September 24, 2025 • 44 mins
We call them family—but legally, pets are still considered property. And that outdated status has real consequences, from shelter policies to custody battles.
In this episode of Straight Up Dog Talk, Em talks with animal law mediator and author Suzana Gartner about how legal definitions are holding back real progress in animal welfare—and how her A-CAP framework offers a practical path forward.
You’ll Learn:
How the “property” status of pets leads to tragic outcomes in shelters and courts
What Suzana’s A-CAP philosophy proposes as a new model for animal welfare policy
- What everyday pet parents can do to influence legal and cultural change
Press play for a grounded, hopeful conversation about what needs to shift—and how you can help move the needle for animals everywhere.
Learn more and take action: suzanagartner.com
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Email straightupdogtalk@gmail.com to get in touch with Em
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
We think of pets as family, but in the eyes of the law, they're
still property. What does this mean for their
future? Welcome to Straight Up Dog Talk,
the podcast helping burned out pet parents who feel stuck with
their pup. Finally, let go of the guilt,
learn to communicate and build the bond you've always dreamed
of through a partnership based approach that combines training,
(00:20):
nutrition and enrichment insteadof chasing the quick fixes that
don't actually work. Today I'm joined by Susanna
Gartner, a trailblazer in the world of animal law.
She founded the first animal lawfirm in Canada and has dedicated
her career to giving animals a legal voice.
She's a mediator, activist and the author of A Voice for
Animals, the social movement that provides dignity and
(00:43):
compassion for animals. Susanna's work bridges empathy
and the courtroom, challenging how society and the legal
systems view animals, whether there are companions in
shelters, on farms, or in the wild.
Susanna, your personal journey started while you were
volunteering at shelters as a child.
What do those early experiences teach you about animals and
(01:05):
about people? I'd love to dive into this topic
with that question because it all did start with that journey
of me as a child connecting to those animals and realizing that
they had unique personalities. They were live beings that
deserve protection and I felt happy and sad meeting them and
learning about their story and that inspired me to want to do
(01:28):
something to help them at a young age.
It's really great when people get involved at a young age,
especially in something they're passionate about, because that
helped shape them as an adult. They learn things a little bit
younger, they mature a little bit faster, but they also learn
the costs and benefits analysis of what is happening in society.
(01:50):
And I think that that's really beneficial because it's not
something that we teach in schools.
We don't teach kids how to effectively do much more than
balance their checkbook. We don't teach kids why they
shouldn't volunteer in certain areas of their community.
We don't we don't teach those things.
So it's really important that you figured that out at a very
(02:10):
young age and that you have justdriven it into this passion
throughout your life. Thank you so much.
That's so well said and such an important point and what I'm
trying to convey in my whole advocacy work is what you just
said in a nutshell, to bring that bridge closer and to help
people realize that they can help in any way they can.
(02:32):
Start small by doing, for example, what I did actually
started with me wanting to adoptA dog or a cat and wearing my
mom into the shelters and to go and view them, and then
realizing that, OK, at the time we couldn't adopt A dog.
So we decided that I would then be able to help with the
shelters and that in itself became a 'cause that I became
(02:54):
very passionate about. But bringing back your point of
it being taught in schools, thatis so important and something
that hopefully will happen one day because children absorb
information like sponges and themore that they can learn because
they're they are the next generation.
How important it is to save shelter animals rather than
(03:14):
purchasing pets online or through breeders.
And then they change, change theworld by learning.
So that's something that I'm actually really passionate about
in my next half of my life. So I'm really glad you brought
that up to try to bring it into schools, bring shelter pets into
the classroom so that they can learn and hopefully tell their
parents, I want a job from a shelter.
I I don't want a a breeder pet because then we're saving lives
(03:38):
and then we're teaching as well.Yeah, absolutely.
And what a way to combine things.
We had another guest on earlier this year who does that.
Her children are very she's a really big volunteer and she
brings the information about thedogs in her local shelter to her
children's classrooms. The children make artwork for
the dogs, kennels and the shelter and all kinds of really
(04:00):
neat things that the new adopting owners get to take home
with them. It's just a really neat way to
teach kids something beautiful. And then she always loves to be
able to tell them your dog got adopted this week or something.
But that's beautiful. I love that.
I really love those programs that can bring shelter pets to
children and to the community aswell.
(04:22):
So beyond the children, I see the community as a pillar of
strength and possibility for shelter animals because it is a
community wide program and problem that we face nowadays
with these euthanasia rates still sky.
High. Unfortunately.
It really is very sad that we have gotten to this point that
(04:43):
we're euthanizing so many animals every single year.
And it's not just a state to state problem.
It literally is an entire UnitedStates problem.
It's happening in every single state, in every single county.
And it's just so sad to me that we have people who just think
that they can breed a litter of puppies to make money and then
(05:03):
just dispose of them when they don't make them money.
Yeah. I would say the whole root
problem of animal disposability and the shelter, I call it a
crisis because with the ownership of animals and being
able to sell them, they become acommodity, objects in the eyes
of those people that choose to profit from selling pets to this
(05:28):
disconnect of animals as living,breathing beings.
And that is what I do like to talk about in my book as the
root cause of the problem of disposability.
And so to turn it into a positive is to to encourage
individuals to not support thosebreeders to not There you go.
(05:49):
We use someone that. Agreed.
Yes, that's right. Not support unethical breeders
and to rescue, please rescue, rescue.
And you're doing your part. People often will ask me, I feel
overwhelmed by animal rights andwhat you do.
Some people, some people, not everybody.
Of course I want to help, but I can't.
I just, I can't go to the shelter.
It feels so sad and disheartening.
(06:11):
And I try to spin it into a positive by saying, well, you
know what, Your one act of kindness can change the world
for one animal. And that is doing something.
And hopefully we can inspire people to want to get involved
because so many of us love animals and most of us don't
want to profit from, you know, these unethical breeders, but
(06:32):
they just don't know what to do.So I am here to hopefully
inspire people to feel confidentand do something and.
I love that because I think thatwe need more people who are
being a voice and who are educating, which kind of brings
me very easily to the next question, which is what
ultimately inspired you to pursue law as the way to
(06:52):
advocate for animals? Well, that was also quite a
journey in itself because again,as a child wanted to dedicate my
life to helping animals and ended up becoming a lawyer in in
the back of my mind I would loveto do something to help animals.
I had a lot of lasers along the way and ended up in corporate
(07:13):
law to start and just didn't feel passionate about it.
So then I left corporate law early on in my career to do a
Masters of Law with the idea that I might one day teach
animal law, which didn't. It didn't happen that way, but I
finished the Master of Laws and was able to write my thesis on
on reducing euthanasia rates in shelters using a collaborative
(07:36):
consensus approach and mediationbecause my Master of Law was as
a mediator. And I became a mediator as well
as a lawyer. And I was lucky enough to have a
professor who loved animals likeus.
At the time, she was actually feeding a feral cat and we were
talking about that feral cat. And I brought in can't really
bring in the feral cat into the shelter.
(07:57):
But I was wondering if I could write my thesis on on a topic
that would help shelter dogs andcats and increase those live
release rates. And so that became a thesis.
I ended up volunteering with my local government officials,
municipal counselors, to change some laws to reduce rates of
euthanasia, combining my thesis.And then I just decided that
(08:19):
there was no law firm in Canada dedicated to advancing the
interests of animals. I'm not sure in the States there
may have been, so I don't want to say definitively, but I knew
in Canada there wasn't a specific law firm that would be
dedicated completely in helping advance the animal rights.
So I started the law firm not knowing if I would get a case,
(08:39):
and I did. I got it from about a week
later. I put on my website and it was a
couple that were separating and they both wanted a dog full time
and they didn't want to go through the courts.
And so I helped them resolve their conflict.
And what they did was they sharethe dog.
We created an approach like an agreement that couldn't have
been created in the legal systembecause it would have been a
(09:00):
judgment at the time. And I focused on the dog's best
interests and it fueled me to continue.
And then I expanded my practice to other areas I.
Love that you founded the 1st animal law firm in Canada.
What challenges did you face when you started in a field
where it was brand new like thisdidn't exist?
(09:21):
Oh well. There were a lot of jokes.
I talked to parties. I remember that, which was
really, really funny looking back.
But at the time, I don't think Ifound it very funny because I
felt like a lone wolf. I was starting something.
And in the legal profession itself.
It would definitely be an interesting dinner conversation,
right? Oh, what do you do, Susanna?
I'm an animal rights lawyer. People would look at me and say
(09:44):
what, what are you doing? Especially amongst other
lawyers. It took a lot of persistence and
patience because it didn't, it didn't become busy overnight.
I had to hustle. I had to write a lot of blogs
to, to get my website populated and relevant.
So I would research and I had noone really to ask.
There was a lawyer in New York, Deborah Hamilton.
(10:04):
I'd like to give her some credit.
She's an amazing lawyer. She, she deals with pet custody.
