October 11, 2025 • 50 mins
In this episode of Stories and Stanza, host Abhra is joined by psychologist Patty from Chicago to dive into the complexities of generational trauma, perfectionism, and self-awareness. They discuss how cultural expectations can shape behaviors, the importance of unlearning harmful patterns, and the impact of obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) on daily life. Throughout their intimate conversation, Patty shares her personal experiences with immigration and identity while offering insights into how trauma and perfectionism are interconnected. Tune in to learn more about the significance of self-awareness and strategies to foster a lifestyle of calm and well-being.
Patty Johnson is a psychologist who specializes in trauma healing and obsessive-compulsive disorder. She also creates art related to culture, justice and the bizarre and beautiful intricacies of life. She is the author of Essays of Night and Daylight, on movement through life as she explores kaleidoscopes of identity, pondering comments such as, "Oh, you speak such good English!" She wonders about the shame behind her grandmother's tribal tattoo after being visited by Christian missionaries. She revels in the making of chai, this earthy elixir that reminds her of the power of each brown-skinned woman. Patty’s work can be found in The Broken Spine, Write City Magazine, Riksha Magazine and elsewhere. She gave a TEDx talk on changing the narrative of inequity. She is also a guitar goddess but only in the eyes of her dog, Marley.
Links: website: IG/threads: @pjtemple7 Tik Tok: pjtemple7
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Episode Transcript
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Patty (00:07):
what I do in my work is really try to normalize the fact that like
every one of us fails, nobody's perfect.
Nobody does something.
The first time I was like, oh, what?
That was a masterpiece.
So much is about unlearning.
Unlearning generational trauma patterns,unlearning messages people have said
(00:28):
about us whether it's parents orsociety or school teachers or whatever.
Unlearning those things and realizing,wait, like this is my true, authentic
self and I need to clear all of thenoise so that I can get to that.
that perfectionist is so tied to,
(00:48):
I have to prove myself.
We have to unlearn that andsay, no, you are good enough.
The messaging that you're not issomething that is not a, it's not factual.
Abhra (00:59):
it is possible once you know that this is what it is possible
to, retell that story rewire yourmind to perceive in different ways.
Hello everyone.
I am Abhra, and thisis Stories and Stanza.
Let's dive into what makes us humanthrough intimate conversations about
(01:19):
creativity, failure, and resilience.
Let's begin.
Hello everyone and welcome to anew episode of Stories and Stanza.
And today I have Patty withme as our guest and she's a
psychologist from Chicago.
And Patty, welcome to stories and Stanza.
We have been exchanging ideas forsome time, and I really wanted to
(01:40):
have you as a guest on the show.
How are you doing today?
Patty (01:44):
I'm wonderful.
I'm wonderful.
I'm excited to speak with you.
And yeah, we've had like reallygreat discourse over social media,
so excited to talk more about some ofthe threads we've been exchanging and
like thoughts about lots of things.
So thank you so much for having me.
Abhra (02:02):
I really like threads as a platform because I think I have met some
of my wonderful guests on threads and Ithink that it follows the same sort of.
Format as Twitter, but I thinkTwitter has gotten like, it has
(02:24):
changed a lot over time and thereare too many hashtags and too many,
wrong sort of updates and things.
I don't really like that as aplatform, as opposed to threats
where I think how they have handledthat solution better is using one.
(02:45):
Sort of content tag for your posts.
And that sort of brings youcloser to people who are on
social media, on similar subjects.
Like if you want to interact withpoets, if you want to interact with
writers and psychologists and so forth.
So it does that grouping as per Europe.
(03:08):
Thinking so it brings you closer to peoplethat you really believe in yourself.
So I'm thankful to thread forconnecting me with some of my
guests for our listeners today.
So we intend to cover some interestingaspects related to the psychology
(03:28):
of migration, and we have had someinteresting sort of talking points.
So before we get started could youtell us a little bit about yourself
and how this team speaks to you?
Why this is so important to you?
Patty (03:48):
So it comes from a very personal place and just I was born in Chicago
shortly after my parents migrated.
And so just watching all of thedifferent dynamics that, that we were.
Growing up with, and my mom wasonly 18 when when she had me.
(04:11):
And so she was really growingup and developing her culture.
Outside of like, not outside of, butlike alongside of Indian culture and
bringing that here and also acclimatingto American culture or trying to at least.
And so really that's thestory for both of my parents.
And while I was bornhere through a lot of.
(04:33):
Cultural aspects of America thatI just naturally picked up on
because of friendships, becauseof school and just my environment.
And so immigration for me and lookingat like what the experience has been
for my parents versus me, and eventogether intergenerationally, how we
have similarities and then some reallyfundamental differences that have caused
(04:57):
some heartache between us as well.
So.
Good, bad, ugly related to immigration.
Abhra (05:06):
That is wonderful and I'm an immigrant myself.
I lived in many places inIndia before I moved, outside.
And then ever since I have beenoutside India, I have always questioned
this, like, where does my identity?
I do.
Mix with, where I am going or doI keep my identity as I know it.
(05:33):
And that has led to a lotlifetime of explorations.
And we will talk about thatthrough the conversation.
But before we get started, there'ssomething that I really, like to hear from
my guests and that's because I call thissection of the podcast as Fail with Me.
And there are a couple of reasons.
(05:55):
So I see a lot of times in our societywe just talk about success or success
in more materialistic terms, andwe don't talk often about failure.
And when we are going throughfailure in our lives, then it becomes
harder and harder for us to accept,understand, and move to the next step.
(06:20):
So I had a few difficulty years andI thought that if I start opening up
about failures or if I start lookingat failures more objectively and
try to understand what that tellsus, then it would be a good thing.
And that's what I've been doing in thispodcast have been, has been enriched
(06:40):
by voices from people around the world.
And I think that when we started talkingon social media, I think the, one of the.
Key points if I just have to kind ofgeneralize, what we really connected
upon is, about unlearning our.
Conditioning.
Yeah.
And we talked about it in differentaspects, but we in, essentially we
(07:06):
talked about unlearning and that's oneof the key pillars that I try to cover
in Fail with Me, and also it gives you.
That compassion towardsyourself that you failed.
So what you try something else.
So as opposed to taggingyourself as failure, you just
understand failure as one stateand then you move on to the next.
(07:28):
So that's basically thetheme behind fail with me.
And as a psychologist, can youtell us how does this speak to you?
Does it resonate with you?
Does it connect with your the, workthat you are doing and so forth?
Patty (07:47):
Yeah.
No I, love that titlefeel with me, because.
So much to say about whata beautiful title it is.
But failure is oftenexperienced in isolation.
It's like, oh, I messedup, like why did I do that?
And like, I'm awful.
Or all these like negativemessages that we tell ourselves.
All this negative self-talk that goes onbounces around our heads and really like.
(08:11):
When we fail, we don't if we lookat social media, people aren't
bragging about their failures.
They're bragging about all of thegood and amazing things and all the
trips and like all the good things.
And so I think Fail withme is so deep rooted.
I think I just hearing the title,I'm like, oh, it's just so rooted in
community rather than the isolation.
(08:35):
And so yes, that, thattheme resonates strongly.
And what I do in my work is really tryto normalize the fact that like every
one of us fails, nobody's perfect.
Nobody does something.
The first time I was like, oh, what?
That was a masterpiece.
It's like, I can't tell you howmany times I edited my memoir.
(08:55):
Or a piece of poetry that mightbe like five lines, and I'm like,
dog, I gotta keep, I gotta go back.
I gotta it's like, whatever itis, it's like even in in, in
writing, in life, all of it.
It's like doing things again until we.
Until we learn, until we unlearn andthen learn again, as you were talking
(09:15):
about, which I strongly agree with.
So much is about unlearning.
Unlearning generational trauma patterns,unlearning messages people have said
about us whether it's parents orsociety or school teachers or whatever.
Unlearning those things and realizing,wait, like this is my true, authentic
(09:36):
self and I need to clear all of thenoise so that I can get to that.
So in my mind, failure isreally more often exploration.
So I think when you sayfail with me my, my.
First understanding,it's like, oh, explore.
Explore with me so we canget to where we wanna go.
(09:58):
And so it's a very gentle, verykind, loving, community-based title.
I just really love it.
So.
Abhra (10:07):
Thank you so much and this, is something we should try to talk
and explore in our session today.
So, of course the migration andthen the generational trauma
and then also understanding,
like,
(10:30):
so the trauma is one part, butunderstanding oneself when we are
affected by trauma is somethinga little bit more significant.
