S1E12: Crustacean Nation: What It Takes to Rebuild Our Lobster Stocks – With Ben Marshall

Curly Steve and Ben Marshall discuss what it really takes to rebuild our lobster populations, why these creatures are vital to healthy seas, and the surprising challenges that come with keeping our oceans in balance. Ben, who once ran music venues before retraining as a marine biologist, now leads production at the National Lobster Hatchery in Cornwall, where he works on the frontline of marine conservation.

In this episode, you’ll hear about the extraordinary life cycle of lobsters, the threats they face from pollution and overfishing, and the hatchery’s work to give these animals a fighting chance. Ben shares his journey from rock and roll to marine science, explains how fishermen and conservationists can work together, and reveals some mind-blowing facts about lobsters – including their unusual biology and potential longevity.

The conversation is packed with practical takeaways, from simple daily choices that support ocean health, to wider reflections on sustainability, food miles, and why small actions really matter. Whether you’re passionate about marine life, curious about conservation, or just love a good story of transformation, this episode will give you plenty to think about.

For more inspiring conversations, subscribe to Searching for a Greener Room on your favourite platform, and visit searchingforagreenerroom.com to explore the project.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Only one in every 20,000 lobster eggs survives in the wild to adulthood. Hi,
I'm Curly Steve and I'm searching for a greener room. [Music]
[Applause]
Ben Marshall swapped a life of rock and roll for marine conservation and now leads production at the National Lobster

(00:26):
Hatchery in Cornwall. He's dedicated to giving lobsters a fighting chance in our seas. Ben, welcome to the show.
Thank you very much. Very excited to have you on this afternoon. Um, but let's rewind for a minute. Can you tell me what was your
life like as a kid and uh what happened back then? Well, I'm originally from a small
miltown outside of Manchester called Ashton Underline. Um, which is where I grew up and um, yeah, went to school,

(00:52):
went to college. uh you know luckily for my early interest in nature which was
always there even as a child great places like the natural history museum and things like that um you know they
cultivated that interest um and went to college um actually went to college to

(01:13):
get into paleontology and basically my A levels are too hard okay so uh me me being really
intelligent what's paleontology paleontology paleontology the study of prehistoric life. So interesting that kind of stuff.
So that's that's was my original like thing I tried to pursue as a career when I was going in, you know, from high

(01:34):
school into six form. So doing appropriate A levels. But yeah, it was the wrong time in my
life, right, to be focused, you know, on that sort of stuff. And the part-time job while I was
at Six Form was working in a music venue, which was a great little uh great

(01:54):
little music venue um again on the outskirts of Manchester called the Witchwood. Okay. And it was it was just one of these
classic little venues. It had had load, you know, loads of bands had played there that went on to bigger and better things and loads of bands that had been
to bigger and better things and were now on the way down also played there. And that just evolved into my sort of career

(02:16):
for six, seven years. You know, we started working there part-time. I was at college. College didn't go so well.
Worked there full-time. And we eventually ended up uh me and my brother and the manager of the place at the time
ended up buying it off the owners. So, the the guys who owned it um had a big pub chain and were off
getting offloading some of the smaller non-branded venues. So we took it over and ran that quite successfully for a

(02:41):
few years as a as a live music venue. Yeah. Amazing. And you play a bit of music as well, don't you?
Yeah. Yeah. I'm a I'm a drummer and in that period of time I was actually a drummer in a Metallica tribute band for
several years which was good fun. Gets you around the country as well as as keeping in with you know
working in in that environment. And I don't know, you know, it it was just after a certain period of time. I mean,

(03:06):
it let's say when I was younger that the lifestyle that comes with working in those kind of
places was very appealing, but as you get older, he's run out of steam. You know, it was tiring, you know, doing if
2:00 finishes, getting the place open again, dealing with bands because we used to have bands on seven days a week
there. Um, of all different genres, different. What sort of uh what year was this?

(03:30):
Yeah, we're going back to what 99 to like 20045.
So live music venues were sort of in effect back then, weren't they? Yeah. Yeah. They were going Oh, yeah. You know, you could put three
local bands on and get 200 people in every time. There was, you know, it's a different people just consume media in a different
way, I think, these days. So, getting people out um to see, particularly on signed acts,

(03:56):
I think it's more tricky these days. And I think you're going to, you know, that's they they say, don't they now
where are all the bands? You know, there's not there's a lot of artists coming through, you know, solo people,
but the bands has slowed down on coming through the industry, right? And I think a lot of that is they the

(04:17):
less frequented local local venues. Um, and people just, you know, it's we live
in a different society now, don't we? It's like people don't want to go out on a Wednesday night and get 10 pints down and and watch a load of unsigned acts,
but they were great nights and that's how, you know, that's how these bands cut their teeth, you know. So, I think we'll see the effect of that in the next

(04:37):
10 years, I think. I think as well, um, when the laws changed with the sort of 24-hour
opening, it the band started coming on a lot later, but back in the day, you were able to go out at 7:00 in the evening
and still be tucked up in bed by, you know, 11:00 at the latest. Yeah. But now, I mean, I've got a funny story
about that. Like, it was only what my mid-40s now. It's a couple of couple of years ago. Me and my mate were in Nuki.

(05:01):
We'd gone out for a few beers. We'd had a great time, you know, have something to eat, have a few beers. And we were just sat outside like lamenting the
reality of the situation. Like, God man, Nuki used to be cracking. There was music on, you know, you could go to
there'd be two or three pubs that have bands on. What's happened to the place? And as our taxi pulled up, the band
arrived in their van. And then you think, "Oh, we're going home before the band have

(05:26):
even arrived and things move on." Absolutely. So, so, so that how did that
draw to a close and was that when you came down south? Yeah. Yeah. So basically that that
business got to a point where we could either push on and carry on as it became it

(05:46):
started those challenging times of of getting ax in and and and so on or go different you know go all go
different ways and you know it was it was a natural break for the three of us that were involved in that business that
just were like you know yeah let's move on and one of my things in my mind at the time was this is great

(06:07):
fun, but you wanted to be involved in nature when you were a kid, when you were going to college, even
that was still part of your decision- making. And and this evolved, that music thing evolved for a number of years, and
it was great fun, but it was like, man, get back on track. Yeah, for sure. Get back on track. Do what you
That's not paleontology, man. No, exactly. Do you know what I mean? But it sucks you in. You're in your early 20s and this is great. You can

(06:32):
drink at work. Yeah. Yeah. Fratonizing with bands and finding the requests for their rider and
Yeah. You know what I mean? So, it was all good fun. But, you know, as I was
getting into my late late 20s, you're like, "Come on, let's get focused in and back on to what you wanted to do and and
make an impact in some way, positive impact, you know, because nature is so important to me." and being in it,

(06:56):
whether it's a forest, a a poppy field, out at sea, looking rockpools, what and
it just makes you, I think, feel alive because especially in the modern world, I think so much of what we do is not
real. And I know that sounds crazy, but you can be sat at home sometimes with the kids and my wife and everything. I

