September 24, 2024 • 37 mins
In this episode, we delve into the topic of recruitment and changes in talent attraction in a post-pandemic world. Recruitment remains a pivotal stage in the employment life cycle that requires more attention for it to be effective. With many companies
navigating through economic challenges, this episode offers a critical analysis of innovative strategies for attracting top talent.
Sarah Bolitho, Founder and CEO of Levyl and a leading talent expert, joins the podcast. Levyl specialise in People & Culture recruitment and are passionate about driving diversity, equity, and inclusion in the hiring process. Sarah shares her invaluable insights on the latest market trends, the growing connection between hiring and marketing, and the importance of providing constructive feedback to candidates. We spend time on employer branding and the evolving role of DE&I in modern hiring practices.
Whether you're a job seeker or a hiring manager, this episode is packed with practical tips to guide you through the complexities of today's talent acquisition landscape. This episode is a must-listen for anyone involved in a recruitment process.
Links
Levyl Recruitment and Sarah Bolitho
Episode - Weathering the Storm: Navigating Redundancy with Resilience
https://socialenterpriseau.podbean.com/e/weathering-the-storm-navigating-redundancy-with-resilience
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Social Enterprise would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of this land
where this podcast will be recorded and pay respects to the elders past and present.
We also want to celebrate the ongoing culture, connections and the storytelling
practices that is very much part of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders tradition.
(00:21):
Welcome to Social Enterprise.
Music.
(00:45):
Hello listeners. In this episode, I want to delve into the current climate of
recruitment and the talent acquisition space.
In HR, we think about the concept of employment being a life cycle where recruitment
can be considered as the early stage of the employment life cycle.
In my opinion, recruitment and talent acquisition is one of the most critical
(01:07):
stages of the life cycle, yet I'm not convinced that many traditional organisations
give it the regard it deserves.
As we come out of COVID, as well as the current economic landscape where we
have many organisations going through redundancies and layoffs,
higher inflations in general and cost constraints, It allows those progressive
(01:28):
organizations to critically analyze and strategize when it comes to recruiting talent.
To help us understand some of the latest trends an organization need to consider,
I'm joined by my guest, Sarah Bolitho.
Sarah Bolitho, founder and CEO of Levyl, is a leading talent expert in Australia
dedicated to reshaping recruitment practices to be more inclusive.
(01:52):
Levyl specialises in people and culture recruitment and have a dedicated program
that integrates diversity, equity
and inclusion consulting as a wraparound service to an identified hire.
With 14 years of leadership and talent acquisition experience across international
markets, Sarah is passionate about pioneering progressive recruitment methods
(02:13):
that are human centred in design.
Sarah, you're the founder and CEO of a recruitment agency which focuses on HR
and people and cultural roles.
What have you observed has changed when it comes to best practice in recruitment post-COVID?
So much has changed, Anita. Thank you so much for having us on,
by the way. We really appreciate it.
(02:35):
Probably one of the biggest observations that I've made post-pandemic with respect
to recruitment and one of the biggest differences has been the fact that we
can now make hires virtually so when the pandemic hit like I kid you not it
was one of the biggest barriers that,
we didn't know how we were going to break it down and whether it was possible. I
(02:57):
was running another recruitment firm at the time we all
moved to remote work we thought we don't know whether we can actually make
a placement without our clients physically being able
to see and meet our people in the
flesh but that barrier was broken and
since then you know it's really fast tracked
the way that we've been able to work so you know it's very commonplace
(03:19):
now as you know we'll have virtual meetings day in day out we have candidates
hired off the back of fully remote processes all the time so I think you know
I'm personally a little bit old school I really love an in-person interaction
I think that you can gain a lot of value from that but a lot of our clients
and I feel very comfortable hiring people virtually,
which I think is a great thing.
(03:41):
A number of other different things have happened that I think have influenced
the way that recruitment has evolved since the pandemic.
The connection between recruitment and marketing, as one example,
has really been realised.
And I think a lot of organisations now connect with the fact that every time
(04:02):
they go out to hire a new person into their team,
that that's in essence an opportunity for them to sell how great their business
is and to showcase to the world what they can offer,
the journey that they're heading
on, you know, and really position themselves as a tier one employer.
And when you get that right, the dividends pay off well down the track beyond
(04:25):
of just that initial person that you hire.
So I think that recognition has been really positive.
And probably one of the other significant advancements or changes since the pandemic,
I would think would be the focus on experience and how AI and automation has
improved that from a talent acquisition perspective.
(04:47):
So I think to just rewind a little bit and to contextualize this a little bit,
we presented to one of our customers recently at their HR conference,
they were a medical device business and they wanted to learn about how AI was
being incorporated within talent acquisition.
So we did a bunch of research, pulled together some case studies.
(05:09):
One of them that came, a case study that came out of that was an example from
Starbucks and they recently adopted a platform called Sapia AI to help support
and streamline some bulk recruitment that they needed to complete for their stores.
And over a period of time, they connected with 28,000 candidates.
(05:32):
And I think it was 82% of those candidates off the back of that recruitment
experience gave them a satisfaction score of over 9.2 out of 10.
And their experience was so positive because of the AI technology that they
adopted and how that was able to add value to them throughout the process.
(05:55):
They've got regular updates, they've got a skills profile, they've got coaching.
If they didn't make it through to the next stage, they were told why.
So, you know, of those 28,000 people, you know, 26,000 of them now are walking
around saying how wonderful Starbucks is and they've turned into brand ambassadors.
So that's been a huge shift as well. Yeah, absolutely.
(06:16):
And I think previously a lot of recruitment activity was really bums on seats.
Yeah. And now there is this focus towards employee brand and employee value proposition.
You talked about marketing a little bit. I don't know whether it's also a generational
shift where as we attract more of the younger talent, they're always connected
(06:38):
through social media and things like that.
So they almost look out for these cues as well to then decide even to apply
for a particular role and be part of that organisation.
So I completely agree there's been a shift.
I also want to reflect on, I guess, coming out of COVID and what you said about
(06:59):
the virtual recruitment and some
companies just deciding that that was how they wanted to move forward.
But I also think people have forgotten as well because COVID lasted for such a long time.
Yeah. And so it was all – Three years ago. We're still talking about it because it was so significant.
Exactly. And I feel like it's also people had to remind themselves of actually
(07:21):
we can actually do this face-to-face again if we want to.
So it's been an interesting shift as well, but having the options to recruit
virtually, especially if it's a role that is not in that location.
I find being able to leverage technology fantastic.
Absolutely. We had a candidate go to
a first stage interview this morning for a role in Brisbane
(07:43):
and she met with the CPO who was
based in Sydney and a senior manager who was based in Melbourne and
they loved her which is very exciting so
we'll see where we land for this one but they wanted to move to reference checks straight
away so then it actually prompted a different conversation where
we could go back to the candidate and say hey look they're really comfortable
having met you for an hour over a virtual interview they want to move forward
(08:05):
to references which indicates an offer will probably come would you like an
in-person interaction yeah and she she said yes to that she's like yeah i want
to see the office i want I want to make some of the team that I can because they have,
they work in that way. They've got a national people and culture team.