And we we also talked about like thechanging dynamics, like the family
dynamics are changing because ofmigration, and that affects our awareness.
(10:54):
In many, ways.
So let us try to get into that.
So for our listeners, could you talk usa little bit about your line of work?
Where do you predominantly focuson and some of the barriers
that you notice in this space?
And then we will try toget into more details.
Patty (11:18):
Sure.
So I do I, was a generalist and Inarrowed in on really trauma and then
of course anxiety and depression thatcomes with that and other mental health
issues that come up along with trauma.
And so I really focus in ontrauma as well as, which is.
(11:41):
Sometimes very closely connectedis obsessive compulsive disorder.
And so I, specialize in that.
And those two really, when I starttalking about the dynamics of those,
I realized they really resonatefor people who are immigrants,
into another country and havethat experience of being.
(12:06):
Of, trying to acculturate, but stillfeeling like the other, and always
that feeling of the other, even ifthey're at home with their parents,
maybe they migrated together, maybethey were born in the new country.
Whatever it is, there's a sense of likeone foot here, another foot somewhere
else, maybe a few feet in differentplaces, because we are, we're just
(12:31):
such a. T tapestry of our experiences.
And so with migration especially, there'sthe nuances of, what are we carrying?
What are we carrying with us?
What of our parents andgenerations prior carried?
And even just with immigrating, canbe very traumatic for some people.
And all of the different factorsthe, adjustment, the socioeconomic
(12:55):
factors, the acceptance or not intoa country, like all of those things.
Or something that I oftentalk about with my patients.
And then I've noticed that in immigrant,and this is overgeneralizing of course,
so you know everybody is different.
I have to say, every family, everyimmigrant family I don't even wanna
(13:19):
over generalize about Indian families.
There are so many subcultures.
So keeping that in mind, I'llsay, indian immigrant families,
like something that I have seen inother immigrant families as well.
But this theme of productivity andperformance, like we have to prove
ourselves, that, we are just as goodand that we deserve to have this
(13:44):
position in life position at a job.
That we deserve to beknown as American also.
And so I've seen themes of.
Perfectionism, which are often underthe umbrella of obsessive compulsive
disorder, or at least obsessivetendencies or personality features
(14:06):
where people are trying very hardto live within this very, restricted
view of what they should be doing.
I should get this career, I shouldbe with this type of person.
I should everything is very scripted andthat causes a lot of emotional distress.
So I zone in on that specifically.
(14:28):
That like the layers of familytrauma as well as the OCD symptoms
that might come up, even if it'snot clinically diagnosable, OCD,
seeing those features of OCD.
So
Abhra (14:42):
you, you touched upon something really, fundamental there, which is
the perfectionism and then trying to
excel in work or in studies in society.
So that is at constant pressure ofdoing it well, and this is something it.
(15:04):
I realized at a very later stagein my life that I have inherited
some of these patterns withoutknowing that when I was doing it.
Consciously or unconsciously,but that is not me.
And that's something I haveinherited culturally maybe.
And I guess that is an,inherent difference between the.
(15:32):
Eastern and western sort ofphilosophy work, I guess.
So I I would like to understandthis a little bit more here.
Like, to me, this need to excel orto be perfect or to, for getting
accepted that comes from someunmet, thinking at, our core.
(15:58):
What, has been sort ofyour observation here?
Patty (16:03):
So often, and I'll stick with talking about this, is nuance
to, you know, Indian culture.
Although it shows up in other countries aswell, but in Indian culture, there's the
idea that we have to align with whiteness.
(16:24):
And so that's something, that's a themethat often comes up and we're seeing that.
So much right now.
It's it's, very much in the news in theUS we're having discussions about like,
who is an immigrant who perceives themselfas an immigrant versus who doesn't,
you know, because some people tend tothink like I've been here for two, three
(16:46):
generations now, so I'm fully American.
I'm not Indian anymore.
Or even like with other ethnicities,like trying to kind of shake off
that idea because there's this.
Alignment with whiteness.
And that's something that has beentaught generations ago that like if you
perform to the standards of whiteness,that is what is right and good.
(17:12):
And so.
Ha that being embedded for generations,people are automatically just trying
to conform to those requirements.
And so like a lot of what I've seenis in work environments, for instance,
people feel like, oh, I just have to,I have to perform to this very high
standard to make sure that my colleaguessee that I'm doing a really good job,
(17:37):
that they appreciate what I'm doing.
And there's this inner sense of,
inner sense of what's the word?
The, that, I'm not, good enough intheir eyes until I prove that I am.
(17:58):
It's this need to prove.
That like, yeah, I'm just assmart, I'm just as worthy of having
this position that you also have.
And so that can create a lot of impostersyndrome where people are like, oh,
but am I really qualified to do this?
Like, am I really doing as goodof a job as my white counterpart?
(18:20):
Like, do they see me as part of the team?
And with, in my work and even in mypersonal experience, I've seen where.
People because of racial differenceshave, perceived, I'll just say for
me, for instance have perceived me as,
(18:43):
not working as hard, and I had to providethe evidence of that and say like, oh,
but this is the research I've done.
This is the work I've done.
This is the whereas some of mywhite counterparts have not had
to prove themselves in that way.
And so there's that can comeup in a very obvious way.
It can also be in a very insidiousway receiving different opportunities.
(19:06):
And I mean, there's so much to, tosay about the systemic ways that.
Equality is not present for differentpeople of different backgrounds.
Right.
But that perfectionist is so tied to,
I have to prove myself.
And so anytime we'retrying to prove ourselves,
(19:30):
we're also like most timeswe're trying to prove ourself.
We're also overcompensating.
And so that's an aspect ofthat as well, where we're like,
oh, I just have to, I have to.
Work more hours than my colleague.
I have to just put in so much more.
Even in it comes up in school itcomes up in friendships it's just
like embedded in all of thesedifferent parts of people's lives.
(19:54):
And so we have to undo that.
We have to unlearn that andsay, no, you are good enough.
The messaging that you're not issomething that is not a, it's not factual.
It's actually something that'screated by society and societal.
Perceptions.
So that's where you see whereperfectionism comes in, where
obsessiveness comes in, wherepeople start to develop compulsions.
(20:18):
They start to become almost addictedto work, thinking that they can
prove their value and their worthwith how hard they're working.
So that's the short answer to that one.
It has so many, it has somany branches to it, but.
Yeah, I think as I'm talking about, I'malso remembering, like I was working
(20:41):
very hard in a, a, the research divisionof an organization and I had ideas
that I presented to my supervisor whothen presented them to the director
as though they were her ideas and.
I think that is an example I often comeback to when we think about the voice of a
(21:05):
person of color or even with women, right?
Like when we're in a room and it'slike, are we really seen or do we
have to prove ourselves to be seen?
So yeah, that's just one example of many.
Abhra (21:24):
No, it, it speaks volume and it, I have seen this, pattern in so many ways.
I can just go on and on about this,and you are so very right that there
is that need that tick in our headthat, am I seen, am I accepted?
Am I good enough?
And then the behavior that we engagein becomes a classic overcompensation.
(21:51):
We will explore the identity sideof things in today's conversation.
And for our audience.
Could you tell us a little bit more aboutOCD and how it sort of affects people?
Because then in, in many cases, likeI'm just saying that I'm trying to,
(22:14):
sort of share facts and explanationsaround it because sometimes OCD can
is seen that, oh, it's just, justsomething in, in your behavior.
It's not harmful.
But I have also seen OCD reallyimpacting your day-to-day life.
And if you want, I cantalk about it as well.
I just wanted to hearyour thoughts around that.
Patty (22:37):
Yeah, no, I really appreciate the question.
Because OCD is so very misunderstoodand we often hear people saying, oh, my
OCD is acting up, or, oh, I'm cleaningbecause of my OCD, and it's just,
there's this mainstream understandingof it that it's this just mild,
(22:57):
form of being rigid or extra clean.
Not liking germs, but it reallygoes so far beyond that where people
can develop really, really seriousobsessions about different things.
It can be cleanliness, it can be abouthealth, it could be about performance.
(23:18):
It could be that person, for instance,ends up checking their work schoolwork,
their work at, their work at a job.
So, so many times that it turns intoseveral minutes or even hours and during
that time that they're checking, makingsure like, oh, is this email good?
(23:38):
Did I make any mistakes?
Am I sending it to the right person?
Just checking even just the nameof the person that they wanna send
the email to, for instance, thatjust really being fixated on that.
For several minutes or, even hours.
