March 4, 2024 • 43 mins
In this episode, we chat with Peter Phan and Gilbert Kruidenier, two experts in Australia who use animation and comics to create engaging change narratives. They share their projects, tools, and tips on how to leverage these mediums for effective communication and marketing. Join us as we kick off season 3 with a global perspective on change and creativity.
You can find out more about Peter and Gilbert's work here:
- FLIMP Studios - Videos and Visuals for Change Management
- Bad Change (Amazon link)
- Bad Sponsor (Amazon link)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Music.
(00:06):
Welcome to the new season of Supercharged, the change and comms podcast.
In this season, we digitally globetrot to find out more about change and cultures
in a variety of different countries, including the USA, India,
back to the UK, Malaysia, Kazakhstan, and Denmark.
But in this first episode, we're off to Australia to meet with Gilbert Crowderdeer
and Peter Phan. We're super delighted to welcome both Peter and Gilbert onto the pod.
(00:27):
Peter and Gilbert are currently living in Australia. Gilbert is a mega experienced
change and comms pro. And what's super cool about Pete is that he visualises
change and both have worked together for a number of years.
We're going to explore how these things come together. But before that, as always, Pete, hello.
It's cold here in England. It's minus six. It's white outside.
I'm sure you're going to tell me it's warmer in Barcelona. Mildly warmer.
(00:49):
Still morning here. And I'm just really looking forward to seeing how this podcast
goes because we're all so far away from each other.
So good evening to our guests in Australia. So, if we start with Gilbert,
hello, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what do you do?
Hi, yeah, I'm Gilbert, I live in Brisbane. I am a change manager by trade most of the time.
Currently I work for a super retail group on a number of HR projects.
(01:13):
Before that time, I've spent a lot of time in education land for various universities.
I do some consulting in the disability and aged care sector about governance,
human rights, which is another passion project for myself. myself.
And when I'm not doing that, I enjoy working with Peter on books and cards and crazy videos.
So it keeps me entertained most days. My name is Peter. By day,
(01:34):
I'm an engineer specializing in energy efficiency.
So all about reducing the amount of electricity consuming buildings.
And by night, I visualize change using cartoons and animations through my side
hustle, Flimp Studios, which I've been running for about 10 years now.
So working on all sorts of projects relating to change and strategy and whatnot,
not, and been working with Gilbert for a number of years as well,
and just having a lot of fun.
(01:56):
What got you interested in change and visualizing it in that way?
What got me into, I think it was more so a coincidence.
So during my uni days, I had joined a social enterprise and I was part of the marketing team.
So drawing and cartoon was something that I've always been interested in.
And so I sort of pursued that as a side thing during uni.
And what got me into change was that I had illustrated a change process as part
(02:20):
of that student organization. So we went through a rebranding exercise.
And so I drew a whole sort of one-page illustration and animation that explained
why we're going through that rebranding exercise.
And one of the sponsors was actually a change consultant. And he saw what I
did for the organization.
And so I had worked with him through a number of organizations with him.
And I thought, this is a pretty good business model.
(02:41):
So I thought I reached out to various change consultants. And that's actually how I met Gilbert.
Gilbert had come to Melbourne, And what was it, maybe nine years ago, maybe 10.
And, yeah, I just reached out to him, see if he wanted to catch up for coffee.
And that's how our friendship began. I see. Okay. So what was the first project you did together?
Oh, that's a good question. What was our first project? What was our first project?
(03:03):
It wasn't... Salvation Army?
I think it was the video for the Salvation Army that we worked on together,
but that was 2017. Ooh, this is a long time ago.
Yeah, I think it was the Salvation Army. Yeah, could very well be.
That was a good one, though.
That was very helpful. It was about implementing a new national disability insurance
scheme and getting people across what they needed to do and how to prepare. That was a lot of fun.
(03:26):
So what we ended up doing was creating an animation view that sort of talked
them through the changes. So, you know, what's the current state,
you know, illustrating that.
What's the future state, illustrating that. And then, you know,
how we're just going to get there.
Do you find like people, in my experience, they respond so much better when
you can properly visualize something in a way that's, that kind of is engaging.
(03:48):
And I actually, I find even for myself, I have to kind of draw out what's happening
to get my head around it as well. Well, how do you see that reaction in your
audiences when you use those kinds of cartoons and animations?
Well, I've got the very unfortunate situation that I'm the words person in our collaboration.
So every time we make something, people are like, oh, this looks amazing.
(04:10):
Nobody ever talks about the words. So I feel very hard done by.
But the reality is what we do, what we tend to do, our process for as far as
we have one is we script something out, often just in words and crazy ideas.
Is we show each other videos and it has nothing to do with what we're doing.
We're looking for style.
We're looking for a narrative and then we parse it in little pieces and go like,
(04:30):
okay, so how would this work? How would that work?
And what we're doing is visualizing with words and then even descriptions of
what the image should look like.
And then we just freestyle of that because we still want to figure it out.
And we always say to people like, we're not keen on figuring out how our chemistry
actually works because maybe we'll break it, but it just works.
I do the words, Peter does the images, we do a second take, we change some of
(04:52):
the words because sometimes they just don't work with the image that we've created.
Then we finesse the image and that's the end result and that tends to work really
well with the audiences.
I'm looking at one now, it's the words and the animation on there,
I'm screaming at it because it's something I've been dealing with all week as
well and it's one that you did two months ago with Pedro, the project manager,
(05:12):
where change managers and project managers are the same.
And it's like, it's nailed it.
I can't get back into the pod. I'm reading these now.
I'm going through them. I must have missed this whole post that you put on,
Peter, but I'm going to have to share these.
I'm just going to kind of passively, aggressively stick them around the office,
I think, because it's like, it's so great.
(05:32):
That's what people do. Yeah, I think, you know, you hear the words,
you know, a picture paints a thousand, what was it? A picture paints a thousand words, right?
And when you think about, you know, strategy and change and vision and all that
sort of stuff, you'll find that what someone has in them, like if you read the
same text, you know, let's say it's a sentence, you know, the person was walking a dog.
You know, if you think of that, every one of us has a different picture in their
(05:53):
mind, you know, depending on your history, your experience and whatnot.
But if I was to draw that out, you know, everyone will have that sort of same
picture. We know exactly what I'm talking about.
Otherwise, you know, Gilbert will probably think of his dog,
which is a greyhound. And I'll think of my dog, which is a tiny Pomeranian Chihuahua.
Two completely separate dogs, but they both align with that sentence.
Did you know there's a condition called aphantasia where some people can't visualize words?
(06:15):
I have a friend who has it. And if I ask him to visualize a man walking a dog,
he can't do it. And I have no idea what does come up in his head.
Those are the people that you see frowning in your workshops when they're looking
at you. And they go like they have this frowning face at you. And they're not angry.
They're just like completely lost about what you're saying. My wife has this with directions.
I've got a very visual memory. So I can walk her really through everything in
(06:36):
the area. So in terms of your collaboration, I'm guessing some stuff you do
on the side and that's been around the like project manager,
change manager type series that you did.
But how do you get in and work with clients?
Do you go in as a team that you kind of sell that as a package or is it that you've got?
Available and you need to convince people that it's something that's worth doing?
(06:58):
It's often that's where it starts.
And I will answer this question first because it often starts with me.
And that's Peter kept saying that I should be his marketing person because I
got him into so many gigs.
But often when I arrive at a client and I see what their challenges are,
I know what the power of visualization is because we've done so many different things together.
So I show them Peter's work. He only has to maintain his website and keep the
(07:21):
items on there. I just sent a link to them and go like, look,
this is what you're after. I know the person who can turn this around.
And because most organizations want it done in like two or three weeks instead
of the normal six weeks that it generally takes.
I contact Peter and go like, look, can you do this? And sometimes it's a whole
series of things and gets quite extensive.
Sometimes it's just one video, which can have a really great impact already.
(07:44):
And yeah, so I just ended up sending clients this way. or if we needed to work
together, we made a really cool interactive PDF for National Disability Services
at some point and that led to more work. But I'm often no longer involved and that's totally fine.
I just open the door and he can perfectly fine walk by himself.
You are a good marketer. The best marketer. His work is a good marketing material.
(08:05):
Do you get competition sometimes with the internal or corporate design team as well?
Not at all. Generally with internal, what they do is they're quite constrained with their time.
They don't have a lot of resources to be able to do this sort of stuff.
At the same time, they're not experts in sort of change management and the process behind it.
If you give them the instructions, hey, can you create a video that does this,
(08:27):
this, this, they can do it.
But if you were to give them sort of a blank canvas, then it's a bit harder
for them to do something like that.
That's where typically you'll sort of engage an agency to do that.
But again, with agencies as well, they work on all sorts of projects.
It's very rare that you have an agency that specializes just change and strategy.
And so that's where sort of Gilbert and I sort of excel in that space because
we've worked with each other so often that we really know how to sort of get
(08:50):
that through the door when we work with clients. That's the thing with visualization.
If you can think in images and you can think in concepts, you can just see the
relief almost with managers and also with internal comps. People are like,
oh, this person actually knows what they're talking about.
This is not going to take seven briefings and 17 marketing people.
I've got nothing against marketing people, just saying.
But I've sat through sessions and I've worked with one marketing agency.
(09:13):
They charge $60,000 to come up with a concept that I could draw in a morning.
And my drawing skills are well below par. I can tell you that. It was horrendous.
And then I showed them Peter's stuff and I'm like, look, you can have this in
three weeks. It's going to cost you 10 grand.
And we're good. That's a very easy sell. I'm tempted.
I know. What I really love, though, is just, you know, Peter and Gilbert, we're looking through.
(09:36):
It's the simplicity. And I'm not saying that to kind of underplay how good what
you do is, but I think that is how good it is, is because you've got it to a
point where the pictures and the words are in harmony.
We haven't overcomplicated it with flashy backgrounds, super logos.
Very dense layered imagery.
We've got right to the nub of what the problem is between whether that's an
(09:57):
HR manager or project manager or sponsor or an end user.
And it has just boiled it right down, which is a hard skill, by the way, isn't it?
