#9: From Pro Snowboarder to Thriving Entrepreneur with Barry Hartman: Co-Founder of 505-Junk

In this episode, I sit down with Barry Hartman, co-founder and CEO of 505-Junk, one of Canada's fastest-growing junk removal companies. Barry's journey is anything but conventional. From taking odd jobs in the fast food and restaurant industry to becoming a professional snowboarder, Barry's path to entrepreneurship is inspiring and motivational.

Barry shares candid stories about his early work experiences, including how drinking one too many milkshakes led to his first firing and how a chance conversation during a recovery from a busted ankle inspired him to buy a junk removal truck. We delve into the concept of being "Super Unemployable," discussing what it means to Barry and how it has shaped his entrepreneurial spirit.

Throughout the episode, Barry talks about the importance of family, balancing work and personal life, and his aspirations for 505-Junk. He also opens up about the challenges he faced, including financial missteps and the pivotal decision to pivot from a franchise model to a corporate growth strategy.

Join us for an inspiring conversation filled with valuable insights on strategic planning, the role of mentorship, and the importance of aligning business growth with personal values. 

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
From taking odd jobs in the fast food and restaurant industry,
to becoming a professional snowboarder, and then going on to found one of Canada's
fastest growing junk removal companies, we've got Barry Hartman on the show.
Barry sits down with me and we talk about family, work, priorities,

(00:20):
success, and everything in between.
In addition, Barry shares a story
about how drinking one too many milkshakes led to his ultimate first firing
and how a chance conversation while he had a busted up ankle led to him buying
his own junk removal truck and then going on to co-found and become the CEO
of 505 Junk here in Vancouver.

(00:43):
Is Barry the super unemployable?
I'm not recording video as well just so you know
so you don't need to feel like you need to look any
certain way you can just pound red bulls or whatever you want
to do while we talk just to make life easy thank you
okay so no I'm ready yeah that's cool so this is so no no video this is all

(01:05):
audio just gonna do audio so we can relax have a conversation yeah stand up
then let's do whatever you want
to do we want to take the pressure off and not worry about how we look.
Let's just worry about how we sound. Like it.
Let's do it. Let's do it. All right.
Barry, really glad to have you on the podcast. Thanks so much for having me. Stoked to be here.

(01:27):
Yeah. So it's been a while. Barry and I met, I don't know, it was like a decade ago at an EO event.
Yeah. Yeah. Entrepreneurs organization. Yeah. Right. Yeah. There's a few Vancouver.
I think we did Toronto as well. Yeah. So it's well, and you're based in Vancouver
for everybody's context and I'm based out of Vancouver as well.
And I'm actually, I've been a customer of your services and they're fantastic.

(01:49):
505 junk is, is the place to be. Yeah. I remember that. Thank you so much.
Yeah. You guys did a great job.
Yeah, that's the, that's, that's what we want to do. We want to help you get your space back.
All right. So Barry, let's kick this off. What does it mean to you to be super unemployable?
Oh, I mean, I feel like I've been that way since I was young.

(02:12):
Like even when I was dating back to maybe like 12 years old,
we were going door to door knocking on people.
Not that you're employable at 12.
All the, my parents probably thought I was around the house,
but the just just going door to door and like asking people can i wash your
car for five bucks can i walk your dog for seven bucks and like we had this
whole system going with a couple friends and

(02:35):
and then we get to this is a good one i got
my first job was working at mcdonald's when i was 14 yes me too first time yeah
you gotta start there right yeah oh yeah it was great i was i was really excited
to jump into it i had a couple friends that worked there and it honestly really
didn't work out well for me.

(02:56):
I was working and just, I don't know, I was enjoying being there,
but not really enjoying the work so much.
And they said that food's 50% off, but drinks are free.
And so I misinterpreted milkshake for a drink.
And that didn't go over well. So I lost my job.
However, I got headhunted by white spot, and took on a job for eight bucks an hour.

(03:18):
So that was my second job. And that was actually really enjoyed that one.
But to be super unemployable, I mean, look, like I've been an entrepreneur for
basically all of my life, even dating back to the professional snowboarding days.
And so I honestly don't know if I am employable or not, but just purely based
on the fact that I've never really had a job outside of like sort of self-starter type stuff,

(03:41):
whether it's like running a proper business like 505 Junk or more like solopreneur
stuff like snowboarding.
Yeah, that's just sort of been my journey. So I don't really know any other way.
So was White Spot your last stop over at true employment or were there others?
There was a few. I moved to Whistler when I was 17 and I had a night janitor

(04:03):
job from 5 p.m. to 3 a.m. And then we'd go snowboarding at 8.
So that was, I didn't mind that one. That was pretty just like autopilot work.
Just listen to your music and get the job done.
And it allows us to kind of, you know, snowboard every day when we're living up there.
And then in the summertime, I was working construction labor and delivering pizza in the evening,

(04:26):
just trying to save a bit of money and actually broke my ankle playing soccer
in that summertime off from snowboarding.
And that's when I decided like, okay, maybe this snowboarding thing is like
not my calling for this upcoming year, upcoming season.
Season it was going to be my fourth season going into it and I just kind of

(04:48):
like let some of my sponsors know I was like look I don't think I'm going to
keep doing this I've had a lot of fun a lot of travel super grateful for the
experience but I got to look sort of in a different direction,
and so I enrolled at Kwantlen actually to study marketing management and that's
when I was doing sort of like the two sort of side jobs as well and I started

(05:11):
writing a business plan because Because the company that I was working for at
the time, MP Construction,
he was like, if you had a pickup truck, you could just be hauling construction
debris to the recycling center.
And I was like, OK, well, I guess I'll try and figure out a pickup truck.
So I got that. And then we bought a trailer.
And then I was like, I quit. Thanks for the idea.

(05:32):
And we started hauling junk, pretty much, with a pickup truck and trailer.
My business partner, co-founder Scott Ford, I met at Kwantlen.
We launched the business together.
And it was just a pickup truck and a trailer. And we've sort of grown it ever since.
So that's, it sounds like that was a bit of a turning point for you.
Like the jobs that you had previously were just to make some money so you could

(05:53):
follow your passion because you were a pro snowboarder for quite a few years.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was really fun. I definitely didn't look at
that like a job, partially because we didn't get paid that much,
but also more so because it was just like, we were literally just having fun every day.
Like the job part was like you needed to go to some form of a party until like
two o'clock in the morning and then still get up and go film in the morning.