If we think about, like we might revisean email and it that takes an extra like
maybe 10, 20 minutes, maybe 30 minutes atmost, but people spending hours on that
(24:02):
and really picking that apart and thewhole, while they're doing that, they're
very emotionally distressed thinking,oh my gosh, what if I make a mistake?
What if I do this wrong?
What if my boss is upsetwith me because of it?
And that what if, what if, So it is.
At its base, it is an anxiety relateddisorder, but it's then really
(24:26):
heightened by these obsessions thatreally won't allow a person to shift
to something else that starts to,to affect many areas of daily life.
And clearly we can see how itaffects work, but then you think
about if a person is spending hours.
Checking one email.
They're not spending timewith their loved ones.
(24:47):
They, if they have children, that'staking away time from their children.
It's taking away time from theirhaving to do daily things like
their laundry or going to thegrocery store, whatever it might be.
And so, and that's just one areapeople have, could have obsessions
about relationships relationship,OCD it's called, where they're like,
(25:08):
oh, am I supposed to be with thisperson, this particular person?
Am I supposed to be inthis particular job?
Am I there there's so many categories.
There are health related obsessions,there are obsessions related
to doing things just so, whichis very perfectionist related.
(25:31):
It's like, oh, this has tobe positioned in this way.
And if it's not, there'ssignificant distress about it.
Which if a person doesn't know about it,they can think, oh, that's so frivolous,
and it's so, it's almost funny andquirky that this person needs this to be.
Just, right.
But it's very distressing for the person.
(25:52):
There's also harm related OCDwhere people might get intrusive
thoughts about hurting someone.
So they're like, oh, like, what if Iaccidentally hit someone with my car?
What if I accidentally callthis person a bad name?
What if I what if I stab my, loved one?
And they have no intentionto do it, by the way.
(26:12):
That's the difference between, asociopath and a person with OCD,
but you can also see why people arevery secretive about the disorder.
Because if they're having these thoughts,they're not going around telling
people that they're like, oh my gosh,I'm having thoughts about stabbing my
girlfriend, my boyfriend, whatever.
(26:36):
So those are just, some ofthem there are more subtypes.
But yes, a very distressing, itcan be a very debilitating disorder
and it ranges from mild to severe.
And so we can see how, when we thinkabout perfectionism and we think
about how a person might cope withimmigration trauma, for instance, and the.
(27:00):
The desire to fit in.
We can understand how a person mightthe brain starts to develop almost a way
of coping, except it's maladaptive, soit's like, oh, if I just do this very
perfectly, then people will accept me.
So it can be very related tosome trauma that's occurred, but
(27:22):
not always, but many times, yes.
Many times we're able to trackit back to like, oh this is, the
place that this might've, began.
So
Abhra (27:34):
thank you for sharing that.
And,
I wanted to talk about OCD for a littlebit because it, I think it kind of
fits into our conversation and as Iwas telling you about earlier about
my family's mental health challengesand my wife has gone through a period
(27:55):
of bipolar, and to some extent OCD aswell, and it was very hard to diagnose.
Where it was affecting her.
And I just wanted to add this to whatyou already shared, that, a lot of
times even she didn't know that shewas in that obsessive thought process.
(28:16):
So there, we the, doctors wouldfirst categorize everything as
depression, but then they'll.
Slowly understand it's not justdepression, there are symptoms of bipolar.
And when that was understood,then still they realized that
she was not completely better.
That is when it first, that she hadsome obsessive thoughts in her mind.
(28:40):
So they were repeating uncontrollably.
In, one direction, so, so to speak, likewe have rational thoughts and irrational
thoughts, but your rational mind wouldkeep your irrational thoughts in control.
But sometimes that control.
It's broken and then it irrationalthoughts interfere with your rational
(29:03):
mind, and then it can go on repeat andmaking it really, hard for the patient.
So if, anything, mental health hastaught me, and that is like, it is
very hard sometimes to articulate whatsomeone is going through and then.
(29:23):
It, takes some layers and layersof understanding and studying
to get to the bottom of it.
So yeah, just thoughtI'll, add it out there.
Coming back to where we started from,we were talking about perfectionism
and then where that can be rooted.
And, if, we look at.
(29:47):
Perfectionism and then we talkabout our the main area that we are
exploring the generational trauma.
Then this, is something I loveto hear your thoughts on, so.
Some trauma is our own andsome trauma can be ancestral.
(30:08):
So how does that get transformed into us?
How do we inherit those patterns?
Are these all behavioral or thereare some genetics behind it as well?
One, one of my guests who is a.
Life coach and and sheworks with women mostly.
And then she told me something beautiful.
(30:29):
A lot of times ancestrally womendidn't sort of, get the support, like
right level of support from theirfamily and their partners, et cetera,
when they were carrying the child.
And that led to some negative emotions.
And those negative emotionscascaded from them.
To their children.
(30:50):
And when the children were born, theywere kind of hating their mother.
So they were unresolved mother-daughterissues that got passed on from
one generation to another.
But I'm, talking about at a moresort of bigger scale from your
observation and from your work.
So what is generational trauma and trauma.
(31:11):
Our trauma is our own.
So are we passing some ofthat to others as well?
How does that work?
Patty (31:18):
Yeah, this is a wonderful question and again, it has layers and
I, think I would, I'd like to start bytalking about this amazing book that
came out called, it Didn't Start WithYou, you might be familiar with it.
The author talks about how trauma isso genetically rooted in our bodies.
(31:43):
So much so that we might havean ancestor who let's say was an
ancestor who had drowned, right?
At night, let's say like, I thinkthat was one of his examples.
And then generations forward, twogenerations forward, you have somebody
who feels like he's suffocating whilehe's sleeping and comes to find out
(32:08):
like, oh, you had an uncle who drownedin the middle of the night, and now that
sounds maybe just like, I don't know,like fiction or whatever it might be.
But then he went on to explain how.
The cells that are created in awoman when she's getting ready
(32:29):
to reproduce, right, are carried.
Those cells are carried through that childand also passed on to the next child.
So from grandmother to mother.
To the child.
So genetically we see thatthere is a connection.
So it's very, trauma is verybiologically based and it is
(32:50):
also environmentally based.
If a person grows up with a, let's say, amother with obsessive compulsive disorder,
then that child is also learning like, oh,we have to be very clean at home and we
have to behave in these different ways.
And it just starts to fold into the childas a part of who she is as well, right?
(33:14):
Like she's not thinking like, oh, likeI'm doing this because I see my mom do
it and maybe even my grandmother do itdoing this because this is what is right.
But then she goes around herfriends and her friends are like.
What are you doing?
Like, why are you, likefolding that thing that way?
Why are like whatever it might be areyou checking your answers for several
(33:40):
minutes and the kid is like, oh,this is what my mom taught me to do.
So it's like children can be taught.
Unhealthy patterns.
Children can be taught disorders aswell un unwittingly of course, like
no parent wants to their child to.
Inherit something like that.
(34:01):
But that is very, like, it can be verybehaviorally and emotionally patterned
to the next generation until there'ssomething that intervenes and says
like, oh wait, no that's not, healthy.
That is not, that doesn'tfeel good or right.
And that is taking away my peace.
It's taking away my joy to do that.
I need to do something differently.
(34:23):
So.
It is it's, nature and nurture is,is the answer in my experience.
And, yeah.
So it manifests in, multiple ways.
And I'm sitting here.
I'm like, there's so much to say.
There's so much more.
But yes, please.
(34:44):
I'll, pause for a moment.
What are your thoughts?
Abhra (34:46):
No, thank you for that.
And the, this is something me and mybrother, we often talk about, like there
was a period when we were, I think we wereboth struggling in our own world, so I
moved to Australia and he moved to Europe.
Sir. Growing up in the same house and nowthere are three continents between us.
(35:07):
And then we were struggling to findour ground wherever we were, and
then it was stressful, and thenfamilies and things like that.
And then we, both of us startedjournaling, writing down
something we are feeling andthen trying to understand what.
Might have caused us we arefeeling bad about something,
(35:28):
what might have caused us.
And we were very introspective about it.
And then we realized that some ofthis is not just us, it's coming
from our family, coming from morethan one generations, which is why.
We became curious about this andobjective about it, like oh, there,
then if this is it, then we haveseen patterns of it, or we have seen
(35:52):
traces of our, emotional inheritance,let's say through generations.
How we look at it.
And then we, it is possible once youknow that this is what it is possible
to, retell that story rewire yourmind to perceive in different ways.
(36:12):
But it is a lot of work.
It's a lot of, I, I have seenpeople go through with their life
with without understanding this.
And then in that process they getbitter and upset and frustrated.