And it did, I did speak to her several times because she, she
had a niche practice and that was helpful.
So for anyone that's looking to maybe one day become an animal
rights lawyer or a politician oreven an advocate, it's good to
look at other people that have done something and ask questions
(10:25):
and don't be intimidated. Follow your passion and your
heart. And it ended up being a busy law
firm, so. Incredible.
Honestly, until I think last year, didn't realize that there
were all of these, I don't even want to use the word these
issues in animal rights as far as who can take the dog, what
(10:47):
happens to the dog when you die,just all kinds of various
things. I think I was following somebody
on Facebook whose significant other passed and ended up in
some crazy legal battle with hissisters over the dogs and
unfortunately didn't have the money to keep up with it and
ultimately lost the dog after her partner passed.
(11:07):
And I just could not believe, because it was even stated by
these sisters that they didn't really want the dog.
They didn't care for the dog, They just didn't want her to
have the dog. And the court case still ruled
in their favor, which is just unbelievable to me that people
are like, it's a dog, it's property.
Yeah, I know more than that. It's.
(11:29):
So much more. I'm so sorry to hear this story
and it's more common than peoplewould think.
And as long as the laws still doconsider our dogs as property
right, personal possessions, no different than this chair that
I'm sitting on. The courts continue to award
ownership rights to people that may not be suited, may not even
(11:52):
love the dog, may have somethingagainst the other person,
especially during people separating.
Thankfully, though, this is changing.
So for example, in California, judges are considering the best
interests of the animals and in divorce cases in other states
like Alaska, So slowly the courts are recognizing that our
beloved pets do deserve a separate status.
(12:14):
So there is hope on the horizon that this is slowly changing,
but not everywhere. So it's good for people to know
that as long as we continue to treat our animals in the courts,
not individually or even even inmainstream.
I mean, if you took polls and asked people how do you feel
about your dog, is your dog a family member, I'm pretty sure
most people would would say absolutely without a question of
(12:37):
a doubt. However, there is that
disconnect with the the court system.
So it's slowly catching up. And the more these cases are
going to court and the more thatthe status quo is being
challenged, we are seeing progress slowly, but we are.
At least we're seeing forward movement.
That's all that matters is to beable to see that we're making
change, that the movement is changing and that we are
(13:00):
thinking about the well-being ofthe animal.
And this is another area where if we're thinking about the
well-being of the animal, a couple splits.
One of them gets the dog, the other one doesn't.
And if we don't put the dog in the right place, now this club
hole that is split, maybe the one partner who gets the dog
decides they don't want the dog and just to spite the other
(13:21):
partner, now the dog is in the shelter.
It's just things like that that are so horrible when this dog
could have been somewhere that they would have been loved and
taken care of for the rest of their life, and now they're just
a number in the system because we as humans can't get our shit
together. Yeah, yes, exactly, exactly.
We as as humans are the ones that need to be the voices.
(13:42):
That's why I titled my book of voice for animals.
Each one of us an advocate in our own right, even if we don't
do what I'm doing, like dedicateour career to what you're doing,
which is amazing, is giving a voice to dogs and this issue to
the public, right? Bringing this to the public in
terms of education and inspiration by expressing our
(14:03):
disagreement with the way that animals are treated in the court
system, by writing our politicians, by bringing these
cases forward. We are standing up for them and
change is happening. As as I mentioned, there was
even a few decisions in New Yorkrecently that were favorable to
the dog in terms of the best interest and I was really
pleased to see that. So it is happening which.
(14:23):
Is wonderful, and in your book you talk about creating a social
movement that's rooted in dignity and compassion.
What sparked your decision to write this book in the 1st
place? Well, the book was.
Written as a way for me to cope with the loss of my dog Charlie.
So I wasn't planning to write a book at the time.
You know how things happen, lifehappens.
(14:45):
And I was really bonded with this dog.
He was a pet store dog. It was before we had kids and we
saw this dog with a for sale sign in the pet shop.
He was a small plumber, looked alittle bit like your dog that we
saw in the beginning, and very sleepy.
Oh, very young. You look like that.
Isn't that so cute, that CC, I don't know if you can see it
(15:06):
here, but here he is. There he is, right there.
Yeah. So he was in the pet shop and I
found out he'd been there, transported around from pet shop
to pet shop for almost a year. So he wasn't a puppy and he had
the for sale sign. So a number of times slash
someone had bought him, returnedhim, and I just fell in love
with him. I picked him up and he licked my
(15:28):
earlobe. From then on, it was a love
story. He became my best friend.
We traveled around, we moved to California, to Newfoundland and
he was always there with us. So when he passed, like for all
of us, it was extremely difficult.
So I started writing just about animals and Charlie as a way to
cope with the loss and to speak up for other dogs and shelters.
(15:50):
I thought that would be a way tohonor his his memory.
And with that journey, I startedto realize that there is so much
that I can share with what I've learned along the way.
And then I went back to the shelter to to volunteer
something that I love to do in the municipal pounds, which as
you know, they do have euthanasia.
They're not no kill. We can talk about that so people
(16:12):
can know if you'd like as well so that they understand.
So they have kill rates. And this dog looks so, so much
like Charlie. He was a Pomino, so the same
color, similar size. Someone had abandoned him at the
shelter and he barked a lot and I was worried he was going to
get euthanized. He would recognize me when I'd
come. And luckily my mom ended up
(16:32):
adopting him. So that was cool.
Very cool that she did that. And he lived a long, happy life.
And he was pampered till the end.
But it also awakened me to the reality that what about these
other animals that I'm leaving now that are adoptable, that
they're healthy, that are treatable, that need behavior.
So many need behavior assessments, need some dog
(16:54):
training and they be great dogs and they're not given a chance.
And so then I then I started writing the book about companion
animals and shelter, the sheltersystem and combining my thesis.
But what happened in that time was I started to become aware of
other animals as well and their plight.
So it just turned into a whole book about inspiring people to
just learn more and hopefully get involved in some way.
(17:16):
And you? Really.
I really do have such a wonderful message in your book.
I learned a lot. Thank you.
I was really not familiar with all of the legal stuff.
I'm familiar enough with how shelters work and kill rates and
how dogs end up getting euthanized and all that kind of
stuff. But you really give a full
(17:37):
picture of what it's like and how to be able to identify it in
your own rescue. Because every rescue is
different, just like every dog is different.
Every rescue is different. They have a different set of
rules. They have a different sort of
framework for how it's going to run, how long the dogs have,
what do we do to get them adopted, what kind of programs
(17:59):
they offer. Everything is so completely
different no matter where you gorescue to rescue.
And so it's really important to be able to kind of weed through
the presentation of the rescue and kind of look behind the
curtain to identify what the real needs and real problems
are. And I think that you do a
beautiful job of helping people understand what they need to be
looking for in those situations.Thank.
(18:21):
You. Thank you so much.
That was what I hoped the book would do.
You bring up a lot of information in your book, but
one thing that I think is reallyimportant for just everyone to
know is your acceptable companion animal philosophy
framework. Can you explain what it is and
how it might change how society treats pets to everyone?
(18:42):
Thank you for bringing that up. I I really appreciate that
because that is also the heart of the message of my book.
As I was writing, I realized that we as a society, we care
about our individual pets. And in general, we love dogs and
cats, domesticated animals, and we feel sad for the homeless cat
(19:02):
pets, but we seem to be able to separate ourselves from them.
And so I came up with acceptablecompanion animal philosophy.
The acronym is a cap. So to put a cap on the killing,
first step in honoring in advancing the rights of these
animals is to stop with the euthanasia of healthy,
(19:24):
treatable, adoptable animals. And to come up with other
strategies to increase adoptions, to work with
communities to spay neuter, to not support the unethical
breeders and the pet stores. And just in general, a
philosophy of consensus in whichwe agree that we are not going
to kill animals anymore in the shelter system.
(19:47):
And that's what I came up with as a way to bring us together.
So through my mediation experience, terms of not pulling
people away with cold and perhaps even very distant laws
that can come later. But it's this consensus, this
philosophy, that acceptable companion animal philosophy
means that we accept as a society, as Americans, as
(20:11):
Canadians, for example, then we're going to stop this.
And the way to do that, of course, is through the
governments as a start. Though it is the communities
themselves, right? Because the communities, the
shelters rely on the communities, they take in
people's unwanted pets, for the most part, lost pets.
And then they have these, like you said, the rescues, the
shelters have different ways of dealing with them.
(20:32):
They have timelines, expiry dates.
I was worried about my mom's dog, Gucci, for example.
He'd been there a while. I knew what was coming, so I was
desperate to get him out. But that's how it starts.
And that's the, the heart of my,my proposal that I have not yet
brought to government officials because I was so busy working as
a lawyer and writing books, etcetera.
(20:54):
But that is something that I, I will hopefully do one day.
I never say for sure think it's important.
