April 16, 2025 • 50 mins
Curly Steve and Jake discuss the impact of eco-anxiety on individuals' actions and empowerment. Jake explains that eco anxiety is a range of emotions, including numbness, motivation, and fear, in response to the climate crisis. He emphasises the importance of community, reflective activities, and visualisation in overcoming eco-anxiety. Jake highlights the significant impact of dietary changes, particularly shifting to plant-based diets, which reduce land and water usage by 75%. He also discusses the role of protests and financial actions, such as switching to sustainable banks, in driving systemic change. Jake shares his personal experiences with protests and the importance of balancing personal contradictions while advocating for sustainability.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
we are faced with a whole load of craziness in the world right now it's understandable that some are struggling
to get to grips with it today we're here with Jake and we're going to ask can our
emotions be our superpower hi I'm Curly Steve and we are searching for a greener
room [Music]
(00:27):
so Jake hey how you doing morning Curly Steve and nice to see you i'm good
thanks i've been thinking the whole way here whether I need a hair related name or not and I was trying to think I've
washed my hair today and I was like I was like do I go you know clean hair Jake or just floppy Jake i don't know
yeah a while ago I had all my hair shaved off and everyone was like what do we call you how long ago how much
(00:52):
growing is this about about this long ago
so Jake let's get down to it um tell me about what you do why are you here today
well I'm here today uh I guess I'm here today i'm very passionate about helping
people feel empowered i think we face a massive challenge of the day not really
(01:14):
in awareness of um things that are going on in the world and um actions we can
take uh to make a difference but actually the step further for me is um you know the belief that we can make
that difference if we take them so having that sense of agency um so that's
why I'm I think I'm here today to try and help people discover that agency okay so let's just rewind with that for
(01:38):
a minute because um we're sort of thinking about um the the negative side
of things I guess is is is the word eco anxiety and eco anxiety to me um it's it
sort of spells inaction and it spells um people not really knowing what they
should do uh disempowerment um you know where what is eco anxiety
(02:04):
yeah well that's a really good place to start so um you know how does how does
the climate crisis and biodiversity loss make you feel that's that's the first
question to untap that question so how how do they make you feel that's a good question isn't it and and actually it
makes me feel numb um because I uh I don't like to do anger
(02:29):
i think if I could do anger then I'd be angry yeah but I I feel numb because I
feel I quite often feel I don't know what to do what to do to to make it
better yeah yeah so numbness yeah i completely resonate with what what you
say others may say things like um you know I feel very personally driven i
(02:50):
feel very like motivated i also feel you know quite sad and quite scared that
whole plethora of feelings is what eco anxiety is it isn't just anxiety it's the the range of feelings that we have
in response to the real big challenges that are going on and it's worth saying that um that those are entirely natural
feelings and there's not a one-sizefits-all it shows that you have a deep uh empathy and level of
(03:16):
connection to what's going on around you so eco anxiety is that it's the it's the smoothie of emotions that we feel from
numbness to um motivation and sadness and everything in between and out of all of those um those feelings
uh which ones you know we're we're talking here about um uh turning your um
(03:38):
emotions into superpowers um but which ones are those are them are the most
numbing which ones are what what what's um what am I trying to say here what
what what are people doing with eco anxiety is it is it making them do more to make the world
(03:59):
better or is it stopping them doing yeah it's a good question i think people are
from my from what I understand and my experience living through it and my training learning about it is people are
often often find themselves in two different states so you're either in a state of actually what we term ecophobia
which is that numbness that stuckness you feel stuck you feel unable to take
(04:21):
action for whatever reason you feel um disempowered um so you feel like you're in that hole and can't really climb out
some people feel like that and then it's almost like a a sliding scale and pivoting into what we term eco anxieties
where you recognize that those emotions often catalyze your actions um so a good
place to start is often thinking about your climate catalyst so it might be a moment in your life where you took
(04:46):
action for for climate for biodiversity for social action for anything in the
relation to this space there'll be a grounding emotion you felt that powered
you through to take action um so I I try and think of ones that that I have we we
all have different stories but there'll be times um there'll be a way you feel that um pushed you through to that
(05:09):
action so that's the second um way that these emotions can impact you is actually in a very positive way if you
really connect to yourself and reflect on times of previous action you can use
them to help define your action going forward interesting so so ecoaction has
has a polar polar outcome i think so
(05:31):
spectrum yeah and and it's natural to have go through waves like we think of it I think it's easy for us to think
very bipolar bipolary is that a word in two ways as human beings like um like an
all or nothing future scenario you know that's a great example when actually it's multifaceted and complicated but
emotionally as well and action it can um feel like you have to be motivated or
(05:56):
you're not and actually in reality across our lives months weeks days it's
natural for us to flux in and out of those waves it's natural to feel very dismotivated sometimes or very upright
sometimes um you know from yeah from different things that happen you do dayto-day so it's it's okay also to
accept that you might need a timeout for like an evening a week or whatever and
(06:21):
yeah I've been there been there in you know parts of my life there's been times where I felt really motivated and connected to a cause and I've been in
touch with the emotions that I feel in that moment and I feel very uh motivated and full of agency and there's times
where I really feel uh just um really not wanting to talk to anyone just binge
watching TV at home and like that acceptance of that f that's fine is also really important yeah I think um I think
(06:47):
that's a really important thing for humans to recognize is that sometimes locking yourself up in a dark room is
actually okay yeah and actually sometimes the you know taking action is okay and sometimes somewhere in between
the two is okay and sometimes it's okay is a really good expression to to just
say to yourself isn't it definitely and like that that concept of like that that imperfection that imperfect activist is
(07:12):
a great phrase that I love that's been coined in some of the organizations that I volunteer and give time to um yeah we
there's there's no perfect activist you know um imperfection is fine we're only
human so I'm glad you brought that up because perfectionism um
is is a a really difficult trait for people to uh take control of isn't it and um and actually imperfection is is
(07:38):
is a good place to recognize and to perform in um and so uh analysis
paralysis you know looking too far into what you can do and end up doing nothing
because of it um you know what your thoughts on that looking too much yeah
it's Yeah so almost like diving too much into an issue that you just become ever more overwhelmed right is that is that
(08:04):
kind of what you mean yeah well sort of trying to do everything perfectly and actually perfect is almost um you
know too far at the end yeah to reach I really resonate with that um you know
someone who just I feel you know deeply connected that this is the biggest issue of our time not only um the crisis we
face but the inaction uh people feel um that the yeah the lack of agency so yeah
(08:28):
I definitely definitely resonate with that there's moments where I'm like "Oh gosh like it feels so insignificant um
unless I do all all these different things." Um so yeah I definitely definitely resonate with that and to do
some things a little bit is sometimes better than to do nothing yeah I've had to learn that in um in both work and and
(08:50):
you know personal life it's um come to terms with it's better to do a few things really well I think than spread
yourself too thin and that's kind of some of the approach that we might talk about later with um Force of Nature the
charity that I've been um that I've been trained with that acts in this area and
helps people come use those emotions for good um yeah choosing those one or two things that you're really passionate
(09:15):
about that you have that real um real uncomfortable stomach with taking action in those two making that your like flag
that you fly is um perhaps more effective than spreading yourself all
too thin and how is um how's community involved in all of this yeah I mean
community is massive it's um from from research that's been found um particularly amongst young people so 35
(09:39):
and under but I think it's relevant to everyone is um the two things that come that it comes down to when it comes to
reasons for disempowerment and working through that is senses of community and defining what action looks like for you
so defining action that that might be reflective activities that might be exploring stuff and saying no to
(10:00):
something saying yes some things but community is really important that that um connection to like-minded people who
can you know spur you on make you feel like you're you're part of something bigger than yourself is so important so
having those people in your network and groups to be a part of is really really important and so how how do people find
those communities yeah they well we live in such a fascinating time don't we because that the world is full of
(10:24):
challenges but also full of so many wonderful organizations that are working
i think something I always struggle with is um I never want to reinvent the wheel i feel like there's there's there's
probably something someone a group somewhere that's working in a space in a theme you know a key thing relating to
sustainability um so finding them is kind of in a way easier than ever um you
(10:48):
know we have technology and online communities as well as inerson ones um
so yeah getting out talking to people discovering your local area in particular you know we talk about about
a lot about um uh acting locally thinking globally um that's really important I think being part of
communities on different scales is really important so you might have uh local organizations um in your local
(11:10):
area that you can find out about through just notice boards and asking people who've lived in town for ages um and you
could have global communities or national ones certainly with big organizations like you know things like
Save the Children or Fair Trade or Extinction Rebellion they they have massive reach so all it takes is a bit a
(11:31):
bit of research and a bit of connecting to people and social media has made that so much easier nowadays hasn't it
absolutely and there's there's so many great influencers out there as well you know you can search for for videos and
themes but also you know there's a few really great positive influencers I follow who um not only share information
but they share like communities as well and um I guess a lot of people are working in that space like that your
(11:55):
your form of action might be what action looks like to you might be increasing the reach of an organization and you're
playing your part then in something it might not have an inferred direct
reduction in carbon emissions or energy but you're actually reaching more people which um is what it's all about really
yeah absolutely i suppose one person doing one thing or 100 people doing 100 things is you know it's makes a massive
(12:21):
difference doesn't it yeah for sure absolutely so what um so let's rewind to