But there are ways to nurture andchange that sort of narrative now.
(36:34):
We, talked about a little bit about thefirst part of what we were we had in
mind generational trauma or perfectionismand this conditioning, et cetera.
And then I think there are some piecesof it is, it, defines who we are.
So our self-awareness and.
(36:55):
Every day I see so many people beit at work, be it in the family,
be it in the friends, et cetera.
That self-awareness is something peoplestruggle with and they have not started
their work on understanding themselves.
And this gets particularly difficultin, in, the scenario that we are
(37:21):
talking about in light of generationaltrauma, in light of migration, in
light of getting accepted, in lightof changing, sort of relationship,
commitments and things like that.
We have a changing doyou want to take a break?
Patty (37:46):
No, I'm okay.
I am, I have my matchahere, so it's nice and warm.
Abhra (37:51):
Yes.
So I was saying thatthere are a lot of areas
That we,
these factors contribute toourself to understanding ourselves.
Okay?
And this is where what Iwanted to hear from you, and I
(38:14):
think we had some interestingdiscussions about relationships.
That, how do relationshipswork in such and such dynamics?
But the gen roles have evolved, thesociety has evolved, and because of
these factors, our self-awareness is.
Not properly built, but if it isbuilt, then we should be in harmony
(38:38):
with whatever change the rules are.
So this is something I want to hearfrom you in, light of what we are
discussing, that how do you seeself-awareness get affected and
what can we do to improve that?
Patty (38:56):
This is such an important part of, trauma, especially generational trauma.
And that intersection of trauma andimmigration because so much of it has to
do with identity and the missed that themissed opportunity that many people get
where they're, most of us, experiencesome level of trauma for our life.
(39:20):
We've experienced some level of trauma,but when there's generational trauma.
Generation after generation, thesepatterns are more and more normalized.
And so to see beyond thatcan be very difficult.
That insight that comes from maybe havinglike, oh, the opportunity to have other
healthy people in the family, like.
(39:40):
That may not be accessible to anindividual, and so their self-awareness
is really, it's blocked and they'rejust trying to survive from the trauma.
They're, even if they don't know it atthe time, like, oh this is, generational
trauma and I'm just trying to survive thisunhealthy pattern that's coming from all
(40:02):
of the negative messages from my family.
Maybe the criticism, maybethe, pressures to be.
A certain way, and to have a certaincareer, to have a certain partner, to
have certain income, all these things,like all of those pressures that are
placed on, people might just be seen aslike, oh, that's just how my parents are.
(40:23):
They're just very strict andthis is how they perceive,
this is how they perceive life should be.
But unfortunately, in doingall this, without having the
freedom to really understand whoa person is within themselves.
The, lack of opportunity toself-reflect, to understand like,
(40:43):
oh, I really connect with art.
I really connect with singing, with visualart with, writing with, this career, or
with, or, I wanna explore other countries.
I wanna explore like learning how to docalligraphy, whatever it might be, right?
Like just these intrinsicdesires we have to connect.
(41:05):
It's like those like.
What I call like small, big things, right?
They're, they might appear to be small,but they're such defining things about
a person to say like, oh, I'm a writer.
Now, if that's not nurtured, whena person is young and there are all
these, prescribed ways of living.
(41:27):
That's very dissonant to what theperson wants out of their life, but
they're living for somebody else.
They're living through a trauma-basedenvironment, and so they don't
get to explore these things.
They don't get to explore the fact that.
There's this external force outsideof them that is blocking their ability
(41:48):
to get to know themselves better, togiving them the emotional space and the
freedom to say honey, what do you like?
Like, what would you like to do today?
Or like what do you find to be fun?
It's like, no, like that's not my parentsthey, did the best that they could.
Most definitely.
(42:09):
But for, I was like, oh, Iwanna play tennis in school.
And they're like no, you don't.
You don't play tennis.
That's a waste.
You have to you have touse that time to study.
Or I was like, oh, I wannawrite, I wanna take this.
Like I wanna go to this writing thing.
Afterwards, they're like no,Writing is for the philosophers.
Like, you don't need that.
You're gonna be a doctor.
You have to study math andscience, and that's it.
(42:29):
And it's like, it seemslike a small thing like.
Like, okay, they want me to be a certaincareer, and many par parents are that way.
However, it's like when a child doesn'tget to explore the things that they
just intrinsically love, and they'retelling their parent this, and their
parent is like, ah that's crazy.
You can't do that.
(42:50):
It's like that's, that child is startingto shut parts of themselves down.
That child is not hearingtheir own voice any longer and.
It becomes convoluted.
Like what?
What do I wanna do?
Like what is my voice versus the voice ofother people who are putting on tremendous
pressure for me to do all of these things?
(43:10):
So then by the time people come tosee me, they're telling me about a
scenario in which they made a decision,and I'm like, do you think that
decision was based on what you wanted?
Or what your mother wanted, or yourfather, or your grandparent or your
uncles, your aunties the church,the mosque, the whatever, right?
(43:33):
Like, and they're like, oh, Inever thought about it that way.
I thought it was something I didn'twant, but I actually, I really
would like to do this other thing,and pulling that apart, like.
Those voices almost become one.
Because a child, even an adultchild is still trying to please
(43:53):
their parents, is still trying to.
Figure out whether like what theirparents want is the ultimate right thing.
Like and sometimes when really get intoa child's mind and say like, oh, you're
only going to succeed if you are thisparticular career making this amount of
(44:14):
money and have these many kids and a.
Husband or a wife that like doesthis type of job and you're living
in this state, in this town andyou're part of this community and
like everything is so prescribed.
And so like where does that child,whether they're a child or an adult
(44:35):
child, where do they have the space to.
Search for identity, for whatintrinsically feels right
and good, and brings them joyand brings them peace, right?
So that is the conundrum with trauma.
Abhra (44:52):
The, and this is such an important topic as well.
I think that we can go on andon about this, like we can
explore this in, many levels.
But we, for our discussion today, Ithink we have used up most part of our.
Time today.
(45:12):
And this is something I would love torevisit and talk in length with you.
And I just would like to take thisopportunity to tell our viewers for
joining for this discussion that if youcould share your thoughts, your queries,
and let us know that it would give us.
(45:34):
Some opportunity to comeback with a future episode.
So I would definitely loveto explore that because it
doesn't conclude the discussion.
It gives us that avenue thatthere are more things to explore.
But we have talked about so many importantthings in our discussion today, but you
(45:56):
are also a writer and you have published,and I wanted to hear about your books,
and if we could tell our listenerswhere they can find them we will put
the links in our episode descriptionso that they can, so would you like
to tell us about your books please?
Patty (46:15):
Sure.
Yes, I have I have one.
I have one I have one book that is abook of essays that talks about the
kaleidoscope of identities that weexperience as immigrants immigrant.
I talk about womanhood frommy personal experiences.
And then I also talk about justthe experience of immigrants.
(46:37):
Just doing everyday life and like ourliving side by side with people of other
cultures and like what that experience is.
So that you can find on www.pjtemple.com.
And then I have a memoir that, itis currently under representation by
(47:01):
Sarah Jane Freeman Literary Agency.
And so hopefully that'll becoming out in the next few months.
And then I also created a journalfor Calm called Breathe and Release
that's on the website as well.
But so I'll just talk about trauma.
And patients are like,okay, so what do I do?
And I'm like, so I, talk a lot about intreatment, about mind and body work and
(47:24):
how our bodies hold trauma, even if ourminds are not sure of what's happening.
And don't even sometimes rememberour trauma because our mind to
protect us tries to suppress or even.
Cause us to repress andforget some of those things.
And so I created a journal calledBreathe and Release that is a one year
journal where each month the writeris focusing on one particular aspect
(47:50):
of mind body work in order to decreaseanxiety and to start developing a
lifetime of a lifestyle of calm.
Which is very possible.
I tell people it is very possible to.
Understand and address anxiety and,but it's, only done effectively through
(48:10):
engaging both the mind and body.
So that's what that journal does, isit's a guided journal to learn principles
like breath work, self-compassionobservation, just this sense of radical
acceptance of like where we are.
In the moment.
So a lot of mindfulness as well.
So, so yeah, that's where I live.
(48:31):
Pj temple.com.
Abhra (48:33):
That's amazing and we will love to know more about that.
The, I think this was more of anintroduction and we touched upon some
of the areas that we wanted to, butagain, this is such a complex subject.
I would love to have you back on thediscussion and again, so for our viewers
(48:56):
feel free to share your questions, whetherin this episode or to Patty or to me
in social media or in threads and it'llgive us some more direction as to what
we should explore in a future discussion.