And that's why I I thought of that as a solution to the
shelter debacle. The biggest problem is that
shelters are still overflowing. Animals are still, as we said,
treated as disposable. Cats, dogs, horses, pigs,
(21:15):
anything that someone sees as a pet, they're crowding up the
shelters because people get tired of them.
They don't want to take care of them.
They're too expensive now, it's sick and they don't want to deal
with that. All of the things and people
find the most ridiculous reasonsto surrender a pet.
But from a legal standpoint, what systematic changes do you
(21:35):
feel are most urgent to help with the overpopulation crisis?
Well, so. That's a really good point of
pets being in shelters is overcrowded or like I like to
call them companion animals and pets are that's your cute name
for them and it's of course relevant.
It is like you said, companion animals, that can include
rabbits even, right? So some shelters do accept
(21:58):
rabbits, some don't. Cats, dogs, rescues that take in
horses, farm animals, etcetera. Systematically.
From a legal perspective, the nokill model is still highly
relevant and important. No kill has been a term that's
been utilized and implemented byshelters and has been
successful. No kill meaning that healthy
(22:20):
adoptable shelter animals will be saved from euthanasia.
However, not every shelter has embraced it or has been able to
follow it. For example, an open policy
shelter that accepts all animals.
Think about that overcrowding that can occur, especially after
the pandemic. So I became the director of a
Humane Society here in Toronto of programs and operations a
(22:43):
couple of years ago. So it was after the pandemic,
when these pandemic pets were being being purchased in droves.
And what happened was when I became the director there, they
were just being surrendered a daily.
People were going back to work, they wanted to travel more.
They realized they were allergic.
They didn't do enough research. So from a systemic legal point
of view, there have to be laws in place that are enforced.
(23:05):
And that's where I come back to my acceptable companion animal
philosophy, which is that killing shelter pets must end.
That is a socially responsible move that we owe these animals,
we bring them into this world and we're systemically allowing
them to be killed. It's just mind bogggling, isn't
(23:26):
it? When there are solutions, talk
about solutions in my book. And so that's something that I'm
very passionate about. I do believe that it is, it is
getting better. Again, ebbs and flows.
We have to remember that ebbs and flows and there are shelters
that are trying their best, not as many do implement the Nokia,
but that does exist. So from a federal level, from a,
(23:48):
from a legislative animal protection policy implementation
date, why that can be something that we can all work toward with
our government officials sort ofindividually so that again, it
doesn't become overwhelming like, oh, what can I do?
But what you can do is get involved, volunteer, find out
from others which shelters are No kill and try to implement
(24:12):
their policies to these other shelters.
It's not that difficult actually.
And I do believe that we're on the way to implementing No Kill.
I do believe that which? Would be really wonderful and
again, this is another area we've talked about this in
podcast episodes before where every state has different laws.
So make sure that you guys are looking at what your state
(24:35):
regulations are. Make sure you're looking at what
your rules and laws for your local shelters are.
Find the shelters that are stillallowing for the kill option
versus the no kill shelters and help at those shelters that are
suffering. Because that is the most
underrated thing about this community is that everyone who
(24:57):
loves dogs, who wants to help dogs, they know that they have
to kind of dig into the hard areas.
And going into those no kill shelters is easy because all of
those dogs are safe. Going into the kill shelters is
hard because you don't know day-to-day, week to week, month
to month, what the environment is going to look like, what dogs
are going to be in there, how many you might get to help for a
(25:19):
few days and then never see again.
It can be really, really awful emotionally, but those are the
areas that really need your voice the most.
Absolutely. That's so well said and it's
extremely important. Also making the connection and
why I encourage people individually, again, they don't
have to become an expert in the field and so many people want to
(25:42):
help and connecting individuallyto an animal, it's just, it's
just amazing. It's a wonderful experience.
And then saving that animal, it just becomes almost contagious
because you realize that you canmake a difference.
And with enough of our voices together trying to encourage
these changes, it will happen eventually.
(26:03):
It has to because this cannot continue.
I mean, when I, I hear about these gas chambers in certain
states being banned, I'm like thinking this is still
happening. It is.
But when you hear that one's closed down, that's progress.
So we have to celebrate the small steps toward eradicating
this whole system of killing shelter pets on an individual
(26:25):
and or community level. We had a community here in
Canada and Toronto that was focused on no kill in the
municipal shelters. And also some people might be
interested in making it their jobs vying for these positions
because we want compassionate leaders in the shelter systems,
even in the kill shelters, because they then will implement
policies. Laws are one thing, but there
(26:46):
are internal policies which are much easier to pass than the
laws themselves. And advocate for live release
rates. There are so many small things
that can turn into big things, and I really believe that if we
could just again come together as a community that it would be
much easier to change a lot of this if our voices were louder
(27:08):
than they are right now. Yes.
Yes, I know there's a lot going on in the world and I know most
of us care. They want to do something.
There are so many compassionate choices that we can make.
You can adopt if you can adopt. Even fostering is amazing.
So many people don't realize that you take that animal out of
the shelter system, a lonely, dark, cold place, and you give
(27:30):
them a love. And you in Richmond, you can't
afford to have an animal fostering.
Some shelters will even pay for the food in the veterinary care
and provide training so that you're giving that animal a
chance of finding a loving home.So there are so many things that
can be done. Like if you don't want to go to
the legislation, that's, you know, that's understandable.
That can be a little intimidating, right?
(27:51):
But that's OK because it's all of us coming together and doing
something that will be the voicefor these animals and so that
the killing can stop. All the jobs need to be filled.
All of the jobs need to be filled, yes.
That's right. Absolutely.
Absolutely beyond. Your book also covers wildlife,
farm animals, and lab animals. How do you envision building a
(28:13):
unified framework that protects all animals without diluting
focus? Obviously, I would love to
advocate for every species of animals because I believe that
it is a holistic 'cause I believe that every animal,
including a wild animal, farm animal, companion animal, is a
(28:34):
sentient being. They're alive, they have
emotions, they have feelings, and so advocating for all of
them is something that I deeply do believe in.
But I do think it starts with the companion animals because of
the close connection. My own journey in expanding the
book to have chapters on wildlife and farm animals wasn't
(28:54):
what I intended initially because I too had connections
with companion animals only until I started visiting farm
sanctuaries. And I remember meeting a pig
named Penelope who wagged her tail, a little black pig, and
she ran up to greet me and then lay on her back for for a belly
rub. And in meeting those farm
animals, I make the connection that they all deserve protection
(29:18):
so it is a unified cause. And stronger animal protection
laws are necessary for all animals.
The strategies may differ, but the value of their lives does
not. Yeah, I I completely agree.
It's something that I struggle with a lot, honestly, where
people don't recognize that animals are sentient beings,
(29:39):
that they have thoughts, that they have emotions, and that
they have expressed feelings about the things that are
happening around them. It just doesn't make sense to me
how people don't recognize that because we measure intelligence
in such a different way. As humans, we don't give animals
the credit they deserve because they don't speak.
And so we we can't measure that intelligence the same way
(30:03):
because we feel that because they cannot express themselves
verbally, they're not on the same level as us.
But in most cases, I think dogs are like way beyond us.
Yeah, that's why. Well, they have. 1/6 sense,
right? I mean, I I talk about, for
example, in the book, a shelter dog named Peanut who was
severely abused and she was a small dog.
(30:26):
She ended up luckily getting adopted and she saved little
girl with her 6th sense. So her new guardians or new pet
parents saw her barking one day outside and human guardian went
to see what was why is she barking like this?
And she found a little girl in aditch, 3 year old little girl
who was being abused. And that sixth sense is
(30:49):
something we can learn from thisanimal that had been abused,
that didn't let that destroy herability to love and to live life
and to use her senses to help another human being.
And that's why I say animals areactually incredible.
And we can learn so much from them, whether it be a dog, cat,
farm animal. My friend and I just found a
(31:11):
little baby squirrel and we ended up rescuing it.
And it's, it was just so precious and needed to be bottle
fed. We didn't know where to take.
So we looked up wildlife sanctuary.
They took the the squirrel in and I realized this is just a
baby. So really, I mean, they have
different lives. They may not be as intimately
connected to us as the dogs and calves, but all animals are
(31:33):
sentient beings. I I'm sure that most of us would
would agree with that based on the scientific research now
that's coming out and the evidence of that.
So as we learn more, hopefully we can connect more to them as
individuals, the personalities, too.
Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think so.
I think that will happen incrementally, right, With time.
(31:54):
But first, we need to stop the killing in the shelter so that
that becomes something archaic, part of our history as opposed
to being done in the present day.
Yeah. So that's something that's quite
urgent. And I would, I would please
encourage other people to becomeinvolved to help change that
with their local shelters. And then it can become a
(32:15):
hopefully a federal law that it is simply outlawed.
I. Really hope so.
I feel the same way. I feel that we're trending in
that direction because there's so many people who are so much
more vocal and passionate about animals now than there used to
be. Yeah.
Feel like there's been a cultural shift in how we look at
pets and how we treat farm life and just other animals in
(32:37):
general. I really do think that we're
headed in the right direction. Absolutely we are.