They're always interacting virtually. They just have the culture.
(08:26):
Do that. And that wouldn't have happened in 2019. Yeah, absolutely.
And just using that Starbucks example, one of the things you mentioned was feedback
and getting that feedback along the way for candidates.
I was wondering if we could deep dive a little bit on that and can you sort
of talk through some of your experience and what's been valuable versus not
(08:46):
in that sort of feedback space for candidates?
It's one of the biggest pain points. We have been doing a lot of polls via our
LinkedIn page to engage actively with our network and understand what their
frustrations are and lack of feedback and lack of transparent communication comes up consistently.
(09:07):
I think it can be really difficult sometimes to provide feedback in a way where
it is constructive and you're being really respectful to that person and try
not to exaggerate what can be a disappointing outcome.
But at the end of the day, like that's the job of a recruiter.
You've got to find a way through that difficult territory to be able to give
(09:28):
that person the context that they deserve.
They've invested hours, sometimes days and weeks in processes.
And, you know, the advice that we would give to any hiring manager out there,
anybody considering, you know, how to provide an update if it's feedback that can't be,
maybe that not can't be, but feedback that's difficult to deliver is just to
(09:49):
do it in as true and authentic a method as possible.
Because otherwise you can't constructively build and move forward.
It's an interesting topic because, I mean, I can talk about my own experience
where one of the interview process I went through,
there was four or five stages and every single round the person that was interviewing
(10:11):
me had said how important feedback was in the organisation.
But the reality in that process was that there wasn't really any feedback apart from.
Positive and you'll be moving on to the next stage. So it is.
And I think also it's almost an indication of how feedback is given and how
comfortable people are in that organisation to give feedback.
(10:33):
So once they're in the organisation, there is that habit. So agree.
I mean, a lot of candidates spend a lot of time, especially if there's multiple
rounds of recruitment to get into the final offer.
It is an investment of time and it can be disappointing as well,
investing all of that time to know that you're unsuccessful but you're not sure why.
(10:55):
Yeah. No, it's tough. I think it also speaks to, you know, the value that people
are putting on a recruitment process and I think when organisations don't value providing feedback,
they really see it, they must see it more as a transaction and more of a putting
bums on seats scenario to be very fair because if you saw the true value that
(11:18):
a well-executed recruitment exercise could bring,
then you would approach feedback, conversations and providing them with time
and providing detail that that person can then learn and work from.
And you should be asking feedback as well. I don't think it should be just a one-way cycle.
Why are we not providing opportunities for candidates to go,
(11:41):
look, this is what I really enjoyed about considering your company as my next employer.
This is what I found frustrating. We do exit at interviews.
I don't know. Yeah. Something maybe. Yeah. I think the critical side of me also
thinks about unconscious bias.
Yeah. So when there is a reluctance to give really detailed feedback about why
(12:02):
maybe someone wasn't successful, that's sort of the first step.
Question I have around that and was, can they actually articulate why they've gone that way as well?
So yes, very, very interesting space.
I guess we talked a little bit about the brand and the EVP.
I know that you, a recruitment agency, you work with both the employer and the candidate,
(12:25):
but I was wondering if we could talk about maybe for the candidates,
what are some tips that you can give candidates in this space if they're going
for an interview or even prior to that,
while they're thinking through what they're
looking for yeah as well so the
first tip I would provide would be to tailor as
(12:46):
much as possible every application that you make and to be prepared that your
your resume is going to be a working document and basically till you land a
job so the the job your CV has to do for you is it's a sales document it's a
tool and it's literally there to get you in that room.
And then as to how well it's crafted, that will also support the way that you
(13:10):
project yourself in an interview.
So my first piece of advice would be around just expect that you're going to
do it over time and time and time again and try to personalise it so you can
actually highlight your unique skills and abilities unique to what's important
to every job that you're going for.
Secondly, I'm a born networker. I love it. And I'm saying to anybody that's
(13:32):
ever looking for a job, you've got to get out there and you've got to pound
the pavement and you've got to meet new people and bring them into your world.
So, you know, I would encourage an approach with networking similar to what
you're doing with your job applications, making,
taking stock of who you have in your world, professionally or personally,
you know, who your advocates are, who you can lean on for introductions,
(13:55):
actions, who you can offer value to and not just seek value from as well.
So that value exchange and not just missing all of the people that are in your
network on a day-to-day basis that might be able to, you know,
add to your search as well.
Might be the barista you get a coffee from every morning.
It could be, you know, I don't know, one of your next door neighbours.
(14:18):
We've had so many wonderful stories over the last couple of years of people
landing a job that was off market or
they'll potentially be referred into it just by making one of those coincidental
introductions but then actually leaning into it and building a relationship.
They're probably two of the main ones, I would say.
(14:38):
And I think... And just also as well to be, sorry, last one,
because it is to be authentic in your interactions as well.
So we put so much time and energy preparing our resume, going through the process,
doing practice questions, all that sort of stuff. But at the end of the day,
you know, you need to connect with a person that's going to hire you.
It is a person. They represent an organisation.
(14:59):
But then being able to see who you are as an individual and how you'll contribute
to the team, you know, from a soft skill perspective, not just a technical skill
perspective, and understanding a little bit more about who you are and why you're there today.
That's a very helpful thing. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's a really good
reminder that it is a two-way street.
(15:21):
I think a lot of the time candidates are thinking about impressing the hiring
manager or the employer, but they also need to opt into that as well,
that environment, that culture, that hiring manager, that team.
And especially for longevity and alignment to values and things like that,
I think it's really important for candidates to remember that,
(15:42):
that it's not just about them picking
you but you picking them as well it can be
really tough certainly you know when we're in trading conditions like
this and there are not very many opportunities around the
ones that are very fiercely contested for and you
know some people have you know financial deadlines that they might need to meet
or you know personal circumstances that influence that but I think there's definitely
(16:06):
like a psychological component of what you've just hinted at of you know throwing
Throwing yourself at an opportunity versus walking in with confidence,
knowing the value that you have to offer and expecting that that person beat you at the table.
Yeah, definitely. And I think another good reminder you've given us is around
networking and the fact that not all roles are advertised.
(16:26):
Yeah. And it's even those informal connections that you can make can lead to something.
So there is a lot of value in nurturing those as well. Absolutely. Yeah.
I think the other flip side of that is we talked about, I guess,
the candidates and what are some tips for candidates?
I think on the other side, we referenced...
This concept of bums on seats. And what I tell my hiring managers that are interviewing
(16:51):
is that they've got a role to play, not just to fill the role,
but to be an advocate for the organisation.
What sort of role and what are the expectations for the role?
Even beyond that, it's around what's the learning opportunity in that role,
career pathways and things like that.
But working with your clients, what are some of the things that you sort of
(17:14):
give them advice on around that.
I think if you're coaching your leaders like that, Anita, like hands down, like good on you.
I wish that more hiring managers got that type of coaching.
And there are some great organisations out there actually that do interview
tips and upskill for hiring managers.