Thank you once again, Patty forjoining us, sharing such beautiful
thoughts, with the listeners today.
Patty (49:18):
Oh, thank you.
Thank you so much for just, yeah, likeI said the, discourse that we've had
is it's very what I I'll say it again.
What I really appreciated aboutyour sharing was I was so honest.
It was so raw, and we need tohear people's stories so that we
know that we're not alone and.
(49:38):
So, yeah, I really, enjoyed being on,and yes, we have, we did a, I don't
know, thinking about wine flights.
I guess we did like a flightof various topics related to
this, which was wonderful.
But yes, I'd be happy to continuethe conversation with you.
what I do in my work is really try to normalize the fact that like
every one of us fails, nobody's perfect.
Nobody does something.
The first time I was like, oh, what?
That was a masterpiece.
So much is about unlearning.
Unlearning generational trauma patterns,unlearning messages people have said
(00:28):
about us whether it's parents orsociety or school teachers or whatever.
Unlearning those things and realizing,wait, like this is my true, authentic
self and I need to clear all of thenoise so that I can get to that.
that perfectionist is so tied to,
(00:48):
I have to prove myself.
We have to unlearn that andsay, no, you are good enough.
The messaging that you're not issomething that is not a, it's not factual.
Abhra (00:59):
it is possible once you know that this is what it is possible
to, retell that story rewire yourmind to perceive in different ways.
Hello everyone.
I am Abhra, and thisis Stories and Stanza.
Let's dive into what makes us humanthrough intimate conversations about
(01:19):
creativity, failure, and resilience.
Let's begin.
Hello everyone and welcome to anew episode of Stories and Stanza.
And today I have Patty withme as our guest and she's a
psychologist from Chicago.
And Patty, welcome to stories and Stanza.
We have been exchanging ideas forsome time, and I really wanted to
(01:40):
have you as a guest on the show.
How are you doing today?
Patty (01:44):
I'm wonderful.
I'm wonderful.
I'm excited to speak with you.
And yeah, we've had like reallygreat discourse over social media,
so excited to talk more about some ofthe threads we've been exchanging and
like thoughts about lots of things.
So thank you so much for having me.
Abhra (02:02):
I really like threads as a platform because I think I have met some
of my wonderful guests on threads and Ithink that it follows the same sort of.
Format as Twitter, but I thinkTwitter has gotten like, it has
(02:24):
changed a lot over time and thereare too many hashtags and too many,
wrong sort of updates and things.
I don't really like that as aplatform, as opposed to threats
where I think how they have handledthat solution better is using one.
(02:45):
Sort of content tag for your posts.
And that sort of brings youcloser to people who are on
social media, on similar subjects.
Like if you want to interact withpoets, if you want to interact with
writers and psychologists and so forth.
So it does that grouping as per Europe.
(03:08):
Thinking so it brings you closer to peoplethat you really believe in yourself.
So I'm thankful to thread forconnecting me with some of my
guests for our listeners today.
So we intend to cover some interestingaspects related to the psychology
(03:28):
of migration, and we have had someinteresting sort of talking points.
So before we get started could youtell us a little bit about yourself
and how this team speaks to you?
Why this is so important to you?
Patty (03:48):
So it comes from a very personal place and just I was born in Chicago
shortly after my parents migrated.
And so just watching all of thedifferent dynamics that, that we were.
Growing up with, and my mom wasonly 18 when when she had me.
(04:11):
And so she was really growingup and developing her culture.
Outside of like, not outside of, butlike alongside of Indian culture and
bringing that here and also acclimatingto American culture or trying to at least.
And so really that's thestory for both of my parents.
And while I was bornhere through a lot of.
(04:33):
Cultural aspects of America thatI just naturally picked up on
because of friendships, becauseof school and just my environment.
And so immigration for me and lookingat like what the experience has been
for my parents versus me, and eventogether intergenerationally, how we
have similarities and then some reallyfundamental differences that have caused
(04:57):
some heartache between us as well.
So.
Good, bad, ugly related to immigration.
Abhra (05:06):
That is wonderful and I'm an immigrant myself.
I lived in many places inIndia before I moved, outside.
And then ever since I have beenoutside India, I have always questioned
this, like, where does my identity?
I do.
Mix with, where I am going or doI keep my identity as I know it.
(05:33):
And that has led to a lotlifetime of explorations.
And we will talk about thatthrough the conversation.
But before we get started, there'ssomething that I really, like to hear from
my guests and that's because I call thissection of the podcast as Fail with Me.
And there are a couple of reasons.
(05:55):
So I see a lot of times in our societywe just talk about success or success
in more materialistic terms, andwe don't talk often about failure.
And when we are going throughfailure in our lives, then it becomes
harder and harder for us to accept,understand, and move to the next step.
(06:20):
So I had a few difficulty years andI thought that if I start opening up
about failures or if I start lookingat failures more objectively and
try to understand what that tellsus, then it would be a good thing.
And that's what I've been doing in thispodcast have been, has been enriched
(06:40):
by voices from people around the world.
And I think that when we started talkingon social media, I think the, one of the.
Key points if I just have to kind ofgeneralize, what we really connected
upon is, about unlearning our.
Conditioning.
Yeah.
And we talked about it in differentaspects, but we in, essentially we
(07:06):
talked about unlearning and that's oneof the key pillars that I try to cover
in Fail with Me, and also it gives you.
That compassion towardsyourself that you failed.
So what you try something else.
So as opposed to taggingyourself as failure, you just
understand failure as one stateand then you move on to the next.
(07:28):
So that's basically thetheme behind fail with me.
And as a psychologist, can youtell us how does this speak to you?
Does it resonate with you?
Does it connect with your the, workthat you are doing and so forth?
Patty (07:47):
Yeah.
No I, love that titlefeel with me, because.
So much to say about whata beautiful title it is.
But failure is oftenexperienced in isolation.
It's like, oh, I messedup, like why did I do that?
And like, I'm awful.
Or all these like negativemessages that we tell ourselves.
All this negative self-talk that goes onbounces around our heads and really like.
(08:11):
When we fail, we don't if we lookat social media, people aren't
bragging about their failures.
They're bragging about all of thegood and amazing things and all the
trips and like all the good things.
And so I think Fail withme is so deep rooted.
I think I just hearing the title,I'm like, oh, it's just so rooted in
community rather than the isolation.
(08:35):
And so yes, that, thattheme resonates strongly.
And what I do in my work is really tryto normalize the fact that like every
one of us fails, nobody's perfect.
Nobody does something.
The first time I was like, oh, what?
That was a masterpiece.
It's like, I can't tell you howmany times I edited my memoir.
(08:55):
Or a piece of poetry that mightbe like five lines, and I'm like,
dog, I gotta keep, I gotta go back.
I gotta it's like, whatever itis, it's like even in in, in
writing, in life, all of it.
It's like doing things again until we.
Until we learn, until we unlearn andthen learn again, as you were talking
(09:15):
about, which I strongly agree with.
So much is about unlearning.
Unlearning generational trauma patterns,unlearning messages people have said
about us whether it's parents orsociety or school teachers or whatever.
Unlearning those things and realizing,wait, like this is my true, authentic
(09:36):
self and I need to clear all of thenoise so that I can get to that.
So in my mind, failure isreally more often exploration.
So I think when you sayfail with me my, my.
First understanding,it's like, oh, explore.
Explore with me so we canget to where we wanna go.
(09:58):
And so it's a very gentle, verykind, loving, community-based title.
I just really love it.
So.
Abhra (10:07):
Thank you so much and this, is something we should try to talk
and explore in our session today.
So, of course the migration andthen the generational trauma
and then also understanding,
like,
(10:30):
so the trauma is one part, butunderstanding oneself when we are
affected by trauma is somethinga little bit more significant.
And we we also talked about like thechanging dynamics, like the family
dynamics are changing because ofmigration, and that affects our awareness.
(10:54):
In many, ways.
So let us try to get into that.
So for our listeners, could you talk usa little bit about your line of work?
Where do you predominantly focuson and some of the barriers
that you notice in this space?
And then we will try toget into more details.
Patty (11:18):
Sure.
So I do I, was a generalist and Inarrowed in on really trauma and then
of course anxiety and depression thatcomes with that and other mental health
issues that come up along with trauma.
And so I really focus in ontrauma as well as, which is.
(11:41):
Sometimes very closely connectedis obsessive compulsive disorder.
And so I, specialize in that.
