September 3, 2025 • 42 mins
Can you really train your dog effectively—without punishment or dominance?
In this science-backed episode of Straight Up Dog Talk, Em sits down with Annie Grossman—dog trainer, educator, and author of How to Train Your Dog with Love + Science—to unpack what actually helps dogs learn. They explore the mechanics of clicker training, why positive reinforcement builds trust faster than fear ever could, and how modern, humane training gets real results without sacrificing relationship.
You’ll learn:
• Why clicker training speeds up learning and builds behavior fluency
• How positive reinforcement impacts your dog’s brain and confidence
• The science behind learning theory vs. outdated dominance training
• When (and how) to choose training tools that support emotional regulation
• Actionable, easy ways to use reinforcement in real life—not just training sessions
Whether you're just starting or ready to leave old-school methods behind, this episode will rebuild your confidence, your clarity, and your connection with your dog.
Check out How to Train Your Dog with Love + Science by Annie Grossman
https://www.schoolforthedogs.com/book
Bonus: Annie references a video clip—watch it here for context: https://youtu.be/jgDzy8y7jDM
Straight Up Dog Talk Extras:
Get a free copy of Feeding without Fear for mealtime manners
https://straightupdogtalk.com/programs-%26-freebies/ols/products/feeding-without-fear
Book FREE 15-minute call with Em
https://straightupdogtalk.hbportal.co/schedule/68cdb369ba20a30034591cd9
Email straightupdogtalk@gmail.com to get in touch with Em
This podcast explores real-life dog behavior and training, diving into reactivity, barking, dog anxiety, aggression, picky eating, gut health, and dog food—while unpacking enrichment, mental stimulation, supplements, calming aids, and holistic pet wellness. Whether you’re raising a rescue dog, supporting a senior dog, managing a velcro dog, or just navigating life with a dog who’s asking for more, you’ll find practical tools to build trust, strengthen communication, and create a safe, thriving life together.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Every dog is different. That's actually our show models.
Every dog is different and everyhuman is too.
And so I like for people to not focus on breed so much either.
But most people are very breed focused.
They know what breed their dogs are.
(00:22):
Welcome to Straight Up Dog Talk,the place where no one feels
alone in the mess and the magic of dog life.
Today I'm joined by Annie Grossman, dog trainer, educator,
and author of How to Train Your Dog with Love and Science.
In this episode, we're diving into the stories behind the
book, the dog who started it all, and the powerful shift that
happens when we leave with curiosity, compassion, and
(00:43):
connection. Whether you're just starting out
or you've been in the training world for a while, this is one
of those conversations that remind you why we do this work.
Let's get into it. We have a copy of her book right
here. Start us out today by telling us
a little bit about why you started writing and the dog that
inspired you. It's.
Actually started out as a writerright out of college.
(01:05):
I started working at newspapers.I was writing a lot of like
lifestyle kind of stuff. And then around 2008 thousand 9,
the the economy changed, the media world changed.
You know, there was definitely like a move away from print
media, which is what I was doing.
And I was like, I think I just want to find something else to
do with my life. And you know, I'd always loved
(01:26):
dogs. I'd been a dog Walker, you know,
from the age of like 10. I do not recommend hiring a 10
year old dog Walker by the way, but I was, I grew up in New York
City and I used to watch walk myneighbor's dogs for a dollar a
walk. I always loved training my dog.
I really didn't know what I was doing, but it was fun.
I, I had this wonderful little Yorkie poo named Amos, who was
(01:46):
the light of my life and I lovedspending time with him.
I remember I was spending a lot of time at the dog park doing a
lot of soul searching, trying tofigure out what to do with with
my life. And I was like, I just love
being at the dog park and watching dogs and talking to
people about their dogs and learning about dogs.
Maybe I should do something withdogs.
And I ended up getting into a conversation at the dog park one
day with someone who father had just graduated from the Karen
(02:08):
Pryor Academy for animal, animalTraining and behavior.
I had looked into some programs and they all seemed too eager to
take my money. But the more that I talked to
him and then I and then I got intouch with his father, the more
I felt like, OK, this seems likea really a really legit
vocational school. And I applied.
I really knew nothing about dog training, which I think is kind
of unusual. I think a lot of people go into
(02:30):
Karen Pryor Academy with a lot of experience under their belt
to kind of get that accreditation and like finesse
their skills. I went in just a total blank
slate, really found it transformative.
Not only did get me, you know, super excited about this idea of
having a career working with dogs, but it also just made me
see the whole world anew becauseit really introduced me to the
(02:52):
science of behavior and animal training as they teach it as a
technology of that science. I, I don't think I was aware
that there was a science of behavior at best, maybe I
thought it was kind of like a pseudoscience, but I, I got
really interested in hurting outon where did this come from?
Who figured this out? How did this develop?
(03:13):
And that was, that was like 2010.
I just kind of started reading everything I could get my hands
on about, about the development of the science of behavior over
the last century or so. And when I graduated Karen Pryor
Academy, I was like, well, I guess I'm gonna go be a dog
trainer now. Couldn't quite figure out how to
(03:33):
get started. There was no one around who
seemed like a, you know, obviousmentor that I wanted to work
with. And I got it in my head, if I
had a space, like I feel like ifI had a space, people could come
to. So much about training, I
believe, is the environment. The environment dictates
behavior. And I felt like I really wanted
to have an environment I could control and bring people to and
have essentially a school. So I moved all my furniture out
(03:55):
of my Manhattan living room and put in a Murphy bed and started
what I called School for the Dogs and had group classes and
did private lessons. And for me, it was really key to
like having that space sort of helped me conceive of how I
wanted to exist in the world as a dog trainer and how I wanted
to work with people. It was an amazing success right
(04:18):
off the bat and I expanded to progressively larger locations
over the next few years and ultimately ended up in this
beautiful two-story facility on E 7th St. in Manhattan.
I think at its height, we had something like 15, 15 trainers
and, you know, we're seeing hundreds of hundreds of dogs
every month. And all the while, while I was
(04:39):
running this business, I was also in my head writing this
book about how to train dogs andabout understanding the science
of behavior through dog trainingand sort of trying to convey to
people how dog training, yes, it's about getting your dog to
walk nicely on leash and not be on the carpet and not jump on
people and this, that and the other, but that.
(04:59):
There are so many lessons that we can learn through training
our dogs about how we exist in the world and how we relate to
each other, how we are trained by forces beyond our control.
I'm so excited the book is out there.
Also because I think dog training in a lot of ways is
unfortunately a luxury. Certainly doing it in New York
City was not something that I could easily provide to people
(05:23):
on a budget. Had to had to often charge more
than I wanted to charge because so much of what we were doing
was on site too, That limited the amount of people we could
work with. So I'm, I'm just glad this book
is out there because I feel likeit's low price point.
It's like $12.00 or whatever. I don't think it's a majorly
comprehensive guide, but my goalwas to write something that
would just people's point of view and get them started on the
(05:45):
right foot, get them asking the right questions, get them
finding the right people to workwith and sort of seeing things
in a way that I hope is refreshing.
And that that, you know, clears away some of the static out
there about about dogs and training.
You did a beautiful job of that in the book, touched on a lot of
things here that I want to touchon today.
So that's phenomenal. First of all, I was also a 12
(06:07):
year old dog Walker, so at Pet Sitter I started a very young
age and I'm also a really huge dog nerd.
I'm really excited to have this conversation with you today
because I feel like they get a lot deeper when we both have the
background in it, but we also have our unique individual
viewpoints on things. So it opens up the discussion a
(06:28):
little bit more for the listeners, which is always super
fun. It's something that you just
touched on there in your little spiel was accessibility and cost
point, because nowadays that's like a huge thing, dog training,
being able to train your dog is a privilege.
It's the world just keeps getting more and more and more
expensive and people who want totrain their dogs go and they
(06:52):
check out videos on YouTube and they stumble on to somebody that
you mentioned quite frequently in your book, which is Cesar
Milan. And then they end up putting
there's dogs in these bad situations without even
realizing that they're doing it.And now of course, we have to go
back through learning things andfiguring out what we did wrong
because they've created bad scenarios in their home without
(07:15):
even realizing it. And I think that it's so
terrible that there's so much content out there that's like
that because it causes there to be so much conflict in our homes
and put animals in danger of losing their lives, putting
people in danger of getting bit or harmed by dogs just because
dogs are scared. And I really wish that there was
(07:37):
more regulation on those kinds of things and how they're
available and accessible and whois allowed to do it, because it
is dangerous in so many different ways.
And I don't think that people think about that.
That was one of the reasons thatI started this whole thing.
It's dangerous. It's a completely unregulated
field, especially in America. I have a podcast, so same name.
(07:59):
It's book How to Train Your dog with Love and Science.
And last year I did an episode where I was calling around to
buy shock collars. Wasn't actually buying it, but I
was just trying to see if you want to buy a shock or what
happens if you just ask basic questions.
The things these people on the phone said were just ridiculous.
At one point I said to one person, I think I think it was
maybe at chewy.com. Whoever answered the phone at
chewy.com said, OK, if I, if my,if I have my five year old
(08:20):
daughter do this with me, with my dog.
And she was like, no, no, no, no, no.
I think that should be no problem.
I've gotten the, I've gotten thefeedback that, that my book has
too much criticism of, of the dog whisperer and some other dog
trainers, especially in the world of positive reinforcement
dog training, where it's all about encouraging the behaviors
you like. There can be the idea of like,
(08:42):
you shouldn't put anyone else down.
But I do agree with you. I think it's really dangerous.
I think it's dangerous because so much information out there
that is free and accessible is at best dated and useless.