You know we've worked on this for boiling something down to
just get to the absolute point and then make it even simpler
to understand with a picture it's phenomenal guys absolutely i
keep i keep finding ones i haven't seen the bad
(10:18):
sponsors currently my favorite i didn't realize there were so many of those
well i know there's a lot of those but i didn't realize there were so many images
of those but it's super cool guys really it's super cool i'm loving it when
i look at those i always think should i share that with my sponsor the great
thing about those materials materials is they never really,
so sponsors and people who are doing it wrong, they never really attribute it to themselves.
(10:38):
They always laugh about it because they think it's other people,
which is great because you can still drive the message home.
But we often advise it's like, look at this person, look what they're doing,
or, well, maybe this is something that we should avoid in the project.
Or did you notice that John or Jane did that other thing?
And for yourself and for all your listeners, Bad Sponsors available for free.
You can just get it on the interweb, just go to flim
(11:01):
studios and it's on there you can just download it and
use those images to your heart's content because that's generally
what we want to do with our projects the the
sales generally go to a charity anyway the national homeless
collective here in australia but that's only true for bad change the the book
which we sell by amazon but all the other tools we've now made freely available
because that's how we started the the whole thing with the bad change company
(11:24):
we want to improve the profession and the best way to do that we thought is
to offer things for free free.
We also learned that sometimes giving things away for free is really hard. Why?
The absence of a monetary value, people often go like, oh, it's either really,
really poor quality or they feel like they need to do something in return.
You're like, no, it's free. We want you to use it. Yeah, but I don't feel good taking stuff for free.
(11:49):
Just like, no, just use it and do good things. An example of that is our first
book, which is Bad Change.
I think we sold like more than 400, 500 copies of it. You know,
we actually, we sold it. I think it's 800. Is it 800?
I can't remember from the top of my head anymore. You just doubled your sales. We sold them.
But with Bad Sponsor, which is free, we haven't had that many downloads, surprisingly.
(12:12):
So like that's a comparison of, you know, how giving it for free,
people will sort of, because it's free, I think there's no urgency for them to do anything with it.
That's like, I can download it at any point in time, whereas it went to sale
and people are sharing it.
Maybe there's more value to it because they actually bought it not too sure
do you do you get much feedback on that then so
in terms of bad sponsor as a as a freebie i've
(12:33):
looked at that i've gone and i'm seeing use cases where i think oh god i've
seen that i know what that i know what you're saying i've got it except
you've done it a lot you've articulated it far better than
i could have do you get feedback where people come back to
you afterwards and say oh my word that's exactly what i've seen or
what i've done all the time um all the time all the
time just this week i started the new job and
i have a new team and they're all big fans because
(12:56):
that's how linkedin works nowadays when you join a new update they're like
they scope you out so i gave them all a copy of
bad change because of course i want to make friends and they
were just leafing through it like oh this is so familiar this is so
recognizable this is so relatable and that is i think
from the 800 plus books that we've sold now we still get lovely
emails from people and and just text messages going like
still using it still loving it it's so relatable
(13:19):
my team loves it it's just great it never gets all that feedback
how do people use it so because i think that's
the gap in my mind it's easy to spot those people and
to know who they are and who the bad sponsor is and and so on right but then
the the fear factor comes with like actually you know how do i challenge that
person or how do i put that into practice are there people that you've seen
(13:41):
that have given you that feedback they're like you know i've used what you've
said and and yes definitely it's made made a massive impact.
Yeah, absolutely. We have. And the thing is it has 50 examples of how change
doesn't work, but bad change has more than 250 tips on how to make good change work.
And the same with bad sponsor. It has 15 examples of poor sponsor behaviors, but 75 tips.
(14:04):
So they're relating their situation to those tips.
And again, we try to keep them really succinct. And as Chris Chris already said,
like drilling it down to the simple essence because you've got three images
to bring the message across and maybe 15 to 20 seconds of reading,
and then it has to either connect or it doesn't.
So, and, and same is true for executive leadership or any sort of people who
(14:26):
get some feedback that might not be so positive, their, their attention span
is going to be very short.
So you want to punchly deliver it and go like, well, this is the issue.
So yeah, people, people definitely use it or they, they run into a problem,
like a leadership problem and go like, is there something in bad change that I can use?
Because as I like to say, everything that I know about change management isn't bad change.
(14:47):
So those 250 tips, that's it.
That's all I know and you're getting it for $34.95. Sounds like a bargain.
I was speaking with Gilbert a few weeks ago and we were sort of doubting the
name bad sponsor because with bad change you can give that book to somebody
and it's not targeting anybody whereas if you give the bad sponsor book to a
sponsor it's almost saying hey you're a bad sponsor you need this book.
(15:09):
So that's something that we sort of thought about and thought oh maybe
we need to you know rethink if we do another one whether we should call
it bad sponsor or not because it's a a bit hard to give it to a sponsor yeah
i get that actually and i was thinking because it has a similarity in
terms of one of the more famous change management
methodologies where at the beginning of the process you have to assess both
yourself your project manager and your sponsor and kind of
(15:29):
give them that feedback and like but you're doing that at the beginning of the
process soon we don't really know if anyone's particularly good or
not i always find that that part of the process strange and that's
how i get your point it's kind of like if i give you this book i'm not saying
you are i'm just kind of trying to help you on the journey of it so i
think i just thought of just then you could potentially pick a
chapter where they're the opposite of that where they're a good sponsor and
go hey you know you're definitely not this person and hope
(15:52):
they read the rest of the book i find people generally they're
quite open to that self-reflectiveness if you can give them yeah yeah i think
like you say if you can be like hey see these other people aren't they bad you
wouldn't do that would you kind of guilt trim them into it but if you pick something
that's if you pick something that's true then it's not really guilt tripping
and then you you just hope that they go through the rest of the book.
(16:14):
Just say, this chapter reminded me of you, because you don't do this.
What I always say is that the book is there to help, but it's not going to be the remedy.
I mean, if it was that simple, it would be great. Like, you give a book to a
person and then all of a sudden they change their minds.
But it does help sometimes. Sometimes you're just that drop in the bucket where
people are like, oh, now I get it, because it's often explained to them at a
(16:35):
moment of great tension. They're there.
Knees deep in project problems. And then the person comes and tells them how
they're doing it all wrong. That's not going to land.
But when they're a little bit more relaxed and they've got the book on their
desk or they just leave through it and go like, oh yeah, I'm just going to take
that to heart and put it down and never tell anyone what I've just learned.
Because that's what we're trying to accomplish. Like micro learning through
(16:55):
funny cartoons that also have a bit of a punch when it comes to the facts that
you get on the other page.
And it seems to work really well. I mean, we're not any kind of New York Times bestseller,
but that wasn't what we were intending we thought that if we were going
to get 250 books sold it would be great because we were
doing it for charity and then when we had 500 we
were still going and then we had 750 and now we've just
(17:17):
set a target for a thousand and we'll see if we get there i'll be buying it
in the moment you can be sure of that thank you when did it launch january 2020
was it four years ago 21 sorry i always get this wrong it's horrible i was thinking
of the chameleon cards i had the The chameleon cards in the front of my mind,
because that was the other project that we did, which I still love so much.
(17:40):
And they're now also, again, for your listeners, everyone, you can just go to
Flim Studios. They're free. They're available. All the materials are there.
They help to decide people on a number of things in their change management
roles, what they want to do, maybe design a new role, design a PD,
whatever you want to do. There's all sorts of tips on there.
But that is still the project that I love so much, probably because I made them
on my own kitchen table, the first draft. The interesting thing here is,
(18:02):
I guess, is that I'm looking at the stuff that you've got online and currently
in the process of putting an Amazon order through for the book.
But the fact is that the content that you put in there.
It's the same as the experience as I see here, probably, I'm guessing now,
it translates across the world.
So change across what's happening in Australia is essentially the same as what's
happening here in the UK.
And I guess, Gilbert, from your experience, having worked over in the Netherlands
(18:26):
as well, these challenges are not exclusive to a country or a culture.
They are the challenges faced with change. Would you agree? I would definitely agree.
And I've started my change career in the Netherlands, but I worked for an American
organization and I was still very hardcore process improvement by then.
But while I was working there, I did my master's in change and organizational
culture. So got a lot more interest in the people side of things.
(18:49):
And then when I moved to Australia, I all of a sudden realized that Europe wasn't
doing all that bad because when I was living in Europe, like,
oh, these people are so behind the times.
And then I came to Australia like, oh, okay, they were actually quite evolved.
And then I recently spoke to one of my friends in Canada, and he said,
look, the people that I speak to from Europe and the UK and Australia,
yeah, they're ahead of us. I'm like, okay, this is interesting.
(19:12):
So I always thought that Australia was very far behind. I would still say that
Europe is quite leading.
I don't know if that's because there's 27 countries in the size of a postage
stamp, but it's just everyone needing to collaborate across all those different cultures.
Maybe they're a little bit ahead of the curve. But on the other hand,
here in Australia, what I really like about the culture and how they go about
(19:33):
change, they might not be really good at it, but man, do they work hard at it.
They really want it to work.
They will give it a go and another go and just keep going at it until you're
like, maybe you need to stop and just take a moment.
But they're quick to get excited about it and they will give it a red hot go.
And even if it doesn't work, well, we gave it a try and let's see what else works.
You know kind of reassuring that the challenges that we face are the same you
(19:56):
know in the organization's process it's quite easy to become quite interested
and think these are my problems and only exist where i work and in the place
of where i live and even just to kind of spin the globe around it's over there
and again actually i've seen from the work that you know you're and peter's drawing is that,
actually, these are the same. This is okay. We're all all right.
We've all got the same challenges.
(20:17):
Maybe how we go about solving them might be somewhat different,
but actually, generally speaking, it's the same thing.
I think, though, coming from an Asian background, though, I've worked on a few
projects in Asia, and I found that the challenges they face are quite different
because of the cultural backgrounds.
What I found the biggest difference was the fact that in a lot of Asian countries,
(20:38):
there's a bit of hierarchy between the younger younger generations, the older generations.
And that sort of goes through the corporate world as well, where your boss is
your boss and you listen to whatever your boss says.
I guess in Australia, for example, if you don't like the change,
you can sort of dispute it.
You can challenge it. You can just go, no, I'm not doing it.
Whereas in Asia, if your boss tells you to do it, you pretty much have to do
(20:58):
it or they'll just fire you and find someone else that will do it.
So it's not all countries, obviously, but yeah, I think it's a bit more cutthroat.
If you come over to Australia, you'll find that there's still this ongoing debate
about people either being qualified slash certified, having actually done a
master's in, or even a bachelor's in organizational development or organizational change.
