August 10, 2025 • 28 mins
Feeling unsure about where your relationship is headed? Wondering if it’s time to stay or go?
Global sex and relationship expert and author Dr Gabrielle Morrissey joins Belinda Lee to discuss one of the most difficult relationship questions: should I stay or should I go?
In Part One of this two-part episode, Dr Morrissey discusses love bombing, the subtle signs of loneliness within a relationship, and the role of intuition in knowing whether to stay or go.
If you’re standing at the crossroads, searching for courage or clarity, this episode offers expert insights and practical wisdom to help you take the next step, whatever that may be.
GET IN TOUCH: Step Into Me Website | Instagram | Belle's Facebook | Insights Newsletter | Email: info@stepintomepodcast.com
EPISODE LINKS: Gabrielle Morrissey | The Divorce Diaries | Women's Resilience Centre | Brene Brown | The Divorced Sexologist
DISCLAIMER: The information shared in this podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only. I am not a medical professional. If you’re experiencing health or mental health issues, please seek advice from a qualified healthcare provider.
CREDITS: Theme Music: "Strive to Be Better" by Craig Riley (licensed) Incidental Music: "Losing a Love" & "Day of the Wedding"(freesfx)
#StepIntoMePodcast #GabrielleMorrissey #ShouldIStayOrShouldIGo #BreakupPodcast #RelationshipAdvice #MovingOn #Breakup #RelationshipPodcast #Divorce #LifeAfterDivorce #BreakingUp
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello and welcome to Step Into Me, the podcast where we explore what it truly means to find
(00:05):
the courage to be true to yourself.
I'm Belinda Lee and today we are talking divorce, separation and breakups and that age
old question, should I stay or should I go?
My guest is someone whose work might already be familiar to many of you.
Dr Gabrielle Morrissey is a global expert in sex and relationships.
(00:28):
She's authored three internationally selling books, has trained relationship counsellors
across the world.
She's the CEO of Australia's Women's Resilience Centre and pens The Divorce Diaries for
Mamamia.
But, beyond her impressive credentials, Dr Morrissey has also walked this path.
(00:49):
An unhealthy relationship, first of all, has that little voice where it's telling you
or that feeling that's telling you something is not right here.
Well Dr Morrissey's insights were simply too valuable for a single episode.
So, for the first time, we'll be spreading our conversation across two episodes giving
(01:09):
you the full benefit of her remarkable knowledge and personal story.
Today, part one, we discuss what it's like to face that impossible question.
Should I stay or should I go?
It begins with hope.
(01:32):
Two people standing before family and friends looking into each other's eyes with nothing but
promise.
The vows are spoken, the rings exchanged and your friends and family applaud as you enjoy
that first kiss.
But for some, the fairytale doesn't last.
(01:57):
As today's guest, Dr Gabrielle Morrissey knows all too well, even a leading voice in relationships
can be blindsided.
And I got married before this term love bombing was widely understood.
And so I fell prey so to speak to being love bombed.
(02:20):
But I also say often, there is no person that has any guarantee that their relationship
will work out.
Not just because I might be a quote expert and know more, but life is constantly throwing
curveballs at us.
(02:41):
And so we just never know what's coming.
We can be in deep, authentic, genuine, passionate love at one stage in the relationship.
And that still doesn't mean that a long term monogamous decades, era-spanning, marriage
is going to work.
(03:01):
It's just not, well, we could have this argument or not have this argument.
But many would say it's not actually a natural human condition to be monogamous with one
partner for their whole life.
It's a cultural construct.
And so we fight a lot of different circumstances in our lives to stay in a relationship with one
(03:23):
person across our entire lifespan.
It's a huge challenge to us as humans to do that.
I've often said it should be a five year contract.
Yes, and then you can choose to renew.
It's funny, but there's a serious element to that idea, which is that that's really
what counseling couples is all about is checking into where you are.
(03:47):
I mean, you should do it more often than five years actually.
And stop the tendency to grow apart and really keep checking in that you're tracking together
on the same page, heading in the same direction with the same goals and dreams because you are
not, when you get married, you don't turn into one person.
A healthy relationship has two distinct individuals still in it.
(04:11):
You know, your two has Khalil Gibran says you're still two separate pillars to build a solid
foundation.
If you became one, the whole thing wobbles and falls over.
So you really need your individuality, but that means constantly checking in with one another
to make sure that you're going in the same direction at the same time with the same aims
(04:31):
and experiences and wishes and goals and that's where the challenge lies.
So in hindsight, is there anything that you would have done differently?
I mean, do you think that we should be more aware of things like love bombing?
Definitely people should be looking for love bombing because it's a sign of an unhealthy
relationship to come, which is it's sort of like that adage if it's too good to be true,
(04:56):
it probably is.
So if someone is purporting to meet your every single need and it's every dream come true
and you never argue and everything you ever wanted is wrapped into one person who is just,
you know, your prince charming, everything in the fairytale for you, that's just not real life
(05:24):
and you need to sort of pop that bubble and look more critically at that person and how
well you actually know them beyond the facade because when you're dating, everybody puts
on their mask and their best foot forward.