(07:17):
love them all dearly, but when everyone's engaged in their other things and they're still talking to their mates
and facetiming and all this, the house is actually quite quiet, right? Do you know what I'm saying?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, nature is like, "Yeah, that's real. That got wet. Oh, that stung me."
You know, you're in it. You're really there. Absolutely. And that's one of the big big factors I like. You know, sometimes in the

(07:41):
evening, I'll just sit in the garden and watch the bats and look at the trees. It's beautiful thing to do, isn't it?
Yeah. Just be present, you know. Um and and that's that's why I
eventually got back into that. So So you left the the music scene. We left the Yeah. left the music scene.
Um and uh me and my now wife were quite recently together at that time. And

(08:06):
she'd left a job. She was not, you know, she wasn't particularly interested. She was working for a bank at the time. And
you know, we were like, you know, let's just let's just go on a holiday. We'll go and do a season down Cornwall.
Down Cornwall. And that was literally it. We didn't move we didn't go, right, we're moving to corn. It's like, let's go do a season

(08:27):
um and figure out what we want to do. What year was that? 200
56. I think that was when I met you, wasn't it? Yeah, we met you. That's what I mean. I've known you pretty much the whole time.
Yeah, I remember like when Yeah. Karina met you early on and I yeah I knew you
from longboarding on your head fame which we don't like to talk about. It's

(08:50):
still a skill and I think I think we should talk about that some more. But yeah, so that was about about then. So
we came down, we were working um campsite jobs, living in the static, great, having a
great time. Brought a bag of clothes each. There was no intent to stay. Mhm. And it was just it's just so much more
in you're so much more in contact with nature. and just walking on the beach

(09:14):
like people don't appreciate it because you know when we all live around here now and and it's amazing but you know
you go back to Manchester and walk around with your shoes off and things like that people think you're a weirdo people throw garbage at you man it's
like you you know so and I think what you were saying there
just just struck a nerve because it's so um when you when you live amongst it

(09:38):
it's so easy to just take it for granted isn't it and um I remember um I worked for a few minutes as a taxi driver and
I'd drive from the airport down the hill at Watergate Bay and the people in the
back would be super excited about the view and I'd sort of go, "Oh yeah, oh yeah, that's that's a lovely view that."

(09:58):
Yeah. And sometimes it takes that that external point of view just make you really appreciate
or someone will say, "Look at that sunset." And you look over and you go, "Oh yeah, I had I hadn't noticed that
for the last half an hour." We all remember the crazy that was COVID, you know, like and I remember hearing something that really made me think
about that which was do you remember Madonna Yeah. was criticized cuz she was moaning about being locked away in her house

(10:22):
and then they were showing her house with this massive swimming pool, sauna complex, tennis courts, in-house cinema
and all this. And the world was just like, "What's she on about?" Yeah. She looks great. It's like a resort I'd go to and she
lives there. But it's her reality. Yeah. And she was trapped in that day like we all were,
you know. So we our reality, you can't judge other people's points of

(10:46):
view, you know. That's her reality. Like we're saying about the people with the view when you were taxi driving and wow, what an amazing view. How great is that?
You're like, yeah, it's Yeah. It's there every day. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So So you came to Cornwall.
Yeah. And what what happened then is So we came to Cornwall. We were doing the summer jobs. Um and then we, you

(11:07):
know, I ended up Cornwall College had recently opened and and they were
offering courses that I was interested in. Um they were do at the time they were doing different stuff like wildlife
media courses um marine conservation and that kind of stuff and I was like I might
I'll have a look into that. So I didn't I'd done enough at six form when I was looking into getting into paleontology

(11:30):
to have enough that I didn't have to you know go back and do any entrance stuff and I can just
say right okay yeah you can start we suggest you do the foundation degree first
and then up it at the end so that's what I did so so that would be what 2006 to
about 2000 yeah so 2006 to 2008 I did the foundation degree Um, again, similar

(11:56):
situation as when we were, it was the music venue stuff. I'd got a part-time job at the aquarium while I was
studying, which then transferred into full-time after I'd finished the foundation degree. Now, I'd always intended to top
to top that up to be the full degree, but it was like, well, I'm getting relevant
experience. Um, my wife was pregnant at the time, so it's like, you know, maybe I better

(12:21):
have a job. Yeah. Yeah. Quite important. is quite important at the time. Um, so yeah, so I
thought I'll I'll do this job because it's good experience. You're in the industry, got a foot in the door and uh
did that for a couple more years before I then topped up the degree. So I thought the best time to do that would be when the second kid arrived.
Excellent. So I was working full-time, two kids under three doing a degree. Oh, that kept you on your toes.

(12:47):
That kept me on my toes and I think I think that's when the beard went gray. Yeah. Yeah. Um, definitely. Um but yeah so
throughout that whole period I was doing doing all that it was quite a stressful period and then the aquarium you know
again you've been there some time I was like yep done I think what were you doing at the aquarium? Oh well I was an aquarist which is
basically a waterbased zookeeper. Excellent. So you look after aquatic animals.

(13:12):
Um is this something you had done before or is it totally I'd always I'd always like well I say
always but for years I'd kept tropical fish as as an interest.
Um, again, keeping that little bit of nature in your room, like these plants we've got around us now, it's a similar
sort of thing. Um, but when I was doing the studying and and and that just sort of gelled

(13:34):
together and it was I really enjoyed that time, you know, it was good. You you were forever taking, you know, we'd
have groups come and visit. You'd take them on rockpool rambles and like you got kids from like inner London
on never seen the sea before. Yeah. and don't know what a crab is. And that's not no disrespect to them, but
it's a completely different environment. Yeah, for sure. You know, um and and you know, getting people to

(13:58):
just have a look at Oh, that is quite interesting. and trying to get, you know, culture, cultivate that uh
interest in them, uh for just having a little awareness of of of what's around them and appreciate
that what might not be on your doorstep is worthy of your attention and possibly
looking after, you know, and that stoke that you have is super super important for being able to share

(14:23):
that, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. It's it's it's it's the point of doing things. Like I don't think you should have a
like for example an aquarium without that kind of trying to get that messaging out in some way. Definitely. Um you know I'd say it's it's a must
really that you know to legitimize what you're doing because often like in aquariums people
are like oh is it right keeping these fish and all that? It's like, well, I

(14:48):
can see your point, but equally, do you have the same point of view about the thousands of tons of fish that are caught every day?
Like, it's a fraction of what's in those nets is in those tanks and it's live.
And uh, you know, some so there's there's pros and cons on both sides, I think. I think particularly for younger
children, seeing a real animal is is is impactful. I have this same sort of um

(15:12):
contradiction in my head with zoos. Yeah, same. Um, and and that's the same thing, isn't it? You're keeping an
animal that otherwise wouldn't necessarily be there. However, you're also saving thousands of animals by
people seeing them, seeing them and having an interest in it. And having an interest in it, you're talking about some random animal
halfway around the world. Yeah. And the and the research that goes on with them and stuff like that. Yeah. There's a lot there's a lot that