I mean, I can say happily when Istarted the practice over a
decade ago and practice for almost a decade, how much has
changed since then? The landscape and animal cruelty
laws that are passing almost weekly.
I like to post on my LinkedIn happy news stories all over the
(32:59):
world, in particular in the States with the animal cruelty.
That too is something that is hugely important and it's
connected to that whole idea of protecting companion animals
from abuse, right? And then all over the world.
I read today before the podcast actually, that India country
that has so stray animal, millions of stray animals, the
(33:20):
Supreme Court passed a law that stray animals have a
constitutional life to food and protection.
So they're not going to be killing a million stray dogs.
That's an important message globally, that people are
standing up for compassion and realizing that these animals are
innocent and we are the decisionmakers and we have the ability
(33:41):
to speak up for them both individually and collectively
through our communities, throughthese consensus models, working
with our shelter systems to making individual choices,
adopting, fostering. If you can't do either, those
share, share, share, share. Social media can be a powerful
motivator and these animals justneed people to speak up for
(34:03):
them. And I'm seeing so much of that,
which is amazing from when I started.
A lot of hope. Good, good.
I like to leave on a hopeful message.
There is that. Yeah.
We need to, we need to leave it hopeful for people.
We don't want people to feel overwhelmed or sad.
I don't want to do that. I'm hoping to inspire and
motivate and and leave people with something like a take away
(34:26):
message, which is small changes can lead to big changes.
One individual act of kindness can change the world for one
animal, which then spirals out. Yeah.
Absolutely. That ripple effect is powerful
and so many different aspects ofour lives it.
Is it is and it's really it's really up to us to do something
it. Really is and you are doing that
(34:48):
you you started off in a courtroom and now you've moved
to writing and media and advocacy What made that shift
come about for you and why is itimportant when.
I left the practice. I wanted to continue my advocacy
work, which I felt could have more of an impact.
The courts were very important and the practice was also very,
(35:11):
very fulfilling for a time. From a more holistic
perspective, the advocacy point is where I'm more passionate to
be able to make changes both incrementally and more
holistically. For example, now I'm doing a
series of a YouTube series called A Voice for Animals where
I'm visiting animal rescues and sanctuaries and I've just
(35:32):
wrapped up the summer series of that and sharing the stories of
the animals. So the individual animals.
And I'm just writing a new book what animals can teach us.
And hopefully those those acts will lead to some people
learning more about animals themselves and what they can do
individually. That's.
Incredible. That's incredible.
And for anybody who's listening right now that wants to help,
(35:56):
but they're probably feeling a little overwhelmed right now and
they don't know where to start, what's 1.
Action step that you would recommend they can take today
that would lead them in the right direction 1.
Action step, I would say, is to do your research.
If you're interested in helping an animal or a shelter or an
organization, it's so easy to goonline and to do some research
(36:19):
in terms of what resonates with you, what fuels you, what feels
passionate, because that's something that will likely draw
you to the right path. Whether again back to adopting,
fostering, volunteering, donating or simply sharing on
social media, or dedicating youryour vocation to legislation
(36:41):
being passed by becoming a politician, all of us
individually can make a difference.
So I would say to just start small.
Start small and just do some research.
If you don't know what you're getting yourself into, then it's
gonna be even more confusing andstressful.
So definitely take a look at what's going on around you and
and figure out where you feel comfortable starting where you
(37:01):
feel. Comfortable.
That's right, Because that's that's gonna motivate you.
I would say more than anything else, more than anything I can
say because my journey is is personal and unique and everyone
else's will be too, no less, no more.
Just because someone becomes an expert in the field doesn't mean
that they're doing more than someone who goes into a shelter
(37:23):
and saves an animal's life from euthanasia today, from a till
shelter. That's just as impactful,
important and then shares when people like I walk my rescue dog
Oakley, who we met before the podcast, and I love to say he's
a rescue and I know your dogs are, which is again, educating,
sharing. You can have lovely dogs.
They don't have to come from breeders or pet stores.
(37:46):
Absolutely. And with all that being said,
everything that you've put together with your career, what
do you hope that your legacy andanimal law and advocacy will be
My. Own personal legacy, I hope, is
that compassion and policy can be combined.
So with my background as a animal rights lawyer, that
understanding animals individually as unique sentient
(38:09):
beings is just as important as it is to change laws.
And combining the two would be the ultimate hope for my work to
bridge that gap in terms of not being seen as property and to
have supportive family members. And my husband, my kids have
gone into rescues and sanctuaries with me, and
(38:30):
hopefully other people's family members can too.
It's so inspirational when somebody takes their passion,
takes their their love for animals or whatever their
passion is, but because we're talking about animals, take
their love for animals and then just causes this huge ripple
effect throughout the community.Like you said, one voice, right?
You're just one voice, but you've impacted everyone who's
(38:53):
read your book. You've impacted your own family
members. You even got your mom to adopt A
dog that you fell in love with. So look at all of the change
that just one voice can make. I think that's a really huge
message for everyone who's need to hear.
Well, I mean, what you're doing is, is wonderful and and I just
I'm inspired by your work and what you're doing because again,
(39:14):
you're elevating, you're bringing this this to the
viewers attention and that's hugely important.
I hope also to empower the youthto empower others to want to
become advocates. I hope that that's another
reason I wrote this book to hopefully inspire someone else
to want to continue to become anadvocate and to do something in
(39:35):
the movement because there's so much to be done and so many ways
to contribute. We.
Don't talk about the things thatwe as a society have been told
we shouldn't talk about. Those are the areas that we're
struggling in. And that is why I do what I do.
That's why you do what you do. Because if we don't educate, if
we don't spread the word, if we don't teach people that there's
(39:56):
so much behind it and there's such a bigger picture that has
to be tackled, we can't make change.
We have to do the things that nobody else is willing to do in
order for there to be progressive change.
And it's easy. It's not easy in times of.
Course it is, of course, Especially when you're going
against the grain. Of course it is.
But let me tell you, it is so fulfilling.
(40:19):
Nothing fills my heart and soul more than when I feel that I've
done something for an animal in need.
And I'm sure that most people that care about animals would
feel the same way no less. It's extremely fulfilling and it
can be one small act. Again, I'd say kindness.
They can can have ripple effectsinto the into the other areas
(40:40):
it's. Crazy how much one small thing
can make such a big change. So what's next for you?
Do you have new projects, new writing?
Or are you just going to try to continue to grow this movement
for A Voice for Animals? I am writing the new book, What
Animals Teach Us, from Mike's experience of this YouTube
series that I just wrapped up this summer, visiting
(41:00):
sanctuaries, mainly farm animals, and highlighting their
stories and continuing with that.
And I have an organization called Center for Animal
Advocacy that I've had for a while that I'm going to continue
and get more people involved in.So that's super exciting so
people can learn more about at the animal laws in simple ways
(41:21):
and what they can do without feeling overwhelmed.
So I'll have that up on my website, Susanna Gartner dot
com. I'll have a link there if
anyones interested in finding out how do I get involved in my
own community? What do I do?
Just a simple thing. Then I'll have that information
out, hopefully start that this this fall and just continuing my
advocacy work and spreading somemotivation and inspiration.
(41:45):
I look forward to following yourjourney and maybe connecting
with you after you release your certain book.
Yeah, I'd love that. I just think it gives us such an
opportunity, especially what ouranimals teach us.
I mean, that's something that everybody who loves animals can
tune into and learn something from.
I think what you're doing is really important work, and I
appreciate you being here today sharing your heart, your
(42:07):
expertise, and your passion for giving animals a voice.
It's such a powerful message that I think everyone needs to
hear. So I have one final question,
Sure. And that is, what would you like
to leave the listeners with? I'd like to leave the myth
listeners with hope. Hope that we are making positive
changes for animals. That every day I hear a positive
(42:28):
news story, share an animal law change for the positive, that I
will likely write a post about and and deployed to LinkedIn.
And that inspires me. And I'd like to say that there
is definitely so much that can be done and is being done to
make better lives for animals inneed.
(42:49):
And that our voices do matter. One voice makes a difference.
And that's the difference between this book that I wrote,
which is more advocacy based, asyou've said, like learning about
what can be done, you know, on alegislative level individual.
Whereas What Animals Teach Us isreally an inspirational read for
a mainstream person that just wants to understand how animals
(43:12):
show us love and how they make us better humans.
Excellent. Tell everyone how they can get
in touch with you, where they can find your book and all of
the things. OK.
Sure. So I have the website at
susannahgartner.com so feel freeto message me and contact me
spot or you can subscribe to thenewsletter blogs if you want to
learn about topics that resonatefor animals.
(43:35):
Otherwise I have LinkedIn, Susanna, Gartner, Instagram.
I am definitely reachable and accessible so if anyone has any
questions feel free to reach out.