And at worst, yeah, it can really cause harm to dogs and to
people. And that's why, you know, rather
than pointing out every example of poor dog training out there,
(09:04):
I kind of use Cesar Millan as like a stand in for, you know,
all the bad dog training out there as an example.
And sort of as a way to say like, OK, let's step back and
think about the science. Let's think about dog training
as it relates to the science of behavior.
Because it's a lot harder to argue about science than it is
(09:25):
about so many of these kind of opaque things that people like
he are saying about, you know, energy and dominance and, and
things that are hard, hard to define.
Energy for me is a really big pet peeve kind of word because I
feel like so many people just sort of take for granted as if
energy is so important with dog training.
It's like, OK, but what does that actually look like?
(09:46):
Well, what does it mean, right? Because energy could be so many
different things. Is it the time and energy like
effort that you're putting into it?
Or is it the state of mind that you're in?
Or is it the feelings of the dogand how they're responding to
whatever it is that you're doing?
I mean energy could be so many different things and without.
So many, so many things. And I think we're so egocentric
(10:10):
and thinking that my dog's problems are my problems.
I do blame a lot of that on likethe reality TV world where it's
all about, you know, the metamorphosis of the person.
And you know, I think of the book, I can say it like, you
know, a lot of these episodes might as well be about kitchen
renovation, like it's about finding the lesson in yourself
as it relates to your dog. Whereas I would say to people
(10:32):
all the time coming when they would come to school for the
dog, your dog's issues, they might be, they might be because
of you. But more often than not, like
the people bringing in their dogs who have real issues to a
dog trainer are really incredible people who are taking
that time and effort to find thehelp they need for their dog and
their dogs issues are most likely not because of them.
(10:54):
If we could just get rid of thattrope, that would make me happy.
I'm salty with social media because it's all about look at
how beautiful our Instagram lifelooks and it's really not like
that. But I agree with you because the
people that come two dog trainers are usually not the
problem. There is something deeper that
is going on there. I know that from personal
(11:14):
experience because my dog fits is the reason that I became a
dog trainer. If I was a vet tech before and a
pet sitter and dog Walker and I did all of the dog things all of
my life. But when I got him and he became
this difficult dog, I realized that I needed to change some
things in my life. And he really made me look at
things differently with dogs andlearn how to understand behavior
(11:38):
as a science and really look at the depth of character that dogs
actually have. The hardest part for me is
somebody who's loved dogs and been involved with dogs all my
life is that I never saw dogs not being unique individuals
that had thoughts and personalities of their own.
That just was second nature to me.
So when I come across all these people that don't understand
(12:01):
that dogs are unique individualswith thoughts and feelings of
their owns, I'm always like, wait, what?
That doesn't make sense to me because it's just like any other
living creature. We have to go through the
motions of living and without usas humans to take care of them
and feed them and give them a place to sleep and all that
(12:21):
stuff. They would find their own way to
do that because they're dogs. They understand how resources
work. It just floors me that people
are like, well, I don't understand why he would do that
or why would he do that to me. We take things so personally
when it's it's really not about us at all.
It's really just how they think.Take things personally.
And also we do so much projection.
(12:43):
I remember I had one client who was always talking about like
how spoiled rotten her dog was and what a diva her dog was.
And I was like, I don't experience your dog that way,
but you do. And I can't argue with you about
it. It's true.
And just just the fact that we're so used to saying, you
know, good dogs and bad dogs, the word good and bad, attaching
it talk like dogs aren't good orbad.
Like they're just really good atbeing dogs.
(13:03):
Like they're just doing what works.
And sometimes aggression is whatworks, right?
And that's that's why we have aggressive dogs there.
But it's so easy for people to put some sort of agenda behind
it. You know, my dog is being
spiteful or stubborn or this or that.
So that's something else I try and do in the book is like, how
can we, like, think about this in a more objective way?
(13:24):
You know, as part of the research for the book, I did
dive pretty deep into the Cesar Millan Ovra.
I think one of my favorite partsof the book is where I point out
how he goes on and on about Oprah and he was on Oprah and he
but he talks about Oprah as the way to get your dog to behave is
to be Oprah. You know, you need to have that
kind of Oprah energy and then your dog will actually listen to
(13:46):
you and everybody respects Oprahand Oprah doesn't have to prove
who she is. He goes on about other people
too weirdly, like Cleopatra be more Cleopatra.
But then but then he actually goes and works with Oprah and
her dog and he's taking her to task for having a dog who
doesn't listen to her. It's like even Oprah, he's like
disappointed with how Oprah, Oprah is with her own dog, which
is just like, I mean, it's entertaining, but this is not
(14:09):
actually like, helpful information.
I've never told a client to be more Oprah.
It's phenomenal that there are so many instances in your book
where you show the backtrack of that.
But you do a really good job of saying this is exactly what he
portrayed or this is exactly what I witnessed and then this
is how I broke it down and can show you a different point of
(14:31):
view on this, which is what a lot of people really need.
Because we have been force fed this culture of dogs so much
that we have all of these expectations and these beliefs
of dogs that are not actually true.
Yeah. And I also think we tend to
think about dog training as verylike prescriptive.
(14:51):
You need to follow this recipe sitting next to a shelf of dog
training books. And most of them make me want to
fall asleep because they're likerecipe books.
OK, this is how you do, this is how you do house training.
This is how you do down. And I guess there's a place for
that. But I wanted to write something
that felt more like a story, that felt more like you want to
actually follow the thread of where this is going and make you
(15:12):
actually like think in a larger way so that you can then tackle,
tackle those issues one by one from a point of view that makes
sense. Even if I don't go into detail
about what specifically to do when your dog is jumping, but
that you can use, use this sort of point of view shift to
approach that on your own. And, and like you said, not
(15:33):
everyone is going to be able to afford a dog trainer or have
access to a dog trainer. But I, I almost think of it like
exercising or eating. Ideally, everyone kind of knows
the basics there. And then if you're lucky, you
can find a really good coach to hold your hand, help you refine
what you're doing, someone who'sfurther down the path than you
are, which is another thing. Dog trainers are not born with
(15:54):
special talents. And that is another myth that's
out there. A couple months ago, I, I saw a
girl I went to high school with at another friend's house and I
was hanging out with her dog. And she was like, my dog is just
drawn to you. You have special abilities.
And I was like, I don't think that's true, but I, but I think
it's like the sticky idea. You want to see me as a magical
(16:14):
dog person when in fact the bestdog trainer are not born with
special energy. They've just figured out how to
clear away the static. If you can find somebody who
knows more than you do and ideally have some certifications
only just cook. We were saying that's like it's
it's such an unregulated industry.
The truth is, I think a lot of the certifications don't even
mean anything, but at least it'ssomething.
(16:35):
I'm studying for the CPD TKA. I haven't completed it.
I can actually show you guys right here.
Here is all 300 of my flash cards for the test.
It's, it's a whole thing, but I have taken other things like Kim
Brophy's legs course. I've taken Michael Chicaccio's
aggressive dog course. I have, like you, had the entire
(16:56):
bookshelf of books that I have read or listened to.
I have had many conversations like this.
And obviously through 30 years of working with animals, I have
obtained a certain level of knowledge.
But I agree with you. It's not so much that we have
this special aura or these special skills, it's that we
(17:16):
understand dogs and we know how to appropriately approach them
in a way that not necessarily I want.
I don't want to make it like a blanket statement kind of thing,
but we know how to approach dogsfor the most part in a way that
almost every dog is going to be receptive to it because that's
how they're designed. And we understand that about the
(17:38):
nature of dogs. Whereas everybody else is like
here let me, let me sniff my hand, sniff my hand.
Well, I mean, I wish every kid had an hour of education on dog
body language. I mean every adult too.
But if we could start earlier. Because you don't.
You don't need a semester of it.You just need a little bit of
information to be able to spot some basic ways in which dogs
(18:00):
are telling us they're uncomfortable.
And if you can tell if a dog is uncomfortable, you can change
the situation, get the dog out of the situation, etc, etc.
Which is going to make it much less likely that you know,
you're going to get bit in the face and your dog is actually
going to have to be put down andall of that.
Instead, you know, talk about inthe book how like once you kind
of can read dog body language, it becomes really painful to, I
(18:21):
don't know, watch the dog whisperer or even even like
scroll through Instagram, you know, especially on like
Halloween, Halloween time, it's always like all these dogs
dressed up looking like looking like they're being tortured and
people are like, you know, look how cute benching look.
Or even just in daily life. You go to the farmers market and
there's all these dogs that are like, oh.
My God, why am I? Here, you think that you're
doing something nice for your dog, but you're actually
(18:43):
stressing your dog the fuck out.Yeah, and dog trainers in
general, tell me maybe you don'tagree with this, but my
experience of most dog trainers is they don't want to talk about
the science with clients. I do think it's a good idea to
stay away from jargon, but but Ialso think that science seems
scary where I've always felt theopposite.
I've always felt like, like you can, you can understand like
(19:04):
classical conditioning and operating conditioning pretty
well. I can give you like a 10 minute
education on, on those two things.
And the book, you know, I talk about like classical condition
conditioning is basically learning by association.
Operant conditioning is basically learning by
consequence. And just like just a quick
education and, and, and like a fifth grade level education.
And that aspect of the science Ithink goes a long way.
(19:26):
And especially what goes a long way, I think is thinking about
how dogs are feeling and how we can change those feelings using
classical condition or AKA learning by association.
When you're starting out at least, it's so much more
important to help a dog feel good than it is to think about
their behaviors. And we tend to think about dog
training as sit downstairs, leave it, drop it.
I've been working at the ASPCA for the last month with a lot of
(19:49):
dogs who come in like really shut down.