(15:36):
needs to be done. And I think I think part of that comes from this utopic idea that the general public seem to have
about the wild is it should be in the wild. You know, like I've always said this like from a zoo like zoo aquarium point
of view that you know imagine imagine an alien came and took you out of your
world. Yeah. It's like how fantastic. Right. Let's do a bit of research. Right. All right. So,

(16:02):
we'll give him a spear and he and and there's a there's a hole in that cliff. He can live in that and
catch his own food. He's going to be well happy. It's like, no thanks. HD TV and a an oven. You know, our natural
environment means nothing to us anymore. And we can't live in it. Most people, you know, you could most people couldn't
survive a month in the wild. Um myself included. Yeah. Yeah. However, however, um pretty

(16:28):
much everyone you spoke speak to will tell you how much the nature does their um mental physical
health. But yeah, but it's a it's a it's a dangerous and aggressive place, you know, and I think so sometimes that is,
you know, if it's like the lobsters at where I work now, they've got some display animals and people are like,
"Oh, did they do you let them go?" And it's like, do you know there's a million lobster pots around Colemore? It's like, "What

(16:53):
do you think they're going to go and do? live with the Little Mermaid and have a lovely life. It's like
no. So, so when we like you say when we get into those debates, it's I have the
absolutely yes, everything should be wild. It should be free, but that requires a slightly different
world for those things to exist in that we currently have. Yeah. Yeah. So, so just going back to

(17:19):
the aquar blue reef aquarium y and you've um you've come to the end of
that slot and something come. I mean part of that was driven by the fact like I said our our second kid
arrived around you know I'd been there few years I was studying and it it made
sense for me at that particular time to be the primary carer for the kids. Yeah. So that's part of the driver for why I

(17:42):
left that job. Mh. But then, you know, 12 months later, you're thinking, "Oh, this is all
settled." You know, one of them's at school. You can get the other one into nursing. And it just so happened um a
job popped up at the National Lobster Hatchery in Padto, which was a sort of
bit of everything I wanted. So, I developed all the aquatic husbandry skills of keeping animals and,

(18:06):
you know, to a professional level. Um, and
but this job offered the opportunity to put something back and and that was
really key in that that shift for me cuz um you're we we basically were in the
business of releasing baby lobsters into the sea. It's going to get onto that. Yeah. And that's but that's that that

(18:31):
element that direct conservation using the skills I had. was like, "This
all sounds pretty good to me." So, I applied, I was lucky enough to get the job, obviously based on all the other
experiences and and whatnot. And um yeah, and I've been there 13 years in
January. Is it that long? Goodness. It's gone. It's extraordinary. Time flies. Yeah. So, for those of for those who who don't

(18:57):
know about the uh National Lobster Hatchery in Padto,
tell us about it. Okay. So uh this year is the the national lobster hatchery's 25th
birthday. So it's been going quite some time uh before I was there obviously and um at its core it is um trying to

(19:18):
improve sustainability of lobster fishing. That is that is how it was
begun and it started the the guy who set the place up was uh chief sea fisheries
officer for Cornwall at the time. So basically overseeing the regulation and enforcement of fishing rules in Cornwall
and there was a a not I wouldn't say a drastic decline but a not notable small

(19:43):
trend down on lobsters and he was very aware that in Scandinavia around Norway
and Denmark and and Sweden and and that area of the North Sea and stuff that
their lobster stock had basically crashed um in the 70s late 70s.
and despite all efforts had not recovered. So that was to him we

(20:06):
probably need to develop skills to try and head that off if that was to happen here because lobsters are massively
economically important to the particularly the inshore less impactful fishing boats if you
will. Um it's their bread and butter. They catch you know a few crabs and all that but lobsters are worth good money.
Um so to keep that industry and that community going he was like right we

(20:31):
need to set up this and and learn. So the a lot of the learning you know I
happened to walk in on 10 years after they'd set up and was carrying it on.
But I think where it's become much more than it were not just fish supplementing
fishing lobsters are were chosen as as well as the economic impact but for the

(20:55):
environmental impact. They're they're like caretakers of the seabed. So they'll eat the dead and dying. They'll
eat even worse than that that comes out the other end of other animals, right?
And and they keep species in check that would other otherwise have a detrimental
effect on the sea with regards to it supplying food for people. Like sea

(21:18):
urchins, for example, love eating kelp and seaweed. A lot of the fish we eat depend on those
areas as juveniles. Oh, okay. So like all your pollock and stuff like seab bass and that when
they're this a few inches long they're in all that kelp and hiding and staying out of the way. If lobsters were gone,
that environment would disappear. Interesting. Few years later, our fish stocks would take a pretty hefty nose dive.

(21:45):
And and so almost like the sort of the wolf in uh in in the UK.
Yeah. It's that whole that whole concept that Yellowstone concept of keeping everything in in balance and
and you know I think that that was a super important uh thing for me to want to be involved in and and you know where
I what I think is great about the the National Lobster Hatchery is that as a conservation

(22:11):
organization nobody's prohibiting anything. you were working with the fisherman,
you know, and to because they, you know, no, I don't believe most fishermanmen out there uh uh like the pirate sort of
branding that they seem to get in the media and whatnot. Yeah. They've got kids, they've got mortgages on boats and
houses. They don't want to be catching the last of anything either. Um so

(22:36):
it's been great working in that element as well. You know, when I first was approaching fishermen about, can you can
you get any egg carrying lobsters? Can you give us a shout? And this was before that's commercially banned now. You
can't land. We'll get into that later, but at the time it was like, yeah, can you? And they were like, but you work at
that conservation place, don't you? And it's like, but you're a fisherman. Like, we both want more fish in the sea. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

(22:58):
How can we not work together on that? That makes perfect sense. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. It's like it's nobody, you can't judge
other people, you know, and fishermen have a job to do. They have I think generally have a bad rap but you know as
a roughly speaking as a as a species 25% of what we eat comes out of the sea right
um so we should all be vestedly interested in looking after that and be much more outraged by other

(23:24):
profiting companies that are trying to not help that you know I think you know
we can't sim as as our population grows the sea cannot simultaneously be our ladder and our rubbish dump
it's not going to work for sense. No, there's more and more pressure on the food element
and you're knocking that back all the time with, you know, the the dumping of whatever.