Amazing. Well you guys, thank you so much
for being here this week. Remember to be kind, spread joy
and lead with hope in your dogs lives and we will see you next
week on Straight Up Dog Talk. Thank you for listening to
(43:57):
Straight Up Dog Talk and for showing up for your dog today.
If you've been trying to figure things out on your own and
nothing seems to work, it's exhausting to keep guessing and
wondering if you're failing yourdog.
That's why I offer a free 15 minute call so you can walk away
with clear next steps for training, nutrition, or
enrichment that actually fit youand your dog.
(44:19):
The link is in the show notes. New episodes drop every Monday
and Wednesday. I'll see you next time.
We think of pets as family, but in the eyes of the law, they're
still property. What does this mean for their
future? Welcome to Straight Up Dog Talk,
the podcast helping burned out pet parents who feel stuck with
their pup. Finally, let go of the guilt,
learn to communicate and build the bond you've always dreamed
of through a partnership based approach that combines training,
(00:20):
nutrition and enrichment insteadof chasing the quick fixes that
don't actually work. Today I'm joined by Susanna
Gartner, a trailblazer in the world of animal law.
She founded the first animal lawfirm in Canada and has dedicated
her career to giving animals a legal voice.
She's a mediator, activist and the author of A Voice for
Animals, the social movement that provides dignity and
(00:43):
compassion for animals. Susanna's work bridges empathy
and the courtroom, challenging how society and the legal
systems view animals, whether there are companions in
shelters, on farms, or in the wild.
Susanna, your personal journey started while you were
volunteering at shelters as a child.
What do those early experiences teach you about animals and
(01:05):
about people? I'd love to dive into this topic
with that question because it all did start with that journey
of me as a child connecting to those animals and realizing that
they had unique personalities. They were live beings that
deserve protection and I felt happy and sad meeting them and
learning about their story and that inspired me to want to do
(01:28):
something to help them at a young age.
It's really great when people get involved at a young age,
especially in something they're passionate about, because that
helped shape them as an adult. They learn things a little bit
younger, they mature a little bit faster, but they also learn
the costs and benefits analysis of what is happening in society.
(01:50):
And I think that that's really beneficial because it's not
something that we teach in schools.
We don't teach kids how to effectively do much more than
balance their checkbook. We don't teach kids why they
shouldn't volunteer in certain areas of their community.
We don't we don't teach those things.
So it's really important that you figured that out at a very
(02:10):
young age and that you have justdriven it into this passion
throughout your life. Thank you so much.
That's so well said and such an important point and what I'm
trying to convey in my whole advocacy work is what you just
said in a nutshell, to bring that bridge closer and to help
people realize that they can help in any way they can.
(02:32):
Start small by doing, for example, what I did actually
started with me wanting to adoptA dog or a cat and wearing my
mom into the shelters and to go and view them, and then
realizing that, OK, at the time we couldn't adopt A dog.
So we decided that I would then be able to help with the
shelters and that in itself became a 'cause that I became
(02:54):
very passionate about. But bringing back your point of
it being taught in schools, thatis so important and something
that hopefully will happen one day because children absorb
information like sponges and themore that they can learn because
they're they are the next generation.
How important it is to save shelter animals rather than
(03:14):
purchasing pets online or through breeders.
And then they change, change theworld by learning.
So that's something that I'm actually really passionate about
in my next half of my life. So I'm really glad you brought
that up to try to bring it into schools, bring shelter pets into
the classroom so that they can learn and hopefully tell their
parents, I want a job from a shelter.
I I don't want a a breeder pet because then we're saving lives
(03:38):
and then we're teaching as well.Yeah, absolutely.
And what a way to combine things.
We had another guest on earlier this year who does that.
Her children are very she's a really big volunteer and she
brings the information about thedogs in her local shelter to her
children's classrooms. The children make artwork for
the dogs, kennels and the shelter and all kinds of really
(04:00):
neat things that the new adopting owners get to take home
with them. It's just a really neat way to
teach kids something beautiful. And then she always loves to be
able to tell them your dog got adopted this week or something.
But that's beautiful. I love that.
I really love those programs that can bring shelter pets to
children and to the community aswell.
(04:22):
So beyond the children, I see the community as a pillar of
strength and possibility for shelter animals because it is a
community wide program and problem that we face nowadays
with these euthanasia rates still sky.
High. Unfortunately.
It really is very sad that we have gotten to this point that
(04:43):
we're euthanizing so many animals every single year.
And it's not just a state to state problem.
It literally is an entire UnitedStates problem.
It's happening in every single state, in every single county.
And it's just so sad to me that we have people who just think
that they can breed a litter of puppies to make money and then
(05:03):
just dispose of them when they don't make them money.
Yeah. I would say the whole root
problem of animal disposability and the shelter, I call it a
crisis because with the ownership of animals and being
able to sell them, they become acommodity, objects in the eyes
of those people that choose to profit from selling pets to this
(05:28):
disconnect of animals as living,breathing beings.
And that is what I do like to talk about in my book as the
root cause of the problem of disposability.
And so to turn it into a positive is to to encourage
individuals to not support thosebreeders to not There you go.
(05:49):
We use someone that. Agreed.
Yes, that's right. Not support unethical breeders
and to rescue, please rescue, rescue.
And you're doing your part. People often will ask me, I feel
overwhelmed by animal rights andwhat you do.
Some people, some people, not everybody.
Of course I want to help, but I can't.
I just, I can't go to the shelter.
It feels so sad and disheartening.
(06:11):
And I try to spin it into a positive by saying, well, you
know what, Your one act of kindness can change the world
for one animal. And that is doing something.
And hopefully we can inspire people to want to get involved
because so many of us love animals and most of us don't
want to profit from, you know, these unethical breeders, but
(06:32):
they just don't know what to do.So I am here to hopefully
inspire people to feel confidentand do something and.
I love that because I think thatwe need more people who are
being a voice and who are educating, which kind of brings
me very easily to the next question, which is what
ultimately inspired you to pursue law as the way to
(06:52):
advocate for animals? Well, that was also quite a
journey in itself because again,as a child wanted to dedicate my
life to helping animals and ended up becoming a lawyer in in
the back of my mind I would loveto do something to help animals.
I had a lot of lasers along the way and ended up in corporate
(07:13):
law to start and just didn't feel passionate about it.
So then I left corporate law early on in my career to do a
Masters of Law with the idea that I might one day teach
animal law, which didn't. It didn't happen that way, but I
finished the Master of Laws and was able to write my thesis on
on reducing euthanasia rates in shelters using a collaborative
(07:36):
consensus approach and mediationbecause my Master of Law was as
a mediator. And I became a mediator as well
as a lawyer. And I was lucky enough to have a
professor who loved animals likeus.
At the time, she was actually feeding a feral cat and we were
talking about that feral cat. And I brought in can't really
bring in the feral cat into the shelter.
(07:57):
But I was wondering if I could write my thesis on on a topic
that would help shelter dogs andcats and increase those live
release rates. And so that became a thesis.
I ended up volunteering with my local government officials,
municipal counselors, to change some laws to reduce rates of
euthanasia, combining my thesis.And then I just decided that
(08:19):
there was no law firm in Canada dedicated to advancing the
interests of animals. I'm not sure in the States there
may have been, so I don't want to say definitively, but I knew
in Canada there wasn't a specific law firm that would be
dedicated completely in helping advance the animal rights.
So I started the law firm not knowing if I would get a case,
(08:39):
and I did. I got it from about a week
later. I put on my website and it was a
couple that were separating and they both wanted a dog full time
and they didn't want to go through the courts.
And so I helped them resolve their conflict.
And what they did was they sharethe dog.
We created an approach like an agreement that couldn't have
been created in the legal systembecause it would have been a
(09:00):
judgment at the time. And I focused on the dog's best
interests and it fueled me to continue.
And then I expanded my practice to other areas I.
Love that you founded the 1st animal law firm in Canada.
What challenges did you face when you started in a field
where it was brand new like thisdidn't exist?
(09:21):
Oh well. There were a lot of jokes.
I talked to parties. I remember that, which was
really, really funny looking back.
But at the time, I don't think Ifound it very funny because I
felt like a lone wolf. I was starting something.
And in the legal profession itself.
It would definitely be an interesting dinner conversation,
right? Oh, what do you do, Susanna?
I'm an animal rights lawyer. People would look at me and say
(09:44):
what, what are you doing? Especially amongst other
lawyers. It took a lot of persistence and
patience because it didn't, it didn't become busy overnight.
I had to hustle. I had to write a lot of blogs
to, to get my website populated and relevant.
So I would research and I had noone really to ask.
There was a lawyer in New York, Deborah Hamilton.
(10:04):
I'd like to give her some credit.
She's an amazing lawyer. She, she deals with pet custody.
And it did, I did speak to her several times because she, she
had a niche practice and that was helpful.
So for anyone that's looking to maybe one day become an animal
rights lawyer or a politician oreven an advocate, it's good to
look at other people that have done something and ask questions
(10:25):
and don't be intimidated. Follow your passion and your
heart. And it ended up being a busy law
firm, so. Incredible.