(21:19):
And some people just feel like they've absorbed it through 20 years of working
in the job and never actually did any qualifications.
And for some, I would agree that they don't need any kind of training.
They could probably deliver their own training.
And for other people who just really wonder, like, I'm not
sure that you're a a benefit to the profession but i'm
not one to judge but i've done my fair share of
(21:40):
training and i feel a little bit supported by my
master's in change and my work at university but yeah
there's a lot of things that you can learn about change without actually going
to school if you're willing to keep an open mind and learn from others because
there's so much that you can do in community groups in platforms on linkedin
you don't have to only formally go to a school to actually learn and get a piece
(22:00):
of paper that says that you are now qualified to talk about What did you take from your master's?
People are difficult, but very important in the process. That's what I took away from it.
Because it was basically an MBA without the financial component.
So everything was very much focused on the organization. And it was a module for culture.
It was a module for HR and one about personal reflection and development,
(22:22):
which I all really enjoyed.
But it really opened my eyes to all the possibilities.
And this is 2010, 2013, right? So this was well before we thought about psychological
safety. Well, some people were thinking about it, but most people weren't and
were definitely not writing books.
So all that good stuff about people I got just before I moved to Australia.
And then my first job in Australia was with the ACT government in a shared services environment.
(22:45):
If you've ever worked in a shared services environment, it doesn't get much more hostile than that.
So yeah, all my people skills really came to the fore.
And I was like, oh, okay, so now I see all these human dynamics at work.
And that's what keeps me in the job.
It's the best part of it. Did you find it boosted your career?
Did people look at it on your CV and think you knew what you were saying or they kind of ignored it?
(23:08):
In some cases, I think there's the one elephant in the room that always comes
up somehow like ADCAR certification.
So ProSci is a very big international change management training delivery organization,
and they do some good stuff with data.
I always feel like I have to credit them for it because they do a lot of good data work.
ADCAR, everyone can make up their own opinion about that. I once felt like I
(23:30):
needed to get the certification because a client of mine wanted me to deliver
25 workshops for 625 people in total.
I do not recommend anyone ever do that, but I did the training and it was okay.
And yeah, you get the basics and then you just go like, okay,
I know how this framework now fits in my, my total, but it's,
it's like with every other degree, how often does it really come up where people ask you like,
(23:51):
so what sort of grades did you get in school 25 years ago? It just doesn't come up.
Maybe. Yeah. Which is a good thing. I think I remember once I'd interviewed
someone and got them for the job and I got them in And I said,
oh, you know, it's really good that you've done your master's.
And they said, well, all I ever really put on my CV was that I'd studied for
(24:11):
a master's. I never said to you that I achieved it.
I dropped out after a few weeks. Right.
Okay. That person was a marketer, actually. It's a bit of false advertising. Can't trust marketers.
Very well done. Yeah. Very good at mapping. To be fair, he's beaten the bot
there, hasn't he, in terms of getting your CV through those screeners.
(24:34):
You've got the magic words on there, but you never actually said that you did
it. It's quite clever. Yes, I quite like it. Go on, Chris, you were going to say something, sorry.
No, it's why I've moved on in my mind, actually. I was just thinking,
Peter, about what you said about the hierarchy in some of the organisations and the Asian cultures.
It's made me think about the ad card process, and it certainly changes the desire piece, doesn't it?
You don't have to worry about that so much because the desire is if you don't
(24:55):
do it, you don't get your job back. So it kind of changed the burning platform a little.
Yeah, I guess a lot of the strategies wouldn't work in organizations like that.
I'll move you, Gilbert, as well, in terms of some of the methodologies.
They are really useful as an approach to start something.
But you're right, the further you go down into following it rigidly,
(25:16):
you miss out on so many other things that from 20-odd years of doing it,
I would not get from just following any of the methodologies solely.
You have to kind of draw upon your experiences of you
know working in different environments delivering different types of
change and then you know reflecting back on the different scars
that you've got from doing those it's it's it's
yeah you're right i completely agree it's not one thing you need it's it's it's
(25:38):
lots of different experiences doing different things and i suppose that's where
your partnership works so well in that you can draw upon those and things can
help you really express them through the visualizations it's really good stuff
what's next for you guys I said,
you've done bad sponsor, you've done bad change. What's next?
We've got a very ambitious project, which we, do we call it bad change camp?
(26:01):
Peter, I always forget. I think it's bad change camp. Yeah. Bad change camp. So,
In recent years, I've developed multiple learning courses for the organizations
that I've worked in. I also teach at university.
It's a completely online course. So I really enjoy the interaction with the students.
Just keeps my finger on the pulse of what people are doing with change management in practice.
(26:22):
So the course that I teach is change tools, but it's sort of condensed form
of what Peter and I want to do.
We want to deliver maybe 20 to 25 micro units of learning about very practical things.
Things but we need to build it we need to build all the animation
it's going to be a project that will probably take us through to 2024 and
there's always weird distractions that come up and we're.
(26:43):
Like oh yeah we should definitely do something about that and then we're off
and we get into something but yeah that's the
next big thing and also the only thing that we really feel like
we have left of one of the big challenges to still
do because we wrote the book we made the cards now training seems
to be a natural progression yeah training is a big thing
as well because if you look around out there in the market again
(27:04):
there's not much that's based based on experience it
seems to be again methodology driven and not
scenario based and what i'm liking about the stuff i've read from
you guys is that you're talking about the real life scenarios that has you
know changed practitioners we all face and you're bringing it
to life and each of the i'm just looking through bad
sponsors still it's on my screen there and you have your cartoon and
(27:26):
then you have some context in terms of the tips to overcome that and
that doesn't exist no not that i've seen not certainly certainly not as
well as you guys have nailed it so i've probably alienated
every other guest we get on who does this stuff now but you're the best i
think that's the that's the angle that
we're going from we're trying to get that sort of make it very practical make
it lighthearted and fun but most importantly something that people will be willing
(27:49):
to pick up and use or read you know the book for example the bad change book
the goal of that is really for it to be not something that you sort of sit through
and read the whole thing it's more so you carry around with you and when you
sort of need help you can sort of easily flick to the relevant page and just
look through through the tips quickly, and then you can just put it away.
It's not something that, you know, you will sort of read from the start to end
and then just store on your bookshelf.
Ideally, it's something you'd be proud to share.
(28:10):
Proud to carry around and just have fun using it yeah it's
accessible though that's what i like about it though so when i'm thinking back to
when i was like a young boy and the books i would read i was never
keen on reading hugely but if you could pick up a
garfield book or fred bassett book if you know what those are i
don't know but you know they're very similar in style you
can pick up the humor and engage with that story in in
three or four boxes of drawings and and then
(28:33):
it kind of encourages you to read more and you build up your confidence
in doing something that is what what this does it did exactly
that i'm so so that's exactly the conversation that
peter and i had about this so i had a question for peter she
was around using like i don't know
if you've come across things like powtoon or canva or some of
the more like assistive tools for change people that
(28:54):
want to do the kind of visualization and animation what's the kind of value
add in in terms of paying for an animator to do this kind of stuff then then
change managers like having a go themselves well there's nothing wrong with
having a go at yourselves you know we've i've seen people people use Paltoons
and Canva and all sorts of programs to visualize change.
I think what you're missing from that is the system or process that I've sort
(29:18):
of learned through going through so many projects. Today, I've done over 200 projects.
And I'd say that probably at least 60% of them sort of follow through the same formula.
And it's that formula that sort of gets you through, and I'm happy to share
the formula. It's essentially your current state.
What are the trying to, what are the challenges you're going through today?
You know, your future state, what are you trying to achieve?
(29:39):
What are the benefits? You know, what's in it for the customers?
What's in it for the stakeholders?
And then it's the strategy in the middle and how you're going to get there.
As long as you sort of have all three elements inside the animation or the illustration,
then you've got a pretty nice picture.
And then the way, and I guess what Powtoons and all the other programs,
they probably won't be able to do is connect all those pretty smoothly, right?
(30:01):
Unless you have someone who's already got a graphic design background,
then yes, they can probably do it.
But it's very rare that you'll find an organization or person who's got all
those skills together to wrap it up into one package.
And that's sort of where I step in. At work, we're in exactly this conversation
right now on Thursday and Wednesday.
We were going through this exact conversation with Powtoon and Canva and Storyblocks.
(30:26):
And one of my colleagues, she's very gifted because she's been doing this for
the past 10 years, but we're all change managers.
We don't, our time is very, very pricey to just go and sit and figure things out.
This today, I just spent two hours putting a very quick seven slide video for 40 seconds together.
It took me two and a half hours. And I consider myself to be pretty fast because
I've learned a lot from Peter.
(30:47):
But then you look at the quality, you go like, well, it's passable, I think.
But I've had multiple experiences where I've drawn up something,
I give it to Peter, and then I get it back and I'm like, yeah,
that's exactly what I wanted, but now it looks good.
And that's, to me, the power of a graphics designer. And everyone who's worked
with a graphics designer and came away from it thinking like,
oh, that wasn't very good, you've hired the wrong person.
Because if you've got a good one, you'll know the difference.
(31:09):
And if, I mean, if you want to be a graphics designer, maybe you're inclined
that way, go and do it. I think it's a really good skill to have as a graphics or as a change manager.
But it's much easier to just pay them. The money is definitely worth it.
I know exactly what you mean.
When you spend hours on something and you're like, I've perfected it,
I've got it all down, and then you give it to a graphic designer,
he knows what they're doing. And they're like, yeah.
(31:31):
Let me redesign that for you. Yeah, but don't underestimate that.
Don't underestimate it. Because like with Peter, the reason why you can turn
things around really quickly when you give it to them is because I understand his process.
And when I work with other graphics designers, so it's definitely worth going
through it. You go like, oh, okay, so now I know about bleed.
I know about contrasting colors.
I know about things that work, fonts that don't work, not too busy on the page.
(31:52):
So if you can do all that preemptive stuff, you can have a much better conversation
with the graphics design and they go like, oh, okay, this person actually knows
what they're talking about.
And it also helps you to keep them focused because some graphics designer,
Peter excluded, they can go off the reservation.
You go like, I asked you to draw me a cartoon with a fridge and a couple of magnets.