(23:49):
It's it's they're diametrically opposed points and so I reckon relatively soon
people are going to have to decide, well, what is it? A tip or a ladder? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
You know, and I think in this modern world, you can't just say, well, let it just be the C.
But I think looking at it from a a food source point of view leads more of us

(24:12):
towards caring for that. Absolutely. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
So that's that's why and that's part of the messaging is what we're getting out through the So you're all about um the message of s
sustainability. Sustainability but also but what do you actually do there? What so mechanically?
Yeah. go through the process from you don't you say you don't use

(24:36):
we don't breed lobsters don't breed lobster we don't breed them so the fishermanmen bring us in egg carrying lobsters
okay um these are just caught the same way they just fishing they just look different
they're fishing and under the tail of a lobster when they're carrying eggs it's full you can see them they're just full
of eggs I should have brought a picture to show you never mind but yeah so like quite obviously under the tail it's full of

(24:58):
eggs and and So under since I forgive me on
the detail, I want to say 2016, it's been illegal to commercially land egg carrying lobsters in England. So they
should be returned to the sea. So we have now a tag system where I'm allowed to distribute tags to fishermen that

(25:19):
they can then put around the floor of a lobster. So the powers that be board their vessel, they know that they know, oh no, that that egg carrying
lobster is Why would they Why would they um carry egg carrying lobsters anyway?
Um because well the the because it's not believed that all
fishermen return them to the sea. Um so things like what's called scrubbing. So some fishermanmen will scrub eggs off

(25:44):
lobsters so they can land them because the law states carrying eggs. Right. It's not carrying eggs anymore.
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Whereas so it's it's there's not any value in
the eggs or anything. Not like No, it's just about they want to land that fish. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Um you know, uh there are many many reasons, you know, but you know,

(26:06):
most fishermanmen most fishermanmen are not doing that. I don't want this is what I'm saying, you know. Yeah. Yeah. So, you've got your you've
got your legally bought in egg carrying lobster. Egg carrying lobster. Then they go into our tank. So, we have
um we have a receiving tank for all the new mothers. Mhm. Um where they'll go into a tank that is
seasonally matched with the sea. So we cuz we you don't want to accelerate the development of their eggs. If they come

(26:32):
in in the summer, it'll be quite warm. If they come in in the winter, it'll be you know get it down to 9 8 n degrees.
So you're you're just keeping them in that natural developmental window of the egg. And then when they their eggs go
from a black quite a jet black, they look like blackberries. That's why they're called buried hens. Ah okay. Um, but they go red in the last

(26:54):
few weeks of their development. Then we put them into the hatching tanks where we just leave them to it. They know what
they're doing with their eggs better than we do. And the babies hatch off in these tanks and then we collect them all
up. So the babies are attracted to light. So when they first hatch in the sea, they rise up to where all the other
plankton is and start feeding, doing their thing. In the hatchery, we use a little light in the corner of the tank

(27:16):
that they swim towards and then they get sucked out through the return pipe to the filter. Sorry, microphone. The
return pipe to the filter and and there's a break in that where there's a little collection vessel. So, every
morning we go in, there are the babies. Move them into an ongoing vessel where they'll spend the next two weeks. And
then after after that, they start to sh in that time they'll have shed their skin or their shell three times. So then

(27:42):
on that fourth shed of the shell, the first time in their life about two two
and a bit weeks old, they look like a proper mini lobster. Okay. So then we transfer them.
How big are they at this stage? They're about couple of centimeters total length, like stretched out claws,
tiny little things. But that's the point in their life where they're starting to get ready to head to

(28:04):
the seabed. So then we'll keep them for another week or two in these upwelling tanks we have
called aqua hives. They're basically just a full like like sectioned off
trays that you stack up with lobsters in. It's like an apartment building if you will. Stack them up, you can end up with 3,000
juvenile lobsters in one tube. And then another, you know, say week or two after we've transferred them into

(28:27):
that, you go out to sea and are released and that's the natural time in their life where they're looking for the seabed. Now, the reason we're
doing that is because those little juvenile lobsters, like I said, are wanting to be on the seabed. what we
call benthic at that stage. So they want to go down and live on the seabed and they'll find little hideyholes and

(28:48):
rocks to go under and little crevices. Whereas in their first few weeks of life
is where most lobsters are lost. So from hatching settling on the seabed, it's thought 99% of lobsters are eaten
and before they even get there. So that's why the lobster hatchery is there to help give them just help a leg up.
Yeah. It's one of our taglines is just giving mother nature a helping hand. Perfect. And you know, you're just trying to get

(29:11):
a few more of those babies that would just be obliterated should a sardine shell come past. They're like living
fish food, I refer to them as. And I know that's not nice for the babies you're looking after, but they are living fish food. So everything, they're
just part of the plankton. So everything from basking sharks to sardines and jellyfish are picking them off. So over

(29:31):
that the attrition over those first couple of weeks of their life virtually none of them reach the seabed.
So just getting a few more there goes a long way to helping shore up population
around Cornwall. So how many do you have in in how many um egg carrying

(29:51):
lobsters lobsters do you have at a time? We we have about usually about somewhere
around 30 at different stages of their development. But we try and keep the number good in the
in the season. So lobsters don't you know they there's a peak season
for them in his early like late spring early summer. So about May, right, is we're going hell hell for leather.

(30:15):
Hell for leather. It's almost like it's almost overwhelming how many can be in and the
the work that's involved. Mhm. And then now it's starting to e off into late summer. And then by October we'll
be there'll be a couple left that So what's what goes on between October and uh and May again?
Servicing all the systems, getting all the pumps done, making sure the visitors center is back up to scratch after a

(30:41):
hard season and doing all that maintenance and preparing for for the next season. Really
amazing. Um but yeah, in a nutshell, that's why we do what we do, you know. So, you do a
whole lot more than that as well, don't you? Because uh you you've got the obviously the lobster hatchery that
going on, but also you do a lot of uh uh educational stuff, don't you? Yeah. So, we like I said, we've got our

(31:05):
visitor center where people can come and see the work basically the hatchery and people can come in and watch the different stages.
Yeah. Yeah. So like the the the hatchery is just behind glass and so people can see all what we do
and then there's a bit of a story about you know that takes you through a bit of Cornish coastal wildlife and trying to
show kids what they might see if they go rock pooling and how to do that nicely and then a bit of fishing history and

(31:30):
and and yeah and and just trying to get that that idea of sustainability
forward. you know the the idea the concept itself is referred to in in the
industry as stock enhancement. So okay so you're you're making a natural stock
of something um more robust and I've always said if I won the lottery I'd fill the key down in

(31:53):
Padto with buildings looking doing sea bass and everything. This concept of getting marine organisms that we eat to
recruit better to their population by getting them through their laral phases is just, you know, it's something that's
it's fun. It's interesting. And as a direct, that's the problem though is that is that laral stage.
Yeah. It's that's where most of everything out there is lost. It's fascinating. You know, you think a single lobster for

(32:20):
example on average has about 10,000 eggs. Okay. So two roughly two two clutches of
eggs will get one or two babies to the bottom. So out of one one female
basically would be very lucky if one of her babies hits a seabed at a month old. Wow. That's what about when the

(32:41):
hatchery's involved? Well, that so yeah, so that so going off the same hen where
one might reach the seabed, we'd probably get uh we'd probably get about,
you know, few hundred, five, four, 500 down off her. Okay. Um so the the increase of survival of

