideally, if a client comes with you to you with this problem and they wanna achieve improved engagement, morale, alignment, alignment, clarity, and an actionable plan, you would, as you were talking about heart HeartSpace, wanna take this conversation to say, to say.
(41:44):
This is about your heart.
This is about tell, tell me what, like, because any problem can be solved in a variety of ways.
And if you are saying you want this to be more heart led, or like, this is a magic you're bringing, how would you press that? I think even talking around the, like the methodology or the, what the experience is going to be like through the process that, you know, I I'll design, facilitate us through, um, being far more explicit around where this is coming from, the types of conversations we'll be having.
(42:27):
This isn't spreadsheets and blueprints.
This is really tending to the relational field.
And do you think that approach can still achieve the outcomes? Oh, ab, absolutely.
(42:48):
Okay.
Okay.
I think my, my challenge is I have been, I don't wanna say subversive, but I've, I, this is the work I've been doing, but I haven't been explicit about it.
And I, and I have this, this feeling that if I'm more explicit about it in my, in my marketing of it, in my selling of it, that I'll be attracting clients that are even more aligned, that I can do even deeper, better work with.
(43:24):
Mm-hmm.
Because I'm not Yeah.
Trying to business jargony what I do.
I can just do it.
Yeah.
I mean, you've already have the answer right there.
What was coming to me is this idea of, um, courage.
Because it's courage is so aligned with the heart, and that feels one super necessary and really hard to come to a place to when you are in your day-to-day work.
(44:00):
Like how can you act from a place of courage, which means acting from a place of heart.
And you have every, almost every metaphor around heart can be, um, associated with or courage associated with a lion.
(44:22):
And you still, you know, you have the wizard, the Wizard of Oz, like every, like, it, it feels like a almost powerful discussion.
It's like.
What, what do you, as a leader, what do you equate to as in as courage? Like what comes into your mind immediately and it's heart and we're so often stuck in, as you were talking about when we first started, that, um, appease and keep the peace zone.
(44:57):
I think we're always in, often in that zone at work where it's like, okay, I don't wanna push the boundaries too much.
And that takes us to a place of separating ourselves from our heart because it might take too much.
'cause it takes too much courage.
And when you're in a state of fear, you're not gonna be in a, a state of courage.
(45:18):
Yeah.
You, you, you nailed it there with when you said courage.
I got goosebumps and a bit choked up.
'cause I think that's, that's the crux of it.
Yeah.
Being a bit more, and I feel.
Leading with courage then naturally leads to a conversation about heart and the practices and tools that you bring that allow people to be in their heart so that they can be in a place or lead with courage.
(45:55):
And you can even reference like every military, almost every military slogan is about courage, and it almost naturally means that it's about heart.
I You're good? Oh, yeah.
Oh, thank you.
I love that.
(46:16):
You can say that again.
Um, anyway, I, I, and you know what, for me too, I've been in so many situations where I didn't have the courage to do what was in my heart.
Um.
And either from a, from a work perspective, personal perspective, relational, even with, um, with trusting myself.
(46:42):
So there's another thing coming up around trust as well.
If you think about maybe these, uh, potential pillars, courage, trust, there's probably something else with maybe heart being like the found foundational piece to it.
There, there's something there.
I I am not able to kind of articulate it right now, but I feel like there's, there are these pillars that then allow, or that are facilitated by being in a place of heart and the tools you have, you already know the tools that you use, but maybe they're framed differently because it's hard to talk about heart and love, you know, in a corporate situation.
(47:23):
But I do think that there's, there's something, something there, and.
Yeah, there's studies and research is, is very strong around, um, the importance of trust in leadership.
Oh yeah.
The importance of courage when it comes to leadership.
And then there's this other piece, and I, I'm reluctant to use this word, but it's the only one that feels right currently is authenticity.
(47:50):
And authenticity around leadership is also has been shown to be like such an important part of effective leadership.
And to get all that is connecting to your heart.
A hundred percent.
A hundred percent.
The, the, the word authenticity is I think, really important here.
(48:13):
It gets, I think, overused, I get the kinda aversion to, to drop on the, a bomb leaders carry weather, you know, and they, and that.
Can be physically like monitored by, you know, the heart resonance.
So when the person with the most power in the system shows up and their heart is activated or depressive or frustrated and angry, even if the, the words and there's not alignment that's, you know, expressed it is felt throughout the system.
(48:46):
Um, yeah.
Yeah.
Now this is coming full circle for me.
