S1E3: Ai, ethics and the environmental equation - With Nigel Gooding

Nigel Gooding, a data privacy advisor and doctoral student, discussed his journey from Exeter to Cornwall, his business in data protection, and his doctoral research on sustainable business in Cornwall's natural landscapes. He highlighted the challenges of balancing environmental sustainability with economic viability, particularly in tourism and farming. Nigel emphasised the importance of AI in fraud detection and data privacy, advocating for marginal gains in environmental protection. He recommended resources like "The Coming Wave" by Mustafa Suleyman and "Cannibals with Forks" by John Elkington for deeper insights into AI and business sustainability.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
what is the environmental cost of our digital lives from the data we store to
the AI we trust what happens behind the screens we use every day hey I'm Curly
Steve and I'm searching for a greener room today we're here with Nigel Gooding
nigel welcome to the show [Music]

(00:28):
hi Nigel welcome to the show thank you very much Stephen thank you for inviting me well it's nice to have you here yeah
it's very very lovely to be here well let's uh let's rewind you're a West Country boy yes I am tell me a little
bit about it yes I am i'm I I I was brought up in Exit um and uh and I spent
my main mainly my childhood up until 181 19 in Exat and um uh my parents were

(00:53):
were my father was a rowman my mother worked in a baker she was also cleaner at the university at next to university
and uh quite a gentle upbringing in a in a in an environment of which was close
to the sea close to the moors close to the um the open spaces we lived in uh council estate on the edge of exit and
uh all our summers would be spent um rambling through the woods and the the

(01:17):
fields and the the bogs and the and the rivers and the streams um catching tadpoles and doing things most probably
that I wouldn't dream of doing now but um in terms of my environmental credentials climbing trees and and just
having fun really so yeah I was um very lucky very lucky um so um and um
although I employment wise made me move away um for about 20 years I came back in 2011 so I've been back in the West

(01:42):
Country uh since 2011 so and what what happened in 2011 what what brought you
back oh well quite simply I got divorced so okay there we go and my children were growing up and they were they they live
in Exodus so um I decided to move back full-time and I realized that I could actually do most of my um uh my business
then because 2011 we was had connectivity and and we were doing stuff that I could actually live in Devon and

(02:06):
actually commute to um the work that I was doing at the time so um so yeah so 2011 really was the the catalyst for
coming back and uh I'm unlikely to move now again I don't think from the West Country fair play fair play so tell me a
little bit about your business what is it you actually do um yes so the data privacy advisory service I set up in 2017 really to capture a bit of the

(02:27):
market when the data protection and uh information governance laws were changing gdpr was changing and there was
greater emphasis on that uh and I set it up and we provide data protection and consultancy services something called
data protection officer uh services and uh training uh information security
training information governance training and cyber security training and AI uh and um and so we offer consultancy and

(02:52):
also training as well so it's a it's a multifaceted business in data protection
data privacy information governance cyber security and AI uh we're based in
the um in exit just outside in a uh in the Holden Hills a very lovely area and
um and uh we have uh uh about uh 15 16 staff now from a zero start so that's

(03:15):
fantastic that's what we do yeah yeah and tell me about uh sustainability because you're also doing doctoral
studies as well aren't you tell me about that yeah um I've always been quite entrepreneurial um I spent the first 13
years of my working life working in the railway industry i was a graduate management traininee to the British run management training scheme and did
various management positions and when privatization appeared in 199596 I took uh redundancy and then

(03:40):
decided to go and work for myself so I've always worked for myself always been quite entrepreneurial but but I've always been interested in um the
challenge that we have in certainly in the southwest of building sustainable business in in very in outstanding areas
of outstanding natural beauty uh and um and so it was always a a challenge to me about how we could sustain long-term

(04:04):
employment growth and also long-term sustainable business in terms of environmental perspective uh but also at
the same time um respect that the nature and the environment and the wonderful landscape that we actually live in so um
my my doctorate is um my doctorate research is based upon Cornwall natural landscapes which is in Cormal uh Cormal

(04:26):
is quite unique because it has 12 uh sections rather than one Cormal as a a
whole per se is not part of the natural landscape so uh so it's looking at how Cornwall natural landscape is able to
develop within their um within their business plans uh sustainable business in those 12 environmental protected

(04:46):
areas in Cornwall fantastic and so uh that keeps you on
your toes all of that that keeps you quite busy it's a bit of a challenge really because um clearly they're not 12
contiguous areas they're all 12 disparate areas and all of which has different stakeholders have different
objectives are different landscapes if you take for example the area south of St Ives and pen the old Penwit district

(05:11):
uh is different than the H heartland district which is up in up in the north uh north of uh Morrento and and towards
um between bifford and and be for example if you take the Rosland Peninsula that's different for example
uh than the um than the Tamar Valley so so it is very very interesting because you have that different landscapes

(05:31):
different environmental challenges different uh um challenges in terms of stakeholder management and those people
who are involved in that so it is a it is actually quite an interesting um an
interesting challenge because um what's not known about Cormal outstanding area of natural beauty is really that uh the
in 1948 um the proposal was the Cormal national landscapes the outstanding area

(05:56):
of natural beauty should be a national park such as Xmore Dartmore or um the New Forest or the Lakes uh or the North
Yorkshire um national park and um and uh because it wasn't a contiguous area
because the local government setup was quite different then um it was um deemed that it didn't quite meet the challenges
um that the other parks did and it never became a national park so so the history behind it is actually quite interesting

(06:22):
and uh certainly um you know you have to go south of St Ives to see the the mining heritage that exists for
example uh and and certainly um the the uh the mining heritage didn't
necessarily um support areas of outstanding natural beauty and clearly outstanding of of natural beauty but in
itself that heritage has become outstanding area of natural beauty and has become the the draw that that that