And you came over there with a bicycle and a grocery bag. And you're like,
(32:15):
I don't know how you got there. So don't let them get too creative sometimes.
I am completely bought into using design well.
Well and people have these horror memories of me coming back
now where I'd always say that it doesn't really one of
the most important things to get across is something has to look good and
style is massively important and people remember it because
I've banged on this drum so hard for so long but I
(32:37):
always use an example of saying you know the old days of saying you know you
can't judge a book by its cover for me have gone because if your comms and your
change material do not look good no one picks up the book in the first place
the cover actually has to be engaging and it has to look good and it has to
tell the story and then people will buy into the rest you're going to say.
If it's not interesting, people aren't going to listen.
Peter said it, you know, a picture paints a thousand words.
(33:00):
Style, design, change are hand in glove for me.
They come together. You've touched on that perfectly because,
and that's where comics and cartoons stand out.
You know, graphic design, I think it's almost, with my generation at least,
it's sort of expected that anything you present, anything you market has to look good.
You wouldn't go out to market if it doesn't look good because you're just wasting your money
no one's going to click on it comics and cartoons sort
(33:23):
of sort of stand out a little bit because they're not your usual comms
like a pdf for example you know professional looking pdf well
designed by a graphic designer will still stand out but if you
just see a comic there chances are you just go what's this comic and you'll
sort of click through it because we don't see a lot of comics nowadays i think
you're right it's quite subversive to use stuff that's not corporate to get
people's attention and get them to engage with it and i actually i love those
(33:46):
moments when When you give people stuff like that, they're like,
this isn't very professional.
I'm like, no, but you've read it. Yeah. And you learn something and you liked
it because you showed it to your colleague.
And that is the reality nowadays. I see this all the time. I work in a retail
organization where everything is visuals and that's all they care about.
Like they shoot videos off the cuff and in a store and you're like,
(34:08):
that's what we're competing against.
So we can spend 200 or 400 hours on creating the most beautiful collateral.
Role, that other person was just there in the show, in the store shooting a
60 second video. It's already out there. So yeah.
It's actually a challenge I have with sponsors now is when really,
I think the thing that is, like you say, video is such a powerful tool.
(34:28):
And then I'll go to a sponsor and say, really want you to do a video blog or
just do something on camera.
And typically there there's, I don't know what it is about sponsors or execs
or people leading this kind of stuff that no, no, no, no, no,
no. I want you to write a press release for me.
Oh it's so like not engaging but it's hard right to force people to be on camera
(34:49):
is difficult maybe animation helps with that so you can create a mascot you
can create a caricature and then they can just do a voiceover yeah and that's
a lot easier i like those yeah i like those you you.
Imagine imagine there'll be some some sponsors out there going you're not turning me into a cartoon,
you have to have a lot of face in your designer don't you
a lot of face or you just create a new character altogether right
(35:12):
it could be like a dinosaur it could be a blob it could
be anything really and you just turn that as a mascot of your
project or it could be the sponsor that you really wanted
but never had the conversation that i really like to
have with sponsors around that it's like you know what your avatar you can completely
control it won't have a coughing or sneezing fit it won't have a bad day it
will always look super schmick you will always wear your suit or your attire
(35:36):
whatever you dress in that day you can just always look good you can and be
on 24-7. We can control the pitch of your voice.
We can control everything about your brand. And some people love that because
their appeal and appearance is everything to them. And it's because of their role.
But I really enjoyed the stories that Peter always shared with me about when
he does video training with executives, how they're supposed to sit,
(35:56):
how they're supposed to hold their head and not fidget.
And they turn into small children. It's a beautiful story.
Do you do a lot of video, Peter? Yeah, I do.
Not a lot, but it's part of it. Sometimes what I do is,
as part of the change process, is you know sometimes you have
to get the sponsor on the camera and so when i do get
them you know it's we've got the full team there filming everything and
then sometimes for people who are a bit more nervous and don't
(36:19):
have a lot of time we might just record their voiceover and then we
just as again you know sync it to an animation video so again you
know just trying to get the sponsor out as much as possible but it depends on
their speaking level and how comfortable they are in front of the camera not
everyone's made to be in front of the camera no sure i heard you say about sitting
actually one of my top tips i've always given to anybody who's which works with
me is that we never film someone sitting down because they never maintain their height.
(36:43):
They slip, they smooth, and it just doesn't land well. But if you height,
you can't shrink and you can't grow.
Generally, your camera and your height angle is always pretty much spot on.
Well, here's a trick. You can make them sit on the edge of the chair.
If you make them sit on the edge of the chair, it's very hard for them to slouch.
Oh, okay. Look at that. Tips coming out like these.
There we go. Don't let them lean back. If they lean back, they'll move around.
(37:04):
But if you make them sit on the edge, no arm rests, generally they'll sit up
straight and they can only sort of lean forward a little bit or back,
but it's very hard for them. That is a great tip.
That is a great tip. I'm taking that one for myself.
And stools are really good. If you get them on the stools, it's not comfortable,
but they're generally in a good position because their leg sort of sits on the
bottom part of the stool.
So, they're relatively stationary. Not spinning ones. Not spinning ones, no.
(37:29):
So, it's probably an opportunity to wrap up and I guess it'd be great actually
on the subject of tips your tips for thinking about using animation and how
to use it if you were to give
maybe a top tip for both of those what would they be you know
when and people how that'd be quite i can do
a little bit of both so when as soon as possible
and don't be embarrassed to draw out what you think will help because good graphics
(37:53):
designers and visualizers can work with that and it's so helpful for them to
know what you want in your head also helps with their pricing gives them a really
good idea of what you're looking for it helps you think around like what sort
of format do Do I want to do? I want a video.
Do I want to still do? I want anything that you want.
Just draw it out because I mean, we can all draw a bit of a stick figure.
(38:14):
And sometimes people have like super hidden talents that they didn't even know that they had.
So I did a drawing course of two days just to learn about the structures of how to do drawings.
And that's money well spent. So don't feel embarrassed that you can't draw or whatever.
Draw it down. Start early. Write out the script.
Get a graphics designer involved and you'll knock it out of the park.
(38:35):
From me, there's sort of two tips.
Number one is if you're trying to do animation and trying to draw and everything,
remember that you're trying to draw to communicate and not to impress.
So, you know, if you're drawing, it doesn't have to be like an artwork or anything.
The goal is to really communicate. So it can be stick figures,
whatever it is, people will still look at it, people will still be drawn to
it. As long as, you know, just putting a little bit of effort, you'll be fine.
(38:56):
Number two is if you're going to draw about your change or your strategy or
or whatever, make sure that what you're drawing is what the sponsor's after.
Because sometimes if you have a bit, if it's a bit too detached from the sponsor,
they won't be able to own it. They won't want to own it.
And then you won't get a lot of traction and support, you know, launching the project.
So make sure that you get that team involved as well as internal marketing team
(39:18):
and the branding team, because sometimes they might sort of step on your toes
a little bit and say it's not on brand, but cartoons are typically not on brand anyway.
So if you just convince them that, look, this is internal work,
this is, you know, cartoons, it's a different style, you won't have to go through
the whole branding process.
Usually. There's a great tip. Usually.
I've found actually more and more that internal brand has kind of become different
(39:39):
and less less strict as opposed to the external brand.
The internal, you can have a bit more flexibility and there's a wider palette
of things you can do. So, correct.
That really helps if you work with the internal comms and the marketing people
to just explain to them that you understand about the style guide and you want
to respect it, but you also want to sell a good story.
They're generally willing to work with you. But if you start off on a pirate
(40:02):
course and just go like, I'm going to do whatever I want and then go rogue off
the reservation, they're going to be like, no, no, no, no, no.
I've had really good experiences with it. Yeah, it's hard to come back from
once you've gone there, isn't it?
So pete any closing thoughts just so i've really enjoyed
this episode and i'm hoping it'll be something we can
put together nicely no i've really enjoyed that when you
guys have done your next project we've got to get you back to come and talk
about it because that sounds super interesting that would be cool to my point
(40:24):
earlier it seems the challenges we face no matter where they're on the on the
planet all seem pretty similar how we deal with might be slightly different
but the work you guys are doing sounds like it's gonna land well over here and
then you you're everywhere.
We should close though with our usual completely mundane question.
We always ask every guest what their favourite biscuit is.
(40:47):
Maybe, I don't know, maybe this doesn't work outside of the UK,
but we find it's a way of just getting a strange insight into someone.
So who wants to go first? I am not a big biscuit person. I don't really eat biscuits either.
This is showing a lot about the British again.
When was the last time I ate a biscuit? I can't even remember the last time I ate a biscuit.
(41:10):
Maybe a Tim Tams, probably whatever my girlfriend gave me. So I'm going to have
to look up what that is now. What's a Tim Tam?
Oh my Lord, you don't know what a Tim Tam is? Seriously, I think so. No.
Okay, this is a lack in your education. That link needs to be included with the Flim Studios thing.
It's like not knowing what Vegemite is. Surely you know what Vegemite is,
right? Yeah, I've heard of that.
Only because of the song. If you know Vegemite, you should know Tim Tams.
(41:33):
Yeah, Tim Tams are a cultural staple.
You've got like 12 different sorts. They're not actually all that good,
but everybody knows them. and there's even a thing called the Tim Tam Slam,
which you can look up as well.
It's nothing not suited for the workplace. It's just something you do with a
biscuit and double dip and stuff. Well, what is it? You get the biscuit and
you slam it on your head. That's it.
(41:53):
Australian ways of having fun in the office. Yeah.
I mean, you're not excited to watch it on Friday. That's pretty cool,
right? This is telling me a lot about Australian culture now. I know.
I'm not sure I can top the Tim Tam. Don't forget to Google drop bears as well.
Drop bears are very important. comments i know i know about drop bears yeah
oh you do know that one all right damn i'm
(42:15):
afraid to say i don't i feel like i'm missing out i'm gonna have to
go seriously i'm worried if i start googling tim tam and tim tam slams i'm no
no no you won't no it's gonna be totally the drop bears is if if you go for
a walk in the woods especially in australia you need to watch out for the bears
that drop on you and do things yeah that's what they do ferocious yeah no one
(42:35):
knows what they do every day,
I love it I love it we've taken Chris into a
strange dimension here thank you guys
so much for doing this and thanks for spending the time as well because I know
we've run over quite a lot from what we said we would do and yeah I really appreciate
you guys doing this in the evening I've just really enjoyed getting into it
(42:56):
I think I've learned so much from that episode so thank you very much it was
great being here yeah brilliant thank you so much thank you very much it was
fun speaking to you both and look forward to catching up.
