April 4, 2025 • 58 mins
In this episode of Stories and Stanza, host Abhra sits down with Carolina Bakker, the Rat Race recovery coach, to discuss the impacts of workplace trauma, burnout, and how to reclaim control over your professional life. The conversation delves into the concept of 'Fail With Me', strategies for setting boundaries, and methods of mindfulness and community for overcoming repetitive negative cycles. Carolina shares her personal experiences in toxic work environments and valuable insights on healing and moving forward. Tune in for an empowering discussion on transforming workplace struggles into personal growth and resilience.
00:00 Introduction to Workplace Wellness
02:43 Meet Carolina Bucker: The Rat Race Recovery Coach
03:33 The Birth of 'Fail With Me'
06:01 Carolina's Personal Journey Through Corporate Struggles
08:55 Understanding Workplace Trauma and Taking Back Power
23:22 Strategies for Handling Workplace Fear and Pressure
37:27 Healing from Past Workplace Trauma
49:09 Breaking the Cycle of Burnout and Addiction
57:10 Conclusion and How to Connect with Carolina
Carolina helps people break free from the stress and burnout of toxic work environments. She knows that leaving a job isn’t enough - many people still feel trapped in fear, self-doubt, and exhaustion long after they quit. They left physically, but mentally, emotionally and spiritually they are still connected.
Through her coaching, she helps her clients stop this cycle, heal deeply and find clarity for the road ahead. Her approach is holistic, empowering, and solution-oriented. She combines her spiritual abilities with down-to-earth practical tools to help her clients to make real, lasting change towards balance, joy, and real success - on their own terms.
Connect with Carolina:
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@Rat_Race_Recovery?sub_confirmation=1
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carolinabakker/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rat_race_recovery
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CoachingByCarolinaBakker
A gift for your audience:
90 days access to my Imposter Syndrome Success Kit! hppts://courses.coachingbycarolina.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Carolina (00:08):
I love the title and I love it mostly because in it is a, is the
idea that if you can find what you thinkyou did in a situation, you can also
find the empowerment to get out, right?
(00:29):
You come into this company and thefirst thing that happens, of course
is that a company, when you havean interview, they tell you, let's
see if you fit into our culture.
And I think that's in essence is alreadysomething to where you start twisting
(00:50):
and turning away and putting a little bitof your heart and a little bit of your
future in the hands of somebody else.
I know firsthand how the workplace canreally have a negative effect on your
life, on your friends, on your family.
(01:10):
When you look at people that are leaders,people that are truly going to be
great in this life -they lift you up.
They don't push you down.
Abhra (01:26):
Life flows like an endless ocean of stories.
We often miss these precious talesas we rush through our days, too
consumed by daily struggles tonotice the poetry swirling around us.
Yet within these stories lie the keysto our past, sparks for our creativity,
(01:46):
and fresh wings to fill our sails.
I'm Abhra, a writer based inMelbourne in quest of those stories
with diverse voices that tell themfrom every corner of the world.
Welcome to Stories and Stanza.
Hi Carolina.
Welcome to Stories and Stanza.
How are you doing today?
Carolina (02:07):
Good morning.
Well, good evening for you, thank youso much for having me on your podcast
Abhra (02:13):
I'm looking forward to hearing from you and Yes, I had a nice day.
We on different ends of the same day.
Carolina (02:22):
Different ends of the world actually.
You were all the way to Australiaand I'm all the way in Portugal.
Abhra (02:29):
Yes.
I am looking forward to hearing from you.
We are going to talk aboutsomething very important topic
in today's professional world.
For our audience, could youbriefly introduce yourself?
Carolina (02:42):
Yes, of course.
So I am Carolina Bucker.
I'm the Rat Race recovery coach and Isupport people that are either in or
have left a toxic workplace environment.
I support companies in improvingtheir workplace wellness so that their
employees feel safe and supportedand able to express themselves.
(03:07):
Of course, that leads to people wantingto stay and wanting to come to work
in the morning and that ultimatelyleads to much better results.
so yes, that's in that capacity as whyI'm here as a coach for all these groups
and mostly around workplace wellness.
Abhra (03:31):
Wonderful.
This particular segment inthe podcast, Fail With Me.
I wanted to create a supportive spacewhere we look into our failures and remove
the stigma from failure and understand.
So when I had a difficult phasemyself, I thought about writing and
(03:54):
decided to call it Fail With Me.
That is how this series got started.
Gradually, as more and more guestsjoined, they enriched this whole
idea of fail with me, with theirexperience, their expertise and wisdom.
So in this particular context ofworkplace trauma, sometimes when we
(04:16):
have a negative or abusive experiencein workplace, then we may consider that
as a failure of our professional growth.
So that is how I associate the topictowards this theme in this podcast, and
the first thing I would like to hearfrom you is how does the idea 'Fail
(04:36):
with me' sit with you and if thereis anything you want to talk about it
based on your experience and expertise.
Carolina (04:45):
Yes.
Well, so fail with me.
I love the title and I love it mostlybecause in it is a, is the idea that
if you can find what you think youdid in a situation, you can also find
(05:07):
the empowerment to get out, right?
If you can take responsibility,which by the way, I translate
as the ability to respond.
If you can take that responsibility,you can take back your power.
So in seeing a failure, and I thinkhonestly in workplace trauma and
(05:31):
in all those situations, there'sa lot that being done to us.
Right?
And especially if you are stuck in acertain situation, that is just, I mean,
then where do you find your way out?
And by looking at it from a, whatcan I do about this situation?
(05:56):
You take that back andyou take back that power.
you asked me what is my, a littlebit of my personal story with that.
So I was in corporatepositions for a very long time.
I was basically a nineto five ladder climber.
Right.
(06:16):
I started, immediately, well evenwhen I was still in university.
I started working for this companyand all these companies had this
this underlying, unspoken rules thatyou come in, you're new to working
and to the markets, let's say.
(06:37):
You come into this company and thefirst thing that happens, of course
is that a company, when you havean interview, they tell you, let's
see if you fit into our culture.
And I think that's in, in essence,is already something to where you
start twisting and turning away andputting a little bit of your heart
(07:03):
and a little bit of your futurein the hands of somebody else.
Because what happens is, at thatmoment, for me, they said, well,
let's see if you fit into our culture.
And so what happened is,I really wanted that job.
It was my first job and so,ooh, I really want this.
So what happens is that you willturn a little bit to fit in, right?
(07:28):
And in the companies where I work for,fitting in meant working extremely
hard and making such long hours.
And then after the, we were finishedworking, sitting down with the people,
your colleagues, your coworkers.
To talk about the workday.
(07:50):
So basically I was there from eighto'clock in the morning until, I don't
know, nine o'clock at night and whichis, which didn't leave much time.
Sometimes on weekends as well by then,which didn't leave time for any health.
(08:11):
Health things like going to the gymor cooking my own meals or and that,
with that eating healthy, it didn'tleave time for any rest and, recovery.
And so my career started out like that.
And I found that throughout all thechanges that I made, and no matter which
(08:33):
company I went to, and especially Iwent into the larger corporate companies
and I started climbing the ladderthere, that expectation and that working
hard and working immense hours, thatonly got worse and worse and worse.
(08:55):
So I know firsthand how the workplacecan really have a negative effect on your
life, on your friends, on your family.
My workplace had ca because I was barelyseeing them and how it can have a negative
effect on self-care and on your mind.
(09:19):
So this, when I walked my path,let's say, and funny enough.
I started coaching people very earlyon in my career, and I always say
the painter's house is never paintedwell, sort of, because when you come
home and you help everybody else, youdon't feel like doing your own stuff.
(09:42):
Funny enough, I was already giving otherpeople all these tools to work through
their stress and work through theiranxiety, and especially work through
their imposter syndrome, and then toset boundaries so that the workplace
wouldn't feel so overwhelming for them.
(10:04):
And I didn't apply any of those toolsto myself, until I got to a turning
point where I was so burned outand so exhausted that let's say the
workplace where I gave my all, thatcouldn't even energize me anymore.
So everything around mewas already less and less.
(10:29):
And then that one place, where I put allmy energy in, that place basically was
crumbling and there was one very specificday, and one very specific example.
So I had been which I believe isalso a part of a way that a workplace
can suck you in, and, can give youthis, I call it a rat race, right?
(10:54):
Or, a donkey with a carrot, you'rebeing shown a carrot and it's being
held in front of you, and you keepon walking towards that carrot, all
the time, not realizing that it's ona stick that's tied to your own back.
So you never really come closer.
The rat race, basically, you go forsomething, but you never come closer.
(11:18):
And so I had that feeling.
I was growing and growing, but at somepoint my growth stopped and for a couple
of years it stopped in the company.
Not my personal growth, ofcourse, but in the company.
I was working really hard for thispromotion and for, I was working really
hard on a project that they said, if youcomplete this wonderful project and it's,
(11:43):
it has high visibility, and then you willfinally be seen by the people that need
to make a decision about your promotion.
So continue and do that project.
Then one day I was already up to here.
I worked like relentlessly like 80, 90hours a week for three weeks in a row.
(12:04):
I was exhausted, my eyes were here.
And it was quite funny, actually.
It was, if I look at a picture of myselffrom that moment, you can see the blue.