And if you are rushing, love bombing is usually short term.
So those are those whirlwind romances.
(05:46):
I eloped, that was Red Flag number probably about 10 and I'd ignored several.
You really need to look at getting to know your partner before you get into legal contracts
and involve buying property and things like having babies and permanent things that are
(06:06):
more difficult to undo because it's through time that mask comes down.
So you know, things like if you take a trip together, if you meet each other's families,
like these are all quote, traditions, but they have good, solid science underneath them
to test through that biochemical and sociological mask that we put on when we're in limerence
(06:34):
or that lust mode.
So you really do want to challenge one another before you make a major commitment.
So you know what you're getting into in terms of the downs as well as the ups.
So that's something I would have changed - the rushing into marriage.
And I think take a good look at what's motivating you to get married too, a lot of times you
(06:57):
hear about people who want the wedding but not the marriage or they fall in love with the
fairytale or they've left it too late in their own mind.
They think, oh, this is, it's now or never.
This is my chance to have kids.
I better just do it and so they rush into something which is, you know, kids is of the worst
motivator to have a marriage because things only get harder and more complicated with kids.
(07:22):
If I had the formula, everybody would want it and it would, you know, I would have the
winning formula, which I don't.
But there are definitely things that we need to look at in terms of green flags, red flags,
and beige flags and what is motivating you to make that commitment and how much of you
(07:42):
thought it through and how much of your own network have you brought in and what do they
think?
You know, they're warning signs if none of your friends like him or your family doesn't
even know him.
Take a look at what those signs are telling you.
When we think separation or divorce, we might assume that, you know, things have turned
nasty or lots of arguments and this sort of thing, but sometimes it's just a feeling inside
(08:07):
or an emptiness feeling lonely in the relationship or people as we know just sometimes drift apart.
You end up on different paths.
But what are some of those flags that we should be looking out for?
Well, the red flags that are there at the outset won't disappear.
People don't change very easily.
I mean, that's the whole point of counselling is to try to inspire people to learn how to
(08:34):
do things or respond to things differently.
It's very, very difficult.
We have to be taught how to do it.
So when you're dating somebody, when you see their behaviours, you should take them for
what they are.
That's who they are and they're showing you.
So you can't think, oh, it was just something he did because he was extraordinarily stressed.
Well, then you have that piece of information now that that's how he's going to be when
(08:57):
he's extraordinarily stressed.
That's just not a one-off thing.
So your red flags are really in, there's several different kinds.
There are the smaller ones in that these are things that could create conflict and then
there are really big ones that have to do with character and respect and communication.
(09:20):
Those won't change unless you work very hard at it.
So if you have communication difficulties at the start, you're going to have them a year
in and five years in.
Any kind of disrespect or disregard or controlling possessiveness in today's world with technology,
(09:41):
tracking and the demand to want to know where your partner is, where you are.
That's a big red flag because you need to have some autonomy and individuality in your
relationship.
That's freedom.
And so if you're giving that up or being not just coerced, but sort of threatened or teased
(10:05):
or anything that makes you feel like you don't have your own free mind and free will, that's
a huge red flag.
So you need to be able to have your freedom of choice.
And there are studies that show, still today, 2025, that there are men who are...a third of
men in Australia actually and global studies are around that sort of one third, one quarter
(10:31):
of men believe that they have the veto power in a relationship for decisions that anything's
negotiable, but then they have the bottom line say.
And also they have the right, not the choice, but the right to know where their partner is.
So these are slippery slopes to go down in a relationship.
You need to build trust, have good communication and know that you are free in your relationship,
(10:57):
you're free to go, you're free to choose them every day.
And like it's a mutually respectful choosing relationship.
Even if it's legally binding, you still make that choice to be in that relationship.
And this is what we're seeing less and less of as more women start to report that they
(11:18):
feel controlled.
So that's a huge red flag.
I think it was Maya Angelou who said when people show you who they are, believe them, it's so true.
Exactly.
So how do we distinguish between say normal relationship challenges and every relationship
has its challenges and those deeper problems that maybe we should start thinking about moving
(11:40):
on.
And there's some really interesting research around this and the first thing I'm going to say
at the risk of sounding non-scientific, non-academic and a little woo woo is actually there is science
around female intuition.
So if something in your, and I'm speaking to women here... unhealthy relationships happen to
women and women, but in terms of this piece of research, the female intuition that gut feeling
(12:05):
that you're not aligned really with your value set or what you know to be right, know how
you ought to be heard being treated, respected, that is a very powerful force that we tend to
silence because we have all kinds of other conditioning and people pleasing and gender
(12:29):
norms that silence that female intuition.
So an unhealthy relationship, first of all, has that little voice where it's telling you
or that feeling that's telling you something is not right here.
Like this is going on too long, too long.
And when women tell you that they've left after the final straw was when he had that fight
(12:51):
and called me names in front of the kids or when the kids finally got involved, when you
hear about that element of, but then he brought the kids into it and that was the final
straw.