So if anybody needs a recommendation, please let me know. But look,
(17:35):
I think you're absolutely right.
Every time an organisation is hiring somebody into their team,
it's an opportunity to demonstrate
who they are the value they can offer and you
know why they're sitting there as a representative as an
employee of the business you know what what's brought
them there in the first place and attach them um there like
i always think about the the numbers when it comes to this from a hiring perspective
(17:57):
you might hire one person into a job but you might engage with 100 people in
market so you know what are the other 99 people going to walk away and say about
their experience and what your organisation has to offer,
you have an opportunity to really convert some very deliberate messaging and
to provide like a very bespoke and human-centred experience to those people.
(18:23):
And, you know, the types of organisations that do that,
really invest in the recruitment process and they're really proactive in determining
what their employer brand is and what their value proposition is,
they attract the best candidates and they retain the best candidates.
And for us, you know, as a recruitment firm,
(18:44):
we know that reputationally, if we place somebody into a business and they are still there,
you know, three five ten years down the track
that's great for us like that's what we
want that speaks to that speaks to the recommendation
that we've made that speaks to the alignment so you
know as as much as possible we really do try to work with businesses where they
(19:06):
see that value and I think another really good reminder as you were sort of
talking through that is around those that are not successful but being advocates
for that organisation through that positive experience or the positive recruitment experience.
I think if we think about it, you know, a lot of organisations are business
and they're providing a product or service.
(19:26):
So it might also be conversion to customers.
So I think there's definitely some importance there.
I think about the Starbucks example, you know, imagine if they didn't provide
a good experience and you had 26,000 angry customers walking away.
Like that's the reality of providing a potentially damaging experience from a TA perspective.
(19:50):
Absolutely. Yeah. Now, I want to shift gear a little bit. So, Levyl is quite unique.
So, as I mentioned, it is a boutique HR and people and culture recruitment agency.
But one of the things that you're passionate about, Sarah, and very aligned
to my passion is around diversity, equity and inclusion.
(20:10):
Conclusion I think we can talk for hours about this topic but I was wondering
if you could share with us some of the things that level is doing yeah for sure
so yeah so we concentrate purely on filling people and culture roles,
In our commercial business, we work with a wide variety of different customers
from top ASX companies through to emerging fintechs, not-for-profits,
(20:31):
a little bit of everyone in between.
But what the market are now recognising us for in terms of reputation is our
values-focused approach to business.
Business and it was really, it
was a very clear ambition that I had in launching Levyl two almost coming up to
two and a half years ago that we wanted to establish a new baseline for what
(20:56):
recruitment firms are all about and we knew that being really clear and deliberate
in terms of what values we want to uphold,
what our ideologies are, what our hopes are for the industry was going to be
really key to being able to establish the right customer base and be able to
break down some barriers.
So what we have designed as a complementary program that sits next to our commercial
(21:19):
HR recruitment business is a diversity and inclusion program.
And what that program does is
it provides D&I consulting as a wraparound service to an identified hire.
And we've launched partnerships in market with subject
matter experts that can provide the insights
and expertise that we don't have so as
(21:40):
an example we're working with an organisation who are neurodiversity experts
to enable that stream we've got a great partnership with another organisation
for our LGBTQIA plus stream and in addition to the placement these experts lean
into that recruitment journey
and provide guidance on how the onboarding
(22:00):
process might need to be adapted or how the interview
questions might need to be tailored or you know
an example of our pride stream there's a mentoring match
that's made following placement to ensure that candidate
has the support that they require same from
a neurodiversity perspective but it's coaching instead of mentorship
and it's coming from a place from it's
(22:22):
coming from a place of recognition that people in culture as
a as a profession and the functions internally
in organisations they have so much
influence over who gets hired how
they get hired what what the culture how
the culture is set what the culture is what the environment looks like what
the policies look like you know that whole flow of working in life and how that
(22:44):
intersects with you know bringing a whole bunch of different people into a business
and going great make it work so you know we'd be we're motivated to help people
and culture teams build themselves from the perspective of actually enabling.
Of uplifting the diversity of representation within their own teams and then
enabling their environments at the same time so they can provide, you know,
(23:07):
different thinking to the organisations in which they represent and that they
can help them to become more progressive in their recruitment practices for the future. Yeah.
That's really exciting. And I tend to agree that you're starting to do this
in the people culture space and, you know, they tend to be role models in this
(23:28):
sort of type of behaviour, inclusive behaviour, inclusive leadership.
So to sort of set the tone in that population, that will then hopefully translate
into the broader organisation as well. So I think it's really powerful stuff.
And one of the things, just using neurodiversity as an example,
One of the seminars that I went to that Levyl had presented on,
(23:52):
there was one takeaway that I had around interviewing for neurodivergent candidates
where they're given the option to get the questions before the actual interview
so they can sort of start preparing.
So I guess they can really focus on performance on the day rather than worrying
about what am I going to be be asked on the day.
(24:12):
And what I love about that is although maybe we're looking at supporting this
population based on their needs,
it actually opens up more an inclusive practice for everyone as well.
So I think, you know, it's really powerful. And that's just one example. Good on you. Thank you.
I think it's a misconception out there that a lot of the revisions you can make
(24:37):
to a recruitment process in order to create a more inclusive experience.
It's costly and it takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of executive buy-in.
The example you just provided about agreeing on a set of interview questions
and tendering them in advance to ensure that you're assessing everybody that
comes through your door on the same criteria set, that doesn't cost anything.
(24:58):
Certainly some advancements beyond of that might take some expertise,
But, yeah, we're trying to go on a journey where we can win hearts and minds
with the diversity and inclusion conversation opener.
You know, the perspectives that are sitting around hiring tables and,
(25:18):
you know, it's all of these like little bits and pieces that we're able to get
out through customer and community engagement events,
where if you were to walk away and go, I'm going to approach my one hire differently,
I'm going to tend to interview questions in advance and then you build on that
and you do something further and then you build on that and you do something
further, that for us is a win.
You might not be participating in our program but for us, Plus,
(25:42):
you know, that whole, the way that we're contributing to industry as a whole
and society as a whole is really, really important to us. So that's a win.
Yeah, no, that's great. And I think the more of that, the better, I think for everyone.
So yes, it's very exciting.
I wanted to sort of get your gauge on things like hybrid. I know it's very topical at the moment.
(26:06):
So there are a lot of organisations, at least in Australia, some are mandating
going back back to the office five days a week.
I know hybrid's one of those things that people like or look for.
Whether it's hybrid, is there any other things that candidates are looking for
that employees need to sort of be mindful and flexible around?
(26:26):
Yes, there have been some big shifts recently. So hybrid working and flexible
working is still very much in demand.
Off the back of the New South Wales State Government announcement announcement
about bringing a lot of their workforce back into the office.
We've seen a handful of our customers lean on that as almost a justification
to shift the policies that they have in place and try to get people a little bit more back in person.
(26:53):
We also have a lot of organisations that, you know, they run big blue-collar
workforces or they're very customer-facing.
