Silly Whales! Ep.42: UK Academies Abusive?, Assisted Dying Bill Update!

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey yo, if somebody sent you this video it's probably because they're thinking about you

(00:05):
and they care about you.
They care about you enough to let you know that you was a bitch ass nigga and you're gonna
fuck around and get money waped in the streets with that fuck shit.
The only reason you ain't got your ass whooped yet is because niggas love you.

(00:28):
Welcome to silly whales.
It has been a while.
It has been a while.
It's been a while since I've said this is a mental health podcast and we talk about
things that are a little bit on the touchy side and that's okay if you don't want to
partake you don't want to have a listen.
That is good.
We're not gonna force you.

(00:49):
Okay.
We want you to enjoy yourselves here or feel like you've connected with yourself or with
us or the world but if discussing things that are a little bit on the touchy side things
to do with suicide things to do with assisted suicide and more depressed topics.
That's gonna unknow if you're that's gonna ruin your day.

(01:10):
That's actually gonna disrupt your flow.
That is okay to watch something else.
I want you to understand that.
And to know that there's no pressure here at all because this show is for everyone but
it might not be for you.
It's been a while.
It's been, it feels like it's been a month.
Maybe it has been a month.
Who knows?

(01:30):
I do.
Hello.
He can't be a exact, he can't be a month really but it feels like well actually now that
you've said it and I'm looking at the dates and stuff I'm like I mean it's not far off.
So.
Yeah.
No.
Luckily you have been able to provide something for the in-between of that which has been

(01:50):
which was nice for me anyway to listen to.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So what we had in that little interim period was the ice cube or show.
I will talk to him that more in the journal but for brief synopsis of it all I slandered
all of Midlands.
I managed, Smithic or Smith with where I've had to school to the afterlife and then sat

(02:16):
down with Ryan and discuss his recovery.
But we'll discuss it all later on.
Guys it's been a minute.
We're not out of rhythm, we're not out of sync.
So is there anything I need to say Joe before I hit straight into my mouth this week?
No, it's all on you, ma.
Look at that.
Look at that.
We'd never left.
It's been two days.

(02:39):
Yes, you heard me hopefully air talk about this week.

(02:59):
We discussed things that have been in the news of this week.
We have some interesting stories.
I think we stopped with two in the end but actually we should point where we were thinking we
couldn't find anything to do with like news and mental health and then we found the gold
mine and then we had to focus on two which was of importance to us on a level in which

(03:22):
one you can draw back to because you discussed this before and well we both lived and lived
in the vicinity of where these events are happening.
So we went down the low-corroot and also the callback route because I love a good callback.
I think we're going to start off with the assisted dying update which is what I've written

(03:45):
on the show notes which makes it sound like a patch for a game.
Sorry, like Teerzu representation of reality, like of like different animals having like
during the di- the creptaceous patch or whatever it's called.
Yeah, I'll find a brief for another synopsis really of why we titled it the assisted dying update.

(04:09):
We spoke about assisted dying in the bill that's coming into place in the movement of the
government and there's been an update to that bill and a recommendation of a change.
Now I'm going to kick the ball to Joe.
Oh no.
So we talked about this in episode 36 and I we didn't necessarily know how close or anything

(04:30):
like that.
We were to some of this becoming more general knowledge and then I think within, I'm trying
to think now how many weeks it would have been.
I think probably about within within a month of when we spoke about it and then of course
about a bit less than that from when it came out.
You would, I started seeing on the TV at work that there were some like committee discussions

(04:56):
about the assisted dying bill happening.
So we just like, we happened to catch it just before it became like now something like a media
talking piece like you would actually see on news stuff.
Which is, which was great.
We saw it hitting it at the right moment.
And hopefully there are people who like saw it coming who maybe saw it and were like, oh,

(05:16):
I've heard about this and like I can kind of approach this with like a more with them
with some level of kind of knowledge prior.
So obviously now that it's in the larger space, there has been, there are people making
discussions about it.
Kim Ledbiter, Kim Ledby, whatever.

(05:36):
The is a MP who is very much involved with the kind of direction of this bill who we
might reference here and there.
But the larger discussion point at least that has come up in the in the Guardian that we
thought was an interesting area to kind of talk about with this because I because it's especially

(06:01):
when we're talking about it is a very sensitive area.
But and we do, we feel very like as you know, if you listen to that episode, we had a very
sort of like, yeah, this is a positive step that's being taken and all of that.
But it's worth it's worth discussing issues or worries that people might have about these
things.

(06:22):
Especially when we in you know, can see that yes, there are there are reasons for people
to at least question or ask and put forward.
But yeah, this is maybe an issue or not, which was this is coming from the charity, the
Center for Women's Justice and standing together against domestic abuse, which was about

(06:46):
the sort of essentially the idea of coercion involved within people's decision making.
Now we didn't talk about it.
We're in people's decision making about wanting to have assisted to have assisted death and
so on.
Now this I think is is technically before we even get into this, we never spoke about it
on the last episode, but this is always kind of a conversation that needs to come up around

(07:13):
any situation in which.
You know, there's legal ability to say, oh, I want to have help to die and things like that
because and why I think there are very reasonable questions like, should we be like, should this

(07:33):
be a thing?
Because you can see how like if you had full ability to say like, oh, I want this to happen,
I want this horrible thing to happen to me and we allowed that consent fully and we can
it was like, I legally recognize the way that there is naturally, I think a lot of people
would go, that seems like something that could be manipulated in some way.

(07:56):
Like, you know, like it's not, you know, the idea that like someone can be, you know, that
someone can be essential, someone can die and essentially it has this air of like, oh,
he just wanted to kill themselves and so on when in fact it wasn't for example, very much
like if we're thinking about it from a media representation, they're kind of like, oh,
he died, you know, make it look like an accident or something like that, or like make it look

(08:19):
like he did it himself, like he, like, oh, he didn't, you know, or whatever, very like kind
of like mafia representation there.
Yeah.
When we think about that stuff.
Now again, this is not, that's not what this bill is.
This bill isn't like straight up like just the idea of assisted suicide in the larger,

(08:40):
broader spectrum, but there is this very reasonable worry and I don't, I really am not actually
able to kind of speak on this with any level of like actual professionality because I really
don't know the statistics and everything that would, that should, the ice, that you would

(09:03):
need to examine this properly, but the idea of like that people can be coercively controlled
to be put under pressure to end their own lives.
This is, I mean, as a general rule, we obviously know that that's not a good thing.

(09:23):
And we, you can see how it would happen for people with terminal illness.
I think this is the one bit where I felt like we almost got there, but maybe we didn't
when we discussed it before of the idea of not wanting to be burdened some on other people.
And I think that that can be like a purely organic like self created thing, the idea of like,

(09:44):
oh, I don't want to cause this issue or this issue, therefore, you know, there are definitely,
I think people in an old age who definitely feel like this.
But the actual risk there is, you know, what if you, what if like the, if we normalize
the idea that people can get assisted dying and then when people know that they go, hey,

(10:05):
I'm going to manipulate this person to act a certain way or to do XYZ.
And this, and so there's already been discussions about it.
I'll just say quickly, what is that in this particular article that I'm looking at what
they've quoted as Kim, let me say, like mentioning about this, which is that the hope is with

(10:34):
any, with any bill like this that there would be, and which is also why this is not going
to happen for a while, like this bill is not going to come in like in the next year.
Like it's going to be long.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Is there the, I've listened to experts and drawn from best practice to propose amendments,
which include an explicit role for social workers in the process and a requirement for assessing

(10:57):
doctors to receive bespoke training in detecting coercion and pressure?
I actually have no idea because this really is outside of my, you might have a better sense
of this in me of how, like obviously that this would need to exist, but how good that
can be because I genuinely don't have like a good sense of like the ability to detect

(11:20):
that sort of thing.
I'm not saying you do specifically, but I think with your work, with the work you've done
in the past, I think you have more of an idea about, you know, safe, like safe housing or
like, you know, making sure that, you know, young people are taking the responsibility
on and so on.
Yeah, safe guarding, that's the word, yeah.
It's also like, you know, I've been a victim of someone stalking me with the goal to

(11:46):
get me to kill myself.
was like, like, it's a it's a bit of a, it's a, it's a quote, somebody, it's a stick, you
on sale? Like it, it, it, it, it, it, if otherwise me, I'm, I'm perplexed by how this easily
flew over my head anyway, don't know about yours. And how like we didn't think of this when

(12:08):
we were recording this episode to begin with, and there were really, we originally discuss
this topic. And it's just like, to safeguard somebody from a coercive situation like this, it
requires a lot of awareness and detective-esque skills. And the proposal of having a social

(12:29):
worker be able to sign off on this as well is interesting because that means that we
have to have a social worker assigned to you specifically, which means that someone
has to look over who you are and judge that you are doing this from a, a good standing,
I guess. So I find that quite perplexing and quite, I will love seeing how it plays out