Honestly, until I think last year, didn't realize that there
were all of these, I don't even want to use the word these
issues in animal rights as far as who can take the dog, what
(10:47):
happens to the dog when you die,just all kinds of various
things. I think I was following somebody
on Facebook whose significant other passed and ended up in
some crazy legal battle with hissisters over the dogs and
unfortunately didn't have the money to keep up with it and
ultimately lost the dog after her partner passed.
(11:07):
And I just could not believe, because it was even stated by
these sisters that they didn't really want the dog.
They didn't care for the dog, They just didn't want her to
have the dog. And the court case still ruled
in their favor, which is just unbelievable to me that people
are like, it's a dog, it's property.
Yeah, I know more than that. It's.
(11:29):
So much more. I'm so sorry to hear this story
and it's more common than peoplewould think.
And as long as the laws still doconsider our dogs as property
right, personal possessions, no different than this chair that
I'm sitting on. The courts continue to award
ownership rights to people that may not be suited, may not even
(11:52):
love the dog, may have somethingagainst the other person,
especially during people separating.
Thankfully, though, this is changing.
So for example, in California, judges are considering the best
interests of the animals and in divorce cases in other states
like Alaska, So slowly the courts are recognizing that our
beloved pets do deserve a separate status.
(12:14):
So there is hope on the horizon that this is slowly changing,
but not everywhere. So it's good for people to know
that as long as we continue to treat our animals in the courts,
not individually or even even inmainstream.
I mean, if you took polls and asked people how do you feel
about your dog, is your dog a family member, I'm pretty sure
most people would would say absolutely without a question of
(12:37):
a doubt. However, there is that
disconnect with the the court system.
So it's slowly catching up. And the more these cases are
going to court and the more thatthe status quo is being
challenged, we are seeing progress slowly, but we are.
At least we're seeing forward movement.
That's all that matters is to beable to see that we're making
change, that the movement is changing and that we are
(13:00):
thinking about the well-being ofthe animal.
And this is another area where if we're thinking about the
well-being of the animal, a couple splits.
One of them gets the dog, the other one doesn't.
And if we don't put the dog in the right place, now this club
hole that is split, maybe the one partner who gets the dog
decides they don't want the dog and just to spite the other
(13:21):
partner, now the dog is in the shelter.
It's just things like that that are so horrible when this dog
could have been somewhere that they would have been loved and
taken care of for the rest of their life, and now they're just
a number in the system because we as humans can't get our shit
together. Yeah, yes, exactly, exactly.
We as as humans are the ones that need to be the voices.
(13:42):
That's why I titled my book of voice for animals.
Each one of us an advocate in our own right, even if we don't
do what I'm doing, like dedicateour career to what you're doing,
which is amazing, is giving a voice to dogs and this issue to
the public, right? Bringing this to the public in
terms of education and inspiration by expressing our
(14:03):
disagreement with the way that animals are treated in the court
system, by writing our politicians, by bringing these
cases forward. We are standing up for them and
change is happening. As as I mentioned, there was
even a few decisions in New Yorkrecently that were favorable to
the dog in terms of the best interest and I was really
pleased to see that. So it is happening which.
(14:23):
Is wonderful, and in your book you talk about creating a social
movement that's rooted in dignity and compassion.
What sparked your decision to write this book in the 1st
place? Well, the book was.
Written as a way for me to cope with the loss of my dog Charlie.
So I wasn't planning to write a book at the time.
You know how things happen, lifehappens.
(14:45):
And I was really bonded with this dog.
He was a pet store dog. It was before we had kids and we
saw this dog with a for sale sign in the pet shop.
He was a small plumber, looked alittle bit like your dog that we
saw in the beginning, and very sleepy.
Oh, very young. You look like that.
Isn't that so cute, that CC, I don't know if you can see it
(15:06):
here, but here he is. There he is, right there.
Yeah. So he was in the pet shop and I
found out he'd been there, transported around from pet shop
to pet shop for almost a year. So he wasn't a puppy and he had
the for sale sign. So a number of times slash
someone had bought him, returnedhim, and I just fell in love
with him. I picked him up and he licked my
(15:28):
earlobe. From then on, it was a love
story. He became my best friend.
We traveled around, we moved to California, to Newfoundland and
he was always there with us. So when he passed, like for all
of us, it was extremely difficult.
So I started writing just about animals and Charlie as a way to
cope with the loss and to speak up for other dogs and shelters.
(15:50):
I thought that would be a way tohonor his his memory.
And with that journey, I startedto realize that there is so much
that I can share with what I've learned along the way.
And then I went back to the shelter to to volunteer
something that I love to do in the municipal pounds, which as
you know, they do have euthanasia.
They're not no kill. We can talk about that so people
(16:12):
can know if you'd like as well so that they understand.
So they have kill rates. And this dog looks so, so much
like Charlie. He was a Pomino, so the same
color, similar size. Someone had abandoned him at the
shelter and he barked a lot and I was worried he was going to
get euthanized. He would recognize me when I'd
come. And luckily my mom ended up
(16:32):
adopting him. So that was cool.
Very cool that she did that. And he lived a long, happy life.
And he was pampered till the end.
But it also awakened me to the reality that what about these
other animals that I'm leaving now that are adoptable, that
they're healthy, that are treatable, that need behavior.
So many need behavior assessments, need some dog
(16:54):
training and they be great dogs and they're not given a chance.
And so then I then I started writing the book about companion
animals and shelter, the sheltersystem and combining my thesis.
But what happened in that time was I started to become aware of
other animals as well and their plight.
So it just turned into a whole book about inspiring people to
just learn more and hopefully get involved in some way.
(17:16):
And you? Really.
I really do have such a wonderful message in your book.
I learned a lot. Thank you.
I was really not familiar with all of the legal stuff.
I'm familiar enough with how shelters work and kill rates and
how dogs end up getting euthanized and all that kind of
stuff. But you really give a full
(17:37):
picture of what it's like and how to be able to identify it in
your own rescue. Because every rescue is
different, just like every dog is different.
Every rescue is different. They have a different set of
rules. They have a different sort of
framework for how it's going to run, how long the dogs have,
what do we do to get them adopted, what kind of programs
(17:59):
they offer. Everything is so completely
different no matter where you gorescue to rescue.
And so it's really important to be able to kind of weed through
the presentation of the rescue and kind of look behind the
curtain to identify what the real needs and real problems
are. And I think that you do a
beautiful job of helping people understand what they need to be
looking for in those situations.Thank.
(18:21):
You. Thank you so much.
That was what I hoped the book would do.
You bring up a lot of information in your book, but
one thing that I think is reallyimportant for just everyone to
know is your acceptable companion animal philosophy
framework. Can you explain what it is and
how it might change how society treats pets to everyone?
(18:42):
Thank you for bringing that up. I I really appreciate that
because that is also the heart of the message of my book.
As I was writing, I realized that we as a society, we care
about our individual pets. And in general, we love dogs and
cats, domesticated animals, and we feel sad for the homeless cat
(19:02):
pets, but we seem to be able to separate ourselves from them.
And so I came up with acceptablecompanion animal philosophy.
The acronym is a cap. So to put a cap on the killing,
first step in honoring in advancing the rights of these
animals is to stop with the euthanasia of healthy,
(19:24):
treatable, adoptable animals. And to come up with other
strategies to increase adoptions, to work with
communities to spay neuter, to not support the unethical
breeders and the pet stores. And just in general, a
philosophy of consensus in whichwe agree that we are not going
to kill animals anymore in the shelter system.
(19:47):
And that's what I came up with as a way to bring us together.
So through my mediation experience, terms of not pulling
people away with cold and perhaps even very distant laws
that can come later. But it's this consensus, this
philosophy, that acceptable companion animal philosophy
means that we accept as a society, as Americans, as
(20:11):
Canadians, for example, then we're going to stop this.
And the way to do that, of course, is through the
governments as a start. Though it is the communities
themselves, right? Because the communities, the
shelters rely on the communities, they take in
people's unwanted pets, for the most part, lost pets.
And then they have these, like you said, the rescues, the
shelters have different ways of dealing with them.
(20:32):
They have timelines, expiry dates.
I was worried about my mom's dog, Gucci, for example.
He'd been there a while. I knew what was coming, so I was
desperate to get him out. But that's how it starts.
And that's the, the heart of my,my proposal that I have not yet
brought to government officials because I was so busy working as
a lawyer and writing books, etcetera.
(20:54):
But that is something that I, I will hopefully do one day.
I never say for sure think it's important.
And that's why I I thought of that as a solution to the
shelter debacle. The biggest problem is that
shelters are still overflowing. Animals are still, as we said,
treated as disposable. Cats, dogs, horses, pigs,
(21:15):
anything that someone sees as a pet, they're crowding up the
shelters because people get tired of them.
They don't want to take care of them.
They're too expensive now, it's sick and they don't want to deal
with that. All of the things and people
find the most ridiculous reasonsto surrender a pet.