So they've got different reasons for moving away, you know, from what might
be a more flexible workforce.
So I think depending on the needs of the job seeker and the person,
flexibility does still come up all the time.
(27:15):
But interestingly, and I think heavily influenced in terms of where we're at
with the economy right now and the jobs market overall,
we are seeing stability and job security shoot way up the list in terms of desirables
and candidates are getting a lot more savvy about the types of questions that they're asking to
really ascertain that and feeling more comfortable asking those as well which
(27:38):
I think is a really positive step forward they also really in the essay they
you know we we all really want to feel connected to our workplaces we want to
feel a sense of psychosocial safety and belonging belonging,
we also want to understand what the vision is, what the purpose of our jobs
(27:59):
are, like how that feeds into the bigger picture,
so the whole meaningful work piece and being able to understand how your nine
to five factors into, you know, the nine to five of every other team member
there and what you're running towards, that's really, really important.
Probably on like a more technical level, we are also seeing a little bit of a divide between,
(28:19):
be created from a technology perspective so as
an example you know we're working with some generalist candidates
at the moment that are a bit earlier on in their HR careers some
of them have become very comfortable using chat GPT and
generative AI and now when
we're briefing them on new opportunities you know in different firms it's one
(28:41):
of the questions that gets asked it's like well what's the tech stack and can
I use chat GPT because if I can't I don't want to go back to having to manually
research and write everything for these policies and X, Y, Z. It's a learned skill.
And we're seeing the market respond to that as a learned skill.
And we're seeing that becoming a little bit more of a divide in terms of differentiating
(29:05):
what types of organisations you want to work for versus you don't.
Yeah, that's really interesting.
It is very topical at the moment. I guess it also links back into,
can I leverage technology so I can and spend more of my time doing that meaningful value-add work.
Yes. So, yeah. Exactly. They're really interesting and it's great that people
are asking those questions and being bold to ask those questions as well.
(29:27):
I mean, an example that I will speak to because I'm quite passionate about it
as well, the gender piece of diversity and inclusion is,
you know, I've been in agency recruitment for 14 years and I have had so many examples,
Anita, I cannot tell you how many over the past 10 years and it's gotten a lot
(29:47):
better over the last probably three to four and that's the shift which I'll speak to in a minute,
but of women actively interviewing for roles and inquiring through me about
what the parental leave policy is but then actually asking me not to ask the
client for fear of recourse of how that question will then be assumed as an
(30:09):
intent to start a family,
how that may work against them in the interview process.
But the shift over the last three to four years, a lot of candidates have now,
and, you know, not just women, people that are starting families on that journey
from all different types of backgrounds are now being much more confident and
forthcoming in asking, you know, well, what are the policies that are on offer?
(30:33):
How will I be supported from a parental leave perspective? What does it look like for X, Y, Z?
And I think that's a really, really positive step forward.
It's like signing up to marry somebody without knowing, you know,
the nuts and bolts of who that person is.
Like it just seems crazy to me that it was something that was such a taboo topic
(30:54):
only a handful of years ago.
Yeah. Yeah, it's a really good point and I think it also leads into just being transparent as well.
So I've also noticed some organisations being more open and transparent about
their policies to the extent even in their job ads it might have a statement
around things like parental leave and what their offer is.
So, yes, it's good to see that shift so it's not all hidden and people need
(31:19):
to find out once they join the organisation and it can be a bit of a deal breaker sometimes as well.
Absolutely. And candidates notice it. When you say like I think there's pros
and cons of the little disclaimers at the end of advertisements but I think
when it's used authentically with the intent of communicating that you're open
to hiring people people from different backgrounds or you have inclusive policies
(31:41):
and you're making a deliberate attempt to go, hey,
this is us, this is what we can offer, this is what we've got,
most people respond well to it because the opposite is, you know,
it's ambiguity or it's no detail and that puts the onus and the pressure back
on the candidate to go through a deeper discovery mission to then determine
(32:02):
whether that's an environment they want to be in for the next two, five, ten years. Yeah.
So to finish off, we spoke a lot about candidates and job seekers and you've
given us some amazing tips for that cohort.
But on the flip side, can you give us two or three tips that you can give employers
(32:23):
or hiring managers when it comes to effective recruitment?
Absolutely. So my first tip would be to prioritise communication and to be really
clear and really transparent.
Even if there's no update, reach out to anybody who's engaged in your process
and just let them know that the team is still deliberating or it might take
(32:44):
another week for feedback, but take them on that journey with you and really
prioritise that communication because,
candidates spend hours, days, weeks, and so much investment is put into these processes.
So it's a bare minimum that you can really offer.
I would encourage hiring managers and organisations to invest in their employer brand as well.
(33:07):
Be really loud and proud about who you are. Find the right vocabulary.
Understand where you sit in the market and communicate that with intent because
the organisations that do place a focus on that and they double down on that,
they attract better people and they retain them.
And then thirdly, I would encourage
(33:27):
anybody that is going to be hiring for their team or their organisation next
12 to 18 months to consider how you can interweave diversity and inclusion principles
into your recruitment process to ensure that you can attract a broader cross-section of people,
more diverse range of people to your business.
(33:49):
And then go on that journey of constant iteration to then weave in those principles
to the recruitment process, to the onboarding journey, to ensure that you can
set up people to succeed and create an inclusive culture.
You know, we have seen so many redundancies and restructures hit the market
and I would just love, love it if we were sitting here in 12 to 18 months time
(34:14):
and we had organisations going, okay, great.
You know, we need to hire 15, 20 people to build out our people culture team.
And we don't just want the same 15, 20 people that we've always hired that fit
into these four walls in this box,
but we're actually going to reflect on the diversity of
our team and the makeup of our organisation and what
skills and what lived experience that we can benefit
(34:36):
from and what we can accommodate and support and actually
hire those 15 to 20 roles with that intent being really
deliberate from a diversity and inclusion angle as
well yeah absolutely and i can definitely echo that yes
there is a role to fill but equally
that advocacy is really important that transparency that communication
(34:57):
and you know what I what you said
I loved around taking someone on that journey I think really helps and you know
we've always mentioned that it takes a lot of time invested in these processes
as well for both parties so we want to make sure that both parties get the most
out of it exactly exactly Sarah it's been.
(35:19):
Wonderful to talk to you today to talk about recruitment
and what level is doing which is quite progressive so it's really exciting to
hear and follow what happens in in that space especially in DNI and thank you
and thank you for joining social enterprise thank you for having us on Anita
we really appreciate it's been great to see you.
(35:42):
It was so good to get to hear some of the insights from Sarah.
I'd like to think that recruitment in the people and culture space provides
a really good indication of what's happening across other roles and the organisation more broadly.
But it's great to hear that companies like Level are trying to partner and promote
and educate on the importance of coupling recruitment activity with more broader
(36:04):
topics such as diversity, equity and inclusion.
I'll leave in the show notes information on Levyl if you want to know more about
Sarah and Levyl, as well as a link to a recent episode I released on redundancies
that some of you may find useful,
especially if you're currently a job seeker as a result of being impacted by a redundancy or layoff.
