June 20, 2025 • 46 mins
In this episode of "Stories and Stanza," the host, Abhra discusses the origins and impact of imposter syndrome with guest Manicaa, a self-development coach and mind and body practitioner. They explore how acknowledging and embracing failures can lead to significant personal growth. The discussion delves into the importance of self-awareness, emotional intelligence, and the need for a balanced life. They also touch on the difference between coaching and therapy, and strategies like mindfulness and journaling to address imposter syndrome. The conversation highlights the unique challenges faced by diverse communities and emphasizes the power of authentic living.
Connect with Manikaa here:
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Episode Transcript
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Abhra (00:07):
Why I call this podcast series fail with Me.
That's because I had a couple ofdifficult years and when I came
out of it, I felt that there is aneed to talk about our failures.
Manikaa (00:22):
Embrace failure, and I think it's really important.
And in previous roles that I'vehad, there's been a mentality to
fail fast because I think we learnquite a lot from failure and I
think we can grow quite, quite alot and quite quickly from failure.
Failing is, yes, it's seen as positive andit's something that I, personally embrace.
And it's something that I, as a coachin an indirect way, try and support
(00:46):
other people to embrace failure.
'cause it's, part andparcel of life, isn't it?
When we want to achieve greatthings, but internally we're
fighting with ourselves to get there.
Chances are that's, somesort of imposter syndrome.
I think it's really important to have somesort of balance in life and to flow with
life and not to pull ourselves up by thecollar and drag ourselves through life.
Abhra (01:16):
Hi Monica, welcome to Stories and Stanza.
How are you doing today?
Manikaa (01:21):
Yeah, I'm doing really well.
Excited to be here.
Abhra (01:24):
Thank you for joining me on this episode.
And it is nice to meet you.
And we are going to talk about impostersyndrome, which is a very important and.
A critical topic compared towhere I want this podcast to go.
(01:46):
Be before we get started into ourdiscussion, would you like to give a
brief introduction for our audience today?
Manikaa (01:54):
Yeah, sure.
Yeah.
So I'm Manikaa, I'm aself-development coach and I'm
a mind and body practitioner.
So I work with diverse communitiesbecause I myself take a lot of the
diverse tick box in terms of thefact that I'm a woman, of color.
I'm from a low socioeconomic backgroundand I've built myself up from there.
(02:15):
I'm also neurodivergent as well.
So I feel like the diversecommunities are my people and
that's the main focus for me.
But I suppose as a self-developmentcoach, I'm really focused on helping
diverse communities make meaningfulchange in their life and achieve certain
goals, whether that's professional I.
Or personal And yeah, helping them alongthe way and making sure that they are
(02:37):
living authentically and unapologetically.
That's really important to me.
So it's not just ticking boxes andgrabbing ourselves up by the collar
and pulling ourselves through life.
It's making sure that we're authenticand we live unapologetically and
yeah, making some meaningful change.
For those communities.
So that's me and that's what I do.
Abhra (02:57):
That's wonderful.
And I love that.
In this podcast I get to meetpeople from, such a wide background
and then they bring in their.
Thinking they're bringing theirperspective into some problems that we
(03:18):
are all trying to unpick in our own ways.
And I really love that about this podcastthat it has given me, the opportunity
to think beyond, where I can think.
So it has given me that widersort of platform to discuss
(03:38):
and unpack a lot of things.
So today we will talkabout imposter syndrome.
And I have done some episodeson this podcast before.
If anyone is interested, theycan check out the past ones.
We'll be linked here.
But before we get into today'sdiscussion, I just wanted to bring up.
(04:00):
Why I call this podcastseries fail with Me.
That's because I had a difficultcouple of years and when I came
out of it, I felt that there is aneed to talk about our failures.
There is a need to unpack failures andshed some light into it and understand
(04:20):
what it really is as opposed to justlabeling it at failure and letting that
affect us and the imposter syndrome.
Is one of those thingsthat was there in my box.
So, I am a podcaster now, butat some stage I was really
afraid of public speaking.
And then when I overcame that, then Ifound that there was this fear, related to
(04:46):
presentations and, talking about somethingin, in different types of forums.
But I was carrying.
Some kind of guilt and fearwithin me, and it has taken me a
very long time to overcome that.
So it's very important.
So just wanted to say that infawith me, what we are labeling as
(05:10):
failure might not be real failures.
There can be a lot of stories under that.
So the first thing I would like to askyou as you are a coach, so how does
that idea of fail with me sit with you?
Manikaa (05:25):
Yeah, I think it's really interesting and I
think for me personally, I.
Embrace failure, and Ithink it's really important.
And in previous roles that I'vehad, there's been a mentality to
fail fast because I think we learnquite a lot from failure and I
think we can grow quite, quite alot and quite quickly from failure.
So I think for me personally, I see as.
(05:47):
Something that happens, butit doesn't define who we are.
And also there's a lot of lessonsthat we can get from it, and
there's a path that we can drawfrom the experiences that we've had.
So for me.
Failing is, yes, it's seen as positive andit's something that I, personally embrace.
And it's something that I, as a coachin an indirect way, try and support
(06:08):
other people to embrace failure.
'cause it's, part andparcel of life, isn't it?
If, you're doing something outta yourcomfort zone, there's going to be a
chance that failure is, going to be there.
But it doesn't define that personand it doesn't define their ability.
Abhra (06:24):
That's very well said.
Thank you for sharing your views andof course you're doing a great work,
as a coach because you are guidingpeople who are finding that challenge,
that's a fantastic jobtowards the society, I feel.
So let's get into today's topic ofdiscussion and for our audience.
(06:50):
Could you, I. Briefly explain what thesymptom is and then we will get to more
roots of it more strategies on that.
Manikaa (07:00):
Yeah, sure.
Yeah, so I think imposter syndrome, sothere's still a lot of ongoing research
from what I can see on imposter syndrome.
And I think if people are watching this ina year's time or two years, time studies
might have evolved, but for now, the wayimposter syndrome is defined as it's.
It's a syndrome that targetshigh achieving people.
So high achieving people often suffer fromimposter syndrome, and it's where they
(07:23):
attribute their success and the resultsthat they have driven they attribute
it to external factors, so they don'tbelieve it's something within them.
They'll.
Maybe for example, put it towardstheir faith and say, well, I prayed
a lot this week and therefore I didreally well in that presentation.
Or they might say, because I gotsupport and some insight from my
(07:44):
colleague, I now did really well.
Or I met this person and thisopportunity presented itself to
me and that's why I am where I am.
Like they don't.
See the, superpower thatthey have within themselves.
And I think it's really importantto stress that it's high achieving
people that this syndrome impacts.
And I, suppose that'simportant to say because.
(08:06):
You can tell someone that has impostersyndrome that they're high achieving, but
they're not going to believe it, right?
Because everything's external.
It's not within them, but it's reallyimportant whether they like it or not,
to know that it's high achieving people.
It's people that do well in life thatsuffer from this syndrome, unfortunately.
Abhra (08:25):
That's very interesting how you brought up that it's, something
that we observe in high achievingpeople and I was just thinking
that could people have impostersyndrome and then not be aware of it?
Manikaa (08:43):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
The way that I see impostersyndrome is I feel like it hides
in plain sight, so I think.
I think as a society we know what impostersyndrome is, so you can easily get the
definition of it, but the way that it'salways been communicated to me is that
you feel like an imposter and you feellike you don't belong in that space.
(09:05):
I. But I don't know if people sitthere and feel like they don't, I
don't know if it's daring them in theface that, oh, I don't belong here.
I think it hides in plain sight andit's little comments that they make
to themselves and little feelingsthat they feel in certain situations
that maybe gives them a sense of lack.
So for example, if you're in a meeting.
(09:27):
And a manager asks the group aquestion and then the person to
the right of you takes up spaceand they answer that question.
They articulate themselves really well.
The person that's suffering fromimposter syndrome, they won't say,
oh, I'm in an imposter in this room.
What they'll think is, oh,why didn't I think of that?
(09:47):
Or, why aren't I talking?
Why aren't I using my voice?
And it's this sense oflack and it sense of.
People are doing better than me and I'mnot doing the best that I could be doing.
And I think it's the little words andthe sentences that we tell ourselves
that comes from a place of lack.
And there's certain behaviors as wellthat I've noticed and I've, put these
(10:09):
personas together as well to reallyhumanize the behaviors because I think
there's a lot of behaviors that peoplerepeat on a daily basis that they might
just think is a maybe a problem with them.
Or it could be anxiety, it couldbe depression, it could be this,
that, whatever else, but they'renot maybe thinking that are these
behaviors on a day-to-day basis?
(10:30):
Imposter syndrome?
Am I actually sufferingfrom imposter syndrome?
I'm not sure.
If as a society we can say this behaviorthat I experience on a daily basis.
Imposter syndrome.
I think we might think actually thisbehavior is because I'm not good enough.
This behavior is because I'm nottrained enough or I don't know enough.
(10:50):
I, think it's that sense of lack whichis disguised as imposter syndrome.
Abhra (10:57):
And you, touched upon it briefly as a coach, how do you
see, this as different to anxiety?
Or is it like a subsetof anxiety you would say?