And those two really, when I starttalking about the dynamics of those,
I realized they really resonatefor people who are immigrants,
into another country and havethat experience of being.
(12:06):
Of, trying to acculturate, but stillfeeling like the other, and always
that feeling of the other, even ifthey're at home with their parents,
maybe they migrated together, maybethey were born in the new country.
Whatever it is, there's a sense of likeone foot here, another foot somewhere
else, maybe a few feet in differentplaces, because we are, we're just
(12:31):
such a. T tapestry of our experiences.
And so with migration especially, there'sthe nuances of, what are we carrying?
What are we carrying with us?
What of our parents andgenerations prior carried?
And even just with immigrating, canbe very traumatic for some people.
And all of the different factorsthe, adjustment, the socioeconomic
(12:55):
factors, the acceptance or not intoa country, like all of those things.
Or something that I oftentalk about with my patients.
And then I've noticed that in immigrant,and this is overgeneralizing of course,
so you know everybody is different.
I have to say, every family, everyimmigrant family I don't even wanna
(13:19):
over generalize about Indian families.
There are so many subcultures.
So keeping that in mind, I'llsay, indian immigrant families,
like something that I have seen inother immigrant families as well.
But this theme of productivity andperformance, like we have to prove
ourselves, that, we are just as goodand that we deserve to have this
(13:44):
position in life position at a job.
That we deserve to beknown as American also.
And so I've seen themes of.
Perfectionism, which are often underthe umbrella of obsessive compulsive
disorder, or at least obsessivetendencies or personality features
(14:06):
where people are trying very hardto live within this very, restricted
view of what they should be doing.
I should get this career, I shouldbe with this type of person.
I should everything is very scripted andthat causes a lot of emotional distress.
So I zone in on that specifically.
(14:28):
That like the layers of familytrauma as well as the OCD symptoms
that might come up, even if it'snot clinically diagnosable, OCD,
seeing those features of OCD.
So
Abhra (14:42):
you, you touched upon something really, fundamental there, which is
the perfectionism and then trying to
excel in work or in studies in society.
So that is at constant pressure ofdoing it well, and this is something it.
(15:04):
I realized at a very later stagein my life that I have inherited
some of these patterns withoutknowing that when I was doing it.
Consciously or unconsciously,but that is not me.
And that's something I haveinherited culturally maybe.
And I guess that is an,inherent difference between the.
(15:32):
Eastern and western sort ofphilosophy work, I guess.
So I I would like to understandthis a little bit more here.
Like, to me, this need to excel orto be perfect or to, for getting
accepted that comes from someunmet, thinking at, our core.
(15:58):
What, has been sort ofyour observation here?
Patty (16:03):
So often, and I'll stick with talking about this, is nuance
to, you know, Indian culture.
Although it shows up in other countries aswell, but in Indian culture, there's the
idea that we have to align with whiteness.
(16:24):
And so that's something, that's a themethat often comes up and we're seeing that.
So much right now.
It's it's, very much in the news in theUS we're having discussions about like,
who is an immigrant who perceives themselfas an immigrant versus who doesn't,
you know, because some people tend tothink like I've been here for two, three
(16:46):
generations now, so I'm fully American.
I'm not Indian anymore.
Or even like with other ethnicities,like trying to kind of shake off
that idea because there's this.
Alignment with whiteness.
And that's something that has beentaught generations ago that like if you
perform to the standards of whiteness,that is what is right and good.
(17:12):
And so.
Ha that being embedded for generations,people are automatically just trying
to conform to those requirements.
And so like a lot of what I've seenis in work environments, for instance,
people feel like, oh, I just have to,I have to perform to this very high
standard to make sure that my colleaguessee that I'm doing a really good job,
(17:37):
that they appreciate what I'm doing.
And there's this inner sense of,
inner sense of what's the word?
The, that, I'm not, good enough intheir eyes until I prove that I am.
(17:58):
It's this need to prove.
That like, yeah, I'm just assmart, I'm just as worthy of having
this position that you also have.
And so that can create a lot of impostersyndrome where people are like, oh,
but am I really qualified to do this?
Like, am I really doing as goodof a job as my white counterpart?
(18:20):
Like, do they see me as part of the team?
And with, in my work and even in mypersonal experience, I've seen where.
People because of racial differenceshave, perceived, I'll just say for
me, for instance have perceived me as,
(18:43):
not working as hard, and I had to providethe evidence of that and say like, oh,
but this is the research I've done.
This is the work I've done.
This is the whereas some of mywhite counterparts have not had
to prove themselves in that way.
And so there's that can comeup in a very obvious way.
It can also be in a very insidiousway receiving different opportunities.
(19:06):
And I mean, there's so much to, tosay about the systemic ways that.
Equality is not present for differentpeople of different backgrounds.
Right.
But that perfectionist is so tied to,
I have to prove myself.
And so anytime we'retrying to prove ourselves,
(19:30):
we're also like most timeswe're trying to prove ourself.
We're also overcompensating.
And so that's an aspect ofthat as well, where we're like,
oh, I just have to, I have to.
Work more hours than my colleague.
I have to just put in so much more.
Even in it comes up in school itcomes up in friendships it's just
like embedded in all of thesedifferent parts of people's lives.
(19:54):
And so we have to undo that.
We have to unlearn that andsay, no, you are good enough.
The messaging that you're not issomething that is not a, it's not factual.
It's actually something that'screated by society and societal.
Perceptions.
So that's where you see whereperfectionism comes in, where
obsessiveness comes in, wherepeople start to develop compulsions.
(20:18):
They start to become almost addictedto work, thinking that they can
prove their value and their worthwith how hard they're working.
So that's the short answer to that one.
It has so many, it has somany branches to it, but.
Yeah, I think as I'm talking about, I'malso remembering, like I was working
(20:41):
very hard in a, a, the research divisionof an organization and I had ideas
that I presented to my supervisor whothen presented them to the director
as though they were her ideas and.
I think that is an example I often comeback to when we think about the voice of a
(21:05):
person of color or even with women, right?
Like when we're in a room and it'slike, are we really seen or do we
have to prove ourselves to be seen?
So yeah, that's just one example of many.
Abhra (21:24):
No, it, it speaks volume and it, I have seen this, pattern in so many ways.
I can just go on and on about this,and you are so very right that there
is that need that tick in our headthat, am I seen, am I accepted?
Am I good enough?
And then the behavior that we engagein becomes a classic overcompensation.
(21:51):
We will explore the identity sideof things in today's conversation.
And for our audience.
Could you tell us a little bit more aboutOCD and how it sort of affects people?
Because then in, in many cases, likeI'm just saying that I'm trying to,
(22:14):
sort of share facts and explanationsaround it because sometimes OCD can
is seen that, oh, it's just, justsomething in, in your behavior.
It's not harmful.
But I have also seen OCD reallyimpacting your day-to-day life.
And if you want, I cantalk about it as well.
I just wanted to hearyour thoughts around that.
Patty (22:37):
Yeah, no, I really appreciate the question.
Because OCD is so very misunderstoodand we often hear people saying, oh, my
OCD is acting up, or, oh, I'm cleaningbecause of my OCD, and it's just,
there's this mainstream understandingof it that it's this just mild,
(22:57):
form of being rigid or extra clean.
Not liking germs, but it reallygoes so far beyond that where people
can develop really, really seriousobsessions about different things.
It can be cleanliness, it can be abouthealth, it could be about performance.
(23:18):
It could be that person, for instance,ends up checking their work schoolwork,
their work at, their work at a job.
So, so many times that it turns intoseveral minutes or even hours and during
that time that they're checking, makingsure like, oh, is this email good?
(23:38):
Did I make any mistakes?
Am I sending it to the right person?
Just checking even just the nameof the person that they wanna send
the email to, for instance, thatjust really being fixated on that.
For several minutes or, even hours.
If we think about, like we might revisean email and it that takes an extra like
maybe 10, 20 minutes, maybe 30 minutes atmost, but people spending hours on that
(24:02):
and really picking that apart and thewhole, while they're doing that, they're
very emotionally distressed thinking,oh my gosh, what if I make a mistake?
What if I do this wrong?
What if my boss is upsetwith me because of it?
And that what if, what if, So it is.
At its base, it is an anxiety relateddisorder, but it's then really
(24:26):
heightened by these obsessions thatreally won't allow a person to shift
to something else that starts to,to affect many areas of daily life.
And clearly we can see how itaffects work, but then you think
about if a person is spending hours.
Checking one email.
They're not spending timewith their loved ones.
(24:47):
They, if they have children, that'staking away time from their children.