(36:25):
I want to leave you with a message of hope.
I know there are many people out there who are looking for their next job opportunity,
but may be finding it quite challenging.
I want to urge you to hang in there and don't lose your confidence.
It's a very tight labour market we're
experiencing right now across many markets but
(36:46):
remember that things tend to trend as
a cycle so it might be an employer's market at the moment but that pendulum
will eventually swing the other way we discussed many useful tips today and
i hope they can be helpful in your job search or if you're finding it's challenging
to attract the right talent if you're needing to hire until next time stay safe and well.
(37:10):
Music.
Social Enterprise would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of this land
where this podcast will be recorded and pay respects to the elders past and present.
We also want to celebrate the ongoing culture, connections and the storytelling
practices that is very much part of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders tradition.
(00:21):
Welcome to Social Enterprise.
Music.
(00:45):
Hello listeners. In this episode, I want to delve into the current climate of
recruitment and the talent acquisition space.
In HR, we think about the concept of employment being a life cycle where recruitment
can be considered as the early stage of the employment life cycle.
In my opinion, recruitment and talent acquisition is one of the most critical
(01:07):
stages of the life cycle, yet I'm not convinced that many traditional organisations
give it the regard it deserves.
As we come out of COVID, as well as the current economic landscape where we
have many organisations going through redundancies and layoffs,
higher inflations in general and cost constraints, It allows those progressive
(01:28):
organizations to critically analyze and strategize when it comes to recruiting talent.
To help us understand some of the latest trends an organization need to consider,
I'm joined by my guest, Sarah Bolitho.
Sarah Bolitho, founder and CEO of Levyl, is a leading talent expert in Australia
dedicated to reshaping recruitment practices to be more inclusive.
(01:52):
Levyl specialises in people and culture recruitment and have a dedicated program
that integrates diversity, equity
and inclusion consulting as a wraparound service to an identified hire.
With 14 years of leadership and talent acquisition experience across international
markets, Sarah is passionate about pioneering progressive recruitment methods
(02:13):
that are human centred in design.
Sarah, you're the founder and CEO of a recruitment agency which focuses on HR
and people and cultural roles.
What have you observed has changed when it comes to best practice in recruitment post-COVID?
So much has changed, Anita. Thank you so much for having us on,
by the way. We really appreciate it.
(02:35):
Probably one of the biggest observations that I've made post-pandemic with respect
to recruitment and one of the biggest differences has been the fact that we
can now make hires virtually so when the pandemic hit like I kid you not it
was one of the biggest barriers that,
we didn't know how we were going to break it down and whether it was possible. I
(02:57):
was running another recruitment firm at the time we all
moved to remote work we thought we don't know whether we can actually make
a placement without our clients physically being able
to see and meet our people in the
flesh but that barrier was broken and
since then you know it's really fast tracked
the way that we've been able to work so you know it's very commonplace
(03:19):
now as you know we'll have virtual meetings day in day out we have candidates
hired off the back of fully remote processes all the time so I think you know
I'm personally a little bit old school I really love an in-person interaction
I think that you can gain a lot of value from that but a lot of our clients
and I feel very comfortable hiring people virtually,
which I think is a great thing.
(03:41):
A number of other different things have happened that I think have influenced
the way that recruitment has evolved since the pandemic.
The connection between recruitment and marketing, as one example,
has really been realised.
And I think a lot of organisations now connect with the fact that every time
(04:02):
they go out to hire a new person into their team,
that that's in essence an opportunity for them to sell how great their business
is and to showcase to the world what they can offer,
the journey that they're heading
on, you know, and really position themselves as a tier one employer.
And when you get that right, the dividends pay off well down the track beyond
(04:25):
of just that initial person that you hire.
So I think that recognition has been really positive.
And probably one of the other significant advancements or changes since the pandemic,
I would think would be the focus on experience and how AI and automation has
improved that from a talent acquisition perspective.
(04:47):
So I think to just rewind a little bit and to contextualize this a little bit,
we presented to one of our customers recently at their HR conference,
they were a medical device business and they wanted to learn about how AI was
being incorporated within talent acquisition.
So we did a bunch of research, pulled together some case studies.
(05:09):
One of them that came, a case study that came out of that was an example from
Starbucks and they recently adopted a platform called Sapia AI to help support
and streamline some bulk recruitment that they needed to complete for their stores.
And over a period of time, they connected with 28,000 candidates.
(05:32):
And I think it was 82% of those candidates off the back of that recruitment
experience gave them a satisfaction score of over 9.2 out of 10.
And their experience was so positive because of the AI technology that they
adopted and how that was able to add value to them throughout the process.
(05:55):
They've got regular updates, they've got a skills profile, they've got coaching.
If they didn't make it through to the next stage, they were told why.
So, you know, of those 28,000 people, you know, 26,000 of them now are walking
around saying how wonderful Starbucks is and they've turned into brand ambassadors.
So that's been a huge shift as well. Yeah, absolutely.
(06:16):
And I think previously a lot of recruitment activity was really bums on seats.
Yeah. And now there is this focus towards employee brand and employee value proposition.
You talked about marketing a little bit. I don't know whether it's also a generational
shift where as we attract more of the younger talent, they're always connected
(06:38):
through social media and things like that.
So they almost look out for these cues as well to then decide even to apply
for a particular role and be part of that organisation.
So I completely agree there's been a shift.
I also want to reflect on, I guess, coming out of COVID and what you said about
(06:59):
the virtual recruitment and some
companies just deciding that that was how they wanted to move forward.
But I also think people have forgotten as well because COVID lasted for such a long time.
Yeah. And so it was all – Three years ago. We're still talking about it because it was so significant.
Exactly. And I feel like it's also people had to remind themselves of actually
(07:21):
we can actually do this face-to-face again if we want to.
So it's been an interesting shift as well, but having the options to recruit
virtually, especially if it's a role that is not in that location.
I find being able to leverage technology fantastic.
Absolutely. We had a candidate go to
a first stage interview this morning for a role in Brisbane
(07:43):
and she met with the CPO who was
based in Sydney and a senior manager who was based in Melbourne and
they loved her which is very exciting so
we'll see where we land for this one but they wanted to move to reference checks straight
away so then it actually prompted a different conversation where
we could go back to the candidate and say hey look they're really comfortable
having met you for an hour over a virtual interview they want to move forward
(08:05):
to references which indicates an offer will probably come would you like an
in-person interaction yeah and she she said yes to that she's like yeah i want
to see the office i want I want to make some of the team that I can because they have,
they work in that way. They've got a national people and culture team.
They're always interacting virtually. They just have the culture.
(08:26):
Do that. And that wouldn't have happened in 2019. Yeah, absolutely.
And just using that Starbucks example, one of the things you mentioned was feedback
and getting that feedback along the way for candidates.
I was wondering if we could deep dive a little bit on that and can you sort
of talk through some of your experience and what's been valuable versus not
(08:46):
in that sort of feedback space for candidates?