(12:53):
because you have to then judge whether somebody's doing this, or they're on free will, or
somebody's doing this because they're being coerced. And that requires so much, like, because
if you turn somebody down, but they are doing a free will, you've effectively prolonged
someone's, well, suffering. If you're right, and they are being coerced into it, the steps

(13:20):
that need to be taken from there, well, it goes straight to criminal. Surely, if you're
a social worker and you go, wait a second, this person is going to be a domestic abuse,
it goes from a, this person about to commit suicide to, we're about to arrest the person who's
causing this person like to live their life to put with the world, don't want to be alive

(13:41):
anymore. It takes a massive leap in a different direction entirely. And it's definitely a scary
role, I think, to be in, like it would be a very pressured role, yeah, which social workers
are in general, in that sort of role. Exactly. But normally, because things like as a social
worker, you depends on who you deal with, your clientele base as well. There's, you often,

(14:06):
see often signposting the old offering support to someone who ideally wants to be helped and
wants to like get themselves to a certain point of safety. And then, but with this, you're
saying that you have to make the judgment of what somebody is or some mind to die. So it's

(14:29):
a whole different pressure, because you want to help somebody by signing off on the death
effectively. I will say so an argument that's immediately appearing in my head and again,
I might be, this is my like, sort of reaction, this is my reaction to, to, to this point.
I will quote Kim again, Kim Bebe in a second as well. But don't we already essentially

(14:57):
do this? Like, isn't there already attempts like this to recognize, you know, for example,
in the medical sphere, there's, we, we consistently have discussions around like consent and
we know what, you know, for example, the nature of like at what point can a child make
a decision that the parents are against and, or, you know, and things like that. Like,

(15:20):
for example, can, can a Jehovah's Witness prevent their child from having surgery and
so on and things like that? Like, we, these kind of areas have already been already being
done. And there's definitely, I think, discussions when we, when we've been talking about like,
kind of criminal stuff where we make a distinction between the idea of someone being coerced
into doing something versus someone wanting to do it on their own volition. So I think that,

(15:47):
so to a certain extent, the only thing I'll say is I, or the one thing I'll say is that
it seems to me like this is a discussion that is already kind of a, a recognized one within
the kind of ethical legal system because it has to be like when, when we're talking about
like as being a social species and then we have this effect on each other, we do make

(16:09):
these distinctions between like, is this person doing something on the basis of X or Y?
I think if anything, what it says, oh, sorry, that, that someone is making them do X or Y,
I think that if anything, what it suggests is that any sort of push towards improving sort

(16:32):
of like domestic abuse, like charities, like, you know, and, or, no, I shouldn't even say
charities really because that's not like one. What I want is is like, actual, like the, it's,
I'm, I'm going to find this hard difficult to explain because I don't know this area very
well, but stuff associated with domestic abuse and also just abuse in general and these forms

(16:57):
of like kind of social work or community work that attempt to try and break this, to break
these things down, prior, it just seems to indicate that that is still like, it just seems
to heighten the fact that this is already important and the fact that it's so important

(17:18):
means that it will still means it will continue to be important even with this and isn't necessarily
this, this isn't necessarily the camel that's breaking the straws back if that makes sense.
Like, you, or really it's just a lack of services or, or the way that people live in community
that kind of creates the, can create like these situations in which you have these homes

(17:42):
where this kind of thing can exist and the messaging isn't necessarily right for everyone
and like, or the messaging isn't necessarily great for everyone again, it's a difficult
concept because, because this is, this is the kind of bleed between like social community
and like personal and household if you know what I mean, like, the, the, the, the, the, the
medical as well because like, yeah, a lot of this is, is, there's something that will, I

(18:06):
thought that this would be something that by the end of the year, this would be like a
done and dusted thing but when examples like these here come up because there's other examples
now against assisted dying that are now becoming, well, they're being brought to the forefront

(18:26):
and it makes me think that this will take more than one year we could be looking to, that
takes three to five years or is brought in in a very restricted way similar to how like,
your medical marijuana is introduced in this country and it has been around in this country
for a while, it is very rarely prescribed by doctors. I feel like it would be like that and

(18:50):
I hope that wherever we do, we do, we do, we do it right but I mean, just to see where we
take this and what we do as a country to mitigate these cases as well because it's, it's, it's
a, it's very awful, awful, you know, it's kind of, it's, it's reality. These things happen.

(19:11):
Like, I know it's mentioned in this article as well but women's aid and other women's charities
are pushing for people to be held accountable if, you know, they commit suicide, they have
women commit suicide by way of general abuse, they want the abuse to be held accountable
and charged and I grew that entirely. Yeah. It's, it's wild to think that, yeah, I think it's

(19:39):
very much a case of, we're in a situation now where we have to really cover all bases and
really safeguard the people who access these services as well and yeah, that's it really.
Yeah, so this quote, I will just say because I think that this kind of represents a lot of
the idea I have on this. Under the status quo, terminally ill people including women are

(20:03):
taking matters into their own hands, taking their own lives at home or traveling overseas.
Right now, we cannot know whether these people have made an entirely voluntary decision
free from coercion and in full knowledge of all options open to them. This to me at least,
that quote is indicative, I think of like a larger, I guess, like maybe philosophical social

(20:27):
idea, like thing that I have with like how legal systems should be, which is at the moment,
like, because what is the alternative? Right. Let's say there is someone who is going to
take their life when they're terminally ill. That's already something that someone can
do. I mean, people do do that and the idea is, well, okay. So if someone is going to do

(20:49):
that right now, there is just no way in which that can be done in a way that's like safe and
you know, and so on, like in a way that's good for them. So to speak and in a way that is like,
okay, this is happening and there isn't, you don't need like a whole, you know, you don't
need a whole like investigation done to check like why this person died and like and do all

(21:12):
of this and that. So it's like a very kind of like a system by which someone can essentially
express that like I'm terminally ill. This is suffering that I am experiencing and knowing that I am
going to die, it may piece with with with my with with this or as best as I can. But I don't want to

(21:32):
keep suffering every day because this is just awful. So I want to be able to, you know, make this
a moment that occurs. I want to have time with my family or whoever is around me that I love
to to have that and then I can choose my death, right? And that makes a lot of sense. At at the moment,

(21:56):
that's not possible in the way that because there is no kind of system for it, which again, that makes,
you know, that's essentially what this bill was about is making a system available for that.
So if coercion is something that someone would try to get someone to do to you,
if you're pushing someone like if you're coercing someone towards this kind of thing,

(22:18):
is that going to change whether that person, whether there's a system that's available for
for them to do it this way or not? Do you know what I mean? Like if someone, if someone feels like
they they want to die, is is it, is it, if they're being coerced either way, does it necessarily,
is it the fault of the system being put in place? Or is it just the fault of the fact that someone

(22:42):
is coercing them? And in at least in one of them, there is a system which potentially, and should
obviously have a like safeguarding involved and also can have like investigation made on behalf of
the individual who is saying that they want assisted assistance with their death.

(23:06):
And have it essentially be noted and recorded rather than a situation in which there is absolutely no
paper trail. There's nothing, there's absolutely nothing involved. There's no, there's, it's kind
of like the thing with drugs, right? Where if, you know, when drugs aren't something that you can get,
you're just going to, people will end up getting them through other means and that in itself is a

(23:31):
problem because you don't have no idea what, what's happening then. You have no idea what's
happening with those drugs. So when you look at it that way, is this, I don't know if this is
necessarily any different. All it says is that we need to make sure our systems have these in them
because in fact, it would actually make it better than not having the system at all. At least that's

(23:53):
my immediate feeling about this and how I also feel about kind of like legal systems like government
systems and so on that they need to, that they're, they're kind of doing the thing that's already
happening. I think you could even look at abortion in a very similar vein around this where it's
like, yeah, I mean, you can have all of this in that, but people still did have, still made,

(24:17):
you know, had abortions even if it wasn't legal, right? And it's not, and does it make sense to
criminalize it that way essentially. So even though this is, it wouldn't be criminalizing to kill
yourself, I think that we recognize that we don't want it to be, we want people to be able to do it in
that. I know it's weird to say, say, this way, but like you want people to be able to not suffer

(24:42):
in their death just as much as you don't want them to suffer in their life. So we don't want
either of those things. And we also want people who genuinely do feel this way and want to go through
with this, you know, not to end up essentially like having a horrible experience and then, you know,
failing in this endeavor and then being forced to continue to suffer with even more safeguard

(25:07):
to put on, be like, to prevent them from doing certain things, you know, in the way that you would
like a prisoner who tries to take their own life, for example. So yeah, it's just, it is, it's very
messy and I don't want to pretend it isn't, but that's my like the reason why I think this makes sense
to me is because I would rather it be something that has oversight than something that doesn't.