And a lot of what the pro trainers are doing for the first
5-6 hours they might be spendingwith that dog is feeding the dog
cheese. You have professional dog
trainers there feeding the dog cheese because you just want the
dog to feel kind of good about being there, being around these
new people, and that's. That that can be dog training
right there. When I'm walking with my girls,
(20:11):
I have two little girls and theylove saying hi to dogs on the
street all the time. They go up to a dog and they're
like, can I, can I pet your dog?And they know to ask.
And then the person is like, yes, Stella sit.
And I'm like, no, no, no, Stella, just be cute.
You have these two little girls coming up to the dog.
New York City street. Crazy enough.
Don't start asking the dog to dothese behaviors.
They may or may not know in thisstressful context.
(20:33):
Usually they haven't practiced doing it in the stressful
context, strangers etc etc and you just want your dog to feel
good about children approaching so that's kind of good news.
Telling people giving your dog cheese is dog training I guess.
I completely agree with you. I think the science part is
super important. I actually every single one of
my clients, I always tell them Iwould like for you to get Kim
(20:54):
Brophy's Meet Your Dog. And if you don't do anything
else, I want you to read the chapter on your dog's breeds.
So if it's a guardian breed or if it's a hunting breed or
whatever, I want you to read that chapter and I want you to
learn about some of the behaviors and some of the traits
and some of the stuff that you are probably seeing and don't
recognize what it is. Almost every single client comes
(21:16):
back and they're like, yeah, my dog does do that.
That makes so much more sense. Or I I see that for what it is
now and then they start recognizing it in their
day-to-day live. But also to your point, little
things for us are big things fordogs.
And I always tell my clients that too.
You cannot just do this one thing at home and then go out
and add 15 people and a hot dog truck and expect your dog to be
(21:40):
like, Oh yeah, I still know how to do that thing.
Expectation levels are way too high, and until we teach people
how to kind of step their dogs through things, that's where
people are going to continue to struggle.
Yeah, and a lot of times people want to start much later down
the line. I had a family member whose dog
was aggressive with my dog and they were like, you know, OK,
tell me how to stop this. As if like, it was like a quick
(22:03):
fix. And I was like, well, yeah.
I was like, you know, we had like, we got to go big picture
here. And Are you ready to do that?
I can't. There's not.
Just like, you know, some magic key to to this.
Yeah, of course, no forwards. Yeah, yeah.
I mean, of course you get to thepoint where like management is
key. Fortunately, we are able to
control our dogs worlds to a great extent.
(22:24):
I do think it's harder for in a lot of ways for city dog owners,
especially out on the street. You can't control everything
that's going on in the way that you can if if you have an acre
of property. Having mostly worked with urban
dogs for the last 15 years, I really believe that the people
who do put in the work and dogs,you know, who can are able to
(22:44):
live in the city. Certainly like some dogs are
never going to be OK city dogs. But when it, when it's a good
fit and someone is, is putting in the work, you have dogs who
really can be pretty bulletproof, but really can live
very, very rich and interesting lives more so often than dogs
who live in in the suburbs wherethey're not getting out very
much seeing other dogs. I just spent two weeks with my
(23:05):
dog in the suburbs actually, andI watched her become more barky
with every every person she saw.She started barking at because
even on a walk, we'd see maybe two people and I could see
aggression and her. And it was a reminder to me of
of how lucky, how lucky we are that, you know, we have these
opportunities every day to kind of like socialize her.
We tend to think about socialization as something
(23:25):
that's just for puppies. But really, you know, dogs are
learning to feel okay about the world around them all the time,
ideally. And, and all of that I think of
is best socialization. I do really like that book.
I get hesitant about about putting too much stock in breeds
for a few reasons. 1 is so many dogs are a mix of so many
breeds. And another thing is you might
have a dog who really is the prototype of, I don't know, a
(23:47):
Bernese mountain dog or border collie or whatever, but you
might have one who's an extreme on one side or the other.
And who's to say who's to say what you're going to end up
with? Actually, one of my good friends
has we call her the couch potatoborder collie.
I've also known dogs who you would think of are more lazy
dogs who are super vigilant and on top of things or so I think
(24:07):
that the the the Brophy approach.
Like I said, I like that book, but I also have some hesitations
about being too breedest. I would say especially because I
think some people make very broad ideas about breeds, say
like, oh, I got this breed because I read in this, you
know, breed book that it's good with kids.
At the end of the day, my personal approach is to look at
them each as individuals. And secondly, to think about
(24:29):
like them as dogs because as dogs, most dogs have more in
common with other dogs than theydon't.
And most dogs, I think, also have more in common with people
than we we give them credit for it.
One point I try and make in the book is if you think about all
the species who've ever existed in the world over the last
whatever, 4.5 billion years, only 1% of all species still
(24:51):
exist. 99% of species have gone extinct.
And the fact that not only are dogs and humans not extinct, not
only are we vertebrates, mammals, we live in the same
climate, have similar dietary needs, we live on land, we have
actually so much in common with dogs that I don't think it's
that crazy to start with thinking about yourself before
(25:12):
you start thinking about my dog as a border terrier.
Thinking about my dog is an animal that exists on this earth
and is operating under the same laws of science, whether the
science is gravity or or the science of behavior or whatever.
Starting with all the things we have in common with them and
then going to all the things alldogs have in common.
Personally, in my approach, I tend to think about breed like
(25:32):
3rd, 4th or 5th. Maybe right when I started
working on my book and I was like, this is a really good
book. Maybe I don't need to write a
book. Maybe.
Maybe she already wrote it. It's a really good book.
I am also very much the same. Every dog is different.
That's actually our show model is Every dog is different and
every human is too. And so I like for people to not
focus on breed so much either. But I also find that if people,
like you said with science and most people are very breed
(25:54):
focused, they know what breed their dogs are, it's very much
easier to get them in line with this is how we're going to move
forward. This is why we're doing this.
If they understand these are thecharacteristics.
And that's why I'm talking to you about this.
Not because your dog is a bordercollie, not because your dog is
a Balanois, not because your dogis a German Shepherd, but
(26:15):
because because these are more tendon in your breed of dog.
But like you said, it might not be the case.
You might have a lazy malinois, you might have a lazy border
collie, you might have a really high strung Chihuahua that likes
to chase balls and play games instead of sit in your lap and
bark at the neighbor or something.
(26:36):
There are definitely big differences, but for most people
it's a good way to at least be like OK, here's our baseline,
but this is only our baseline. Let's build from this and see
which direction. We go from here.
It's like a way a way in. There's a lot of jargon, a lot
of terminology, a lot of big words.
Even management can be a word that is scary when we talk to
our clients because they're like, well, why wait?
(26:58):
What does that mean? What does management mean?
Why are we, what are we managing?
It's like, OK, well, it's reallynot that big of a deal.
It just means we're putting up ababy gate here.
Yeah, Yeah, in the book, I guessyou could say.
But I in working with clients, Ideveloped sort of a framework
that I found helpful, which I call the dog training triad.
All of it's about environment inthe end, but breaking it down
(27:18):
into what I call management timing and rewards.
And I think of as management as basically like everything you
can buy on Amazon to change yourdog's behavior, like everything
that you can like do from the outside in to to change the way
your dog is existing in the world.
That might be a baby cake. I, I use the term management.
I'll extend it to work to eat toys.
How can I manage my dog's energy?
(27:39):
I'll extend it to muzzle, of course.
How can I absolutely keep my dogfrom from biting management
might be how much exercise am I getting the dog?
And then within that also part of the environment is, is how
we're rewarding behaviors. And I think it's really
important to figure out what is rewarding to your dog, what you
can use to reinforce behaviors you like.
Again, sort of a pleasantly easyway in, I think, right?
(28:02):
Figure out what your dog likes. Like you could probably think of
you know 5 things off the top ofyour head.
But it's a fun experiment right?To figure out.
Like sure. Is what current currency you can
use, and I try and give some examples of exercises you can
use to figure it out. But sure, start with cheese, hot
dogs, whatever. Then the third part is how
you're gonna be able to give that stuff with really good
(28:23):
timing, which does take some CL,does take some finesse in some
cases. But in other cases, like we were
saying, if you're just trying tocreate an association, sometimes
it really is just about raining,raining, raining down the
cheese, make it rain. Sometimes the timing actually
even isn't that important. But when it is important, that's
what's so cool about like the technology behind the training
(28:44):
and the development of clicker training.
Very first time I saw a clicker,I was like, that's so silly.
I don't need a thing to train mydog.
I don't need one of those. And now of course, I think, Oh
my God, it's so amazing how thisliterally simple little piece of
technology could do so much and has so much history behind it
(29:05):
and not battery operated. I could go on and on about how
much I love the curse, Although of course I'm also like, if you
don't want to use one, you don'thave to use one.
The optional, but but I think that it's really cool that this
technology developed and I and Itry and tell the story of the
clicker. I actually, I'll share a share a
link with you there. I did a history of clicker
training, like a 20 minute history of clicker training that
(29:25):
leads to some of the stuff in the book but.
Yeah, do share it and we'll share it in the episode notes so
that everybody can do it. And that's the clicker I held up
here. This your team sent me this
clicker along with the book. And one of the things that I
really like about it 1 is that it has the thing so that it can
go around here and so that it's easy accessible.
But also, I'm gonna click it foryou guys hear that there are so
(29:49):
many different clickers out there and some of them are very
aggressive and very abrasive. So make sure when you're
choosing a clicker, if you guys decide to use a clicker with
your dog, you pick one that doesnot scare your dog.
Because we have used so many clickers over the years and I
Fitz used to hide under the table when I would get the
clicker. Out yeah, yeah, I mean some dogs
(30:10):
it's never going to be the rightsolution.
You know, clicker training as sure, you know too, like it's
it's a term that refers to basically basically marker
training, but you don't actuallyhave to use a clicker.