Speaker (11:10):
Yeah, I think it's it's a combination.
So I think people suffer from anxiety.
There's other mental healthconditions, but I think imposter
syndrome definitely sits within that.
So I think it's, really difficult to, Isuppose, separate each of the conditions.
'cause I think if you're sufferingfrom imposter syndrome, then
you'll get a lot of anxiety.
(11:31):
Your mood might be quite low.
There could be panic attacksand things like that form.
But it's understanding,is it purely anxiety?
Is it purely panic attacks or is somethingelse going on that, that is missing?
And I think imposter syndrome is one ofthose things that just sits there in,
in the dark that is wreaking havoc onpeople's lives, but they're just not
(11:53):
bringing it out to the surface becausethey might not, they might just go to
anxiety straight away, or they mightjust go to low mood straight away.
They might not go to.
Imposter syndrome.
I don't think, if that is completelyout there in the open right now.
Abhra (12:11):
That's true.
And you mentioned somethingwhen we started talking that it
affects high achieving people.
Now, in this podcast series emotionalintelligence is a topic that I.
I love to discuss and ithas come up during many,
(12:32):
discussions with a lot of guests.
So, in a way when we are saying thathigh achieving people they face this
imposter syndrome quite a lot, thatin a way says that high iq, do not sit
with a good eq, so, but these two thingsare very different, like emotional
(13:00):
quotient and intelligence quotient.
But often when people are, peoplehave high iq, they do not have that
equal emotional awareness counterpart.
Does that kind of reflect what youwere saying initially in a way?
Manikaa (13:21):
Yeah, I think so.
Definitely.
And I suppose maybe.
As a culture as well, especially inlike the workplace and things like that.
It's very much about high iq.
It's very much about performing toa certain level, being seen as a
certain authority in a certain subject.
Like you have your subject matterexperts and things like that.
(13:42):
And I don't know if the softer skills.
Are praised enough and the softer skillsthen come from emotional intelligence.
So do you know how to getthe best outta people?
Do you know how to see talent andembrace talent and nurture talent?
Do you know when to push someoneand when not to push someone?
(14:04):
I think those are not, thoseattributes are not phrased or taken
as seriously as getting the work andthe job done to a high standard and.
There seems to be a lot of stress aswell and chaos in, in previous roles
that I've had where we have to justget to this target no matter what, and
it doesn't matter really who we upset.
(14:25):
As long as we get our point across andwe get to the target, that's the main
objective and I think maybe, yeah.
Then IQ and EQ.
It doesn't really sit at the same level.
I think one's more importantthan the other, which then does
attribute to imposter syndrome.
'cause I, from the research that Ilooked at environments where it's
(14:46):
very much focused on the outcome.
It breeds imposter syndrome.
So if companies or households are focusedon, say their children or their colleagues
just getting to that outcome, and if theydon't get to the outcome, they failed.
And if they get to the outcome, they'vedone a really good job and they get
praised those environments, breed impostersyndrome, because it doesn't really matter
(15:10):
how the person has got there, how mucheffort they've put into getting there.
All that matters is, you've eitherhit the, target or you haven't.
And then yeah, that kind of createsthat imposter syndrome as well,
which I think is the EQ in the iq.
EQ is not important, but IQ probably is.
Abhra (15:28):
I ask that because from my experience I've, seen people with
really good subject matter expertise.
They come into a conversation and thenyou can tell that they are not taking
the feedbacks well or they're not, reallyholding up to their presentation or
their credibility, and I've seen more,
(15:53):
high IQ people falter at thatstage, which is why I brought it up.
And in a way it links to.
What you are saying, and you mentionedto me earlier as well, and in as a
part of this conversation as to youlooked at some research and in, this
particular domain would you like toshare anything as to where do you
(16:18):
think, imposter syndrome affects us inwhich domain or in which field of work?
And anything like that?
Manikaa (16:29):
Yeah, sure.
So.
From the research that I've looked at,and again, it's all ongoing and there'll
be a lot more coming out, but fromwhat I can see right now, it definitely
impacts people in like the medical field.
I think there's a lot of reports thatI can see in the medical field, and I
feel like that makes sense because ifyou are, say a surgeon, you've either
saved someone's life or you haven't.
(16:50):
You've either helped them with theirhealth or you haven't, and again,
it's that you've hit the objective.
Or you failed mentality rather thanhow much effort, determination that
surgeon has had to complete their job.
It's it that is irrelevant.
So I feel like the, from a lot of theresearch that I've read, medical fields
have a lot of yeah, have a lot of studies,have a lot of participants that they're
(17:14):
measuring performance of in, terms ofwhether imposter syndrome is there or not.
Also as well, it is diverse communities,so it seems like there's a lot of
research around youth that are fromlow socioeconomic backgrounds, that are
minorities as well, that are probablygoing into the workplace and not being
around people that look like them,speak like them, carry themselves,
(17:36):
present themselves in the same way.
I feel like those people thenfeel like they may not belong
and might have to change.
The way that they are to thenbelong in this environment.
So there's a lot of studies aroundminorities and yeah, diverse
communities and, I think thoseare the two main focus points for
the research that I've looked at.
(17:57):
But in a way as well, it doesn'treally discriminate, so it could
affect anyone and everyone.
It's just that thosegroups are at higher risk.
But anyone that's been in an environmentwhere, again, it's just the objective,
so you're either hitting the objectiveor not suffering from imposter syndrome.
Also those that have come from householdsor work in environments where there's
(18:20):
extreme praise on one side, but thenthere's extreme criticism on the other.
So you are praised really well fordoing a great job here, but then you
are criticized quite heavily for notdoing a great job in the other areas.
And I think that kind of environmentalso breeds imposter syndrome.
And I see that come up quite alot in books that I've read and
(18:41):
research that I've looked at.
Abhra (18:44):
I love that we are putting a socioeconomic perspective into
the mix of understanding this.
That's so very important because welook at psychology and we just see
some theories, but they are not, I.
Isolated.
They are, yeah.
Basically the effect of some other, causeif we don't look at them or if we don't
(19:07):
understand them, then we are not gettingto the root bottom of it, let's say.
So I Yeah, love that.
How you, are, sharing these researchand this thinking that it's, not at,
mental capacity level, butthis is rooted much deeper.
(19:30):
So my, I really like that, in, termsof understanding imposter syndrome.
So where do you think it comes from?
Where, does it originate?
As in, within us?
Where do you think that comes up?
As in, if we need to understand our.
(19:50):
Imposter syndrome and to be able tocome out of it, why, where should
we look at and what would that,
healing pathway look like from there?
I mean I'm sure that the theorythat explains the cause would
also give us an opportunity tounderstand how to overcome that.
Manikaa (20:11):
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
I think the first place reallyis understanding how and why.
So firstly.
How does imposter syndromeaffect us on a day-to-day basis?
And why does it do that?
So, for example, some of the personasthat I've put together, a person that is
experiencing imposter syndrome, they couldbe the sort of person that puts their
(20:33):
hand up for challenging tasks at work.
They could want all the meatytasks, all the big projects.
They may want to come across like theyneed to prove themselves to others,
and they may come across like they'rereally passionate about what they do.
But actually inside the minute they'vetaken on that project or that task,
there's this internal battle where theymay feel like, oh, now that I'm on this
(20:57):
project and I'm leading this, I'm actuallygoing to be like, everyone's gonna see if
I fail or people are gonna judge me if Ican't get this from A to B, or if I can't
get people to work together I've failed.
And there's this automaticinternal negative conflict.
And I think if you can.
Look at the way that you performat work or the way that you
(21:19):
perform in your personal life.
And you can maybe start looking atwhere there's an internal battle.
So are you the sort of person that isputting your hand up to help others
and to do all these great things, butthen actually immediately are you then.
Questioning it.
Is there a lot of shame there?
Are there negative feelings there?
Is there any kind of worry?
(21:40):
And I think if you are in a place whereeverything looks great on the outside
and you seem to be doing all these greatthings and people are coming to you and
saying, you're doing an amazing job.
You're this great person, but insideyou're not feeling it, chances are then
you are experiencing imposter syndrome.
So I would firstly lookat that internal battle.
Is that present in your life?
(22:01):
Because there are a lot of highachieving people that are confident
in what they do, and they don'thave that internal battle as much.
But if you're the sort of person thatis always in conflict with yourself,
I would start there and figureout, well, what is that conflict?
Where does it come from?
Where does it show up?
And really go down into the detail.
How often does this show up in my life?
What triggers it?
(22:22):
And I think from looking at that, youcan then start figuring out, well, why?
Why do I feel like this?
Where did this come from?
Was it, and it can be as simpleas a look, so you could just be
speaking in front of loads of people.
You might look at a certain person,they're daydreaming, but they seem
to be giving you a dirty look.
And all of a sudden then you think,oh my God, I'm not doing a good.
(22:44):
Job, and I'm terrible at this.
And that's where the impostersyndrome has come from.
It's just a simple, small expressionthat you've taken in the wrong way,
or it could be something reallysignificant that's happened in your
life, but it's, really difficult to makechange if we don't have awareness of.
What's going on with us and where it'scome from, and people don't need to
(23:06):
traumatize themselves and go throughall the trauma again of that scenario.