You know that there are months, if not years, of that kind of pattern of behaviour affecting
just them where their voice has been quashed down and we need to learn to listen to our voices
(13:15):
earlier.
It doesn't mean we have to just rush out and leave, but we have to address what is it saying
that isn't right and who can I talk to about that?
Because is this a sign of an unhealthy relationship or an abusive relationship?
A relationship that is going through conflict where we can find our way back in a healthy
communication and way and rebond or a relationship that has been going down this road for far
(13:41):
too long and it's time to actually be free of it because it's never going to change.
So to learn the differences between that, first is what is, what are you telling yourself?
What have you been telling yourself in the quiet nights?
What is it like if he goes away and then he comes back on a work trip they might say it
(14:01):
was fantastic and then, but when he comes home, there's like a, just a bad vibe that hits
the house or he comes home from work and it's back to egg shells or I brace myself because
I know a fight is for sure going to come or he opens that bottle of drink and I know in
two hours we'll be fighting.
So if you can see what the patterns are, you're in a relationship that's not healthy and
(14:26):
you need to look at how bad they are in order to determine is this salvageable or is it
abuse and control and you've, you've actually better off being out of it.
So I can't stress counseling enough because that's really hard to just see by yourself when
you're in it.
You have to articulate it to a council and I say councillor rather than girlfriend, we
(14:48):
can do it with friends and family but usually when you bring somebody in that you know, they
have their own agenda and they're not trained to kind of bracket that to the side because
they'll bring their own thoughts and perceptions and feelings and cloud it even more and so
the good thing about counselling is it's neutral.
They just want what's best for you or to hold up a mirror so you can figure it out for
(15:10):
yourself.
So do you think it's harder to leave when you're in a relationship with say a narcissist
and I'm asking this question for personal reasons because I spent the best part of a
decade in a relationship which should have ended years and years and years beforehand but
it was just that constant cycle of the criticisms and then my memories or reality was somehow
(15:38):
twisted and turned to the point where I would feel like I was going crazy, talk about leaving
and moving on and then that's when they just give you that little glimpse, that little
bit of hope that this relationship could be fantastic and then suddenly things go well
again for a while until those criticisms and all that sort of thing start and there
(16:01):
were of course there's the guilt attached with that because you think why did I ever feel
badly about this person... Is it harder because I just felt myself going crazy and didn't
know which way was up for a while.
So what do you say to the person who's in that kind of relationship?
Well there's really two versions of that there's the person that that somewhere either deep
(16:22):
down or not so deep down knows they're with a narcissist and so they know that they're
in the cycle and there are lots of other powerful motivators keeping them there that are
very valid, no judgement, extremely valid, it might be children, it might be finances, it
might be low self esteem, it might be messages, it might be just comfort and familiarity
(16:47):
and not wanting to live life alone, there's fear, there's all kinds of reasons why people
choose a bad relationship over no relationship.
So there's people who know what they're in and they're struggling with how to cope with
it and then there are people who either don't know what a narcissist is or they don't
(17:08):
believe that their partner is a narcissist.
And so they don't know the cycle that they're in and they can't recognise the signs, they
see the pattern but they don't see how manipulated they're being with tactics like breadcrumbing
and gas lighting which is altering your reality to make you think not just that you're crazy
(17:29):
but that you're remembering everything wrong and you can never win an argument because
they're constantly changing reality on you and memories on you.
And breadcrumbing when you know you'll hear people will say when it's good it's amazing,
it's great and you're getting just enough of that good to keep you sort of down the trail
(17:51):
of the relationship because there's just tiny bits of treats along the way whereas the
rest of the time when it's bad, it's really bad.
So it's particularly complicated when somebody's in a relationship with a narcissist and they
don't see the patterns and they don't know quite what they're dealing with and they
(18:12):
recognise it after they've left and again it comes down to how do you feel in your relationship?
When you wake up are you looking forward to the day, do they make you feel like you're
added value to the relationship and your shared life together?
Is there more good than bad?
(18:34):
Do you enjoy doing things together or are there lots of put downs and critiques?
Are there mocking you know that mean humour?
Have things become where there's more negative than positive because really in a relationship
in this day and age we expect some form of equality.
(18:58):
It may not always look exactly equal and if you listen to Brene Brown she goes through
this, the two of you make up to be a hundred so you may not always be 50/50 in terms of
contribution and energy, domestic labour, emotional connection but when you're honest in communicating
(19:19):
and saying you know I've got so many other things going on with work and my ill mother and
I've only got 30 then your partner very lovingly will say I've got 70 to give to the relationship
then I've got 70 to give to you I'll give a little more while you've got less and vice
versa back and forth.
(19:39):
When you have that kind of mutually respectful openly communicative you can say that without
feeling worry, anxiety, guilt, shame that's a healthy relationship.