Music.
Music.
(00:06):
Welcome to the new season of Supercharged, the change and comms podcast.
In this season, we digitally globetrot to find out more about change and cultures
in a variety of different countries, including the USA, India,
back to the UK, Malaysia, Kazakhstan, and Denmark.
But in this first episode, we're off to Australia to meet with Gilbert Crowderdeer
and Peter Phan. We're super delighted to welcome both Peter and Gilbert onto the pod.
(00:27):
Peter and Gilbert are currently living in Australia. Gilbert is a mega experienced
change and comms pro. And what's super cool about Pete is that he visualises
change and both have worked together for a number of years.
We're going to explore how these things come together. But before that, as always, Pete, hello.
It's cold here in England. It's minus six. It's white outside.
I'm sure you're going to tell me it's warmer in Barcelona. Mildly warmer.
(00:49):
Still morning here. And I'm just really looking forward to seeing how this podcast
goes because we're all so far away from each other.
So good evening to our guests in Australia. So, if we start with Gilbert,
hello, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what do you do?
Hi, yeah, I'm Gilbert, I live in Brisbane. I am a change manager by trade most of the time.
Currently I work for a super retail group on a number of HR projects.
(01:13):
Before that time, I've spent a lot of time in education land for various universities.
I do some consulting in the disability and aged care sector about governance,
human rights, which is another passion project for myself. myself.
And when I'm not doing that, I enjoy working with Peter on books and cards and crazy videos.
So it keeps me entertained most days. My name is Peter. By day,
(01:34):
I'm an engineer specializing in energy efficiency.
So all about reducing the amount of electricity consuming buildings.
And by night, I visualize change using cartoons and animations through my side
hustle, Flimp Studios, which I've been running for about 10 years now.
So working on all sorts of projects relating to change and strategy and whatnot,
not, and been working with Gilbert for a number of years as well,
and just having a lot of fun.
(01:56):
What got you interested in change and visualizing it in that way?
What got me into, I think it was more so a coincidence.
So during my uni days, I had joined a social enterprise and I was part of the marketing team.
So drawing and cartoon was something that I've always been interested in.
And so I sort of pursued that as a side thing during uni.
And what got me into change was that I had illustrated a change process as part
(02:20):
of that student organization. So we went through a rebranding exercise.
And so I drew a whole sort of one-page illustration and animation that explained
why we're going through that rebranding exercise.
And one of the sponsors was actually a change consultant. And he saw what I
did for the organization.
And so I had worked with him through a number of organizations with him.
And I thought, this is a pretty good business model.
(02:41):
So I thought I reached out to various change consultants. And that's actually how I met Gilbert.
Gilbert had come to Melbourne, And what was it, maybe nine years ago, maybe 10.
And, yeah, I just reached out to him, see if he wanted to catch up for coffee.
And that's how our friendship began. I see. Okay. So what was the first project you did together?
Oh, that's a good question. What was our first project? What was our first project?
(03:03):
It wasn't... Salvation Army?
I think it was the video for the Salvation Army that we worked on together,
but that was 2017. Ooh, this is a long time ago.
Yeah, I think it was the Salvation Army. Yeah, could very well be.
That was a good one, though.
That was very helpful. It was about implementing a new national disability insurance
scheme and getting people across what they needed to do and how to prepare. That was a lot of fun.
(03:26):
So what we ended up doing was creating an animation view that sort of talked
them through the changes. So, you know, what's the current state,
you know, illustrating that.
What's the future state, illustrating that. And then, you know,
how we're just going to get there.
Do you find like people, in my experience, they respond so much better when
you can properly visualize something in a way that's, that kind of is engaging.
(03:48):
And I actually, I find even for myself, I have to kind of draw out what's happening
to get my head around it as well. Well, how do you see that reaction in your
audiences when you use those kinds of cartoons and animations?
Well, I've got the very unfortunate situation that I'm the words person in our collaboration.
So every time we make something, people are like, oh, this looks amazing.
(04:10):
Nobody ever talks about the words. So I feel very hard done by.
But the reality is what we do, what we tend to do, our process for as far as
we have one is we script something out, often just in words and crazy ideas.
Is we show each other videos and it has nothing to do with what we're doing.
We're looking for style.
We're looking for a narrative and then we parse it in little pieces and go like,
(04:30):
okay, so how would this work? How would that work?
And what we're doing is visualizing with words and then even descriptions of
what the image should look like.
And then we just freestyle of that because we still want to figure it out.
And we always say to people like, we're not keen on figuring out how our chemistry
actually works because maybe we'll break it, but it just works.
I do the words, Peter does the images, we do a second take, we change some of
(04:52):
the words because sometimes they just don't work with the image that we've created.
Then we finesse the image and that's the end result and that tends to work really
well with the audiences.
I'm looking at one now, it's the words and the animation on there,
I'm screaming at it because it's something I've been dealing with all week as
well and it's one that you did two months ago with Pedro, the project manager,
(05:12):
where change managers and project managers are the same.
And it's like, it's nailed it.
I can't get back into the pod. I'm reading these now.
I'm going through them. I must have missed this whole post that you put on,
Peter, but I'm going to have to share these.
I'm just going to kind of passively, aggressively stick them around the office,
I think, because it's like, it's so great.
(05:32):
That's what people do. Yeah, I think, you know, you hear the words,
you know, a picture paints a thousand, what was it? A picture paints a thousand words, right?
And when you think about, you know, strategy and change and vision and all that
sort of stuff, you'll find that what someone has in them, like if you read the
same text, you know, let's say it's a sentence, you know, the person was walking a dog.
You know, if you think of that, every one of us has a different picture in their
(05:53):
mind, you know, depending on your history, your experience and whatnot.
But if I was to draw that out, you know, everyone will have that sort of same
picture. We know exactly what I'm talking about.
Otherwise, you know, Gilbert will probably think of his dog,
which is a greyhound. And I'll think of my dog, which is a tiny Pomeranian Chihuahua.
Two completely separate dogs, but they both align with that sentence.
Did you know there's a condition called aphantasia where some people can't visualize words?
(06:15):
I have a friend who has it. And if I ask him to visualize a man walking a dog,
he can't do it. And I have no idea what does come up in his head.
Those are the people that you see frowning in your workshops when they're looking
at you. And they go like they have this frowning face at you. And they're not angry.
They're just like completely lost about what you're saying. My wife has this with directions.
I've got a very visual memory. So I can walk her really through everything in
(06:36):
the area. So in terms of your collaboration, I'm guessing some stuff you do
on the side and that's been around the like project manager,
change manager type series that you did.
But how do you get in and work with clients?
Do you go in as a team that you kind of sell that as a package or is it that you've got?
Available and you need to convince people that it's something that's worth doing?
(06:58):
It's often that's where it starts.
And I will answer this question first because it often starts with me.
And that's Peter kept saying that I should be his marketing person because I
got him into so many gigs.
But often when I arrive at a client and I see what their challenges are,
I know what the power of visualization is because we've done so many different things together.
So I show them Peter's work. He only has to maintain his website and keep the
(07:21):
items on there. I just sent a link to them and go like, look,
this is what you're after. I know the person who can turn this around.
And because most organizations want it done in like two or three weeks instead
of the normal six weeks that it generally takes.
I contact Peter and go like, look, can you do this? And sometimes it's a whole
series of things and gets quite extensive.
Sometimes it's just one video, which can have a really great impact already.
(07:44):
And yeah, so I just ended up sending clients this way. or if we needed to work
together, we made a really cool interactive PDF for National Disability Services
at some point and that led to more work. But I'm often no longer involved and that's totally fine.
I just open the door and he can perfectly fine walk by himself.
You are a good marketer. The best marketer. His work is a good marketing material.
(08:05):
Do you get competition sometimes with the internal or corporate design team as well?
Not at all. Generally with internal, what they do is they're quite constrained with their time.
They don't have a lot of resources to be able to do this sort of stuff.
At the same time, they're not experts in sort of change management and the process behind it.
If you give them the instructions, hey, can you create a video that does this,
(08:27):
this, this, they can do it.
But if you were to give them sort of a blank canvas, then it's a bit harder
for them to do something like that.
That's where typically you'll sort of engage an agency to do that.
But again, with agencies as well, they work on all sorts of projects.
It's very rare that you have an agency that specializes just change and strategy.
And so that's where sort of Gilbert and I sort of excel in that space because
we've worked with each other so often that we really know how to sort of get
(08:50):
that through the door when we work with clients. That's the thing with visualization.
If you can think in images and you can think in concepts, you can just see the
relief almost with managers and also with internal comps. People are like,
oh, this person actually knows what they're talking about.
This is not going to take seven briefings and 17 marketing people.
I've got nothing against marketing people, just saying.
But I've sat through sessions and I've worked with one marketing agency.
(09:13):
They charge $60,000 to come up with a concept that I could draw in a morning.
And my drawing skills are well below par. I can tell you that. It was horrendous.
And then I showed them Peter's stuff and I'm like, look, you can have this in
three weeks. It's going to cost you 10 grand.
And we're good. That's a very easy sell. I'm tempted.
I know. What I really love, though, is just, you know, Peter and Gilbert, we're looking through.
(09:36):
It's the simplicity. And I'm not saying that to kind of underplay how good what
you do is, but I think that is how good it is, is because you've got it to a
point where the pictures and the words are in harmony.
We haven't overcomplicated it with flashy backgrounds, super logos.
Very dense layered imagery.
We've got right to the nub of what the problem is between whether that's an
(09:57):
HR manager or project manager or sponsor or an end user.
And it has just boiled it right down, which is a hard skill, by the way, isn't it?
You know we've worked on this for boiling something down to
just get to the absolute point and then make it even simpler
to understand with a picture it's phenomenal guys absolutely i
keep i keep finding ones i haven't seen the bad
(10:18):
sponsors currently my favorite i didn't realize there were so many of those
well i know there's a lot of those but i didn't realize there were so many images
of those but it's super cool guys really it's super cool i'm loving it when
i look at those i always think should i share that with my sponsor the great
thing about those materials materials is they never really,
so sponsors and people who are doing it wrong, they never really attribute it to themselves.