But it's important toacknowledge the root cause of it.
And once you know that, you can startcreating a bit of separateness so you
can say, okay, it was a random personthat seemed to give me a dirty luck
in the audience when I was presenting.
Does, what does that mean to me now?
(23:28):
Is that still important in my life now?
Do I care as much now?
And you can separate yourself from whereit originated from, and then you can
start your path to healing as well, andstarting to, change that, thought process
and that, that train of thought whenit comes up again in other scenarios.
Abhra (23:46):
That's very true.
I was listening to the previous episodethat I recorded on imposter syndrome, and
it was interesting as to, what are some ofthe suggestions that we looked at, okay?
And,
(24:08):
one of the areas that came up asa part of the conversation was,
to give ourselves some kind of, sense ofsecurity and calmness through breathing
exercises or through, physical sort of,
(24:31):
ness that you stand ground andyou hold your ground and build,
draw your confidence from there.
And, to me that felt like it's more ofa. Tactical fix to a bigger problem.
Personally, I would think thatif you really need to come out of
(24:52):
imposter syndrome, you first ofall need to be aware of it, and you
need to be aware of who you are.
So, as a coach, how do you seethis, like the tactical fixes as
well as the work someone has to doon themselves to come out of it?
Manikaa (25:09):
Yeah, I think the two are very important.
Definitely.
So, as you mentioned, you need to knowwhy and how and where it's come from.
So the original kind of storythat you've told yourself that's
had an impact and then you needto see where it's showing up.
I think what happens isthere's an emotional response.
I think that's probably where thebreath work has come into it, because
(25:31):
when we are suffering from impostersyndrome, when we're in that meeting,
for example our heart can be racing.
We can start sweating.
Our voice starts shaking.
There's a physical response to how wefeel based on the fact that we don't think
we're doing good enough in that situation.
So I think the breath workcan really help because.
(25:51):
The way that the brain works isthat if you are having an emotional
response to something, you can'tthen make rational decisions.
It's just not the way that it works.
We have an emotional side of ourbrain that firstly needs to calm down.
So that's where the tacticalthings can come into place.
Figuring making sure that you'rebreathing correctly, figuring out
what kind of breath work works foryou, meditation, that kind of thing,
(26:14):
to really figure out how you can.
Arm your brain down, and thenyou, once your brain is calm, you
can then start making decisions.
So you're using the CEO thinking partof your brain, which is a neocortex,
which then comes in and startsmaking rational decisions for you.
But it can't do that if youare emotionally distressed.
So you, that's wherethe tactical comes in.
(26:35):
I think where the thinking brain comes inis where then you're starting to go into
the inner work, so you can work with likea therapist or a coach like myself, and
you can start looking at the inner work.
So you can start looking at.
What is getting in your way?
What are the blocks thatyou're currently experiencing?
Where is this coming from?
And that, that in itselftakes a lot of work, right?
(26:56):
To really figure out where impostersyndrome is showing up in your
life and how it's impacting youand the results of it can be quite
difficult to acknowledge that I.
Because I've suffered from impostersyndrome, I've struggled to voice my
opinions or because I've struggledfrom imposter syndrome, I've
always remained in the shadows.
I've never really projected my voiceand taken up space, and it can be really
(27:19):
like distressing to acknowledge the,impacts that imposter syndrome has had.
That takes a lot of work initself and a lot of inner work
to really hold someone's hand.
Take them through the reality of herimposter syndrome or other, impacts
as well with mental health andthings like that can have on them.
But then it's then using the tacticalthings like the breath work to figure
(27:41):
out how to calm the person down in themoment so they can think logically.
But then it's also training the brain ina certain way and it's making a decision.
So now I know where it comes from.
Now I know how it impacts me,and now I know the results of it.
What decision do I nowwant to make in my life?
Do I want to continue on doingthe same thing or do I want
(28:02):
to make meaningful change?
And I. Doing that inner work and trainingthe brain in a small, consistent way,
and the term is called neuroplasticity.
So scientists have actually come upwith this term called neuroplasticity
that talks about how the, brainis always evolving and learning.
So for example, if you have anaccident and you break a bone.
(28:23):
Your brain will work with your body tomend your bones and to get you walking
again, or get you moving your armsagain, it's always learning and evolving.
So once the acknowledgement ofwhat's going on has happened through
coaching or therapy or self-help bookspeople can also support themselves
if, that's the best option for them.
Then it's looking at, well, I knowmy brain can evolve and change.
(28:46):
What decision do I now want to makeonce I've done this work and I've
acknowledged where it comes from.
And then it's leading a person tomake small, consistent change changes
in their life towards that overallgoal, which could be driving at work
and not feeling like an imposter.
Or it could be getting a progression orprogression in, in, in a certain role
or whatever it is, but it's then makingsmall, consistent, sustainable changes.
(29:10):
Knowing that the brain willlearn, evolve, and adapt.
Abhra (29:15):
Neuroplasticity is, I said a lot there.
Yeah.
No, you said a lot ofimportant things there.
And neuroplasticity is definitely oneof the most wonderful, subjects of
modern neuroscience that I really love.
And remember we were, I was tellingthis to you earlier when we were
preparing for this episode that.
(29:37):
There, there is this, of course,this, tactical component of of
this, which is the breath work.
And then tricking your brain tothink that audience is not ready.
And there are all these sortof short term exercises.
And then there is the longterm aspects of it, right?
(29:57):
And then.
I want to hear a littlebit more from you as to,
you, are a coach.
So where, do you think,
the, imposter syndrome begins?
What I mean to say is that it definitelydoesn't start when a person is at.
(30:20):
Maybe thirties or forties, right?
It probably surfaced, longbefore where that, right.
So, what, is it that that are the signsthat you can identify that this, is
affecting you or this is affecting someoneyou know, and then you can guide them
(30:43):
or you can set them on the right path.
Manikaa (30:47):
Yeah, definitely.
So I think firstly, I reckon it wouldstart from, it could start from childhood.
It could start all the way backthere again, if you're from can't
speak, my voice is breaking.
Again, if you're from an environmentwhere extreme praise, extreme criticism,
chances are it started from childhoodor you've always been under pressure
to get really good results at school beseen in a certain way because the family
(31:11):
are seen in a certain way, and you haveto fit within that family structure.
No matter what's really going oninside, chances are then imposter
syndrome has started from school orfrom childhood or, your household.
Again, schools and the way thatthey conduct teaching students.
It's very much about passing orfailing, not really about why is a
(31:32):
child passing, why is a child failing?
What can we, learn from the childthat's, being really successful in
their grades and we can, help then trainthose that are not doing very well.
So I think even in school environments,it's very much about all or nothing.
So again, yeah, imposter syndromecan come from as early as.
When you were born to primary school,secondary school, university, and so on.
(31:57):
So it definitely, impacts people frommy own opinion and perspective way
before they've gone into the, workplace.
And I think as humans weare creatures of habit.
So based on like neuroscienceand, the research there, we.
It could be something very simplethat's happened to us that will then
lead to a reaction that then becomesa habit and imposter syndrome, for
(32:21):
example, in someone that's beensuffering from it since childhood.
They might be the sort of personthat neglects their self-care.
So that could be a signthat someone could see.
So when it comes to busy examperiods, when it comes to busy
projects at work, when it comesto a busy period in their life,
they're the sort of person that will.
Put everything into, thatbecause they're afraid to fail.
(32:44):
They're afraid to be seen as failing.
They're afraid to be exposed in that way.
So self-care is somethingthat they neglect.
They probably don't eat enough.
So hearing people, so I hearit all the time, oh I, can go
like a whole day without eating.
That could probably be someonesuffering from imposter syndrome.
The fact that you're not fuelingyour body and your body needs that
(33:06):
fuel to then work efficiently.
Why are you not doing that?
Is that because you feel like if Itake a break and eat, then I'm gonna
fail and not be able to achieve thispiece of work that I'm working towards?
I think people that.
Attribute their success to luck.
So if you're talking to someone and yousay, oh, you did a great job yesterday,
(33:27):
or, oh, you seem to be doing really well,and they say, oh well I, prayed a lot
and that's where I've got what I've got.
Or the opportunity just fell on my lap.
Or, just, it was just based on luck.
It's not me.
They just, they will not andcannot see how they've attributed.
To that success.
(33:47):
They will not look at themselves and lookat what superpowers they have, because
opportunities fall on anyone's lap.
But it takes a certain type ofperson to see the opportunity and
to maximize the opportunity, andnot everyone can and will do that.
So a high achieving person is the sortof person that will see something and
they will take it to the next level.
(34:08):
But they just say, well it just fell on mylap and I did what anyone else would do.
So I. Sharing that type of languageand or seeing a person neglect
themselves or seeing a person go aday without eating those types of
signs is probably where then theyhaven't got a balance in their life.
(34:29):
And there's this all and allnothing mentality, which could then
potentially mean that there's somesort of imposter syndrome there.
Abhra (34:38):
Very well thought.
Answer to that.
Thank you.
You mentioned that when someonehas understood that you know they
are affected by the syndrome,then they can seek out help.