If you feel any of what I've described you're in an unhealthy relationship and that's
when it really takes counselling and if you go into a counselling session with a narcissist
(20:05):
and you start to see elements of gas lighting, blaming you because most narcissists can't
take any kind of personal responsibility or they're shifting the story or love bombing
the therapist as in trying to be super charming and shifting the dynamic and you kind of like
(20:26):
who is this person in this counselling session?
I don't know this person then you know you're dealing with a narcissist and someone who's
not bringing their authentic self into the room and it's going to be very difficult to
create something healthy with someone who's not being authentic with you if you don't recognise
them, run, it's time to call it, call it for what it is and that's very difficult for many
(20:52):
women to do and many women who've left a narcissist will say they waited way, way, way
too long because the tactics are very compelling.
Their whole design is to keep you with them that's so it's very difficult to leave.
One of the reasons that you know that I got in touch with you was because I absolutely
loved one of the responses that you gave on the Mamamia site on The Divorce Diaries.
(21:15):
It was to a woman who loved her husband but felt that they were no longer in love with
each other and they sort of had that empty feeling and she wanted to know should she just
suck it up and stick it out but you suggested counselling but not of the ordinary type of
counselling. This was counselling to potentially transition a split which I just thought was
(21:38):
fantastic. I'd never heard of it before. So can you elaborate on how beneficial that type
of counselling can be?
Sure and I think this is a new area of counselling that people don't realise is out there for you.
I think it was laughed about with the whole Gwyneth Paltrow and Chris Martin conscious un-coupling
(21:59):
but that's really what it means if you're looking at parting ways and it's in a situation
like that where you can just tell the relationship is come to it's used by date. It's not serving
each of you the way you are now as people needing to be loved if you're not happy just
(22:21):
in this sort of empty companionate relationship and one or both of you want something more.
There hasn't been a great big dramatic betrayal ending that has that fiery anger to it.
A couple therapists will often talk about a pendulum when they're dealing with clients
and they'll go oh this is a very passionate couple. Their pendulum swings from hot lustful
(22:48):
passion on the one hand and then they'll swing right the way over to anger and betrayal
and hate and that's really how you can get couples who've experienced say cheating for example
to come back to getting over it and being together because they're a passion you've got
energy and emotion and care and investment emotional investment to work with.
(23:11):
The apathetic couples where they're done more than lost their mojo they've lost all kind
of positive regard for each other outside of that sort of friend zone they're just apathetic
there in the middle and their pendulum barely swings they're in the sexless marriage their
needs aren't being met they've long lost they've maybe tried counselling to stay together
(23:34):
over and over before they bargained to stay together until the kids were older and out and
they question now why are we in this together?
So there's lots of reasons one would go to a counsellor to try to stay together because
that's what they just one or both of them in a determined that's what they really want
but there are a lot of couples that need help transitioning to separating they need
(24:01):
to come to the realisation to feel validated that that's an okay place to be that this relationship
has served its purpose and given each other a great amount of joy and freedom and all
of things relationships can bring you but then if you get to a point where it no longer
(24:24):
serves that original purpose and you haven't found new purpose together as parents or business
partners or whatever that other people stay together for then having someone counsel
you through how to be your better self when you're splitting as opposed to the worst version
of yourself because we tend to gravitate towards what feels good and then we avoid things
(24:46):
that feel bad so when you're going through a split and you're not wanting to hurt them
or you're not wanting to sit with your discomfort and you're having to have the conversations
with your friends and family that you're divorcing and this some people will feel I know I
did a huge feelings of failure that I didn't do it I didn't do what we're supposed to
(25:07):
do which is get married and then stay together and make it work so there's all there's
all kinds of reasons why people don't bring their best selves to a split there's all these
negative feelings internally that's when resentments that they've been feeling come out
or just even going through the physical split of who's going to live where and who's
(25:29):
going to have the dog and who you know do we sell and split or do all those practical
decisions to be coached through how you can have good regard for each other through
that process and after that process without losing the memory and sight of there was something
you loved that person in the beginning you shared a lot with that person and that bond
(25:53):
is part of your story part even if you don't ever share another story let's say you don't
have kids and you've got nothing you're never going to see them as the shared grandchildren
or anything again you still have in your life experience stories and memories of intimacy
deep intimacy with that person that may not be sexual it may be you know the comforting
that comes from someone knowing you really really well and so being able to have that positive
(26:18):
experience in splits is ultimately what will heal you faster to enable you to move on with
your life whether that's another relationship or not and have a better experience rather
than a worse experience. Divorce coaches also do this not just counsellors so divorce coaches
(26:39):
we often think of divorce coaches as someone who's you know sort of on side with your lawyer
and is going to be aggressive and assertive and and fight for you in your corner but a divorce
coach doesn't necessarily do that it's not just a financial coach it's someone who's
wanting to get you through an extremely tumultuous experience out on the other side with you
(27:02):
being the best version of yourself and if you have to have an ongoing relationship of any
kind with your ex if that can be better rather than worse let's opt for that how do we get
to that? Well Dr Morrissey that is where we leave the conversation today thank you so much
for today's chat and we will continue next week on Step Into Me - thank you. My pleasure
(27:24):
thank you so much. And thank you for joining us for part one of the conversation. Next week,
we'll be diving even deeper talking about how to separate the right way. Do people ever
regret getting divorced? Should we step in if someone we care about is in a troubled relationship?