It's one of the biggest pain points. We have been doing a lot of polls via our
LinkedIn page to engage actively with our network and understand what their
frustrations are and lack of feedback and lack of transparent communication comes up consistently.
(09:07):
I think it can be really difficult sometimes to provide feedback in a way where
it is constructive and you're being really respectful to that person and try
not to exaggerate what can be a disappointing outcome.
But at the end of the day, like that's the job of a recruiter.
You've got to find a way through that difficult territory to be able to give
(09:28):
that person the context that they deserve.
They've invested hours, sometimes days and weeks in processes.
And, you know, the advice that we would give to any hiring manager out there,
anybody considering, you know, how to provide an update if it's feedback that can't be,
maybe that not can't be, but feedback that's difficult to deliver is just to
(09:49):
do it in as true and authentic a method as possible.
Because otherwise you can't constructively build and move forward.
It's an interesting topic because, I mean, I can talk about my own experience
where one of the interview process I went through,
there was four or five stages and every single round the person that was interviewing
(10:11):
me had said how important feedback was in the organisation.
But the reality in that process was that there wasn't really any feedback apart from.
Positive and you'll be moving on to the next stage. So it is.
And I think also it's almost an indication of how feedback is given and how
comfortable people are in that organisation to give feedback.
(10:33):
So once they're in the organisation, there is that habit. So agree.
I mean, a lot of candidates spend a lot of time, especially if there's multiple
rounds of recruitment to get into the final offer.
It is an investment of time and it can be disappointing as well,
investing all of that time to know that you're unsuccessful but you're not sure why.
(10:55):
Yeah. No, it's tough. I think it also speaks to, you know, the value that people
are putting on a recruitment process and I think when organisations don't value providing feedback,
they really see it, they must see it more as a transaction and more of a putting
bums on seats scenario to be very fair because if you saw the true value that
(11:18):
a well-executed recruitment exercise could bring,
then you would approach feedback, conversations and providing them with time
and providing detail that that person can then learn and work from.
And you should be asking feedback as well. I don't think it should be just a one-way cycle.
Why are we not providing opportunities for candidates to go,
(11:41):
look, this is what I really enjoyed about considering your company as my next employer.
This is what I found frustrating. We do exit at interviews.
I don't know. Yeah. Something maybe. Yeah. I think the critical side of me also
thinks about unconscious bias.
Yeah. So when there is a reluctance to give really detailed feedback about why
(12:02):
maybe someone wasn't successful, that's sort of the first step.
Question I have around that and was, can they actually articulate why they've gone that way as well?
So yes, very, very interesting space.
I guess we talked a little bit about the brand and the EVP.
I know that you, a recruitment agency, you work with both the employer and the candidate,
(12:25):
but I was wondering if we could talk about maybe for the candidates,
what are some tips that you can give candidates in this space if they're going
for an interview or even prior to that,
while they're thinking through what they're
looking for yeah as well so the
first tip I would provide would be to tailor as
(12:46):
much as possible every application that you make and to be prepared that your
your resume is going to be a working document and basically till you land a
job so the the job your CV has to do for you is it's a sales document it's a
tool and it's literally there to get you in that room.
And then as to how well it's crafted, that will also support the way that you
(13:10):
project yourself in an interview.
So my first piece of advice would be around just expect that you're going to
do it over time and time and time again and try to personalise it so you can
actually highlight your unique skills and abilities unique to what's important
to every job that you're going for.
Secondly, I'm a born networker. I love it. And I'm saying to anybody that's
(13:32):
ever looking for a job, you've got to get out there and you've got to pound
the pavement and you've got to meet new people and bring them into your world.
So, you know, I would encourage an approach with networking similar to what
you're doing with your job applications, making,
taking stock of who you have in your world, professionally or personally,
you know, who your advocates are, who you can lean on for introductions,
(13:55):
actions, who you can offer value to and not just seek value from as well.
So that value exchange and not just missing all of the people that are in your
network on a day-to-day basis that might be able to, you know,
add to your search as well.
Might be the barista you get a coffee from every morning.
It could be, you know, I don't know, one of your next door neighbours.
(14:18):
We've had so many wonderful stories over the last couple of years of people
landing a job that was off market or
they'll potentially be referred into it just by making one of those coincidental
introductions but then actually leaning into it and building a relationship.
They're probably two of the main ones, I would say.
(14:38):
And I think... And just also as well to be, sorry, last one,
because it is to be authentic in your interactions as well.
So we put so much time and energy preparing our resume, going through the process,
doing practice questions, all that sort of stuff. But at the end of the day,
you know, you need to connect with a person that's going to hire you.
It is a person. They represent an organisation.
(14:59):
But then being able to see who you are as an individual and how you'll contribute
to the team, you know, from a soft skill perspective, not just a technical skill
perspective, and understanding a little bit more about who you are and why you're there today.
That's a very helpful thing. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's a really good
reminder that it is a two-way street.
(15:21):
I think a lot of the time candidates are thinking about impressing the hiring
manager or the employer, but they also need to opt into that as well,
that environment, that culture, that hiring manager, that team.
And especially for longevity and alignment to values and things like that,
I think it's really important for candidates to remember that,
(15:42):
that it's not just about them picking
you but you picking them as well it can be
really tough certainly you know when we're in trading conditions like
this and there are not very many opportunities around the
ones that are very fiercely contested for and you
know some people have you know financial deadlines that they might need to meet
or you know personal circumstances that influence that but I think there's definitely
(16:06):
like a psychological component of what you've just hinted at of you know throwing
Throwing yourself at an opportunity versus walking in with confidence,
knowing the value that you have to offer and expecting that that person beat you at the table.
Yeah, definitely. And I think another good reminder you've given us is around
networking and the fact that not all roles are advertised.
(16:26):
Yeah. And it's even those informal connections that you can make can lead to something.
So there is a lot of value in nurturing those as well. Absolutely. Yeah.
I think the other flip side of that is we talked about, I guess,
the candidates and what are some tips for candidates?
I think on the other side, we referenced...
This concept of bums on seats. And what I tell my hiring managers that are interviewing
(16:51):
is that they've got a role to play, not just to fill the role,
but to be an advocate for the organisation.
What sort of role and what are the expectations for the role?
Even beyond that, it's around what's the learning opportunity in that role,
career pathways and things like that.
But working with your clients, what are some of the things that you sort of
(17:14):
give them advice on around that.
I think if you're coaching your leaders like that, Anita, like hands down, like good on you.
I wish that more hiring managers got that type of coaching.
And there are some great organisations out there actually that do interview
tips and upskill for hiring managers.
So if anybody needs a recommendation, please let me know. But look,
(17:35):
I think you're absolutely right.
Every time an organisation is hiring somebody into their team,
it's an opportunity to demonstrate
who they are the value they can offer and you
know why they're sitting there as a representative as an
employee of the business you know what what's brought
them there in the first place and attach them um there like
i always think about the the numbers when it comes to this from a hiring perspective
(17:57):
you might hire one person into a job but you might engage with 100 people in
market so you know what are the other 99 people going to walk away and say about
their experience and what your organisation has to offer,
you have an opportunity to really convert some very deliberate messaging and
to provide like a very bespoke and human-centred experience to those people.