It's taking away time from theirhaving to do daily things like
their laundry or going to thegrocery store, whatever it might be.
And so, and that's just one areapeople have, could have obsessions
about relationships relationship,OCD it's called, where they're like,
(25:08):
oh, am I supposed to be with thisperson, this particular person?
Am I supposed to be inthis particular job?
Am I there there's so many categories.
There are health related obsessions,there are obsessions related
to doing things just so, whichis very perfectionist related.
(25:31):
It's like, oh, this has tobe positioned in this way.
And if it's not, there'ssignificant distress about it.
Which if a person doesn't know about it,they can think, oh, that's so frivolous,
and it's so, it's almost funny andquirky that this person needs this to be.
Just, right.
But it's very distressing for the person.
(25:52):
There's also harm related OCDwhere people might get intrusive
thoughts about hurting someone.
So they're like, oh, like, what if Iaccidentally hit someone with my car?
What if I accidentally callthis person a bad name?
What if I what if I stab my, loved one?
And they have no intentionto do it, by the way.
(26:12):
That's the difference between, asociopath and a person with OCD,
but you can also see why people arevery secretive about the disorder.
Because if they're having these thoughts,they're not going around telling
people that they're like, oh my gosh,I'm having thoughts about stabbing my
girlfriend, my boyfriend, whatever.
(26:36):
So those are just, some ofthem there are more subtypes.
But yes, a very distressing, itcan be a very debilitating disorder
and it ranges from mild to severe.
And so we can see how, when we thinkabout perfectionism and we think
about how a person might cope withimmigration trauma, for instance, and the.
(27:00):
The desire to fit in.
We can understand how a person mightthe brain starts to develop almost a way
of coping, except it's maladaptive, soit's like, oh, if I just do this very
perfectly, then people will accept me.
So it can be very related tosome trauma that's occurred, but
(27:22):
not always, but many times, yes.
Many times we're able to trackit back to like, oh this is, the
place that this might've, began.
So
Abhra (27:34):
thank you for sharing that.
And,
I wanted to talk about OCD for a littlebit because it, I think it kind of
fits into our conversation and as Iwas telling you about earlier about
my family's mental health challengesand my wife has gone through a period
(27:55):
of bipolar, and to some extent OCD aswell, and it was very hard to diagnose.
Where it was affecting her.
And I just wanted to add this to whatyou already shared, that, a lot of
times even she didn't know that shewas in that obsessive thought process.
(28:16):
So there, we the, doctors wouldfirst categorize everything as
depression, but then they'll.
Slowly understand it's not justdepression, there are symptoms of bipolar.
And when that was understood,then still they realized that
she was not completely better.
That is when it first, that she hadsome obsessive thoughts in her mind.
(28:40):
So they were repeating uncontrollably.
In, one direction, so, so to speak, likewe have rational thoughts and irrational
thoughts, but your rational mind wouldkeep your irrational thoughts in control.
But sometimes that control.
It's broken and then it irrationalthoughts interfere with your rational
(29:03):
mind, and then it can go on repeat andmaking it really, hard for the patient.
So if, anything, mental health hastaught me, and that is like, it is
very hard sometimes to articulate whatsomeone is going through and then.
(29:23):
It, takes some layers and layersof understanding and studying
to get to the bottom of it.
So yeah, just thoughtI'll, add it out there.
Coming back to where we started from,we were talking about perfectionism
and then where that can be rooted.
And, if, we look at.
(29:47):
Perfectionism and then we talkabout our the main area that we are
exploring the generational trauma.
Then this, is something I loveto hear your thoughts on, so.
Some trauma is our own andsome trauma can be ancestral.
(30:08):
So how does that get transformed into us?
How do we inherit those patterns?
Are these all behavioral or thereare some genetics behind it as well?
One, one of my guests who is a.
Life coach and and sheworks with women mostly.
And then she told me something beautiful.
(30:29):
A lot of times ancestrally womendidn't sort of, get the support, like
right level of support from theirfamily and their partners, et cetera,
when they were carrying the child.
And that led to some negative emotions.
And those negative emotionscascaded from them.
To their children.
(30:50):
And when the children were born, theywere kind of hating their mother.
So they were unresolved mother-daughterissues that got passed on from
one generation to another.
But I'm, talking about at a moresort of bigger scale from your
observation and from your work.
So what is generational trauma and trauma.
(31:11):
Our trauma is our own.
So are we passing some ofthat to others as well?
How does that work?
Patty (31:18):
Yeah, this is a wonderful question and again, it has layers and
I, think I would, I'd like to start bytalking about this amazing book that
came out called, it Didn't Start WithYou, you might be familiar with it.
The author talks about how trauma isso genetically rooted in our bodies.
(31:43):
So much so that we might havean ancestor who let's say was an
ancestor who had drowned, right?
At night, let's say like, I thinkthat was one of his examples.
And then generations forward, twogenerations forward, you have somebody
who feels like he's suffocating whilehe's sleeping and comes to find out
(32:08):
like, oh, you had an uncle who drownedin the middle of the night, and now that
sounds maybe just like, I don't know,like fiction or whatever it might be.
But then he went on to explain how.
The cells that are created in awoman when she's getting ready
(32:29):
to reproduce, right, are carried.
Those cells are carried through that childand also passed on to the next child.
So from grandmother to mother.
To the child.
So genetically we see thatthere is a connection.
So it's very, trauma is verybiologically based and it is
(32:50):
also environmentally based.
If a person grows up with a, let's say, amother with obsessive compulsive disorder,
then that child is also learning like, oh,we have to be very clean at home and we
have to behave in these different ways.
And it just starts to fold into the childas a part of who she is as well, right?
(33:14):
Like she's not thinking like, oh, likeI'm doing this because I see my mom do
it and maybe even my grandmother do itdoing this because this is what is right.
But then she goes around herfriends and her friends are like.
What are you doing?
Like, why are you, likefolding that thing that way?
Why are like whatever it might be areyou checking your answers for several
(33:40):
minutes and the kid is like, oh,this is what my mom taught me to do.
So it's like children can be taught.
Unhealthy patterns.
Children can be taught disorders aswell un unwittingly of course, like
no parent wants to their child to.
Inherit something like that.
(34:01):
But that is very, like, it can be verybehaviorally and emotionally patterned
to the next generation until there'ssomething that intervenes and says
like, oh wait, no that's not, healthy.
That is not, that doesn'tfeel good or right.
And that is taking away my peace.
It's taking away my joy to do that.
I need to do something differently.
(34:23):
So.
It is it's, nature and nurture is,is the answer in my experience.
And, yeah.
So it manifests in, multiple ways.
And I'm sitting here.
I'm like, there's so much to say.
There's so much more.
But yes, please.
(34:44):
I'll, pause for a moment.
What are your thoughts?
Abhra (34:46):
No, thank you for that.
And the, this is something me and mybrother, we often talk about, like there
was a period when we were, I think we wereboth struggling in our own world, so I
moved to Australia and he moved to Europe.
Sir. Growing up in the same house and nowthere are three continents between us.
(35:07):
And then we were struggling to findour ground wherever we were, and
then it was stressful, and thenfamilies and things like that.
And then we, both of us startedjournaling, writing down
something we are feeling andthen trying to understand what.
Might have caused us we arefeeling bad about something,
(35:28):
what might have caused us.
And we were very introspective about it.
And then we realized that some ofthis is not just us, it's coming
from our family, coming from morethan one generations, which is why.
We became curious about this andobjective about it, like oh, there,
then if this is it, then we haveseen patterns of it, or we have seen
(35:52):
traces of our, emotional inheritance,let's say through generations.
How we look at it.
And then we, it is possible once youknow that this is what it is possible
to, retell that story rewire yourmind to perceive in different ways.
(36:12):
But it is a lot of work.
It's a lot of, I, I have seenpeople go through with their life
with without understanding this.
And then in that process they getbitter and upset and frustrated.
But there are ways to nurture andchange that sort of narrative now.
(36:34):
We, talked about a little bit about thefirst part of what we were we had in
mind generational trauma or perfectionismand this conditioning, et cetera.
And then I think there are some piecesof it is, it, defines who we are.
So our self-awareness and.
(36:55):
Every day I see so many people beit at work, be it in the family,
be it in the friends, et cetera.
That self-awareness is something peoplestruggle with and they have not started
their work on understanding themselves.
And this gets particularly difficultin, in, the scenario that we are
(37:21):
talking about in light of generationaltrauma, in light of migration, in
light of getting accepted, in lightof changing, sort of relationship,
commitments and things like that.
We have a changing doyou want to take a break?