You could word use a word like yes, you could use a whistle or
whatever. I really like this.
Happen to have one on my desk. This little clicker makes like a
tiny little tiny little noise. Tiny, tiny.
(30:32):
Love it 'cause you could just like slip it in your pocket.
And actually on my website, anniegrossman.com, if you upload
a receipt of having bought my book, I will send you it fits in
the mail, send you a little clicker.
Very cool, that's always good. People love to try out new
things and they love it and theycan get something for free.
So grab Annies book and grab a flea free clicker while you're
at it. One of the other things I want
(30:53):
to talk about quick before we wrap up here in your book, I
loved that you used real life experiences, but I also love
that you talked about your dad and how he trained his dog and
your experience with him and howthat turned some light bulbs on
for you. I think that it's really
important in the evolution of dog training to reflect on those
(31:13):
things and how differently dogs were maybe when we were kids
versus how they are now for our kids.
I just thought that it was really neat that you went
through that whole thing with your dad because he comes up a
few times in the book and the whole anecdotal training, and I
think it was a TV show or whatever that he had been
referencing. It was really neat to see you
(31:34):
go, OK, wait, what can I learn from this and how can I break
this down and see if this is even accurate and why did this
work for him? So I thought that was really
neat. Yeah, I think it shows how
little people understand that there is a science of behavior.
Dad was extremely, extremely bright and very kind, could give
(31:55):
some examples of just like what a kind of like, lovely, funny,
kind person he was. And he was like really
interested in science, but I don't think it ever really
occurred to him that like science had anything to do with
with dogs. And he also came up in a time
where, you know, dogs have only been like inside animals for 75
years or so, actually largely because of vaccines and like
(32:17):
flea protection. We, we like, we don't think
about how important that stuff is, but the fact that we can
have dogs who are vaccinated andnot full of fleas has led to a
lot more dogs and homes. So, I mean, he, he grew up in a
time where people were just sortof starting to bring dogs into
their homes. And he very much saw himself as
the dog's master. That was the word that he would
(32:38):
use. And that there was, you know,
this clear power dynamic and, and took for granted that you
had to use, you had to use forceand punishment.
And I think he would have, like,rolled his eyes at any sort of
conversation about, like, the ethics of it or the, you know,
the morality of it, which I think, you know, rubbed off on
me in a way. I think before I became a dog
(32:59):
trainer, I would have probably rolled my eyes to at a lot of
the conversations out there about, about how we treat dogs.
But now, of course, I think, like, it's so important,
especially if you have kids, to show how you can change behavior
without force and punishment andcoercion, Like how we can take
care of these animals in our midst in ways that are both
(33:20):
impactful, effective and gentle and safe.
But I don't think that was necessarily obvious to me from
the get go, just based on where I came came from after my dad
died. And I talk about this in the
book. I was on YouTube and I watched
this video of this woman from the early 1980s who had ATV show
(33:41):
on PBS. Her name was Barbara Woodhouse.
And I realized based on all the things she was saying, that this
is where my dad got a lot of hisideas.
And I know he watched a lot of PBS.
And I was like, Oh, my God, thisis weird because.
And, you know, I mean, and whether you're talking about her
or Cesar Millan, they're kind ofbad in different ways, I guess.
But because Cesar Millan's on National Geographic, this one
(34:03):
was on PBS. These are reputable outlets
where we expect to get information that we can trust
and frankly can't. You know, at the end of the day,
it's all about entertainment. Yeah.
What's interesting about Cesar Millan is his sort of new age
twist. Someone like Barbara Woodhouse
and other iterations of her, I don't think had quite so much of
the bent you need to improve yourself to improve your
(34:25):
relationship with your dog. I think it was a little bit more
like yank, pull them, push them,just manipulate them to get her
done, which by the way, works. It's not that like you can't get
behaviors that way. It's just what are the
consequences? What's the fallout?
What's the fallout if you have again, an animal in your home
that literally might be sharing your bed or cuddling up next to
your toddler? It's one thing if you have this
(34:46):
outdoor animal, I guess like like I was saying, you know,
used to be more of the way problem with training using
these more traditional, you could call them methods of
punishment. Again, it's not, it's not that
they can't be effective. They can be effective, but
you're not using a scalpel, you're using a chainsaw and
there can be fallout. The fact is, dogs are so
(35:07):
forgiving by and large, not all of them, but by and large as a
species, the reason that they'reso successful is not because
we're such good dog training. It's because they are willing to
put up with a lot from us because they've been able to
live off of our surpluses for solong.
They've been able to live off 75% of the dogs in the world
don't even live in homes. But they're still living off of
(35:28):
our trash and our and our excessand able to be forgiving and put
up with the craziness that we put them through.
The problem with punishment, it really is that it works, is that
we can get away with it. But we know so much more now
than we've ever known about dogsbefore.
The field of the science of behavior is so rich, and we're
learning more about behavior than any other generation has
(35:50):
known. The Canine Cognition Labs have
exploded over the last few decades.
If you're a dog lover, you're solucky to have this animal that
you can experiment with how to use positive reinforcement in a
way that's effective and to get behaviors you want with this
like, you know, willing participant in your home with
like very low stakes. Look, I talk about like I love
(36:11):
training like tricks and silly stuff, but it's not because I'm
like looking to impress my friends or anything or like I
need to put on a show because like to me, it's like it's like
a really fun way to like watch how my dog is learning.
And I find that that's really truly a hobby that I find
improves both of our, both of our lives.
And dog training as hobby is, isalso sort of like a new idea,
(36:34):
right? People like if you have a horse,
that's a hobby, but like if you,if you're, if you're doing dog
training, it's like you're solving a problem or like trying
to like cross something off yourlist.
I agree with you. It's so funny that we have this
kind of idea in our heads of what dogs should be and how they
should be, when really our dogs are just kind of chill beans
that just hang out and they're more than happy to hang out.
(36:56):
And if we didn't put them in uncomfortable situations, we
probably wouldn't see a lot of the behaviors that we didn't in
the 1st place. And so to your point earlier
that our dogs just adapt to our environments and are not
necessarily a result of our moodor whatever.
If we would just relax a little bit sometimes and enjoy the
(37:18):
moment with our dog, we would have so much more success in
having that relationship and having the reactions that we
want to see from our dog. Just because, as you said, we're
making them comfortable, we're making them happy, and we're
really experiencing those moments.
Yeah. What do you really need for your
dog? Before my dad died, after I was
a dog trainer, he used to get onmy case that my dad, my dog
would bark when people came to the door.
(37:40):
He was like, that's your dog is being bad.
And I was like, my dog is being a dogs.
Dogs evolved to to bark. Wheat bred barkiness into dogs
and it doesn't really bother me.It doesn't bother me either, my
dog barks at the door. It's arbitrary what you think of
as what your dog needs to know and doesn't need to know.
I do think breeding is really, really important.
Ideally, all dogs that are beingbred should be bred for behavior
(38:01):
and should be bred for their ability to live in current
environments that people are wanting to put their dogs in.
Think for some extent, to some extent there is a movement where
that's happening, especially like working in a shelter
environment. You know, you see dogs that are
bred to be fighting dogs, It's not doing anyone any any favors
if you're breeding a dog for anything other health and
temperament in my in my opinion.Health and temperament are the
(38:23):
two top things for me. I think that breeding dogs for
Coke colors or these strange fluffy Frenchies or things like
that, we're we're entering into areas that are potentially
tampering with things that we don't need to be tampering with.
We need to set our dogs up for success in all ways, and
scientifically engineering how they look is not it, guys.
(38:44):
It's just. No, but I think we can engineer
other things about them. I really encourage people, if
you're going to go to a breeder,which I don't think is a bad
idea, I think there's also a stigma about that too.
You should always get a dog froma shelter.
I don't think it's necessarily true.
I think it's really important tomake sure that you're working
with a breeder who is putting inthe time and effort to improve
the breed and make sure that they're breeding for behavior
(39:06):
and temperament and, and making sure to place dogs like in homes
that are that they can guess, make the best guess like of what
home is going to be right for, for which dog and.
Not just pumping them out for cash.
No, and that's what's going to keep dogs out of shelters, too.
It is. Breeding and training my my
opinion, just like go hand in hand and also important to to
(39:28):
find breeders who are, you know,doing training from day one.
Training doesn't happen when youstart doing dog training.
Like dogs are always learning and therefore like we have the
opportunity to be their teachersalways.
But plug for the good breeders, good breeders of the.
Plug for the we need the good breeders.
Well, one more question before we wrap up and that is what
would you like to leave the listeners with today?
(39:49):
Well, definitely, I hope everyone will check out my book.
It's available on Amazon. It's also available as an audio
book. The audio book is, is superb.
And like I said, if you go to anniegrossman.com/book and
upload your receipt, I will sendyou this cute little clicker.
And also I pulled a book off my shelf that's actually not about
dog training, but it's just a really, really wonderful book
that I recommend all the time topeople that most people haven't
(40:11):
heard of. It's called the Millennium Man.
Are you familiar with this book?No, it's this really weird
little book that is. About the science of behavior,
but more specifically about kindof how crazy it is that we've
made such huge strides and so much in helping people
understand so many aspects of science.
And yet, like the science of behavior has kind of been left
behind. Like I said, many people think
(40:32):
it's a pseudoscience and don't really realize that it's
actually should be taught. Probably like in biology
departments, it's sort of weirdly being nestled into
psychology departments a lot of the time.
And it tells the story of Leonardo da Vinci coming back
from the past into I think it's like the year 2000 and kind of
how he goes through the world marveling at all the mistakes
(40:54):
people are making because of a lack of understanding of all the
advances that have been made in so many aspects of science since
his time. But that how how the science of
behavior is still so poorly understood and how like so many
of the problems of the world arebecause of that.