(33:02):
her batch of eggs that year is exponentially more than it would be naturally. That's incredible. Um yeah so she's
basically done a reproduction for her life in one season. Um yeah uh and it's just helping them
through you know the same like say you could do the same thing sea bass we hear some years you can catch them some years you can't catch them it's like well

(33:24):
sea bass they farm them all over the world so their life cycles are known quantity but instead of putting them into growon ponds when they get to like
few inches long and can swim chuck a few million into the sea
makes sense doesn't yeah you always get those few people that you know they I think I call them professional critics
where they're like, well, what's the effect of all this? What's is it responsible to release all these? And it's like it's a the questions don't

(33:50):
arise about the take. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, well, hang on. Is it not more prevalent as to what is the population
impact of removing x,000 tons of a certain animal every year,
but but the when someone's trying to rectify that, the questions are, oh, should you be doing this or is it
responsible? Um it's like at the moment, yeah, because we've done, you know, we we've had we work with very clever

(34:13):
people at X University and stuff as well and uh other universities, you know, that Plymouth University and you know,
and who help us figure out some of the science and we've had a a chap called uh
Charlie Ellis. He's a a PhD doctor of uh lobsters basically
he's worked for us for a few years. He's worked for exit and his his work over the last few years has been looking at

(34:40):
the impact of hatcheries. So what impact do we have on the genetic diversity of the population because that
you know that batch of babies is a lot more survived that year and basically long story short you could not really
very much if any. Yeah. you know, given the the the relatedness of all the other lobsters

(35:01):
and the variability of their genetics that for until we you know, if we were releasing 10 million lobsters a year,
maybe there's something to start having a good think about, but not at the moment.
So, what what what are the challenges that you face? Um the biggest challenge we face is um
water pollution. Um the river camel um where the hatchery

(35:26):
is based or the on the estry side of the river Camel just near the Padto harour is uh yeah I mean like most of Cornwall
I think the rivers just just have a glance next time you're near a harbor where are the muscles and limpits growing on the wall anymore.
Where are they? They're gone. Yeah. Um, and so water pollution, obviously
we're depending on drawing in sea water. Um, and the amount of filtration it

(35:54):
takes and the amount of work we have to do to make that water even possible for lobster babies to live in is
scandalously worrying. How does that uh how does that translate to you filtering it and then putting
them into dirty water after? Because your water, if you're filtering it so much, you're making it cleaner and then
putting them into shitty water. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, the it's it's it's

(36:20):
questionable, but the the the the main issues that the lobsters will face
as a result of this is that it's it without going into too many technicalities about it, it basically
makes them struggle to malt, right? So like for example insecticide
that's used on the land and again it's part of an industry. I'm not you're not saying anyone's doing anything wrong but

(36:43):
the insecticide that's sprayed on the land to protect crops as the exact the
way it works is to stop insects molting and breathing through their skin. So as that washes into the ocean it has
exactly the same effect on any laral invertebrate crustation out there. M so and eventually it dissolves and

(37:04):
dilutes to a certain point but you know um this is the whole thing I was talking
to you about earlier when we were talking you know can the sea provide us with all this food and simultaneously be
dumped full of rubbish all the time and you know I think eventually talk me through the talk me through the
ladder lauder tip scenario well like this we're talking about the

(37:27):
impact of uh sewage overflow, heavy industry by the coast, you know, a
lot of other stuff that can have a negative impact. And and
it's yeah it's just as we put more pressure as we're trying to draw more money out of that account of food out of
the bank account if you will that just give us more more more the

(37:51):
those impactors or those negative impactors have more
they're more prevalent because we're putting more pressure on the resource if that do you know what I mean? Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. You know, go back 50 years. You know, I remember when I was I'm from
up north. Yeah. I remember a time when you couldn't go in the sea of Blackpool. You don't [ __ ] in your fridge, do you?

(38:15):
This is it, you know. And this is like this is why I think, you know, marine reserves and that kind of thing are a
really good idea. And they are, you know, there's there's challenges there too because, you know, as a if you want
to set up a like the government wants to establish a marine reserve where makes sense, that's your savings account.
Everything's left alone there and the overspill goes around and everyone can

(38:37):
everyone can uh you know go about their fishing and all that other stuff. But what what in reality to set up a marine
reserve is happening. I feel I might just point out at this point that this is my opinion and not that of the
National Lobster Hatchery, but you're going, "Oh, that's a really good productive area to see. Brilliant.
Right. Let's protect that." Then you're always going to have opposition to that.

(39:00):
Like the fisherman will be like, "Hang on. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Calm down. I've
been fishing there all these years. Why are you shutting it now?" Oh, because it's really healthy and productive.
Right. Okay. So what would you do? What would I do in that situation? How would you remove that opposition to these
marine reserves from industry? Build them where they don't fish. Simple

(39:24):
as that. So create habitat, you know, create habitat. And there's a few few wonderful reserves
around the world that there are and they're great. Thriving. They are thriving. And and and because they're thriving,
the the outskirts are thriving, too. which means that actually the the the
places where people are fishing is are starting to thrive and and

(39:46):
it will it will eventually will eventually happen you know you know it's like you've just got to
wait for that payback period you know like the farmers don't plant their crop and then the next morning they're going
where's my corn where's my corn it's like you know it'll take time to develop and then at the end of the day you'll have a
good business but what I'm saying is that the the cons this is where the conservation and the fishing can work

(40:08):
very well together and should be more in tune with each other that what marine
people in marine conservation and what fishermen want is more fish, dependable,
reliable sources of fish. those fish need good environment to live in to
reproduce well and you know so yeah it's it's it's that whole merrygoround and I

(40:32):
think that yeah for me the the fishermen could be the biggest ally in marine
conservation if they're included in those conversations
those conversations those conversations well it's like you know yeah tell me um can we is a big big on this

(40:52):
one. Can we sustainably and ethically put lobster on our plate
sustainably? Yes. Um, how do you kill a lobster is always going to be the big
question. How do we kill a lobster? Now, I say how do we kill a lobster because a

(41:13):
lot of like we there's a lot been a lot of noise recently about lobsters. I
don't know me being me being in the industry probably it's been more of a thing than it might be to not in the
industry but um couple of years ago now nearly two years ago now the lobsters were declared
as a sentient being by the government. So they're self-aware. They can

(41:37):
remember, you know, lobsters, for example, two male lobsters, if they get into a bit of argui
and see each other a few weeks later, they remember each other and the loser defers and they the guy who won the
fight walks past. Is it? So they remember those social interactions and and have these weird dynamics going on
that, you know, like most things, you know, I've always found that not surprising. You know, even a fly doesn't

(42:02):
fly into a bonfire because it knows it'll burn itself, you know, it's like Yeah. Yeah. Um
Yes. So, that is always a question like how do you kill a lobster? And I like I said, how do you kill a lobster is
difficult because they don't really have a central brain like we do? They have different collections of nerves, but
they still then manage to exhibit all these uh characteristics that you would