(10:38):
They always laugh about it because they think it's other people,
which is great because you can still drive the message home.
But we often advise it's like, look at this person, look what they're doing,
or, well, maybe this is something that we should avoid in the project.
Or did you notice that John or Jane did that other thing?
And for yourself and for all your listeners, Bad Sponsors available for free.
You can just get it on the interweb, just go to flim
(11:01):
studios and it's on there you can just download it and
use those images to your heart's content because that's generally
what we want to do with our projects the the
sales generally go to a charity anyway the national homeless
collective here in australia but that's only true for bad change the the book
which we sell by amazon but all the other tools we've now made freely available
because that's how we started the the whole thing with the bad change company
(11:24):
we want to improve the profession and the best way to do that we thought is
to offer things for free free.
We also learned that sometimes giving things away for free is really hard. Why?
The absence of a monetary value, people often go like, oh, it's either really,
really poor quality or they feel like they need to do something in return.
You're like, no, it's free. We want you to use it. Yeah, but I don't feel good taking stuff for free.
(11:49):
Just like, no, just use it and do good things. An example of that is our first
book, which is Bad Change.
I think we sold like more than 400, 500 copies of it. You know,
we actually, we sold it. I think it's 800. Is it 800?
I can't remember from the top of my head anymore. You just doubled your sales. We sold them.
But with Bad Sponsor, which is free, we haven't had that many downloads, surprisingly.
(12:12):
So like that's a comparison of, you know, how giving it for free,
people will sort of, because it's free, I think there's no urgency for them to do anything with it.
That's like, I can download it at any point in time, whereas it went to sale
and people are sharing it.
Maybe there's more value to it because they actually bought it not too sure
do you do you get much feedback on that then so
in terms of bad sponsor as a as a freebie i've
(12:33):
looked at that i've gone and i'm seeing use cases where i think oh god i've
seen that i know what that i know what you're saying i've got it except
you've done it a lot you've articulated it far better than
i could have do you get feedback where people come back to
you afterwards and say oh my word that's exactly what i've seen or
what i've done all the time um all the time all the
time just this week i started the new job and
i have a new team and they're all big fans because
(12:56):
that's how linkedin works nowadays when you join a new update they're like
they scope you out so i gave them all a copy of
bad change because of course i want to make friends and they
were just leafing through it like oh this is so familiar this is so
recognizable this is so relatable and that is i think
from the 800 plus books that we've sold now we still get lovely
emails from people and and just text messages going like
still using it still loving it it's so relatable
(13:19):
my team loves it it's just great it never gets all that feedback
how do people use it so because i think that's
the gap in my mind it's easy to spot those people and
to know who they are and who the bad sponsor is and and so on right but then
the the fear factor comes with like actually you know how do i challenge that
person or how do i put that into practice are there people that you've seen
(13:41):
that have given you that feedback they're like you know i've used what you've
said and and yes definitely it's made made a massive impact.
Yeah, absolutely. We have. And the thing is it has 50 examples of how change
doesn't work, but bad change has more than 250 tips on how to make good change work.
And the same with bad sponsor. It has 15 examples of poor sponsor behaviors, but 75 tips.
(14:04):
So they're relating their situation to those tips.
And again, we try to keep them really succinct. And as Chris Chris already said,
like drilling it down to the simple essence because you've got three images
to bring the message across and maybe 15 to 20 seconds of reading,
and then it has to either connect or it doesn't.
So, and, and same is true for executive leadership or any sort of people who
(14:26):
get some feedback that might not be so positive, their, their attention span
is going to be very short.
So you want to punchly deliver it and go like, well, this is the issue.
So yeah, people, people definitely use it or they, they run into a problem,
like a leadership problem and go like, is there something in bad change that I can use?
Because as I like to say, everything that I know about change management isn't bad change.
(14:47):
So those 250 tips, that's it.
That's all I know and you're getting it for $34.95. Sounds like a bargain.
I was speaking with Gilbert a few weeks ago and we were sort of doubting the
name bad sponsor because with bad change you can give that book to somebody
and it's not targeting anybody whereas if you give the bad sponsor book to a
sponsor it's almost saying hey you're a bad sponsor you need this book.
(15:09):
So that's something that we sort of thought about and thought oh maybe
we need to you know rethink if we do another one whether we should call
it bad sponsor or not because it's a a bit hard to give it to a sponsor yeah
i get that actually and i was thinking because it has a similarity in
terms of one of the more famous change management
methodologies where at the beginning of the process you have to assess both
yourself your project manager and your sponsor and kind of
(15:29):
give them that feedback and like but you're doing that at the beginning of the
process soon we don't really know if anyone's particularly good or
not i always find that that part of the process strange and that's
how i get your point it's kind of like if i give you this book i'm not saying
you are i'm just kind of trying to help you on the journey of it so i
think i just thought of just then you could potentially pick a
chapter where they're the opposite of that where they're a good sponsor and
go hey you know you're definitely not this person and hope
(15:52):
they read the rest of the book i find people generally they're
quite open to that self-reflectiveness if you can give them yeah yeah i think
like you say if you can be like hey see these other people aren't they bad you
wouldn't do that would you kind of guilt trim them into it but if you pick something
that's if you pick something that's true then it's not really guilt tripping
and then you you just hope that they go through the rest of the book.
(16:14):
Just say, this chapter reminded me of you, because you don't do this.
What I always say is that the book is there to help, but it's not going to be the remedy.
I mean, if it was that simple, it would be great. Like, you give a book to a
person and then all of a sudden they change their minds.
But it does help sometimes. Sometimes you're just that drop in the bucket where
people are like, oh, now I get it, because it's often explained to them at a
(16:35):
moment of great tension. They're there.
Knees deep in project problems. And then the person comes and tells them how
they're doing it all wrong. That's not going to land.
But when they're a little bit more relaxed and they've got the book on their
desk or they just leave through it and go like, oh yeah, I'm just going to take
that to heart and put it down and never tell anyone what I've just learned.
Because that's what we're trying to accomplish. Like micro learning through
(16:55):
funny cartoons that also have a bit of a punch when it comes to the facts that
you get on the other page.
And it seems to work really well. I mean, we're not any kind of New York Times bestseller,
but that wasn't what we were intending we thought that if we were going
to get 250 books sold it would be great because we were
doing it for charity and then when we had 500 we
were still going and then we had 750 and now we've just
(17:17):
set a target for a thousand and we'll see if we get there i'll be buying it
in the moment you can be sure of that thank you when did it launch january 2020
was it four years ago 21 sorry i always get this wrong it's horrible i was thinking
of the chameleon cards i had the The chameleon cards in the front of my mind,
because that was the other project that we did, which I still love so much.
(17:40):
And they're now also, again, for your listeners, everyone, you can just go to
Flim Studios. They're free. They're available. All the materials are there.
They help to decide people on a number of things in their change management
roles, what they want to do, maybe design a new role, design a PD,
whatever you want to do. There's all sorts of tips on there.
But that is still the project that I love so much, probably because I made them
on my own kitchen table, the first draft. The interesting thing here is,
(18:02):
I guess, is that I'm looking at the stuff that you've got online and currently
in the process of putting an Amazon order through for the book.
But the fact is that the content that you put in there.
It's the same as the experience as I see here, probably, I'm guessing now,
it translates across the world.
So change across what's happening in Australia is essentially the same as what's
happening here in the UK.
And I guess, Gilbert, from your experience, having worked over in the Netherlands
(18:26):
as well, these challenges are not exclusive to a country or a culture.
They are the challenges faced with change. Would you agree? I would definitely agree.
And I've started my change career in the Netherlands, but I worked for an American
organization and I was still very hardcore process improvement by then.
But while I was working there, I did my master's in change and organizational
culture. So got a lot more interest in the people side of things.
(18:49):
And then when I moved to Australia, I all of a sudden realized that Europe wasn't
doing all that bad because when I was living in Europe, like,
oh, these people are so behind the times.
And then I came to Australia like, oh, okay, they were actually quite evolved.
And then I recently spoke to one of my friends in Canada, and he said,
look, the people that I speak to from Europe and the UK and Australia,
yeah, they're ahead of us. I'm like, okay, this is interesting.
(19:12):
So I always thought that Australia was very far behind. I would still say that
Europe is quite leading.
I don't know if that's because there's 27 countries in the size of a postage
stamp, but it's just everyone needing to collaborate across all those different cultures.
Maybe they're a little bit ahead of the curve. But on the other hand,
here in Australia, what I really like about the culture and how they go about
(19:33):
change, they might not be really good at it, but man, do they work hard at it.
They really want it to work.
They will give it a go and another go and just keep going at it until you're
like, maybe you need to stop and just take a moment.
But they're quick to get excited about it and they will give it a red hot go.
And even if it doesn't work, well, we gave it a try and let's see what else works.
You know kind of reassuring that the challenges that we face are the same you
(19:56):
know in the organization's process it's quite easy to become quite interested
and think these are my problems and only exist where i work and in the place
of where i live and even just to kind of spin the globe around it's over there
and again actually i've seen from the work that you know you're and peter's drawing is that,
actually, these are the same. This is okay. We're all all right.
We've all got the same challenges.
(20:17):
Maybe how we go about solving them might be somewhat different,
but actually, generally speaking, it's the same thing.
I think, though, coming from an Asian background, though, I've worked on a few
projects in Asia, and I found that the challenges they face are quite different
because of the cultural backgrounds.
What I found the biggest difference was the fact that in a lot of Asian countries,
(20:38):
there's a bit of hierarchy between the younger younger generations, the older generations.
And that sort of goes through the corporate world as well, where your boss is
your boss and you listen to whatever your boss says.
I guess in Australia, for example, if you don't like the change,
you can sort of dispute it.
You can challenge it. You can just go, no, I'm not doing it.
Whereas in Asia, if your boss tells you to do it, you pretty much have to do
(20:58):
it or they'll just fire you and find someone else that will do it.
So it's not all countries, obviously, but yeah, I think it's a bit more cutthroat.
If you come over to Australia, you'll find that there's still this ongoing debate
about people either being qualified slash certified, having actually done a
master's in, or even a bachelor's in organizational development or organizational change.
(21:19):
And some people just feel like they've absorbed it through 20 years of working
in the job and never actually did any qualifications.
And for some, I would agree that they don't need any kind of training.