(06:16):
That was like the quote unquote like hard part.
But it was it was tons of fun. So it's like at no point were we ever like,
oh, this feels like a job.
Right. Did it, was it entrepreneurial in a way?
I imagine you're kind of, you're getting paid based on how often you show up,
but you really do have that option or do you not? Were you bound to a contract?

(06:38):
Oh, it was, well, there's contracts for sure. Like some of the bigger companies,
like I, I had a sponsor from Smith, Smith optics, they do like ski and snowboard goggles.
And, and they, they had a, we had a contract that said like,
you get paid X amount when you do this event,
you get paid X amount for, you know, when you get this photo in a magazine,
and here's like the list of products that you get

(06:59):
and all that kind of stuff and then some of the smaller well
not they weren't all small but there was like
a sense of business development in a sense as well I remember
being 16 years old and either going into grade 12 or just wrapping up I think
maybe 17 I remember emailing this guy Sean Neff and I was like hey I really
like your clothing brand like would be interested to work together and he got

(07:23):
back to me and he just wrote yes and And I was like, well, this guy must be busy.
And so I followed up and he CC'd his head of marketing at the time.
And so we went back and forth. And I just remember hearing about Neff.
And within the next few years, that company just exploded.
They got Snoop Dogg on board.

(07:45):
They were selling out at every single trade show. Every ski shop on the planet was carrying them.
And I think they got it up to about $200 million in revenue.
You and he was when i initially reached out
to him he was just sort of selling toques with his last name sean neff or beanies
for the americans out of his backpack at ski resorts and just like handing out

(08:07):
product to snowboarders that he thought you know were cool and wanted to wrap
his gear so it was very entrepreneurial from that sense like a lot of like product a lot of branding.
You know some business development in a way because of the sponsorships,
but yeah we definitely learned a lot from it yeah for
sure so fast forward you're working

(08:27):
at this construction company now and he says if
you've got a truck and the average person might say well
i don't have a truck and move on from that conversation your thought was why
don't we go get a truck like that's a different divergence right you know it's
a fork in the road really it is where somebody presents opportunity and this
comes up a lot in the podcast when we when we talk to guests has this idea around

(08:50):
opportunity and timing,
you know, is that luck or are you just in the right place and you,
or you put yourself in that place, but you're presented with this fork and you
go, I'm going to go the road less traveled, which is start putting your neck on the line a bit, right?
Cause when you got to buy things, acquire things that cost money and time that's
diverted away from other activities.

(09:11):
Tell us about that decision process. Yeah. So.
One of my really good friends, Connor, his brother had a little junk removal
company in the town that I was in.
And I saw he, I went out and just did a bit of labor with him a couple of times.
And he, he sort of showed me like, you know, Hey, look, this is what I'm doing.

(09:32):
It's kind of interesting.
And then, and then my, the construction boss was like, you should get a truck and go and haul junk.
So I had these like two callings coming at me where I saw the other,
I saw the, I saw the actual junk removal company and and
I was like that that seems really cool like you're going to people's homes you're
helping them we haul the material out you recycle
it after like seems pretty straightforward something like

(09:56):
a college dropout like myself could probably pull together and
get going right away and then the
construction side was like yeah you know you should get a truck and
I thought about it I was like I should get a truck it wasn't
like oh yeah you're just saying that it was like I literally should go get a
truck and so I acted on it and we didn't have any money actually I had about

(10:17):
$500 and and five grand on my credit card and and and so and my business partner
really didn't have much either and so we actually just financed it through TD Bank.
And then we worked with Futurepreneur as a not-for-profit organization to get our first $15,000 loan.
And that went in the business bank account. And off we went with our truck and

(10:39):
trailer. And the trailer was found on the side of the road in Chilliwack.
We paid the guy about $700 for it. And anyways, we attached the two.
And then we literally drove to the first job site from the vehicle dealership.
And that's when we knew it was like, okay, it wasn't a lot.
It was like we got $150 to move something from point A to point B.

(11:03):
It wasn't even junk removal.
They just wanted us to use the trailer as one of Scott's contacts.
And that's when I was like, well, that we definitely got underpaid for that job.
But relative to what I'm familiar with, that seems like a really cool opportunity.
And we just went all in on marketing shortly after that, which we could talk

(11:24):
about a little bit if you want.
But yeah, that was sort of like the tipping point where once we
had committed to the to the bank loan with
the truck we were like all in because we had to pay this
thing off so were you
still employed at this time or had you quit the construction job
like were you or your business partner still earning income or were you now
all in to this i actually i i guess i don't know if i quit or just like literally

(11:49):
couldn't work but i when i broke my ankle playing soccer i was sort of like
in the cast leg up on the couch coach for quite a few months.
So I wrote the business plan after breaking my ankle.
And then Scott came on board, you know, partway through writing the business plan.
And so all this happened sort of like, well, still in college,

(12:11):
but not really that employee.
My parents hooked me up a little bit. They paid me, I think,
twelve bucks an hour to run some social media for their travel agency.
They had like an Expedia cruise ship center's travel agency.
That that was sort of their thing. They're like income earner.
And I don't know how much value I added at the time.
I definitely learned a lot about social media, but we were setting up there.