There was no makeup thatcould cover that up anymore.
And but that particular dayI. I came to the office and
(12:24):
this was a big turning point.
I came to the office and like I said,the office was basically ruling my
life and determining what I would doin a day, how I would feel in a day
how I, how my emotional state wouldbe, how my physical state would be.
It.
It was determining everything.
(12:45):
My work was determining everything,and I came to the office and this
major project that I hung all my hopesand dreams on to get that next step.
It got canceled or postponed indefinitely.
And so that for me was like, it wasdevastating because I needed that
(13:09):
visibility for my next step and.
So I, you know, I started, andthis is where I started failing.
I started thinking howdid, where did I go wrong?
How could I have prevented this?
And my mind went into overdrive andI was, I literally, I was devastated.
(13:31):
And then on that same day, I had thisthis meeting for another project, and
there were these stakeholders and theywere all saying, ah, we want dates
and we want this, and we want that.
And I gave them all these, I wasso tired, and I gave them all these
commitments that I knew, but Ijust couldn't set my boundaries.
(13:53):
I was so tired that I just,I couldn't set my boundaries.
I couldn't say no.
And then when I did say no, theypressured me a little bit more.
And at some point I just gave up.
And so that pressure and that,those expectations, I just, I
just decided, you know what?
I'll figure it out laterbecause I just didn't have the
(14:15):
willpower anymore to say no.
And then on that same day someother little things happen here
and there, other project that gotdelayed and a friend of mine saying,
Hey, I haven't seen you in forever.
And I couldn't find a assaultin my calendar to meet with her.
Which also made me feellike a failure, right?
(14:37):
Things in my private lifestarted crumbling as well.
And that was somehow because ofcourse, all the setbacks and then
that meeting and then my friend thatit all just, it weighed so heavy
on me and I felt that pressure.
And then at the end of the day, of courseof course at the end of the day my manager
(15:01):
called me into his office and I. He, hetold me, listen that promotion that we,
you have been working so hard for it's,I'm afraid it's not going to happen.
And they turned around somethingin the organization and
it's it's not gonna happen.
And he sat it in a very matter of factway, and he knew how invested I was.
(15:25):
But he said it in such a matterof fact way, like, no emotion.
No.
Are you okay?
And so I felt like at that moment, I itwas like, okay, I've been working like
two and a half years to get to that point.
And then he said somethingthat today I still think is not
(15:47):
really how it's supposed to be.
He said, well, but you know what?
For that type of position.
You really need to be a little bitmore politically sophisticated.
And by the way, you're way toogood at what you do here, so
nobody really wants you to move.
(16:09):
And that was like, it just, that broke me.
I walked out of his office like almostin tears, but trying to hold it of
course, because, if somebody is so,matter of fact you don't wanna express
your emotions in front of them.
And I walked out of that officeand I thought to myself, I didn't
(16:30):
even think I was just numb.
I just shut down.
And I went through that.
I stayed in the office because I honestly,I didn't know what to do with myself.
I was so, I, there's so, so I. Therewas just something in me that I was so
disconnected from myself and from myfeelings and from what just happened.
(16:55):
I was just flabbergasted.
It was like, and it was like the strawthat broke the camel's back, and I
stayed into the office and it wasalready the end of the day when I had
that conversation with my manager.
And I waited basically untileverybody else went home.
(17:16):
And then I went to the empty parking lotbecause I was the last one out again.
And I sat into my car and I just lost it.
I broke down in tears and I sobbeduncontrollably, and I sat there for,
I think it must have been like anhour, just crying my eyes out, and I
(17:42):
went home and I all the way driving.
And of course, because I'm at theend of the day, it was almost, it
was so, it was almost hilarious.
But I forgot to put gas in my car.
And because I was in sucha state, I didn't realize
that the light was blinking.
(18:04):
I didn't even notice.
And so about eight, 10 minute walkfrom home, my car stopped and it didn't
have more gasoline just stopped andI had to walk the last bit home on
heels this high, so not the favoritething to do, I can tell you for a lady.
(18:25):
And so I got my stuff out of thecar and I walked home and on my
way home, and this was reallymy turning point on my way home.
I had to cross train tracks.
And so, I walked, and when I was on thetrain tracks I looked down, and for a
second, just for a second, I felt tomyself, what if I just sat down here?
(18:55):
It would be so easy a train wouldcome and everything would be over,
and then I snapped out of it becausea train actually did come and it
was like bling bling, bling bling.
Everything started to move, toindicate that I was a train.
And so I snapped out of it and I walked.
I walked ahead, but stepping off that,I turned around to look at the train
(19:20):
passing, and I thought that's too much.
That's what, what did.
I just think that thoughtgoing through my head.
Seriously, am I giving up?
What am I giving up for my work?
What am I and what and that'swhen I started asking myself,
(19:44):
because I've been asking myselfall these questions the entire day.
What did I do wrong?
What could I have done better?
I screwed up the project.
Somehow I could have preventedit from being canceled.
There was no way I could haveprevented it from being canceled
because it was a legislation change.
So no matter what I would'vedone, there was no way, but I
(20:05):
blamed myself for it anyway.
Then with the meeting ofthe where I got pressured.
Where I felt pressured and I said,all these, gave all these commitments.
Why did I give those commitments?
I'm such an idiot.
Nobody is ever gonna taketheir commitment back.
They're gonna pressure me.
I'm gonna have to work for 80 hoursa week in the next coming weeks,
(20:28):
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
All these thoughts going through my head.
And then of course, with my friends,oh, I'm letting my friends down.
I'm such a bad friend.
Which then went into, I'm sucha bad person I never get to do.
And then I went, oh, victimhood on myself.
I never get to do what I like.
I why don't I have time for this?
(20:49):
Why don't I have a time for that?
Why don't I have time for this?
And then of course, with mymanager telling me that I went into
blaming him and blaming myself.
I didn't I didn't work hard enoughon being politically correct.
Why did I always use thewrong words to express myself?
Why didn't I make more connectionswith the people that mattered?
(21:12):
Why did I, and so those thoughtsall were in my head right when
I stepped out of that car.
And I, when I look back at thattrain passing, I thought, what
the hell am I doing to myself?
And all of a sudden, all that, allof it, it just fell into place.
(21:35):
Like there has to be a waythat I can take my power back.
And so there has to be away that I can stop myself.
From feeling this anxious distress fromgoing over my boundaries all the time,
and from letting people influence melike that there has to be a way that
(22:02):
I can take control, that I can somehowbuild a boundary, that I can somehow
protect my energy, that I can protectmy time, that I can protect, there has
some, there has to be something I can do.
And of course then I also, looked at mycolleagues and some of them were stressed.
(22:26):
I saw that, but they seemed tobe doing all this stuff so easy.
And so it was quite a journeyfrom that moment to, deal with all
that workplace pressure, becausemind you, this was a workplace.
Where the pressure was really high.
(22:47):
So it was it was not a place of wellness.
There was, there were so many thingsthere that were that were unfair, that
were that were simply not the way thata workplace is supposed to be, that
(23:07):
we're unsafe, that we're, it was just,it was a constant hit on, on, on you.
But I did decide to take my power back.
Sorry.
I've been talking a lot.
Abhra (23:22):
Thank you for sharing your journey and as, someone who has worked
in the technology domain for last twodecades, I can totally relate to the
situations you are referring to here.
Carolina (23:42):
Is there a personal story that you have that you could share?
Abhra (23:45):
I have many personal stories that I can, talk about and I am curious to
hear from you as to how to handle such,scenarios when they happen in a workplace.
When you join a new workplace andyou are told, are you a cultural
(24:08):
fit for that organization?
And just to get accepted, we accomodate,it starts with little bits, and then
it gets stronger and stronger andstronger without us noticing that
it is creating a pressure on us.
(24:29):
It is eating us, our confidenceand things like that.
I wanted to mention three, four sortof scenarios that I have come across.
The most common one is fear tactic.
So when you join somewhere, you areusually new, and then you are trying to
(24:56):
accommodate yourself in the environment.
Then people try to scareyou, oh, you cannot do this.
You are not suitable for this.
You're not good enough.
That sort of fear.
You are not, you don'thave a career here, okay?
You're doing the whole thing wrongand saying things like you don't
(25:16):
have the credibility to deliver.
Is one, one, angle to look at it.
Carolina (25:23):
Do you want me to respond to that first before
you go into the next one.
So first thing is that you, youhave to, and I know that's difficult
when you're in a situation, but youhave to remember it's, them not you.
Once, when you look at people that areleaders, people that are truly going to
(25:46):
be great in this life -they lift you up.
They don't push you down.
So understand that it's them, not you.
And whatever is going on in their world,it can be because of old habits, or
(26:07):
it can be because they are bullied.
It can be because they're very hurt.
There's there, but it's them not you.
Because if you have a true leader and ora true peer, or it's somebody that's good
at what they do, they will lift you up.
Nobody will ever push you downif they are a true leader.
(26:33):
So that's the mostimportant thing to remember.
And it's a very fear is very subtle.
Right?
And we get, if people say these thingsto us, that's really workplace trauma.
Also, don't underestimate howmuch trauma that actually is.
(26:54):
Don't say to yourself, well, I am, I.