um to eco anxiety yeah if someone feeling is feeling you know in front of
the headlights and stuck what what sort of things can they do to pull themselves
out of it cool well I will give a shout out to Force of Nature yeah Force of Nature tell us a little bit about that
(12:45):
so Force of Nature is a CIC working at the interface between mental health and
climate change they've been leading in this space for several years um they're quite a young uh charity so they're only
about five six years old but they were set up in response to their founder and their team recognizing this dissonance
between um uh they found 70% of young people worldwide in a study of 500
(13:08):
people um said that they were their mental health was impacted by climate
change but only about 25% of them said they knew what to do about it they felt
I know they were stuck so they made this community and uh what they do to cut long story short is um they offer lots
of training programs they offer an online community to be part of um and they have loads of resources so
(13:30):
everything I'm talking about today I've only learned from you know re researching with them and um doing
training with them so yeah so big shout out to them um do go check them out anyone can join as well you don't have
to just be a young person but yeah to come back to your question about what what do people do um I think um finding
that community is really important and when we think about that second point about defining what action looks like to
(13:53):
you break breaking down those big overwhelming concepts and themes into
tangible steps and the ways you might go about doing that I think um are hooked
on maybe two or three things so the first thing is um tapping into your why your why you're we talked about a bit
earlier didn't we but your why you're doing thing doing something is almost more important than your what you're doing so I might uh for instance uh
(14:19):
interail across Europe i did it a couple years ago um that that's my what I did
but the why I did that is because I deeply believe we need to car flying and I feel very kind of proud to do that and
I want to see the scenery and stuff like that so connecting to your why something is really important to you um taps into
that emotional response and gets you in tune with your emotions a bit more which can help you in the future as well um so
(14:44):
that's your why and then I think the other couple are um reflective activities are really important we mentioned it earlier but thinking back
to times where you've taken action where you felt good about something where you've seen something through where
you've connected with community thinking back to um how you felt in that moment um and building from that is really
really important and reflection might also be that slight emotional response too so um reflecting on what works for
(15:08):
you what sort of coping mechanisms um you have what passions you have what problems you have that's all in that
reflective area and then finally it's visualization so the power of visualization is really important and
really really powerful so visualization is um thinking it's helping us
understand what a better future looks like because if we don't have a place to aim towards we'll never be able to truly
(15:34):
work back from it so it's very easy in today's world to think about all the bad things that could happen but it's a it's
a multifaceted issue and it's not an all or nothing scenario the future could look very different and um visualization
activities of you know what what could my local town look like in in 10 years time um 20 years time what does a future
(15:55):
look like where a problem I really care about has been solved um and what are the steps that we need to take to work
back from that point so finding that guiding compass is really really important i like that i like that and
that's that's sort of big picture stuff isn't it
how about the small picture where you're just feeling rotten what but is is eco
(16:21):
anxiety the same as normal anxiety is it is breathing help does does yoga help
does exercise does eating well does you know all the usual sort of things does does that help i think it varies
depending on the person so you know for me recently when I when I've been feeling quite overwhelmed and lack of
motivation I've felt quite sort of insular i kind of like just taking myself for a walk in the woods i love
(16:45):
trees i love nature every time every time of course yeah we chat a bit at the beginning so nature is really important
connecting to nature is so important you know we're we're nature- based creatures um so connecting to those places that
matter to you is really important but it will vary depending on the person but I think um yeah all the things you mentioned breathing meditative stuff um
(17:05):
is is really important when you're feeling overwhelmed um yeah but it will it will look different for each person
so that's kind of a personal journey really finding your coping mechanisms your happy places um it might be things
like journaling it might be sort of mapping out things it might be that you need to join some sort of support group to help tease out some of some of this
stuff so yeah it looks quite different i don't really have a one-sizefits- all answer for it and that's um so you you
(17:32):
said earlier about the uh the the it being sort of an under 35 year old thing
um is that is that right or I mean cuz I'm I'm in my 50s now unfortunately um
and I I guess I'm I have a a an amount
(17:52):
of eco anxiety um where where's where's the land lie with this is it people
being born into a world where they're worried or um cuz there's there's always
been worry there's always been things going on that aren't great um whether it be war whether it be politics whether it
(18:13):
be you know there's I can give you a whole list but is it any worse now than
it was two years ago five years ago 10 years it's a strange thing isn't it and um yeah sorry I didn't answer the question
first time but yeah you're right it's um it it can it definitely is when we come back to that definition of eco anxiety
it is just emotional responses so um you know there's more understanding these days that a bit of research has gone
(18:36):
into it that um general anxiety might be caused by the climate crisis
biodiversity loss a local area being demolished for housing or you know your favorite species being told the
population's gone down or something or people people starving and and dying and stuff so um it it is prevalent in people
who are over 35 as well and more and more we're thinking actually perhaps it's just enveloped in that more
(19:01):
generalized you know diagnosis of things like anxiety and depression so officially eco anxiety isn't a clinical
condition but the symptoms of eco anxiety like we talked about um are um
recognized symptoms of other clinical conditions and I think the other thing that's important to think about that has
only really come out in you know my life personally and through the training I've done and um conversation I've had is is
(19:27):
those emotional responses might vary depending on your um your upbringing and your um uh place you find yourself in
the world so the global north where we're speaking from at the moment uh versus the global south for instance
someone in the global south might be living on the front lines of climate change and biodiversity loss and seeing
you know freak weather events and affecting their day-to-day food supplies and housing conditions their generalized
(19:52):
fear and dread everyday lived experience is eco anxiety but we don't label it as
that whereas in the north we're kind of in that privileged position to actually have a bit of space to um um not only um
distance ourselves from the immediate impacts of some of this stuff but actually tap a bit more into our mental
health so for us we might define it as eco anxiety but in reality the feelings across those both parts of the
(20:16):
hemisphere um are the same they're grounded in the same um reasons for it
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(20:36):
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claim yours [Music] so if we go back to um where we were so
um what can we do about this yeah what can we do about it so I mean I'd like to I've had five years experience now in um
(21:02):
the sustainability like kind of sector I guess so I'd like to think I know some stuff and I'd like to think um I I know
I know the big impact actions we can take you know we talk a lot about that disempowerment piece i think it's really
important for people to understand um what actions have a real big impact
you know scaled impact so when I talk about what people can do I talk about those real big impact things i'm not
(21:27):
talking about the little stuff um I'm talking about yeah the things that um will hopefully bring you the most
empower sense of empowerment because they have big impact stuff so um the sort of things I like to talk about is
you know thinking about your day-to-day personal life um dietary change is really big one so we have three choices
a day to of what we put on our on our plates and um there's a lo there's so
(21:52):
much opportunity with with the food and drink that we put on our on our plates um there's so much that goes into food
production and there's so many things like um everything from packaging to um to locality seasonality all those
different facets are all really important but the core crux of it from from my opinion especially in a western
(22:12):
world country is um what the actual items are on our plate and that comes down to animal agriculture and
plant-based diets so shifting to plant-based diets has been shown in research um to require 75% less land um
have 75% less impact on things like water pollution and uh and carbon emissions so choosing plant-based
(22:34):
products to eat every day really has a transformative potential and that will
cascade down the industrial chains and all that sort of thing um so that's one big impact so um just staying on that a
second I I guess um going from being a um free meat a day um to being let's say
(22:55):
vegan um is a massive step but actually people can start making that step by
just changing one meal in a week yeah for sure um and then in a month's time
maybe change two meals and then in a bit more time maybe three and four and five and six and I like to be transparent
with people like I've been a vegan 5 years now and it was a journey you know it's it's um it's a journey that you go
(23:17):
on it took me you know three to six months to fully go that and there's different levels it will mean different
things to different people but there's you know the whole uh you know what we just said that the actual basis of
carbon impact and land impact biodiversity impact there's also an ethical you know reasons people might go
for it but yeah ultimately like you say it's um it's something it's easier than ever to do it in a western world country
(23:40):
like the UK um and there's so much resource out there you know the internet has so many recipes you can be an easy
vegan uh you know you can look into the um into the uh real uh like flagship you
know swap pops and sort of taking your favorite meal and veganifying it um or you can just Yeah I I think it's really
important i like to say to people you know when you go out for your next meal if you eat out somewhere uh why don't you choose the plant-based option you
(24:04):
know it's requiring no extra effort from you you're choosing um something that hopefully is quite a good quality meal because you're in a restaurant and you
know that's a starting place it interests me people who um flatly deny
that that's a an option um and and you know almost get angry that they're being
denied their their meat or whatever and it is a massive impact on the planet isn't it that um um you know it it uh
(24:33):
it's the one of the sole reasons that we've lost lots of our forests on the
planet or you know wooded areas um yeah and I like um yeah making it simple for
people that in my head how it works is you know we might take let's take the milk we drink so um cow's milk versus
something like oat milk um to put simply hope hopefully to help with your podcast but um you know oat milk requires a set
(24:57):
amount of land to um to grow those oats uh you might have a few inputs like you know feed and stuff like that if it's
non-organic you might have things like pesticides um and that's grown and that's mil and that's made into oat milk