(06:48):
Cormal has for people you the steam houses and the arsenic works and the the mines and the uh and the evidence of
industrial heritage is really important to providing part of that so yeah it is
it is a great topic um hopefully hopefully I shall finish in the next three or four years but um that's the plan yeah that's the plan yeah yeah
excellent excellent so um so tell me uh why Cornwall uh yeah

(07:14):
why Cornwall well I always believe in life that that things happen for a
reason um so uh there there are always um actions and consequences and um and I
was very lucky that um two years ago I I did a a post-graduate certificate in higher education at Farmouth University
uh and was able to um uh which is a university lecturers uh qualification

(07:37):
the same as a teachers uh qualification and I really enjoyed Fmouth University i really enjoyed the smallness of it the
richness of it the people of it the the learning style of it and then um it was clear that I had a heritage uh I had a
heritage link in my own family with Cornwall my grandmother was born in St louis Workhouse in 1898 the 4th of April

(07:58):
1898 and uh uh to an 18-year-old mother who was sent away to have the the baby
and uh and I've always been attracted I think to to having a heritage of either being WelshIrish or or Celtic heritage
or or Cornish and uh and that was a unique uh a unique fact that that I thought that's quite interesting but of
course you know I'm like most people who were first attracted to Cormal you came here with a bucket in spade when you

(08:22):
were five or six and never wanted to leave and and I always remember seeing the sun set um over Godi lighthouse when I was a
child when we were staying in a very small chalet uh which we most probably couldn't afford now in the 70s at Guian
um but to stay there but um yeah and I always remember that I it was a magical

(08:42):
place to meion is my and God is my magical place in terms of where I always
go back to so um so I was very lucky that uh at the time um the leadership
team in Cormal Business School I knew I'd work with them at Plymouth Marjon University and uh and uh all of a sudden
um I saw an opportunity for a PhD particularly around outstanding area of natural beauties haven't been done for

(09:09):
new research and that that that dilemma about how can we develop sustainable business in outstanding area of natural
beauty because by definition both are two diametrically opposite each Uh and um and so I like the supervisor
i'd worked uh with him before uh and so everything fell into place really young so so I had just this holistic view
Steve that I could spend my mid60s just just um sitting on clifftops and watching sunsets and so um so there was

(09:35):
a bit of romanticism behind it but now I'm actually doing the work then perhaps you know I I should give myself a swift
kick at the backside and think "Come on mate you know it's not always about romanticism you got to do some work here." at some point you've got to write
80,000 words about this that is new research so um so that's why I call them yeah yeah so uh I've got hundreds of
questions for you we might have to have more than one show but um first I'm going to go in with um

(10:01):
we spoke before about um you said um to me earlier about uh keep attacking can
you explain that to me why that's your motto yeah I think I think that so so 20 years ago this this year this year I had
a I discovered um head and neck cancer and I had a quite a brutal sort of six seven months of of treatment had

(10:22):
um radiotherapy to your head um unable to to eat properly fed by nasal tube and
and those sort of things and I always felt that um I I I'm I'm never one to to dramatize um you know when people having
a fight against cancer and that sort of thing because I don't think it is a fight i think that um but I always think that you should look forward in your
life rather than backwards in your life because I saw some things you know when I was working in that environment um which not working sorry was was was

(10:49):
staying in that environment and being hospitalized and that sort of thing that um um that that really made me think
about life is very short and and there are very few opportunities we get so when you see it just keep attacking and
and just move forward uh really and one of my famous sayings is really that you know if you face the sun the shadows
will look will be behind you rather in front of you and so and and so I'm always uh and particularly if you face

(11:12):
the sun at Guyian Towers while the sun's setting it's always behind you so that's good that's a beautiful place to be when
the sun's setting isn't it i might mention it more than once Steve so tell me um let's let's just rewind to
the uh sustainability and uh areas of outstanding natural beauty how what are we doing about that and how are we uh
improving um how are we making sure that it's they're being looked after so that's a really good point now so

(11:37):
sustainable it to me has two folks one the environmental sustainability so making sure that businesses within that
environment uh either present or new are able to operate in a sustainable
environmentally sustainable way and then secondly sustainable are able to sustain themselves more than four months a year
because I think that's absolutely vital because otherwise if they don't you're going to have a landscape which is barren uh with with no people uh with no

(12:02):
support and 75% of the outstanding area of natural beauty the Cornish natural
cornal natural landscape as it's now called is agricultural land so so clearly so 75% of of that is is
agricultural um so it's really important um uh that uh that we look at both
factors the research looks at both factors and when we're looking at sustainable business we're looking at sustainable farming and agriculture and

(12:26):
what that looks like we're looking at sustainable tourism and what that looks like uh and um and and when we're
looking at sustainable um businesses i.e what what lasts more than four months is that what good looks
like so the whole idea of the research would be to to do the research and look at not only Cornwall but areas other

(12:47):
areas of the UK but also around the world of national parks for example who have been able to facilitate sustainable
businesses in business growth within um areas of outstanding natural beauty and protected landscapes and and put a
framework to say this is what good looks like so if you're if you're if you're looking for what good looks like in
terms of sustainable business a framework these are the key things that

(13:11):
you need in that environment to do so so therefore you most probably need access to uh funding you'd need access to
housing you'd need access to a workforce you need access to transport and
communications whether it be technology communications whether it be road rail or bus infrastructure um and and with
everything that actually comes with it so um so it's a it's an overarching piece that I think that at the end of

(13:37):
the four years I will be able to say if you want to develop sustainable businesses in outstanding areas of
outstanding natural beauty these are the criteria that you need in place as as
building blocks really to be able to facilitate that and in Cornwall one of the ways that that happens is that the
Cormal Natural Landscape which is an organization uh part of English Natural Landscape um used to be so Cornwall