(25:27):
And I'd rather have people being able to talk about it openly with the knowledge that there is
kind of a normative recognition socially that yes, this is a thing that we recognize and that we're
not just going to like, we don't have a load of people like thinking these things and not saying
anything. So yeah, like absolutely, I've got to listen to all of these things. I'm glad that any

(25:49):
amendments coming out of this is, you know, any amendments, I think are good amendments on that basis.
Obviously unless they're terrible amendments, but I think that these worries are very reasonable.
And if anything, these worries are just kind of improving the, the, I don't know, like the kind of

(26:10):
filter and system by which we make a bill like this work. I also just want to point out
before we move on now that in other countries, there is, there are versions of this and in many
cases like versions that go further and they, and so we have a lot to work off and learn from in

(26:30):
this regard. This isn't just, you know, as much as I think, I think this discussion makes a lot more
sense when this is like one of the few, the only times it happens and if we, if this project was
like very new, I think that we can have a lot more, I think this conversation makes a lot more
sense and we can, I think very realistically be a little bit more worried by doing that we have a

(26:52):
lot to learn from from other systems being used in other countries. They already do something
as significant, if not more significant than this as within their legal system.
All the pitfalls, all of the kind of benefits and the kind of things that need to do, need to happen
in order for a system like this to work. I definitely know that my dad would, I've talked with my

(27:16):
dad about this sort of thing and I know that he definitely would want to have that control when
he gets to a certain point for himself. So I know from a personal experience that, you know,
and I fully back that he feels that way and I can see why. So I know people who can, who are thinking

(27:38):
about this, who are for about this and want this to be a thing. So I'm not, I can't really back down
like two significantly from, from my, from my, I agree with this thing existing, but I just, yeah,
I agree that it should have as much oversight as possible effectively. I just, I'm happy with
the biggest amount of oversight on something like this. Yeah. I, I, I hate the fact that I'm making a

(28:01):
football, I'm not gonna do it right now, but like, in football, we've seen automatic
off sides coming to play across multiple leagues in Europe and it works. It's very simple.
There's camera set up, there's some of those sides, referee will be notified that's offside. Easy.

(28:22):
In the UK, in the Premier League, we decided to do it using the VAR, which means that people have to
draw lines to check if there's something's offside. Now, the system was already made and it's made
to a high standard. All we need to do is take it and apply it to the Premier League. No, we have to try

(28:46):
and do our own way, to try and make it somehow better but clearly worse. And overcomplicate
something ridiculously simple. I am definitely afraid that we're going to do the exact same thing
with assisted dying, that we're going to somehow make it incredibly inaccessible, or we're going to

(29:13):
leave massive, massive flaws and gaps in the system that allow cases like coerced assisted suicide
to happen. Now, I'm not the most religious person in the world, but I pray that it is not the case,
and I pray that we actually learn from our European, I would say comrades, but in a political sense,

(29:37):
not quite, from our political, from our European counterparts, because we can't fuck this up.
We just can't. But somehow, I feel like this country will. I don't remember what the actual date was,
but I remember when the, when it started coming on the news that there was, that the idea of this being
soon is not happening. Like, as we kind of discussed earlier, like this will occur years from now

(30:05):
before we start seeing this even being possible. I think even as late as I'm fully pulling
work like dates out of nowhere, but like I remember thinking that it's like, oh yeah, like maybe two
or three years from now is when we might start even seeing a version of this existing in our hospital

(30:26):
somewhere. You know what I mean? Like this isn't even existing all over the country. The project
will take time to like form because I have to go through all of the political legal process and
then it has to go through kind of putting the project in places where it makes the most sense and then
dispersing it beyond that a little bit. I know it's going to take time. That's not the thing. I am

(30:48):
more along the lines of it will take time, of course, and like no shit, but this scope to fucking up is
to exist. Yeah, I actually think that the two sides you gave as well probably represents the two
factions of people and how they feel about this. I think a lot of people who probably aren't so keen

(31:08):
on this from the jump are probably the people who are going think of all of the flaws that might
exist within this. And then I think the opposite side of the people who actually for it might have
the cynicism of let's not make this inaccessible. And I think those are actually the two sort of
those are the two sort of like discussion. Those are the two natural like talking points that

(31:34):
eventually get a force. Hopefully these are kind of like the evolutionary pressures so to speak of
the bill and of these this whole concept towards the kind of median in between that will be difficult
at some level to just make happen because it kind of should be difficult. You know like it shouldn't

(31:56):
be easy, but it shouldn't be to the point where no one can use it because and I think naturally that
is I mean even if it doesn't start out it probably it probably won't start out in like a perfect
median. So probably start one side of the other. But then I think even past that point assuming that
we still have it let's say 10 years from now I think that then that shifts will occur socially in

(32:23):
the discussion of it and that we will probably approach towards a better median over time. There's
at least my reading of how these things work anyway of like how society like functions when something
new occurs in it and so on. Yeah. Again like it's one of those things I was like I let go.
Let's get someone's going to fuck up somewhere but you know it's what it is really. Again like

(32:47):
we know this is going to take a while. I imagine that this will be a private thing first as well
so and then it will be on the NHS we still have that service and we'll go from them most likely.
Yeah I'm trying not to be too cynical about it but yeah I agree.

(33:09):
Yeah. Now on to other news. Please take it away. Oh Jesus Christ. So back in the day by that I mean we're
approaching 10 or so years ago secondary schools especially in London had a lot of character to them
personally. There was different schools and the behaviour was very much varied so the schools

(33:34):
that I went to were I met Joe now became more the Academy style school recently. It's not quite an
academy but it's a very Academy style school but before it was just a very large part of varying
different behaviours had a really bad reputation but it had character you know.

(33:56):
Is it in a academy now? Sorry just one more. Yeah it's not on Academy. Yeah okay just want to
check that in case it's something that I'm like missing on. It's since I've been there a little bit.
Yeah so academies have become prevalent in London and they've taken over schools which are
deemed as like failing or good or just in good locations and these academies are a lot

(34:21):
unto themselves. But I think with the learning trust and the learning trust helps dictate
pretty much how schools operate in how schools run. So if for example if we are a school that's part
of the learning trust like a public-spundered school if there's a complaint made and it goes high
enough the learning trust will get involved. Academies are independent so they don't have those

(34:45):
regulations at all they're not to worry about anything they still get the offset inspections
but they don't have to really action on certain aspects of how they do things.
Now Mossborn is an academy that has been around for a number of years and they've expanded.
There used to be I remember there just been one Mossborn school in East London in Hackney and then

(35:09):
they started expanded to which there's three or four different schools as well as primary schools
and now schools in Essex as well under the name of Mossborn the Mossborn Federation.
And they are known for being extremely strict, military-esque in how they operate and attaining

(35:31):
high grades and students going on to get into major universities like you know,
Russell Root universities and things like that. Now these this model of school has been hailed
as being you know the best and we have this weird fetish of disciplinarianism if that's even a word.

(35:53):
And very militant based authoritarianism as a way to educate young people.
It does not and has never really been proven to consistently work especially because of how
varied young people's minds can be. We all learn in different ways we all

(36:14):
develop in different ways as well which means that it's very very difficult to have this one
size fits all approach to learning. Academies in that regard are very regressive.
Now I've done all the whole the whole deal. Mossborn Academy has had multiple.
We're talking tens to hundreds of complaints and safeguarding concerns about how teachers and

(36:41):
members of staff treat children. Now I without doxing myself live very close to one of the schools listed
and I've seen it firsthand. I've seen it. I've also had the sadness of working in that school as well.
It is, I've described in the article from from the Guardian, it is diabolical. We have teachers

(37:08):
on a power trip. So I was per the Guardian. 130 parents of children at the school attended a
emergency meeting to put their concerns to counsellors, including alligators that children
were suffering anxiety due to tough discipline and shouting from teachers.
And that a child was left all day in wet clothes after he was refused permission to go to the toilet.

(37:33):
Now they've also been knowing it is making, well, a failing to make reasonable adjustments
for children with special educational needs. This is literally everything that we claim to
want to fight and go against. We want children to learn, we want children to develop, and here we are.

(37:57):
We're still using outdated methods and we now have teachers in the year 2025 being accused
of emotional abuse towards young people. Now it is very, very, very important that I stress this.
A lot of parents view this method of teaching the discipline-based approach as being the best approach.

(38:25):
It's not, and it really hasn't ever really been. The best approach is an approach that
takes into account the feelings and the opinions of the young people within it. 300
separate accounts of alleged emotional harm at most born schools, in Essex and in Hackney.