So it's a really weird, fun readthat I think would be enjoyable
for anyone who likes to nerd outabout behavior.
(41:17):
I will have to check that out and then reach out to you so we
can chat about it. Yeah, it was amazing having you
here today. Thank you so much.
And you guys here again is the book How to Train Your Dog with
Love and Science. You guys should definitely check
it out. It's a really good read.
And the Audible book, I will vouch was phenomenal.
If you are into audio books, that is the way to go.
It's so good. It's so weird to.
(41:38):
It's so scary to the idea of someone else reading your work.
When I actually listened to it, I was like, thank God, this
person is so good. Her name is Eunice Wong, and she
just she just really nailed it so it.
Was she really did a great job? Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Well, thank you for having me.
Yeah, absolutely. If you guys have any questions,
please feel free to reach out toAnnie via her website and check
(42:00):
out the School for Dogs and we will see you guys next week on
Straight Up Dog Talk.
Every dog is different. That's actually our show models.
Every dog is different and everyhuman is too.
And so I like for people to not focus on breed so much either.
But most people are very breed focused.
They know what breed their dogs are.
(00:22):
Welcome to Straight Up Dog Talk,the place where no one feels
alone in the mess and the magic of dog life.
Today I'm joined by Annie Grossman, dog trainer, educator,
and author of How to Train Your Dog with Love and Science.
In this episode, we're diving into the stories behind the
book, the dog who started it all, and the powerful shift that
happens when we leave with curiosity, compassion, and
(00:43):
connection. Whether you're just starting out
or you've been in the training world for a while, this is one
of those conversations that remind you why we do this work.
Let's get into it. We have a copy of her book right
here. Start us out today by telling us
a little bit about why you started writing and the dog that
inspired you. It's.
Actually started out as a writerright out of college.
(01:05):
I started working at newspapers.I was writing a lot of like
lifestyle kind of stuff. And then around 2008 thousand 9,
the the economy changed, the media world changed.
You know, there was definitely like a move away from print
media, which is what I was doing.
And I was like, I think I just want to find something else to
do with my life. And you know, I'd always loved
(01:26):
dogs. I'd been a dog Walker, you know,
from the age of like 10. I do not recommend hiring a 10
year old dog Walker by the way, but I was, I grew up in New York
City and I used to watch walk myneighbor's dogs for a dollar a
walk. I always loved training my dog.
I really didn't know what I was doing, but it was fun.
I, I had this wonderful little Yorkie poo named Amos, who was
(01:46):
the light of my life and I lovedspending time with him.
I remember I was spending a lot of time at the dog park doing a
lot of soul searching, trying tofigure out what to do with with
my life. And I was like, I just love
being at the dog park and watching dogs and talking to
people about their dogs and learning about dogs.
Maybe I should do something withdogs.
And I ended up getting into a conversation at the dog park one
day with someone who father had just graduated from the Karen
(02:08):
Pryor Academy for animal, animalTraining and behavior.
I had looked into some programs and they all seemed too eager to
take my money. But the more that I talked to
him and then I and then I got intouch with his father, the more
I felt like, OK, this seems likea really a really legit
vocational school. And I applied.
I really knew nothing about dog training, which I think is kind
of unusual. I think a lot of people go into
(02:30):
Karen Pryor Academy with a lot of experience under their belt
to kind of get that accreditation and like finesse
their skills. I went in just a total blank
slate, really found it transformative.
Not only did get me, you know, super excited about this idea of
having a career working with dogs, but it also just made me
see the whole world anew becauseit really introduced me to the
(02:52):
science of behavior and animal training as they teach it as a
technology of that science. I, I don't think I was aware
that there was a science of behavior at best, maybe I
thought it was kind of like a pseudoscience, but I, I got
really interested in hurting outon where did this come from?
Who figured this out? How did this develop?
(03:13):
And that was, that was like 2010.
I just kind of started reading everything I could get my hands
on about, about the development of the science of behavior over
the last century or so. And when I graduated Karen Pryor
Academy, I was like, well, I guess I'm gonna go be a dog
trainer now. Couldn't quite figure out how to
(03:33):
get started. There was no one around who
seemed like a, you know, obviousmentor that I wanted to work
with. And I got it in my head, if I
had a space, like I feel like ifI had a space, people could come
to. So much about training, I
believe, is the environment. The environment dictates
behavior. And I felt like I really wanted
to have an environment I could control and bring people to and
have essentially a school. So I moved all my furniture out
(03:55):
of my Manhattan living room and put in a Murphy bed and started
what I called School for the Dogs and had group classes and
did private lessons. And for me, it was really key to
like having that space sort of helped me conceive of how I
wanted to exist in the world as a dog trainer and how I wanted
to work with people. It was an amazing success right
(04:18):
off the bat and I expanded to progressively larger locations
over the next few years and ultimately ended up in this
beautiful two-story facility on E 7th St. in Manhattan.
I think at its height, we had something like 15, 15 trainers
and, you know, we're seeing hundreds of hundreds of dogs
every month. And all the while, while I was
(04:39):
running this business, I was also in my head writing this
book about how to train dogs andabout understanding the science
of behavior through dog trainingand sort of trying to convey to
people how dog training, yes, it's about getting your dog to
walk nicely on leash and not be on the carpet and not jump on
people and this, that and the other, but that.
(04:59):
There are so many lessons that we can learn through training
our dogs about how we exist in the world and how we relate to
each other, how we are trained by forces beyond our control.
I'm so excited the book is out there.
Also because I think dog training in a lot of ways is
unfortunately a luxury. Certainly doing it in New York
City was not something that I could easily provide to people
(05:23):
on a budget. Had to had to often charge more
than I wanted to charge because so much of what we were doing
was on site too, That limited the amount of people we could
work with. So I'm, I'm just glad this book
is out there because I feel likeit's low price point.
It's like $12.00 or whatever. I don't think it's a majorly
comprehensive guide, but my goalwas to write something that
would just people's point of view and get them started on the
(05:45):
right foot, get them asking the right questions, get them
finding the right people to workwith and sort of seeing things
in a way that I hope is refreshing.
And that that, you know, clears away some of the static out
there about about dogs and training.
You did a beautiful job of that in the book, touched on a lot of
things here that I want to touchon today.
So that's phenomenal. First of all, I was also a 12
(06:07):
year old dog Walker, so at Pet Sitter I started a very young
age and I'm also a really huge dog nerd.
I'm really excited to have this conversation with you today
because I feel like they get a lot deeper when we both have the
background in it, but we also have our unique individual
viewpoints on things. So it opens up the discussion a
(06:28):
little bit more for the listeners, which is always super
fun. It's something that you just
touched on there in your little spiel was accessibility and cost
point, because nowadays that's like a huge thing, dog training,
being able to train your dog is a privilege.
It's the world just keeps getting more and more and more
expensive and people who want totrain their dogs go and they
(06:52):
check out videos on YouTube and they stumble on to somebody that
you mentioned quite frequently in your book, which is Cesar
Milan. And then they end up putting
there's dogs in these bad situations without even
realizing that they're doing it.And now of course, we have to go
back through learning things andfiguring out what we did wrong
because they've created bad scenarios in their home without
(07:15):
even realizing it. And I think that it's so
terrible that there's so much content out there that's like
that because it causes there to be so much conflict in our homes
and put animals in danger of losing their lives, putting
people in danger of getting bit or harmed by dogs just because
dogs are scared. And I really wish that there was
(07:37):
more regulation on those kinds of things and how they're
available and accessible and whois allowed to do it, because it
is dangerous in so many different ways.
And I don't think that people think about that.
That was one of the reasons thatI started this whole thing.
It's dangerous. It's a completely unregulated
field, especially in America. I have a podcast, so same name.
(07:59):
It's book How to Train Your dog with Love and Science.
And last year I did an episode where I was calling around to
buy shock collars. Wasn't actually buying it, but I
was just trying to see if you want to buy a shock or what
happens if you just ask basic questions.
The things these people on the phone said were just ridiculous.
At one point I said to one person, I think I think it was
maybe at chewy.com. Whoever answered the phone at
chewy.com said, OK, if I, if my,if I have my five year old
(08:20):
daughter do this with me, with my dog.
And she was like, no, no, no, no, no.
I think that should be no problem.
I've gotten the, I've gotten thefeedback that, that my book has
too much criticism of, of the dog whisperer and some other dog
trainers, especially in the world of positive reinforcement
dog training, where it's all about encouraging the behaviors
you like. There can be the idea of like,
(08:42):
you shouldn't put anyone else down.
But I do agree with you. I think it's really dangerous.
I think it's dangerous because so much information out there
that is free and accessible is at best dated and useless.
And at worst, yeah, it can really cause harm to dogs and to
people. And that's why, you know, rather
than pointing out every example of poor dog training out there,
(09:04):
I kind of use Cesar Millan as like a stand in for, you know,
all the bad dog training out there as an example.
And sort of as a way to say like, OK, let's step back and
think about the science. Let's think about dog training
as it relates to the science of behavior.
Because it's a lot harder to argue about science than it is
(09:25):
about so many of these kind of opaque things that people like
he are saying about, you know, energy and dominance and, and
things that are hard, hard to define.
Energy for me is a really big pet peeve kind of word because I
feel like so many people just sort of take for granted as if
energy is so important with dog training.
It's like, OK, but what does that actually look like?
(09:46):
Well, what does it mean, right? Because energy could be so many
different things. Is it the time and energy like
effort that you're putting into it?
Or is it the state of mind that you're in?
Or is it the feelings of the dogand how they're responding to
whatever it is that you're doing?
I mean energy could be so many different things and without.
So many, so many things. And I think we're so egocentric
(10:10):
and thinking that my dog's problems are my problems.