(12:34):
I set up their Google, my business profile, and we drove a bunch of reviews
to it. We popped up their SEO a little bit.
So who knows? Maybe it added value. Maybe it didn't. But I did that for about
a month and that helped me get by.
And then once 505 Junk launched, the cool thing
about that business model is is you can generate revenue
from day one it's not like there's a lot of like product development or you

(12:57):
know technology build out that you need to do you literally just need good marketing
and a pickup truck and a trailer to get started right you you entered the market
though against arguably the most famous canadian junk removal company,
and they were a few years ahead of you weren't they oh yeah
they were all of the years ahead when we came

(13:18):
in i think they were doing a quarter billion dollars in revenue and we
were at like a quarter hundred dollars in
revenue but yeah and they were they did
it in the backyard so it but at the same time though is at that time we weren't
looking at them as competitors we were looking at them as more as like inspiration
and just knowing that something large and at scale could be built from this

(13:42):
business model was inspiring to go and tackle it head on.
And yeah when i look back at it it was sort of
like i never wanted to just have a pickup
truck in a trailer that was that that was like sort of the the hail mary like
broken ankle dropping out of college like no real career in place like need

(14:04):
to do something so that it helped do that but at the same time the other side
of the equation was like i always envisioned this to be
like a like a serious business like a larger business
like a nationwide business and and so we're
we've implemented it to get to a point where we're like partway
there but there's still like a long journey ahead and that
was sort of like how it was originally set up was to to yeah build it to have

(14:28):
like a long journey and and we also wanted to do so so that was one side to
it the other side to it is knowing that 1-800-GOT-JUNK is literally in the backyard
and I lived in Vancouver at the time living to us now,
but I literally live like I could almost see them from the building when I moved into Vancouver and,
and they, they,

(14:49):
yeah they just well their trucks are everywhere i mean oh yeah at the time that
was wasn't that their marketing strategy they would park the trucks yeah in
high visibility spots and use them essentially like billboards yeah yeah they
call it parketing and they budget for.
The fines from the city into their marketing
budget so they'll say we'll park the truck here they're not

(15:11):
going to tow it but they'll they'll find us they'll give us a ticket
and that just goes to the marketing expense it's kind
of it's a lot cheaper than a billboard isn't it i mean a billboard per
day is costing you significantly more thousands of
dollars a month in vancouver yeah right and so yeah so that was sort of like
where we want but we wanted to be different because there's literally we did

(15:31):
some market research there's about 200 junk removal companies in vancouver and
they all range from like absolute garbage no pun intended to like good quality companies.
And there's everything in between, probably like every industry.
And that's just based on like the reviews online. And so we wanted to stand
out a little bit. So we implemented some technology that had not been done yet.

(15:52):
And we built onboard weighing systems directly into the trucks after about two
years in business, three years in business.
And just describe to us what that is, because I'm not familiar with that term.
Yeah. So the entire industry chart bills by volume. So how much fills the truck?
And so it's a bit subjective sometimes if it's filled at three quarters.

(16:13):
I mean, if you have a really good business, good training, good customer service,
and you like stack the truck well, then you could argue that,
you know, that works well.
And so there's no right or wrong way, but we just wanted to be different and
go after more of a commercial market as well.
And so we put onboard weighing systems in the trucks, allowing us to charge by exact weight.
So if we loaded like half a truck or half, you know, if we loaded material into

(16:37):
the truck and it was twelve hundred pounds, we just print the weight ticket
and attach that twelve hundred pound weight ticket to the invoice and then off we go.
So the thing that we were looking for was like transparency, transparency.
In an industry that sometimes doesn't have the best reputation,
like a lot of home services, plumbing and whatnot, even mechanics,

(16:58):
they sort of have that reputation of like, when you get a good one,
it's like, oh, yeah, we got a good one.
And they get referred, and they get high traffic, they're, they're booked out,
you know, they got good reviews.
And then there's the opposite, where it's like, oh, yeah, I had a really crappy
experience with that mechanic. And I really don't want to work with them again.
So we just want it to be the a good one. And one way to prove that early on

(17:19):
was to just have accountability rate built into the business model.
Fantastic. So you broke your ankle.
A guy talks to you about buying a truck. And the next thing you know,
you've got aspirations of Canada-wide expansion.
I think for a lot of people, it's easy to envision that, right?

(17:40):
You come up with a business idea, you see your locations all across the country,
and then all of a sudden you're there in your your mind. I know I was one of those entrepreneurs.
First day we launched our store,
I was like, oh, we're going to do 20,000 in sales. We did 200 bucks.
The gap between vision and reality, that's a big chasm.
And as you mentioned, you guys
are still working towards that and probably settled into that groove now.

(18:03):
But early in the journey, I can imagine there must have been stumbling points,
areas where you questioned yourself.
Did you have mentorship or guidance? What helped you get to that next leg from vision to reality?
That's a good question. Actually, the first person that I reached out to was

(18:25):
the founder of Cruise Ship Centers. His name's Michael Drever.
He had recently sold Cruise Ship Centers to Expedia for, I think it was about $30 million.
It's sort of like an unknown number, but...
Yeah, there's sort of just discussions
around that. And that was back in 2011. It was a really big exit.

(18:46):
And so I was like, surely he knows a thing or two about business.
And I reached out to him because my parents had bought a franchise off him,
like number seven or something like that. So they had a good relationship with him over the years.
And I reached out to him and he was more than, he was so, I've never met,
I like, I was, I've never been so shocked with how generous as someone can be

(19:10):
with their time, given the fact that they are operating at such a higher level than we were.
We were like a week into business and he was like 20 years into business,
like, you know, doing hundreds of millions of dollars in cruise ship sales revenue.
And he was like, yeah, sure. I'll meet block off.

(19:30):
It was something like one to 2 PM on a Thursday, day somewhere in West Vancouver where he lives.
And so we meet up and we sat in that coffee shop for three hours and he just
like basically downloaded all of the information we needed to answer your question,
which he was like, you guys got a good vision and you got your truck.

(19:52):
And like, so you need to figure out strategic planning.
And so literally the, one of
the first things we ever did was build out a really solid strategic plan.
And we looked at our sales and and our marketing, and our operations,
and everything that sort of goes into bringing.
A business, not just a business to life, but also a year to life,

(20:16):
and a quarter to life, and a month to life.
And so he really sort of helped build that system for us and walk us through
a lot of the EO stuff that we talked about before, and walk us through sort of a lot of the.
Traction is the book I was just trying to think of and so
that that sort of set us up properly from the get-go and

(20:37):
I do feel very like fortunate that we just so happened to you know get a yes
from someone when we reached out for like that early support because otherwise
I don't know what we would have done we I didn't even know what an invoice was
to be honest with you my business partner still makes fun of me to this day
that he's like yeah Barry didn't even know what an
invoice was in the first week fortunately i managed a flooring shop and so he

(21:00):
knew that that administrative side of business but yeah it was it was a big
learning curve in the beginning yeah it sounds like that mentorship was i mean
you can't even put a price on that that where you mentioned where you'd be without
it be a totally different scenario,
yeah it's it definitely helped us like reel things in quickly and and make sure

(21:22):
we didn't like Like, I mean, we made a lot of mistakes, don't get me wrong.
But that just like helped us get like build a good foundation from day one.
So let's talk about that mistakes, because I think that's another part of the
journey that people are aware of, but they're not necessarily always prepared for.
And one of my favorite quotes is success is not linear.