They could probably deliver their own training.
And for other people who just really wonder, like, I'm not
sure that you're a a benefit to the profession but i'm
not one to judge but i've done my fair share of
(21:40):
training and i feel a little bit supported by my
master's in change and my work at university but yeah
there's a lot of things that you can learn about change without actually going
to school if you're willing to keep an open mind and learn from others because
there's so much that you can do in community groups in platforms on linkedin
you don't have to only formally go to a school to actually learn and get a piece
(22:00):
of paper that says that you are now qualified to talk about What did you take from your master's?
People are difficult, but very important in the process. That's what I took away from it.
Because it was basically an MBA without the financial component.
So everything was very much focused on the organization. And it was a module for culture.
It was a module for HR and one about personal reflection and development,
(22:22):
which I all really enjoyed.
But it really opened my eyes to all the possibilities.
And this is 2010, 2013, right? So this was well before we thought about psychological
safety. Well, some people were thinking about it, but most people weren't and
were definitely not writing books.
So all that good stuff about people I got just before I moved to Australia.
And then my first job in Australia was with the ACT government in a shared services environment.
(22:45):
If you've ever worked in a shared services environment, it doesn't get much more hostile than that.
So yeah, all my people skills really came to the fore.
And I was like, oh, okay, so now I see all these human dynamics at work.
And that's what keeps me in the job.
It's the best part of it. Did you find it boosted your career?
Did people look at it on your CV and think you knew what you were saying or they kind of ignored it?
(23:08):
In some cases, I think there's the one elephant in the room that always comes
up somehow like ADCAR certification.
So ProSci is a very big international change management training delivery organization,
and they do some good stuff with data.
I always feel like I have to credit them for it because they do a lot of good data work.
ADCAR, everyone can make up their own opinion about that. I once felt like I
(23:30):
needed to get the certification because a client of mine wanted me to deliver
25 workshops for 625 people in total.
I do not recommend anyone ever do that, but I did the training and it was okay.
And yeah, you get the basics and then you just go like, okay,
I know how this framework now fits in my, my total, but it's,
it's like with every other degree, how often does it really come up where people ask you like,
(23:51):
so what sort of grades did you get in school 25 years ago? It just doesn't come up.
Maybe. Yeah. Which is a good thing. I think I remember once I'd interviewed
someone and got them for the job and I got them in And I said,
oh, you know, it's really good that you've done your master's.
And they said, well, all I ever really put on my CV was that I'd studied for
(24:11):
a master's. I never said to you that I achieved it.
I dropped out after a few weeks. Right.
Okay. That person was a marketer, actually. It's a bit of false advertising. Can't trust marketers.
Very well done. Yeah. Very good at mapping. To be fair, he's beaten the bot
there, hasn't he, in terms of getting your CV through those screeners.
(24:34):
You've got the magic words on there, but you never actually said that you did
it. It's quite clever. Yes, I quite like it. Go on, Chris, you were going to say something, sorry.
No, it's why I've moved on in my mind, actually. I was just thinking,
Peter, about what you said about the hierarchy in some of the organisations and the Asian cultures.
It's made me think about the ad card process, and it certainly changes the desire piece, doesn't it?
You don't have to worry about that so much because the desire is if you don't
(24:55):
do it, you don't get your job back. So it kind of changed the burning platform a little.
Yeah, I guess a lot of the strategies wouldn't work in organizations like that.
I'll move you, Gilbert, as well, in terms of some of the methodologies.
They are really useful as an approach to start something.
But you're right, the further you go down into following it rigidly,
(25:16):
you miss out on so many other things that from 20-odd years of doing it,
I would not get from just following any of the methodologies solely.
You have to kind of draw upon your experiences of you
know working in different environments delivering different types of
change and then you know reflecting back on the different scars
that you've got from doing those it's it's it's
yeah you're right i completely agree it's not one thing you need it's it's it's
(25:38):
lots of different experiences doing different things and i suppose that's where
your partnership works so well in that you can draw upon those and things can
help you really express them through the visualizations it's really good stuff
what's next for you guys I said,
you've done bad sponsor, you've done bad change. What's next?
We've got a very ambitious project, which we, do we call it bad change camp?
(26:01):
Peter, I always forget. I think it's bad change camp. Yeah. Bad change camp. So,
In recent years, I've developed multiple learning courses for the organizations
that I've worked in. I also teach at university.
It's a completely online course. So I really enjoy the interaction with the students.
Just keeps my finger on the pulse of what people are doing with change management in practice.
(26:22):
So the course that I teach is change tools, but it's sort of condensed form
of what Peter and I want to do.
We want to deliver maybe 20 to 25 micro units of learning about very practical things.
Things but we need to build it we need to build all the animation
it's going to be a project that will probably take us through to 2024 and
there's always weird distractions that come up and we're.
(26:43):
Like oh yeah we should definitely do something about that and then we're off
and we get into something but yeah that's the
next big thing and also the only thing that we really feel like
we have left of one of the big challenges to still
do because we wrote the book we made the cards now training seems
to be a natural progression yeah training is a big thing
as well because if you look around out there in the market again
(27:04):
there's not much that's based based on experience it
seems to be again methodology driven and not
scenario based and what i'm liking about the stuff i've read from
you guys is that you're talking about the real life scenarios that has you
know changed practitioners we all face and you're bringing it
to life and each of the i'm just looking through bad
sponsors still it's on my screen there and you have your cartoon and
(27:26):
then you have some context in terms of the tips to overcome that and
that doesn't exist no not that i've seen not certainly certainly not as
well as you guys have nailed it so i've probably alienated
every other guest we get on who does this stuff now but you're the best i
think that's the that's the angle that
we're going from we're trying to get that sort of make it very practical make
it lighthearted and fun but most importantly something that people will be willing
(27:49):
to pick up and use or read you know the book for example the bad change book
the goal of that is really for it to be not something that you sort of sit through
and read the whole thing it's more so you carry around with you and when you
sort of need help you can sort of easily flick to the relevant page and just
look through through the tips quickly, and then you can just put it away.
It's not something that, you know, you will sort of read from the start to end
and then just store on your bookshelf.
Ideally, it's something you'd be proud to share.
(28:10):
Proud to carry around and just have fun using it yeah it's
accessible though that's what i like about it though so when i'm thinking back to
when i was like a young boy and the books i would read i was never
keen on reading hugely but if you could pick up a
garfield book or fred bassett book if you know what those are i
don't know but you know they're very similar in style you
can pick up the humor and engage with that story in in
three or four boxes of drawings and and then
(28:33):
it kind of encourages you to read more and you build up your confidence
in doing something that is what what this does it did exactly
that i'm so so that's exactly the conversation that
peter and i had about this so i had a question for peter she
was around using like i don't know
if you've come across things like powtoon or canva or some of
the more like assistive tools for change people that
(28:54):
want to do the kind of visualization and animation what's the kind of value
add in in terms of paying for an animator to do this kind of stuff then then
change managers like having a go themselves well there's nothing wrong with
having a go at yourselves you know we've i've seen people people use Paltoons
and Canva and all sorts of programs to visualize change.
I think what you're missing from that is the system or process that I've sort
(29:18):
of learned through going through so many projects. Today, I've done over 200 projects.
And I'd say that probably at least 60% of them sort of follow through the same formula.
And it's that formula that sort of gets you through, and I'm happy to share
the formula. It's essentially your current state.
What are the trying to, what are the challenges you're going through today?
You know, your future state, what are you trying to achieve?
(29:39):
What are the benefits? You know, what's in it for the customers?
What's in it for the stakeholders?
And then it's the strategy in the middle and how you're going to get there.
As long as you sort of have all three elements inside the animation or the illustration,
then you've got a pretty nice picture.
And then the way, and I guess what Powtoons and all the other programs,
they probably won't be able to do is connect all those pretty smoothly, right?
(30:01):
Unless you have someone who's already got a graphic design background,
then yes, they can probably do it.
But it's very rare that you'll find an organization or person who's got all
those skills together to wrap it up into one package.
And that's sort of where I step in. At work, we're in exactly this conversation
right now on Thursday and Wednesday.
We were going through this exact conversation with Powtoon and Canva and Storyblocks.
(30:26):
And one of my colleagues, she's very gifted because she's been doing this for
the past 10 years, but we're all change managers.
We don't, our time is very, very pricey to just go and sit and figure things out.
This today, I just spent two hours putting a very quick seven slide video for 40 seconds together.
It took me two and a half hours. And I consider myself to be pretty fast because
I've learned a lot from Peter.
(30:47):
But then you look at the quality, you go like, well, it's passable, I think.
But I've had multiple experiences where I've drawn up something,
I give it to Peter, and then I get it back and I'm like, yeah,
that's exactly what I wanted, but now it looks good.
And that's, to me, the power of a graphics designer. And everyone who's worked
with a graphics designer and came away from it thinking like,
oh, that wasn't very good, you've hired the wrong person.
Because if you've got a good one, you'll know the difference.
(31:09):
And if, I mean, if you want to be a graphics designer, maybe you're inclined
that way, go and do it. I think it's a really good skill to have as a graphics or as a change manager.
But it's much easier to just pay them. The money is definitely worth it.
I know exactly what you mean.
When you spend hours on something and you're like, I've perfected it,
I've got it all down, and then you give it to a graphic designer,
he knows what they're doing. And they're like, yeah.
(31:31):
Let me redesign that for you. Yeah, but don't underestimate that.
Don't underestimate it. Because like with Peter, the reason why you can turn
things around really quickly when you give it to them is because I understand his process.
And when I work with other graphics designers, so it's definitely worth going
through it. You go like, oh, okay, so now I know about bleed.
I know about contrasting colors.
I know about things that work, fonts that don't work, not too busy on the page.
(31:52):
So if you can do all that preemptive stuff, you can have a much better conversation
with the graphics design and they go like, oh, okay, this person actually knows
what they're talking about.
And it also helps you to keep them focused because some graphics designer,
Peter excluded, they can go off the reservation.
You go like, I asked you to draw me a cartoon with a fridge and a couple of magnets.
And you came over there with a bicycle and a grocery bag. And you're like,
(32:15):
I don't know how you got there. So don't let them get too creative sometimes.
I am completely bought into using design well.