I do blame a lot of that on likethe reality TV world where it's
all about, you know, the metamorphosis of the person.
And you know, I think of the book, I can say it like, you
know, a lot of these episodes might as well be about kitchen
renovation, like it's about finding the lesson in yourself
as it relates to your dog. Whereas I would say to people
(10:32):
all the time coming when they would come to school for the
dog, your dog's issues, they might be, they might be because
of you. But more often than not, like
the people bringing in their dogs who have real issues to a
dog trainer are really incredible people who are taking
that time and effort to find thehelp they need for their dog and
their dogs issues are most likely not because of them.
(10:54):
If we could just get rid of thattrope, that would make me happy.
I'm salty with social media because it's all about look at
how beautiful our Instagram lifelooks and it's really not like
that. But I agree with you because the
people that come two dog trainers are usually not the
problem. There is something deeper that
is going on there. I know that from personal
(11:14):
experience because my dog fits is the reason that I became a
dog trainer. If I was a vet tech before and a
pet sitter and dog Walker and I did all of the dog things all of
my life. But when I got him and he became
this difficult dog, I realized that I needed to change some
things in my life. And he really made me look at
things differently with dogs andlearn how to understand behavior
(11:38):
as a science and really look at the depth of character that dogs
actually have. The hardest part for me is
somebody who's loved dogs and been involved with dogs all my
life is that I never saw dogs not being unique individuals
that had thoughts and personalities of their own.
That just was second nature to me.
So when I come across all these people that don't understand
(12:01):
that dogs are unique individualswith thoughts and feelings of
their owns, I'm always like, wait, what?
That doesn't make sense to me because it's just like any other
living creature. We have to go through the
motions of living and without usas humans to take care of them
and feed them and give them a place to sleep and all that
(12:21):
stuff. They would find their own way to
do that because they're dogs. They understand how resources
work. It just floors me that people
are like, well, I don't understand why he would do that
or why would he do that to me. We take things so personally
when it's it's really not about us at all.
It's really just how they think.Take things personally.
And also we do so much projection.
(12:43):
I remember I had one client who was always talking about like
how spoiled rotten her dog was and what a diva her dog was.
And I was like, I don't experience your dog that way,
but you do. And I can't argue with you about
it. It's true.
And just just the fact that we're so used to saying, you
know, good dogs and bad dogs, the word good and bad, attaching
it talk like dogs aren't good orbad.
Like they're just really good atbeing dogs.
(13:03):
Like they're just doing what works.
And sometimes aggression is whatworks, right?
And that's that's why we have aggressive dogs there.
But it's so easy for people to put some sort of agenda behind
it. You know, my dog is being
spiteful or stubborn or this or that.
So that's something else I try and do in the book is like, how
can we, like, think about this in a more objective way?
(13:24):
You know, as part of the research for the book, I did
dive pretty deep into the Cesar Millan Ovra.
I think one of my favorite partsof the book is where I point out
how he goes on and on about Oprah and he was on Oprah and he
but he talks about Oprah as the way to get your dog to behave is
to be Oprah. You know, you need to have that
kind of Oprah energy and then your dog will actually listen to
(13:46):
you and everybody respects Oprahand Oprah doesn't have to prove
who she is. He goes on about other people
too weirdly, like Cleopatra be more Cleopatra.
But then but then he actually goes and works with Oprah and
her dog and he's taking her to task for having a dog who
doesn't listen to her. It's like even Oprah, he's like
disappointed with how Oprah, Oprah is with her own dog, which
is just like, I mean, it's entertaining, but this is not
(14:09):
actually like, helpful information.
I've never told a client to be more Oprah.
It's phenomenal that there are so many instances in your book
where you show the backtrack of that.
But you do a really good job of saying this is exactly what he
portrayed or this is exactly what I witnessed and then this
is how I broke it down and can show you a different point of
(14:31):
view on this, which is what a lot of people really need.
Because we have been force fed this culture of dogs so much
that we have all of these expectations and these beliefs
of dogs that are not actually true.
Yeah. And I also think we tend to
think about dog training as verylike prescriptive.
(14:51):
You need to follow this recipe sitting next to a shelf of dog
training books. And most of them make me want to
fall asleep because they're likerecipe books.
OK, this is how you do, this is how you do house training.
This is how you do down. And I guess there's a place for
that. But I wanted to write something
that felt more like a story, that felt more like you want to
actually follow the thread of where this is going and make you
(15:12):
actually like think in a larger way so that you can then tackle,
tackle those issues one by one from a point of view that makes
sense. Even if I don't go into detail
about what specifically to do when your dog is jumping, but
that you can use, use this sort of point of view shift to
approach that on your own. And, and like you said, not
(15:33):
everyone is going to be able to afford a dog trainer or have
access to a dog trainer. But I, I almost think of it like
exercising or eating. Ideally, everyone kind of knows
the basics there. And then if you're lucky, you
can find a really good coach to hold your hand, help you refine
what you're doing, someone who'sfurther down the path than you
are, which is another thing. Dog trainers are not born with
(15:54):
special talents. And that is another myth that's
out there. A couple months ago, I, I saw a
girl I went to high school with at another friend's house and I
was hanging out with her dog. And she was like, my dog is just
drawn to you. You have special abilities.
And I was like, I don't think that's true, but I, but I think
it's like the sticky idea. You want to see me as a magical
(16:14):
dog person when in fact the bestdog trainer are not born with
special energy. They've just figured out how to
clear away the static. If you can find somebody who
knows more than you do and ideally have some certifications
only just cook. We were saying that's like it's
it's such an unregulated industry.
The truth is, I think a lot of the certifications don't even
mean anything, but at least it'ssomething.
(16:35):
I'm studying for the CPD TKA. I haven't completed it.
I can actually show you guys right here.
Here is all 300 of my flash cards for the test.
It's, it's a whole thing, but I have taken other things like Kim
Brophy's legs course. I've taken Michael Chicaccio's
aggressive dog course. I have, like you, had the entire
(16:56):
bookshelf of books that I have read or listened to.
I have had many conversations like this.
And obviously through 30 years of working with animals, I have
obtained a certain level of knowledge.
But I agree with you. It's not so much that we have
this special aura or these special skills, it's that we
(17:16):
understand dogs and we know how to appropriately approach them
in a way that not necessarily I want.
I don't want to make it like a blanket statement kind of thing,
but we know how to approach dogsfor the most part in a way that
almost every dog is going to be receptive to it because that's
how they're designed. And we understand that about the
(17:38):
nature of dogs. Whereas everybody else is like
here let me, let me sniff my hand, sniff my hand.
Well, I mean, I wish every kid had an hour of education on dog
body language. I mean every adult too.
But if we could start earlier. Because you don't.
You don't need a semester of it.You just need a little bit of
information to be able to spot some basic ways in which dogs
(18:00):
are telling us they're uncomfortable.
And if you can tell if a dog is uncomfortable, you can change
the situation, get the dog out of the situation, etc, etc.
Which is going to make it much less likely that you know,
you're going to get bit in the face and your dog is actually
going to have to be put down andall of that.
Instead, you know, talk about inthe book how like once you kind
of can read dog body language, it becomes really painful to, I
(18:21):
don't know, watch the dog whisperer or even even like
scroll through Instagram, you know, especially on like
Halloween, Halloween time, it's always like all these dogs
dressed up looking like looking like they're being tortured and
people are like, you know, look how cute benching look.
Or even just in daily life. You go to the farmers market and
there's all these dogs that are like, oh.
My God, why am I? Here, you think that you're
doing something nice for your dog, but you're actually
(18:43):
stressing your dog the fuck out.Yeah, and dog trainers in
general, tell me maybe you don'tagree with this, but my
experience of most dog trainers is they don't want to talk about
the science with clients. I do think it's a good idea to
stay away from jargon, but but Ialso think that science seems
scary where I've always felt theopposite.
I've always felt like, like you can, you can understand like
(19:04):
classical conditioning and operating conditioning pretty
well. I can give you like a 10 minute
education on, on those two things.
And the book, you know, I talk about like classical condition
conditioning is basically learning by association.
Operant conditioning is basically learning by
consequence. And just like just a quick
education and, and, and like a fifth grade level education.
And that aspect of the science Ithink goes a long way.
(19:26):
And especially what goes a long way, I think is thinking about
how dogs are feeling and how we can change those feelings using
classical condition or AKA learning by association.
When you're starting out at least, it's so much more
important to help a dog feel good than it is to think about
their behaviors. And we tend to think about dog
training as sit downstairs, leave it, drop it.
I've been working at the ASPCA for the last month with a lot of
(19:49):
dogs who come in like really shut down.
And a lot of what the pro trainers are doing for the first
5-6 hours they might be spendingwith that dog is feeding the dog
cheese. You have professional dog
trainers there feeding the dog cheese because you just want the
dog to feel kind of good about being there, being around these
new people, and that's. That that can be dog training
right there. When I'm walking with my girls,
(20:11):
I have two little girls and theylove saying hi to dogs on the
street all the time. They go up to a dog and they're
like, can I, can I pet your dog?And they know to ask.
And then the person is like, yes, Stella sit.
And I'm like, no, no, no, Stella, just be cute.
You have these two little girls coming up to the dog.
New York City street. Crazy enough.
Don't start asking the dog to dothese behaviors.
They may or may not know in thisstressful context.
(20:33):
Usually they haven't practiced doing it in the stressful
context, strangers etc etc and you just want your dog to feel
good about children approaching so that's kind of good news.
Telling people giving your dog cheese is dog training I guess.
I completely agree with you. I think the science part is
super important. I actually every single one of
my clients, I always tell them Iwould like for you to get Kim
(20:54):
Brophy's Meet Your Dog. And if you don't do anything
else, I want you to read the chapter on your dog's breeds.