(38:48):
And we have still done literally nothing. The article I posted is from the second of March.
We're recording this on the second of March. There's articles that I also post from November of last
year. I'm probably one from I believe the year before. Unchecked power tripping by failed BTEC

(39:17):
military sergeants, cosplaying as teachers is what will end up with things like the suicide rate in
young people, increasing, that need to turn to things like alcohol and drugs, increasing.
cases like bullying, because guess what, if you pee yourself and you're left in wet clothes,

(39:40):
children can be cruel and they will take the piss. Did you see what I did there?
It is still a fundamental issue that we have still managed to break a child's human right
to be safe and a child's human right to access to an education. Now, I've been going on for a while,

(40:08):
but it is equally saddening to see that in some cases teachers and members of SLT, which is senior
leadership teams, have been aware that the child they are yelling at is seeking those getting
treatment at places like camps, which is for children and adolescents, especially doing mental

(40:28):
health concerns, mental health, mental illnesses, and they've still continued to up the pressure
and to treat them, well, like how they view them, subhuman, that's what you've done.
I want to, by the way, stress something that you mentioned, which is about the bullying.
I think it says a lot, maybe I'm starting the centers wrong, to me there is something that,

(40:56):
like, I don't know how much this really gets talked about, but I find it strange that the idea,
by the way, disciplinary anism is a thing, is a word, that the way that teachers interact with students
towards them is in some way not them effectively representing how they want them to engage with each

(41:22):
other. So how do I put this? You imagine you have, you have like an adult who is engaging with you.
Now, I don't really, from young person to young person, in fact from person to person even,
how someone interacts with you and how you relate to someone of authority and how that makes you

(41:45):
think about how you should be, isn't necessarily depends a lot on the nature of that relationship.
There are people at school from my memory who, when an adult engage with them at school,
ultimately, they're not really listening to the adult or they think, "Oh, the adult is just,
is tripping basically, is just like kind of talking nonsense." When they're interacting with them,

(42:11):
like, overbearingly or very strictly, but I think a lot of kids are genuinely made terrified by adults.
And I think it's odds to think that somehow a teacher interacting with a student in a way that is
bullying or incredibly negative or puts them down or even just tells them you are not allowed to go

(42:31):
to the bathroom to the toilet, right? The idea that, and which by the way is a ridiculous thing,
like, I just don't understand why that is so crazy. Don't get me right, I can see why,
like if the kids were taking the piss, I can see why you would go, "Okay, well, I'm going to
be very careful about how I do this, but I'm not going to, but the idea of being like, "No, you cannot go

(42:55):
to the toilet, it just seems ridiculous to me." But that somehow, like, that children won't
innately kind of add that into their world view of how they should relate, not only to the specific
people that a teacher reacts towards, but also just, that is how adults should be towards

(43:18):
others. Because let me be clear, I don't think, and I think this is for a few reasons, I don't think
that anyone really notices the way then adult is, especially when you're an adult, the way an adult
is with a child is really any different than the way an adult interacts with another adult.
In the sense that when I think of like, "Okay, so me as an adult talking to a child, do I think

(43:47):
that somehow, as an adult, I might have responsibilities to say something that's necessary for the child,
but I don't think to myself that I can somehow talk down to the child. I don't think to myself,
you know, because to me, it's ridiculous, "Why would I think it would be okay to talk down to an

(44:10):
adult? Why do I think it would be okay to talk down to a child as a result?" And when we say
child, we just mean like, obviously someone younger than an adult, like, it's obviously everyone's
a child. What I mean is like, you know, someone who is younger, why that means I then get to talk
down to them. Just as much as I think it would be ridiculous for me to talk down to someone who's
older than me, you know, on the basis that like, "Oh, they're out of touch or anything like that,

(44:33):
you don't know these people." And obviously, like, I have to respect the fact that, you know,
you're a thinking person with ideas and beliefs and so on, and we might disagree about something,
but maybe we can come to a conclusion. I'm not going to, you know, I'm not going to be a sh*t out
about it. I just think it's ridiculous as, and you might think, "Okay, well, an adult would
might, should see a difference or whatever," which, "Okay, I don't agree with you." But then I think to

(44:56):
myself, "Okay, but how does a child interpret the way an adult interacts with a child?" Does a child
think that they should interact with, do young people think that they should interact with young
people differently than the way an adult does? And then when those young people become adults,
how does the, do the young people becoming adults suddenly think, "Oh, well, now I'm the adult,

(45:20):
so I get to be sh*tty to younger people." But now I must be, in fact, very different and be really
and be a completely different kind of person when interacting with other adults of my age,
which again is a ridiculous concept. But why is it that we think that that would occur?
Generational, like, trauma is a real thing. It's been documented in lots of different ways,

(45:41):
biological and social, like, fit psychological, you know, that kind of thing. But I find it
odd to think that, like, the people that grew up in the Victorian, like, the really strict
Victorian schools, for example, back in, you know, the Victorian period, weren't, didn't end up being,
like, interacting with people differently as a result of that being their education and their

(46:04):
experience. Because, I mean, you would expect that it would be. You expect that people's views are
changed by, like, people in authority positions telling them how they need to be. And you're already
going to a school for learning. So it seems deeply concerning to me that people might expect that
there should be a very different relationship, or the idea that this, the relationship you have with,

(46:30):
like, a teacher is something that is so different from, like, another adult in a position. I mean,
again, we talked about this. We talked about, like, the young black teacher assistant. And we've,
we talked about, like, the, like, coach, or, you know, or, like, you know, maybe, like, football coach,

(46:51):
or, like, you know, it's kind of, like, outside of school, mentor position that adults will end up
with with children. And we don't see the, we don't expect them to necessarily, or I think we expect
generally speaking a little bit more kind of familiarity, a bit more, like, case by case,
recognition of the individual and so on. And I think the reason is because that's largely,

(47:14):
because we don't have things like curriculums that need to be hit. And the, and this pressure from
above that isn't put down on these schools, just as much as, you know, we don't, you don't need insight,
obviously. We've had examples of coaches being shit and other sorts of people. But I think
that there's a kind of a recognition that, like, people not in these positions are able to,

(47:38):
are able to recognize that, no, it would be ridiculous for me to, like, not at least see the
worth of this individual who I'm trying to discipline, right? To do something where you're putting the
kid down is it is, is this completely, like, fucking moon talk that I don't understand. And that
really, like, stirs me and I guess is the bigger issue, that always a big issue I find personally

(48:04):
about this whole thing. Before we even get into the fact that, you know, it's this,
Mosborn group and academies and everything like that is so, it is so disrespectful. I don't know how
to, like, go on to you, but I don't know how much you want to speak on that point. For me, it's more,
like, we, just using like the Victorian schools and all that stuff, right? I remember, I said, I remember,

(48:30):
it happens all the time. Like, even like when we coach in football, I'll hear coach to say things,
like, when I was a coach, when I was a player, my coach used to make us run laps and that's why I'm
like, how I am today. I'm tougher than these kids of really weak nowadays and kids are really soft.
I'm like, given that you're remembering, like, really tough moments and you're harking that as like

(48:53):
a moment of you being tough while deriding kids who are being soft. Your job as a coach is to make
the kids tough, but you're not making them do laps though. Like, there's a reason why they're not doing
laps. Like, if it made you tough and you're saying, but this is a good thing for you, why you're not making
them do laps? Oh, because the parents are complain. Really? Is that why didn't your parents complain?

(49:18):
Like, oh, maybe because running laps isn't that good, do you know what I thought? Like, you know,
like things like that. And of course running laps is a very good thing for cardiovascular health.
More running laps excessively is what I'm like pointing towards. And
whenever I see things like this as well, like, oh, I used to get like the cane in the school. I'm like,

(49:41):
yeah, like, do you want to know? We know because it's too soft nowadays.
Well, so why did I get rid of them? Like, no, because the kids didn't get rid of it,
because they decided to get rid of it. Like, somebody else did, of, so,
pumps, obviously, your age did. But you got whipped because it was okay at the time. But guess what?

(50:07):
You're psychologically scarred from that, which is why you make it a good thing. This is not your,
like, moment of look at how tough I am. This is your moment of trying to cope with the fact that
you are severely hurt by this being whipped with a cane's a traumatic event, you know?
Yeah, I was going to say also anecdotes are garbage for like determining whether

(50:33):
something, whether a kind of whole system of, like, punishment and things like that are actually,
like, reasonable in, you know, to have in schooling and things like that. Like, we're not good at
self-assessing how good, like, a particular system was for ourselves because you wouldn't have
even the knowledge at the time to be able to understand that to kind of, for that to not, you know,

(50:56):
I mean, like, you're looking at it from this perspective you have now of who you are. Whereas,
like, yeah, you're probably one of the many who are just kind of in, like, who are like that.
And you don't know how it's affected you. Well, you're like that despite the fact that something
pretty bad happened to you, you know? Yeah, if you want to, yeah. Also, you calling yourself a
success story, but remember, your foundation is built upon the fact that somebody had to physically

(51:20):
beat you into submission. That is bad. Sorry. Like, that's not a good thing. So in the same way that,
you know, we read this article and we have like, his thing, we actually went through this.
Me and you went through this version of this. One of the things that was described in
the article by the Guardian is the teacher described attending, threatening assemblies, which

(51:45):
students were told about the long list of rules and punishments. And they said, some students are
panic attacks. Now, I remember having a panic attack when I went through this assembly, like,
six or seven times in my school life, because I moved schools quite a lot as well. You know,
I remember getting one of these when I went to Petty and the long list of rules and I was like,

(52:06):
I can't keep up because like, we have to have our ties really high. And if they were too low,
we were given a clip on, then all of our buttons had to be done up to the very top. Okay, cool.
But I'm really banned to heat and like, I need to breathe. I like, buck it, nope, have to be tough.