(42:27):
say that's quite an intelligent animal. Um, so as we all I'm sure are aware,
lobsters are usually just tossed in a pan of boiling water. Yeah. Yeah. That is, you know, yeah, the debate on
that is is up for everyone to make their own decision on. I feel, you know, that how
else can you kill a lobster? I mean, there are other things out there like there's a there somebody out there

(42:52):
trying to promote this um electrical stunning machine for lobsters, which would that work? I mean, I I mean,
that would mean everyone would have to buy a stunning machine, was it? Yes. Um, but I mean, I don't know what
research they've conducted on does that kill a lobster like um or anything like that, but yeah. Um,

(43:16):
if it stuns them, you can, you know, I I don't eat them, but if I was personally
going to eat a lobster, I'd make sure it was nice and comfy. Lobsters like to be under. You can
transport them out. They they're fine out of water. You find I've found lobsters in cracks in the rocks at low
tide just sat waiting for them. So they're fine out of water. But make them you know just have a bit of respect for you know you're going to

(43:40):
do that. Just like right well lobsters winter temperatures they can easily go down to eight seven eight even
six degrees centigrade. So put them under a nice salt water towel on a tray.
Bang them in your fridge cool down over a few hours. any of you going to eat them? Yeah, I would I would do that from
that state because in the principle that from six degrees to boiling water, it's

(44:04):
probably going to be dead before it comes around. But I'm sure people will be saying that's total rubbish, Ben, you know, but
like I said, I'm no expert on the ethical side of how do you kill a lobster? Personally, I wouldn't bother. Think they bring too many benefits.
So, sustainably, yes. But sustainability, yes.
that's up to you. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You know, like Yeah. I think I think you

(44:28):
can work on that. Um balance certain things like that on your own. You know, we eat lots of animals, people, you
know, but cow is kind of like a person in the biological sense that it's got a brain,
a spine. So, we know that quickly knock it through the brain with captive bolt,
it's got, you know. Yeah. Yeah, but when it comes to a bit something a

(44:53):
bit more alien and a lobster is proper alien, isn't it? Oh, mate. Honestly, it's unbelievable.
Like they're like dinosaurs, aren't they? I had no idea when I started work at the lobster archery how this subject could
entertain me for this length of time. Honestly, like they you say they're like
dinosaurs. Yes, they are. They, you know, like one of the my favorite like bit about lobsters and the bits you

(45:17):
learn about them, you know, they they've got they can they taste with their feet so they can find food, but they don't
biologically age. So lobsters are no worse off at 70 as they were when they
were 20. What? Like deterioration wise? Doesn't happen. So does that mean eating them at six

(45:37):
years is is the same as eating them when they're 60 years? kind of.
So, because they they live to what age? If if they were left to their own devices, what would they live to? 60,
70? No. No way. No. Hundreds of years old, for sure. Yeah. Hundreds. Yeah. Like I said,
there's no reason for a lobster to die from biological decay.

(46:02):
There's no reason for it. That's just blown me away. Like, yeah. Now, why don't we find a
thousand-y old 12- foot lobsters? Who's to say given the size of the sea
that there aren't some of those out there? But the reality of a lobster's life is that periodically,
and depending on its size, that can be anything between six months and two, three years. They eventually have to

(46:26):
shed their shell to grow and they grow the whole life. So, if you've got a a
big old lobster, you know, let's speculate. You got like a three four foot lobster, which is within the realms of what we know to have been caught in
Cornwall over the last century. How big? Three foot. Four foot. Yeah. Four. Yeah. What? Yeah. Massive. I mean, I would

(46:46):
conservatively estimate something that size would be at least 200 years old. Um,
where was I going? Yeah. So, the shedding of the shell. So if you've got a massive lobster like that and it has
to shed its shell, when the lobster sheds its shell, it is soft and I mean it's like a wet leather shammy cloth for
about 36 hours and they start to reharden and absorb calcium and then

(47:09):
when they're able to because some of the first parts that reharden are the mouth parts. They eat their old exoskeleton to
reh harvest the calcium. Um that's clever. But in those that's the danger zone
though, you know. Because the bigger a lobster is, the fewer places you have to hide while you're soft,
of course. So eventually you'll be there molted, sat on the seabed going, you can't fit in any of these holes. A dogfish will be

(47:34):
like, "Oh, that looks nice and tasty." And it can't even move really. Yeah. So they just lying eating alive, I would
imagine. Oh, which is a very, you know, but that is part of it. But yeah, if you had if you
in principle if you had a a nice fish tank uh with a you know you could pass that
lobster on to your great great great grandchildren in that you know that's incredible. It's unbelievable. And not only just the

(47:58):
size, it's like the fact that the female reproduction in lobsters is with them all their life. You got
like hundred year old plus lobsters having the best babies of their life. It's crazy. Crazy. It is honestly like
some just been thrown here from somewhere else. They're so bizarre biologically.
Incredible. Incredible. So tell me, Ben, what gives you hope?

(48:23):
What gives me hope is that I think that and I mentioned before about taking the
kids rock pooling back years ago at Blue Reef and stuff. I think it's trying to hook into how do you keep that
enthusiasm for most kids are like interested in nature and then they find But life beats it out of us, doesn't it?
It's like, "Oh, I'd love to care about that, but the rent's gone up 300 quid this month,

(48:46):
you know, the distractions of modern life." But it's how do you keep people invested in in caring just enough to
make decisions that they realize they have the power to, you know, I'm not
going to do that or I'm going to choose this and and drive those things because we do live in a market driven world
these days. And, you know, even at governmental level, if things are selling, that's what we're

(49:09):
going to do, you know. So it's like, you know, I think we you and I before
this we started recording, we were talking about decisions and telling people you can't, you know, if you're
telling people what to do, there's usually a bit of anger. Why? Why are you telling me that? Why miss you
better than me? Whereas if you can get them invested to show them how great something is and

(49:32):
go, you can help with this. Yeah. People love people love to be involved. Yeah. They love to be involved and
rightly so. You know, if we're all aware of things and we can help each other out, let's help each other out. And
yeah, totally. And and and I think that hope is that kids are still interested in nature.
And the the challenge is how do we get that through to adulthood? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How do we get people to still think, you

(49:56):
know, no, I'm sorry. Yeah. All right. I know you're going to add an extra 1% to my pension, but I'd rather that my kids
could walk around in a forest and swim in the sea. Yeah. rather than you know worry about
about the other stuff which let's be honest is all invented by our own society don't

(50:17):
you know the reality of the world is what we need to keep people focused on and I think we're losing
some of that tangibility you know there is hope there is always hope
there is hope so we're going to move on to uh to your evidence now so you've brought along uh four pieces of evidence
I'm going going to invite you to talk for a minute on each uh Alex is over there with the

(50:41):
bell. He's quite eager with the bell. I I I like to ramble, so it's a good job we have the bell. He's quite eager with that bell, and
he's mean with it. You know, if you're halfway through his conversation, he'll bang that bell. Round one. There we go.
So, your first uh piece of evidence is uh a book called End of the Line, and
it's by Charles Clover. Yes. this this was one of the most impactful books I ever read in my life.