(14:02):
natural landscape renamed from Cormal outstanding area of natural beauty last year uh the the previous government um
affected that change and as a result of that uh they have to put together a five-year business plan of which they
have to show how they uh manage sustainable businesses within the area
and so that will become the core text as such so that if you said to me what's your core text that you would default to

(14:27):
well it would be the Cornish national landscapes business plan because that's the key driver for them to be able to
deliver sustainable business so I'm assessing not in a audit way but I'm assessing
whether that business plan is robust enough to enable um sustainable businesses to thrive in areas of

(14:48):
outstanding natural beauty so it's it's it's the starting point so and you say uh farming and tourism um are there any
other smaller um businesses that are that are being looked at so at the
moment no at the moment but no but but when I search about tourism you know I will bring in the hospitality but also
the ancillary businesses that that sit us alongside tourism so not only hospitality you know not only your your

(15:13):
you know your pubs and your cafes but also um what's good you know near to you and dear to you your surf schools and
and your your pony trekking and and all those ancillary businesses that and presumably businesses that support
tourism as well so you're you're building businesses in building plumbers your electricians your doctor's
surgeries yeah you know your um all those ancillary exercises or people that

(15:38):
actually um you know um support um those businesses in those protected landscapes
yes correct yeah and how is how is farming in Cornwall um I think farming is tough anywhere in the UK at the
moment i think I think the challenge is that uh um uh clearly um they've had a
couple of shocks um the first shock was really uh about withdrawing from the European Union and I think it's fair to

(16:02):
say that um the the safety net that they provided um disappeared and and and that
safety net was backfilled or attempted to be backfilled by by government but
that hasn't happened and as a result of that um then that becomes a challenge and and and if you say to farmers for an
example that we want to act in a sustainable environmentally friendly way then yeah you know farmers are are in

(16:28):
favor of that most in farmers you know there bad eggs and everything but but most you know the vast majority of far
farmers are you know are in farming because they want to um have a sustainable um way of living and and
landscape that they operate under because better landscape better outputs better you know uh uh profits for their
business because ultimately they are running it for business there aren't many farmers who do it for philanthropy reasons um it's a tough environment and

(16:55):
and and clearly governmental support and support from um schemes need to be uh
maintained and put in place um um from that and clearly then um as well that
the farming you know has a current challenge in terms of um uh employment
so we have we have um an aging population in Cormal and also the southwest we don't necessarily have the

(17:19):
migration that we had um five six years ago in terms of it so people to be able to work we don't have a people coming
from abroad we don't have we don't have that migration in place and and and no
disrespect to local people but we just haven't got the younger workforce who who a can work or b want to work on you
know and um is it fair to say that part of that problem is second homes and not enough accommodation and not enough

(17:44):
spaces for people so so one of the things that my research wants to look at is the social economic points about uh
about if we look at farming for example agriculture even hospitality for example we look at tourism uh some of the
challenges that that these areas might have and and clearly from our perspective in outstanding area of
natural beauty whether it be East Devon um which is another outstanding area of natural because the Tamar Valley uh or

(18:10):
Cornwall natural landscape or corn outstanding area of natural beauty corn natural landscapes we have an aging
population because it's a nice place to live yeah for sure and and by definition aging populations are cashri um have the
um tend to be more well off uh tend not to have to work in Plymouth Exit Truru
Red Ruth Kborn or Nuki tend not to have to to work in those environments and therefore um can afford to live in those

(18:37):
environments and as a result you have an issue on supply and demand and of course in those outstanding areas of natural
beauty or then people want to go and stay on holiday in those outstanding areas of natural beauty you know we're
very lucky we're sitting here today on a beautiful sunny day you know I was driving down over Bob and Moore and thinking you know isn't the world great
but you know I have driven over you know in the winter over Bob and Mo and think oh isn't the word Bob and Mo is the most

(19:02):
inhospitable place I've been to so um um so um so yeah so so it's not only aging
populations second homes is a challenge um but I think more of a challenge is clearly those those which are used for
holiday purposes and those sort of things um but of course that if you've got a lack of uh a lack of supply then

(19:23):
um but demand is high then therefore costs will go up it's just a natural economic curve so that will be a
challenge the sec social economic challenges of outstanding areas of natural beauty about good sustainable
jobs which are last more than 12 months jobs which also are close to employment
because no one really for example um lives close to their employment as we used to you know um you know Pendine for

(19:47):
example I was in Pendin in the first week in January and uh and uh I stayed in a minor's cottage and um and uh that
minor would have with their family would have spent their whole life around uh
around the the mines at Levant and would have walked the half a mile to the environment but these things don't
happen anymore and and so so there are a number of challenge challenges that outstanding areas of natural beauty have from a social economic point of view and

(20:11):
and yes second homes affordable housing by definition the term affordable means
it's unaffordable for for local for local people and of course the other thing is net migration you know when we
when you think about net migration people young people now have have lived through co and and you know um does
coral have the challenges they had when they were 16 17 now and now they're 25 answer most probably no you then there

(20:37):
there are other places and my own children are a good example my daughter is a mental health nurse in Cardiff she stayed when she went to university and
my son um works in Bristol and lives in Bristol so another good example of how
how um children are likely to migrate away from the southwest and only be able
to come back at some point when they can afford it when they're older so there's a there's that sort of vicious spiral

(21:00):
there was a Andrew George the MP for St Ives um I I was watching him in the week um is leading a campaign around a tax
loophole that exists with second homes for example and that's a very interesting uh point um because um um by
defining them as holiday cottages therefore they can define them as businesses so therefore but because