But from a legal standpoint, what systematic changes do you
(21:35):
feel are most urgent to help with the overpopulation crisis?
Well, so. That's a really good point of
pets being in shelters is overcrowded or like I like to
call them companion animals and pets are that's your cute name
for them and it's of course relevant.
It is like you said, companion animals, that can include
rabbits even, right? So some shelters do accept
(21:58):
rabbits, some don't. Cats, dogs, rescues that take in
horses, farm animals, etcetera. Systematically.
From a legal perspective, the nokill model is still highly
relevant and important. No kill has been a term that's
been utilized and implemented byshelters and has been
successful. No kill meaning that healthy
(22:20):
adoptable shelter animals will be saved from euthanasia.
However, not every shelter has embraced it or has been able to
follow it. For example, an open policy
shelter that accepts all animals.
Think about that overcrowding that can occur, especially after
the pandemic. So I became the director of a
Humane Society here in Toronto of programs and operations a
(22:43):
couple of years ago. So it was after the pandemic,
when these pandemic pets were being being purchased in droves.
And what happened was when I became the director there, they
were just being surrendered a daily.
People were going back to work, they wanted to travel more.
They realized they were allergic.
They didn't do enough research. So from a systemic legal point
of view, there have to be laws in place that are enforced.
(23:05):
And that's where I come back to my acceptable companion animal
philosophy, which is that killing shelter pets must end.
That is a socially responsible move that we owe these animals,
we bring them into this world and we're systemically allowing
them to be killed. It's just mind bogggling, isn't
(23:26):
it? When there are solutions, talk
about solutions in my book. And so that's something that I'm
very passionate about. I do believe that it is, it is
getting better. Again, ebbs and flows.
We have to remember that ebbs and flows and there are shelters
that are trying their best, not as many do implement the Nokia,
but that does exist. So from a federal level, from a,
(23:48):
from a legislative animal protection policy implementation
date, why that can be something that we can all work toward with
our government officials sort ofindividually so that again, it
doesn't become overwhelming like, oh, what can I do?
But what you can do is get involved, volunteer, find out
from others which shelters are No kill and try to implement
(24:12):
their policies to these other shelters.
It's not that difficult actually.
And I do believe that we're on the way to implementing No Kill.
I do believe that which? Would be really wonderful and
again, this is another area we've talked about this in
podcast episodes before where every state has different laws.
So make sure that you guys are looking at what your state
(24:35):
regulations are. Make sure you're looking at what
your rules and laws for your local shelters are.
Find the shelters that are stillallowing for the kill option
versus the no kill shelters and help at those shelters that are
suffering. Because that is the most
underrated thing about this community is that everyone who
(24:57):
loves dogs, who wants to help dogs, they know that they have
to kind of dig into the hard areas.
And going into those no kill shelters is easy because all of
those dogs are safe. Going into the kill shelters is
hard because you don't know day-to-day, week to week, month
to month, what the environment is going to look like, what dogs
are going to be in there, how many you might get to help for a
(25:19):
few days and then never see again.
It can be really, really awful emotionally, but those are the
areas that really need your voice the most.
Absolutely. That's so well said and it's
extremely important. Also making the connection and
why I encourage people individually, again, they don't
have to become an expert in the field and so many people want to
(25:42):
help and connecting individuallyto an animal, it's just, it's
just amazing. It's a wonderful experience.
And then saving that animal, it just becomes almost contagious
because you realize that you canmake a difference.
And with enough of our voices together trying to encourage
these changes, it will happen eventually.
(26:03):
It has to because this cannot continue.
I mean, when I, I hear about these gas chambers in certain
states being banned, I'm like thinking this is still
happening. It is.
But when you hear that one's closed down, that's progress.
So we have to celebrate the small steps toward eradicating
this whole system of killing shelter pets on an individual
(26:25):
and or community level. We had a community here in
Canada and Toronto that was focused on no kill in the
municipal shelters. And also some people might be
interested in making it their jobs vying for these positions
because we want compassionate leaders in the shelter systems,
even in the kill shelters, because they then will implement
policies. Laws are one thing, but there
(26:46):
are internal policies which are much easier to pass than the
laws themselves. And advocate for live release
rates. There are so many small things
that can turn into big things, and I really believe that if we
could just again come together as a community that it would be
much easier to change a lot of this if our voices were louder
(27:08):
than they are right now. Yes.
Yes, I know there's a lot going on in the world and I know most
of us care. They want to do something.
There are so many compassionate choices that we can make.
You can adopt if you can adopt. Even fostering is amazing.
So many people don't realize that you take that animal out of
the shelter system, a lonely, dark, cold place, and you give
(27:30):
them a love. And you in Richmond, you can't
afford to have an animal fostering.
Some shelters will even pay for the food in the veterinary care
and provide training so that you're giving that animal a
chance of finding a loving home.So there are so many things that
can be done. Like if you don't want to go to
the legislation, that's, you know, that's understandable.
That can be a little intimidating, right?
(27:51):
But that's OK because it's all of us coming together and doing
something that will be the voicefor these animals and so that
the killing can stop. All the jobs need to be filled.
All of the jobs need to be filled, yes.
That's right. Absolutely.
Absolutely beyond. Your book also covers wildlife,
farm animals, and lab animals. How do you envision building a
(28:13):
unified framework that protects all animals without diluting
focus? Obviously, I would love to
advocate for every species of animals because I believe that
it is a holistic 'cause I believe that every animal,
including a wild animal, farm animal, companion animal, is a
(28:34):
sentient being. They're alive, they have
emotions, they have feelings, and so advocating for all of
them is something that I deeply do believe in.
But I do think it starts with the companion animals because of
the close connection. My own journey in expanding the
book to have chapters on wildlife and farm animals wasn't
(28:54):
what I intended initially because I too had connections
with companion animals only until I started visiting farm
sanctuaries. And I remember meeting a pig
named Penelope who wagged her tail, a little black pig, and
she ran up to greet me and then lay on her back for for a belly
rub. And in meeting those farm
animals, I make the connection that they all deserve protection
(29:18):
so it is a unified cause. And stronger animal protection
laws are necessary for all animals.
The strategies may differ, but the value of their lives does
not. Yeah, I I completely agree.
It's something that I struggle with a lot, honestly, where
people don't recognize that animals are sentient beings,
(29:39):
that they have thoughts, that they have emotions, and that
they have expressed feelings about the things that are
happening around them. It just doesn't make sense to me
how people don't recognize that because we measure intelligence
in such a different way. As humans, we don't give animals
the credit they deserve because they don't speak.
And so we we can't measure that intelligence the same way
(30:03):
because we feel that because they cannot express themselves
verbally, they're not on the same level as us.
But in most cases, I think dogs are like way beyond us.
Yeah, that's why. Well, they have. 1/6 sense,
right? I mean, I I talk about, for
example, in the book, a shelter dog named Peanut who was
severely abused and she was a small dog.
(30:26):
She ended up luckily getting adopted and she saved little
girl with her 6th sense. So her new guardians or new pet
parents saw her barking one day outside and human guardian went
to see what was why is she barking like this?
And she found a little girl in aditch, 3 year old little girl
who was being abused. And that sixth sense is
(30:49):
something we can learn from thisanimal that had been abused,
that didn't let that destroy herability to love and to live life
and to use her senses to help another human being.
And that's why I say animals areactually incredible.
And we can learn so much from them, whether it be a dog, cat,
farm animal. My friend and I just found a
(31:11):
little baby squirrel and we ended up rescuing it.
And it's, it was just so precious and needed to be bottle
fed. We didn't know where to take.
So we looked up wildlife sanctuary.
They took the the squirrel in and I realized this is just a
baby. So really, I mean, they have
different lives. They may not be as intimately
connected to us as the dogs and calves, but all animals are
(31:33):
sentient beings. I I'm sure that most of us would
would agree with that based on the scientific research now
that's coming out and the evidence of that.
So as we learn more, hopefully we can connect more to them as
individuals, the personalities, too.
Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think so.
I think that will happen incrementally, right, With time.
(31:54):
But first, we need to stop the killing in the shelter so that
that becomes something archaic, part of our history as opposed
to being done in the present day.
Yeah. So that's something that's quite
urgent. And I would, I would please
encourage other people to becomeinvolved to help change that
with their local shelters. And then it can become a
(32:15):
hopefully a federal law that it is simply outlawed.
I. Really hope so.
I feel the same way. I feel that we're trending in
that direction because there's so many people who are so much
more vocal and passionate about animals now than there used to
be. Yeah.
Feel like there's been a cultural shift in how we look at
pets and how we treat farm life and just other animals in
(32:37):
general. I really do think that we're
headed in the right direction. Absolutely we are.
I mean, I can say happily when Istarted the practice over a
decade ago and practice for almost a decade, how much has
changed since then? The landscape and animal cruelty
laws that are passing almost weekly.
I like to post on my LinkedIn happy news stories all over the
(32:59):
world, in particular in the States with the animal cruelty.