So if it's a guardian breed or if it's a hunting breed or
whatever, I want you to read that chapter and I want you to
learn about some of the behaviors and some of the traits
and some of the stuff that you are probably seeing and don't
recognize what it is. Almost every single client comes
(21:16):
back and they're like, yeah, my dog does do that.
That makes so much more sense. Or I I see that for what it is
now and then they start recognizing it in their
day-to-day live. But also to your point, little
things for us are big things fordogs.
And I always tell my clients that too.
You cannot just do this one thing at home and then go out
and add 15 people and a hot dog truck and expect your dog to be
(21:40):
like, Oh yeah, I still know how to do that thing.
Expectation levels are way too high, and until we teach people
how to kind of step their dogs through things, that's where
people are going to continue to struggle.
Yeah, and a lot of times people want to start much later down
the line. I had a family member whose dog
was aggressive with my dog and they were like, you know, OK,
tell me how to stop this. As if like, it was like a quick
(22:03):
fix. And I was like, well, yeah.
I was like, you know, we had like, we got to go big picture
here. And Are you ready to do that?
I can't. There's not.
Just like, you know, some magic key to to this.
Yeah, of course, no forwards. Yeah, yeah.
I mean, of course you get to thepoint where like management is
key. Fortunately, we are able to
control our dogs worlds to a great extent.
(22:24):
I do think it's harder for in a lot of ways for city dog owners,
especially out on the street. You can't control everything
that's going on in the way that you can if if you have an acre
of property. Having mostly worked with urban
dogs for the last 15 years, I really believe that the people
who do put in the work and dogs,you know, who can are able to
(22:44):
live in the city. Certainly like some dogs are
never going to be OK city dogs. But when it, when it's a good
fit and someone is, is putting in the work, you have dogs who
really can be pretty bulletproof, but really can live
very, very rich and interesting lives more so often than dogs
who live in in the suburbs wherethey're not getting out very
much seeing other dogs. I just spent two weeks with my
(23:05):
dog in the suburbs actually, andI watched her become more barky
with every every person she saw.She started barking at because
even on a walk, we'd see maybe two people and I could see
aggression and her. And it was a reminder to me of
of how lucky, how lucky we are that, you know, we have these
opportunities every day to kind of like socialize her.
We tend to think about socialization as something
(23:25):
that's just for puppies. But really, you know, dogs are
learning to feel okay about the world around them all the time,
ideally. And, and all of that I think of
is best socialization. I do really like that book.
I get hesitant about about putting too much stock in breeds
for a few reasons. 1 is so many dogs are a mix of so many
breeds. And another thing is you might
have a dog who really is the prototype of, I don't know, a
(23:47):
Bernese mountain dog or border collie or whatever, but you
might have one who's an extreme on one side or the other.
And who's to say who's to say what you're going to end up
with? Actually, one of my good friends
has we call her the couch potatoborder collie.
I've also known dogs who you would think of are more lazy
dogs who are super vigilant and on top of things or so I think
(24:07):
that the the the Brophy approach.
Like I said, I like that book, but I also have some hesitations
about being too breedest. I would say especially because I
think some people make very broad ideas about breeds, say
like, oh, I got this breed because I read in this, you
know, breed book that it's good with kids.
At the end of the day, my personal approach is to look at
them each as individuals. And secondly, to think about
(24:29):
like them as dogs because as dogs, most dogs have more in
common with other dogs than theydon't.
And most dogs, I think, also have more in common with people
than we we give them credit for it.
One point I try and make in the book is if you think about all
the species who've ever existed in the world over the last
whatever, 4.5 billion years, only 1% of all species still
(24:51):
exist. 99% of species have gone extinct.
And the fact that not only are dogs and humans not extinct, not
only are we vertebrates, mammals, we live in the same
climate, have similar dietary needs, we live on land, we have
actually so much in common with dogs that I don't think it's
that crazy to start with thinking about yourself before
(25:12):
you start thinking about my dog as a border terrier.
Thinking about my dog is an animal that exists on this earth
and is operating under the same laws of science, whether the
science is gravity or or the science of behavior or whatever.
Starting with all the things we have in common with them and
then going to all the things alldogs have in common.
Personally, in my approach, I tend to think about breed like
(25:32):
3rd, 4th or 5th. Maybe right when I started
working on my book and I was like, this is a really good
book. Maybe I don't need to write a
book. Maybe.
Maybe she already wrote it. It's a really good book.
I am also very much the same. Every dog is different.
That's actually our show model is Every dog is different and
every human is too. And so I like for people to not
focus on breed so much either. But I also find that if people,
like you said with science and most people are very breed
(25:54):
focused, they know what breed their dogs are, it's very much
easier to get them in line with this is how we're going to move
forward. This is why we're doing this.
If they understand these are thecharacteristics.
And that's why I'm talking to you about this.
Not because your dog is a bordercollie, not because your dog is
a Balanois, not because your dogis a German Shepherd, but
(26:15):
because because these are more tendon in your breed of dog.
But like you said, it might not be the case.
You might have a lazy malinois, you might have a lazy border
collie, you might have a really high strung Chihuahua that likes
to chase balls and play games instead of sit in your lap and
bark at the neighbor or something.
(26:36):
There are definitely big differences, but for most people
it's a good way to at least be like OK, here's our baseline,
but this is only our baseline. Let's build from this and see
which direction. We go from here.
It's like a way a way in. There's a lot of jargon, a lot
of terminology, a lot of big words.
Even management can be a word that is scary when we talk to
our clients because they're like, well, why wait?
(26:58):
What does that mean? What does management mean?
Why are we, what are we managing?
It's like, OK, well, it's reallynot that big of a deal.
It just means we're putting up ababy gate here.
Yeah, Yeah, in the book, I guessyou could say.
But I in working with clients, Ideveloped sort of a framework
that I found helpful, which I call the dog training triad.
All of it's about environment inthe end, but breaking it down
(27:18):
into what I call management timing and rewards.
And I think of as management as basically like everything you
can buy on Amazon to change yourdog's behavior, like everything
that you can like do from the outside in to to change the way
your dog is existing in the world.
That might be a baby cake. I, I use the term management.
I'll extend it to work to eat toys.
How can I manage my dog's energy?
(27:39):
I'll extend it to muzzle, of course.
How can I absolutely keep my dogfrom from biting management
might be how much exercise am I getting the dog?
And then within that also part of the environment is, is how
we're rewarding behaviors. And I think it's really
important to figure out what is rewarding to your dog, what you
can use to reinforce behaviors you like.
Again, sort of a pleasantly easyway in, I think, right?
(28:02):
Figure out what your dog likes. Like you could probably think of
you know 5 things off the top ofyour head.
But it's a fun experiment right?To figure out.
Like sure. Is what current currency you can
use, and I try and give some examples of exercises you can
use to figure it out. But sure, start with cheese, hot
dogs, whatever. Then the third part is how
you're gonna be able to give that stuff with really good
(28:23):
timing, which does take some CL,does take some finesse in some
cases. But in other cases, like we were
saying, if you're just trying tocreate an association, sometimes
it really is just about raining,raining, raining down the
cheese, make it rain. Sometimes the timing actually
even isn't that important. But when it is important, that's
what's so cool about like the technology behind the training
(28:44):
and the development of clicker training.
Very first time I saw a clicker,I was like, that's so silly.
I don't need a thing to train mydog.
I don't need one of those. And now of course, I think, Oh
my God, it's so amazing how thisliterally simple little piece of
technology could do so much and has so much history behind it
(29:05):
and not battery operated. I could go on and on about how
much I love the curse, Although of course I'm also like, if you
don't want to use one, you don'thave to use one.
The optional, but but I think that it's really cool that this
technology developed and I and Itry and tell the story of the
clicker. I actually, I'll share a share a
link with you there. I did a history of clicker
training, like a 20 minute history of clicker training that
(29:25):
leads to some of the stuff in the book but.
Yeah, do share it and we'll share it in the episode notes so
that everybody can do it. And that's the clicker I held up
here. This your team sent me this
clicker along with the book. And one of the things that I
really like about it 1 is that it has the thing so that it can
go around here and so that it's easy accessible.
But also, I'm gonna click it foryou guys hear that there are so
(29:49):
many different clickers out there and some of them are very
aggressive and very abrasive. So make sure when you're
choosing a clicker, if you guys decide to use a clicker with
your dog, you pick one that doesnot scare your dog.
Because we have used so many clickers over the years and I
Fitz used to hide under the table when I would get the
clicker. Out yeah, yeah, I mean some dogs
(30:10):
it's never going to be the rightsolution.
You know, clicker training as sure, you know too, like it's
it's a term that refers to basically basically marker
training, but you don't actuallyhave to use a clicker.
You could word use a word like yes, you could use a whistle or
whatever. I really like this.
Happen to have one on my desk. This little clicker makes like a
tiny little tiny little noise. Tiny, tiny.
(30:32):
Love it 'cause you could just like slip it in your pocket.
And actually on my website, anniegrossman.com, if you upload
a receipt of having bought my book, I will send you it fits in
the mail, send you a little clicker.
Very cool, that's always good. People love to try out new
things and they love it and theycan get something for free.
So grab Annies book and grab a flea free clicker while you're
at it. One of the other things I want
(30:53):
to talk about quick before we wrap up here in your book, I
loved that you used real life experiences, but I also love
that you talked about your dad and how he trained his dog and
your experience with him and howthat turned some light bulbs on
for you. I think that it's really
important in the evolution of dog training to reflect on those
(31:13):
things and how differently dogs were maybe when we were kids
versus how they are now for our kids.