(21:20):
they're so small they can claim small um small business rates relief so therefore
they pay no council tax and they pay no rates relief for example so andrew
George said it's up to500 million pounds tax loophole that exists you know in environment so so you know that that's a
simple thing it's crazy if you're a young couple for example wanting to stay in Pendin or wanting to stay in Zeno or

(21:45):
wanting to stay you know in St just for example in the um in in the far west standing area of natural beauty you have
a challenge you're competing against people who are um richer than you most probably older than you and most
probably have a better credit rating than you well it does seem that loopholes seem to favor the rich doesn't
it well yeah they have good lawyers to find them yeah absolutely absolutely so

(22:08):
um as I say I could uh I could chat to you about all this all day long but I'd really like to uh to um touch on the
screen time and um what that means to you screen time um AI uh what's going on
in that space for you at the moment no AI is we're in a hype cycle at the

(22:28):
moment so any technology you and I old enough seem to remember the last you know.com boom and burst bust cycle um
and and AI is in a hype cycle at the moment mainly driven by um uh generative
AI which we you would define as chat GPT and those other things that we can we can we can do at the moment you know I

(22:48):
was looking at someone this morning the um my my my dog B who's sitting at my feet at the moment she came from the
Royal Society of Potential Accelerated to Animals um Little Valley Shelter and she was a rescue dog and uh they've um
mocked up a member of their staff and and AI can produce a a um an action
action man or action woman kit oh I've seen these popping up all over LinkedIn

(23:11):
and and and and so you know um uh generative AI has really focused our
minds about AI but we've been opening our phones we've been opening our phones with our faces and our fingers and our
thumbrints for years we've been using Alexa we've been using Siri well AI AI is first purported to have started in
1954 isn't it yeah 1956 at the conference it was it was framed artificial intelligence but Alan Turin

(23:37):
did the Turin test in 1950 so that was the the start of it so we're in this big hype cycle at the moment um
predominantly because we've got access to great AI and we can do great things with it um and um and it's open and it's
accessible like any new technology it starts off expensive but then gets cheaper and like any new technology it
gets stolen by someone if we think about fire at some point there was one group of people who lit the first fire but

(24:03):
within rapid amount of time people were warming themselves up or cooking food using fire because they didn't have the
monopoly on the um so AI is is driving um is driving change people can see the
benefits of AI they can see the the uh uh the resource benefits of it they can
see the ability to work across unstructured data so unstructured data is data which is not necessarily in a in

(24:28):
a database but it's it's across a range of um of activities such as PDFs or um
uh emails laptops uh uh social media uh responses so um so AI is is booming at
the moment um the big players in AI uh are the technology companies um um the

(24:49):
Amazon of the world the Google's the Metas the um the Microsofts of of the world and um and
certainly um there is a drive to be the race to be the AI leader in in terms of
countries in the world um and so um Kstama has said that the UK wants to be
one of the world leaders um uh Trump has said that he is keen and they're they're an investment of 500 billion US dollars

(25:15):
you know that's that's a huge amount of money you know you know in terms of AI and China's keen yeah yeah absolutely
because the benefits are quite clear you know but like anything you know that with any new technology there are always
risks for example you know when the Wright brothers got inside their airplane and flew for 12 seconds they never knew that there would be you know
at some point in the future a bomber which could carry a nuclear missile like the you know the British Vulcan bomber

(25:39):
for example but the unintended consequences of new technology were were never known so absolutely and so a lot
of people say I'm really scared of AI could you know it could do bad yep well a car in the wrong hands is a dangerous
weapon so um so yeah so AI is growing um the fear of AI AI is really data an

(26:00):
algorithm and an output um but it's it's what happens within the initial data that you have got and ironing out the
biases that exist within that data set uh the algorithm and the waitings that you attach to certain outcomes you want
to achieve and then the outcomes and how we do that so so let me just um pause you there um the way I understand AI is
is it uh it looks at a question and it gives you the most probable answer to

(26:27):
that question based on the pattern of what the question looks like is is that
correct to really break it down yes it's it's one one of the ways it can do so AI is AI is a is an overarching name it has
three elements to it it has machine learning it has something called deep learning which is um um using big

(26:48):
computers using lots of data and using lots of algorithms to be able to come out with um with the output uh and then
generative AI which is as as I've just said about chat GPT and generative something new and and in essence AI is
telling us something new about the data that we've actually put into the system so for an example when you look at your
facial recognition and your camera um it's taking a picture of your when you first start it takes a picture of your

(27:13):
face several times and it's identifying in mathematical so exactly that mathematical format a grid and it's
giving features on your face a point and a number using a binary number when you go back at some point in the future and
point your face to it it's trying to match it up to the to the picture it had using mathematics it's not using pixels
um on your and and and when it when it opens it Steve it's saying this is

(27:38):
probably probably probably you because it's a probability model correct so so
so it's more probable to be you than it is a million other people or something
like that and but also then it learns for itself yeah so if you're if you're down at the beach and surfing and you
got your and you've just got out um in the in your van and you've got your sunnies on for example um and um and you

(28:01):
open your phone it necessarily first time won't open your phone and you have to put your code in yeah but after about
10 times of putting your code in it identifies it saying "Hang on every time he's shown that picture with his sunnies
on uh then actually that so it starts to learn." A very good example i was in Thailand last year um
and um on holiday and um I I had a drink in a in a bar i paid by my my my card i

(28:27):
think it was a tap card and then and about a minute later I then booked a flight on my phone uh the two were most
probably connected because I'd most probably had too much to drink and uh but I spent £1,000 on a flight i think I was I was I was going somewhere on the
way back to back to London and and so I thought I'd redirect my flight and within seconds my bank had rang up and
said "Excuse me sir issue because it identified a pattern of behavior that which is unusual because they know what