I wanna hear from you, what'syour perspective that when should
someone approach a coach and whenshould someone look for therapy?
(35:05):
Do?
Is there a line that wecan draw and we can advise?
Anyone listening to this episode?
Manikaa (35:12):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
I think therapy and coaching, it doesfeel very similar because you're in a
one-to-one environment with a person and.
There is a lot of unpacking as well withboth coaches and therapists, but I think
where it's best to speak to a therapistis where you feel like you need a bit
more time to really unpack and understandwhat's been going on in your life and what
(35:37):
and, making sense of, what's going on.
So you might be in environments or youmight be going from one environment
to the next, where it's all.
Leading to this imposter syndromefeeling, or this negative feeling,
and you feel like you're, constantlyin a battle within yourself and
you just need to make sense of it.
And I think therapy's really good athelping you make sense of what's going on,
(36:00):
but therapy doesn't work towards a goal.
So yes.
Okay.
Indirectly, the goal would be to havebetter mental health and to have clarity
and to see things a bit more clearer.
There isn't specifically a goal.
I think where you would need acoach is where you've done a bit
of unpacking so you understandwhat's going on in your life.
You might have already gone totherapy and done a bit of unpacking
(36:22):
there, but now you really needto focus on getting out of here.
So I suffer from imposter syndrome.
It's had an impact in my life.
I've got my head around it.
I've felt my feelings and I've spokento someone, but now I really need to.
I need to move on.
I need to thrive.
I need to get outta this, feelingand this mindset that I've got, and I
(36:44):
wanna work towards getting outta that.
And I think that's where a coachcomes in because there's concrete
steps in helping you move from A toB and it's, measured results as well.
And it's not so much about the unpacking,it's more about unpacking so that we can
move and unblock to get to that goal.
And it's very much, yeah,driving in a certain direction.
Abhra (37:06):
I heard something very interesting in one of the episodes.
I just can't remember which one,that how we behave to the external
world is based on how we feel andhow we feel is based on how we think.
So if it is possible to change our.
Thinking, then we will feel differentlyand we will behave differently.
(37:31):
And I really love that comparison and whatwe are talking about on imposter syndrome.
So at the heart of it, it'sthe lack of self-awareness.
So if we can truly build.
Self-awareness, then itcan possibly, sort of,
(37:55):
show us that light atthe end of the tunnel.
And I'm sure as a coach you mightexperience that quite a lot more.
You, talk to people on a daily basis.
Is there, something you would like toshare with our audience today that how
we can, set a achievable target to buildour self-awareness and what are the
(38:20):
positive outcomes we can get from there?
Manikaa (38:24):
Yeah.
So was it to build the self-awarenesswhat we could do to start doing that?
Yeah, so
Abhra (38:29):
because I'm, just going to the root of imposter syndrome.
So we, talked about the factors,we talked about different layers,
and I am trying to address whatcould be troubling us at the core.
And that yeah.
Would potentially be, emotional awareness,self awareness and things like that.
(38:51):
And you are someone who works in thatdomain, so what, are the things you'd
like to share with our audience?
Manikaa (39:00):
Yeah.
I think for me personally, what Isee a lot is this internal battle.
And I think that we probably don'tacknowledge it enough and there's
a lot of shame around it as well.
So.
When we want to achieve greatthings, but internally we're
fighting with ourselves to get there.
Chances are that's, somesort of imposter syndrome.
(39:24):
And I feel like imposter syndrome ison a spectrum, so it presents very
differently based on each person.
But I think for me, when the mindand the heart are not aligned and
there's an internal conflict there,it's then making a note of that
and then figuring out where that.
Plays out in a person's life.
So journaling is really good to do.
(39:45):
Keeping a note of, okay,there's an internal battle.
Every time I speak to this person ormy manager makes me feel this way.
Like I want to achieveall these great things.
I'm putting my hand up toachieve all these great things.
But when I speak to my manager,I feel this sense of, I.
My mind and my heart not aligning.
And I think making a note of exactlywhere it's showing up in your life and
(40:06):
how often it's showing up in your life.
And I do this a lotwith my clients as well.
It sometimes will come up with a tally.
So we'll look at, well, how oftendid you experience this then?
Because I think a lot of peopledon't realize how often they're
having these negative experiences.
We, I think there was a stat somewherearound, we have like 90,000 thoughts
a day or something like that,and 80,000 of them are negative.
(40:28):
And we just mindlessly and there's,this thing called automatic negative
thoughts as well, and where we're justmindlessly having these negative thoughts
and these neg negative experiences.
Without even realizing it.
So the first step is understandingand catching exactly when
these negative experiences arehappening, and are they realistic?
Are they realistic, negative thoughtsthat you're having, or is it just
(40:52):
something that your brain is making up?
Because that's the waythat the brain works.
It's negativity bias.
So is it just.
Saying nasty things to you forthe sake of saying nasty things
because of 80,000 negative thoughtsin a day that we are having.
So not all of it can possibly be true.
So I feel like the first point isreally understanding and going into
(41:12):
the level of work, of understandingwhere these thoughts are coming
from, how often they're coming,what we're saying to ourselves,
but then what's the result of that?
And I think sometimes the result of thatin a session can be quite mind blowing.
So for example, I'll say to someone.
Because you're having this negativethought, it's impacting you in X, Y,
(41:33):
Z. And then they start putting thepieces of the puzzle together to say,
okay, because I think I'm not goodenough, I'm not progressing at work,
or because I think I'm not good enough.
I'm not speaking out in a meeting orbecause I think I'm not good enough.
I'm not building good relationships.
And that realization of, ohmy God, I've limited myself.
Because of these negative thoughts, itcan be quite powerful in a session because
(41:57):
then the penny drops of, wow, I'm limitingmyself because of the way that I think.
And then it's making a decision,okay, you are having these thoughts.
These are the impacts, but what do wewant to do to achieve something better?
How do we want to train the brainto start thinking about something
in a more of a positive light?
(42:18):
So what I try and doin sessions as well is.
Challenge the negative thoughts.
So we'll actively spend even,sometimes it takes an hour, really
going into the detail of how do wechallenge this negative thought?
So how do we find evidencefor where you have actually.
Done this in the correct way.
So for example, a client couldsay, well, I've got really good
(42:41):
feedback from work, or people tellme I'm great at this, or I've got
top marks or top top qualificationsfor this certain certificate that
I had to do, or whatever else.
So we actually start looking at evidencethat then conflicts with the negative
thought and then what we start, whatI start trying to get them to do.
(43:01):
Is looking at how they can then tellthat story to themselves in that moment.
So when this negative thought comes up,now we know what it is and we know what
you're saying to yourself straight away.
How can you then start?
Providing a brain with evidence of whythat negative thought is incorrect,
and they start building this pattern ofspeaking to themselves in a different way.
(43:22):
So instead of saying, why didn'tI think of that, or I'm not good
enough, they start saying, oh,actually I am good enough because I
got really good feedback last week.
Or I am good enough becauseI've got top, marks on this
certificate that I was doing.
So it's, then rewiring thebrain and talking to themselves
in a different way, but.
The only way that I would say youcan make really good progress is when
your heart and your mind are aligned.
(43:44):
When your heart is openand your mind are aligned.
And it's doing a lot of work to reallyget someone to open up their heart and
align it with what they're thinking.
So I think up until then, ifyou're always in conflict, the
change is really difficult.
You can try and trick yourself,but we need to find ways.
To align the brain and the hearts thatyou are, you're singing off the same
(44:05):
hymn sheet and your body is feelingthe way that you're thinking, and
it's about doing that work as well.
Abhra (44:13):
This is very well said as if you recall, I was trying to tell you
last week that all the preparations andeverything will only take you so far
unless you put in your inner work there.
You cannot truly come out of it.
You can possibly practice a lot and youcan, camouflage that fear with something
(44:36):
else, but if you do not address the.
Root then it'll continue to trouble you.
And thank you for explaining thatso well, and, for me, I think I have
gone into all the different areasthat I really wanted to explore.
Is there anything you would like to sharewith our audience that I didn't bring up?
Manikaa (45:02):
No I think we've pretty much covered quite a lot of it.
I think that the main importance really isto help people understand where imposter
syndrome comes from, who it impacts.
Signs that they might not be aware of.
So for example, when I said the personthat puts their hand up, so one of your
audience members is the sort of personthat always puts their hands up for
(45:23):
meaty projects, challenging roles, butthen there's this internal conflict.
They might not see thatas imposter syndrome.
And it's, looking at signs likethat, that I'd really wanna get
out there for people to look atimposter syndrome in a different way.
Like if you're the sort of person that.
Isn't taking care of yourself, doesn'tput importance to self care whilst
(45:45):
you're in busy phases in your life.
Is that a sense of imposter syndrome?
I think it's really important to have somesort of balance in life and to flow with
life and not to pull ourselves up by thecollar and drag ourselves through life.
And I think if you listenersare the sorts of people that.
Are experiencing this inner conflictand not taking care of themselves.
(46:05):
Maybe then there's an opportunity for themto start looking into imposter syndrome
a little bit more, finding out how itimpacts them, and yeah, starting to,
starting their journey with that innerwork to, make sure that their heart and
their, mind is aligned and that they canyeah, live authentically and, thrive.