It's me.
I am just sensitive because a lotof these things we get told, right?
Ah, don't be sensitive.
Even when we take them home when wetalk to our family and our friends
that are not in the situation at thatmoment and do not hear the person say
(27:17):
those words to you like, you're notgood enough, or You're you have to,
you, you're not skilled enough or you'renot, you don't have enough knowledge or
you're not social enough, or whateverthey say, you're not enough of.
When you bring that home out of lovefor you, your family and your friends
will try to make you feel better.
(27:39):
And how do they make you feel better Bysaying, ah, I'm sure it'll pass, or I'm
sure you will, he, it will get better.
Or maybe you can find another job.
It's not that easy.
I know it's from, it comes from a placeof loving you, but it feels like you're
very alone in that as well, right?
(28:03):
But most important thing, rememberit's not you and acknowledge what is
done to you and acknowledge that notin a way like they need to change.
Because a person, when they are inthat same state, right, in that same
company, and they treat you like that,they are in a certain pattern as well.
(28:30):
And when you look at how you can influencethings, there is always a circle of
things that you cannot influence.
Then there's a circle of things that youcan try to influence and then you, there's
a circle of things that you can control.
And within the circle of control, theonly person that's in there is you.
(28:53):
The only thing you canreally control is you.
And so the thoughts that are goingthrough your head, if you look at fear
are for example, what if they are right
and what if what if they fire me?
'cause I do not have enough knowledge.
(29:16):
What if I won't pass thatexam that they want me to do?
What if I don't pass this?
How do you call that, thatthing they do every year to
indicate that you are socially.
Like
Abhra (29:29):
appraisals and stuff.
Yeah,
Carolina (29:32):
exactly.
Appraisals, yeah.
Feedback loops, all things.
And so that's, you are startingto anticipate things that
will happen in the future.
And your fear comes fromanticipating things in the future.
What if, and so with fear,and it's very real, huh?
(29:55):
Don't get me wrong.
These types of things are very real.
But when you are in fear, you arein a survival part of the brain.
And you are by definition, not creative,not open, not you won't see possibilities.
(30:15):
And so for you, what can, if you arein fear, what you can do about that
is make sure you get out of that.
Flight or fight or or freeze mode thatyou are in and or form, which means
that you are trying to please somebody.
(30:35):
So get yourself out of thatfear state as best as you can.
Now, how do you do that?
It can be very simple.
It can be as simple as andthat it's simple but not easy.
Let me put it like that.
It can be as simple as takingthree deep breaths or focusing
(30:57):
on a physical sensation.
So like rubbing your fingers over yourhand with your full concentration that
takes you out of the survival brainand puts you into that creative brain.
And from that creative brain,you can start to see solutions.
You also, from that creativebrain, you are proactive.
(31:21):
So you can take charge insteadof being reactive and responding.
This is the part that makes you think,oh, how can I how do I want to respond?
What is the best way to respond?
So in, in case of fear from thisbreak, we will start from the
(31:42):
fight or flight or freeze or form.
We will start to say for example,in form, oh yes, of course
I will do that immediately.
Of course.
And well, in this place, the momentyou you are here, you'll say, well, I
think that your response towards me orthe words towards me are inappropriate.
(32:09):
Which will, which from afair perspective, sounds.
Like, I could never ever say thatyet, when you are calm and when you
are in the part of the brain that iscreative, the words come out very easily.
So it then it all comes down tomindfulness and being present and stopping
(32:39):
your brain from going into that futureand thinking the worst case scenarios and
letting it go into the future, thinkingof the best case scenarios and forcing
it to think of the best case scenario.
Right.
Abhra (32:56):
Absolutely.
That's the part.
Absolutely totally understand that.
And I can tell you that it, itdefinitely makes a big difference.
I. The other pointers that I have in mind.
You actually have answered that already.
I mean, what you said, it kindof as a thumb rule, we can apply
(33:18):
to, other situations as well.
It is basically being present inthat moment and not getting into
the fear or anxious or insecurepart of the mind and controlling the
emotions, getting the better of usthe building of emotional intelligence
(33:42):
and, understanding that boundary.
What I feel, that these traumas, theystart because one is our self-awareness
or our emotional intelligence.
It's not truly built in that momentor not functional in that moment,
(34:07):
and the boundary management in a waythat something unpleasant happens
before it starts affecting us.
We, before we get sucked intothat negativity, we can stop that
and we can control that whateveris happening from affecting us.
(34:31):
If I look back at my career now, theseare the things I try to tell my past self
so that I can do better in, in future.
And I think that it's, again I'll goback to the beginning of our discussion,
is that accommodating ourselves into.
Getting accepted into the organizationalculture, somehow that is rooted in
(34:59):
the need of approval, that you needsomeone's approval to get accepted.
Whereas, again, what you mentioned,that there are these three circles that
one you cannot influence, one you caninfluence, and one you can truly control.
If that is there with me from day one,I don't think no amount of abuse or
(35:22):
harm or humiliation can affect us.
So thank you for explainingthat so beautifully.
I think you answered thestrategies so perfectly.
You explained it so beautifully.
The other things that I had in mindwas on the similar lines as in say I
(35:43):
am not feeling confident or secure.
I'm in a group of people and thenI'm insulted all of a sudden, and
then no one is speaking up for that.
I feel that is affecting me, but.
I guess, the three layers that youmentioned, what we control and influence,
(36:05):
we can apply the same thinking insuch situations and we can come out
of it without, letting it affect us.
So, yes.
Yeah.
Thank you for that.
I'll go to something elserelated to my experience.
I have seen these kind of scenarioshave a long lasting effect on people.
(36:32):
As in, you mentioned thatdo not undermine the trauma.
Absolutely.
I'm not trying to undermine that.
What I'm trying to bring up isit stays with people, even if
they have left that workplace.
Something toxic happened with me and I amstill carrying it in the next workplace.
It's like a relationship that didn'twork and then you move on to the
(36:56):
next, but still you are carryingthe fragments or the broken pieces
with yourself to the next one.
You talked about it in the beginning,that, we should always forward think
that how we can change the perspectivein future, if someone who's struggling
with past workplace trauma, thenhow do they move on from there?
(37:21):
Or how do they heal fromthere or get over it.
Carolina (37:27):
Thank you for that question.
Beautiful question.
So this so there's several things.
What the way we get into itand the way we get out of it.
So when we, of course, when we physicallyleave something, it doesn't mean that
we are also emotionally and mentallyhave left the situation, right?
(37:49):
We need to realize that it's a triangle.
There's three components in actually four.
I believe that spiritually there issomething that is still attached as well.
And so on those pillars whenyou truly want to leave a
situation behind so first just.
(38:11):
Getting into that, and that's why Isaid, don't diminish your experience
and don't diminish your trauma.
It's because the, do you know the storyof the frog and the boiling water?
It's like if you get a frog, like anormal frog and please do not try this.
Do not the poor animal, do not try this.
(38:34):
But if you get a frog and you havea pot of boiling water and you throw
the frog in the boiling water, thefrog jumps out because it's, it
feels the water and it's a shock.
And so it jumps out.
Now, you would think that it would alsodo that when the water gets hot enough.
But if you put a frog in cold water andyou slowly start to heat up that water
(39:00):
until boiling point, it will boil to deathbecause it will not jump out of the water.
Now, this is how this traumabuilds up over the years.
As a person, you are the frog in the waterand your environment is slowly adding a
(39:20):
little bit more pressure, another littlebit of pressure, just like the heats of
the frog, another little bit of pressure.
And slowly you start to getused to that toxicity, right?
And that trauma coming at you.
That doesn't mean that it's normal.
That does not mean that when youhave reached the boiling point that
(39:45):
you ha somehow are to blame for theperson that put you in the pulse.
You are slowly getting used to thepressure until your system, your
body, your mind your emotional.
State and your spiritscan no longer handle it.
(40:06):
And that's the boiling point.
And so recognizing that boilingpoint is very important.
And knowing that you have had thatboiling point, it's like an egg, right?
Once you cook it, you cannot unco it.
And so you have for, its for, well an eggwill never uncook, but the thing is you
(40:29):
have reached that point and then you left.
But in you is still all that buildingup of the stress and building up
of everything now, getting outof that, across the four pillars.
So you physically left and you arenow working at a different place.
(40:49):
So, mentally, I think the way to get.
So if you look at the four pillars,we have spiritual, emotional,
and mental left, right mentally.
It's about controlling yourthoughts controlling your thoughts
and controlling your emotions.
'cause they basically go in a loop nowbecause you think something, then you
(41:12):
feel something or you feel somethingand then you think something, right?
And that's simply theloop in which it works.
And of course, spiritually there is thisnow you're gone out of that environment.
And what can I learn?
What can I see that I takewith me from that environment
(41:36):
that is valuable to me today?
So I think for me it's,it started with that.
It started with.
Being grateful, funny enough for allthe lessons that I learned from that
(41:57):
environment, from those environments,because it wasn't just one.
And I could see, if I look backat it without judgment, I could
see that for each of thoseenvironments, I learned something.
I learned something about myself.
I learned somethingabout setting boundaries.
(42:18):
I learned something about what Iwould and would not accept in my life.
I learned new skills that I neededfor the next phase of my life.