And is it better to be single and happy or married and depressed? What are your thoughts? Let
(27:50):
us know. You can email info@stepintomepodcast.com Well, you'll find the links to Dr Morrissey's
Divorce Diaries column, her books, and other helpful resources in the show notes today and if you
don't want to miss part two, do be sure to follow or subscribe. I'm Belinda Lee and this is Step Into
Me - helping you find the courage to be true to yourself
(28:13):
[MUSIC]
Hello and welcome to Step Into Me, the podcast where we explore what it truly means to find
(00:05):
the courage to be true to yourself.
I'm Belinda Lee and today we are talking divorce, separation and breakups and that age
old question, should I stay or should I go?
My guest is someone whose work might already be familiar to many of you.
Dr Gabrielle Morrissey is a global expert in sex and relationships.
(00:28):
She's authored three internationally selling books, has trained relationship counsellors
across the world.
She's the CEO of Australia's Women's Resilience Centre and pens The Divorce Diaries for
Mamamia.
But, beyond her impressive credentials, Dr Morrissey has also walked this path.
(00:49):
An unhealthy relationship, first of all, has that little voice where it's telling you
or that feeling that's telling you something is not right here.
Well Dr Morrissey's insights were simply too valuable for a single episode.
So, for the first time, we'll be spreading our conversation across two episodes giving
(01:09):
you the full benefit of her remarkable knowledge and personal story.
Today, part one, we discuss what it's like to face that impossible question.
Should I stay or should I go?
It begins with hope.
(01:32):
Two people standing before family and friends looking into each other's eyes with nothing but
promise.
The vows are spoken, the rings exchanged and your friends and family applaud as you enjoy
that first kiss.
But for some, the fairytale doesn't last.
(01:57):
As today's guest, Dr Gabrielle Morrissey knows all too well, even a leading voice in relationships
can be blindsided.
And I got married before this term love bombing was widely understood.
And so I fell prey so to speak to being love bombed.
(02:20):
But I also say often, there is no person that has any guarantee that their relationship
will work out.
Not just because I might be a quote expert and know more, but life is constantly throwing
curveballs at us.
(02:41):
And so we just never know what's coming.
We can be in deep, authentic, genuine, passionate love at one stage in the relationship.
And that still doesn't mean that a long term monogamous decades, era-spanning, marriage
is going to work.
(03:01):
It's just not, well, we could have this argument or not have this argument.
But many would say it's not actually a natural human condition to be monogamous with one
partner for their whole life.
It's a cultural construct.
And so we fight a lot of different circumstances in our lives to stay in a relationship with one
(03:23):
person across our entire lifespan.
It's a huge challenge to us as humans to do that.
I've often said it should be a five year contract.
Yes, and then you can choose to renew.
It's funny, but there's a serious element to that idea, which is that that's really
what counseling couples is all about is checking into where you are.
(03:47):
I mean, you should do it more often than five years actually.
And stop the tendency to grow apart and really keep checking in that you're tracking together
on the same page, heading in the same direction with the same goals and dreams because you are
not, when you get married, you don't turn into one person.
A healthy relationship has two distinct individuals still in it.
(04:11):
You know, your two has Khalil Gibran says you're still two separate pillars to build a solid
foundation.
If you became one, the whole thing wobbles and falls over.
So you really need your individuality, but that means constantly checking in with one another
to make sure that you're going in the same direction at the same time with the same aims
(04:31):
and experiences and wishes and goals and that's where the challenge lies.
So in hindsight, is there anything that you would have done differently?
I mean, do you think that we should be more aware of things like love bombing?
Definitely people should be looking for love bombing because it's a sign of an unhealthy
relationship to come, which is it's sort of like that adage if it's too good to be true,
(04:56):
it probably is.
So if someone is purporting to meet your every single need and it's every dream come true
and you never argue and everything you ever wanted is wrapped into one person who is just,
you know, your prince charming, everything in the fairytale for you, that's just not real life
(05:24):
and you need to sort of pop that bubble and look more critically at that person and how
well you actually know them beyond the facade because when you're dating, everybody puts
on their mask and their best foot forward.
And if you are rushing, love bombing is usually short term.
So those are those whirlwind romances.
(05:46):
I eloped, that was Red Flag number probably about 10 and I'd ignored several.
You really need to look at getting to know your partner before you get into legal contracts
and involve buying property and things like having babies and permanent things that are
(06:06):
more difficult to undo because it's through time that mask comes down.
So you know, things like if you take a trip together, if you meet each other's families,
like these are all quote, traditions, but they have good, solid science underneath them
to test through that biochemical and sociological mask that we put on when we're in limerence
(06:34):
or that lust mode.
So you really do want to challenge one another before you make a major commitment.