(28:52):
my normal spending pattern is because they they they have that in an algorithm they know it when something's out with
the uh so when you think about mathematics when it's outside the normal natural curve it then says "Oh okay
there's an anonymity here perhaps we should ring him and just check this one out." So fraud detection is another good example that's massive isn't it and and
and again that's that's when they see something that's not quite right correct pattern which is um a trend which is not

(29:19):
in your normal your bank for example will know know your spending they'll know what you normally they'll know that
on a Wednesday I go shopping on a this day I do that and occasionally I do that and maybe go honk but why but why would
Nigel be buying a£,000 flight it may not be £1,000 but it it was a significant number after a very small transaction
yeah okay and now a word from our sponsor solve is an SEO and web design

(29:45):
agency agency that builds highquality sustainable websites and strategies to help businesses grow online they're also
BC Corp meaning they're a business for good making a positive impact while driving real results as a special offer
for our listeners Solve is offering a free website audit and consultation just

(30:06):
mention searching for a greener room to claim yours so talking about fraud
protection tell me about how that works yeah fraud protection is uh one of the
interesting areas uh so most banks or financial services credit card companies
that we deal with know our spending habits using AI and great big algorithms to to work out um how we spend and how

(30:32):
what we went when we spend so for example your let's take your your normal bank card your normal current account
card they would normally know that you might go on a Friday to to to Tesco's or Sainsburries or Aldi or Little or Waitro
or or one of the supermarkets and you buy a big shop and then you would incidentally during the week you would
use um and you would sometimes um during the um during the week you might do some

(30:55):
internet shopping um so the good example of my example was in Thailand that um
that banks know the pattern of behavior now online which identifies fraudulent
behavior and normally for an example um if you look at it it's normally a small transaction followed by a big
transaction um but of course when you consider the amount of data the banks have it's really impossible for humans

(31:19):
to keep track of us so u my my trip to Thailand last year was a classic example where I I went to uh I had a dinner I
went to a bar afterwards i I I I I tapped my card uh on a small transaction
a relatively small transaction for um a drink and then uh whilst I was sitting for a drink I decided to to book my
flight home and it was uh something like £1,000 rather than £5 or

(31:45):
um whatever the the tire equivalent was and within seconds I had a text message from the bank and a phone call from the
bank saying Mr gooding we've noticed a small transaction and then a very big one made on a different format so they'd
not my tap was carded but I booked the flight on my my phone uh and you're and
we noticed that the IP address i.e the internet address was actually not in the UK so not the one that you normally

(32:08):
using seeing so when you consider a bank trying to put all that information together in using human beings it would
be impossible because you'd need a number of different systems well they'd need to be looking at your account correct all the time so what AI has done
is that the bank know what knows what fraud looks like and so what they've done is is that the AI systems they said
if any of the patterns of these patterns are picked up across any of our networks then therefore it needs to be flagged up

(32:34):
and so and as a result it was flagged up now there is a good mathematical way of doing that because our spending patterns
are clustered and anything that sits outside the normal pattern of our behavior can then um be graphical uh
graphically formatted and of which then an action can take place i.e we need to talk to Mr gooding which they did um so

(32:55):
so that's a good example that's a good example just out of interest if if if I'm um I've been surfing for many many
years and um if that uh expense was suddenly a surfboard would that be
recognized as a as a usual behavior for me because they might might be yeah i I
I think I think that um you know when you consider that that airlines and and those sort of areas are are quite

(33:19):
frequent fraud areas of people stealing people's uh you know credentials and then going booking a flight sort of
thing you know i remember and in 2005 I went to speak at a conference in um in in Johannesburg and um and I went
shopping uh to next to the conference center and of course it was a day when they would give you a receipt credit

(33:40):
card receipt but on the credit card receipt it would have all the information you needed including your expiry date there was no such thing as
security numbers done in the back and within two two weeks of me getting back to the UK people had booked flights
using you know using the credit card details because I had left the receipt in the hotel or I I left the receipt
with the the person behind the such and um yeah so I'd booked 10 flights from Johannesburg to London

(34:06):
which obviously now AI would have picked up doesn't need 10 flights and it would have stopped it would have stopped yeah
it would have stopped that yeah um you know it's a bit like you trying to open your phone you know with the wrong PIN
number five times and it'll close it down you um fraud fraud systems within banks are designed to set up so a real
positive of AI how about um the amount of data and information that each

(34:31):
individual has online um you talk you you work with security
and all of that sort of stuff what what can we do to sort that because I I've
been put I've I've had a computer since computers since I had a tiny computer i
don't know 19 whenever um and I I must have put my details into computers well

(34:56):
when you and I you know I had a sync Spectrum which is one of my first one of my first computers and and it had a tape
recorder and uh made funny noises but it was never connected to anyone it was
never connected it was always um it was always um devoid of any
connection it wasn't until the late 90s that we started connecting it to to people and and and um and then that's

(35:21):
when the the risk came and and look we all leak like saves data we all try not
to leak like cifs and one of the reasons that when you consider the reason why we had data protection law in this country
which predominantly driven by um uh the events of Europe in the 1930s and 40s
where organizations wanted to collect data and wanted to segregate people and

(35:45):
wanted to put them in silos and wanted to so one of the key things about GDPR is that it it it guarantees our rights
to have our information private within certain functions and particularly when we think the special characteristics um
our faiths our uh race religion trade union membership sexuality um uh sexual

(36:06):
orientation um health um but we we leak like SIGs where we access and of course
the challenge we have is and one of one of the things that you said earlier about you know one one of the books that you might want to to read is about
um is um the coming way by Mustala Suman mr
was um um um is currently the head of AI at Microsoft and wrote the book about the coming wave is about that we are