um and then as soon as you have a an animal a creature in that you're having to grow those crops initially first and
have an equal perhaps more greater sum of land to rear the animals so you've
(25:21):
instantly got that doubling of like input so it makes double it's more than double more than double so yeah I don't
have the stats in my head but you know I think I think of global carbon emissions it's it's animal agriculture is responsible for something around 20 25%
um yeah that's what it's about that's massive yeah it's massive something like that have to double check
(25:42):
the stats but trust me it's around there trust me around there but yeah yeah so yeah it's
it's easier than ever and it's something we can do everyday life you know we we talk about um things we might do as a
one-off might might uh take the train rather than fly across somewhere in Europe um but this is every day this is
like really really really important really important really important what else what else i'm trying to remember my
(26:06):
list i don't want I was trying to like build up something um well we had protest we've been talking about protest
haven't we so we'll talk about protest so I think it's really important for us to also act at scales you know we've
just talked about our personal life but we need to be part of things that are bigger than ourselves as well so that
might be getting involved in your local community um joining an interest group having that action and impact that's
(26:32):
greater than the sum of your parts but also I think it's really important for us to recognize that I think a lot of the reason people feel disempowered is
because we don't think our leaders are looking after us we don't feel like they're doing our job there's a lot of people that feel really hopeless about
it and we don't feel like we can properly impact things and we look
across you know recent history and larger history recent history writing a
(26:56):
letter to your MP doesn't make a difference um gathering a group of signatures doesn't really make a
difference what makes a difference um is taking collective nonviolent direct
action and we look across um more recent history in you know the 20th century and the 19th century big transformative
changes in society to match the needs of that time were were caused by uh were
(27:22):
led by people in nonviolent action groups so people like Martin Luther King and the suffragettes movement um people
took disruptive action um and brought about change and that's what we need to
do now as well so protesting taking the message to our leaders in places like
London maybe even your local local council as well getting um getting people bodies on the line and there's
(27:46):
multiple ways you can be part of protest movements you know you it's easy to think of um I've done a whole range of
things but it's easy to think about the person who might sit in the road and block traffic um but also for each
person who does that um there's 10 people behind that doing you know social media organization running a running a
house and cooking for people doing outreach and events so the ways you can get involved in movements um like
(28:10):
Greenpeace like um Extin Rebellion and Just Oil even things like the Captain Paul Watson Foundation there's loads of
them but there's loads of ways you can get involved and I think it's really important for us to recognize we have
that we live in a country where we have that democratic freedom um more so than
others across the world and we have a we have a responsibility there to hold people account to that and where we
(28:35):
think things aren't working we should stand up for ourselves and do something about it so tell me um the protest that
you've done that's that's made the biggest amount of Yeah I mean really topical is the most recent one so um
well I'd say I'd call attention to two so October 2023 um I went and took
(28:56):
action with Just Up Oil in London so just up oil at the time were um campaigning for no new oil and gas um
extraction basically from the UK government um there's so much science behind it um go go to a welcome talk
you'll hear all about it i won't be able to split it out here but um uh yeah it's just incompatible with global warming
(29:17):
thresholds to continue drilling new oil and gas we need to stop that and we've
got about you know 5 to 8 years of um current supply of oil to transition us to that point so that was that's what
the demand was and we took action in October 2023 um in London and we decided to try and
overwhelm the police to send a message to the government that we're not okay with that so the way we were
(29:40):
overwhelming the police was um getting as many people arrested as possible so for the first time in October 2023 I sat
in a road and I got arrested for the first time and spent 13 hours in a jail cell um I was on the road for 3 minutes
i was arrested after 3 minutes it was very overwhelming and underwhelming at the same time and um yeah what you ask
what we've seen from the rep repercussions of that I I believe you know the new Labor government committed in the last manifesto to no new oil and
(30:06):
gas five years ago when just wasn't around that wouldn't have been a thing
what were you actually arrested for so um officially the uh so so this is also
the thing about protest is our rights as people in the UK are being eroded so
it's really the government and um big lobbyists from big industries that um
(30:28):
are doing are doing bad things have um put loads of new laws and enforcements in place so my I think my official
arrestable like thing was um this relatively new one which is really draconian really really bad and it's
about um uh I've forgotten the the term for it now but it's um causing
(30:48):
disruption to like national infrastructure and national infrastructure can mean anything from an airport all the way to a B- road okay so
we were taken up a B- road so the lowest spectrum of this you know um disruption
people stuck in a traffic jam for maybe half an hour an hour so presumably you were arrested and kept in a cell for 13
hours to to till the protest stopped and you could no longer be a part of it yeah
(31:13):
so again it's officially as far as I understand like police can't keep people for longer than 24 hours in a jail cell
and then you weren't charged uh yeah sitting here today I wasn't charged um it's all been Matt Fu and that that's
the that's the reason it worked the strategy and um you know I can't I can't um speak high more highly of how
historically informed these movements are and also how well organized they are you know you go um that they they knew
(31:40):
that uh overwhelming the police in the jail cells um filling those jail cells which are already like bursting already
um would demand a load of police resource put a lot of you know strain on the police and that sends a message to
government so uh yeah overwhelming with I think on that day 120 people got arrested um 120 people were taking up
jail cells people who are fighting for our future fighting on the science that sends a message like who should actually
(32:05):
be in those jail cells interesting yeah yeah that was that one and then the most recent one actually is
um sitting here today we're recording in March is um I went up and took part uh
in an action where we blocked a road for an hour outside the royal courts of justice so 16 I think as of today 15
peaceful protesters are in prison at the moment I think is one of the stats I bought 15 15 people are in prison for
(32:31):
this stuff so there's people in prison living out sentences of anything between
8 months and 5 years sitting in the road for taking action for climate for
peaceful protest nonviolent action so just sitting with that is like crazy
like uh you might expect that in a radical country like and there's so many other things going on in the in the
(32:54):
country that would require those place those places so the latest action I took
was all about that so it's a amazing organization called defend our juries and essentially it's calling out um
corruption in the court system so the fact this this has implications for whatever you deem important to you
because the rights of peaceful protest are being eroded in this country so a thousand people went up um on the day of
(33:19):
a court hearing to try and appeal these sentences that people have been given to shorten them so that was happening in
the court and we went up and blocked a road a thousand people sat in the road for um one hour um there were no arrests
i think there was one for someone who'd done some previous action but no arrests it was just pure people power in this
road in center of London on the strand um silently sitting in a road with placards calling out this injustice um
(33:46):
and we fast forward to now in March we just heard last Friday that um I think
five of those 16 sentences have been shortened as a result um 10 of them
haven't but five of them have which I think you know personally without that action wouldn't have happened good work
thanks very much thank you yeah wow wow yeah so I think um yeah I think you only
(34:12):
Yeah personally personally experiencing those things you know yeah the no new oil and gas that we find ourselves in
with this new Labor government and the fact that five of those 16 have have got reduced sentences is is progress and I
don't think it would have happened without a lot of people getting up and shouting about it or sitting quietly about it yeah yeah
okay so tell me um you talk you um talk about finances yeah yeah that was that
(34:39):
was the next one on your list yeah so um like I say coming back to that um these are what I feel big impact things for
you the listener um actions with the biggest impact so pro getting out protesting changing your diet um banking
and finance um I think about eight I think uh there's an amazing organization that's about to close actually it's sad
it's a charity called make my money matter um so I think they'll probably have a holding page or something so check out them um and also another one
(35:05):
called Switch It Green but they work in this space of um uh where our money is stored you know we use banks dayto-day
and we might have pensions if we're with an employer or we might have a private pension and
um there's big impacts we have indirectly in those so about 80% of
people don't know that your where you store your money um has an impact on the climate and and sustainability more
(35:30):
widely but the fact is um the banks and the pension organizations
uh both invest that money that's stored with them in a whole range of good and
bad things weapons weapons arms dealership war infrastructure um u
fossil fuels drugs and things like that so yeah you know thinking about sustainability you know the most
(35:54):
important thing for me is the fossil fuel industry so um yeah there's that
there's that link between those and um yeah completely right there's lots of different stuff people don't know that
and um they leverage uh the money of course that that they have in those investments that's one side of things
but perhaps the more empowering thing and the more crazy thing is that actually just the customer base um in
(36:16):
enables them to do that so you're worth about 1.5 million pounds to your bank
over your lifetime um there's been research done about that and that's because as a person in let's say
Barclays the the worst in the UK um that enables them the customer base
and the number enables them to leverage about 1.5 million pounds per person in loans and they choose to do that in a
(36:39):
whole range of ways and um by shifting your bank to a uh a more sustainably
minded one um you can shift that 1.5 million pound of leverage to uh
something with value something with purpose and if everyone you know closed their Barclays account tomorrow they
wouldn't have the money to invest in fossil fuel companies and these um these big banks are aren't transparent they're
(37:05):
they're not showing you what they're where they're spending your money no and that's the that's the big benefit with
some of the the sort of um more the greener ones where they're they're
massively transparent and you know where your money's going totally i think transparency is a big thing also just
sheer greenwash you know um so greenwash meaning um saying saying some things but
(37:28):
actually the majority of their interests and action is different so um I can't remember the exact stats but a lot of
you know the the big banks um only invest you know something crazy like 2 to 5% of their total um profit in green