So you know what you're getting into in terms of the downs as well as the ups.
So that's something I would have changed - the rushing into marriage.
And I think take a good look at what's motivating you to get married too, a lot of times you
(06:57):
hear about people who want the wedding but not the marriage or they fall in love with the
fairytale or they've left it too late in their own mind.
They think, oh, this is, it's now or never.
This is my chance to have kids.
I better just do it and so they rush into something which is, you know, kids is of the worst
motivator to have a marriage because things only get harder and more complicated with kids.
(07:22):
If I had the formula, everybody would want it and it would, you know, I would have the
winning formula, which I don't.
But there are definitely things that we need to look at in terms of green flags, red flags,
and beige flags and what is motivating you to make that commitment and how much of you
(07:42):
thought it through and how much of your own network have you brought in and what do they
think?
You know, they're warning signs if none of your friends like him or your family doesn't
even know him.
Take a look at what those signs are telling you.
When we think separation or divorce, we might assume that, you know, things have turned
nasty or lots of arguments and this sort of thing, but sometimes it's just a feeling inside
(08:07):
or an emptiness feeling lonely in the relationship or people as we know just sometimes drift apart.
You end up on different paths.
But what are some of those flags that we should be looking out for?
Well, the red flags that are there at the outset won't disappear.
People don't change very easily.
I mean, that's the whole point of counselling is to try to inspire people to learn how to
(08:34):
do things or respond to things differently.
It's very, very difficult.
We have to be taught how to do it.
So when you're dating somebody, when you see their behaviours, you should take them for
what they are.
That's who they are and they're showing you.
So you can't think, oh, it was just something he did because he was extraordinarily stressed.
Well, then you have that piece of information now that that's how he's going to be when
(08:57):
he's extraordinarily stressed.
That's just not a one-off thing.
So your red flags are really in, there's several different kinds.
There are the smaller ones in that these are things that could create conflict and then
there are really big ones that have to do with character and respect and communication.
(09:20):
Those won't change unless you work very hard at it.
So if you have communication difficulties at the start, you're going to have them a year
in and five years in.
Any kind of disrespect or disregard or controlling possessiveness in today's world with technology,
(09:41):
tracking and the demand to want to know where your partner is, where you are.
That's a big red flag because you need to have some autonomy and individuality in your
relationship.
That's freedom.
And so if you're giving that up or being not just coerced, but sort of threatened or teased
(10:05):
or anything that makes you feel like you don't have your own free mind and free will, that's
a huge red flag.
So you need to be able to have your freedom of choice.
And there are studies that show, still today, 2025, that there are men who are...a third of
men in Australia actually and global studies are around that sort of one third, one quarter
(10:31):
of men believe that they have the veto power in a relationship for decisions that anything's
negotiable, but then they have the bottom line say.
And also they have the right, not the choice, but the right to know where their partner is.
So these are slippery slopes to go down in a relationship.
You need to build trust, have good communication and know that you are free in your relationship,
(10:57):
you're free to go, you're free to choose them every day.
And like it's a mutually respectful choosing relationship.
Even if it's legally binding, you still make that choice to be in that relationship.
And this is what we're seeing less and less of as more women start to report that they
(11:18):
feel controlled.
So that's a huge red flag.
I think it was Maya Angelou who said when people show you who they are, believe them, it's so true.
Exactly.
So how do we distinguish between say normal relationship challenges and every relationship
has its challenges and those deeper problems that maybe we should start thinking about moving
(11:40):
on.
And there's some really interesting research around this and the first thing I'm going to say
at the risk of sounding non-scientific, non-academic and a little woo woo is actually there is science
around female intuition.
So if something in your, and I'm speaking to women here... unhealthy relationships happen to
women and women, but in terms of this piece of research, the female intuition that gut feeling
(12:05):
that you're not aligned really with your value set or what you know to be right, know how
you ought to be heard being treated, respected, that is a very powerful force that we tend to
silence because we have all kinds of other conditioning and people pleasing and gender
(12:29):
norms that silence that female intuition.
So an unhealthy relationship, first of all, has that little voice where it's telling you
or that feeling that's telling you something is not right here.
Like this is going on too long, too long.
And when women tell you that they've left after the final straw was when he had that fight
(12:51):
and called me names in front of the kids or when the kids finally got involved, when you
hear about that element of, but then he brought the kids into it and that was the final
straw.
You know that there are months, if not years, of that kind of pattern of behaviour affecting
just them where their voice has been quashed down and we need to learn to listen to our voices
(13:15):
earlier.
It doesn't mean we have to just rush out and leave, but we have to address what is it saying
that isn't right and who can I talk to about that?
Because is this a sign of an unhealthy relationship or an abusive relationship?
A relationship that is going through conflict where we can find our way back in a healthy
communication and way and rebond or a relationship that has been going down this road for far
(13:41):
too long and it's time to actually be free of it because it's never going to change.
So to learn the differences between that, first is what is, what are you telling yourself?
What have you been telling yourself in the quiet nights?