(21:44):
If you look at all the greatest entrepreneurs of all time and you look at some
of their failures along the way, some are so epic.
You see depression in there. years of depression. And, and I see that in a lot
of entrepreneurs and it can often be the difference maker between actually survival
or just throwing your hands up and quitting and doing something else with your life.

(22:05):
And again, for me anyway, what makes me so super unemployable is the sheer fear
of going back and working for somebody else never allows me to give up maybe sometimes to a fault.
How did you guys manage some of those early setbacks? What were some of your techniques?
The biggest one that I can think of is our bank.

(22:26):
And I won't say who, but our bank at the time had advised us when we bought
our second truck, they advised us to buy it using our line of credit.
And I didn't realize at the time that the purpose of a line of credit was to
sit behind the cash in your bank for rainy days,
not to create rainy days and then therefore have no more available free cash

(22:50):
flow after you've just gone and spent all that money.
And so that I can't remember. We had like a $40,000 line of credit.
This is probably like year three.
We were fortunate to get that LLC from the bank because we were pretty new into business.
But the advice to go and spend it all on a truck when we could have just leased
it and kept that free cash flow

(23:11):
or kept that available line of credit was probably not the best advice.
And I mean it was my fault for taking it and running with it I didn't think
twice or question it but yeah that was a big challenge because we were literally
like down to like negative 35 grand on the LOC we had 40,000 in availability
and no one's going to give you any more money after that,

(23:33):
and so the we were kind of hooped at that point and so it forced us to really.
Dial in like focusing on revenue making
sure our gross profit margin was the right
balance of good pricing for the customer but not
too low so that the business is unsustainable and then also just living living

(23:57):
and operating a business like personally living and also like operating a business
fairly frugally in the beginning from like an overhead standpoint because there
was is no other way like we would have just gone bankrupt.
And obviously there's like only one goal in business as a minimum,
but it's not to go bankrupt outside of all the upside things like,

(24:20):
you know, building a good business and, you know, focusing on good environmental
initiatives and taking care of your team.
Like outside of all the, the, the true purpose, it's like stay afloat.
And if you can't do that, then you can't do any of the other fun stuff we just talked about.
Yeah. I think a lot of entrepreneurs get sidetracked with that bigger vision again,

(24:41):
where vision meets reality because cashflow is king and you learn that and you
meet a lot of entrepreneurs who like you, but learned that the hard way and
did end up in a spot where they couldn't get out. The hole was too deep.
They maybe didn't have the cashflow model that would get them out.
So, you know, you mentioned something really impactful for me,

(25:02):
which is this idea that you live frugally, both through the business and personally.
But that's kind of hard, isn't it? When you see other friends who maybe have
a finance degree and they're buying their car and getting a new house.
And my favorite quote, you hear this in the podcast all the time from Mark Cuban,
is entrepreneurs live like others won't, so someday they can live like others can't.
But that's a hard decision to make, especially when you're younger and people

(25:26):
are just doing things that maybe you don't have access to.
Did you ever doubt yourself? did you ever doubt the direction that you took
with, with 505 junk or were you always steadfast that this was going to be your
future? That's a really good question.
I'll be honest. I never had any doubt. I was all, I was, I think I got it from my mom.
She, she really like enforced in me, you know, you can, you can literally do anything you want.

(25:50):
You just have to set your mind to it and setting your mind to it means just
being like committed to it and don't just like sort of, move off.
And I knew the business model was a pretty sustainable one in a sense that there's
a constant flow of demand for garbage.
You know or junk removal or construction waste or whatever it may

(26:10):
be there's a huge market out there as long
as you just like are are good at marketing good at
sales and treat the customers well then in
theory we should just be able to like power through this that being said though
like there were times when i've like doubted my ability to take it to the next
step the next level and and that's when i you know it's a humbling reality check

(26:34):
to go back to the drawing board and say,
okay, maybe I don't currently have the skills required to take this business.
You know, from a hundred grand a month to 200 grand a month and 200 grand a
month to 400 grand a month.
And, you know, basically being like at capacity in Vancouver in the next year
or two and, and scaling out to Toronto.
And, and, and what does that look like? Are you bringing on investors?

(26:57):
Are you greenfielding there? Are we going to do an acquisition for a company out there?
And, And once that's done, you know, how do you roll it all together?
And so those questions always play through my head, but I don't necessarily
see them as like a negative.
I just look at them as go, okay, there's my curious business brain is asking
me a whole bunch of questions.

(27:19):
And my business coach, Dan Martell, he often says like the person you are today
may not be the person you need to be in the future.
And it's your responsibility to become that future self in order for the business to grow with you.
And yeah, that's sort of been a big focus point.

(27:39):
It's just like making sure that the business doesn't outgrow me.
And I'm always like, you know, a few steps, maybe a couple years ahead from
a leadership perspective of where the business is at, so that I can keep sort
of carrying it along the way.
There's a deep sense of reflection that you have to go through.
Like you've got to go deep, deep inside to ask yourself those questions.

(28:02):
Because on the surface, I think it's always easy to envision yourself as the
founder and the one who knows best.
But there could be a stage where the company outgrows you. I was just listening
to Diaries of a CEO, which is one of my favorite podcasts.
And he had one of the founders of Netflix on there who had to ultimately make
that decision and step back because there was somebody who was more capable

(28:23):
than him that could take Netflix further.
And the question always remains, I think for him, and it came through in the
podcast is what would have been if I'd stayed, but he certainly now knows what became after he left.
He still stayed obviously involved with the company.
How do you ask yourself those difficult questions?
Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, we've gone through our own sort of unique.