And so if I look back at myexperience, even though the
experience itself in that momentwas something like traumatic, right?
(42:40):
Standing on those train tracks that wasfor a reason and having those thoughts,
they were traumatic and this, that,that whole, looking back at that and
looking at my life today and seeinghow that shaped me, how that forms me,
(43:02):
how that made me choose for my purposeand made me choose to support people
that are still in that situation.
Looking back at it, I can bedeeply grateful for those moments.
Now, that's tremendously hardif you're in it, but even when I
(43:25):
was in it, I was looking back atother situations saying, thanks to
those situations, I'm here today.
Today, I can say thanks to thosesituations, I'm here today.
So working on that, on aspiritual level and it's work.
It's not a, a snap and you are out of it.
(43:48):
It's work, but it's worth it becausefrom those experiences, spiritually
speaking, I truly believe that we areshaped to become who we are meant to be.
And we are, we have these experiencesbecause something or someone
or a higher power is guiding usto where we are supposed to be.
(44:13):
And that if we learn from thoseexperiences, that we can see the path
in front of us and that we can see thatwhere we came from was all needed to know
where we are going and to be good at wherewe are going and to be our best selves.
So.
For me, that's the spiritual part.
(44:35):
Then on the mental and emotional partit's really that, that mindfulness,
that controlling your thoughts, andthe only way to control your thoughts
is, like I said, to get out of thatfear based survival brain and get into
the growth brain, the creative brain.
(44:56):
And all research shows that thereare several ways you can do that.
But the absolute simplest and best wayto do that is with mindfulness and just
to, like I said, take three deep breaths.
Or if you don't, if you cannotor don't want to do that, touch
your skin or a piece of fabric.
(45:17):
Look outside and look atthe color, smell the air.
Listen to sounds, be there in the moment,or taste the first bite of your lunch
without distraction to getyou into a different loop.
And it's basically going from avicious circle where your thoughts
(45:41):
and your emotions are pulling youdown negatively into a virtuous
circle where they help each other.
Yeah.
Abhra (45:52):
It is very beautifully explained and which is why, I try to take a walk
every so often, whether it's, duringthe day or it is in the evening.
I feel that, the moment you connectwith green or something in the
nature or maybe water, it changesyour perspective differently.
(46:15):
It gives you that gratitude from insideand then you are able to let go some
of that heart that, sometimes, withtrauma as we are getting with ourselves.
I will ask you somethingrelated to burnout, and you,
me, you mentioned burnout.
Definitely.
(46:35):
And you talked about mindfulness.
What I've seen is in, within, in myfriends, in my colleagues in, in, and
a lot of people who are in leaving thiscorporate life, that they have this
stress, they have this burnout, they havethis poor emotional intelligence, let's
(46:57):
call it that, and instead of interruptingthat cycle and coming out of it, they are
compensating that with something else.
Could be eating, could be booze,could be binge watching something.
(47:19):
It could be anything.
I mean, instead of turning thingsaround, we are holding onto.
That hurt that trauma.
And we are repeating that cycle.
So basically we arecoping from time to time.
So we are not doing ourselves any favor.
(47:39):
We are not stopping that,and we are not moving on.
Instead, we are repeating thesame thing again and again.
And I'll mention this, whyI am, I'm bringing this up.
So I am a hobbyist writer, so Ihave written to poetry collections
and for the longest time I usedto think that I have to channel my
(48:03):
suffering, my pain into the creativity.
Okay?
I didn't think about healing ordidn't think that an alternative of
the pain or frustration was possible.
I thought that I after channelthat into writing, but.
(48:25):
Recently about a year ago I've hadattended a somatic workshop and
where we talked about mindfulness,it did a few interesting exercises
and that changed my perspectivetowards everything very differently.
And now I see that if I am writing,I'm writing from an inspiration,
I'm not writing from heart or pain.
(48:46):
Okay.
I mentioned my writing into this processbecause I think that if I go back a
couple of years, so it is no differentthan getting addicted to something, just
thinking that writing is the way out.
It's basically compensatingthat hard with something else.
(49:07):
So.
As a coach, if you see someonewho is stuck, who is, with burnout
with this hurt frustration, andthey're repeating the cycle, how
do, what would you suggest them?
What strategies do you give themthat, you can stop and you can
give yourself a better life?
Carolina (49:27):
So that's that's a deep question actually.
And the reason it's so deep isbecause it touches so many things.
As I'm a Tony Robbins trained coach,and so I, with people that are stuck
in repeating the same loop overand over again, I use his methods.
So, his, one of his methods is thatthere are six human needs and he has has
(49:55):
a model to measure the six human needs.
And so.
Each person has a differentconfiguration of those human needs.
Now, if you have a behavior that yourepeat over and over and over again,
even though you are trying to step outan addictive behavior or even maybe
(50:17):
it's not addictive, but you have a cyclethat you have a year that you are in
it, and then a year that you are outit, and then a year that you're in it,
it's also a type of repetition, eventhough it's not a strong addiction like
smoking or drinking or eating or working.
So what happens is that we are, we havecertain needs and when the needs are
(50:41):
met with an addiction and our highestneeds are met with an addiction, we
repeat them until we find another.
Another way to satisfy those needs.
And so the, what happens is,for example, we all have a
(51:02):
need for love and connection.
And when we score very high on that needfor love and connection we tend to love
ourselves when with, for example, food andwe soothe ourselves with food and that,
then it's very difficult to get out ofthat cycle because food basically is easy.
(51:25):
It's accessible, you can get it like this.
And so every time we feel thatwe need some self love and we
feel that we have lost connectionwith ourselves, we grab a cookie.
Now that grabbing a cookie is a way tosatisfy the need for love and connection.
(51:48):
In this case with ourselves,but there's other ways that you
could satisfy that same need.
Now, of course, it that grabbing acookie is a habit that build over time.
So you can change that habit.
You can either with willpower, you canchange it like that, or you have to
(52:08):
sort of wind it down and take one cookieinstead of three, et cetera, et cetera.
Right?
And, but the most importantthing is that you need a certain
amount of love and connection.
And so there is a, you can finda different way to satisfy that
love and connection, either, forexample, by calling a friend or
(52:32):
by sitting with yourself or bygetting a facial in my case, or by
allowing a little bit of self love.
And it's, that's.
By understanding which needs you have,you will you'll be able to figure out
(52:54):
what ways you can satisfy those needsdifferently than the than the habit
you have installed for it right now.
Also we don't change a habit or a behavioruntil, because it's in our survival
brain again, and our survival brainloves to keep everything exactly the way.
(53:22):
It's because.
We know as a your survival brain is notthere to help you be happy or to make
you thrive or to, it's there to make yoursystem, your body, survive and reproduce
so that the species can continue.
It's very biological.
(53:43):
It's a biological process, andso it's not there to help you.
The other part of the brain isthat's the part that helps you.
So it will try to keepyou exactly where you are.
Why?
Because today you are alive, and thatmeans that you have survived all those
years up to today doing what you do.
(54:08):
And so that brain says, well, no, I,and it's a strong part of us, right?
I want to keep you exactly whereyou are, because being exactly where
you are is what kept you alive.
Now if you wanna be happy, onthe other hand, you need to grow.
So you need to change, you need to takeyourself out of that comfort zone and make
(54:32):
sure that you get into into well growth.
That's growth and contribution.
Those are the morespiritual needs of a person.
And so to be happy you need those.
Now what happens inside ofyou is an inner conflict.
As we coach, you call it, it's when thispart of the brain that doesn't want change
(54:56):
starts a little bit of a battle with thispart of the brain that does one change.
Now, being aware of that helps a lot.
And I would say what reallyhelps in in breaking habits what
I found is find a community.
Of people, not of people that aretrying to break the habit as well.
(55:20):
Find, try, find a communityof people that have broken the
habit that you want to break.
So when you want to go to the gymevery day join a group that is
already going to the gym every day.
Don't join a group that'sthinking about it, right?
Because then you all think about it andthen you're all in this part of the brain.
(55:43):
And sometimes somebody will break free ofit and actually go to the gym every day.
But chances are that it'sthe other way around.
That one person will give up and thenext will give up, and the next will
give up, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
So find a group that is already doingwhat you want to do and connect with
that community so that you get upliftedand you get into that into that mindset.
(56:10):
And so that you can helppeople are in their being.
90% of the people, if you ask them, Hey,what did you do to break this habit?
They love to share their story.
They love to help you and even if it'sjust the first step, they don't have to
help you, from zero to a hundred, right?
(56:31):
If they help you, from zero to half astep, you are half a step further than you
were and so people will always share thesetypes of things with you, if you just put
yourself out there and connect with them.
Abhra (56:48):
That is makes sense.
So beautifully explained.
Thank you for such adeep insight into this.
I think we have covered some of themost important aspects in this space.
I'm sure someone listening intothis conversation, they are
definitely benefited by it.
(57:10):
For for our listeners, can youshare how they can work with
you if they are interested?
Carolina (57:16):
Oh, absolutely.
So if you look me up onGoogle, if you type in rat race
recovery, I immediately come up.
Besides from that, under my name,Carolina Bakker, I'm on LinkedIn and I
love to hear from people on LinkedIn.