(52:28):
So breathing is not an option. And then you had to always wear, like, you couldn't walk around and
just like a vest, not vest, and just a shirt and tie. You have to have your blaze or anything to jump
around. Fuck Jesus. Okay. Heat. I don't like heat at all, you know. It'd better be tough then.

(52:50):
And then it's of course, shut up to be tucked in. Come on, like, go to fuck your finger talk,
do you joke bananas? No, you know, you have to look presentable. Okay. Oh, and by the way, school trousers,
none of that like dark colored jeans, school trousers, and they have to be of appropriate length as
well. Oh, and if you're a girl, make sure your skirt isn't too short because, because we're not creepy,

(53:19):
you are like, it's this. And then you can't walk with more than two people in the hallway. And then
you have to make sure that you're not covering up the whole stairwell. So you have to go in a single file.
And that rule makes sense, right? Safety don't fall into each other. But you'd be surprised when

(53:41):
people walk at different speeds and how that works. And then you can't like walk over a certain speed.
And then when you enter your classroom, you have to stand behind your desk until the teacher sit down,
which is a rule which is always fine, funny because every teacher would forget to tell us to sit down.
Like, it's, it's, these are the things that like just make no sense. Because what happened is

(54:05):
I bet you they'll sail these things, but the teachers themselves forget half of them. And then they'll
reinforce them when they need to get a bit of like control back. And it's like, yeah, I get it. But still,
I don't think I left secondary school with a sense of discipline. I think I left there with an

(54:28):
overall hatred of the idea of what, what adults say is must go. Because it's all the things I hate the
most, respect your elders. No, because you're fucked. Like, I'm not, I'm not respecting you because you're
older than me. You don't like as I found out the easy way, just because you're older than me,

(54:49):
doesn't mean more than me. You might have seen, like to be honest, you might have not even seen more
the world than me. You maybe even never left like, like this country. So yeah, maybe you had
experiences of life, maybe, maybe you've dealt with heartbreak, maybe you've dealt with death, maybe you've
dealt with, I don't know, being incompetent for something. But maybe you have, but the idea that

(55:12):
just because you say something, I have to do it because you are over, of a standing in a building.
Nah, that's why I was taught, I was taught not to listen to anyone unless they can actually,
you know, have some sort of standing and respect for the space to reign and respect for the people
which they're trying to teach. And guess what? This happened to me, I became pretty good at

(55:34):
working with younger people. Why? Because if I talk like a fucking dickhead, they might
be quiet and listen. Cool. But they're gonna leave thinking I'm a fucking dickhead, which means
nothing I say has an impact apart from the fact that they don't like me because I'm a fucking dickhead.
If I then go instead and I have conversations with them and actually build a understanding of,

(55:59):
hey, you guys are gonna respect me, but guess what? I respect you too. They might dislike how I speak,
they might dislike things about me, but the end of the day they'll go, yeah, he's not the worst,
and also he's not a dickhead. And I'm learning a decent amount of English now. Of my sin men,

(56:19):
Jesus, it can't be a boring book. If a hair kid said I'm a shoot him, but you know, if it might be a
boring book, but it's palatable, I could deal with it because my teacher is in a dickhead, because that's
what kills it. I hate Shakespeare. Why? I was taught it really badly. But a teacher who's more focused on
me catching up and me writing the right answers rather than me actually understanding the work of

(56:43):
literature, the piece of literature that is in front of us. Mid-sub was nightdream. I hate it. Burn that
shit. But of my sin men, I was taught that really well, was made to go over different scripts from the
film. Hougas, Cowas Curly, Describe Curly's character. Okay, more. I remember the teacher saying,

(57:04):
okay, more. And I'll say something else about Curly. Okay, more. Just what can you get out of me in a
positive way? Of my sin men is one of my favorite pieces of work ever. Just like that. So yeah,
saying that staff are humiliating students, it's a heartbreaking thing. And the poor year sevens,

(57:27):
you know, the five, the five foot one, like everyone's massive, and they spend half their time walking
into things and people. And their voice is all like this. And to be like bullied by adults and older
children is just sad. So I truly hope that I come across a multiple teacher. And I'm a talk to them

(57:57):
as if, you know, I'm on their side, but yeah, these kids need discipline. And they'll be like, yeah,
I made this kid wear his pants and then I'm a slap him across the face.
I mean, just to give a little insight as well, like, Mossball was one of my top pick for a school
when I was looking around at schools. Yeah. You know, like back in 20 2007, which is kind of crazy,

(58:26):
thinking about it like that, but, you know, it's too far, so too far, so Nate. So, you know, it,
this at least to me is quite is, to us, it's like the fact, because it's a local thing, like, we just
have like a kind of relationship to this. And I'm just reading some of these things, like,

(58:46):
it's rules, including no special hands, shakes, no hugging and no gathering in large groups.
You said like such arcane, such arcane, like, ruling concepts, that disciplinarianism really fits,
because it's just the idea of make of controlling everything. Actually, you've got to also just sound
sort of like, I know. I'ma say what it is, and I'll be a guy who, in my case, if you'd like, race,

(59:11):
something like, dick, I'll put that. It just sounds really weird and racist.
Yeah, like the special handshake thing is very much like,
Oh, you can't, you can't, you can't, you can't fist bump, man. Oh, you have to have a nice firm, strong
handshake. Guess what's going to happen, right? Kids are going to take that and they're going to be
like, huh, school's making me do this, like proper firm handshake with everyone. And it's forced.

(59:36):
I know this because at my football club, they say you have to handshake all the coaches. And I
make a point of shaking the hands of certain kids and fist bumping some of them and they're like, no,
they have to shake their hands, ball, and there's a reason why I don't want to shake all their hands. Why?
Because they're really like anxious and just like, like, it's really awkward when someone doesn't
want to shake your hand, walks up to you and shake your hand because they're trying their best to not

(01:00:00):
looking at eye while also looking at eye. I don't want to look in their eye, because I'm going to like,
end up, like just secondhand embarrassment, like just, just fist bumping me and walk away.
Please. Yeah. No, I feel the same way. It's so okay. It's so ridiculous. It's so overbearing.
There is this very much just like power, like fantasy that's going through some of these

(01:00:26):
people and that seems to be the case from anonymous things said by former teachers.
So, you know, it's such a, like as a parent at the very least, I wouldn't.
They had kids. No, sorry. I parents I would like to at least think of this not in the sense of like,

(01:00:55):
you know, obviously like they're, they're going to dislike this sort of thing, but I think what's
interesting like looking through this article as well is how there really isn't anything that the
parents have against the idea of their being a school which has like, you know, that is very like,
that has the kind of emphasis on like kind of discipline and so on. But there's this clear

(01:01:18):
line and boundary with being being like pushed past for really no reason beyond essentially like trying to,
I mean, it's just like incredibly over-policing, you know? It's like, it's like we don't want even like a
small distraction of something to occur. So, we're going to, so like we, it's it's almost like

(01:01:42):
stamping out like creativatives, you know? I mean, or like the ability for them to feel and at this
point at the top where the education secretary, Bridget Phillips, and told a conference of educational
trust that children's, the children feeling a sense of belonging at school was just as important as
attaining good grades. I only shit. I mean, just a sense of belonging seems to be like one of the

(01:02:03):
most important things you need because I think, you know, probably like the absolute majority
of reasons why kids don't do well at school is entirely because of that line. Like, I mean, if not
all the counts almost are like, you know, are something like that. I mean, for me that was like,

(01:02:24):
you know, why I did struggle at school as well, you know? Like the struggle was I had with different,
but I, you know, and why is that? And so on. Yeah, exactly. Like I can't think of like a more
apt reality, like reality check of why. And I just can't see how some of these, these kind of
like, disciplarian attitudes that are so over commit, like so overburdening and so on are just like,

(01:02:51):
are expected to be, you know, are expected to be like, oh, it's worth it. And it's like, no, I just
can't, it's like, it's so easy to just push someone into a position where they will hate learning and
education for the rest of their lives as soon as they're allowed to leave it. I, I, I, 100%. I mean,

(01:03:12):
this is, this is why so many people hate maths because it's taught shit. And I say that as a person
who loves maths, I know it's taught shit. Like I, the way I, when I was teaching kids, maths in different
contexts, I'm very, very particular about how I do it. I'm very particular about how I engage with
the topic because I used to teach like people in my class, math stuff all the time. People used to