Abhra (46:24):
Very beautifully wrapped up the session.
And thank you once again forjoining Stories in stanza and
for your beautiful thoughts.
Manikaa (46:34):
Thank you.
It's been a pleasure.
Been an honor to be here.
Thank you.
Why I call this podcast series fail with Me.
That's because I had a couple ofdifficult years and when I came
out of it, I felt that there is aneed to talk about our failures.
Manikaa (00:22):
Embrace failure, and I think it's really important.
And in previous roles that I'vehad, there's been a mentality to
fail fast because I think we learnquite a lot from failure and I
think we can grow quite, quite alot and quite quickly from failure.
Failing is, yes, it's seen as positive andit's something that I, personally embrace.
And it's something that I, as a coachin an indirect way, try and support
(00:46):
other people to embrace failure.
'cause it's, part andparcel of life, isn't it?
When we want to achieve greatthings, but internally we're
fighting with ourselves to get there.
Chances are that's, somesort of imposter syndrome.
I think it's really important to have somesort of balance in life and to flow with
life and not to pull ourselves up by thecollar and drag ourselves through life.
Abhra (01:16):
Hi Monica, welcome to Stories and Stanza.
How are you doing today?
Manikaa (01:21):
Yeah, I'm doing really well.
Excited to be here.
Abhra (01:24):
Thank you for joining me on this episode.
And it is nice to meet you.
And we are going to talk about impostersyndrome, which is a very important and.
A critical topic compared towhere I want this podcast to go.
(01:46):
Be before we get started into ourdiscussion, would you like to give a
brief introduction for our audience today?
Manikaa (01:54):
Yeah, sure.
Yeah.
So I'm Manikaa, I'm aself-development coach and I'm
a mind and body practitioner.
So I work with diverse communitiesbecause I myself take a lot of the
diverse tick box in terms of thefact that I'm a woman, of color.
I'm from a low socioeconomic backgroundand I've built myself up from there.
(02:15):
I'm also neurodivergent as well.
So I feel like the diversecommunities are my people and
that's the main focus for me.
But I suppose as a self-developmentcoach, I'm really focused on helping
diverse communities make meaningfulchange in their life and achieve certain
goals, whether that's professional I.
Or personal And yeah, helping them alongthe way and making sure that they are
(02:37):
living authentically and unapologetically.
That's really important to me.
So it's not just ticking boxes andgrabbing ourselves up by the collar
and pulling ourselves through life.
It's making sure that we're authenticand we live unapologetically and
yeah, making some meaningful change.
For those communities.
So that's me and that's what I do.
Abhra (02:57):
That's wonderful.
And I love that.
In this podcast I get to meetpeople from, such a wide background
and then they bring in their.
Thinking they're bringing theirperspective into some problems that we
(03:18):
are all trying to unpick in our own ways.
And I really love that about this podcastthat it has given me, the opportunity
to think beyond, where I can think.
So it has given me that widersort of platform to discuss
(03:38):
and unpack a lot of things.
So today we will talkabout imposter syndrome.
And I have done some episodeson this podcast before.
If anyone is interested, theycan check out the past ones.
We'll be linked here.
But before we get into today'sdiscussion, I just wanted to bring up.
(04:00):
Why I call this podcastseries fail with Me.
That's because I had a difficultcouple of years and when I came
out of it, I felt that there is aneed to talk about our failures.
There is a need to unpack failures andshed some light into it and understand
(04:20):
what it really is as opposed to justlabeling it at failure and letting that
affect us and the imposter syndrome.
Is one of those thingsthat was there in my box.
So, I am a podcaster now, butat some stage I was really
afraid of public speaking.
And then when I overcame that, then Ifound that there was this fear, related to
(04:46):
presentations and, talking about somethingin, in different types of forums.
But I was carrying.
Some kind of guilt and fearwithin me, and it has taken me a
very long time to overcome that.
So it's very important.
So just wanted to say that infawith me, what we are labeling as
(05:10):
failure might not be real failures.
There can be a lot of stories under that.
So the first thing I would like to askyou as you are a coach, so how does
that idea of fail with me sit with you?
Manikaa (05:25):
Yeah, I think it's really interesting and I
think for me personally, I.
Embrace failure, and Ithink it's really important.
And in previous roles that I'vehad, there's been a mentality to
fail fast because I think we learnquite a lot from failure and I
think we can grow quite, quite alot and quite quickly from failure.
So I think for me personally, I see as.
(05:47):
Something that happens, butit doesn't define who we are.
And also there's a lot of lessonsthat we can get from it, and
there's a path that we can drawfrom the experiences that we've had.
So for me.
Failing is, yes, it's seen as positive andit's something that I, personally embrace.
And it's something that I, as a coachin an indirect way, try and support
(06:08):
other people to embrace failure.
'cause it's, part andparcel of life, isn't it?
If, you're doing something outta yourcomfort zone, there's going to be a
chance that failure is, going to be there.
But it doesn't define that personand it doesn't define their ability.
Abhra (06:24):
That's very well said.
Thank you for sharing your views andof course you're doing a great work,
as a coach because you are guidingpeople who are finding that challenge,
that's a fantastic jobtowards the society, I feel.
So let's get into today's topic ofdiscussion and for our audience.
(06:50):
Could you, I. Briefly explain what thesymptom is and then we will get to more
roots of it more strategies on that.
Manikaa (07:00):
Yeah, sure.
Yeah, so I think imposter syndrome, sothere's still a lot of ongoing research
from what I can see on imposter syndrome.
And I think if people are watching this ina year's time or two years, time studies
might have evolved, but for now, the wayimposter syndrome is defined as it's.
It's a syndrome that targetshigh achieving people.
So high achieving people often suffer fromimposter syndrome, and it's where they
(07:23):
attribute their success and the resultsthat they have driven they attribute
it to external factors, so they don'tbelieve it's something within them.
They'll.
Maybe for example, put it towardstheir faith and say, well, I prayed
a lot this week and therefore I didreally well in that presentation.
Or they might say, because I gotsupport and some insight from my
(07:44):
colleague, I now did really well.
Or I met this person and thisopportunity presented itself to
me and that's why I am where I am.
Like they don't.
See the, superpower thatthey have within themselves.
And I think it's really importantto stress that it's high achieving
people that this syndrome impacts.
And I, suppose that'simportant to say because.
(08:06):
You can tell someone that has impostersyndrome that they're high achieving, but
they're not going to believe it, right?
Because everything's external.
It's not within them, but it's reallyimportant whether they like it or not,
to know that it's high achieving people.
It's people that do well in life thatsuffer from this syndrome, unfortunately.
Abhra (08:25):
That's very interesting how you brought up that it's, something
that we observe in high achievingpeople and I was just thinking
that could people have impostersyndrome and then not be aware of it?
Manikaa (08:43):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
The way that I see impostersyndrome is I feel like it hides
in plain sight, so I think.
I think as a society we know what impostersyndrome is, so you can easily get the
definition of it, but the way that it'salways been communicated to me is that
you feel like an imposter and you feellike you don't belong in that space.
(09:05):
I. But I don't know if people sitthere and feel like they don't, I
don't know if it's daring them in theface that, oh, I don't belong here.
I think it hides in plain sight andit's little comments that they make
to themselves and little feelingsthat they feel in certain situations
that maybe gives them a sense of lack.
So for example, if you're in a meeting.
(09:27):
And a manager asks the group aquestion and then the person to
the right of you takes up spaceand they answer that question.
They articulate themselves really well.
The person that's suffering fromimposter syndrome, they won't say,
oh, I'm in an imposter in this room.
What they'll think is, oh,why didn't I think of that?
(09:47):
Or, why aren't I talking?
Why aren't I using my voice?
And it's this sense oflack and it sense of.
People are doing better than me and I'mnot doing the best that I could be doing.
And I think it's the little words andthe sentences that we tell ourselves
that comes from a place of lack.
And there's certain behaviors as wellthat I've noticed and I've, put these
(10:09):
personas together as well to reallyhumanize the behaviors because I think
there's a lot of behaviors that peoplerepeat on a daily basis that they might
just think is a maybe a problem with them.
Or it could be anxiety, it couldbe depression, it could be this,
that, whatever else, but they'renot maybe thinking that are these
behaviors on a day-to-day basis?
(10:30):
Imposter syndrome?
Am I actually sufferingfrom imposter syndrome?
I'm not sure.
If as a society we can say this behaviorthat I experience on a daily basis.
Imposter syndrome.
I think we might think actually thisbehavior is because I'm not good enough.
This behavior is because I'm nottrained enough or I don't know enough.
(10:50):
I, think it's that sense of lack whichis disguised as imposter syndrome.
Abhra (10:57):
And you, touched upon it briefly as a coach, how do you
see, this as different to anxiety?
Or is it like a subsetof anxiety you would say?
Speaker (11:10):
Yeah, I think it's it's a combination.
So I think people suffer from anxiety.
There's other mental healthconditions, but I think imposter
syndrome definitely sits within that.
So I think it's, really difficult to, Isuppose, separate each of the conditions.
'cause I think if you're sufferingfrom imposter syndrome, then
you'll get a lot of anxiety.