I just thought that it was really neat that you went
through that whole thing with your dad because he comes up a
few times in the book and the whole anecdotal training, and I
think it was a TV show or whatever that he had been
referencing. It was really neat to see you
(31:34):
go, OK, wait, what can I learn from this and how can I break
this down and see if this is even accurate and why did this
work for him? So I thought that was really
neat. Yeah, I think it shows how
little people understand that there is a science of behavior.
Dad was extremely, extremely bright and very kind, could give
(31:55):
some examples of just like what a kind of like, lovely, funny,
kind person he was. And he was like really
interested in science, but I don't think it ever really
occurred to him that like science had anything to do with
with dogs. And he also came up in a time
where, you know, dogs have only been like inside animals for 75
years or so, actually largely because of vaccines and like
(32:17):
flea protection. We, we like, we don't think
about how important that stuff is, but the fact that we can
have dogs who are vaccinated andnot full of fleas has led to a
lot more dogs and homes. So, I mean, he, he grew up in a
time where people were just sortof starting to bring dogs into
their homes. And he very much saw himself as
the dog's master. That was the word that he would
(32:38):
use. And that there was, you know,
this clear power dynamic and, and took for granted that you
had to use, you had to use forceand punishment.
And I think he would have, like,rolled his eyes at any sort of
conversation about, like, the ethics of it or the, you know,
the morality of it, which I think, you know, rubbed off on
me in a way. I think before I became a dog
(32:59):
trainer, I would have probably rolled my eyes to at a lot of
the conversations out there about, about how we treat dogs.
But now, of course, I think, like, it's so important,
especially if you have kids, to show how you can change behavior
without force and punishment andcoercion, Like how we can take
care of these animals in our midst in ways that are both
(33:20):
impactful, effective and gentle and safe.
But I don't think that was necessarily obvious to me from
the get go, just based on where I came came from after my dad
died. And I talk about this in the
book. I was on YouTube and I watched
this video of this woman from the early 1980s who had ATV show
(33:41):
on PBS. Her name was Barbara Woodhouse.
And I realized based on all the things she was saying, that this
is where my dad got a lot of hisideas.
And I know he watched a lot of PBS.
And I was like, Oh, my God, thisis weird because.
And, you know, I mean, and whether you're talking about her
or Cesar Millan, they're kind ofbad in different ways, I guess.
But because Cesar Millan's on National Geographic, this one
(34:03):
was on PBS. These are reputable outlets
where we expect to get information that we can trust
and frankly can't. You know, at the end of the day,
it's all about entertainment. Yeah.
What's interesting about Cesar Millan is his sort of new age
twist. Someone like Barbara Woodhouse
and other iterations of her, I don't think had quite so much of
the bent you need to improve yourself to improve your
(34:25):
relationship with your dog. I think it was a little bit more
like yank, pull them, push them,just manipulate them to get her
done, which by the way, works. It's not that like you can't get
behaviors that way. It's just what are the
consequences? What's the fallout?
What's the fallout if you have again, an animal in your home
that literally might be sharing your bed or cuddling up next to
your toddler? It's one thing if you have this
(34:46):
outdoor animal, I guess like like I was saying, you know,
used to be more of the way problem with training using
these more traditional, you could call them methods of
punishment. Again, it's not, it's not that
they can't be effective. They can be effective, but
you're not using a scalpel, you're using a chainsaw and
there can be fallout. The fact is, dogs are so
(35:07):
forgiving by and large, not all of them, but by and large as a
species, the reason that they'reso successful is not because
we're such good dog training. It's because they are willing to
put up with a lot from us because they've been able to
live off of our surpluses for solong.
They've been able to live off 75% of the dogs in the world
don't even live in homes. But they're still living off of
(35:28):
our trash and our and our excessand able to be forgiving and put
up with the craziness that we put them through.
The problem with punishment, it really is that it works, is that
we can get away with it. But we know so much more now
than we've ever known about dogsbefore.
The field of the science of behavior is so rich, and we're
learning more about behavior than any other generation has
(35:50):
known. The Canine Cognition Labs have
exploded over the last few decades.
If you're a dog lover, you're solucky to have this animal that
you can experiment with how to use positive reinforcement in a
way that's effective and to get behaviors you want with this
like, you know, willing participant in your home with
like very low stakes. Look, I talk about like I love
(36:11):
training like tricks and silly stuff, but it's not because I'm
like looking to impress my friends or anything or like I
need to put on a show because like to me, it's like it's like
a really fun way to like watch how my dog is learning.
And I find that that's really truly a hobby that I find
improves both of our, both of our lives.
And dog training as hobby is, isalso sort of like a new idea,
(36:34):
right? People like if you have a horse,
that's a hobby, but like if you,if you're, if you're doing dog
training, it's like you're solving a problem or like trying
to like cross something off yourlist.
I agree with you. It's so funny that we have this
kind of idea in our heads of what dogs should be and how they
should be, when really our dogs are just kind of chill beans
that just hang out and they're more than happy to hang out.
(36:56):
And if we didn't put them in uncomfortable situations, we
probably wouldn't see a lot of the behaviors that we didn't in
the 1st place. And so to your point earlier
that our dogs just adapt to our environments and are not
necessarily a result of our moodor whatever.
If we would just relax a little bit sometimes and enjoy the
(37:18):
moment with our dog, we would have so much more success in
having that relationship and having the reactions that we
want to see from our dog. Just because, as you said, we're
making them comfortable, we're making them happy, and we're
really experiencing those moments.
Yeah. What do you really need for your
dog? Before my dad died, after I was
a dog trainer, he used to get onmy case that my dad, my dog
would bark when people came to the door.
(37:40):
He was like, that's your dog is being bad.
And I was like, my dog is being a dogs.
Dogs evolved to to bark. Wheat bred barkiness into dogs
and it doesn't really bother me.It doesn't bother me either, my
dog barks at the door. It's arbitrary what you think of
as what your dog needs to know and doesn't need to know.
I do think breeding is really, really important.
Ideally, all dogs that are beingbred should be bred for behavior
(38:01):
and should be bred for their ability to live in current
environments that people are wanting to put their dogs in.
Think for some extent, to some extent there is a movement where
that's happening, especially like working in a shelter
environment. You know, you see dogs that are
bred to be fighting dogs, It's not doing anyone any any favors
if you're breeding a dog for anything other health and
temperament in my in my opinion.Health and temperament are the
(38:23):
two top things for me. I think that breeding dogs for
Coke colors or these strange fluffy Frenchies or things like
that, we're we're entering into areas that are potentially
tampering with things that we don't need to be tampering with.
We need to set our dogs up for success in all ways, and
scientifically engineering how they look is not it, guys.
(38:44):
It's just. No, but I think we can engineer
other things about them. I really encourage people, if
you're going to go to a breeder,which I don't think is a bad
idea, I think there's also a stigma about that too.
You should always get a dog froma shelter.
I don't think it's necessarily true.
I think it's really important tomake sure that you're working
with a breeder who is putting inthe time and effort to improve
the breed and make sure that they're breeding for behavior
(39:06):
and temperament and, and making sure to place dogs like in homes
that are that they can guess, make the best guess like of what
home is going to be right for, for which dog and.
Not just pumping them out for cash.
No, and that's what's going to keep dogs out of shelters, too.
It is. Breeding and training my my
opinion, just like go hand in hand and also important to to
(39:28):
find breeders who are, you know,doing training from day one.
Training doesn't happen when youstart doing dog training.
Like dogs are always learning and therefore like we have the
opportunity to be their teachersalways.
But plug for the good breeders, good breeders of the.
Plug for the we need the good breeders.
Well, one more question before we wrap up and that is what
would you like to leave the listeners with today?
(39:49):
Well, definitely, I hope everyone will check out my book.
It's available on Amazon. It's also available as an audio
book. The audio book is, is superb.
And like I said, if you go to anniegrossman.com/book and
upload your receipt, I will sendyou this cute little clicker.
And also I pulled a book off my shelf that's actually not about
dog training, but it's just a really, really wonderful book
that I recommend all the time topeople that most people haven't
(40:11):
heard of. It's called the Millennium Man.
Are you familiar with this book?No, it's this really weird
little book that is. About the science of behavior,
but more specifically about kindof how crazy it is that we've
made such huge strides and so much in helping people
understand so many aspects of science.
And yet, like the science of behavior has kind of been left
behind. Like I said, many people think
(40:32):
it's a pseudoscience and don't really realize that it's
actually should be taught. Probably like in biology
departments, it's sort of weirdly being nestled into
psychology departments a lot of the time.
And it tells the story of Leonardo da Vinci coming back
from the past into I think it's like the year 2000 and kind of
how he goes through the world marveling at all the mistakes
(40:54):
people are making because of a lack of understanding of all the
advances that have been made in so many aspects of science since
his time. But that how how the science of
behavior is still so poorly understood and how like so many
of the problems of the world arebecause of that.
So it's a really weird, fun readthat I think would be enjoyable
for anyone who likes to nerd outabout behavior.
(41:17):
I will have to check that out and then reach out to you so we
can chat about it. Yeah, it was amazing having you
here today. Thank you so much.
And you guys here again is the book How to Train Your Dog with
Love and Science. You guys should definitely check
it out. It's a really good read.
And the Audible book, I will vouch was phenomenal.
If you are into audio books, that is the way to go.
It's so good. It's so weird to.
(41:38):
It's so scary to the idea of someone else reading your work.
When I actually listened to it, I was like, thank God, this
person is so good. Her name is Eunice Wong, and she
just she just really nailed it so it.
Was she really did a great job? Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Well, thank you for having me.
Yeah, absolutely. If you guys have any questions,
please feel free to reach out toAnnie via her website and check
(42:00):
out the School for Dogs and we will see you guys next week on
Straight Up Dog Talk.
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