(18:23):
And, you know, the types of organisations that do that,
really invest in the recruitment process and they're really proactive in determining
what their employer brand is and what their value proposition is,
they attract the best candidates and they retain the best candidates.
And for us, you know, as a recruitment firm,
(18:44):
we know that reputationally, if we place somebody into a business and they are still there,
you know, three five ten years down the track
that's great for us like that's what we
want that speaks to that speaks to the recommendation
that we've made that speaks to the alignment so you
know as as much as possible we really do try to work with businesses where they
(19:06):
see that value and I think another really good reminder as you were sort of
talking through that is around those that are not successful but being advocates
for that organisation through that positive experience or the positive recruitment experience.
I think if we think about it, you know, a lot of organisations are business
and they're providing a product or service.
(19:26):
So it might also be conversion to customers.
So I think there's definitely some importance there.
I think about the Starbucks example, you know, imagine if they didn't provide
a good experience and you had 26,000 angry customers walking away.
Like that's the reality of providing a potentially damaging experience from a TA perspective.
(19:50):
Absolutely. Yeah. Now, I want to shift gear a little bit. So, Levyl is quite unique.
So, as I mentioned, it is a boutique HR and people and culture recruitment agency.
But one of the things that you're passionate about, Sarah, and very aligned
to my passion is around diversity, equity and inclusion.
(20:10):
Conclusion I think we can talk for hours about this topic but I was wondering
if you could share with us some of the things that level is doing yeah for sure
so yeah so we concentrate purely on filling people and culture roles,
In our commercial business, we work with a wide variety of different customers
from top ASX companies through to emerging fintechs, not-for-profits,
(20:31):
a little bit of everyone in between.
But what the market are now recognising us for in terms of reputation is our
values-focused approach to business.
Business and it was really, it
was a very clear ambition that I had in launching Levyl two almost coming up to
two and a half years ago that we wanted to establish a new baseline for what
(20:56):
recruitment firms are all about and we knew that being really clear and deliberate
in terms of what values we want to uphold,
what our ideologies are, what our hopes are for the industry was going to be
really key to being able to establish the right customer base and be able to
break down some barriers.
So what we have designed as a complementary program that sits next to our commercial
(21:19):
HR recruitment business is a diversity and inclusion program.
And what that program does is
it provides D&I consulting as a wraparound service to an identified hire.
And we've launched partnerships in market with subject
matter experts that can provide the insights
and expertise that we don't have so as
(21:40):
an example we're working with an organisation who are neurodiversity experts
to enable that stream we've got a great partnership with another organisation
for our LGBTQIA plus stream and in addition to the placement these experts lean
into that recruitment journey
and provide guidance on how the onboarding
(22:00):
process might need to be adapted or how the interview
questions might need to be tailored or you know
an example of our pride stream there's a mentoring match
that's made following placement to ensure that candidate
has the support that they require same from
a neurodiversity perspective but it's coaching instead of mentorship
and it's coming from a place from it's
(22:22):
coming from a place of recognition that people in culture as
a as a profession and the functions internally
in organisations they have so much
influence over who gets hired how
they get hired what what the culture how
the culture is set what the culture is what the environment looks like what
the policies look like you know that whole flow of working in life and how that
(22:44):
intersects with you know bringing a whole bunch of different people into a business
and going great make it work so you know we'd be we're motivated to help people
and culture teams build themselves from the perspective of actually enabling.
Of uplifting the diversity of representation within their own teams and then
enabling their environments at the same time so they can provide, you know,
(23:07):
different thinking to the organisations in which they represent and that they
can help them to become more progressive in their recruitment practices for the future. Yeah.
That's really exciting. And I tend to agree that you're starting to do this
in the people culture space and, you know, they tend to be role models in this
(23:28):
sort of type of behaviour, inclusive behaviour, inclusive leadership.
So to sort of set the tone in that population, that will then hopefully translate
into the broader organisation as well. So I think it's really powerful stuff.
And one of the things, just using neurodiversity as an example,
One of the seminars that I went to that Levyl had presented on,
(23:52):
there was one takeaway that I had around interviewing for neurodivergent candidates
where they're given the option to get the questions before the actual interview
so they can sort of start preparing.
So I guess they can really focus on performance on the day rather than worrying
about what am I going to be be asked on the day.
(24:12):
And what I love about that is although maybe we're looking at supporting this
population based on their needs,
it actually opens up more an inclusive practice for everyone as well.
So I think, you know, it's really powerful. And that's just one example. Good on you. Thank you.
I think it's a misconception out there that a lot of the revisions you can make
(24:37):
to a recruitment process in order to create a more inclusive experience.
It's costly and it takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of executive buy-in.
The example you just provided about agreeing on a set of interview questions
and tendering them in advance to ensure that you're assessing everybody that
comes through your door on the same criteria set, that doesn't cost anything.
(24:58):
Certainly some advancements beyond of that might take some expertise,
But, yeah, we're trying to go on a journey where we can win hearts and minds
with the diversity and inclusion conversation opener.
You know, the perspectives that are sitting around hiring tables and,
(25:18):
you know, it's all of these like little bits and pieces that we're able to get
out through customer and community engagement events,
where if you were to walk away and go, I'm going to approach my one hire differently,
I'm going to tend to interview questions in advance and then you build on that
and you do something further and then you build on that and you do something
further, that for us is a win.
You might not be participating in our program but for us, Plus,
(25:42):
you know, that whole, the way that we're contributing to industry as a whole
and society as a whole is really, really important to us. So that's a win.
Yeah, no, that's great. And I think the more of that, the better, I think for everyone.
So yes, it's very exciting.
I wanted to sort of get your gauge on things like hybrid. I know it's very topical at the moment.
(26:06):
So there are a lot of organisations, at least in Australia, some are mandating
going back back to the office five days a week.
I know hybrid's one of those things that people like or look for.
Whether it's hybrid, is there any other things that candidates are looking for
that employees need to sort of be mindful and flexible around?
(26:26):
Yes, there have been some big shifts recently. So hybrid working and flexible
working is still very much in demand.
Off the back of the New South Wales State Government announcement announcement
about bringing a lot of their workforce back into the office.
We've seen a handful of our customers lean on that as almost a justification
to shift the policies that they have in place and try to get people a little bit more back in person.
(26:53):
We also have a lot of organisations that, you know, they run big blue-collar
workforces or they're very customer-facing.
So they've got different reasons for moving away, you know, from what might
be a more flexible workforce.
So I think depending on the needs of the job seeker and the person,
flexibility does still come up all the time.
(27:15):
But interestingly, and I think heavily influenced in terms of where we're at
with the economy right now and the jobs market overall,
we are seeing stability and job security shoot way up the list in terms of desirables
and candidates are getting a lot more savvy about the types of questions that they're asking to
really ascertain that and feeling more comfortable asking those as well which
(27:38):
I think is a really positive step forward they also really in the essay they
you know we we all really want to feel connected to our workplaces we want to
feel a sense of psychosocial safety and belonging belonging,
we also want to understand what the vision is, what the purpose of our jobs
(27:59):
are, like how that feeds into the bigger picture,
so the whole meaningful work piece and being able to understand how your nine
to five factors into, you know, the nine to five of every other team member
there and what you're running towards, that's really, really important.