(11:31):
Your mood might be quite low.
There could be panic attacksand things like that form.
But it's understanding,is it purely anxiety?
Is it purely panic attacks or is somethingelse going on that, that is missing?
And I think imposter syndrome is one ofthose things that just sits there in,
in the dark that is wreaking havoc onpeople's lives, but they're just not
(11:53):
bringing it out to the surface becausethey might not, they might just go to
anxiety straight away, or they mightjust go to low mood straight away.
They might not go to.
Imposter syndrome.
I don't think, if that is completelyout there in the open right now.
Abhra (12:11):
That's true.
And you mentioned somethingwhen we started talking that it
affects high achieving people.
Now, in this podcast series emotionalintelligence is a topic that I.
I love to discuss and ithas come up during many,
(12:32):
discussions with a lot of guests.
So, in a way when we are saying thathigh achieving people they face this
imposter syndrome quite a lot, thatin a way says that high iq, do not sit
with a good eq, so, but these two thingsare very different, like emotional
(13:00):
quotient and intelligence quotient.
But often when people are, peoplehave high iq, they do not have that
equal emotional awareness counterpart.
Does that kind of reflect what youwere saying initially in a way?
Manikaa (13:21):
Yeah, I think so.
Definitely.
And I suppose maybe.
As a culture as well, especially inlike the workplace and things like that.
It's very much about high iq.
It's very much about performing toa certain level, being seen as a
certain authority in a certain subject.
Like you have your subject matterexperts and things like that.
(13:42):
And I don't know if the softer skills.
Are praised enough and the softer skillsthen come from emotional intelligence.
So do you know how to getthe best outta people?
Do you know how to see talent andembrace talent and nurture talent?
Do you know when to push someoneand when not to push someone?
(14:04):
I think those are not, thoseattributes are not phrased or taken
as seriously as getting the work andthe job done to a high standard and.
There seems to be a lot of stress aswell and chaos in, in previous roles
that I've had where we have to justget to this target no matter what, and
it doesn't matter really who we upset.
(14:25):
As long as we get our point across andwe get to the target, that's the main
objective and I think maybe, yeah.
Then IQ and EQ.
It doesn't really sit at the same level.
I think one's more importantthan the other, which then does
attribute to imposter syndrome.
'cause I, from the research that Ilooked at environments where it's
(14:46):
very much focused on the outcome.
It breeds imposter syndrome.
So if companies or households are focusedon, say their children or their colleagues
just getting to that outcome, and if theydon't get to the outcome, they failed.
And if they get to the outcome, they'vedone a really good job and they get
praised those environments, breed impostersyndrome, because it doesn't really matter
(15:10):
how the person has got there, how mucheffort they've put into getting there.
All that matters is, you've eitherhit the, target or you haven't.
And then yeah, that kind of createsthat imposter syndrome as well,
which I think is the EQ in the iq.
EQ is not important, but IQ probably is.
Abhra (15:28):
I ask that because from my experience I've, seen people with
really good subject matter expertise.
They come into a conversation and thenyou can tell that they are not taking
the feedbacks well or they're not, reallyholding up to their presentation or
their credibility, and I've seen more,
(15:53):
high IQ people falter at thatstage, which is why I brought it up.
And in a way it links to.
What you are saying, and you mentionedto me earlier as well, and in as a
part of this conversation as to youlooked at some research and in, this
particular domain would you like toshare anything as to where do you
(16:18):
think, imposter syndrome affects us inwhich domain or in which field of work?
And anything like that?
Manikaa (16:29):
Yeah, sure.
So.
From the research that I've looked at,and again, it's all ongoing and there'll
be a lot more coming out, but fromwhat I can see right now, it definitely
impacts people in like the medical field.
I think there's a lot of reports thatI can see in the medical field, and I
feel like that makes sense because ifyou are, say a surgeon, you've either
saved someone's life or you haven't.
(16:50):
You've either helped them with theirhealth or you haven't, and again,
it's that you've hit the objective.
Or you failed mentality rather thanhow much effort, determination that
surgeon has had to complete their job.
It's it that is irrelevant.
So I feel like the, from a lot of theresearch that I've read, medical fields
have a lot of yeah, have a lot of studies,have a lot of participants that they're
(17:14):
measuring performance of in, terms ofwhether imposter syndrome is there or not.
Also as well, it is diverse communities,so it seems like there's a lot of
research around youth that are fromlow socioeconomic backgrounds, that are
minorities as well, that are probablygoing into the workplace and not being
around people that look like them,speak like them, carry themselves,
(17:36):
present themselves in the same way.
I feel like those people thenfeel like they may not belong
and might have to change.
The way that they are to thenbelong in this environment.
So there's a lot of studies aroundminorities and yeah, diverse
communities and, I think thoseare the two main focus points for
the research that I've looked at.
(17:57):
But in a way as well, it doesn'treally discriminate, so it could
affect anyone and everyone.
It's just that thosegroups are at higher risk.
But anyone that's been in an environmentwhere, again, it's just the objective,
so you're either hitting the objectiveor not suffering from imposter syndrome.
Also those that have come from householdsor work in environments where there's
(18:20):
extreme praise on one side, but thenthere's extreme criticism on the other.
So you are praised really well fordoing a great job here, but then you
are criticized quite heavily for notdoing a great job in the other areas.
And I think that kind of environmentalso breeds imposter syndrome.
And I see that come up quite alot in books that I've read and
(18:41):
research that I've looked at.
Abhra (18:44):
I love that we are putting a socioeconomic perspective into
the mix of understanding this.
That's so very important because welook at psychology and we just see
some theories, but they are not, I.
Isolated.
They are, yeah.
Basically the effect of some other, causeif we don't look at them or if we don't
(19:07):
understand them, then we are not gettingto the root bottom of it, let's say.
So I Yeah, love that.
How you, are, sharing these researchand this thinking that it's, not at,
mental capacity level, butthis is rooted much deeper.
(19:30):
So my, I really like that, in, termsof understanding imposter syndrome.
So where do you think it comes from?
Where, does it originate?
As in, within us?
Where do you think that comes up?
As in, if we need to understand our.
(19:50):
Imposter syndrome and to be able tocome out of it, why, where should
we look at and what would that,
healing pathway look like from there?
I mean I'm sure that the theorythat explains the cause would
also give us an opportunity tounderstand how to overcome that.
Manikaa (20:11):
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
I think the first place reallyis understanding how and why.
So firstly.
How does imposter syndromeaffect us on a day-to-day basis?
And why does it do that?
So, for example, some of the personasthat I've put together, a person that is
experiencing imposter syndrome, they couldbe the sort of person that puts their
(20:33):
hand up for challenging tasks at work.
They could want all the meatytasks, all the big projects.
They may want to come across like theyneed to prove themselves to others,
and they may come across like they'rereally passionate about what they do.
But actually inside the minute they'vetaken on that project or that task,
there's this internal battle where theymay feel like, oh, now that I'm on this
(20:57):
project and I'm leading this, I'm actuallygoing to be like, everyone's gonna see if
I fail or people are gonna judge me if Ican't get this from A to B, or if I can't
get people to work together I've failed.
And there's this automaticinternal negative conflict.
And I think if you can.
Look at the way that you performat work or the way that you
(21:19):
perform in your personal life.
And you can maybe start looking atwhere there's an internal battle.
So are you the sort of person that isputting your hand up to help others
and to do all these great things, butthen actually immediately are you then.
Questioning it.
Is there a lot of shame there?
Are there negative feelings there?
Is there any kind of worry?
(21:40):
And I think if you are in a place whereeverything looks great on the outside
and you seem to be doing all these greatthings and people are coming to you and
saying, you're doing an amazing job.
You're this great person, but insideyou're not feeling it, chances are then
you are experiencing imposter syndrome.
So I would firstly lookat that internal battle.
Is that present in your life?
(22:01):
Because there are a lot of highachieving people that are confident
in what they do, and they don'thave that internal battle as much.
But if you're the sort of person thatis always in conflict with yourself,
I would start there and figureout, well, what is that conflict?
Where does it come from?
Where does it show up?
And really go down into the detail.
How often does this show up in my life?
What triggers it?
(22:22):
And I think from looking at that, youcan then start figuring out, well, why?
Why do I feel like this?
Where did this come from?
Was it, and it can be as simpleas a look, so you could just be
speaking in front of loads of people.
You might look at a certain person,they're daydreaming, but they seem
to be giving you a dirty look.
And all of a sudden then you think,oh my God, I'm not doing a good.
(22:44):
Job, and I'm terrible at this.
And that's where the impostersyndrome has come from.
It's just a simple, small expressionthat you've taken in the wrong way,
or it could be something reallysignificant that's happened in your
life, but it's, really difficult to makechange if we don't have awareness of.
What's going on with us and where it'scome from, and people don't need to
(23:06):
traumatize themselves and go throughall the trauma again of that scenario.
But it's important toacknowledge the root cause of it.
And once you know that, you can startcreating a bit of separateness so you
can say, okay, it was a random personthat seemed to give me a dirty luck
in the audience when I was presenting.
Does, what does that mean to me now?
(23:28):
Is that still important in my life now?