(36:32):
marketers dream you know organizations are in business because they need to increase shareholder value if you're
talking about a commercial organization and the data they have on us means that they can cross and upsell other products
to us you'll hear all your your stories about the fact is oh that was really
weird I was online looking for garden products and the next thing you know someone said would you like to buy a gazebo

(36:55):
presented to me you know and and that's because the profiling that is taking place so we're leaking data and data
data am I right in saying that data is the uh is the the gold dust of of of
commodities now well yeah some people call it the new oil but like oil if you mistreat it it can have serious
consequences yeah for sure uh and and and certainly we're all leak like saves uh in terms of our data and all we can

(37:19):
do you know I I I put in for example um I use an app to get here today for an example and in the in the car and uh you
know the location tracking service was already there so um so yes but we must
remember where data protection legislation came from and it came from um the Nazi regime and certainly the
Eastern European regimes after the second world war and and the reason why they wanted to collect data is so that

(37:45):
they could persecute certain sections of of the community right nothing nothing to do with marketing uh not yet not yet
that's interesting um and of course now if we look at the public sector if we look at the public sector there's a huge
opportunity to use the data that we've actually got in a positive way because to be able to model and plan future
health care services uh road rail link schools um housing need employment needs

(38:10):
is fantastic you know you can see that the ability now of the NHS and they are doing it to have MRI scans and X-rays
which are producing 9 to 10% more accurate results than clinicians in terms of detecting tumors and heart
palmutations and and and things is fantastic however that comes at a cost

(38:32):
because we have to train the models to get it right so we have to use huge sums of data and where do we get that data
from us and then secondly how do we know that data for example is right in the
first place so a good example would be that if we're going to use um in the states a good example is using a
sentencing tool against those people who are likely to reaffend um but when they

(38:55):
trained the model the AI model they used it data from the 60s and 70s and policing in the states was certainly
different than it is now yeah and and you can certainly understand that actually that um uh that it was most
probably skewed towards AfroCaribbean men because at the time that they were uh um at the time that they they were

(39:16):
the predominantly the group that were being arrested and allegedly reaffending on the basis of that but times change
and of course the data they're using is out of date seat belts is another good example seat belts in the in in in in
most modern cars are designed on the principles of the male physiologically yeah I heard this yeah and and but Har

(39:38):
but women drive cars and we're we're built differently than than women yeah yeah that's because the data used in the
modeling came from people who drove cars in the 60s and 70s okay and the vast majority of people who drove cars in the
60s and 70s were men so when you think about biases and then you start to train your AI model against this biased data

(39:59):
set garbage in garbage out yeah yeah yeah you know if if I try and open your phone using my my face it won't let me
garbage in because it's the wrong face you know um so um and the same with tools as well tools are designed for man
as well yeah yeah um and that's based on Yeah so um so AI has and data um has the

(40:21):
um the challenge of is the initial data we've trained the machine to get it right so training the machine just says
is it right is it right is it right you know if you're training a machine to identify cats and dogs is it a cat is it
a cat is it a dog you got it wrong you know it's about getting good accuracy good accuracy figures on that but we
need more data to be able to do so so we can all see the benefits of data all see the benefits of sharing data but of

(40:45):
course with that do we trust those people who have the data to do so and
then that brings me nextly nicely onto marketing steve you mentioned marketing just now and of course we're marketers
dream you know marketers dream you know why would we not for example you know you're a surfing man why would we not
send everything surfing related products to Steve for example because we want to cross an upsell to him so um so yeah it

(41:10):
is an interesting landscape data like oil it's supposed to be you know the new oil but like oil unless you handle it
carefully if you leak some then you're in trouble and and it cost you a damn site more to clean it up uh and and and
and so your reputation so it's a real um it's a real interesting landscape to be
in i'm I'm one of those who are positive i'm glass half full ma'am um I I totally

(41:35):
believe that the opportunities that AI can bring us and and the positive use of data the transparency data protection
law says you have to have a lawful basis you have to be fair and you have to be transparent when you process personal
data then then then then absolutely so be and you have to keep it safe and only retain it for as long as but you're only
allowed to use it for the initial purpose that you collected for blah blah blah so um you know safeguards are in place and organizations are making those

(42:00):
um changes so when people moan about data protection law it's there to protect us and who's um who's policing
this um one of the challenges you have is that every organization has a responsibility um if they process
personal data for example so that's anything that can identify us either
directly or indirectly um has a responsibility um and there is a regulator called the information

(42:25):
commissioner but really it's because there are so many organizations processing personal data look at every
small business for example absolutely they have their own responsibility so so it's a self-pleasing um exercise and of
which the regulator will take action if things go wrong i guess at some stage AI will be uh checking the AI

(42:45):
ai is actually improving its own AI yes crazy is yes it's got the ability to work the problem through yeah it's got
the problem you know it uses something called reinforcement learning reinforcement learning is lovely i like talking about reinforcement learning so
when I said to you that there there are three types of AI there's machine learning there's generative AI chacht
and there's deep learning so that's a the deeper models that we're using at the moment um to detect you know cancer

(43:10):
detection those sort things in scans but but reinforcement learning is a part of machine learning it's it works on
rewards and punishment so it rewards itself the AI tool rewards itself when
it gets it right so look at robots it rewards itself but one of the easiest examples of understanding reinforcement
learning is Netflix you turn your Netflix on and in front of you you've

(43:33):
got a picture of things that they think you might want to watch your recommendation system it's profiled you
look at your age look at what you watched before the length of the type of the program the genre you know do you
like horror films or do you like action movies or do you like romcoms you know it's it's profiling those sort of
programs um towards you and the reinforcement punishment and learning is the punishment is if it gets it wrong it