(28:51):
Big challenges, I guess, over the years, like the original vision that I had
for 505 Junk was to franchise it.
And I saw what 1-800-GOT-JUNK did, you know, I saw it a company in the US,
College Hunks Hauling Junk, they're, you know, big, big company now,
a couple hundred franchises.
And it just seems like that was like the only way to go.
And so we just set that vision. And we, we went on that path.

(29:14):
And we built a business model.
And in 2017, we incorporated a separate company we brought on a couple franchisees
and we set up everything and that was like the vision and and it took a few
years and when we reflected back we're like this just isn't the model that we,

(29:35):
it's not us like it's not it's not me as an entrepreneur it's not really like
the opportunity that we're envisioning for all of the employees you know it's
more franchise opportunity focused.
And it's, it's not to say that like the customer, there's also like two levels
of profit that need to be baked into the pricing.

(29:55):
And so who eats that it's the customer because the franchisor and the franchisee
needs to, needs to get paid.
And so all these things just kept adding up and I was like, it doesn't feel right.
And we talked to some of our franchisees at the time and, and it was really hard.
One of them was, you know, just wasn't really working out great for him
anyways and so he wanted to it timed out really well the other

(30:19):
one was sort of on the fence and and so we
actually had some really open some hard and open conversations
and didn't no one pressured anyone in either direction but we
had to present a good enough opportunity for the franchisee at the time who
actually wasn't opposed to continuing on with the business that he started and
so we came up with a buyout offer i can't remember how much it was 150 grand

(30:44):
or something like that, because there was real business there.
And it actually worked out so well that not only did he get bought out for the
business that he helped build,
he's still with us today and is our most successful business development employee, and he's killing it.
And so sometimes those hard decisions, I

(31:07):
think putting a lot of intention and thought and and analysis into them is important
because you don't want to be caught just making a decision that's going to impact
multiple people just because you feel like it or because emotionally that's
your thing that you want to do.
It needs to be database and it needs to be backed with other information.

(31:31):
It needs to be a win-win for everyone.
But yeah, we've pivoted off franchising since and just focused on growing corporately.
Yeah. So that it's been a, if it just feels better, I don't know.
It's more in tune with who we are as entrepreneurs.
I think that's an important alignment as well, right? Lining up with your values,
but it can be hard to separate the ego out of that equation,

(31:52):
because a part of us all, when we become super unemployable,
we say, I'm not going to work for somebody, but now that I'm not working for
somebody, I have to become super successful.
Otherwise I look like an idiot for not just keeping a job doing that.
And, and the reality is you're not an idiot.
There's a direction and there's a path, but there can be that initial pressure, right?
Especially with all the TikTok videos out there telling you how you can make

(32:15):
$40,000 a month while you sleep.
There's so much societal pressure on, especially new entrepreneurs right now,
that being able to filter out that noise and filter out that ego and make really solid decisions.
It sounds like that was for you and follow your values versus the money,
because obviously a franchise model could have worked and it might've grown
your business much faster, but it might've misaligned with where you wanted to go.

(32:39):
So you decided to take a arguably slower route.
When you guys finally made that decision, did you ask yourself,
have we slowed growth or was that just so far down the line of values that you
just felt better about decision because of everything else that it aligned with for you?
Yeah. So growth is an an interesting one because it's like, what are you growing?

(33:03):
It's literally a core value. It's one of our number one core values is at the
peak of our triangle is growth.
And we define growth as investing in our people, investing in our clients and
investing in our business.
And that's just how we define it. We don't define it as, you know,

(33:24):
1-800-GOT-JUNK slogan is literally the world's largest junk removal company.
And it's like, that's cool for them. I don't care to have the world's largest junk removal company.
If we happen to have the world's largest junk removal company in 40 years, we're going to have,
because I still have another 40 years of entrepreneurship under my belt before,

(33:44):
you know, I probably get pushed out, then so be it. But it's not like the mission. It's not the purpose.
And so when we look at growth, we want we're more focused on like sustainability,
you know, like I've got a nine month old daughter at home, I've got my wife,
she's from Australia, it's tough living in the opposite side of the world from your family.

(34:05):
And so my career and And business, which is really just one of the seven segments
of life that I look at, along with like friends, adventure, family,
spirituality, you know, whatever that means to yourself.
There's, you know, business wealth, which I kind of treat separately.
And so and so there's all these elements to it. And so pouring all of my energy

(34:31):
into scaling like a global franchise system doesn't really intrigue me that much.
On top of that, we love working. I love working with other entrepreneurs.
And so our strategy for growth right now is going to be through acquisitions.
And those entrepreneurs are either going to get paid out for a business that

(34:53):
they built, which is amazing, or they're going to stay on as an equity partner
and stay on as a general manager and build something bigger than what they could build on their own,
which they still get to build the business that they built under our brand.
And also they're building something that is of much larger value to them.
So that kind of excites me more than.

(35:16):
Just trying to like penetrate every market for the sake of penetrating a market,
if that sort of makes sense.
But we still have a big vision. I mean, I want to grow 505 Junk to $20 million
in revenue in the next five years through acquisitions.
And that to me is like, it's not $200 million, but I'm a-okay with building
a $20 million business. I'm super proud of that.

(35:39):
And if it happens to be more, great, but I'm not here for trying to like scrape
all the money in the junk market.
I actually, to be honest with you, it's quite the opposite. I started a junk
removal accelerator in March and I'm doing business coaching with other companies
in this industry to help them fulfill their dreams because I know how hard it is to make it.

(36:02):
And fortunately, we have, you know, quote unquote, made it as far as like having
an operation that, you know, pays people well and they've got a great job and
there's a thousand five-star reviews and no customer and complaints.
And as the CEO, my day-to-day involvement is fairly hands-off at this point.
And I love coaching other entrepreneurs that method, which some people think

(36:26):
I'm crazy, but I'm just like, it's a $50 billion industry in North America.
There's plenty of revenue to go around for everyone.
So yeah, we started that. I'm working with about seven or eight companies right now.
And that's another avenue that we want to scale up as well, is just helping
other entrepreneurs in this space.
I love the story. Are you familiar with the Whole Foods founding story,

(36:49):
how they built up their company?
Not so much the founding story, just the later years. What is it?
Yeah, very similar years. They grew through acquisition. So started with a passion.
John Mackey, I hope I'm pronouncing his last name right. I just listened to the podcast.
Fantastic guy. Actually invited
him onto this podcast. He refused as of right now, but we'll get him.