Do I care as much now?
And you can separate yourself from whereit originated from, and then you can
start your path to healing as well, andstarting to, change that, thought process
and that, that train of thought whenit comes up again in other scenarios.
Abhra (23:46):
That's very true.
I was listening to the previous episodethat I recorded on imposter syndrome, and
it was interesting as to, what are some ofthe suggestions that we looked at, okay?
And,
(24:08):
one of the areas that came up asa part of the conversation was,
to give ourselves some kind of, sense ofsecurity and calmness through breathing
exercises or through, physical sort of,
(24:31):
ness that you stand ground andyou hold your ground and build,
draw your confidence from there.
And, to me that felt like it's more ofa. Tactical fix to a bigger problem.
Personally, I would think thatif you really need to come out of
(24:52):
imposter syndrome, you first ofall need to be aware of it, and you
need to be aware of who you are.
So, as a coach, how do you seethis, like the tactical fixes as
well as the work someone has to doon themselves to come out of it?
Manikaa (25:09):
Yeah, I think the two are very important.
Definitely.
So, as you mentioned, you need to knowwhy and how and where it's come from.
So the original kind of storythat you've told yourself that's
had an impact and then you needto see where it's showing up.
I think what happens isthere's an emotional response.
I think that's probably where thebreath work has come into it, because
(25:31):
when we are suffering from impostersyndrome, when we're in that meeting,
for example our heart can be racing.
We can start sweating.
Our voice starts shaking.
There's a physical response to how wefeel based on the fact that we don't think
we're doing good enough in that situation.
So I think the breath workcan really help because.
(25:51):
The way that the brain works isthat if you are having an emotional
response to something, you can'tthen make rational decisions.
It's just not the way that it works.
We have an emotional side of ourbrain that firstly needs to calm down.
So that's where the tacticalthings can come into place.
Figuring making sure that you'rebreathing correctly, figuring out
what kind of breath work works foryou, meditation, that kind of thing,
(26:14):
to really figure out how you can.
Arm your brain down, and thenyou, once your brain is calm, you
can then start making decisions.
So you're using the CEO thinking partof your brain, which is a neocortex,
which then comes in and startsmaking rational decisions for you.
But it can't do that if youare emotionally distressed.
So you, that's wherethe tactical comes in.
(26:35):
I think where the thinking brain comes inis where then you're starting to go into
the inner work, so you can work with likea therapist or a coach like myself, and
you can start looking at the inner work.
So you can start looking at.
What is getting in your way?
What are the blocks thatyou're currently experiencing?
Where is this coming from?
And that, that in itselftakes a lot of work, right?
(26:56):
To really figure out where impostersyndrome is showing up in your
life and how it's impacting youand the results of it can be quite
difficult to acknowledge that I.
Because I've suffered from impostersyndrome, I've struggled to voice my
opinions or because I've struggledfrom imposter syndrome, I've
always remained in the shadows.
I've never really projected my voiceand taken up space, and it can be really
(27:19):
like distressing to acknowledge the,impacts that imposter syndrome has had.
That takes a lot of work initself and a lot of inner work
to really hold someone's hand.
Take them through the reality of herimposter syndrome or other, impacts
as well with mental health andthings like that can have on them.
But then it's then using the tacticalthings like the breath work to figure
(27:41):
out how to calm the person down in themoment so they can think logically.
But then it's also training the brain ina certain way and it's making a decision.
So now I know where it comes from.
Now I know how it impacts me,and now I know the results of it.
What decision do I nowwant to make in my life?
Do I want to continue on doingthe same thing or do I want
(28:02):
to make meaningful change?
And I. Doing that inner work and trainingthe brain in a small, consistent way,
and the term is called neuroplasticity.
So scientists have actually come upwith this term called neuroplasticity
that talks about how the, brainis always evolving and learning.
So for example, if you have anaccident and you break a bone.
(28:23):
Your brain will work with your body tomend your bones and to get you walking
again, or get you moving your armsagain, it's always learning and evolving.
So once the acknowledgement ofwhat's going on has happened through
coaching or therapy or self-help bookspeople can also support themselves
if, that's the best option for them.
Then it's looking at, well, I knowmy brain can evolve and change.
(28:46):
What decision do I now want to makeonce I've done this work and I've
acknowledged where it comes from.
And then it's leading a person tomake small, consistent change changes
in their life towards that overallgoal, which could be driving at work
and not feeling like an imposter.
Or it could be getting a progression orprogression in, in, in a certain role
or whatever it is, but it's then makingsmall, consistent, sustainable changes.
(29:10):
Knowing that the brain willlearn, evolve, and adapt.
Abhra (29:15):
Neuroplasticity is, I said a lot there.
Yeah.
No, you said a lot ofimportant things there.
And neuroplasticity is definitely oneof the most wonderful, subjects of
modern neuroscience that I really love.
And remember we were, I was tellingthis to you earlier when we were
preparing for this episode that.
(29:37):
There, there is this, of course,this, tactical component of of
this, which is the breath work.
And then tricking your brain tothink that audience is not ready.
And there are all these sortof short term exercises.
And then there is the longterm aspects of it, right?
(29:57):
And then.
I want to hear a littlebit more from you as to,
you, are a coach.
So where, do you think,
the, imposter syndrome begins?
What I mean to say is that it definitelydoesn't start when a person is at.
(30:20):
Maybe thirties or forties, right?
It probably surfaced, longbefore where that, right.
So, what, is it that that are the signsthat you can identify that this, is
affecting you or this is affecting someoneyou know, and then you can guide them
(30:43):
or you can set them on the right path.
Manikaa (30:47):
Yeah, definitely.
So I think firstly, I reckon it wouldstart from, it could start from childhood.
It could start all the way backthere again, if you're from can't
speak, my voice is breaking.
Again, if you're from an environmentwhere extreme praise, extreme criticism,
chances are it started from childhoodor you've always been under pressure
to get really good results at school beseen in a certain way because the family
(31:11):
are seen in a certain way, and you haveto fit within that family structure.
No matter what's really going oninside, chances are then imposter
syndrome has started from school orfrom childhood or, your household.
Again, schools and the way thatthey conduct teaching students.
It's very much about passing orfailing, not really about why is a
(31:32):
child passing, why is a child failing?
What can we, learn from the childthat's, being really successful in
their grades and we can, help then trainthose that are not doing very well.
So I think even in school environments,it's very much about all or nothing.
So again, yeah, imposter syndromecan come from as early as.
When you were born to primary school,secondary school, university, and so on.
(31:57):
So it definitely, impacts people frommy own opinion and perspective way
before they've gone into the, workplace.
And I think as humans weare creatures of habit.
So based on like neuroscienceand, the research there, we.
It could be something very simplethat's happened to us that will then
lead to a reaction that then becomesa habit and imposter syndrome, for
(32:21):
example, in someone that's beensuffering from it since childhood.
They might be the sort of personthat neglects their self-care.
So that could be a signthat someone could see.
So when it comes to busy examperiods, when it comes to busy
projects at work, when it comesto a busy period in their life,
they're the sort of person that will.
Put everything into, thatbecause they're afraid to fail.
(32:44):
They're afraid to be seen as failing.
They're afraid to be exposed in that way.
So self-care is somethingthat they neglect.
They probably don't eat enough.
So hearing people, so I hearit all the time, oh I, can go
like a whole day without eating.
That could probably be someonesuffering from imposter syndrome.
The fact that you're not fuelingyour body and your body needs that
(33:06):
fuel to then work efficiently.
Why are you not doing that?
Is that because you feel like if Itake a break and eat, then I'm gonna
fail and not be able to achieve thispiece of work that I'm working towards?
I think people that.
Attribute their success to luck.
So if you're talking to someone and yousay, oh, you did a great job yesterday,
(33:27):
or, oh, you seem to be doing really well,and they say, oh well I, prayed a lot
and that's where I've got what I've got.
Or the opportunity just fell on my lap.
Or, just, it was just based on luck.
It's not me.
They just, they will not andcannot see how they've attributed.
To that success.
(33:47):
They will not look at themselves and lookat what superpowers they have, because
opportunities fall on anyone's lap.
But it takes a certain type ofperson to see the opportunity and
to maximize the opportunity, andnot everyone can and will do that.
So a high achieving person is the sortof person that will see something and
they will take it to the next level.
(34:08):
But they just say, well it just fell on mylap and I did what anyone else would do.
So I. Sharing that type of languageand or seeing a person neglect
themselves or seeing a person go aday without eating those types of
signs is probably where then theyhaven't got a balance in their life.
(34:29):
And there's this all and allnothing mentality, which could then
potentially mean that there's somesort of imposter syndrome there.
Abhra (34:38):
Very well thought.
Answer to that.
Thank you.
You mentioned that when someonehas understood that you know they
are affected by the syndrome,then they can seek out help.
I wanna hear from you, what'syour perspective that when should
someone approach a coach and whenshould someone look for therapy?
(35:05):
Do?
Is there a line that wecan draw and we can advise?
Anyone listening to this episode?
Manikaa (35:12):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
I think therapy and coaching, it doesfeel very similar because you're in a
one-to-one environment with a person and.