(51:06):
Now it's the guy is a journalist um and
he just sort of through his life got involved in you know covering certain stories. I think he worked wrote for the
Independent for a long time and did other stuff and it got into he got into
looking at fishing and and what's involved in that and and and it's basically just a very very candid

(51:32):
account of his point of view and how wasteful fishing became
in in that time that you know we forget that even 50 years ago sustainability
really didn't factor. There was there was plenty of plenty for everyone but you know since then there
is twice the amount of people on the planet so we have to think about that a little more you know and yeah right on queue

(52:00):
happy with that he's like I say he's eager with it so the next one is uh shark water and it's
a documentary by Rob Stewart yeah again just another inspirational person who was uh keen as a youngster
was keen on diving and filing things in the sea and basically brought the world's attention to one of the most

(52:22):
extreme things ever which is the shark fin trade which was is basically decimating the oceans. Sharks would sit
at the top of the food web. They control like lobsters we were talking about earlier in certain ways but everything
below sharks depends on them to maintain a healthy population and shark finning
is cruel and wasteful and has no place in the modern world I think and he brought that to the

(52:45):
world's attention. Um, and yeah, it was very inspirational. Sadly, he's no longer with us. Um,
but yeah, I think he's left a permanent mark on the world. Good timing. Good timing. And, um,
that's available on Prime, I think, at the moment. Yeah, Prime. And, you know, it's, you'll find it's on a, you know, you can get
the the book anywhere, but I I definitely recommend watching that. And, yeah, Shark Finning. That was a a

(53:10):
strange old uh story around that. That's interesting to look into. So the your next one is The Secret Life of Lobsters
by Trevor Corson. Yeah, this is a great book. So when I started at the lobster hatchery, the
manager at the time issued everyone with a copy of this book and I said and I read it and I was like mind blown mind
blown just just about how one let's be honest quite weird animal can be so

(53:34):
interested and and the and how it's affected societies all up and down the east coast of Canada, America, Cornwall
around the world, how these animals live and and and what they need from us and what Yeah. just that whole, you know,
like we were talking about the immortality and and all that stuff. All these bas all those facts first came to
me through this mindbending book and then you're like doing a bit of follow up on it like, "Oh yeah, that's right.

(53:59):
Oh my god, this is crazy. We're swimming with aliens." Yeah,
I think um yeah, I think out of all of the the podcasts you've done so far, um
learning about lobsters, both before you came on and with you in the show this afternoon, has has I've had so many

(54:21):
moments where I've gone, what what it's like it's just surreal, isn't it? Like Yeah. And you know, right down to what
they look like, you know. Anyway, so your next next one this is um uh Captain
Paul Watson Foundation which is like a conservation organization.
Conservation organization. Yeah. So I think Paul Paul Watson for me has been a constant inspiration and and

(54:45):
personally he comes you know he he's he's quite I would say quite a selfless person. He's all for the cause. you
know, he originally was the founder of G Green Peace,
um, which was much more into, you know, remember the seals and all that stuff back in the 80s. He was directly
intervening in those hunts. Um, Greenpeace became massive. They didn't

(55:07):
want him anymore. He was a bit dangerous. So, he set up Sea Sheeperd. The history repeated itself. He got, you
know, the organization became so big, he became financial liability. Yeah. So, they got rid of him again. And now
he's set up his own uh his own Neptune's Navy. Um and he's he's you know some
people don't agree with his methods. I but I think he brings the conversation to the table. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And exactly.

(55:33):
What's that conversation he's bringing to the table? Just he's bringing he's bringing that
we've got to stop this stuff. I'm not you know not some sort of lot of campaigning and lots. Yeah. you know, not getting stuck into
the the the politics of it all and be like, "Whatever, this has got to stop, you know,
and worth having a look at that. I had a look at the Yeah. Quick glance at the Instagram if you can get over the visceral reaction

(55:57):
to a lot of what he's showing." Yeah. You understand what's going on. Sometimes that's important though.
Yeah. So, um, we're going to move on to your top tips now. Same uh same situation. We're going to give you give you a
minute to talk about each. Yeah, you got ego Alex on the uh on the bell there still.
So the your first top tip think about what you eat. Yeah. I think for people just think

(56:19):
about the choices you make. It's like I say to my kids, you know, you're making them a nice roast dinner on a Sunday for
example and they're like pulling the It's like, man, that's a chicken there.
Don't waste stuff. You know, I think that was one thing at brought up at one point who again inspirational to me, but
one of his things was don't don't not have what you want. Don't waste stuff. Don't just leave your car in. Don't just

(56:43):
like cook so much meat that you nobody can eat it, you know. Don't waste stuff. And that goes a long
way to helping us, you know, become more sustainable. Yeah. Yeah. Just understand that the effort and
what's required in to provide that food for yourself and be thankful for it. Yeah. Exactly. And be thankful for it.
Um, this is interesting because we've had this come up a couple of times and I'm

(57:06):
interested to know your thoughts on it is uh, think about what you flush.
Well, yeah, think about what you flush because you know we hear a lot about so it's bills especially around Cornwall.
Most of us spend time in the sea. Everyone's very aware of that. But, you know, on the other side of that is like
just think about what products you're buying. Like I remember a few years ago there was a product you could buy to stop your leings in the toilet from

(57:31):
smelling. Yeah. What was that? Stinky thing that you sprayed or something. Yeah.
And it's like what is in that? Yeah. Does anyone consult the water companies or what's possible to deal with before
we just buy products from the supermarket and flush it down the toilet? Yeah. Um and some of these chemicals will be,
you know, it's got a massive hazard sign on the back. don't what does it say on the back of some

(57:55):
like toilet cleaners lasting environmental impact with a fish floating upside down and a black cross
through it. Yeah. But it's like but where between someone thinking that's a good product to it being allowed as who who where's
where's the regulation in that? Yeah. Interesting. And the um Yeah. It's it's it's like going back to

(58:16):
what you're saying about the pesticides, isn't it? Yeah. Um, but you put them, you know, they're there for a reason.
Yeah. To kill stuff, to kill germs. Yeah. And a germ is just a small I always worry about that with the, you
know, a lot of those adverts kills 99.99% of germs. It's like, well, that 01% that survives is going to be really

(58:36):
tough. Yeah. So, um, this was an interesting one. I'm
keen to know what you're saying with this. Wash cars at a car wash rather than at home. Now, this is this is just
a little personal. I don't want people to feel guilty about cleaning their cars, but we're talking about little
things people can do. And most grids lead to a river nearby. Mhm. They don't generally all go to the

(59:01):
sewer. So, like, you know, be aware that you if you're washing your car and
there's soap and detergent everywhere, that's probably going to end up in a stream not far from you. And that has a
detrimental impact. Some countries like Germany for you can't it's illegal. Okay.
You have to wash your car. So that's going into the streams, it's going into the rivers, it's going into the water table and eventually that's