stuff and they'll shout about that but the other 95% is spending really bad stuff so yeah transparency is really
(37:49):
important too so a big shout out to you know if you want my personal recommendations of what to switch to um Triados Bank I'm not sure if you're
aware of Yeah they're they're at the top aren't they they're super and they're transparent you can go through a list on their website of all their projects they
invest in um they only yeah they only invest in uh social environmentally
positive things and small scale stuff um here in the UK probably the best um high
(38:13):
street bank if you need a high street bank is nationwide they have really good policies on what they exclude their
investment from and some of the online banks are really good as well so things like st the mobile based so stling uh
I'd recommend Monzo I'd recommend but yeah Triodos is definitely the best one and when it comes to pensions you know
we haven't talked much about that that's just about having a conversation with your pension provider because a lot will offer a green pot that you can shift
(38:39):
your pension to um nowadays often with um not really a difference in risk and and you know money it will accumulate
over time but it's just a conversation they automatically put it in something that may do a combination of things uh
having conversation with them to go oh can I put it in this green bond instead that can make a lot of difference as
well so tell me what else what else um I
(39:02):
think a really important one and it's something everyone can do you know is is reconnecting to nature
because um yeah we live in such a beautiful world and we're part of such
intricate systems and cycles and reconnecting to we're meant to you know
we're meant to be in nature so reconnecting to that sense of place and
(39:27):
uh you know the places that are important to you the things uh the wildlife the the plants that are
important to you um I think it's really important that will help ground you in what you fight for but it will also
there's so many mental health benefits of being in nature i mean we talked about that with your surfing and being out in the waves i I love the stat about
how trees like release you know uh imu immunity kind of chemicals when you walk in the woods so I'm just in the woods
(39:51):
like Yeah it all in so um yeah seeing green as well like um I remember there's a
thing about like our eyes uh our eyes find it easier to look at the color
green um so we have like less you know tension and stress so when you're walking in like or if you're walking in
this room with all the green plants like you feel at ease you feel less stress you mean in the jungle in the jungle
(40:14):
yeah is it Is this called the jungle yeah this is the jungle this is the jungle yeah thank you jungle big shout out um so yeah all those sort of things
so re just um being being in natural spaces um has lots of mental health
benefits but also reconnecting to those places that matter to you will help ground you in action um yeah I love the
(40:35):
phrase uh nature is responsible nice nature is responsible for me nature is
responsible for my physical health because I do a lot of walking i do a lot of surfing i do a lot of climbing hills
um it's responsible for my mental health if ever I'm feeling like I need uh need
to sort my head out I'm straight out into the into the woods or uh into the ocean um it's responsible for what goes
(41:00):
on my plate it's responsible for what clothes I wear it's responsible for
pretty much everything that's good in my life nature is responsible that's lovely it's a really nice metaphor and um and I
I can't um I go back to my grandparents
as farmers um you know saying that we were custodians of the land and looking
(41:24):
after it for our future generations yeah and that's something that uh I think um
when when we think of how we can look after nature we need to think of how we can do it naturally without thinking
about it rather than taking action to look after nature we should just be
doing it intuitively totally um so that leads me nicely on to
(41:51):
contradiction nice and we talked earlier about imperfection and um how being
perfect isn't well it's not possible no it's it's impossible it is um and so
we've all got contradictions in our world um you know tell me a little bit
(42:11):
about yours and and how do you how do you get your head around Yeah having these contradictions yeah I'd say um
yeah I think uh a couple of contradictions in my life uh yeah it's really important to be transparent about
these things i think of late probably contradictions are I have a big gasg
guzzling diesel camper van right um and it's a crazy story with that because in October 2023 two two crazy things
(42:37):
happened to me i got arrested for the first time and I won a camper van you won so I won this camper van okay in a
competition in a raffle ticket amazing like me and my family have always dreamed of having a camper van for
camper van holidays and just um having a bit of van life and getting out exploring so it was amazing time and I
guess um yeah that's added a second car to my household it's added a pretty hefty car to my household it's a diesel
(43:01):
car um and uh you know I'm very passionate about using um about uh reducing single occupancy car use and
using public transport and active travel and all those things so to suddenly throw a van in there does seem kind of
contradictory and you know I drove here today in the van um and I find it really difficult sometimes
because because people are really quick to judge on that you know so um as soon
(43:27):
as I won it I I remember there were like two types of people like people just couldn't believe it um and you know
there were people that even said there's there's no one more deserving to win it Jake and that was lovely but there's
also those people that stick out in your mind like people I'd call close friends who would immediately go "Oh well Jake
that's not very sustainable what are you doing with that van are you going to scrap it surely that's the best thing to do with it why Why you Why are you
(43:50):
driving around in your diesel van?" And it's just Yeah so that's a contradiction but it spurs that other point
about about Yeah like being critical and how I think that's not helpful for
addressing things like eco anxiety like we need to be in a place of celebratory you know looking looking for the
positives so looking for the positives in that van is um I've been able to do slow travel up to Scotland um I've been
(44:16):
able to explore places and take things uh yes slower so stay overnight um
things like that it's helped other people so you know my my brother and my dad have been able to use it and and bring them happiness too have you been
able to um to be in nature more i'd say so yeah yeah yeah so yeah that the
ability to just um explore more of Cornwall and just get out and um and spend longer in a place you know you
(44:40):
don't have to dash there and dash back when you have a camper van so that's that's always really nice too so I'm
interested in the um duality between um uh being able to have a camper van
and um use more diesel yeah yeah and improve your mental health yeah and how
(45:03):
you can um balance that um it's like taking like for example taking holidays
um you know you come back from a holiday and you feel refreshed and brand new and
ready to uh take on the world and pro potentially be better just by having
that break so it's a it's a trade-off isn't it it
(45:28):
is and I think it's um I think um the means at which you
might travel or go on holiday is one factor but there's so many other things you can think about like when when you
said Steve about um this just needs to be natural to us i'd like to think I
kind of have that so um you know I won't lie coming here today in the van for example these this is what my life looks
(45:50):
like most days is I was sat there a week ago i spent a good half an hour 45 minutes going what would I have to do if
I got the train and the bus to Yuki to see Steve what would it mean for the van could I visit somewhere while I'm there
to make a day of it um would that justify taking that van um you know
other stuff so uh I had that you know moment of um going okay if I'm going to
(46:13):
do this how can I maybe do it in a way that's a bit more responsible uh how can I use this privilege in a way that maybe
gives back a little or benefits me a bit more things like that and I think um yeah the other thing I was going to say
is I've just boo booked my first international holiday for the first time in four years i haven't flown in four years and um yeah similar things to that
so I'm going on safari with my dad in in South Africa it's been a dream of ours for ages and um I guess uh yeah from from
(46:40):
the offset I've tried to design this trip to um be more sustainable it's hard so yes I'm going to fly there um getting
to Johannesburg by any other means seems quite difficult um but I'm going to uh
you know I'm planning this trip i've done a lot of research into types of lodges uh whether they're smallcale
community-led whether they give back to those communities can we do walking safaris instead of driven safaris um you
(47:05):
know how how can we reduce our impact of that holiday can we stay longer um to
you know um make make the most of that is there a give back thing we can do while we're there um and can we carbon
offset the flight because as a last resort you know we should be doing things like that so I think having that
critical thinking in the offset is is really important and uh yeah you're right it is really hard to Yeah steer
(47:29):
away from that perfectionism but I think having that process is important and yeah like like we chatted about about
the benefits of mental health i just I feel like I'm in a stage where arguably you need to see some of the world to
know what needs protecting and what what wonders are out there right yeah absolutely again it's taking you to
nature yeah yeah nature is responsible it is yeah so it's a nature holiday
(47:52):
isn't it and um Yeah yeah i think I wouldn't fly if it were any other way in terms of like you know I wouldn't just
go for a city break and fly there like I'd go for nature to see some of these amazing habitats like congregation of
the most beautiful wildlife in the world which which which I'm sure that will
infuse you further into your sustainability career yeah I'd hope so
(48:14):
and I think um for me it's uh it's it's come at a time where I think I feel like
in a period of flux and change in my life um where I might want to pursue some different things i'm sort of maybe
lacking a bit of my focus on what what really drives me and I'm looking back to nature for it because I'm a
zoologologist by trade i'm in this for the natural world um and for the last 5 years it's you know been predominantly
(48:36):
desk based stuff and people based stuff quite material um I'm kind of look I I
really am looking forward to go to just get a sense of perspective and get a sense of inspiration you know for what
might come next in the next five years of my life yeah absolutely contradiction big contradiction yeah but
yeah we got to be honest and open about those things and I think the process of how we come to those decisions and yeah
(49:00):
make it everyday conversation and um yeah could inspire people
so this brings me to a question which I' I'd like to ask
everybody is what can we do today what single thing can we do today love that
to make a better tomorrow what single thing can we do today well I think I've
(49:23):
given a lot of things you could do but I think the crux of it is for me come coming back to um sitting with those
feelings uh that could be in reaction to things you see in the news things you see in your local place stuff we've
talked about today just really make space for um okay how am I feeling in
response to that and and why am I feeling that way coming back to that why because if we do that you'll you'll help
(49:46):
unlock those real core drivers and that will help you dictate what action you
take dictate um what what change you make in the world and it's really important for us to ground ourselves I
think in that so um that could be by yourself could be quite reflective um could be with the help of others but I
think yeah making space and normalizing the need to yeah detox um
(50:11):
and get in touch with yourself is what I'd recommend people do love it jake
thank you very much for coming on today you're welcome and that has brought me slightly closer to uh searching for my