(37:10):
Well, not so much refused, said maybe later. So we'll take the later.
But his founding story started with a passion.
They grew their company. They started to develop partnerships and then through
acquisition found really great pockets in the market where they thought they
were very strong, sustainable,
natural food markets that had grown to some scale and then acquired them.

(37:33):
And that's actually how Whole Foods grew their business across North America.
America the way you talk though is what
reminds me most of him from the podcast that I've listened to is
this deep sense of of fulfillment that
comes not just from the money right and
his story is really fantastic as you know you know there was an acquisition

(37:54):
by Amazon which from again what I gather there's a bit of regret there he said
he would have kept it private versus ever having gone public and I think from
what I can hear is that's one of his larger regrets is that you do you give
up that sense of control at that point,
right? As you try to grow, where do you find that balance?
Because in order to have power, there is consequence and, and there's a balance to be had there.

(38:18):
Congratulations on becoming a dad, by the way, a nine month old,
I've got a, a 21 month old at home with another one on the way.
So I feel that same sense of pride and shifting in priorities, right?
After the kids are born, how are you, how are you balancing that?
Let's talk about that piece because when you're a lone wolf
you know I remember working well into three o'clock

(38:41):
in the morning getting up again three hours later and starting back
up and you know living off caffeine and and
cereal but life changes when you become a dad
so talk to us about that balance in your journey yeah so
first of all I like my wife is
taking the hard route with parenting what I call and I have
so much respect and appreciation for her like she's you

(39:03):
know making all the food herself and she's
sort of like spending every waking minute
just making her smile and focusing on
building that attachment relationship like she's putting
so much work into it that like that's how I balance it to be honest with you
fortunately she's able to stay at home with Sadie you know full-time and and

(39:27):
just like yeah be there be there with her every day and and I go in and I do my I go do the work,
you know, get into the office around nine, I leave at five.
Get home and just do what I can to sort of be there and support.
And yeah, it's certainly though, like when 5.
PM hits and I've done my work, like my desire to sacrifice spending time with

(39:54):
my daughter to do a bit more work, like doesn't exist anymore.
Whereas in the past when both of us were working and, you know,
Jenna worked at HootSuite. So typically, like she would be home at a reasonable time.
And, and whereas when you run your own business, like there is no such thing
as reasonable time, there's only like, when the work is done,

(40:17):
and the work is never done.
And so in theory, you could work 24 hours a day, if the human mind and body
could accommodate that.
But we can't. And in fact, it's the opposite of efficient to do that.
And so, yeah, I just find like the dip, the biggest difference is priorities.
Priorities and, and I just don't have that desire to not go home anymore.

(40:39):
I do like, Oh, once she goes to bed and you know, if Jenna wants to go to sleep
early around nine, cause Sadie's getting up around, you know,
five 30 or whatever, like sometimes I'll pull out the laptop and do some night
work, but it's not sacrificing anything.
Cause I would just be sitting there anyways, or, you know, on Netflix or scrolling or whatever.
So I'm more than happy to put in a bit more energy into into the business in the evening,

(41:02):
knowing that, like, I'm grateful to be able to spend half an hour in bed with
my daughter every morning and be there for her when I get home and all that kind of stuff.
So yeah, it's, it's been pretty, pretty amazing.
I can honestly say, as everybody tells you, it will change your life in ways
that you could never imagine.

(41:23):
The one thing that I've found and has been a huge reward for my entrepreneurial
journey is that feeling of love that I have, not only for my daughter,
but just for the world in general. You see the world through another set of eyes.
I think it's pretty easy to get pessimistic, especially the last few years.
But doesn't a child, when we watch them look around and

(41:44):
you're like you know what maybe it's going to be okay i don't know
how you feel about that oh they're so pure right you're
not like if you just think like go back
to like all of the years ago you know back in
like i don't know 1500s like you literally just you eat you you eat your meat
you eat your vegetables you sit around a fire you probably dance and you go

(42:07):
to sleep and then you wake up and you probably go and do it all over again then
you introduce all this stuff like mcdonald's and
like vehicles and like transportation and like flying all over the place.
And it's just like all the foods and like how they, you know,
grow crops now with like pesticide, like chemical, it's just like,
there's just nonstop stuff that as adults,

(42:29):
we have to try and like, like avoid and like dash out of the way.
And like, you know, do you get your Starbucks with all this sugar in it?
Or do you just get a black coffee? Or do you not even do coffee at all? You know what I mean?
There's so many decisions to make babies they don't give a crap about any of
that they're just want to make eye contact and smile and if they're crying they're

(42:53):
trying to communicate something and you just do your best to figure that out
like it's it's such a simple like pure.
Like life and connection that yeah it's really hard it's almost like to be honest
playing like hanging out with my daughter just feels like like a constant form
of meditation because she's just like pure bliss. And like, yeah, it's such a.

(43:14):
It's such a treat to be able to just like be with her. I don't like the cry,
like all the, the crying doesn't like, there's no irritation with me for that
stuff. It's just like, oh, something's off.
Like what can we do to help if, if anything at all?
Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting when my daughter was born, it, it sparked me to
develop an app called processed.
Cause I'd started to become aware while my wife was pregnant about ultra processed

(43:38):
ingredients and the fact that they're made from petroleum based products.
And I went, I don't want my fetus to have that.
And then I was like, Oh, well, I don't want my baby to have that.
And then I was like, well, I don't want to have that.
And it became a passion project that we launched for free through the app store and Google play.
And it was my way of trying to create a filter for my child.