Patty (37:46):
No, I'm okay.
I am, I have my matchahere, so it's nice and warm.
Abhra (37:51):
Yes.
So I was saying thatthere are a lot of areas
That we,
these factors contribute toourself to understanding ourselves.
Okay?
And this is where what Iwanted to hear from you, and I
(38:14):
think we had some interestingdiscussions about relationships.
That, how do relationshipswork in such and such dynamics?
But the gen roles have evolved, thesociety has evolved, and because of
these factors, our self-awareness is.
Not properly built, but if it isbuilt, then we should be in harmony
(38:38):
with whatever change the rules are.
So this is something I want to hearfrom you in, light of what we are
discussing, that how do you seeself-awareness get affected and
what can we do to improve that?
Patty (38:56):
This is such an important part of, trauma, especially generational trauma.
And that intersection of trauma andimmigration because so much of it has to
do with identity and the missed that themissed opportunity that many people get
where they're, most of us, experiencesome level of trauma for our life.
(39:20):
We've experienced some level of trauma,but when there's generational trauma.
Generation after generation, thesepatterns are more and more normalized.
And so to see beyond thatcan be very difficult.
That insight that comes from maybe havinglike, oh, the opportunity to have other
healthy people in the family, like.
(39:40):
That may not be accessible to anindividual, and so their self-awareness
is really, it's blocked and they'rejust trying to survive from the trauma.
They're, even if they don't know it atthe time, like, oh this is, generational
trauma and I'm just trying to survive thisunhealthy pattern that's coming from all
(40:02):
of the negative messages from my family.
Maybe the criticism, maybethe, pressures to be.
A certain way, and to have a certaincareer, to have a certain partner, to
have certain income, all these things,like all of those pressures that are
placed on, people might just be seen aslike, oh, that's just how my parents are.
(40:23):
They're just very strict andthis is how they perceive,
this is how they perceive life should be.
But unfortunately, in doingall this, without having the
freedom to really understand whoa person is within themselves.
The, lack of opportunity toself-reflect, to understand like,
(40:43):
oh, I really connect with art.
I really connect with singing, with visualart with, writing with, this career, or
with, or, I wanna explore other countries.
I wanna explore like learning how to docalligraphy, whatever it might be, right?
Like just these intrinsicdesires we have to connect.
(41:05):
It's like those like.
What I call like small, big things, right?
They're, they might appear to be small,but they're such defining things about
a person to say like, oh, I'm a writer.
Now, if that's not nurtured, whena person is young and there are all
these, prescribed ways of living.
(41:27):
That's very dissonant to what theperson wants out of their life, but
they're living for somebody else.
They're living through a trauma-basedenvironment, and so they don't
get to explore these things.
They don't get to explore the fact that.
There's this external force outsideof them that is blocking their ability
(41:48):
to get to know themselves better, togiving them the emotional space and the
freedom to say honey, what do you like?
Like, what would you like to do today?
Or like what do you find to be fun?
It's like, no, like that's not my parentsthey, did the best that they could.
Most definitely.
(42:09):
But for, I was like, oh, Iwanna play tennis in school.
And they're like no, you don't.
You don't play tennis.
That's a waste.
You have to you have touse that time to study.
Or I was like, oh, I wannawrite, I wanna take this.
Like I wanna go to this writing thing.
Afterwards, they're like no,Writing is for the philosophers.
Like, you don't need that.
You're gonna be a doctor.
You have to study math andscience, and that's it.
(42:29):
And it's like, it seemslike a small thing like.
Like, okay, they want me to be a certaincareer, and many par parents are that way.
However, it's like when a child doesn'tget to explore the things that they
just intrinsically love, and they'retelling their parent this, and their
parent is like, ah that's crazy.
You can't do that.
(42:50):
It's like that's, that child is startingto shut parts of themselves down.
That child is not hearingtheir own voice any longer and.
It becomes convoluted.
Like what?
What do I wanna do?
Like what is my voice versus the voice ofother people who are putting on tremendous
pressure for me to do all of these things?
(43:10):
So then by the time people come tosee me, they're telling me about a
scenario in which they made a decision,and I'm like, do you think that
decision was based on what you wanted?
Or what your mother wanted, or yourfather, or your grandparent or your
uncles, your aunties the church,the mosque, the whatever, right?
(43:33):
Like, and they're like, oh, Inever thought about it that way.
I thought it was something I didn'twant, but I actually, I really
would like to do this other thing,and pulling that apart, like.
Those voices almost become one.
Because a child, even an adultchild is still trying to please
(43:53):
their parents, is still trying to.
Figure out whether like what theirparents want is the ultimate right thing.
Like and sometimes when really get intoa child's mind and say like, oh, you're
only going to succeed if you are thisparticular career making this amount of
(44:14):
money and have these many kids and a.
Husband or a wife that like doesthis type of job and you're living
in this state, in this town andyou're part of this community and
like everything is so prescribed.
And so like where does that child,whether they're a child or an adult
(44:35):
child, where do they have the space to.
Search for identity, for whatintrinsically feels right
and good, and brings them joyand brings them peace, right?
So that is the conundrum with trauma.
Abhra (44:52):
The, and this is such an important topic as well.
I think that we can go on andon about this, like we can
explore this in, many levels.
But we, for our discussion today, Ithink we have used up most part of our.
Time today.
(45:12):
And this is something I would love torevisit and talk in length with you.
And I just would like to take thisopportunity to tell our viewers for
joining for this discussion that if youcould share your thoughts, your queries,
and let us know that it would give us.
(45:34):
Some opportunity to comeback with a future episode.
So I would definitely loveto explore that because it
doesn't conclude the discussion.
It gives us that avenue thatthere are more things to explore.
But we have talked about so many importantthings in our discussion today, but you
(45:56):
are also a writer and you have published,and I wanted to hear about your books,
and if we could tell our listenerswhere they can find them we will put
the links in our episode descriptionso that they can, so would you like
to tell us about your books please?
Patty (46:15):
Sure.
Yes, I have I have one.
I have one I have one book that is abook of essays that talks about the
kaleidoscope of identities that weexperience as immigrants immigrant.
I talk about womanhood frommy personal experiences.
And then I also talk about justthe experience of immigrants.
(46:37):
Just doing everyday life and like ourliving side by side with people of other
cultures and like what that experience is.
So that you can find on www.pjtemple.com.
And then I have a memoir that, itis currently under representation by
(47:01):
Sarah Jane Freeman Literary Agency.
And so hopefully that'll becoming out in the next few months.
And then I also created a journalfor Calm called Breathe and Release
that's on the website as well.
But so I'll just talk about trauma.
And patients are like,okay, so what do I do?
And I'm like, so I, talk a lot about intreatment, about mind and body work and
(47:24):
how our bodies hold trauma, even if ourminds are not sure of what's happening.
And don't even sometimes rememberour trauma because our mind to
protect us tries to suppress or even.
Cause us to repress andforget some of those things.
And so I created a journal calledBreathe and Release that is a one year
journal where each month the writeris focusing on one particular aspect
(47:50):
of mind body work in order to decreaseanxiety and to start developing a
lifetime of a lifestyle of calm.
Which is very possible.
I tell people it is very possible to.
Understand and address anxiety and,but it's, only done effectively through
(48:10):
engaging both the mind and body.
So that's what that journal does, isit's a guided journal to learn principles
like breath work, self-compassionobservation, just this sense of radical
acceptance of like where we are.
In the moment.
So a lot of mindfulness as well.
So, so yeah, that's where I live.
(48:31):
Pj temple.com.
Abhra (48:33):
That's amazing and we will love to know more about that.
The, I think this was more of anintroduction and we touched upon some
of the areas that we wanted to, butagain, this is such a complex subject.
I would love to have you back on thediscussion and again, so for our viewers
(48:56):
feel free to share your questions, whetherin this episode or to Patty or to me
in social media or in threads and it'llgive us some more direction as to what
we should explore in a future discussion.
Thank you once again, Patty forjoining us, sharing such beautiful
thoughts, with the listeners today.
Patty (49:18):
Oh, thank you.
Thank you so much for just, yeah, likeI said the, discourse that we've had
is it's very what I I'll say it again.
What I really appreciated aboutyour sharing was I was so honest.
It was so raw, and we need tohear people's stories so that we
know that we're not alone and.
(49:38):
So, yeah, I really, enjoyed being on,and yes, we have, we did a, I don't
know, thinking about wine flights.
I guess we did like a flightof various topics related to
this, which was wonderful.
But yes, I'd be happy to continuethe conversation with you.
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