(01:03:37):
ask me questions, I go over and help them. And it became so normalized that the teacher was just like,
yeah, sure, because I got good at it, right? And it's, and I can see just how bad it is sometimes.
And how, when I wasn't allowed to do that, how significantly people didn't understand what was
going on and never got an explanation, like never got an explanation that was like actually attempting

(01:03:58):
to try and help them. You know, I mean, so it's like, okay, clearly it doesn't, but clearly there is
a, there's a breaking in not just the way, not just in the way that some teachers are with, with
kids, but also just in the way that like, I think the system that necessarily like creates this,
this, this checklist essentially, which is then used to determine, you know,

(01:04:22):
whether a school is good or not, when in fact, actually having a school where just the kids want,
like feel safe and secure being there is probably the most important aspect of it, like,
fuck grades at a certain level, but like, to a certain extent, but like you should want your kids to feel
happy, like when they're not with you, you should want them to be happy and safe. And I just

(01:04:48):
don't understand how they could not be like your utmost, you know, uh, desire for your children.
They won't have to be at school. That's really it. Like, I wasn't happy at school. School is
supposed to be fun. It's where you go to learn. Well, that's why you're a miserable kind.
Yeah, it's also why you think the work can be absolute shite and that's okay. And it's like,
no, I don't think it, that's true at all. I think that's literally why we people hate their life so

(01:05:14):
much or why, like, and or why people have these like incredibly archaic interpretations about how
people, I think a lot of top six stuff comes from this perspective anyway. Yeah, let's move on,
because we're incredibly angry. We're very angry people anyway. Yeah, just repressed.
That's it. We've already gone like, well, well, well, well, well, an hour or think, okay? And I think

(01:05:38):
this time we now move to old school city worlds is time for the journal.
[Music]

(01:06:11):
Yeah, it's time for the journal. Yeah, we talk about our lives and stuff. I'm going to start because
yeah, things happen when Jones and Holiday, I was worried that it would be like no episode for a while
and there wouldn't have been, it would have been like a really long, prolonged period of no episodes

(01:06:33):
and I felt like, you know what, I might as well do this. And I got back home from something,
I can't remember what I was and I thought, I just need to say something and I did it. And that was the
out of the cupager. I've planned this show for like 10 or so years with different guests and all
of stuff. I just kept in up with thinking it and I was like, oh, it's not going to work, it's not

(01:06:54):
going to work. I said, you know what, just do it now. I did it. Some reason slanted the whole of
the Midlands and I'll do it all again because who cares about Smethic and I, yeah, raise it to the
ground. Anyway, it was fun. And I thank you for your support with the episode. It was really nice

(01:07:15):
and it was good to discuss things in a very punchy form because when you buy yourself, you don't
really need to go into massive detail about things you just, just kind of pinch it through, you know,
you just enjoy it. And then I had the episode of Ryan, which was one of the few things
when the few projects have been a part of I guess, well, actually listen to it about a good halfway

(01:07:41):
through, I like even when I'm editing this show, I don't listen to all of it. I hate my own voice.
But you got halfway through this and it was incredibly emotional. The feedback on it was really good.
And it's like, even Joe, you mentioned that you enjoyed it a lot as well.
Yeah, I've listened to all of the Alex Kepert show, I love it.

(01:08:01):
Yeah, of course you fucking would. But yeah, like, you know, the solo one you'd have to listen to
be, if I have it, listen to the Ryan episode with the Mospit Danny, I really recommend you do is
a thoroughly, for me anyway, a thoroughly enjoyable making it, but the feedback I've gotten
about the episodes is thoroughly enjoyable to listen to as well.
Just for the sake of people listening to this episode, do you want to just very quickly say what

(01:08:29):
the intent of it is, like, the compared to like, what we're doing now?
Oh, or just like, I think every now and then, because there is no intent. I think whenever Joe goes
away and holiday, this show already exists until further notice, the intent of it is there will be
different guests from different parts of different walks of life, or just me being very build by

(01:08:53):
asking, doing, how, what we do for CD-Wheels, just in the scheme of an independent show, it's not
going to have its own feed unless it gets big enough to that it has to have its own feed, do it along
the side of CD-Wheels. I don't see that happening for a while, I just want to enjoy, to be honest,

(01:09:14):
CD-Wheels is number one. So this is like a filler, it's like a spin-off show that exists in the universe.
But it could end up being a much bigger thing as you said, because you never know where you're
going to go with it, because I know, I know, like, from history, like us talking about the kind of

(01:09:36):
ideas you had for it and where it could go. And so, I mean, even some of those things end up
happening, that would be awesome. It's in the whale verse. Yeah, in the whale verse, okay.
God. We have to come up with a name than that, but let's let's do it.
Alongside that, happiness project, which is my poetry album, I've started to do the

(01:10:00):
joiner Lucas approach to releasing an album. I've dropped two singles on Spotify, you can listen to them now.
Again, appreciate the support on them already. Two, but only silver one. Damn.
Yeah, I forgot to send it to you. So I've done a love is, which is like the first ever poem of ever
recorded and the version that you listen to, Spotify, also in platforms is actually the first

(01:10:23):
time I've ever done, like, poetry properly, like that in front of people. And well, first record
anyway. And yeah, it's, I figured I'll put that version up as the album version. So that's a
single. And then the other one is A, B, she's right. A block. A, B, she writes his block,
barely speak English today. And that's another poem, which is like same day, same night. I just put it

(01:10:47):
into two separate things and they're both work that I'm happy with. I'd rather not have to perform
or do ever again, because that is from 22 and I've moved past it a lot, but this album has been delayed
the fuck and finally getting out in some way she performed is good. I've spoken a lot this episode,

(01:11:09):
which is really weird. It's not only the other way around, but we're running a little bit.
No, you can't say that every episode. I will now. Yeah, that's asked me.
Well, by the way, was the recording of this, was that from one that I was at or was that from a different,
was that from one of the in-litchages that I wasn't at? I'm just curious. Not remember. I want to say

(01:11:34):
you weren't at that one? I think I wasn't just because I'm thinking about that night and I think it was
a different. I think I remember the set being different than the way it sounded when I was
visiting to the first one, to love is. Yeah, so you're passing over to me, was that what was happening
there? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I just kind of wanted to talk about this, I think, because I mean,

(01:12:00):
alongside the fact that I was on holiday in reality, I was all, I've also felt incredibly bad. I've
kind of talked about this now. I've talked about it so Kessas and I've talked about this a little bit
with my mum, I haven't gone over in detail. It's probably the, it's absolutely the worst I felt
since I started working at this new job and kind of a little bit worse than even like slightly before

(01:12:24):
that, depending on how I kind of perceive these things, it was really bad. It did affect my work
and it's made me now want to have a conversation with my work. I mean, I have to have a conversation
with my realistically, but I have to have a conversation now about all of it, scheduling,

(01:12:47):
like what days I'm kind of willing to work/how much I can work. I mean, that's kind of the
bad part is that I think it's more likely I'm just going to have to work less than I can change
that much about certain days because unfortunately I work on weekends. I work on Fridays and weekends,
you know, so I mean, that doesn't really matter actually for the way my job works because I work in

(01:13:11):
the mornings, but I more importantly I work on the weekends, right? And it's been, while I've really
enjoyed the kind of waking up early, like that's not been a huge issue for me, it does, it has
been more recently difficult because I've struggled a little bit with sleeping, which I think is
kind of a sad thing in part, which is why I think some of this and why I've kind of noted it down,

(01:13:34):
it's like sad being the sort of the blame thing, even though again, we, I think while we talk about
sad and we talk about it like being the reason it's not quite, that's that's kind of a weird way of
saying it because it almost makes it seem like sad is like a person who's doing something like I'm
being targeted by sad and it's like that's not really how that works. Sad is like a list of things

(01:13:57):
associated with a time period of the year, you know, and related to other sorts of, you know,
symptoms in relationship to, you know, an underlying difficulty or issue or whatever, you know,
including the fact that I've, you know, I've bought some vitamin D tablets and I'm having extra on

(01:14:19):
top of the vitamins that we're already having just to make sure that that's not being a problem.
I'm trying to make even though today I am up later, it's because I'm not working tomorrow.
And I, I do want to try and like be going to sleep earlier and eating a lot of bears, I'm trying
some stuff. I also know that, you know, there was a lot of like kind of psychological, like once I went

(01:14:41):
down, kill, once it, once that hit hit me, the mind then kept going, you know, I mean like the
mind really like kind of fucked things up for me and caused a lot of issues and made me very, very
difficult to get a hold of or and make me very unproductive and made me just, you know, not someone

(01:15:02):
that you can maybe not feel like me at all, you know, like I felt really much like a hollow husk.
I haven't been eating properly recently, so I genuinely feel I'm only now kind of physically
getting back to a state of what feels like health, like I feel like I ate, you know, a meal, a day at most,

(01:15:23):
kind of thing on some days. So that's good. It's actually also the reason why that I'm not going to do
that I'm not going to be fasting because it is currently that period of time, or it's about to be,
sorry, but I can't actually remember because I already made this decision, I'm not going to
do it, so I'm not being paid. Yeah, that's why I thought it was even the fourth of March or it already