There is a lot of unpacking as well withboth coaches and therapists, but I think
where it's best to speak to a therapistis where you feel like you need a bit
more time to really unpack and understandwhat's been going on in your life and what
(35:37):
and, making sense of, what's going on.
So you might be in environments or youmight be going from one environment
to the next, where it's all.
Leading to this imposter syndromefeeling, or this negative feeling,
and you feel like you're, constantlyin a battle within yourself and
you just need to make sense of it.
And I think therapy's really good athelping you make sense of what's going on,
(36:00):
but therapy doesn't work towards a goal.
So yes.
Okay.
Indirectly, the goal would be to havebetter mental health and to have clarity
and to see things a bit more clearer.
There isn't specifically a goal.
I think where you would need acoach is where you've done a bit
of unpacking so you understandwhat's going on in your life.
You might have already gone totherapy and done a bit of unpacking
(36:22):
there, but now you really needto focus on getting out of here.
So I suffer from imposter syndrome.
It's had an impact in my life.
I've got my head around it.
I've felt my feelings and I've spokento someone, but now I really need to.
I need to move on.
I need to thrive.
I need to get outta this, feelingand this mindset that I've got, and I
(36:44):
wanna work towards getting outta that.
And I think that's where a coachcomes in because there's concrete
steps in helping you move from A toB and it's, measured results as well.
And it's not so much about the unpacking,it's more about unpacking so that we can
move and unblock to get to that goal.
And it's very much, yeah,driving in a certain direction.
Abhra (37:06):
I heard something very interesting in one of the episodes.
I just can't remember which one,that how we behave to the external
world is based on how we feel andhow we feel is based on how we think.
So if it is possible to change our.
Thinking, then we will feel differentlyand we will behave differently.
(37:31):
And I really love that comparison and whatwe are talking about on imposter syndrome.
So at the heart of it, it'sthe lack of self-awareness.
So if we can truly build.
Self-awareness, then itcan possibly, sort of,
(37:55):
show us that light atthe end of the tunnel.
And I'm sure as a coach you mightexperience that quite a lot more.
You, talk to people on a daily basis.
Is there, something you would like toshare with our audience today that how
we can, set a achievable target to buildour self-awareness and what are the
(38:20):
positive outcomes we can get from there?
Manikaa (38:24):
Yeah.
So was it to build the self-awarenesswhat we could do to start doing that?
Yeah, so
Abhra (38:29):
because I'm, just going to the root of imposter syndrome.
So we, talked about the factors,we talked about different layers,
and I am trying to address whatcould be troubling us at the core.
And that yeah.
Would potentially be, emotional awareness,self awareness and things like that.
(38:51):
And you are someone who works in thatdomain, so what, are the things you'd
like to share with our audience?
Manikaa (39:00):
Yeah.
I think for me personally, what Isee a lot is this internal battle.
And I think that we probably don'tacknowledge it enough and there's
a lot of shame around it as well.
So.
When we want to achieve greatthings, but internally we're
fighting with ourselves to get there.
Chances are that's, somesort of imposter syndrome.
(39:24):
And I feel like imposter syndrome ison a spectrum, so it presents very
differently based on each person.
But I think for me, when the mindand the heart are not aligned and
there's an internal conflict there,it's then making a note of that
and then figuring out where that.
Plays out in a person's life.
So journaling is really good to do.
(39:45):
Keeping a note of, okay,there's an internal battle.
Every time I speak to this person ormy manager makes me feel this way.
Like I want to achieveall these great things.
I'm putting my hand up toachieve all these great things.
But when I speak to my manager,I feel this sense of, I.
My mind and my heart not aligning.
And I think making a note of exactlywhere it's showing up in your life and
(40:06):
how often it's showing up in your life.
And I do this a lotwith my clients as well.
It sometimes will come up with a tally.
So we'll look at, well, how oftendid you experience this then?
Because I think a lot of peopledon't realize how often they're
having these negative experiences.
We, I think there was a stat somewherearound, we have like 90,000 thoughts
a day or something like that,and 80,000 of them are negative.
(40:28):
And we just mindlessly and there's,this thing called automatic negative
thoughts as well, and where we're justmindlessly having these negative thoughts
and these neg negative experiences.
Without even realizing it.
So the first step is understandingand catching exactly when
these negative experiences arehappening, and are they realistic?
Are they realistic, negative thoughtsthat you're having, or is it just
(40:52):
something that your brain is making up?
Because that's the waythat the brain works.
It's negativity bias.
So is it just.
Saying nasty things to you forthe sake of saying nasty things
because of 80,000 negative thoughtsin a day that we are having.
So not all of it can possibly be true.
So I feel like the first point isreally understanding and going into
(41:12):
the level of work, of understandingwhere these thoughts are coming
from, how often they're coming,what we're saying to ourselves,
but then what's the result of that?
And I think sometimes the result of thatin a session can be quite mind blowing.
So for example, I'll say to someone.
Because you're having this negativethought, it's impacting you in X, Y,
(41:33):
Z. And then they start putting thepieces of the puzzle together to say,
okay, because I think I'm not goodenough, I'm not progressing at work,
or because I think I'm not good enough.
I'm not speaking out in a meeting orbecause I think I'm not good enough.
I'm not building good relationships.
And that realization of, ohmy God, I've limited myself.
Because of these negative thoughts, itcan be quite powerful in a session because
(41:57):
then the penny drops of, wow, I'm limitingmyself because of the way that I think.
And then it's making a decision,okay, you are having these thoughts.
These are the impacts, but what do wewant to do to achieve something better?
How do we want to train the brainto start thinking about something
in a more of a positive light?
(42:18):
So what I try and doin sessions as well is.
Challenge the negative thoughts.
So we'll actively spend even,sometimes it takes an hour, really
going into the detail of how do wechallenge this negative thought?
So how do we find evidencefor where you have actually.
Done this in the correct way.
So for example, a client couldsay, well, I've got really good
(42:41):
feedback from work, or people tellme I'm great at this, or I've got
top marks or top top qualificationsfor this certain certificate that
I had to do, or whatever else.
So we actually start looking at evidencethat then conflicts with the negative
thought and then what we start, whatI start trying to get them to do.
(43:01):
Is looking at how they can then tellthat story to themselves in that moment.
So when this negative thought comes up,now we know what it is and we know what
you're saying to yourself straight away.
How can you then start?
Providing a brain with evidence of whythat negative thought is incorrect,
and they start building this pattern ofspeaking to themselves in a different way.
(43:22):
So instead of saying, why didn'tI think of that, or I'm not good
enough, they start saying, oh,actually I am good enough because I
got really good feedback last week.
Or I am good enough becauseI've got top, marks on this
certificate that I was doing.
So it's, then rewiring thebrain and talking to themselves
in a different way, but.
The only way that I would say youcan make really good progress is when
your heart and your mind are aligned.
(43:44):
When your heart is openand your mind are aligned.
And it's doing a lot of work to reallyget someone to open up their heart and
align it with what they're thinking.
So I think up until then, ifyou're always in conflict, the
change is really difficult.
You can try and trick yourself,but we need to find ways.
To align the brain and the hearts thatyou are, you're singing off the same
(44:05):
hymn sheet and your body is feelingthe way that you're thinking, and
it's about doing that work as well.
Abhra (44:13):
This is very well said as if you recall, I was trying to tell you
last week that all the preparations andeverything will only take you so far
unless you put in your inner work there.
You cannot truly come out of it.
You can possibly practice a lot and youcan, camouflage that fear with something
(44:36):
else, but if you do not address the.
Root then it'll continue to trouble you.
And thank you for explaining thatso well, and, for me, I think I have
gone into all the different areasthat I really wanted to explore.
Is there anything you would like to sharewith our audience that I didn't bring up?
Manikaa (45:02):
No I think we've pretty much covered quite a lot of it.
I think that the main importance really isto help people understand where imposter
syndrome comes from, who it impacts.
Signs that they might not be aware of.
So for example, when I said the personthat puts their hand up, so one of your
audience members is the sort of personthat always puts their hands up for
(45:23):
meaty projects, challenging roles, butthen there's this internal conflict.
They might not see thatas imposter syndrome.
And it's, looking at signs likethat, that I'd really wanna get
out there for people to look atimposter syndrome in a different way.
Like if you're the sort of person that.
Isn't taking care of yourself, doesn'tput importance to self care whilst
(45:45):
you're in busy phases in your life.
Is that a sense of imposter syndrome?
I think it's really important to have somesort of balance in life and to flow with
life and not to pull ourselves up by thecollar and drag ourselves through life.
And I think if you listenersare the sorts of people that.
Are experiencing this inner conflictand not taking care of themselves.
(46:05):
Maybe then there's an opportunity for themto start looking into imposter syndrome
a little bit more, finding out how itimpacts them, and yeah, starting to,
starting their journey with that innerwork to, make sure that their heart and
their, mind is aligned and that they canyeah, live authentically and, thrive.
Abhra (46:24):
Very beautifully wrapped up the session.
And thank you once again forjoining Stories in stanza and
for your beautiful thoughts.
Manikaa (46:34):
Thank you.
It's been a pleasure.
Been an honor to be here.
Thank you.
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