(44:00):
And I think it was to try to preserve some of that freshness,
that newness, that, you know, that, that unknowing of all the other bad things
that are going on in the world, right? Very simple decision-making for the child.
But if I could make one decision about her health, I felt like maybe I was providing
her with just that extra leg up.
But it's funny because for a guy who has no time, I just found that extra hour

(44:22):
to do this project to try to make something happen.
I feel like having a child both drained my energy, but also boosted it up in a way.
Did you find that same thing or are you just exhausted like all the other parents?
My wife keeps saying this is going to change first of all that's awesome that
you built that project like i really respect that and and what jenna's approach

(44:43):
to food and nutrition as well is is is has changed mine on it like i used to
eat out three times a day just because,
i don't know in my mind i was like i'll just focus on building the business
and and i'll just buy food instead but she's like really changed my perspective
on the value of nutrition and and it's important to like have like good quality

(45:04):
home-cooked meals and all that kind of stuff and especially with the baby now.
But what you do today sets them up for life.
If you look at health conditions and now this is obviously for another podcast,
we'll, we'll do another one on health in the future.
But if you look at adults, a lot of their health problems can actually be traced
all the way back to the early childhood years and what foods they were given in the gut biome.

(45:27):
And, you know, again, bigger conversation for another time, but it's fascinating
to talk to other dads like yourself who are becoming aware. I mean,
our parents didn't know.
No, they just didn't know. and you can't even judge them they literally
didn't know chicken strips in the oven were a okay every
day and that's fine totally dunkaroos dunk
we have new information yeah dunkaroos like you

(45:50):
know the the little sticks that you poke in that fake cheese
that was right god knows what they're not allowed to call
it cheese anymore though what are they what are they
supposed to call it cheese like substance or something but
they're not actually allowed to label it cheese anymore because there's
not enough milk product in there yeah yeah and it's like that that was fine
back then and no one you know the only people that knew better were the people

(46:13):
that put like incredible amounts of energy into like reading literally books
about it because some of this was even like pre-internet and the only difference
now is we do have access to that information,
and so we have a choice and you know no judgment to anyone that chooses not
to because it does It does cost more money, it does take more time, and it is harder.

(46:34):
It's literally harder to make your own stuff and not buy the easy stuff.
But yeah, it's just a choice that we choose to do, I guess.
It's important to us for all the reasons you just said about that early development
and just the health of the baby.
100%. And I think it goes back to that same vision we were talking about when

(46:55):
we were talking about building a business. So we would bring this full circle.
Building a business is about taking small steps every day and creating that
sustainability through time so you can create a healthy business.
A lot of the ways that you build a business is actually how you raise a child.
You have to feed it the right ingredients.
You have to help it exercise, have it learn, grow, find new opportunities for play and expansion.

(47:18):
And I've often seen it the same way. And in the same way that when I see people
say, oh, I could never sell my business. I could never sell my baby.
I say, it's not a baby anymore.
It's a college grad. You got to fly free bird.
And that same progression I see happening with raising children.
And it's, it's just been fascinating to me too.
And I think it's because I had a child later in life, which I'm glad I did.

(47:41):
I don't think I had the patience to do all this. Cause you're right.
Making your own food. I can see why people buy packaged food for a child.
Cause make it. And I'm in the same lucky boat as you.
I don't pretend to be the guy who does, you know, most as my wife has stepped
in and wants her to have healthy food and cooks all the ingredients.
It's a labor of love. And then the child half the time throws it on the floor

(48:03):
at you or wherever, or it just goes straight through. It's just a deposit right out the other end.
But, but so let's, let's bring that then full circle.
How has being an entrepreneur and leaving
the employed world how has that changed your
perspective about being employed or employing

(48:24):
others where you know you've got a totally different viewpoint now what does
that look like for you the first thing that comes to my mind and i've never
been asked this question before is the amount of respect that i have for people
that but choose to take the employed route.
It's a different route. There's no better way. There's no right or wrong way. It's a route.

(48:50):
And it's the more common route, obviously, because if we had more businesses
than employees, then the economy would collapse.
And so just like a deep sense of gratitude for people that are committed to supporting people.
Any size business, could be a small business, could be a startup,
could be a mid-sized business, and it could be a large publicly traded incorporation.

(49:14):
But especially the small to mid-sized businesses for people that choose to work
with those companies, to be employed by them, they're taking on a risk.
And I just think it's important that the reward matches the risk.
And that's something that I've been trying to focus on more in
the last couple of years as our business has grown and we are starting to

(49:37):
feel a bit more abundance is to never forget not
just what got us here but also like every single day
which what keeps this business ticking and it's the employees
and the team yeah you need the clients for the business
to work but if there's no team there's no
delivery of the service so there's no real like
one's more important than the other in my opinion like a business is absolutely

(50:00):
nothing without the people that are employed by it so yeah i think I think just
like deep gratitude is my perspective compared to when I was an employee and
it was just like whining all the time. Like, what do you mean I have to shovel this pile of dirt?
Like, probably should have just been grateful to have a job, to be honest.
That's fair. I love the sentiment of gratitude because you're right.

(50:22):
You use this phrase that they choose to work with you. And that's true.
Who chooses to come in every day? Who chooses to put your logo on their shirt,
on their chest and walk around and represent the company? And it is a representation of the leadership.
It's a deep-seated relationship that you create.
In my view, a business that has longevity, people have to feel something.

(50:47):
Otherwise, the revolving door will cost you so much money. And again,
you'll be in a rough spot. bought.
So you mentioned the nine to five, which is interesting.
When I talk to a lot of entrepreneurs, they don't mention I start at nine and end at five.
How has becoming an entrepreneur changed your view of freedom or has it at all?

(51:09):
Yeah, it's, it's a luxury of starting a business is being able to write your own clock for sure.
Not everyone can say that, that starts a business. In fact, most can't.
And that's something we teach in our coaching program is like,
most people can't actually write their own hours as an entrepreneur because

(51:29):
the business consumes them.
And you are out of necessity required to get up at six and answer some client
phone calls and be there all day to, you know, be there to support your staff.
And and in the evening like
addressing like any major issues because at the
end of the day as much as you know

(51:52):
we're grateful to have like coordinators and
managers and senior managers and directors in the company now if it's a major
issue it's always getting escalated to the co-founder ceo owner whatever title
you want to use is the person where everything kind of stops there for that final decision.