What is it like if he goes away and then he comes back on a work trip they might say it
(14:01):
was fantastic and then, but when he comes home, there's like a, just a bad vibe that hits
the house or he comes home from work and it's back to egg shells or I brace myself because
I know a fight is for sure going to come or he opens that bottle of drink and I know in
two hours we'll be fighting.
So if you can see what the patterns are, you're in a relationship that's not healthy and
(14:26):
you need to look at how bad they are in order to determine is this salvageable or is it
abuse and control and you've, you've actually better off being out of it.
So I can't stress counseling enough because that's really hard to just see by yourself when
you're in it.
You have to articulate it to a council and I say councillor rather than girlfriend, we
(14:48):
can do it with friends and family but usually when you bring somebody in that you know, they
have their own agenda and they're not trained to kind of bracket that to the side because
they'll bring their own thoughts and perceptions and feelings and cloud it even more and so
the good thing about counselling is it's neutral.
They just want what's best for you or to hold up a mirror so you can figure it out for
(15:10):
yourself.
So do you think it's harder to leave when you're in a relationship with say a narcissist
and I'm asking this question for personal reasons because I spent the best part of a
decade in a relationship which should have ended years and years and years beforehand but
it was just that constant cycle of the criticisms and then my memories or reality was somehow
(15:38):
twisted and turned to the point where I would feel like I was going crazy, talk about leaving
and moving on and then that's when they just give you that little glimpse, that little
bit of hope that this relationship could be fantastic and then suddenly things go well
again for a while until those criticisms and all that sort of thing start and there
(16:01):
were of course there's the guilt attached with that because you think why did I ever feel
badly about this person... Is it harder because I just felt myself going crazy and didn't
know which way was up for a while.
So what do you say to the person who's in that kind of relationship?
Well there's really two versions of that there's the person that that somewhere either deep
(16:22):
down or not so deep down knows they're with a narcissist and so they know that they're
in the cycle and there are lots of other powerful motivators keeping them there that are
very valid, no judgement, extremely valid, it might be children, it might be finances, it
might be low self esteem, it might be messages, it might be just comfort and familiarity
(16:47):
and not wanting to live life alone, there's fear, there's all kinds of reasons why people
choose a bad relationship over no relationship.
So there's people who know what they're in and they're struggling with how to cope with
it and then there are people who either don't know what a narcissist is or they don't
(17:08):
believe that their partner is a narcissist.
And so they don't know the cycle that they're in and they can't recognise the signs, they
see the pattern but they don't see how manipulated they're being with tactics like breadcrumbing
and gas lighting which is altering your reality to make you think not just that you're crazy
(17:29):
but that you're remembering everything wrong and you can never win an argument because
they're constantly changing reality on you and memories on you.
And breadcrumbing when you know you'll hear people will say when it's good it's amazing,
it's great and you're getting just enough of that good to keep you sort of down the trail
(17:51):
of the relationship because there's just tiny bits of treats along the way whereas the
rest of the time when it's bad, it's really bad.
So it's particularly complicated when somebody's in a relationship with a narcissist and they
don't see the patterns and they don't know quite what they're dealing with and they
(18:12):
recognise it after they've left and again it comes down to how do you feel in your relationship?
When you wake up are you looking forward to the day, do they make you feel like you're
added value to the relationship and your shared life together?
Is there more good than bad?
(18:34):
Do you enjoy doing things together or are there lots of put downs and critiques?
Are there mocking you know that mean humour?
Have things become where there's more negative than positive because really in a relationship
in this day and age we expect some form of equality.
(18:58):
It may not always look exactly equal and if you listen to Brene Brown she goes through
this, the two of you make up to be a hundred so you may not always be 50/50 in terms of
contribution and energy, domestic labour, emotional connection but when you're honest in communicating
(19:19):
and saying you know I've got so many other things going on with work and my ill mother and
I've only got 30 then your partner very lovingly will say I've got 70 to give to the relationship
then I've got 70 to give to you I'll give a little more while you've got less and vice
versa back and forth.
(19:39):
When you have that kind of mutually respectful openly communicative you can say that without
feeling worry, anxiety, guilt, shame that's a healthy relationship.
If you feel any of what I've described you're in an unhealthy relationship and that's
when it really takes counselling and if you go into a counselling session with a narcissist
(20:05):
and you start to see elements of gas lighting, blaming you because most narcissists can't
take any kind of personal responsibility or they're shifting the story or love bombing
the therapist as in trying to be super charming and shifting the dynamic and you kind of like
(20:26):
who is this person in this counselling session?
I don't know this person then you know you're dealing with a narcissist and someone who's
not bringing their authentic self into the room and it's going to be very difficult to
create something healthy with someone who's not being authentic with you if you don't recognise
them, run, it's time to call it, call it for what it is and that's very difficult for many
(20:52):
women to do and many women who've left a narcissist will say they waited way, way, way
too long because the tactics are very compelling.
Their whole design is to keep you with them that's so it's very difficult to leave.