greener room hey nice that's good i'm glad thank you so much and uh once again thank you very much take it easy you
have a lovely day thank you that's it for this episode of Searching for a Greener Room we'd love to hear your
(50:35):
thoughts let us know what you think who you'd like to hear from any topics you
want us to cover drop us a comment don't forget to like and subscribe
we are faced with a whole load of craziness in the world right now it's understandable that some are struggling
to get to grips with it today we're here with Jake and we're going to ask can our
emotions be our superpower hi I'm Curly Steve and we are searching for a greener
room [Music]
(00:27):
so Jake hey how you doing morning Curly Steve and nice to see you i'm good
thanks i've been thinking the whole way here whether I need a hair related name or not and I was trying to think I've
washed my hair today and I was like I was like do I go you know clean hair Jake or just floppy Jake i don't know
yeah a while ago I had all my hair shaved off and everyone was like what do we call you how long ago how much
(00:52):
growing is this about about this long ago
so Jake let's get down to it um tell me about what you do why are you here today
well I'm here today uh I guess I'm here today i'm very passionate about helping
people feel empowered i think we face a massive challenge of the day not really
(01:14):
in awareness of um things that are going on in the world and um actions we can
take uh to make a difference but actually the step further for me is um you know the belief that we can make
that difference if we take them so having that sense of agency um so that's
why I'm I think I'm here today to try and help people discover that agency okay so let's just rewind with that for
(01:38):
a minute because um we're sort of thinking about um the the negative side
of things I guess is is is the word eco anxiety and eco anxiety to me um it's it
sort of spells inaction and it spells um people not really knowing what they
should do uh disempowerment um you know where what is eco anxiety
(02:04):
yeah well that's a really good place to start so um you know how does how does
the climate crisis and biodiversity loss make you feel that's that's the first
question to untap that question so how how do they make you feel that's a good question isn't it and and actually it
makes me feel numb um because I uh I don't like to do anger
(02:29):
i think if I could do anger then I'd be angry yeah but I I feel numb because I
feel I quite often feel I don't know what to do what to do to to make it
better yeah yeah so numbness yeah i completely resonate with what what you
say others may say things like um you know I feel very personally driven i
(02:50):
feel very like motivated i also feel you know quite sad and quite scared that
whole plethora of feelings is what eco anxiety is it isn't just anxiety it's the the range of feelings that we have
in response to the real big challenges that are going on and it's worth saying that um that those are entirely natural
feelings and there's not a one-sizefits-all it shows that you have a deep uh empathy and level of
(03:16):
connection to what's going on around you so eco anxiety is that it's the it's the smoothie of emotions that we feel from
numbness to um motivation and sadness and everything in between and out of all of those um those feelings
uh which ones you know we're we're talking here about um uh turning your um
(03:38):
emotions into superpowers um but which ones are those are them are the most
numbing which ones are what what what's um what am I trying to say here what
what what are people doing with eco anxiety is it is it making them do more to make the world
(03:59):
better or is it stopping them doing yeah it's a good question i think people are
from my from what I understand and my experience living through it and my training learning about it is people are
often often find themselves in two different states so you're either in a state of actually what we term ecophobia
which is that numbness that stuckness you feel stuck you feel unable to take
(04:21):
action for whatever reason you feel um disempowered um so you feel like you're in that hole and can't really climb out
some people feel like that and then it's almost like a a sliding scale and pivoting into what we term eco anxieties
where you recognize that those emotions often catalyze your actions um so a good
place to start is often thinking about your climate catalyst so it might be a moment in your life where you took
(04:46):
action for for climate for biodiversity for social action for anything in the
relation to this space there'll be a grounding emotion you felt that powered
you through to take action um so I I try and think of ones that that I have we we
all have different stories but there'll be times um there'll be a way you feel that um pushed you through to that
(05:09):
action so that's the second um way that these emotions can impact you is actually in a very positive way if you
really connect to yourself and reflect on times of previous action you can use
them to help define your action going forward interesting so so ecoaction has
has a polar polar outcome i think so
(05:31):
spectrum yeah and and it's natural to have go through waves like we think of it I think it's easy for us to think
very bipolar bipolary is that a word in two ways as human beings like um like an
all or nothing future scenario you know that's a great example when actually it's multifaceted and complicated but
emotionally as well and action it can um feel like you have to be motivated or
(05:56):
you're not and actually in reality across our lives months weeks days it's
natural for us to flux in and out of those waves it's natural to feel very dismotivated sometimes or very upright
sometimes um you know from yeah from different things that happen you do dayto-day so it's it's okay also to
accept that you might need a timeout for like an evening a week or whatever and
(06:21):
yeah I've been there been there in you know parts of my life there's been times where I felt really motivated and connected to a cause and I've been in
touch with the emotions that I feel in that moment and I feel very uh motivated and full of agency and there's times
where I really feel uh just um really not wanting to talk to anyone just binge
watching TV at home and like that acceptance of that f that's fine is also really important yeah I think um I think
(06:47):
that's a really important thing for humans to recognize is that sometimes locking yourself up in a dark room is
actually okay yeah and actually sometimes the you know taking action is okay and sometimes somewhere in between
the two is okay and sometimes it's okay is a really good expression to to just
say to yourself isn't it definitely and like that that concept of like that that imperfection that imperfect activist is
(07:12):
a great phrase that I love that's been coined in some of the organizations that I volunteer and give time to um yeah we
there's there's no perfect activist you know um imperfection is fine we're only
human so I'm glad you brought that up because perfectionism um
is is a a really difficult trait for people to uh take control of isn't it and um and actually imperfection is is
(07:38):
is a good place to recognize and to perform in um and so uh analysis
paralysis you know looking too far into what you can do and end up doing nothing
because of it um you know what your thoughts on that looking too much yeah
it's Yeah so almost like diving too much into an issue that you just become ever more overwhelmed right is that is that
(08:04):
kind of what you mean yeah well sort of trying to do everything perfectly and actually perfect is almost um you
know too far at the end yeah to reach I really resonate with that um you know
someone who just I feel you know deeply connected that this is the biggest issue of our time not only um the crisis we
face but the inaction uh people feel um that the yeah the lack of agency so yeah
(08:28):
I definitely definitely resonate with that there's moments where I'm like "Oh gosh like it feels so insignificant um
unless I do all all these different things." Um so yeah I definitely definitely resonate with that and to do
some things a little bit is sometimes better than to do nothing yeah I've had to learn that in um in both work and and
(08:50):
you know personal life it's um come to terms with it's better to do a few things really well I think than spread
yourself too thin and that's kind of some of the approach that we might talk about later with um Force of Nature the
charity that I've been um that I've been trained with that acts in this area and
helps people come use those emotions for good um yeah choosing those one or two things that you're really passionate
(09:15):
about that you have that real um real uncomfortable stomach with taking action in those two making that your like flag
that you fly is um perhaps more effective than spreading yourself all
too thin and how is um how's community involved in all of this yeah I mean
community is massive it's um from from research that's been found um particularly amongst young people so 35
(09:39):
and under but I think it's relevant to everyone is um the two things that come that it comes down to when it comes to
reasons for disempowerment and working through that is senses of community and defining what action looks like for you
so defining action that that might be reflective activities that might be exploring stuff and saying no to
(10:00):
something saying yes some things but community is really important that that um connection to like-minded people who
can you know spur you on make you feel like you're you're part of something bigger than yourself is so important so
having those people in your network and groups to be a part of is really really important and so how how do people find
those communities yeah they well we live in such a fascinating time don't we because that the world is full of
(10:24):
challenges but also full of so many wonderful organizations that are working
i think something I always struggle with is um I never want to reinvent the wheel i feel like there's there's there's
probably something someone a group somewhere that's working in a space in a theme you know a key thing relating to
sustainability um so finding them is kind of in a way easier than ever um you
(10:48):
know we have technology and online communities as well as inerson ones um
so yeah getting out talking to people discovering your local area in particular you know we talk about about
a lot about um uh acting locally thinking globally um that's really important I think being part of
communities on different scales is really important so you might have uh local organizations um in your local
(11:10):
area that you can find out about through just notice boards and asking people who've lived in town for ages um and you
could have global communities or national ones certainly with big organizations like you know things like
Save the Children or Fair Trade or Extinction Rebellion they they have massive reach so all it takes is a bit a
(11:31):
bit of research and a bit of connecting to people and social media has made that so much easier nowadays hasn't it
absolutely and there's there's so many great influencers out there as well you know you can search for for videos and
themes but also you know there's a few really great positive influencers I follow who um not only share information
but they share like communities as well and um I guess a lot of people are working in that space like that your
(11:55):
your form of action might be what action looks like to you might be increasing the reach of an organization and you're
playing your part then in something it might not have an inferred direct
reduction in carbon emissions or energy but you're actually reaching more people which um is what it's all about really
yeah absolutely i suppose one person doing one thing or 100 people doing 100 things is you know it's makes a massive
(12:21):
difference doesn't it yeah for sure absolutely so what um so let's rewind to
um to eco anxiety yeah if someone feeling is feeling you know in front of
the headlights and stuck what what sort of things can they do to pull themselves
out of it cool well I will give a shout out to Force of Nature yeah Force of Nature tell us a little bit about that
(12:45):
so Force of Nature is a CIC working at the interface between mental health and
climate change they've been leading in this space for several years um they're quite a young uh charity so they're only