I also have a YouTube channel.
Abhra (57:34):
I will be sharing the notes and links into the episodes.
If anyone wants to work with you,can they reach out to you through
your website and LinkedIn, et cetera?
Carolina (57:43):
Yeah, absolutely.
So through my website and throughLinkedIn and I'm also on YouTube where
I actually post a lot of meditationsand three minute mindfulness, exercises.
So I would recommend people that are onthis journey to have a look there as well.
Abhra (57:59):
Wonderful.
It was great talking to you and hearingfrom you and most importantly, let's hope
that we can make a difference by talkingabout it, by sharing these strategies
and we make the world a better place.
Carolina (58:15):
Oh, yes.
That is indeed one of mymain goals as many people out
of this situation as there.
Possibly can be out of thissituation because it's not normal.
Abhra (58:30):
Absolutely.
Thank you so much for taking the timeto talk to stories and stanza today.
Carolina (58:36):
Thank you so much for having me.
This was wonderful.
I love the title and I love it mostly because in it is a, is the
idea that if you can find what you thinkyou did in a situation, you can also
find the empowerment to get out, right?
(00:29):
You come into this company and thefirst thing that happens, of course
is that a company, when you havean interview, they tell you, let's
see if you fit into our culture.
And I think that's in essence is alreadysomething to where you start twisting
(00:50):
and turning away and putting a little bitof your heart and a little bit of your
future in the hands of somebody else.
I know firsthand how the workplace canreally have a negative effect on your
life, on your friends, on your family.
(01:10):
When you look at people that are leaders,people that are truly going to be
great in this life -they lift you up.
They don't push you down.
Abhra (01:26):
Life flows like an endless ocean of stories.
We often miss these precious talesas we rush through our days, too
consumed by daily struggles tonotice the poetry swirling around us.
Yet within these stories lie the keysto our past, sparks for our creativity,
(01:46):
and fresh wings to fill our sails.
I'm Abhra, a writer based inMelbourne in quest of those stories
with diverse voices that tell themfrom every corner of the world.
Welcome to Stories and Stanza.
Hi Carolina.
Welcome to Stories and Stanza.
How are you doing today?
Carolina (02:07):
Good morning.
Well, good evening for you, thank youso much for having me on your podcast
Abhra (02:13):
I'm looking forward to hearing from you and Yes, I had a nice day.
We on different ends of the same day.
Carolina (02:22):
Different ends of the world actually.
You were all the way to Australiaand I'm all the way in Portugal.
Abhra (02:29):
Yes.
I am looking forward to hearing from you.
We are going to talk aboutsomething very important topic
in today's professional world.
For our audience, could youbriefly introduce yourself?
Carolina (02:42):
Yes, of course.
So I am Carolina Bucker.
I'm the Rat Race recovery coach and Isupport people that are either in or
have left a toxic workplace environment.
I support companies in improvingtheir workplace wellness so that their
employees feel safe and supportedand able to express themselves.
(03:07):
Of course, that leads to people wantingto stay and wanting to come to work
in the morning and that ultimatelyleads to much better results.
so yes, that's in that capacity as whyI'm here as a coach for all these groups
and mostly around workplace wellness.
Abhra (03:31):
Wonderful.
This particular segment inthe podcast, Fail With Me.
I wanted to create a supportive spacewhere we look into our failures and remove
the stigma from failure and understand.
So when I had a difficult phasemyself, I thought about writing and
(03:54):
decided to call it Fail With Me.
That is how this series got started.
Gradually, as more and more guestsjoined, they enriched this whole
idea of fail with me, with theirexperience, their expertise and wisdom.
So in this particular context ofworkplace trauma, sometimes when we
(04:16):
have a negative or abusive experiencein workplace, then we may consider that
as a failure of our professional growth.
So that is how I associate the topictowards this theme in this podcast, and
the first thing I would like to hearfrom you is how does the idea 'Fail
(04:36):
with me' sit with you and if thereis anything you want to talk about it
based on your experience and expertise.
Carolina (04:45):
Yes.
Well, so fail with me.
I love the title and I love it mostlybecause in it is a, is the idea that
if you can find what you think youdid in a situation, you can also find
(05:07):
the empowerment to get out, right?
If you can take responsibility,which by the way, I translate
as the ability to respond.
If you can take that responsibility,you can take back your power.
So in seeing a failure, and I thinkhonestly in workplace trauma and
(05:31):
in all those situations, there'sa lot that being done to us.
Right?
And especially if you are stuck in acertain situation, that is just, I mean,
then where do you find your way out?
And by looking at it from a, whatcan I do about this situation?
(05:56):
You take that back andyou take back that power.
you asked me what is my, a littlebit of my personal story with that.
So I was in corporatepositions for a very long time.
I was basically a nineto five ladder climber.
Right.
(06:16):
I started, immediately, well evenwhen I was still in university.
I started working for this companyand all these companies had this
this underlying, unspoken rules thatyou come in, you're new to working
and to the markets, let's say.
(06:37):
You come into this company and thefirst thing that happens, of course
is that a company, when you havean interview, they tell you, let's
see if you fit into our culture.
And I think that's in, in essence,is already something to where you
start twisting and turning away andputting a little bit of your heart
(07:03):
and a little bit of your futurein the hands of somebody else.
Because what happens is, at thatmoment, for me, they said, well,
let's see if you fit into our culture.
And so what happened is,I really wanted that job.
It was my first job and so,ooh, I really want this.
So what happens is that you willturn a little bit to fit in, right?
(07:28):
And in the companies where I work for,fitting in meant working extremely
hard and making such long hours.
And then after the, we were finishedworking, sitting down with the people,
your colleagues, your coworkers.
To talk about the workday.
(07:50):
So basically I was there from eighto'clock in the morning until, I don't
know, nine o'clock at night and whichis, which didn't leave much time.
Sometimes on weekends as well by then,which didn't leave time for any health.
(08:11):
Health things like going to the gymor cooking my own meals or and that,
with that eating healthy, it didn'tleave time for any rest and, recovery.
And so my career started out like that.
And I found that throughout all thechanges that I made, and no matter which
(08:33):
company I went to, and especially Iwent into the larger corporate companies
and I started climbing the ladderthere, that expectation and that working
hard and working immense hours, thatonly got worse and worse and worse.
(08:55):
So I know firsthand how the workplacecan really have a negative effect on your
life, on your friends, on your family.
My workplace had ca because I was barelyseeing them and how it can have a negative
effect on self-care and on your mind.
(09:19):
So this, when I walked my path,let's say, and funny enough.
I started coaching people very earlyon in my career, and I always say
the painter's house is never paintedwell, sort of, because when you come
home and you help everybody else, youdon't feel like doing your own stuff.
(09:42):
Funny enough, I was already giving otherpeople all these tools to work through
their stress and work through theiranxiety, and especially work through
their imposter syndrome, and then toset boundaries so that the workplace
wouldn't feel so overwhelming for them.
(10:04):
And I didn't apply any of those toolsto myself, until I got to a turning
point where I was so burned outand so exhausted that let's say the
workplace where I gave my all, thatcouldn't even energize me anymore.
So everything around mewas already less and less.
(10:29):
And then that one place, where I put allmy energy in, that place basically was
crumbling and there was one very specificday, and one very specific example.
So I had been which I believe isalso a part of a way that a workplace
can suck you in, and, can give youthis, I call it a rat race, right?
(10:54):
Or, a donkey with a carrot, you'rebeing shown a carrot and it's being
held in front of you, and you keepon walking towards that carrot, all
the time, not realizing that it's ona stick that's tied to your own back.
So you never really come closer.
The rat race, basically, you go forsomething, but you never come closer.
(11:18):
And so I had that feeling.
I was growing and growing, but at somepoint my growth stopped and for a couple
of years it stopped in the company.
Not my personal growth, ofcourse, but in the company.
I was working really hard for thispromotion and for, I was working really
hard on a project that they said, if youcomplete this wonderful project and it's,
(11:43):
it has high visibility, and then you willfinally be seen by the people that need
to make a decision about your promotion.
So continue and do that project.
Then one day I was already up to here.
I worked like relentlessly like 80, 90hours a week for three weeks in a row.
(12:04):
I was exhausted, my eyes were here.
And it was quite funny, actually.
It was, if I look at a picture of myselffrom that moment, you can see the blue.
There was no makeup thatcould cover that up anymore.
And but that particular dayI. I came to the office and
(12:24):
this was a big turning point.
I came to the office and like I said,the office was basically ruling my
life and determining what I would doin a day, how I would feel in a day
how I, how my emotional state wouldbe, how my physical state would be.
It.
It was determining everything.
(12:45):
My work was determining everything,and I came to the office and this
major project that I hung all my hopesand dreams on to get that next step.
It got canceled or postponed indefinitely.
And so that for me was like, it wasdevastating because I needed that
(13:09):
visibility for my next step and.
So I, you know, I started, andthis is where I started failing.
I started thinking howdid, where did I go wrong?
How could I have prevented this?
And my mind went into overdrive andI was, I literally, I was devastated.
(13:31):
And then on that same day, I had thisthis meeting for another project, and
there were these stakeholders and theywere all saying, ah, we want dates
and we want this, and we want that.