That too is something that is hugely important and it's
connected to that whole idea of protecting companion animals
from abuse, right? And then all over the world.
I read today before the podcast actually, that India country
that has so stray animal, millions of stray animals, the
(33:20):
Supreme Court passed a law that stray animals have a
constitutional life to food and protection.
So they're not going to be killing a million stray dogs.
That's an important message globally, that people are
standing up for compassion and realizing that these animals are
innocent and we are the decisionmakers and we have the ability
(33:41):
to speak up for them both individually and collectively
through our communities, throughthese consensus models, working
with our shelter systems to making individual choices,
adopting, fostering. If you can't do either, those
share, share, share, share. Social media can be a powerful
motivator and these animals justneed people to speak up for
(34:03):
them. And I'm seeing so much of that,
which is amazing from when I started.
A lot of hope. Good, good.
I like to leave on a hopeful message.
There is that. Yeah.
We need to, we need to leave it hopeful for people.
We don't want people to feel overwhelmed or sad.
I don't want to do that. I'm hoping to inspire and
motivate and and leave people with something like a take away
(34:26):
message, which is small changes can lead to big changes.
One individual act of kindness can change the world for one
animal, which then spirals out. Yeah.
Absolutely. That ripple effect is powerful
and so many different aspects ofour lives it.
Is it is and it's really it's really up to us to do something
it. Really is and you are doing that
(34:48):
you you started off in a courtroom and now you've moved
to writing and media and advocacy What made that shift
come about for you and why is itimportant when.
I left the practice. I wanted to continue my advocacy
work, which I felt could have more of an impact.
The courts were very important and the practice was also very,
(35:11):
very fulfilling for a time. From a more holistic
perspective, the advocacy point is where I'm more passionate to
be able to make changes both incrementally and more
holistically. For example, now I'm doing a
series of a YouTube series called A Voice for Animals where
I'm visiting animal rescues and sanctuaries and I've just
(35:32):
wrapped up the summer series of that and sharing the stories of
the animals. So the individual animals.
And I'm just writing a new book what animals can teach us.
And hopefully those those acts will lead to some people
learning more about animals themselves and what they can do
individually. That's.
Incredible. That's incredible.
And for anybody who's listening right now that wants to help,
(35:56):
but they're probably feeling a little overwhelmed right now and
they don't know where to start, what's 1.
Action step that you would recommend they can take today
that would lead them in the right direction 1.
Action step, I would say, is to do your research.
If you're interested in helping an animal or a shelter or an
organization, it's so easy to goonline and to do some research
(36:19):
in terms of what resonates with you, what fuels you, what feels
passionate, because that's something that will likely draw
you to the right path. Whether again back to adopting,
fostering, volunteering, donating or simply sharing on
social media, or dedicating youryour vocation to legislation
(36:41):
being passed by becoming a politician, all of us
individually can make a difference.
So I would say to just start small.
Start small and just do some research.
If you don't know what you're getting yourself into, then it's
gonna be even more confusing andstressful.
So definitely take a look at what's going on around you and
and figure out where you feel comfortable starting where you
(37:01):
feel. Comfortable.
That's right, Because that's that's gonna motivate you.
I would say more than anything else, more than anything I can
say because my journey is is personal and unique and everyone
else's will be too, no less, no more.
Just because someone becomes an expert in the field doesn't mean
that they're doing more than someone who goes into a shelter
(37:23):
and saves an animal's life from euthanasia today, from a till
shelter. That's just as impactful,
important and then shares when people like I walk my rescue dog
Oakley, who we met before the podcast, and I love to say he's
a rescue and I know your dogs are, which is again, educating,
sharing. You can have lovely dogs.
They don't have to come from breeders or pet stores.
(37:46):
Absolutely. And with all that being said,
everything that you've put together with your career, what
do you hope that your legacy andanimal law and advocacy will be
My. Own personal legacy, I hope, is
that compassion and policy can be combined.
So with my background as a animal rights lawyer, that
understanding animals individually as unique sentient
(38:09):
beings is just as important as it is to change laws.
And combining the two would be the ultimate hope for my work to
bridge that gap in terms of not being seen as property and to
have supportive family members. And my husband, my kids have
gone into rescues and sanctuaries with me, and
(38:30):
hopefully other people's family members can too.
It's so inspirational when somebody takes their passion,
takes their their love for animals or whatever their
passion is, but because we're talking about animals, take
their love for animals and then just causes this huge ripple
effect throughout the community.Like you said, one voice, right?
You're just one voice, but you've impacted everyone who's
(38:53):
read your book. You've impacted your own family
members. You even got your mom to adopt A
dog that you fell in love with. So look at all of the change
that just one voice can make. I think that's a really huge
message for everyone who's need to hear.
Well, I mean, what you're doing is, is wonderful and and I just
I'm inspired by your work and what you're doing because again,
(39:14):
you're elevating, you're bringing this this to the
viewers attention and that's hugely important.
I hope also to empower the youthto empower others to want to
become advocates. I hope that that's another
reason I wrote this book to hopefully inspire someone else
to want to continue to become anadvocate and to do something in
(39:35):
the movement because there's so much to be done and so many ways
to contribute. We.
Don't talk about the things thatwe as a society have been told
we shouldn't talk about. Those are the areas that we're
struggling in. And that is why I do what I do.
That's why you do what you do. Because if we don't educate, if
we don't spread the word, if we don't teach people that there's
(39:56):
so much behind it and there's such a bigger picture that has
to be tackled, we can't make change.
We have to do the things that nobody else is willing to do in
order for there to be progressive change.
And it's easy. It's not easy in times of.
Course it is, of course, Especially when you're going
against the grain. Of course it is.
But let me tell you, it is so fulfilling.
(40:19):
Nothing fills my heart and soul more than when I feel that I've
done something for an animal in need.
And I'm sure that most people that care about animals would
feel the same way no less. It's extremely fulfilling and it
can be one small act. Again, I'd say kindness.
They can can have ripple effectsinto the into the other areas
(40:40):
it's. Crazy how much one small thing
can make such a big change. So what's next for you?
Do you have new projects, new writing?
Or are you just going to try to continue to grow this movement
for A Voice for Animals? I am writing the new book, What
Animals Teach Us, from Mike's experience of this YouTube
series that I just wrapped up this summer, visiting
(41:00):
sanctuaries, mainly farm animals, and highlighting their
stories and continuing with that.
And I have an organization called Center for Animal
Advocacy that I've had for a while that I'm going to continue
and get more people involved in.So that's super exciting so
people can learn more about at the animal laws in simple ways
(41:21):
and what they can do without feeling overwhelmed.
So I'll have that up on my website, Susanna Gartner dot
com. I'll have a link there if
anyones interested in finding out how do I get involved in my
own community? What do I do?
Just a simple thing. Then I'll have that information
out, hopefully start that this this fall and just continuing my
advocacy work and spreading somemotivation and inspiration.
(41:45):
I look forward to following yourjourney and maybe connecting
with you after you release your certain book.
Yeah, I'd love that. I just think it gives us such an
opportunity, especially what ouranimals teach us.
I mean, that's something that everybody who loves animals can
tune into and learn something from.
I think what you're doing is really important work, and I
appreciate you being here today sharing your heart, your
(42:07):
expertise, and your passion for giving animals a voice.
It's such a powerful message that I think everyone needs to
hear. So I have one final question,
Sure. And that is, what would you like
to leave the listeners with? I'd like to leave the myth
listeners with hope. Hope that we are making positive
changes for animals. That every day I hear a positive
(42:28):
news story, share an animal law change for the positive, that I
will likely write a post about and and deployed to LinkedIn.
And that inspires me. And I'd like to say that there
is definitely so much that can be done and is being done to
make better lives for animals inneed.
(42:49):
And that our voices do matter. One voice makes a difference.
And that's the difference between this book that I wrote,
which is more advocacy based, asyou've said, like learning about
what can be done, you know, on alegislative level individual.
Whereas What Animals Teach Us isreally an inspirational read for
a mainstream person that just wants to understand how animals
(43:12):
show us love and how they make us better humans.
Excellent. Tell everyone how they can get
in touch with you, where they can find your book and all of
the things. OK.
Sure. So I have the website at
susannahgartner.com so feel freeto message me and contact me
spot or you can subscribe to thenewsletter blogs if you want to
learn about topics that resonatefor animals.
(43:35):
Otherwise I have LinkedIn, Susanna, Gartner, Instagram.
I am definitely reachable and accessible so if anyone has any
questions feel free to reach out.
Amazing. Well you guys, thank you so much
for being here this week. Remember to be kind, spread joy
and lead with hope in your dogs lives and we will see you next
week on Straight Up Dog Talk. Thank you for listening to
(43:57):
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with clear next steps for training, nutrition, or
enrichment that actually fit youand your dog.
(44:19):
The link is in the show notes. New episodes drop every Monday
and Wednesday. I'll see you next time.
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