about five six years old but they were set up in response to their founder and their team recognizing this dissonance
between um uh they found 70% of young people worldwide in a study of 500
(13:08):
people um said that they were their mental health was impacted by climate
change but only about 25% of them said they knew what to do about it they felt
I know they were stuck so they made this community and uh what they do to cut long story short is um they offer lots
of training programs they offer an online community to be part of um and they have loads of resources so
(13:30):
everything I'm talking about today I've only learned from you know re researching with them and um doing
training with them so yeah so big shout out to them um do go check them out anyone can join as well you don't have
to just be a young person but yeah to come back to your question about what what do people do um I think um finding
that community is really important and when we think about that second point about defining what action looks like to
(13:53):
you break breaking down those big overwhelming concepts and themes into
tangible steps and the ways you might go about doing that I think um are hooked
on maybe two or three things so the first thing is um tapping into your why your why you're we talked about a bit
earlier didn't we but your why you're doing thing doing something is almost more important than your what you're doing so I might uh for instance uh
(14:19):
interail across Europe i did it a couple years ago um that that's my what I did
but the why I did that is because I deeply believe we need to car flying and I feel very kind of proud to do that and
I want to see the scenery and stuff like that so connecting to your why something is really important to you um taps into
that emotional response and gets you in tune with your emotions a bit more which can help you in the future as well um so
(14:44):
that's your why and then I think the other couple are um reflective activities are really important we mentioned it earlier but thinking back
to times where you've taken action where you felt good about something where you've seen something through where
you've connected with community thinking back to um how you felt in that moment um and building from that is really
really important and reflection might also be that slight emotional response too so um reflecting on what works for
(15:08):
you what sort of coping mechanisms um you have what passions you have what problems you have that's all in that
reflective area and then finally it's visualization so the power of visualization is really important and
really really powerful so visualization is um thinking it's helping us
understand what a better future looks like because if we don't have a place to aim towards we'll never be able to truly
(15:34):
work back from it so it's very easy in today's world to think about all the bad things that could happen but it's a it's
a multifaceted issue and it's not an all or nothing scenario the future could look very different and um visualization
activities of you know what what could my local town look like in in 10 years time um 20 years time what does a future
(15:55):
look like where a problem I really care about has been solved um and what are the steps that we need to take to work
back from that point so finding that guiding compass is really really important i like that i like that and
that's that's sort of big picture stuff isn't it
how about the small picture where you're just feeling rotten what but is is eco
(16:21):
anxiety the same as normal anxiety is it is breathing help does does yoga help
does exercise does eating well does you know all the usual sort of things does does that help i think it varies
depending on the person so you know for me recently when I when I've been feeling quite overwhelmed and lack of
motivation I've felt quite sort of insular i kind of like just taking myself for a walk in the woods i love
(16:45):
trees i love nature every time every time of course yeah we chat a bit at the beginning so nature is really important
connecting to nature is so important you know we're we're nature- based creatures um so connecting to those places that
matter to you is really important but it will vary depending on the person but I think um yeah all the things you mentioned breathing meditative stuff um
(17:05):
is is really important when you're feeling overwhelmed um yeah but it will it will look different for each person
so that's kind of a personal journey really finding your coping mechanisms your happy places um it might be things
like journaling it might be sort of mapping out things it might be that you need to join some sort of support group to help tease out some of some of this
stuff so yeah it looks quite different i don't really have a one-sizefits- all answer for it and that's um so you you
(17:32):
said earlier about the uh the the it being sort of an under 35 year old thing
um is that is that right or I mean cuz I'm I'm in my 50s now unfortunately um
and I I guess I'm I have a a an amount
(17:52):
of eco anxiety um where where's where's the land lie with this is it people
being born into a world where they're worried or um cuz there's there's always
been worry there's always been things going on that aren't great um whether it be war whether it be politics whether it
(18:13):
be you know there's I can give you a whole list but is it any worse now than
it was two years ago five years ago 10 years it's a strange thing isn't it and um yeah sorry I didn't answer the question
first time but yeah you're right it's um it it can it definitely is when we come back to that definition of eco anxiety
it is just emotional responses so um you know there's more understanding these days that a bit of research has gone
(18:36):
into it that um general anxiety might be caused by the climate crisis
biodiversity loss a local area being demolished for housing or you know your favorite species being told the
population's gone down or something or people people starving and and dying and stuff so um it it is prevalent in people
who are over 35 as well and more and more we're thinking actually perhaps it's just enveloped in that more
(19:01):
generalized you know diagnosis of things like anxiety and depression so officially eco anxiety isn't a clinical
condition but the symptoms of eco anxiety like we talked about um are um
recognized symptoms of other clinical conditions and I think the other thing that's important to think about that has
only really come out in you know my life personally and through the training I've done and um conversation I've had is is
(19:27):
those emotional responses might vary depending on your um your upbringing and your um uh place you find yourself in
the world so the global north where we're speaking from at the moment uh versus the global south for instance
someone in the global south might be living on the front lines of climate change and biodiversity loss and seeing
you know freak weather events and affecting their day-to-day food supplies and housing conditions their generalized
(19:52):
fear and dread everyday lived experience is eco anxiety but we don't label it as
that whereas in the north we're kind of in that privileged position to actually have a bit of space to um um not only um
distance ourselves from the immediate impacts of some of this stuff but actually tap a bit more into our mental
health so for us we might define it as eco anxiety but in reality the feelings across those both parts of the
(20:16):
hemisphere um are the same they're grounded in the same um reasons for it
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(20:36):
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claim yours [Music] so if we go back to um where we were so
um what can we do about this yeah what can we do about it so I mean I'd like to I've had five years experience now in um
(21:02):
the sustainability like kind of sector I guess so I'd like to think I know some stuff and I'd like to think um I I know
I know the big impact actions we can take you know we talk a lot about that disempowerment piece i think it's really
important for people to understand um what actions have a real big impact
you know scaled impact so when I talk about what people can do I talk about those real big impact things i'm not
(21:27):
talking about the little stuff um I'm talking about yeah the things that um will hopefully bring you the most
empower sense of empowerment because they have big impact stuff so um the sort of things I like to talk about is
you know thinking about your day-to-day personal life um dietary change is really big one so we have three choices
a day to of what we put on our on our plates and um there's a lo there's so
(21:52):
much opportunity with with the food and drink that we put on our on our plates um there's so much that goes into food
production and there's so many things like um everything from packaging to um to locality seasonality all those
different facets are all really important but the core crux of it from from my opinion especially in a western
(22:12):
world country is um what the actual items are on our plate and that comes down to animal agriculture and
plant-based diets so shifting to plant-based diets has been shown in research um to require 75% less land um
have 75% less impact on things like water pollution and uh and carbon emissions so choosing plant-based
(22:34):
products to eat every day really has a transformative potential and that will
cascade down the industrial chains and all that sort of thing um so that's one big impact so um just staying on that a
second I I guess um going from being a um free meat a day um to being let's say
(22:55):
vegan um is a massive step but actually people can start making that step by
just changing one meal in a week yeah for sure um and then in a month's time
maybe change two meals and then in a bit more time maybe three and four and five and six and I like to be transparent
with people like I've been a vegan 5 years now and it was a journey you know it's it's um it's a journey that you go
(23:17):
on it took me you know three to six months to fully go that and there's different levels it will mean different
things to different people but there's you know the whole uh you know what we just said that the actual basis of
carbon impact and land impact biodiversity impact there's also an ethical you know reasons people might go
for it but yeah ultimately like you say it's um it's something it's easier than ever to do it in a western world country
(23:40):
like the UK um and there's so much resource out there you know the internet has so many recipes you can be an easy
vegan uh you know you can look into the um into the uh real uh like flagship you
know swap pops and sort of taking your favorite meal and veganifying it um or you can just Yeah I I think it's really
important i like to say to people you know when you go out for your next meal if you eat out somewhere uh why don't you choose the plant-based option you
(24:04):
know it's requiring no extra effort from you you're choosing um something that hopefully is quite a good quality meal because you're in a restaurant and you
know that's a starting place it interests me people who um flatly deny
that that's a an option um and and you know almost get angry that they're being
denied their their meat or whatever and it is a massive impact on the planet isn't it that um um you know it it uh
(24:33):
it's the one of the sole reasons that we've lost lots of our forests on the
planet or you know wooded areas um yeah and I like um yeah making it simple for
people that in my head how it works is you know we might take let's take the milk we drink so um cow's milk versus
something like oat milk um to put simply hope hopefully to help with your podcast but um you know oat milk requires a set
(24:57):
amount of land to um to grow those oats uh you might have a few inputs like you know feed and stuff like that if it's
non-organic you might have things like pesticides um and that's grown and that's mil and that's made into oat milk
um and then as soon as you have a an animal a creature in that you're having to grow those crops initially first and
have an equal perhaps more greater sum of land to rear the animals so you've
(25:21):
instantly got that doubling of like input so it makes double it's more than double more than double so yeah I don't
have the stats in my head but you know I think I think of global carbon emissions it's it's animal agriculture is responsible for something around 20 25%