And I gave them all these, I wasso tired, and I gave them all these
commitments that I knew, but Ijust couldn't set my boundaries.
(13:53):
I was so tired that I just,I couldn't set my boundaries.
I couldn't say no.
And then when I did say no, theypressured me a little bit more.
And at some point I just gave up.
And so that pressure and that,those expectations, I just, I
just decided, you know what?
I'll figure it out laterbecause I just didn't have the
(14:15):
willpower anymore to say no.
And then on that same day someother little things happen here
and there, other project that gotdelayed and a friend of mine saying,
Hey, I haven't seen you in forever.
And I couldn't find a assaultin my calendar to meet with her.
Which also made me feellike a failure, right?
(14:37):
Things in my private lifestarted crumbling as well.
And that was somehow because ofcourse, all the setbacks and then
that meeting and then my friend thatit all just, it weighed so heavy
on me and I felt that pressure.
And then at the end of the day, of courseof course at the end of the day my manager
(15:01):
called me into his office and I. He, hetold me, listen that promotion that we,
you have been working so hard for it's,I'm afraid it's not going to happen.
And they turned around somethingin the organization and
it's it's not gonna happen.
And he sat it in a very matter of factway, and he knew how invested I was.
(15:25):
But he said it in such a matterof fact way, like, no emotion.
No.
Are you okay?
And so I felt like at that moment, I itwas like, okay, I've been working like
two and a half years to get to that point.
And then he said somethingthat today I still think is not
(15:47):
really how it's supposed to be.
He said, well, but you know what?
For that type of position.
You really need to be a little bitmore politically sophisticated.
And by the way, you're way toogood at what you do here, so
nobody really wants you to move.
(16:09):
And that was like, it just, that broke me.
I walked out of his office like almostin tears, but trying to hold it of
course, because, if somebody is so,matter of fact you don't wanna express
your emotions in front of them.
And I walked out of that officeand I thought to myself, I didn't
(16:30):
even think I was just numb.
I just shut down.
And I went through that.
I stayed in the office because I honestly,I didn't know what to do with myself.
I was so, I, there's so, so I. Therewas just something in me that I was so
disconnected from myself and from myfeelings and from what just happened.
(16:55):
I was just flabbergasted.
It was like, and it was like the strawthat broke the camel's back, and I
stayed into the office and it wasalready the end of the day when I had
that conversation with my manager.
And I waited basically untileverybody else went home.
(17:16):
And then I went to the empty parking lotbecause I was the last one out again.
And I sat into my car and I just lost it.
I broke down in tears and I sobbeduncontrollably, and I sat there for,
I think it must have been like anhour, just crying my eyes out, and I
(17:42):
went home and I all the way driving.
And of course, because I'm at theend of the day, it was almost, it
was so, it was almost hilarious.
But I forgot to put gas in my car.
And because I was in sucha state, I didn't realize
that the light was blinking.
(18:04):
I didn't even notice.
And so about eight, 10 minute walkfrom home, my car stopped and it didn't
have more gasoline just stopped andI had to walk the last bit home on
heels this high, so not the favoritething to do, I can tell you for a lady.
(18:25):
And so I got my stuff out of thecar and I walked home and on my
way home, and this was reallymy turning point on my way home.
I had to cross train tracks.
And so, I walked, and when I was on thetrain tracks I looked down, and for a
second, just for a second, I felt tomyself, what if I just sat down here?
(18:55):
It would be so easy a train wouldcome and everything would be over,
and then I snapped out of it becausea train actually did come and it
was like bling bling, bling bling.
Everything started to move, toindicate that I was a train.
And so I snapped out of it and I walked.
I walked ahead, but stepping off that,I turned around to look at the train
(19:20):
passing, and I thought that's too much.
That's what, what did.
I just think that thoughtgoing through my head.
Seriously, am I giving up?
What am I giving up for my work?
What am I and what and that'swhen I started asking myself,
(19:44):
because I've been asking myselfall these questions the entire day.
What did I do wrong?
What could I have done better?
I screwed up the project.
Somehow I could have preventedit from being canceled.
There was no way I could haveprevented it from being canceled
because it was a legislation change.
So no matter what I would'vedone, there was no way, but I
(20:05):
blamed myself for it anyway.
Then with the meeting ofthe where I got pressured.
Where I felt pressured and I said,all these, gave all these commitments.
Why did I give those commitments?
I'm such an idiot.
Nobody is ever gonna taketheir commitment back.
They're gonna pressure me.
I'm gonna have to work for 80 hoursa week in the next coming weeks,
(20:28):
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
All these thoughts going through my head.
And then of course, with my friends,oh, I'm letting my friends down.
I'm such a bad friend.
Which then went into, I'm sucha bad person I never get to do.
And then I went, oh, victimhood on myself.
I never get to do what I like.
I why don't I have time for this?
(20:49):
Why don't I have a time for that?
Why don't I have time for this?
And then of course, with mymanager telling me that I went into
blaming him and blaming myself.
I didn't I didn't work hard enoughon being politically correct.
Why did I always use thewrong words to express myself?
Why didn't I make more connectionswith the people that mattered?
(21:12):
Why did I, and so those thoughtsall were in my head right when
I stepped out of that car.
And I, when I look back at thattrain passing, I thought, what
the hell am I doing to myself?
And all of a sudden, all that, allof it, it just fell into place.
(21:35):
Like there has to be a waythat I can take my power back.
And so there has to be away that I can stop myself.
From feeling this anxious distress fromgoing over my boundaries all the time,
and from letting people influence melike that there has to be a way that
(22:02):
I can take control, that I can somehowbuild a boundary, that I can somehow
protect my energy, that I can protectmy time, that I can protect, there has
some, there has to be something I can do.
And of course then I also, looked at mycolleagues and some of them were stressed.
(22:26):
I saw that, but they seemed tobe doing all this stuff so easy.
And so it was quite a journeyfrom that moment to, deal with all
that workplace pressure, becausemind you, this was a workplace.
Where the pressure was really high.
(22:47):
So it was it was not a place of wellness.
There was, there were so many thingsthere that were that were unfair, that
were that were simply not the way thata workplace is supposed to be, that
(23:07):
we're unsafe, that we're, it was just,it was a constant hit on, on, on you.
But I did decide to take my power back.
Sorry.
I've been talking a lot.
Abhra (23:22):
Thank you for sharing your journey and as, someone who has worked
in the technology domain for last twodecades, I can totally relate to the
situations you are referring to here.
Carolina (23:42):
Is there a personal story that you have that you could share?
Abhra (23:45):
I have many personal stories that I can, talk about and I am curious to
hear from you as to how to handle such,scenarios when they happen in a workplace.
When you join a new workplace andyou are told, are you a cultural
(24:08):
fit for that organization?
And just to get accepted, we accomodate,it starts with little bits, and then
it gets stronger and stronger andstronger without us noticing that
it is creating a pressure on us.
(24:29):
It is eating us, our confidenceand things like that.
I wanted to mention three, four sortof scenarios that I have come across.
The most common one is fear tactic.
So when you join somewhere, you areusually new, and then you are trying to
(24:56):
accommodate yourself in the environment.
Then people try to scareyou, oh, you cannot do this.
You are not suitable for this.
You're not good enough.
That sort of fear.
You are not, you don'thave a career here, okay?
You're doing the whole thing wrongand saying things like you don't
(25:16):
have the credibility to deliver.
Is one, one, angle to look at it.
Carolina (25:23):
Do you want me to respond to that first before
you go into the next one.
So first thing is that you, youhave to, and I know that's difficult
when you're in a situation, but youhave to remember it's, them not you.
Once, when you look at people that areleaders, people that are truly going to
(25:46):
be great in this life -they lift you up.
They don't push you down.
So understand that it's them, not you.
And whatever is going on in their world,it can be because of old habits, or
(26:07):
it can be because they are bullied.
It can be because they're very hurt.
There's there, but it's them not you.
Because if you have a true leader and ora true peer, or it's somebody that's good
at what they do, they will lift you up.
Nobody will ever push you downif they are a true leader.
(26:33):
So that's the mostimportant thing to remember.
And it's a very fear is very subtle.
Right?
And we get, if people say these thingsto us, that's really workplace trauma.
Also, don't underestimate howmuch trauma that actually is.
(26:54):
Don't say to yourself, well, I am, I.
It's me.
I am just sensitive because a lotof these things we get told, right?
Ah, don't be sensitive.
Even when we take them home when wetalk to our family and our friends
that are not in the situation at thatmoment and do not hear the person say
(27:17):
those words to you like, you're notgood enough, or You're you have to,
you, you're not skilled enough or you'renot, you don't have enough knowledge or
you're not social enough, or whateverthey say, you're not enough of.
When you bring that home out of lovefor you, your family and your friends
will try to make you feel better.
(27:39):
And how do they make you feel better Bysaying, ah, I'm sure it'll pass, or I'm
sure you will, he, it will get better.
Or maybe you can find another job.
It's not that easy.
I know it's from, it comes from a placeof loving you, but it feels like you're
very alone in that as well, right?
(28:03):
But most important thing, rememberit's not you and acknowledge what is
done to you and acknowledge that notin a way like they need to change.
Because a person, when they are inthat same state, right, in that same
company, and they treat you like that,they are in a certain pattern as well.