(59:24):
going into the sea. Yeah. That's almost worse than flushing it down the toilet where it's going
Well, not almost worse, but Yeah. But yeah, it's it's it's definitely to be thought about. And
again, I just don't it's like well it's it's gone down the grid. It's dealt with. But and and to be
fair as consumers should we even have to think about that but it should be that s you know if you want to make an

(59:47):
immediate impact I I would advise that that is quite a good one. That's brilliant. So um the next one and
I love this one. Tip your cap if you see someone trying to have a positive impact.
Yeah. So like I think it's by default most people's again I'm

(01:00:08):
not excluding myself when I say most people I'm people that it's quite easy to think like
straight away of something oh well to try and understand what they're doing usually we go into the critique they be this the critic of what's happening
whereas you know someone's just trying to do something nice you might you not even think it's necessary but just you know
acknowledge that someone's trying to that can go a long way can't Yeah,

(01:00:34):
you know, that old saying goes around too much. You never know what people are dealing with these days anymore, but
doesn't take any effort to go, "Oh, nice one." You know, well done for trying. You know, I see where you're coming
from. You know, I don't have to agree with your solution. Yeah. But I your motives are are good. So, all
the best to you, you know. Good on you. And your number five is be

(01:00:59):
mindful of food miles. Yes, food miles is is an easy one. I
mean, we're very lucky in Cornwall. You can go to the sheds everywhere with farmers produce in you can buy if you want. I mean, but even you go to
supermarket because most of us ain't got time to trace around to the sheds in the back lanes of St. V. But, you know, just
just have a glance, you know, look at just be aware of where your food comes from. I think again we we've mentioned

(01:01:23):
earlier that you know the the most ridiculous scenario of this is is is that I've seen personally was shrimp
caught caught in the North Atlantic shipped to Thailand to be shelled sent
they were sent somewhere else in Eastern Europe to be packaged and then back to the UK to be sold.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's mental. And I was saying not only is it mental environmentally but how is it even profitable to do

(01:01:48):
that? No. Exactly. I was saying to you Someone somewhere along the line is getting really exploited. I was saying to you about the apples,
wasn't it? They were sending apples from the UK to I think South Africa to be sprayed with some kind of wax to
preserve them longer and then bought back to the UK for how is that even a thing, you know? So just it's like just you don't have to

(01:02:08):
find the solution, but just ask the seller the question now and then like if you go to a restaurant, oh where'd you get your fish from?
What? Like just where who'd you buy it off? because you know all those wholesalers around call have all got
sustainability messages and things they're doing on their websites that the restaurant will be buying from. So
you're not going to try and find John's boat down in pens that you know not that level of detail but you know

(01:02:31):
which wholesalers all told you this you know and also we we had um Pete the chip on
um a couple of weeks ago and he's uh he talked of the uh wildlife trusts good
fish guide. Yeah. Um, and there's a couple of things like that where you can go and have a look which fish are sustainable, which
fish aren't, etc., etc. So, and I think I do you remember there was a there was a thing a few years ago Hugh

(01:02:54):
is it Hugh Fley Whittento? He did a thing. It was called the big fish fight, right? And it was all about that and um you've
got this is where I'm talking about with sustainability and that everyone having the same approach can't always work. So
I think one of the things he promoted was mackerel are very underrated in this country and we should perhaps eat more of them.
Six months later it was like don't eat anymore. It's like this we don't you know and I

(01:03:20):
think you know some of that is trade you know trading standards these days require you specify what fish you're
selling. How many species of marine fish do the British public generally know? Cod had
it. Five. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. But and they and they bring in 50 50
different types of fish down. So I don't I don't I don't think all that's just the customers saying I don't know. I'm not gonna try that. It's it's

(01:03:43):
that you have to state what fish you're selling. Yeah. Yeah. And if you put you know something random
people I don't even know what that is. So yeah. So we had uh there we go. I've uh now
lost my last one. Tell us how we can support you. What? Me personally, send checks to No,

(01:04:05):
no crypto. Yeah, no. But um the like the the lobster
hatchery, it's a charity, so you know, like come and have a look if you're in the area. Come and have a look. But we
also have plenty of content on YouTube. You know, there's plenty of ways to to support what we're doing. And you know,
all our money is spent on doing the work. You know, there's no one take making profit out of the National Lobster Hatchery. It's all to be

(01:04:31):
reinvested in trying to spread the word and come up with more facilities where we could have another hatchery on the
south coast still and and try and do more. Look at crabs. I don't know how many fishermanmen you
know, but they'll all tell you crab have gone. Yeah. Um why is this up for debate? Um you
know, get some crabs looked at, you know, in this whole is that on the cards for another

(01:04:55):
It's something we're looking at. Yeah. So this autumn we've got a what call feasibility study
looking on a small scale can we apply similar techniques to the crab and
excellent what we can we can do about that but yeah I think for you know the lobster for the lobster hatchery the best thing
people could do is either come and see what we're doing or at least visit our website and have a read

(01:05:18):
so website lobstery.com.co.uk.co.uk Yeah. And and on and on and on and on
and on and on and on and on and on and on and our so lost social uh media handles is Padtolobster.
And that's uh Instagram, Facebook. Yeah. And and YouTube. Tik Tok as well, I believe.
Tik Tok. The youngsters at the hatchery are putting me on Tik Tok, which is is going down really well.

(01:05:41):
Brilliant. You're just sitting there flicking a little bit. Yeah. You know, I've already been told off by my kids who are now 14 and 16
going, "Dad, why are you on I I don't know how that happened."
Amazing. So, what's one thing that we can all start doing today to create a better tomorrow and help us find a
greener room? I just think, you know, just be a little nicer to each other, you know, and and

(01:06:06):
and just just understand that, you know, I think people aren't inherently bad
just cuz you don't know circumstances. You don't know what what's going on. Just, you know, and if you can help
somebody, point them in the right directions nicely. That's all it is, you know. Just there's
no judgment. just pass, you know, pass on what you think is right without the expectation that it

(01:06:32):
is right. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? This is what I do because I feel this is right. Doesn't mean that you should or anyone else
should, but you've got your own sense of what's right in the world. And I think as long as we're coming from what we
believe to be true, then that's all we can do. Well, Ben, I
could literally chat to you all day long and um I'm I'm mind blown by some of those things about the the say I've

(01:06:58):
really enjoyed putting all that together in my brain in like a linear formation. It's usually like
So, thank you so much for what you're doing for the planet. Thank you so much for what you're doing for the people and
thank you very much for coming on the show this afternoon. My pleasure. Brilliant, mate. Thanks very much.
That's it for this episode of Searching for a Green Room. We'd love to hear your thoughts. Let us know what you think,

(01:07:22):
who you'd like to hear from, any topics you want us to cover. Drop us a comment.
Don't forget to like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. See you next time.