um yeah that's what it's about that's massive yeah it's massive something like that have to double check
(25:42):
the stats but trust me it's around there trust me around there but yeah yeah so yeah it's
it's easier than ever and it's something we can do everyday life you know we we talk about um things we might do as a
one-off might might uh take the train rather than fly across somewhere in Europe um but this is every day this is
like really really really important really important really important what else what else i'm trying to remember my
(26:06):
list i don't want I was trying to like build up something um well we had protest we've been talking about protest
haven't we so we'll talk about protest so I think it's really important for us to also act at scales you know we've
just talked about our personal life but we need to be part of things that are bigger than ourselves as well so that
might be getting involved in your local community um joining an interest group having that action and impact that's
(26:32):
greater than the sum of your parts but also I think it's really important for us to recognize that I think a lot of the reason people feel disempowered is
because we don't think our leaders are looking after us we don't feel like they're doing our job there's a lot of people that feel really hopeless about
it and we don't feel like we can properly impact things and we look
across you know recent history and larger history recent history writing a
(26:56):
letter to your MP doesn't make a difference um gathering a group of signatures doesn't really make a
difference what makes a difference um is taking collective nonviolent direct
action and we look across um more recent history in you know the 20th century and the 19th century big transformative
changes in society to match the needs of that time were were caused by uh were
(27:22):
led by people in nonviolent action groups so people like Martin Luther King and the suffragettes movement um people
took disruptive action um and brought about change and that's what we need to
do now as well so protesting taking the message to our leaders in places like
London maybe even your local local council as well getting um getting people bodies on the line and there's
(27:46):
multiple ways you can be part of protest movements you know you it's easy to think of um I've done a whole range of
things but it's easy to think about the person who might sit in the road and block traffic um but also for each
person who does that um there's 10 people behind that doing you know social media organization running a running a
house and cooking for people doing outreach and events so the ways you can get involved in movements um like
(28:10):
Greenpeace like um Extin Rebellion and Just Oil even things like the Captain Paul Watson Foundation there's loads of
them but there's loads of ways you can get involved and I think it's really important for us to recognize we have
that we live in a country where we have that democratic freedom um more so than
others across the world and we have a we have a responsibility there to hold people account to that and where we
(28:35):
think things aren't working we should stand up for ourselves and do something about it so tell me um the protest that
you've done that's that's made the biggest amount of Yeah I mean really topical is the most recent one so um
well I'd say I'd call attention to two so October 2023 um I went and took
(28:56):
action with Just Up Oil in London so just up oil at the time were um campaigning for no new oil and gas um
extraction basically from the UK government um there's so much science behind it um go go to a welcome talk
you'll hear all about it i won't be able to split it out here but um uh yeah it's just incompatible with global warming
(29:17):
thresholds to continue drilling new oil and gas we need to stop that and we've
got about you know 5 to 8 years of um current supply of oil to transition us to that point so that was that's what
the demand was and we took action in October 2023 um in London and we decided to try and
overwhelm the police to send a message to the government that we're not okay with that so the way we were
(29:40):
overwhelming the police was um getting as many people arrested as possible so for the first time in October 2023 I sat
in a road and I got arrested for the first time and spent 13 hours in a jail cell um I was on the road for 3 minutes
i was arrested after 3 minutes it was very overwhelming and underwhelming at the same time and um yeah what you ask
what we've seen from the rep repercussions of that I I believe you know the new Labor government committed in the last manifesto to no new oil and
(30:06):
gas five years ago when just wasn't around that wouldn't have been a thing
what were you actually arrested for so um officially the uh so so this is also
the thing about protest is our rights as people in the UK are being eroded so
it's really the government and um big lobbyists from big industries that um
(30:28):
are doing are doing bad things have um put loads of new laws and enforcements in place so my I think my official
arrestable like thing was um this relatively new one which is really draconian really really bad and it's
about um uh I've forgotten the the term for it now but it's um causing
(30:48):
disruption to like national infrastructure and national infrastructure can mean anything from an airport all the way to a B- road okay so
we were taken up a B- road so the lowest spectrum of this you know um disruption
people stuck in a traffic jam for maybe half an hour an hour so presumably you were arrested and kept in a cell for 13
hours to to till the protest stopped and you could no longer be a part of it yeah
(31:13):
so again it's officially as far as I understand like police can't keep people for longer than 24 hours in a jail cell
and then you weren't charged uh yeah sitting here today I wasn't charged um it's all been Matt Fu and that that's
the that's the reason it worked the strategy and um you know I can't I can't um speak high more highly of how
historically informed these movements are and also how well organized they are you know you go um that they they knew
(31:40):
that uh overwhelming the police in the jail cells um filling those jail cells which are already like bursting already
um would demand a load of police resource put a lot of you know strain on the police and that sends a message to
government so uh yeah overwhelming with I think on that day 120 people got arrested um 120 people were taking up
jail cells people who are fighting for our future fighting on the science that sends a message like who should actually
(32:05):
be in those jail cells interesting yeah yeah that was that one and then the most recent one actually is
um sitting here today we're recording in March is um I went up and took part uh
in an action where we blocked a road for an hour outside the royal courts of justice so 16 I think as of today 15
peaceful protesters are in prison at the moment I think is one of the stats I bought 15 15 people are in prison for
(32:31):
this stuff so there's people in prison living out sentences of anything between
8 months and 5 years sitting in the road for taking action for climate for
peaceful protest nonviolent action so just sitting with that is like crazy
like uh you might expect that in a radical country like and there's so many other things going on in the in the
(32:54):
country that would require those place those places so the latest action I took
was all about that so it's a amazing organization called defend our juries and essentially it's calling out um
corruption in the court system so the fact this this has implications for whatever you deem important to you
because the rights of peaceful protest are being eroded in this country so a thousand people went up um on the day of
(33:19):
a court hearing to try and appeal these sentences that people have been given to shorten them so that was happening in
the court and we went up and blocked a road a thousand people sat in the road for um one hour um there were no arrests
i think there was one for someone who'd done some previous action but no arrests it was just pure people power in this
road in center of London on the strand um silently sitting in a road with placards calling out this injustice um
(33:46):
and we fast forward to now in March we just heard last Friday that um I think
five of those 16 sentences have been shortened as a result um 10 of them
haven't but five of them have which I think you know personally without that action wouldn't have happened good work
thanks very much thank you yeah wow wow yeah so I think um yeah I think you only
(34:12):
Yeah personally personally experiencing those things you know yeah the no new oil and gas that we find ourselves in
with this new Labor government and the fact that five of those 16 have have got reduced sentences is is progress and I
don't think it would have happened without a lot of people getting up and shouting about it or sitting quietly about it yeah yeah
okay so tell me um you talk you um talk about finances yeah yeah that was that
(34:39):
was the next one on your list yeah so um like I say coming back to that um these are what I feel big impact things for
you the listener um actions with the biggest impact so pro getting out protesting changing your diet um banking
and finance um I think about eight I think uh there's an amazing organization that's about to close actually it's sad
it's a charity called make my money matter um so I think they'll probably have a holding page or something so check out them um and also another one
(35:05):
called Switch It Green but they work in this space of um uh where our money is stored you know we use banks dayto-day
and we might have pensions if we're with an employer or we might have a private pension and
um there's big impacts we have indirectly in those so about 80% of
people don't know that your where you store your money um has an impact on the climate and and sustainability more
(35:30):
widely but the fact is um the banks and the pension organizations
uh both invest that money that's stored with them in a whole range of good and
bad things weapons weapons arms dealership war infrastructure um u
fossil fuels drugs and things like that so yeah you know thinking about sustainability you know the most
(35:54):
important thing for me is the fossil fuel industry so um yeah there's that
there's that link between those and um yeah completely right there's lots of different stuff people don't know that
and um they leverage uh the money of course that that they have in those investments that's one side of things
but perhaps the more empowering thing and the more crazy thing is that actually just the customer base um in
(36:16):
enables them to do that so you're worth about 1.5 million pounds to your bank
over your lifetime um there's been research done about that and that's because as a person in let's say
Barclays the the worst in the UK um that enables them the customer base
and the number enables them to leverage about 1.5 million pounds per person in loans and they choose to do that in a
(36:39):
whole range of ways and um by shifting your bank to a uh a more sustainably
minded one um you can shift that 1.5 million pound of leverage to uh
something with value something with purpose and if everyone you know closed their Barclays account tomorrow they
wouldn't have the money to invest in fossil fuel companies and these um these big banks are aren't transparent they're
(37:05):
they're not showing you what they're where they're spending your money no and that's the that's the big benefit with
some of the the sort of um more the greener ones where they're they're
massively transparent and you know where your money's going totally i think transparency is a big thing also just
sheer greenwash you know um so greenwash meaning um saying saying some things but
(37:28):
actually the majority of their interests and action is different so um I can't remember the exact stats but a lot of
you know the the big banks um only invest you know something crazy like 2 to 5% of their total um profit in green
stuff and they'll shout about that but the other 95% is spending really bad stuff so yeah transparency is really
(37:49):
important too so a big shout out to you know if you want my personal recommendations of what to switch to um Triados Bank I'm not sure if you're
aware of Yeah they're they're at the top aren't they they're super and they're transparent you can go through a list on their website of all their projects they