(28:30):
And when you look at how you can influencethings, there is always a circle of
things that you cannot influence.
Then there's a circle of things that youcan try to influence and then you, there's
a circle of things that you can control.
And within the circle of control, theonly person that's in there is you.
(28:53):
The only thing you canreally control is you.
And so the thoughts that are goingthrough your head, if you look at fear
are for example, what if they are right
and what if what if they fire me?
'cause I do not have enough knowledge.
(29:16):
What if I won't pass thatexam that they want me to do?
What if I don't pass this?
How do you call that, thatthing they do every year to
indicate that you are socially.
Like
Abhra (29:29):
appraisals and stuff.
Yeah,
Carolina (29:32):
exactly.
Appraisals, yeah.
Feedback loops, all things.
And so that's, you are startingto anticipate things that
will happen in the future.
And your fear comes fromanticipating things in the future.
What if, and so with fear,and it's very real, huh?
(29:55):
Don't get me wrong.
These types of things are very real.
But when you are in fear, you arein a survival part of the brain.
And you are by definition, not creative,not open, not you won't see possibilities.
(30:15):
And so for you, what can, if you arein fear, what you can do about that
is make sure you get out of that.
Flight or fight or or freeze mode thatyou are in and or form, which means
that you are trying to please somebody.
(30:35):
So get yourself out of thatfear state as best as you can.
Now, how do you do that?
It can be very simple.
It can be as simple as andthat it's simple but not easy.
Let me put it like that.
It can be as simple as takingthree deep breaths or focusing
(30:57):
on a physical sensation.
So like rubbing your fingers over yourhand with your full concentration that
takes you out of the survival brainand puts you into that creative brain.
And from that creative brain,you can start to see solutions.
You also, from that creativebrain, you are proactive.
(31:21):
So you can take charge insteadof being reactive and responding.
This is the part that makes you think,oh, how can I how do I want to respond?
What is the best way to respond?
So in, in case of fear from thisbreak, we will start from the
(31:42):
fight or flight or freeze or form.
We will start to say for example,in form, oh yes, of course
I will do that immediately.
Of course.
And well, in this place, the momentyou you are here, you'll say, well, I
think that your response towards me orthe words towards me are inappropriate.
(32:09):
Which will, which from afair perspective, sounds.
Like, I could never ever say thatyet, when you are calm and when you
are in the part of the brain that iscreative, the words come out very easily.
So it then it all comes down tomindfulness and being present and stopping
(32:39):
your brain from going into that futureand thinking the worst case scenarios and
letting it go into the future, thinkingof the best case scenarios and forcing
it to think of the best case scenario.
Right.
Abhra (32:56):
Absolutely.
That's the part.
Absolutely totally understand that.
And I can tell you that it, itdefinitely makes a big difference.
I. The other pointers that I have in mind.
You actually have answered that already.
I mean, what you said, it kindof as a thumb rule, we can apply
(33:18):
to, other situations as well.
It is basically being present inthat moment and not getting into
the fear or anxious or insecurepart of the mind and controlling the
emotions, getting the better of usthe building of emotional intelligence
(33:42):
and, understanding that boundary.
What I feel, that these traumas, theystart because one is our self-awareness
or our emotional intelligence.
It's not truly built in that momentor not functional in that moment,
(34:07):
and the boundary management in a waythat something unpleasant happens
before it starts affecting us.
We, before we get sucked intothat negativity, we can stop that
and we can control that whateveris happening from affecting us.
(34:31):
If I look back at my career now, theseare the things I try to tell my past self
so that I can do better in, in future.
And I think that it's, again I'll goback to the beginning of our discussion,
is that accommodating ourselves into.
Getting accepted into the organizationalculture, somehow that is rooted in
(34:59):
the need of approval, that you needsomeone's approval to get accepted.
Whereas, again, what you mentioned,that there are these three circles that
one you cannot influence, one you caninfluence, and one you can truly control.
If that is there with me from day one,I don't think no amount of abuse or
(35:22):
harm or humiliation can affect us.
So thank you for explainingthat so beautifully.
I think you answered thestrategies so perfectly.
You explained it so beautifully.
The other things that I had in mindwas on the similar lines as in say I
(35:43):
am not feeling confident or secure.
I'm in a group of people and thenI'm insulted all of a sudden, and
then no one is speaking up for that.
I feel that is affecting me, but.
I guess, the three layers that youmentioned, what we control and influence,
(36:05):
we can apply the same thinking insuch situations and we can come out
of it without, letting it affect us.
So, yes.
Yeah.
Thank you for that.
I'll go to something elserelated to my experience.
I have seen these kind of scenarioshave a long lasting effect on people.
(36:32):
As in, you mentioned thatdo not undermine the trauma.
Absolutely.
I'm not trying to undermine that.
What I'm trying to bring up isit stays with people, even if
they have left that workplace.
Something toxic happened with me and I amstill carrying it in the next workplace.
It's like a relationship that didn'twork and then you move on to the
(36:56):
next, but still you are carryingthe fragments or the broken pieces
with yourself to the next one.
You talked about it in the beginning,that, we should always forward think
that how we can change the perspectivein future, if someone who's struggling
with past workplace trauma, thenhow do they move on from there?
(37:21):
Or how do they heal fromthere or get over it.
Carolina (37:27):
Thank you for that question.
Beautiful question.
So this so there's several things.
What the way we get into itand the way we get out of it.
So when we, of course, when we physicallyleave something, it doesn't mean that
we are also emotionally and mentallyhave left the situation, right?
(37:49):
We need to realize that it's a triangle.
There's three components in actually four.
I believe that spiritually there issomething that is still attached as well.
And so on those pillars whenyou truly want to leave a
situation behind so first just.
(38:11):
Getting into that, and that's why Isaid, don't diminish your experience
and don't diminish your trauma.
It's because the, do you know the storyof the frog and the boiling water?
It's like if you get a frog, like anormal frog and please do not try this.
Do not the poor animal, do not try this.
(38:34):
But if you get a frog and you havea pot of boiling water and you throw
the frog in the boiling water, thefrog jumps out because it's, it
feels the water and it's a shock.
And so it jumps out.
Now, you would think that it would alsodo that when the water gets hot enough.
But if you put a frog in cold water andyou slowly start to heat up that water
(39:00):
until boiling point, it will boil to deathbecause it will not jump out of the water.
Now, this is how this traumabuilds up over the years.
As a person, you are the frog in the waterand your environment is slowly adding a
(39:20):
little bit more pressure, another littlebit of pressure, just like the heats of
the frog, another little bit of pressure.
And slowly you start to getused to that toxicity, right?
And that trauma coming at you.
That doesn't mean that it's normal.
That does not mean that when youhave reached the boiling point that
(39:45):
you ha somehow are to blame for theperson that put you in the pulse.
You are slowly getting used to thepressure until your system, your
body, your mind your emotional.
State and your spiritscan no longer handle it.
(40:06):
And that's the boiling point.
And so recognizing that boilingpoint is very important.
And knowing that you have had thatboiling point, it's like an egg, right?
Once you cook it, you cannot unco it.
And so you have for, its for, well an eggwill never uncook, but the thing is you
(40:29):
have reached that point and then you left.
But in you is still all that buildingup of the stress and building up
of everything now, getting outof that, across the four pillars.
So you physically left and you arenow working at a different place.
(40:49):
So, mentally, I think the way to get.
So if you look at the four pillars,we have spiritual, emotional,
and mental left, right mentally.
It's about controlling yourthoughts controlling your thoughts
and controlling your emotions.
'cause they basically go in a loop nowbecause you think something, then you
(41:12):
feel something or you feel somethingand then you think something, right?
And that's simply theloop in which it works.
And of course, spiritually there is thisnow you're gone out of that environment.
And what can I learn?
What can I see that I takewith me from that environment
(41:36):
that is valuable to me today?
So I think for me it's,it started with that.
It started with.
Being grateful, funny enough for allthe lessons that I learned from that
(41:57):
environment, from those environments,because it wasn't just one.
And I could see, if I look backat it without judgment, I could
see that for each of thoseenvironments, I learned something.
I learned something about myself.
I learned somethingabout setting boundaries.
(42:18):
I learned something about what Iwould and would not accept in my life.
I learned new skills that I neededfor the next phase of my life.
And so if I look back at myexperience, even though the
experience itself in that momentwas something like traumatic, right?
(42:40):
Standing on those train tracks that wasfor a reason and having those thoughts,
they were traumatic and this, that,that whole, looking back at that and
looking at my life today and seeinghow that shaped me, how that forms me,
(43:02):
how that made me choose for my purposeand made me choose to support people
that are still in that situation.
Looking back at it, I can bedeeply grateful for those moments.
Now, that's tremendously hardif you're in it, but even when I
(43:25):
was in it, I was looking back atother situations saying, thanks to
those situations, I'm here today.
Today, I can say thanks to thosesituations, I'm here today.
So working on that, on aspiritual level and it's work.
It's not a, a snap and you are out of it.
(43:48):
It's work, but it's worth it becausefrom those experiences, spiritually
speaking, I truly believe that we areshaped to become who we are meant to be.
And we are, we have these experiencesbecause something or someone
or a higher power is guiding usto where we are supposed to be.