(52:13):
So from that perspective, like, yeah, you always do have to be switched on.
And I actually love it. Like I love being switched on. I love this business.
I love business in general.
And so I wouldn't have it any other way, but because knowing that I always have to be switched on,
like having some parameters for my like 95% of the time work just between nine

(52:35):
and five, like nine, I'm still showing up getting in.
I can go to the gym before I can hang out with my daughter in
the morning and and still get in a decent time and
five he's still home for dinner so it's just it's just i don't
know who came up with that a long time ago but it works for me and
sometimes you know i don't do that like today i'm you know going golfing with
some friends at 3 30 and and so you know there's the luxury of their clients

(52:59):
but they're friends now but there's the luxury to do that but yeah i don't know
i mean anyone can really do that i guess at the end of of the day,
they would just book half a day off. Sure. Good.
What legacy do you hope to leave behind personally and professionally?
It's a great question. I would like to be... So there's two sides to this.

(53:21):
The business I leave behind, I want
it to be recognized as one of the top places to work in all of Canada.
And that doesn't mean the largest volume of employees in Canada,
But at some point in the next 10 years,
I would like an organization that is highly respected by peers in the business

(53:42):
network in Canada to look at 505 Junk as like a really,
really good place to work as like a hybrid between compensation,
additional benefits, the culture, like the engagement levels,
the happiness, like the actual evidence of promotions and growth in the company.
Of like diversity and making sure that we're giving like equal opportunities

(54:07):
to everybody in what's typically known as like a very male dominated industry in waste management and.
Yeah, I think just a balance of that would be the legacy that I would want to
leave behind with our business and any new business that I start,
I would want that to be the same way.
And then on the other side, where we're sort of coaching and supporting entrepreneurs

(54:29):
in the space, like it would really just, I would just want them to have like immense value.
That's my goal right now is, it's not so much like, doesn't have to be revenue
growth or profit growth,
although those are two very important KPIs that we focus on,
I would just want them to look at like, okay, we're paying this person to like

(54:50):
help us, I want them to actually feel helped.
And therefore, like when they look at the investment that they did,
the value is like undeniable.
And we help them just like the fellow at Expedia cruise ship centers,
you know, helped us for that one day at the coffee shop, we're meeting once
a week, so it's a bit different.
But I would want them to look back and go like, holy smokes,

(55:11):
that was incredibly helpful and like foundational to our business growth.
Yeah. It's a common thread for entrepreneurs to want to pay it forward.
I think the ones who found that personal level of success, that idea of paying it forward, I love it.
It's, I think it's the greatest gift that you can pass along to humanity.
And it was, it is what helps us grow and become a better species overall.

(55:33):
You mentioned starting another business. If you could start any other business, what would it be?
If you have the time. I literally just started. I'm going to go all in on these
two businesses. That's it.
We've bought some rental properties over the... That's the mentorship business.
It is, yeah. It's the coaching...
We might do other industries if we want to bring in managing partners at some
point that sort of, you know, like run a specific industry.

(55:54):
But yeah, this is it. I've tried other stuff like I've we've got a few rental
properties and I used to think like real estate was the bees knees.
But it's sort of distracting, to be honest. And I don't know.
I just I love this space. I love this industry.
Like junk removal gave me something that I didn't have at the time.
And it was like a light to success.

(56:14):
And I had never been successful. And we followed that light and here we are.
And I don't really see a reason why I need to like, spend my time elsewhere
as far as like career stuff.
It's really just to like, build the company that we started and help other people in the industry.
Maybe not in our own backyard here in Vancouver, but help other people in the

(56:36):
industry that, you know, want to learn from us and we can help grow.
Fantastic well Barry it has been fantastic
catching up with you today it's been too long
we are neighbors so we should definitely try to catch up in person at some point
very soon before we end the podcast I've got to ask you our very important question

(56:57):
who else do you know that is super unemployable that you believe should be the
next guest on our show oh that's That's a great question.
I'm going to pass it forward to Brandon Smith from New Vision Projects owns
a construction company as well as a development company.
And I think he had a he also got canned from McDonald's. And he's got a really cool story.

(57:25):
And I think just understanding all this stuff that's going on in real estate.
Right now, it'd be really interesting for people to hear what they're up to.
So I would give him a nudge.
Fantastic. Brandon Smith, Barry Hartman has called you out to be the next guest on the podcast.
We definitely look forward to catching up with you and hearing your story.

(57:46):
Barry, awesome. Such a great time. Thank you so much. I know you have a meeting
you've got to run off to, so I appreciate you giving us a couple extra minutes here.
But yeah, just from the bottom of my heart, your story has been inspiring and
I I think it's going to inspire a lot of other people out there who are running a similar journey.
So thank you. I appreciate it. Thanks so much for having me.
That was Barry Hartman of 505 Junk. And I have to say, that was one of my favorite conversations.

(58:12):
Barry is such a positive force in everything that he does. He comes with such
a great energy to every conversation.
And that's what I remember most about him, actually, from 10 years ago.
And it's amazing to see that nothing has changed.
Barry shared a lot of really great insights. But the one that I gravitated towards
the most is this idea that for the super unemployable, Well,

(58:34):
you get to define your own vision of success.
Success might be money. It might be growth. It might be helping others.
It might be just raising a family or it could be some combination of those and many other things.
But the beautiful thing about being super unemployable is that you are forced
to go on and start thinking something for yourself.

(58:57):
And when you're forced to start something for yourself, you have to ask the
very hard question, what am I in it for?
It can't just be the money. Money is a great outcome.
And it is one that you obviously have to strive towards so that your company
can be profitable and you can have a good life.
But you get to get beyond that. You get to transcend the money and ask really

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difficult questions about what's next.
What is it that you're going to do that's going to make you the happiest?
And for Barry, it is very clear that giving back and being a part of the community
is really important to him. mentorship.
And I love that. I love that so much. So I'll leave this last thought with all

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of you as you ascend from being super unemployable to being your own vision of entrepreneur.
Ask yourself when that money arrives, what is it that comes next?
What is that next piece that you need in your life to be truly happy?
Until next time, thank you for listening.