invest in um they only yeah they only invest in uh social environmentally
positive things and small scale stuff um here in the UK probably the best um high
(38:13):
street bank if you need a high street bank is nationwide they have really good policies on what they exclude their
investment from and some of the online banks are really good as well so things like st the mobile based so stling uh
I'd recommend Monzo I'd recommend but yeah Triodos is definitely the best one and when it comes to pensions you know
we haven't talked much about that that's just about having a conversation with your pension provider because a lot will offer a green pot that you can shift
(38:39):
your pension to um nowadays often with um not really a difference in risk and and you know money it will accumulate
over time but it's just a conversation they automatically put it in something that may do a combination of things uh
having conversation with them to go oh can I put it in this green bond instead that can make a lot of difference as
well so tell me what else what else um I
(39:02):
think a really important one and it's something everyone can do you know is is reconnecting to nature
because um yeah we live in such a beautiful world and we're part of such
intricate systems and cycles and reconnecting to we're meant to you know
we're meant to be in nature so reconnecting to that sense of place and
(39:27):
uh you know the places that are important to you the things uh the wildlife the the plants that are
important to you um I think it's really important that will help ground you in what you fight for but it will also
there's so many mental health benefits of being in nature i mean we talked about that with your surfing and being out in the waves i I love the stat about
how trees like release you know uh imu immunity kind of chemicals when you walk in the woods so I'm just in the woods
(39:51):
like Yeah it all in so um yeah seeing green as well like um I remember there's a
thing about like our eyes uh our eyes find it easier to look at the color
green um so we have like less you know tension and stress so when you're walking in like or if you're walking in
this room with all the green plants like you feel at ease you feel less stress you mean in the jungle in the jungle
(40:14):
yeah is it Is this called the jungle yeah this is the jungle this is the jungle yeah thank you jungle big shout out um so yeah all those sort of things
so re just um being being in natural spaces um has lots of mental health
benefits but also reconnecting to those places that matter to you will help ground you in action um yeah I love the
(40:35):
phrase uh nature is responsible nice nature is responsible for me nature is
responsible for my physical health because I do a lot of walking i do a lot of surfing i do a lot of climbing hills
um it's responsible for my mental health if ever I'm feeling like I need uh need
to sort my head out I'm straight out into the into the woods or uh into the ocean um it's responsible for what goes
(41:00):
on my plate it's responsible for what clothes I wear it's responsible for
pretty much everything that's good in my life nature is responsible that's lovely it's a really nice metaphor and um and I
I can't um I go back to my grandparents
as farmers um you know saying that we were custodians of the land and looking
(41:24):
after it for our future generations yeah and that's something that uh I think um
when when we think of how we can look after nature we need to think of how we can do it naturally without thinking
about it rather than taking action to look after nature we should just be
doing it intuitively totally um so that leads me nicely on to
(41:51):
contradiction nice and we talked earlier about imperfection and um how being
perfect isn't well it's not possible no it's it's impossible it is um and so
we've all got contradictions in our world um you know tell me a little bit
(42:11):
about yours and and how do you how do you get your head around Yeah having these contradictions yeah I'd say um
yeah I think uh a couple of contradictions in my life uh yeah it's really important to be transparent about
these things i think of late probably contradictions are I have a big gasg
guzzling diesel camper van right um and it's a crazy story with that because in October 2023 two two crazy things
(42:37):
happened to me i got arrested for the first time and I won a camper van you won so I won this camper van okay in a
competition in a raffle ticket amazing like me and my family have always dreamed of having a camper van for
camper van holidays and just um having a bit of van life and getting out exploring so it was amazing time and I
guess um yeah that's added a second car to my household it's added a pretty hefty car to my household it's a diesel
(43:01):
car um and uh you know I'm very passionate about using um about uh reducing single occupancy car use and
using public transport and active travel and all those things so to suddenly throw a van in there does seem kind of
contradictory and you know I drove here today in the van um and I find it really difficult sometimes
because because people are really quick to judge on that you know so um as soon
(43:27):
as I won it I I remember there were like two types of people like people just couldn't believe it um and you know
there were people that even said there's there's no one more deserving to win it Jake and that was lovely but there's
also those people that stick out in your mind like people I'd call close friends who would immediately go "Oh well Jake
that's not very sustainable what are you doing with that van are you going to scrap it surely that's the best thing to do with it why Why you Why are you
(43:50):
driving around in your diesel van?" And it's just Yeah so that's a contradiction but it spurs that other point
about about Yeah like being critical and how I think that's not helpful for
addressing things like eco anxiety like we need to be in a place of celebratory you know looking looking for the
positives so looking for the positives in that van is um I've been able to do slow travel up to Scotland um I've been
(44:16):
able to explore places and take things uh yes slower so stay overnight um
things like that it's helped other people so you know my my brother and my dad have been able to use it and and bring them happiness too have you been
able to um to be in nature more i'd say so yeah yeah yeah so yeah that the
ability to just um explore more of Cornwall and just get out and um and spend longer in a place you know you
(44:40):
don't have to dash there and dash back when you have a camper van so that's that's always really nice too so I'm
interested in the um duality between um uh being able to have a camper van
and um use more diesel yeah yeah and improve your mental health yeah and how
(45:03):
you can um balance that um it's like taking like for example taking holidays
um you know you come back from a holiday and you feel refreshed and brand new and
ready to uh take on the world and pro potentially be better just by having
that break so it's a it's a trade-off isn't it it
(45:28):
is and I think it's um I think um the means at which you
might travel or go on holiday is one factor but there's so many other things you can think about like when when you
said Steve about um this just needs to be natural to us i'd like to think I
kind of have that so um you know I won't lie coming here today in the van for example these this is what my life looks
(45:50):
like most days is I was sat there a week ago i spent a good half an hour 45 minutes going what would I have to do if
I got the train and the bus to Yuki to see Steve what would it mean for the van could I visit somewhere while I'm there
to make a day of it um would that justify taking that van um you know
other stuff so uh I had that you know moment of um going okay if I'm going to
(46:13):
do this how can I maybe do it in a way that's a bit more responsible uh how can I use this privilege in a way that maybe
gives back a little or benefits me a bit more things like that and I think um yeah the other thing I was going to say
is I've just boo booked my first international holiday for the first time in four years i haven't flown in four years and um yeah similar things to that
so I'm going on safari with my dad in in South Africa it's been a dream of ours for ages and um I guess uh yeah from from
(46:40):
the offset I've tried to design this trip to um be more sustainable it's hard so yes I'm going to fly there um getting
to Johannesburg by any other means seems quite difficult um but I'm going to uh
you know I'm planning this trip i've done a lot of research into types of lodges uh whether they're smallcale
community-led whether they give back to those communities can we do walking safaris instead of driven safaris um you
(47:05):
know how how can we reduce our impact of that holiday can we stay longer um to
you know um make make the most of that is there a give back thing we can do while we're there um and can we carbon
offset the flight because as a last resort you know we should be doing things like that so I think having that
critical thinking in the offset is is really important and uh yeah you're right it is really hard to Yeah steer
(47:29):
away from that perfectionism but I think having that process is important and yeah like like we chatted about about
the benefits of mental health i just I feel like I'm in a stage where arguably you need to see some of the world to
know what needs protecting and what what wonders are out there right yeah absolutely again it's taking you to
nature yeah yeah nature is responsible it is yeah so it's a nature holiday
(47:52):
isn't it and um Yeah yeah i think I wouldn't fly if it were any other way in terms of like you know I wouldn't just
go for a city break and fly there like I'd go for nature to see some of these amazing habitats like congregation of
the most beautiful wildlife in the world which which which I'm sure that will
infuse you further into your sustainability career yeah I'd hope so
(48:14):
and I think um for me it's uh it's it's come at a time where I think I feel like
in a period of flux and change in my life um where I might want to pursue some different things i'm sort of maybe
lacking a bit of my focus on what what really drives me and I'm looking back to nature for it because I'm a
zoologologist by trade i'm in this for the natural world um and for the last 5 years it's you know been predominantly
(48:36):
desk based stuff and people based stuff quite material um I'm kind of look I I
really am looking forward to go to just get a sense of perspective and get a sense of inspiration you know for what
might come next in the next five years of my life yeah absolutely contradiction big contradiction yeah but
yeah we got to be honest and open about those things and I think the process of how we come to those decisions and yeah
(49:00):
make it everyday conversation and um yeah could inspire people
so this brings me to a question which I' I'd like to ask
everybody is what can we do today what single thing can we do today love that
to make a better tomorrow what single thing can we do today well I think I've
(49:23):
given a lot of things you could do but I think the crux of it is for me come coming back to um sitting with those
feelings uh that could be in reaction to things you see in the news things you see in your local place stuff we've
talked about today just really make space for um okay how am I feeling in
response to that and and why am I feeling that way coming back to that why because if we do that you'll you'll help
(49:46):
unlock those real core drivers and that will help you dictate what action you
take dictate um what what change you make in the world and it's really important for us to ground ourselves I
think in that so um that could be by yourself could be quite reflective um could be with the help of others but I
think yeah making space and normalizing the need to yeah detox um
(50:11):
and get in touch with yourself is what I'd recommend people do love it jake
thank you very much for coming on today you're welcome and that has brought me slightly closer to uh searching for my
greener room hey nice that's good i'm glad thank you so much and uh once again thank you very much take it easy you
have a lovely day thank you that's it for this episode of Searching for a Greener Room we'd love to hear your
(50:35):
thoughts let us know what you think who you'd like to hear from any topics you
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