Probably on like a more technical level, we are also seeing a little bit of a divide between,
(28:19):
be created from a technology perspective so as
an example you know we're working with some generalist candidates
at the moment that are a bit earlier on in their HR careers some
of them have become very comfortable using chat GPT and
generative AI and now when
we're briefing them on new opportunities you know in different firms it's one
(28:41):
of the questions that gets asked it's like well what's the tech stack and can
I use chat GPT because if I can't I don't want to go back to having to manually
research and write everything for these policies and X, Y, Z. It's a learned skill.
And we're seeing the market respond to that as a learned skill.
And we're seeing that becoming a little bit more of a divide in terms of differentiating
(29:05):
what types of organisations you want to work for versus you don't.
Yeah, that's really interesting.
It is very topical at the moment. I guess it also links back into,
can I leverage technology so I can and spend more of my time doing that meaningful value-add work.
Yes. So, yeah. Exactly. They're really interesting and it's great that people
are asking those questions and being bold to ask those questions as well.
(29:27):
I mean, an example that I will speak to because I'm quite passionate about it
as well, the gender piece of diversity and inclusion is,
you know, I've been in agency recruitment for 14 years and I have had so many examples,
Anita, I cannot tell you how many over the past 10 years and it's gotten a lot
(29:47):
better over the last probably three to four and that's the shift which I'll speak to in a minute,
but of women actively interviewing for roles and inquiring through me about
what the parental leave policy is but then actually asking me not to ask the
client for fear of recourse of how that question will then be assumed as an
(30:09):
intent to start a family,
how that may work against them in the interview process.
But the shift over the last three to four years, a lot of candidates have now,
and, you know, not just women, people that are starting families on that journey
from all different types of backgrounds are now being much more confident and
forthcoming in asking, you know, well, what are the policies that are on offer?
(30:33):
How will I be supported from a parental leave perspective? What does it look like for X, Y, Z?
And I think that's a really, really positive step forward.
It's like signing up to marry somebody without knowing, you know,
the nuts and bolts of who that person is.
Like it just seems crazy to me that it was something that was such a taboo topic
(30:54):
only a handful of years ago.
Yeah. Yeah, it's a really good point and I think it also leads into just being transparent as well.
So I've also noticed some organisations being more open and transparent about
their policies to the extent even in their job ads it might have a statement
around things like parental leave and what their offer is.
So, yes, it's good to see that shift so it's not all hidden and people need
(31:19):
to find out once they join the organisation and it can be a bit of a deal breaker sometimes as well.
Absolutely. And candidates notice it. When you say like I think there's pros
and cons of the little disclaimers at the end of advertisements but I think
when it's used authentically with the intent of communicating that you're open
to hiring people people from different backgrounds or you have inclusive policies
(31:41):
and you're making a deliberate attempt to go, hey,
this is us, this is what we can offer, this is what we've got,
most people respond well to it because the opposite is, you know,
it's ambiguity or it's no detail and that puts the onus and the pressure back
on the candidate to go through a deeper discovery mission to then determine
(32:02):
whether that's an environment they want to be in for the next two, five, ten years. Yeah.
So to finish off, we spoke a lot about candidates and job seekers and you've
given us some amazing tips for that cohort.
But on the flip side, can you give us two or three tips that you can give employers
(32:23):
or hiring managers when it comes to effective recruitment?
Absolutely. So my first tip would be to prioritise communication and to be really
clear and really transparent.
Even if there's no update, reach out to anybody who's engaged in your process
and just let them know that the team is still deliberating or it might take
(32:44):
another week for feedback, but take them on that journey with you and really
prioritise that communication because,
candidates spend hours, days, weeks, and so much investment is put into these processes.
So it's a bare minimum that you can really offer.
I would encourage hiring managers and organisations to invest in their employer brand as well.
(33:07):
Be really loud and proud about who you are. Find the right vocabulary.
Understand where you sit in the market and communicate that with intent because
the organisations that do place a focus on that and they double down on that,
they attract better people and they retain them.
And then thirdly, I would encourage
(33:27):
anybody that is going to be hiring for their team or their organisation next
12 to 18 months to consider how you can interweave diversity and inclusion principles
into your recruitment process to ensure that you can attract a broader cross-section of people,
more diverse range of people to your business.
(33:49):
And then go on that journey of constant iteration to then weave in those principles
to the recruitment process, to the onboarding journey, to ensure that you can
set up people to succeed and create an inclusive culture.
You know, we have seen so many redundancies and restructures hit the market
and I would just love, love it if we were sitting here in 12 to 18 months time
(34:14):
and we had organisations going, okay, great.
You know, we need to hire 15, 20 people to build out our people culture team.
And we don't just want the same 15, 20 people that we've always hired that fit
into these four walls in this box,
but we're actually going to reflect on the diversity of
our team and the makeup of our organisation and what
skills and what lived experience that we can benefit
(34:36):
from and what we can accommodate and support and actually
hire those 15 to 20 roles with that intent being really
deliberate from a diversity and inclusion angle as
well yeah absolutely and i can definitely echo that yes
there is a role to fill but equally
that advocacy is really important that transparency that communication
(34:57):
and you know what I what you said
I loved around taking someone on that journey I think really helps and you know
we've always mentioned that it takes a lot of time invested in these processes
as well for both parties so we want to make sure that both parties get the most
out of it exactly exactly Sarah it's been.
(35:19):
Wonderful to talk to you today to talk about recruitment
and what level is doing which is quite progressive so it's really exciting to
hear and follow what happens in in that space especially in DNI and thank you
and thank you for joining social enterprise thank you for having us on Anita
we really appreciate it's been great to see you.
(35:42):
It was so good to get to hear some of the insights from Sarah.
I'd like to think that recruitment in the people and culture space provides
a really good indication of what's happening across other roles and the organisation more broadly.
But it's great to hear that companies like Level are trying to partner and promote
and educate on the importance of coupling recruitment activity with more broader
(36:04):
topics such as diversity, equity and inclusion.
I'll leave in the show notes information on Levyl if you want to know more about
Sarah and Levyl, as well as a link to a recent episode I released on redundancies
that some of you may find useful,
especially if you're currently a job seeker as a result of being impacted by a redundancy or layoff.
(36:25):
I want to leave you with a message of hope.
I know there are many people out there who are looking for their next job opportunity,
but may be finding it quite challenging.
I want to urge you to hang in there and don't lose your confidence.
It's a very tight labour market we're
experiencing right now across many markets but
(36:46):
remember that things tend to trend as
a cycle so it might be an employer's market at the moment but that pendulum
will eventually swing the other way we discussed many useful tips today and
i hope they can be helpful in your job search or if you're finding it's challenging
to attract the right talent if you're needing to hire until next time stay safe and well.
(37:10):
Music.
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