(43:58):
goes back if you don't watch that program that's the punishment so it goes back into the system and tries to put up
to one out of 20 different pictures in front of you of the same program to try and actually learn which picture you
actually like and if you press on it um and you watch it even for 10 minutes that's that's the reward yes I've done
it so there's not some little guy or girl sitting in your TV and saying "Yeah I got it right let's have a party um

(44:24):
it's the algorithm having a party saying "Yeah I've got that right well done." sort of thing and they would have set a policy netflix would have set a policy
saying 80% of stuff that I'm sitting in front of Steve on Netflix actually I
want him to watch that's the policy that's my KPI that I actually got to got to reach as such so so yeah so
reinforcement learning is really good exactly the same reinforcement a bit like when we were kids when we were in

(44:47):
chemistry during the kids at school you know we put our fingers through the Bunson burner hopefully we wouldn't get
burnt when we got burnt we learned the way we could put it back and we went back again didn't we went back until we
got it right you know so listen I could literally chat to you all
day long and I'd be really keen for you to uh come back on to chat some more about about all of the stuff we talked

(45:09):
about but what I want to move on quickly to is um is uh your evidence and we've
asked you for five bits of evidence which you've already talked about one of them already but what we're going to do for a bit of fun is we're going to give
you a minute to talk about each one and Alex is sitting over there with the uh the dinner bell and uh we're going to uh

(45:30):
we're going to start off with the first one are you ready to go so your first bit of evidence is the
coming wave by Mustapa Sullyon yeah mustafa Sulleon yeah so So interesting
guy um started in London uh in the 20 uh 20s uh 200s was it 200 or 20s cutting a

(45:50):
very long story short um set up a number of successful AI companies the coming wave really is I'm listening to it um
rather than reading it um at the moment e book it's about the coming wave of AI about technology the ability to to move
forward he's now gone and worked for Microsoft as being the head of AI so he knows his stuff and it's really interesting if you want to see how

(46:11):
technology has started from and then develop from but remember look the Wright brothers if you got to fly out of
Nuki airport this afternoon you will not be flying on a Wright brothers airline you'll be flying on Boeing or Airbus or
Bomb Bombardier and remember that those people who developed the first new technology aren't those people to
commercialize it and so must really strong advocate of that that was perfect

(46:37):
you've been practicing haven't you you've been rehearsing this absolutely so the next one is cannibals
with forks uh by John Elkington yeah yeah look um
business is defined by John Elington as cannibals so those people in the commercial world are cannibals they're
they're to drive shareholder value no one goes into business with a commercial

(47:01):
head on with a view for philanthropy you know when you think about when you think
about um uh when you think about Microsoft and when it was first set up you know they do great amount of
philanthropy now but actually it was about setting up a business that actually can change the world in terms of the way that we do business so
cannibals were forks really is about don't trust anyone in business uh but if you are going to trust them isn't the

(47:23):
21st century business is about sustainability not only from environmental but corporal social
responsibility and their philanthropy e effort should be into environmental sustainable ability and and so so
cannibals with forks yeah there a whole bunch of crooks in in the commercial world but look you know one thing they
can do is actually promote sustainability in their business you literally have been practicing this

(47:47):
haven't you that was perfect timing the next one the Dao report yeah the DAR
report is not quite as dar as it sounds that report he was a planner he was charged by the ATI government in 1945 to
write a report on green spaces in um England Scotland Ireland and Wales uh he
was the guy that proposed that one there should be a statute of responsibility for government to keep open spaces open

(48:13):
for two reasons one of it the war was so rubbish that actually everyone needs to get out and go into the Lake District and go into North Yorks so the formation
of national parks and two put a statutory responsibility they protect the landscape through planning but they
also are able to deliver environmental and recreational activities for the
public who had a real bad time between 1939 and 1945 so the DAR report is the start of outstanding areas of natural

(48:38):
beauty and national parks
perfect a song for Cormal by Will Keaton ah yeah so Will Keaton the song for Cormal um you know when you hear the
song for Cormal um it it emphasizes the past history and the culture may
Trilani's army never die um and um about mining about fishing uh and about

(49:03):
farming uh and really about the traditional heritage of corbal and how that now I always say that actually that
when we think about sustainable business for the future we've got to move away from the environment whereby mining
fishing and agriculture we need to think differently about sustainable business and so whenever when I sing and I love
it because um there's always a bit where it says retroic if we remember um if we

(49:28):
remember the steam engine was developed in Cormal um there's always a good book where I actually say well yeah
those industries are still around does anyone want to work in them but we need to think about other things like AI
centers and we need to think about using the the skills of the local population to think about other innovative
sustainable businesses that they can do from home for example or or in groups

(49:51):
awesome and the last one the bonus oh you've got an extra bonus here reed Hoffman on AI as intelligence amplifier
yeah Reed Hoffman um is a is a a states billionaire but he's one
of the good guys in AI uh in terms of it he is a Democrat not saying Democrats and Republicans are good but he's a

(50:13):
Democrat sits in the other side of the fence to the uh the tech bros that are currently um uh doing um some
interesting things uh in the market um but certainly uh he is a guy that
podcast weekly uh and um has some really interesting so if anyone wants to know about AI and a different perspective and
a social um and social and environmentally perspective Reed Hoffman is the guy rather than telling you how

(50:39):
good he is about his algorithms and how uh you know and and what new invention he's developed so yeah I would highly
recommend Reed Hoffman um being the guy to follow awesome well that's uh that sounds like
some great reads and some um some great listening i I I try to a bit of a diverse group there yeah that's great
that's great thank you very much and um now we're going to go over to your top