(01:15:46):
happened, I just couldn't remember which one, because I was like, oh, it's like basically it's the
month of March, it's like the first to the 30 if I think. So yeah, I'm not, so I'm not doing it
this year, which is a shame because I did want to, but like with the way that I am, I'm just like,
I can't bring myself, like I'm literally, I literally need to like eat and probably gain a bit

(01:16:11):
of loss weight. Which again, it's also sad because I was on holiday and had a really nice time,
and I feel like would definitely actually help to me at the time, but also
shows that this was definitely like something kind of bubbling in the background, so to speak.
Luckily things are getting better. We kind of talked a little bit before we started about this,

(01:16:34):
and maybe it's in fact like kind of as things get better is when you're, when you are able to be
more self-destructive potentially because you start gaining the energy and so you come out of the
shit times, but actually you're more capable of doing things that are generally self-destructive
for yourself because you now have the energy to act. And you know, in, in, or is almost a kind of

(01:16:56):
zen of depression, if you will, which is more of a joke really, but kind of appeals to a concept
which does exist where you can feel like depressed, but at the same time you almost feel like
you're depressed in such a way where you're not going to kind of where you can kind of just,
you can get on that a certain, in a very kind of like suffering way, as opposed to in a way

(01:17:20):
that can be like largely self-destructive until you eventually suffer so much that you do do
things self-destructive. Yeah, I don't want to over bear on that point because I don't agree with
half the things I'll say on it. But yeah, I kind of want to point this out mostly because I don't know
how people perceive me and you when they listen to us, I was kind of thinking about this recently,

(01:17:42):
a while I want to talk about it, that maybe because we talk about this and maybe because especially
for a while we have sort of said that we're generally doing better and it seems like well, we're,
you know, we're doing a podcast and stuff surely, I mean one, I don't do basically anything really
for the pop. I don't do any like work outside of the recording. But like, you know, I think it's easy

(01:18:07):
from like a, whether you think of it as parosocial or otherwise that like, I think it's easy just hear
people, it kind of disembodied in this way that that make you kind of look at and because we're
giving some sense of personality that we want to be heard or whatever we're trying to just be
informative or whatever that we can come across as being like in a better state that we are.

(01:18:27):
We're, I mean obviously we're human and every like creator of anything would tell you this,
but I want to be clear that I have had it really rough and I have had issues with work and stuff
like that and it's been a big thing. It's been a big to do and it's, it's really, and as a,

(01:18:50):
and it's made me really worried somewhat about how much I can rely on myself to a certain extent to be
independent, like it's definitely kind of given me a, I don't, I think right now because I'm in a
slightly, in a better state, I shouldn't say slightly better, I am in a better state.
It had, it, that I, I recognize like cognitively like yes and I am definitely able to do this thing,

(01:19:19):
but you know I can also see just how much worse it could have gone and how you know what if I,
what if I essentially destroyed my ability to go to work and what if, what if like I just never
went to work and shit like that and just gave up and then just didn't say anything like with the
avoidant behavior patterns I've had and so on where I'm like shit okay this could be like and

(01:19:41):
thinking to myself like okay can I really you know, I'm, I, you know, the kind of statistics about
people who have autism especially around their ability to hold like a full-time work is you know the
the statistics are quite, are really low, they're pretty abysmal and you know and so that's

(01:20:05):
a little bit worrying I guess is that is is what I want to say and so for me it did kind of like
shake me a little bit. I think more than anything to be honest it's made me just really want to not
work at this place not just because even though I think I'm coming back round to maybe being able to
appreciate it in you know especially compared to my old job but I also want kind of want to stress

(01:20:27):
that sort of part of the reason you know for that is things like I don't want to work on the weekend
anymore and I don't want to you know I want to have the ability to have a life in you know with,
in a way where I can interact with others, you know in a way I want to be able to have a weekend day

(01:20:48):
with my friend which I know this is going to sound crazy but me and Kessah still having lived
so near each other have never actually really had the opportunity to just go out and do something
for an entire day because we have never been in the position where I have, where me and him like
have both had like a day off apart from like some random, apart from like his birthday when I happen

(01:21:14):
to the day off and other sorts of things like that like something that you would expect to happen
almost every week is something that we I'm almost working every single day that he would he's
available and so on and everyone else right which has impacts on in terms of what I can do feasibly
every day and even though yes you absolutely could do so many things I just want to point out that

(01:21:36):
I'm obviously not in the best position to be able to take take advantage of that because I'm just not
good at organizing myself and looking after myself and so on and so I do need a bit of help to do that
so it would be nice if I could have a schedule and things like that that allow me to do that as
easily as possible and I think even simple it's like a 9 to 5 would be significantly better because

(01:22:01):
at least I'm on the same schedule as everyone else you know at least I have the same kind of thing going
on so yeah there's just been my kind of like recent thinking that I really do want to get away I
also want to get away from a physical job I want a job which is even if it's shit like I know a lot
people complain about like office jobs and stuff but like I think I honestly you know for I think there

(01:22:25):
are lots of different organizations I'd be very happy working for you know I don't there's lots of
companies I think I would hate working for in an sort of admin role and so on but I think there's
also even some companies that I'd be like yeah sure I'd work for them and I would like to and I think
it would be good to and then so on and it might not be the best thing but I would I really would like

(01:22:47):
to just be able to go to work and not have to push around a trolley like really like a lot and feel
and really have to do it regardless of how I feel especially because I think physical I feel
physically shit when I when I feel bad like it's not just a mental thing but if it's like you know
but me feeling mentally bad like that was just me going to school you know like that's like I've had

(01:23:11):
that experience and to me it's like yeah when I feel physically bad I feel physically sick as well
you know like it's just it's a whole full body experience and I you know that's been
that has been the worst recently I still feel that hollowness inside me right now and I'm trying to
you know and this and again it also I I fuck up eating and and all of these other things that make

(01:23:34):
it really difficult to look after my body and so on that makes a physical job like this like
really difficult to maintain um you know with that kind of sustainability and stability I think
that's the right word I don't think I'm emotionally stable enough as it stands to be able to
carry that out so yeah that's at least my like my general feeling is that something has to change

(01:24:01):
it work and I'm going to chat to them about it and I'm going to try to be as clear on this as
possible and I mean we'll see what happens with that to be honest like that could lots of things
could happen not try and get back about it and uh on top of that my general feeling is that I
really do want to I want to just start looking again so I am looking at jobs again because I don't

(01:24:23):
think I just hit I don't think it's not just that I've hit a wall which I definitely was talking about
and saying that I wanted to be prepared for I think also that I I really just want to get out of
the the out of a job which I think largely speaking is the hardest one for me to the kind of
job a kind of job which is really hard for me to carry out when I'm feeling shit like I think there's

(01:24:47):
just a lot of jobs where I can do it even if I'm feeling shit in a very different way to the very
physical the entirely physical job largely speaking I'm doing now and again I am feeling a
intellectual wall of oh god this is boring this is shit um yeah so anyway that's my that's my that's
my whole thing and I wanted to make that clear and known and hey if you're feeling like this like

(01:25:11):
know that you're not alone and and we fuck up and certainly I fuck up a lot and I'm actually
reaching a point of wreck of of kind of self love with that and knowing that yeah that's fine let's
just try and like let's just try and take that fuck up business and then like realize like well you
fucked up for this reason but that's that but the fact that you fucked up isn't like a denouncement

(01:25:35):
of you it's a recognition that what you're doing isn't right for you and so you need to change and
it is something needs to change and in this case like I am trying to change myself by do it by trying
to be better about sleep food etc but I'm also recognizing that I can't just change myself because

(01:25:55):
that's not the only thing affecting me there is an environment affecting me and I want to change
that environment so try and do all things try and do all of these things balance all these things
you know and also you know talk to people more I mean that's a larger project I'm trying to do but
yeah anyway sorry got went on a bit long with that but I don't know why I wanted to give that kind of
a sincerity that I was worried could not might not be there in some like if some people heard it they

(01:26:23):
wouldn't necessarily realize how sincere I was trying to be about like yes that is I've had it real
shit and it's affected me negatively and I don't feel comfortable entirely talking about it until
maybe later on where I might go into more like you know a year from now or half a year from now
whatever it might be if it comes back to me yeah yeah no like because like we both discussing that

(01:26:47):
we've been feeling somewhat similar as well and it's like there's I'm very much in a very bad
relatively low mood I guess and it's like oh god and it's for me it just feels like things don't
go well and to cut a long story short we're discussing with both you and I've been ever

(01:27:12):
right getting that win about needing a win has like every single setback feels more monumental
than the last one yeah because I'm desperate for like that moment of like we're pre-ever
yes and it's like I just want to be able to to get that and I can't and and because little things like