(44:13):
And that if we learn from thoseexperiences, that we can see the path
in front of us and that we can see thatwhere we came from was all needed to know
where we are going and to be good at wherewe are going and to be our best selves.
So.
For me, that's the spiritual part.
(44:35):
Then on the mental and emotional partit's really that, that mindfulness,
that controlling your thoughts, andthe only way to control your thoughts
is, like I said, to get out of thatfear based survival brain and get into
the growth brain, the creative brain.
(44:56):
And all research shows that thereare several ways you can do that.
But the absolute simplest and best wayto do that is with mindfulness and just
to, like I said, take three deep breaths.
Or if you don't, if you cannotor don't want to do that, touch
your skin or a piece of fabric.
(45:17):
Look outside and look atthe color, smell the air.
Listen to sounds, be there in the moment,or taste the first bite of your lunch
without distraction to getyou into a different loop.
And it's basically going from avicious circle where your thoughts
(45:41):
and your emotions are pulling youdown negatively into a virtuous
circle where they help each other.
Yeah.
Abhra (45:52):
It is very beautifully explained and which is why, I try to take a walk
every so often, whether it's, duringthe day or it is in the evening.
I feel that, the moment you connectwith green or something in the
nature or maybe water, it changesyour perspective differently.
(46:15):
It gives you that gratitude from insideand then you are able to let go some
of that heart that, sometimes, withtrauma as we are getting with ourselves.
I will ask you somethingrelated to burnout, and you,
me, you mentioned burnout.
Definitely.
(46:35):
And you talked about mindfulness.
What I've seen is in, within, in myfriends, in my colleagues in, in, and
a lot of people who are in leaving thiscorporate life, that they have this
stress, they have this burnout, they havethis poor emotional intelligence, let's
(46:57):
call it that, and instead of interruptingthat cycle and coming out of it, they are
compensating that with something else.
Could be eating, could be booze,could be binge watching something.
(47:19):
It could be anything.
I mean, instead of turning thingsaround, we are holding onto.
That hurt that trauma.
And we are repeating that cycle.
So basically we arecoping from time to time.
So we are not doing ourselves any favor.
(47:39):
We are not stopping that,and we are not moving on.
Instead, we are repeating thesame thing again and again.
And I'll mention this, whyI am, I'm bringing this up.
So I am a hobbyist writer, so Ihave written to poetry collections
and for the longest time I usedto think that I have to channel my
(48:03):
suffering, my pain into the creativity.
Okay?
I didn't think about healing ordidn't think that an alternative of
the pain or frustration was possible.
I thought that I after channelthat into writing, but.
(48:25):
Recently about a year ago I've hadattended a somatic workshop and
where we talked about mindfulness,it did a few interesting exercises
and that changed my perspectivetowards everything very differently.
And now I see that if I am writing,I'm writing from an inspiration,
I'm not writing from heart or pain.
(48:46):
Okay.
I mentioned my writing into this processbecause I think that if I go back a
couple of years, so it is no differentthan getting addicted to something, just
thinking that writing is the way out.
It's basically compensatingthat hard with something else.
(49:07):
So.
As a coach, if you see someonewho is stuck, who is, with burnout
with this hurt frustration, andthey're repeating the cycle, how
do, what would you suggest them?
What strategies do you give themthat, you can stop and you can
give yourself a better life?
Carolina (49:27):
So that's that's a deep question actually.
And the reason it's so deep isbecause it touches so many things.
As I'm a Tony Robbins trained coach,and so I, with people that are stuck
in repeating the same loop overand over again, I use his methods.
So, his, one of his methods is thatthere are six human needs and he has has
(49:55):
a model to measure the six human needs.
And so.
Each person has a differentconfiguration of those human needs.
Now, if you have a behavior that yourepeat over and over and over again,
even though you are trying to step outan addictive behavior or even maybe
(50:17):
it's not addictive, but you have a cyclethat you have a year that you are in
it, and then a year that you are outit, and then a year that you're in it,
it's also a type of repetition, eventhough it's not a strong addiction like
smoking or drinking or eating or working.
So what happens is that we are, we havecertain needs and when the needs are
(50:41):
met with an addiction and our highestneeds are met with an addiction, we
repeat them until we find another.
Another way to satisfy those needs.
And so the, what happens is,for example, we all have a
(51:02):
need for love and connection.
And when we score very high on that needfor love and connection we tend to love
ourselves when with, for example, food andwe soothe ourselves with food and that,
then it's very difficult to get out ofthat cycle because food basically is easy.
(51:25):
It's accessible, you can get it like this.
And so every time we feel thatwe need some self love and we
feel that we have lost connectionwith ourselves, we grab a cookie.
Now that grabbing a cookie is a way tosatisfy the need for love and connection.
(51:48):
In this case with ourselves,but there's other ways that you
could satisfy that same need.
Now, of course, it that grabbing acookie is a habit that build over time.
So you can change that habit.
You can either with willpower, you canchange it like that, or you have to
(52:08):
sort of wind it down and take one cookieinstead of three, et cetera, et cetera.
Right?
And, but the most importantthing is that you need a certain
amount of love and connection.
And so there is a, you can finda different way to satisfy that
love and connection, either, forexample, by calling a friend or
(52:32):
by sitting with yourself or bygetting a facial in my case, or by
allowing a little bit of self love.
And it's, that's.
By understanding which needs you have,you will you'll be able to figure out
(52:54):
what ways you can satisfy those needsdifferently than the than the habit
you have installed for it right now.
Also we don't change a habit or a behavioruntil, because it's in our survival
brain again, and our survival brainloves to keep everything exactly the way.
(53:22):
It's because.
We know as a your survival brain is notthere to help you be happy or to make
you thrive or to, it's there to make yoursystem, your body, survive and reproduce
so that the species can continue.
It's very biological.
(53:43):
It's a biological process, andso it's not there to help you.
The other part of the brain isthat's the part that helps you.
So it will try to keepyou exactly where you are.
Why?
Because today you are alive, and thatmeans that you have survived all those
years up to today doing what you do.
(54:08):
And so that brain says, well, no, I,and it's a strong part of us, right?
I want to keep you exactly whereyou are, because being exactly where
you are is what kept you alive.
Now if you wanna be happy, onthe other hand, you need to grow.
So you need to change, you need to takeyourself out of that comfort zone and make
(54:32):
sure that you get into into well growth.
That's growth and contribution.
Those are the morespiritual needs of a person.
And so to be happy you need those.
Now what happens inside ofyou is an inner conflict.
As we coach, you call it, it's when thispart of the brain that doesn't want change
(54:56):
starts a little bit of a battle with thispart of the brain that does one change.
Now, being aware of that helps a lot.
And I would say what reallyhelps in in breaking habits what
I found is find a community.
Of people, not of people that aretrying to break the habit as well.
(55:20):
Find, try, find a communityof people that have broken the
habit that you want to break.
So when you want to go to the gymevery day join a group that is
already going to the gym every day.
Don't join a group that'sthinking about it, right?
Because then you all think about it andthen you're all in this part of the brain.
(55:43):
And sometimes somebody will break free ofit and actually go to the gym every day.
But chances are that it'sthe other way around.
That one person will give up and thenext will give up, and the next will
give up, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
So find a group that is already doingwhat you want to do and connect with
that community so that you get upliftedand you get into that into that mindset.
(56:10):
And so that you can helppeople are in their being.
90% of the people, if you ask them, Hey,what did you do to break this habit?
They love to share their story.
They love to help you and even if it'sjust the first step, they don't have to
help you, from zero to a hundred, right?
(56:31):
If they help you, from zero to half astep, you are half a step further than you
were and so people will always share thesetypes of things with you, if you just put
yourself out there and connect with them.
Abhra (56:48):
That is makes sense.
So beautifully explained.
Thank you for such adeep insight into this.
I think we have covered some of themost important aspects in this space.
I'm sure someone listening intothis conversation, they are
definitely benefited by it.
(57:10):
For for our listeners, can youshare how they can work with
you if they are interested?
Carolina (57:16):
Oh, absolutely.
So if you look me up onGoogle, if you type in rat race
recovery, I immediately come up.
Besides from that, under my name,Carolina Bakker, I'm on LinkedIn and I
love to hear from people on LinkedIn.
I also have a YouTube channel.
Abhra (57:34):
I will be sharing the notes and links into the episodes.
If anyone wants to work with you,can they reach out to you through
your website and LinkedIn, et cetera?
Carolina (57:43):
Yeah, absolutely.
So through my website and throughLinkedIn and I'm also on YouTube where
I actually post a lot of meditationsand three minute mindfulness, exercises.
So I would recommend people that are onthis journey to have a look there as well.
Abhra (57:59):
Wonderful.
It was great talking to you and hearingfrom you and most importantly, let's hope
that we can make a difference by talkingabout it, by sharing these strategies
and we make the world a better place.
Carolina (58:15):
Oh, yes.
That is indeed one of mymain goals as many people out
of this situation as there.
Possibly can be out of thissituation because it's not normal.
Abhra (58:30):
Absolutely.
Thank you so much for taking the timeto talk to stories and stanza today.
Carolina (58:36):
Thank you so much for having me.
This was wonderful.
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