One of the reasons that you know that I got in touch with you was because I absolutely
loved one of the responses that you gave on the Mamamia site on The Divorce Diaries.
(21:15):
It was to a woman who loved her husband but felt that they were no longer in love with
each other and they sort of had that empty feeling and she wanted to know should she just
suck it up and stick it out but you suggested counselling but not of the ordinary type of
counselling. This was counselling to potentially transition a split which I just thought was
(21:38):
fantastic. I'd never heard of it before. So can you elaborate on how beneficial that type
of counselling can be?
Sure and I think this is a new area of counselling that people don't realise is out there for you.
I think it was laughed about with the whole Gwyneth Paltrow and Chris Martin conscious un-coupling
(21:59):
but that's really what it means if you're looking at parting ways and it's in a situation
like that where you can just tell the relationship is come to it's used by date. It's not serving
each of you the way you are now as people needing to be loved if you're not happy just
(22:21):
in this sort of empty companionate relationship and one or both of you want something more.
There hasn't been a great big dramatic betrayal ending that has that fiery anger to it.
A couple therapists will often talk about a pendulum when they're dealing with clients
and they'll go oh this is a very passionate couple. Their pendulum swings from hot lustful
(22:48):
passion on the one hand and then they'll swing right the way over to anger and betrayal
and hate and that's really how you can get couples who've experienced say cheating for example
to come back to getting over it and being together because they're a passion you've got
energy and emotion and care and investment emotional investment to work with.
(23:11):
The apathetic couples where they're done more than lost their mojo they've lost all kind
of positive regard for each other outside of that sort of friend zone they're just apathetic
there in the middle and their pendulum barely swings they're in the sexless marriage their
needs aren't being met they've long lost they've maybe tried counselling to stay together
(23:34):
over and over before they bargained to stay together until the kids were older and out and
they question now why are we in this together?
So there's lots of reasons one would go to a counsellor to try to stay together because
that's what they just one or both of them in a determined that's what they really want
but there are a lot of couples that need help transitioning to separating they need
(24:01):
to come to the realisation to feel validated that that's an okay place to be that this relationship
has served its purpose and given each other a great amount of joy and freedom and all
of things relationships can bring you but then if you get to a point where it no longer
(24:24):
serves that original purpose and you haven't found new purpose together as parents or business
partners or whatever that other people stay together for then having someone counsel
you through how to be your better self when you're splitting as opposed to the worst version
of yourself because we tend to gravitate towards what feels good and then we avoid things
(24:46):
that feel bad so when you're going through a split and you're not wanting to hurt them
or you're not wanting to sit with your discomfort and you're having to have the conversations
with your friends and family that you're divorcing and this some people will feel I know I
did a huge feelings of failure that I didn't do it I didn't do what we're supposed to
(25:07):
do which is get married and then stay together and make it work so there's all there's
all kinds of reasons why people don't bring their best selves to a split there's all these
negative feelings internally that's when resentments that they've been feeling come out
or just even going through the physical split of who's going to live where and who's
(25:29):
going to have the dog and who you know do we sell and split or do all those practical
decisions to be coached through how you can have good regard for each other through
that process and after that process without losing the memory and sight of there was something
you loved that person in the beginning you shared a lot with that person and that bond
(25:53):
is part of your story part even if you don't ever share another story let's say you don't
have kids and you've got nothing you're never going to see them as the shared grandchildren
or anything again you still have in your life experience stories and memories of intimacy
deep intimacy with that person that may not be sexual it may be you know the comforting
that comes from someone knowing you really really well and so being able to have that positive
(26:18):
experience in splits is ultimately what will heal you faster to enable you to move on with
your life whether that's another relationship or not and have a better experience rather
than a worse experience. Divorce coaches also do this not just counsellors so divorce coaches
(26:39):
we often think of divorce coaches as someone who's you know sort of on side with your lawyer
and is going to be aggressive and assertive and and fight for you in your corner but a divorce
coach doesn't necessarily do that it's not just a financial coach it's someone who's
wanting to get you through an extremely tumultuous experience out on the other side with you
(27:02):
being the best version of yourself and if you have to have an ongoing relationship of any
kind with your ex if that can be better rather than worse let's opt for that how do we get
to that? Well Dr Morrissey that is where we leave the conversation today thank you so much
for today's chat and we will continue next week on Step Into Me - thank you. My pleasure
(27:24):
thank you so much. And thank you for joining us for part one of the conversation. Next week,
we'll be diving even deeper talking about how to separate the right way. Do people ever
regret getting divorced? Should we step in if someone we care about is in a troubled relationship?
And is it better to be single and happy or married and depressed? What are your thoughts? Let
(27:50):
us know. You can email info@stepintomepodcast.com Well, you'll find the links to Dr Morrissey's
Divorce Diaries column, her books, and other helpful resources in the show notes today and if you
don't want to miss part two, do be sure to follow or subscribe. I'm Belinda Lee and this is Step Into
Me - helping you find the courage to be true to yourself
(28:13):
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