Um, well, the, the term you, you, you just talked about in terms of whether is neuroception, um, so neuroception, 'cause we are as, as human beings, we naturally, the first we sense through our nervous system whether an environment is safe, safe to trust, safe to love, safe to connect.
(49:16):
And I am going back to when you talked about, um, polishing.
Your heart.
I think there's something here about this idea of the work you do, the work you bring to clients.
It's almost this idea of, of polishing the heart so that as a leader, they can shine, their heart can shine in a way that, um, engages, you know, trust it, it, it will improve productivity and performance, creativity, innovation, all of that.
(49:58):
It's all connected.
And I don't know, there feels like something around this idea of polishing and it's again, a word I'd never heard associated with heart before, which is cool, but there's some work.
Polishing takes work.
And so if you're gonna, if you're gonna shine, there's, what do you do to polish your heart? Maybe your mind, your being, whatever it is, so that you can shine, feels like there might be something there.
(50:31):
Yeah, absolutely.
I've been banding around facilitative leadership, servant leadership, um, as a way of trying to get to the heart of what I'm really talking about is like being in service of others, supporting others, giving more than, you know, getting, not being out front, you know, with the sphere, but being behind helping people express themselves more fully.
(50:59):
Um, but I think there's, at the root of it, you, you just queued right in on it.
This is about courage, this is about trust, and both these things are found within us in our heart.
Yeah.
Yeah.
If somebody, um, said, oh, I'm doing a workshop on courageous leadership.
(51:21):
There would be a million people signing up, especially around courageous leadership in the context of where we are today.
And I think it's so easy to talk about leadership that is anything but but courageous.
And the fact that you have science research back tools and that you've already done it, I think feels super, um, aligned to you to who you are and aligned to what's needed right now.
(52:03):
I I, I'm kind of shocked at how, how quickly you, you just got us to where I've been scratching out and confused about for some time.
Courage core.
It's right there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
French for fire.
Yeah, that's right.
You, that's it.
Um, to be able to lead with that and feel like, yeah, that's right.
And this is about meeting the moment.
(52:24):
Yes.
Which take leadership, which takes real courage, not the the synthetic courage that we're seeing left and right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And the etymology.
I love that you brought that in.
Yeah.
I mean, courage is heart.
Courage is heart.
It's right there in the word.
Yay.
Amazing.
Problem solved that take you high.
(52:45):
Six minutes.
Oh.
Oh, that was really fun.
That was really fun.
Thank you on that for that journey.
And what's interesting, I don't think we would've gotten there if in the beginning you hadn't talked about where you are right now with that, with the song and talking about like where your heart is and polishing your heart and it all.
(53:10):
Came together, it all really came together, which just means it's, it's in you already.
It's already in you.
So you're just ready to go.
I, I wanna shine it out there.
I wanna shine it brighter.
Wow.
Let's pause.
I think that's, let's follow.
That was the big challenge behind the TED Talk for me.
Um, when, when we had initially met a year ago, this was not on the radar.
(53:33):
Mm.
Uh, but as that summer progressed, the question that I was living in is like, how can I be more true to myself for myself, given so much of my work is in response to others.
Yeah.
And my friend system, family system, I'm very much the, I'm here for you.
I got your back.
Yeah.
Um, and so the, the TED Talk was, I think the largest expression of me sharing what I really deeply care about, what I wanna be talking about, the world I wanna be living in, the work that I want to be in support of, um.
(54:07):
Yeah.
And so to be able to begin naming it more clearly in a way that is attractive instead of confusing, I think I've been confusing.
Leading with courage is Yes, is clear.
Um, yes.
And I will also add, I think the next piece, if I can, um, provide one more piece of wisdom is what are the pillars of this that are unique to you? I know you, you already are doing things that look and feel very unique there are a million consultants that would do a strategy session or, you know, bringing engagement and morale and they would do it completely differently than you.
(54:56):
So how do you get to a point where you have these very clear pillars? Around courageous leadership.
So it is easy to understand.
So it's like, oh, I'm not at all confused about the experience I'm gonna have as a leader.
I know what I'm gonna experience.
(55:18):
So that would be, I think, your next piece of work.
How do you categorize the things that you're already doing so that they look like these clear pillars that support courageous leadership? Thank you for the homework.
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm on this, this feels so alive for me.
This feels so, oh, good.
Good.
(55:38):
So alive.
Good.
Good.
Okay.
I am, I, this makes me so happy.
I'm just, I'm alive right now too, so I feel like that might be a good place for us to close this, this podcast.
Thank you so much for, for having me on for your interest and my story and my perspective.
(55:58):
That was super fun.
Thank you so much
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