(51:03):
tips and uh once again we're going to set the alarm for these um so are you
ready Alex the first one is define your ethics and principles early in life i
was very lucky that I grew up in a an environment where we didn't have much money um I grew up on two council houses
uh and um I had a lot of fun uh in that environment and it grounded me and I defined my ethics really early in life

(51:28):
and my principles early in life and what I was prepared to accept and what I wasn't prepared to accept and I've carried them through in business at the
moment i won't do um business with anyone that ethical principles do not agree with mine uh and and and certainly
um keep them through so define your ethics and principles set your own standards they will change they will
change i agree they will change as you you know um um you know certainly at 1718 I was going on pro solidarity which

(51:53):
was the uh the Polish trade union marches to support um that in trade
unionism in Poland um you know I was certainly a member of the campaign for nuclear disarmament at the time uh and
and but my views do you want to finish that one off yeah
yeah my my my views have definitely changed in in terms of nuclear deterrent for example but but to find them early

(52:17):
in life and and stick to them yeah excellent and get involved in political causes yeah i I guess I guess it's the
fact that change will only happen if we look at the things that have changed in the world um particularly women getting
the vote for example political cause um uh when we think about change happening in in our own country for example in

(52:37):
Northern Ireland um in the end it wasn't violence that changed it was political change that took place in terms of
giving a fairly lasting peace in Northern Ireland for an example um and I would say that um that change only takes
place with the will uh and the enthusiasm of people so so if if if you want change to happen don't get on
Facebook don't get on Instagram don't get on social media and complain about do something about it you know get up

(53:01):
and change and get up and vote and and and do those things and and support those things and and certainly Yeah
trust no one in business yeah okay so remember what I said earlier that people don't go into business to be
philanthropist they might go into business for lifestyle businesses they might do it because uh they quite enjoy it but actually um if someone says

(53:21):
they'll pay you tomorrow then do your due diligence and make sure they'll pay you and um you know I've been burnt um
several times um in in business particularly around um uh people who have one day um uh gone into
administration and week after set up the similar business with the similar name and started trading again in buying the
profitable assets of that business and owe me £35,000 so um from you know anyone who who wants some good business

(53:46):
advice don't trust anyone until you've done your due diligence yeah yeah that changes over time as well because once you've established a good relationship
that changes but initially um stay Yeah be kind be
nice it costs nothing yeah i think I think you know I'm Steve as you most probably know I'm a rugby referee as
well and I think that um you know th those people who provide me with the car parking space those people who who are

(54:09):
pleasant towards me when I go back there guess what i have a better feeling about going back to that location where I have
a really poor reception or a poor uh attitude from people than if I go back
there i have a that that that doesn't make me feel good about going back there so be kind be nice it costs nothing uh
and and you know we're all human beings we're all equals and we all we all come from the same place and we'll all go to

(54:32):
the same place so yeah yes absolutely um make marginal gains on what causes the
most harm yeah i was doing some sums uh yesterday about marginal gains let's think about our own environmental
protection and and what we can do and and and it's a bit like losing weight everyone wants to lose one stone within
the first week that's not going to happen you know if you're going to lose weight it's a marginal gain let's think about our own environmental if we could

(54:57):
one reduce our carbon footprint by 1% each month over one year that would be
12% we'd have reduced our carbon footprint by 12% and that doesn't necessarily mean um that we have to stop
driving our car we can give up for example one meat meal a week for example if we eat meat for example um we can
give up buying one piece of clothes for example um uh when we can recycle our

(55:21):
clothes for example we can stop buying um a bottle of uh of bottled water or
chinned water for example um once a week and we can you know it's marginal gains think about how you can change your
behavior 1% year month two you'd have had 2% yeah I love that that's that's
inspirational and I I think um I think very much in life as humans we want

(55:45):
everything today we want everything now yeah we're in that culture we do we do you know I um you know I think um um we
do you know I'm the same you know I'm I'm going down to St ives after this and
my broadband's not fitted but I I wanted it when I ordered it you know some man or woman to come around
tomorrow and you know get it all set up but that doesn't happen that's not life so tell me what's one thing we can all

(56:09):
do today to make a better tomorrow and find that greener room i think the Steve
first thing is to recognize that we are in a climate crisis so I think that's a that's important to recognize i drove
past Bman Moore today and I saw the the fires that have been caused now whilst
they might have been caused by um human beings and undertaken criminal activity the ground was certainly dry enough and

(56:33):
tender enough to do so we're in April it should not be like it should not be as dry as we've had we've not had rain for
three four weeks I don't think or or any sizable rain for three four weeks so what we can do is I think set up a
pattern of marginal gains for our environmental um activity and and and and we should and what I say in getting
involved in politics is being able to push that agenda through you know we should not living in the 21st century in

(56:57):
the UK of having sewage being leaked into bathing beaches and surfing beaches
during not only the summer but the winter as well we should not being we're we're first world country so get
involved in those political courses i think they're really important and and support them but secondly make our own
slight small marginal changes you know we don't need to we don't need to give

(57:18):
up everything but we can certainly you know we can certainly be sensible about it and and better and and and change our
behavior really and change our behavior about how we do things nigel thank you so much for coming on today it's been uh
an absolute pleasure to chat to you i could chat to you for another another few episodes at least if you'd uh come
back and uh and do a part two that would be awesome yeah part two is are lovely and uh if you buy me a pint at sometime

(57:41):
as well that would be great well I might even do that thank you very much sure and B's really
enjoyed herself as well look now she's got the ball outlet there and we'll get a picture of Bo up on the uh on the profile as well there look thank you
very much thank you Steve thank you very much that's it for this episode of Searching for a Green Room we'd love to
hear your thoughts let us know what you think who you'd like to hear from any topics you want us to cover drop us a

(58:08):
comment don't forget to like and subscribe so you never miss an episode see you next time