(01:27:33):
you know I don't know I'm opening up bag of skittles and they'll form on the floor some shit
I'm like oh that's another L and it's like and it's just it builds it builds and it never restops
and I can never seem to remember what breaks it I never know of it's a win that breaks it or whether

(01:28:00):
I just stop caring and then I pick up little victory zero there and it just kind of equals self out
I don't really know I never really remember what breaks it for me it's always an original yeah it's
I very gradual not a I don't it to me it's not ever an event it's like it's just something that
occurs when I become in when I guess my ability to sustain that feeling becomes impossible like I

(01:28:26):
just can't anymore because of the energy it requires and then and then like things shift as a result
of that and yeah sometimes I'm just an idiot and it takes time for me to think out of my own
irrationality if that makes sense yeah um I I've lost all sense of words here um is it time to move on

(01:28:51):
to recommendation session yeah I will say actually my uh when when you were talking there if you heard
my ring tone gone off or which you might not have um that was actually my mum saying be nice to
talk we'll be back home tomorrow mid afternoon so I'm gonna chat with her tomorrow
okay she's on holiday and um I didn't say we were on holiday by the way we went on holiday to

(01:29:14):
have a siege uh which is spelled like h a t h e r and then sage s h e all one word uh really
nice place up I I swear that I'm gonna move up north um I think we all should move up north it's
fucking beautiful up there and you can fucking buy a house or like yeah more ritual one if you know
I mean and you know and you're and you actually can get places that have connections to these you

(01:29:37):
know to cities and stuff some of these cities being really nice cities yeah honestly it was
really beautiful and that the high recommend like the peak districts which is uh where we were
it was brilliant yeah good that all that being said choo choo the song for recommendation station
which one of us just thought me going yeah yeah because your one needs more involved uh j c marg

(01:30:07):
j c marg what are one of my heroes in in the world of football he recently gave an interview
where i was part of a companion on the state of football or soccer in in Canada and he was asked
about the general rhetoric surrounding Canada becoming the 51st state of the United States
made by Donald Trump and the Trump administration of hatred and fascism and all that

(01:30:31):
ought to bollocks and uh j c marg like it's someone who i follow a lot and from like what i know
them politically he's you know he said i believe he said he's socially quite progressive when it comes
to like he can't like the economy and things of that he's fairly um you know central to not only

(01:30:54):
to republican but more along the lines of like leans was the right side and i figured okay well
there's a mind who's gonna be like trump is my king i wouldn't be surprised if it's him but no he
he he he actually went in the complete opposite direction and when i wouldn't say like you know

(01:31:14):
he's ultra woke anything that that's not all the rhetoric one i would use them to how i describe it
i think is more common sense and uh he explained very very i think judo fully
being the word about why the rhetoric surrounding how we treat our allos how we treat each other
is really important and in a time there's a lot of hatred he really did stand up and go hey i'm the

(01:31:40):
manager of the Canadian national team and i'm american and i feel like this is disgusting humiliating
and just downright sad and it is one of the messages that we definitely need to hear and you guys might
think if especially if you're from the uk you guys might not think it's important but i think it's

(01:32:02):
really important that we hear messages from people who um especially judo don't maybe fit the bill
of what we view as a progressive or what we view as a progressive action but it takes a lot
to be someone of a certain standing as well it was a very a very tumultuous sport
a sport where people can love you one minute and hate you the next so to ride that out and go hey

(01:32:27):
i'm gonna go against my own country here i think is really important so you can give that a listen
it's uh it's two minutes long let me talk about it as long as the actual video itself but yeah
as always we got to do that uh my recommendation is i think i i struggled to

(01:32:48):
to talk as long as one of the things associated with this um so the within reason podcast i've
described before i recommended it i can't remember how long ago i did recommend it and i was listening to
one of the episodes and for you know what this person's come on this podcast twice and is i've really

(01:33:13):
enjoyed both of these episodes and i thought i want to recommend this guy because he has a whole
fucking youtube channel and he's a professor but doctor i should say i don't know if he's a professor
and um
and so i thought i would i would i would recommend this and also i've looked at the youtube channel and

(01:33:34):
there's so much content like so esoterica is the person that i'm shouting out on within reason they
there were in two episodes they were on episode 65 which was about the history of Yahweh which if
you know that what Yahweh is it's the sort of Hebrew bibles sort of uh and i should say just the
Hebrew Bible but prior to the Hebrew bibles obviously the sort of name for a god that kind of

(01:33:58):
essentially became the the Abrahamic god that we think of now sort of the history leading to it
and there is episode 83 which is about the demiurge the history of the demiurge which is a concept that
i think starts from what i was hearing i think it starts within sort of playtos like playtos um ideas

(01:34:23):
about like a creator essentially that then gained a lot of following in like uh Alexander in
Greece and in Egypt sorry which is the you know that when the Greek and Romans colonized Egypt they
set up all of these places and blah blah blah um lots of ancient history stuff like if you're
interested in ancient history at all when to be honest i think it's just interesting to listen to

(01:34:45):
because it's fundamentally fascinating to understand these like completely different societies in many
ways to what we have now i also think it's actually a nice bit of escapism that doesn't feel unproductive
because i think it does give you i think it's escaping from the reality we're in by talking about

(01:35:05):
almost like in almost feels like you're talking about an earth like a parallel earth that doesn't
exist like you know because it doesn't currently exist but it's like kind of nice it's almost like
there's a little bit of element of like almost world law you're establishing if you're like kind of a
fancy guy like me uh if you like it and all that stuff and kind of like being interested in like how
all this used to be and so on but also having it in the back of your mind that like oh no this is our

(01:35:31):
history like this is like the history that predates me but not just me also my parents but not just
my parents also like they're lineage not just before they're lineage but actually the culture
predates the culture predates the civilization predates you know and you suddenly realize you're
talking about you know one thousand bc and you're like shit that was four thousand three thousand years

(01:35:51):
ago sorry and it's like holy crap that's crazy um both really uh co-episode esoterica is the name of
the youtube channel dr. Justin Sledge is the guy esoterica is about ESO to ERA I see A I think it's called
also if you're from the youtube side of things um because sometimes like the in the uh URL it's

(01:36:15):
slightly different in case you're just making sure that you've got the right one uh I think it's the
at the esoterica channel but esoterica works fine in all caps in the uh or not in all caps honestly just
extremely knowledgeable about ancient uh history and stuff and and theology and specifically their
work appears to be very much around more to do with like fillet uh fillet uh is more like philosophically

(01:36:42):
more about philosophy and theology stuff uh that has been really cool and for anyone wondering if you
you know if uh if any of this is like confrontational to like your own personal beliefs because I've
already talked about some things that some people don't like talking about from a religious standpoint
he is actually Jewish and uh he is on a particular movement he's rather reconstruction is movement of

(01:37:06):
Judaism which I've been reading about before the podcast started um I was quite interesting to see
what that's about uh but yeah and he has opinions sort of based upon like the the knowledge that
should exist around this that and so on so I I would I this isn't like a specifically uh you know like
I tried to say this and I think the within reason podcast does this and I think mean Alex talked about

(01:37:31):
this that we are not like anti-religious you know like like some individual internet are um and I
think this is actually a really interesting like cross-connection where I think there really isn't a
reason not to be interested in this history even if you believe that you know like divinely we didn't
like kind of have the correct interpretation until a certain point in history that's perfectly fine

(01:37:54):
if that's what you want to believe then that's what you believe and yeah so it's it's brilliant anyway
um I really recommend it I actually recommend it to you Alex as well because there's some of these
videos are long and they give me the you know how you'd say that you like to I don't know obviously
everything is is subjectly you want to be interested in it you would be that interested in but um

(01:38:14):
I know that sometimes you have like these like you really like watching these like essays
like YouTube essays like the long you just get to listen to them in the background or whatever it is
and I could actually recommend these because geez I'm sure you can find something amongst this that's
fascinating uh that that would work for it and the style is very like kind of yeah he's going to

(01:38:37):
talk about this and uh you know and there isn't a lot of like kind of there isn't a lot of YouTube bullshit
I guess that's what I'm trying to say it's like it's it's it's exactly what you kind of want to hear
you know you you get what you're offered and lots of stuff about uh uh about like kind of lots of

(01:38:57):
different things anyway I won't go into it too much because now I'm just talking about it for the sake of
talking about it while I'm looking at all of the things that are available but there is lots of
cool stuff and again I would highly recommend um uh the specific episodes I mentioned episode 65
and 83 because he's in those and uh I want to see in you know I know the I know Alex O'Connor

(01:39:24):
really liked having him which is why he's on there twice um and I think similarly I share that
kind of interest and and love for his work so uh yeah I just want to yeah shut down
well we're going to take two steps to the rear and get out of here I'm not splitting the two different
episodes Jesus Christ we're in the wind see ya just cut out everything that I said in the video

(01:39:52):
you'll you'll shorten the length down like properly go into AI process and just post a silent episode
for two and a half hours oh yeah okay

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