Well and people have these horror memories of me coming back
now where I'd always say that it doesn't really one of
the most important things to get across is something has to look good and
style is massively important and people remember it because
I've banged on this drum so hard for so long but I
(32:37):
always use an example of saying you know the old days of saying you know you
can't judge a book by its cover for me have gone because if your comms and your
change material do not look good no one picks up the book in the first place
the cover actually has to be engaging and it has to look good and it has to
tell the story and then people will buy into the rest you're going to say.
If it's not interesting, people aren't going to listen.
Peter said it, you know, a picture paints a thousand words.
(33:00):
Style, design, change are hand in glove for me.
They come together. You've touched on that perfectly because,
and that's where comics and cartoons stand out.
You know, graphic design, I think it's almost, with my generation at least,
it's sort of expected that anything you present, anything you market has to look good.
You wouldn't go out to market if it doesn't look good because you're just wasting your money
no one's going to click on it comics and cartoons sort
(33:23):
of sort of stand out a little bit because they're not your usual comms
like a pdf for example you know professional looking pdf well
designed by a graphic designer will still stand out but if you
just see a comic there chances are you just go what's this comic and you'll
sort of click through it because we don't see a lot of comics nowadays i think
you're right it's quite subversive to use stuff that's not corporate to get
people's attention and get them to engage with it and i actually i love those
(33:46):
moments when When you give people stuff like that, they're like,
this isn't very professional.
I'm like, no, but you've read it. Yeah. And you learn something and you liked
it because you showed it to your colleague.
And that is the reality nowadays. I see this all the time. I work in a retail
organization where everything is visuals and that's all they care about.
Like they shoot videos off the cuff and in a store and you're like,
(34:08):
that's what we're competing against.
So we can spend 200 or 400 hours on creating the most beautiful collateral.
Role, that other person was just there in the show, in the store shooting a
60 second video. It's already out there. So yeah.
It's actually a challenge I have with sponsors now is when really,
I think the thing that is, like you say, video is such a powerful tool.
(34:28):
And then I'll go to a sponsor and say, really want you to do a video blog or
just do something on camera.
And typically there there's, I don't know what it is about sponsors or execs
or people leading this kind of stuff that no, no, no, no, no,
no. I want you to write a press release for me.
Oh it's so like not engaging but it's hard right to force people to be on camera
(34:49):
is difficult maybe animation helps with that so you can create a mascot you
can create a caricature and then they can just do a voiceover yeah and that's
a lot easier i like those yeah i like those you you.
Imagine imagine there'll be some some sponsors out there going you're not turning me into a cartoon,
you have to have a lot of face in your designer don't you
a lot of face or you just create a new character altogether right
(35:12):
it could be like a dinosaur it could be a blob it could
be anything really and you just turn that as a mascot of your
project or it could be the sponsor that you really wanted
but never had the conversation that i really like to
have with sponsors around that it's like you know what your avatar you can completely
control it won't have a coughing or sneezing fit it won't have a bad day it
will always look super schmick you will always wear your suit or your attire
(35:36):
whatever you dress in that day you can just always look good you can and be
on 24-7. We can control the pitch of your voice.
We can control everything about your brand. And some people love that because
their appeal and appearance is everything to them. And it's because of their role.
But I really enjoyed the stories that Peter always shared with me about when
he does video training with executives, how they're supposed to sit,
(35:56):
how they're supposed to hold their head and not fidget.
And they turn into small children. It's a beautiful story.
Do you do a lot of video, Peter? Yeah, I do.
Not a lot, but it's part of it. Sometimes what I do is,
as part of the change process, is you know sometimes you have
to get the sponsor on the camera and so when i do get
them you know it's we've got the full team there filming everything and
then sometimes for people who are a bit more nervous and don't
(36:19):
have a lot of time we might just record their voiceover and then we
just as again you know sync it to an animation video so again you
know just trying to get the sponsor out as much as possible but it depends on
their speaking level and how comfortable they are in front of the camera not
everyone's made to be in front of the camera no sure i heard you say about sitting
actually one of my top tips i've always given to anybody who's which works with
me is that we never film someone sitting down because they never maintain their height.
(36:43):
They slip, they smooth, and it just doesn't land well. But if you height,
you can't shrink and you can't grow.
Generally, your camera and your height angle is always pretty much spot on.
Well, here's a trick. You can make them sit on the edge of the chair.
If you make them sit on the edge of the chair, it's very hard for them to slouch.
Oh, okay. Look at that. Tips coming out like these.
There we go. Don't let them lean back. If they lean back, they'll move around.
(37:04):
But if you make them sit on the edge, no arm rests, generally they'll sit up
straight and they can only sort of lean forward a little bit or back,
but it's very hard for them. That is a great tip.
That is a great tip. I'm taking that one for myself.
And stools are really good. If you get them on the stools, it's not comfortable,
but they're generally in a good position because their leg sort of sits on the
bottom part of the stool.
So, they're relatively stationary. Not spinning ones. Not spinning ones, no.
(37:29):
So, it's probably an opportunity to wrap up and I guess it'd be great actually
on the subject of tips your tips for thinking about using animation and how
to use it if you were to give
maybe a top tip for both of those what would they be you know
when and people how that'd be quite i can do
a little bit of both so when as soon as possible
and don't be embarrassed to draw out what you think will help because good graphics
(37:53):
designers and visualizers can work with that and it's so helpful for them to
know what you want in your head also helps with their pricing gives them a really
good idea of what you're looking for it helps you think around like what sort
of format do Do I want to do? I want a video.
Do I want to still do? I want anything that you want.
Just draw it out because I mean, we can all draw a bit of a stick figure.
(38:14):
And sometimes people have like super hidden talents that they didn't even know that they had.
So I did a drawing course of two days just to learn about the structures of how to do drawings.
And that's money well spent. So don't feel embarrassed that you can't draw or whatever.
Draw it down. Start early. Write out the script.
Get a graphics designer involved and you'll knock it out of the park.
(38:35):
From me, there's sort of two tips.
Number one is if you're trying to do animation and trying to draw and everything,
remember that you're trying to draw to communicate and not to impress.
So, you know, if you're drawing, it doesn't have to be like an artwork or anything.
The goal is to really communicate. So it can be stick figures,
whatever it is, people will still look at it, people will still be drawn to
it. As long as, you know, just putting a little bit of effort, you'll be fine.
(38:56):
Number two is if you're going to draw about your change or your strategy or
or whatever, make sure that what you're drawing is what the sponsor's after.
Because sometimes if you have a bit, if it's a bit too detached from the sponsor,
they won't be able to own it. They won't want to own it.
And then you won't get a lot of traction and support, you know, launching the project.
So make sure that you get that team involved as well as internal marketing team
(39:18):
and the branding team, because sometimes they might sort of step on your toes
a little bit and say it's not on brand, but cartoons are typically not on brand anyway.
So if you just convince them that, look, this is internal work,
this is, you know, cartoons, it's a different style, you won't have to go through
the whole branding process.
Usually. There's a great tip. Usually.
I've found actually more and more that internal brand has kind of become different
(39:39):
and less less strict as opposed to the external brand.
The internal, you can have a bit more flexibility and there's a wider palette
of things you can do. So, correct.
That really helps if you work with the internal comms and the marketing people
to just explain to them that you understand about the style guide and you want
to respect it, but you also want to sell a good story.
They're generally willing to work with you. But if you start off on a pirate
(40:02):
course and just go like, I'm going to do whatever I want and then go rogue off
the reservation, they're going to be like, no, no, no, no, no.
I've had really good experiences with it. Yeah, it's hard to come back from
once you've gone there, isn't it?
So pete any closing thoughts just so i've really enjoyed
this episode and i'm hoping it'll be something we can
put together nicely no i've really enjoyed that when you
guys have done your next project we've got to get you back to come and talk
about it because that sounds super interesting that would be cool to my point
(40:24):
earlier it seems the challenges we face no matter where they're on the on the
planet all seem pretty similar how we deal with might be slightly different
but the work you guys are doing sounds like it's gonna land well over here and
then you you're everywhere.
We should close though with our usual completely mundane question.
We always ask every guest what their favourite biscuit is.
(40:47):
Maybe, I don't know, maybe this doesn't work outside of the UK,
but we find it's a way of just getting a strange insight into someone.
So who wants to go first? I am not a big biscuit person. I don't really eat biscuits either.
This is showing a lot about the British again.
When was the last time I ate a biscuit? I can't even remember the last time I ate a biscuit.
(41:10):
Maybe a Tim Tams, probably whatever my girlfriend gave me. So I'm going to have
to look up what that is now. What's a Tim Tam?
Oh my Lord, you don't know what a Tim Tam is? Seriously, I think so. No.
Okay, this is a lack in your education. That link needs to be included with the Flim Studios thing.
It's like not knowing what Vegemite is. Surely you know what Vegemite is,
right? Yeah, I've heard of that.
Only because of the song. If you know Vegemite, you should know Tim Tams.
(41:33):
Yeah, Tim Tams are a cultural staple.
You've got like 12 different sorts. They're not actually all that good,
but everybody knows them. and there's even a thing called the Tim Tam Slam,
which you can look up as well.
It's nothing not suited for the workplace. It's just something you do with a
biscuit and double dip and stuff. Well, what is it? You get the biscuit and
you slam it on your head. That's it.
(41:53):
Australian ways of having fun in the office. Yeah.
I mean, you're not excited to watch it on Friday. That's pretty cool,
right? This is telling me a lot about Australian culture now. I know.
I'm not sure I can top the Tim Tam. Don't forget to Google drop bears as well.
Drop bears are very important. comments i know i know about drop bears yeah
oh you do know that one all right damn i'm
(42:15):
afraid to say i don't i feel like i'm missing out i'm gonna have to
go seriously i'm worried if i start googling tim tam and tim tam slams i'm no
no no you won't no it's gonna be totally the drop bears is if if you go for
a walk in the woods especially in australia you need to watch out for the bears
that drop on you and do things yeah that's what they do ferocious yeah no one
(42:35):
knows what they do every day,
I love it I love it we've taken Chris into a
strange dimension here thank you guys
so much for doing this and thanks for spending the time as well because I know
we've run over quite a lot from what we said we would do and yeah I really appreciate
you guys doing this in the evening I've just really enjoyed getting into it
(42:56):
I think I've learned so much from that episode so thank you very much it was
great being here yeah brilliant thank you so much thank you very much it was
fun speaking to you both and look forward to catching up.
Music.
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