March 11, 2024 • 42 mins
Join us for an engaging conversation with Douglas Flory, a change management expert and Association of Change Management Professionals (ACMP) board member. We explore his career journey, his insights on change management and diversity, equality and inclusion (DEI/EDI), and his tips on leading change in a diverse and dynamic world. Doug shares his top tips on managing change and how to create a change management office, as well as his experiences on cultural differences and change in the USA. He also sates our appetite with some delicious sounding cookies at the end...
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Episode Transcript
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Music.
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Welcome to Supercharged, the Change Uncommon's podcast.
In this edition, we're heading over to the United States of America to chat
with the changeologist and culture alchemist.
I'm Chris Bradley and Pete and I are delighted to be with Douglas Flory today.
Douglas is recognised as a top change management voice on LinkedIn and is on
the Council of Advisors for the Association of Change Management Professionals.
Douglas has spent his career working in change management, working across many
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sectors and also leads change management training. I can't wait to find out more.
But before then, as always, let's head over to Barcelona and say hi to Pete. Hi, Chris.
Thank you very much. Very topically, I was down at the port in Barcelona on
Saturday, looking at all the buildings going up for the America's Cup.
So welcome, Douglas. It's great to have you. And we're really looking forward
to grilling you with some questions to go over your wisdom today.
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Could you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Yeah, of course. I'm excited to be here. And I'm looking forward to this time.
Change management, that's my gig. That's what I I love to do. That's my passion.
I've been doing it now for almost something number of years,
but it's been a long time.
And I originally got started, like most people, not in change management.
I actually got started in finance. And
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then they introduced me to project management, and then Lean Six Sigma.
And then eventually change management came my way. And I just have all these
tools in my toolbox that I kind of blend together. And it's been a great journey ever since.
Since then, you've worked across a lot of different industries though,
right? So I wondered if we could start by, could you tell us a bit about some
of the standout moments and things that you've really enjoyed doing?
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The best thing that I love about my job is the irony of it.
It's managing change, right? And a lot of times people get scared or fearful
when there's change or something like that, or there's the ambiguity of something.
But I actually like it when something with change management and something new
come together for the first time. I think that's exciting and captivating.
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Like one of my favorite phrases is change management and fill in the blank are
great together because something like that.
And I've had opportunities to explore
things that I never would have considered before, like D, E, and I.
Putting those two together, it just makes sense now that I think about it.
But because there's some common...
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Tools and applications and encounters that will happen.
But I never would have thought about that. Or, you know, we all went through
the recent pivot to remote work.
I never would have thought about, hey, change management should be leading that.
Or, you know, lots of different areas with like legal or procurement, real estate.
It's just been a very interesting combination. And that's really where I really
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enjoy it the most is where we can do the traditional things we think of,
like policy or technology always focused
on the people of course but being able to explore those new areas
has changed management matures i think that's fun and interesting
what was it d-e-n-i did you say here in
the states we call it d-e-i and it's diversity equity inclusion and
belonging and so they'll have groups employee resource
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groups that are dedicated to various demographics to
support them along the way yeah it's quite yeah it's big here
too we just call call it edi so why has
that stood out for you there was something to get involved with you know i
joined a company in there and during covid era and during that period they hired
a dei leader i reached out to her and i just wanted to welcome her and that
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kind of thing and she started sharing some of the challenges she was facing
and i said as i was just listening to her and everything i was like wow you
know that sounds familiar and what i was hearing was like stakeholder stakeholder identification,
resistance, champions.
How do I get my message out there? How do I get buy-in?
What's in it for me? All these different things that she was encountering.
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Because basically what she was doing was just going around the company and meeting
various people to, you know, share their story and what she's going to be doing.
And she got a lot of resistance, surprisingly, to her.
And as I heard about those things, I was like, you know, So I think I have some
tools that could help you." And we've kind of started partnering together as we work together.
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It really helped her to accelerate and be better prepared and analyze and do
what she needed to do successfully.
And that's not something that, I don't know, I just, for some reason at that
time, I never considered, well, this should go together. This just makes sense.
We've had a very similar conversation where I work at the moment,
and we have a change management office, and we have the equivalent of what you're
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saying in terms of disability equality and so on. And they're two separate columns.
And we could work together, and we can do, we do
talk to each other but i haven't seen the two put together
as a kind of package i guess here's how
i think about i think about de and i and people
ultimately it's about people right and number
that's number one number two is as you're
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trying to embed this into the culture of an organization that's change and so
you have to be able to understand the culture and you have to be able to understand
how to get people on board and otherwise you're not going to have success if
the employees don't identify or get involved with the program that you're creating for them.
And so, I view that as another lens on change management.
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And it's not that DEI and change management have to be in the same office.
You could consult or partner with them and maybe do some coaching on the side, something like that.
And that's kind of the model we followed. We didn't have like the same office.
We had two separate centers of excellence for that.
But you could always partner together because ultimately, you're both trying
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to achieve the same thing for the company and for the employees.
So it's always focused on the people.
Why not figure it out no it's actually quite interesting because in the
background i've just remembered that where i'm working at the moment we have a quality impact
assessment and we're about to roll out some significant training
for the new supercomputer that's going to go across the organization and within
the organization there's a whole different roles i set roles of people
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who either work in you know the markets or business sector
or deep science and actually the you
know the diversity of the audience internally is almost like
four or five different types of businesses all coming together from a
very research heavy focus piece to commercial alarm right
through to the financials or you know the meteorologists who are
science focused and and then a very data-driven
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aspect as well and actually when you think about that quality impact
assessment in terms of at least lnd learning and development it's
actually really applicable to put that right up front to make sure that the
materials that interventions we want to land well as you described it douglas
you know people can identify with it and say actually yeah i can tune into that
that's appealing to my you know my personal neurolinguistic needs or you know
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my my ability to be able to just read something on screen right through from
either end of the scale there.
So it just reminded me of the same process just to go and ask for a copy of
it before we actually branch into design notes.
So I was in the background quickly saying, yep, got my mate here, Douglas.
He's tipped me off to remind myself about the equality impact assessment.
So yeah, good stuff. You're rolling out a supercomputer?
Yeah. I forgot to look. Where do you work? I'm working at the Met Office in
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the UK and we're partnered strategically with Microsoft and we're building,
or Microsoft are building with the Met Office team team a new supercomputer
that will be in the cloud so to date
our supercomputers have all been on premise but for the first time they're going
to be on the cloud and the first upgrade is almost a like for like slightly
bigger and future upgrades will take us to many many times the current size
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which obviously improves the quality of science that gets pulled through into
the products and services that either government business and commercial arms need to you know.
Make well decisions save lives and thrive essentially that's
the same that computer that supercomputer could be the greatest
thing in the world that if people don't know how to use it it's just
going to sit there and gather dust right yeah absolutely it's the exploit it's the
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exploitation of these things that really do drive the benefit because
otherwise like you say it's a it's a set of servers set of racks
stuck in a secure location wearing wearing
away but if we don't we don't pull the benefit out of
them and you know essentially help people thrive and survive then
what's the really what's the point i hope that my
sleuthing on your linkedin profile has been correct and you advertise
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your services as an independent consultant is
that correct yeah i'll do i'll do that what's your okay what's your kind of
career journey being you know have you ended up as a as a consultant and and
what are some of the advantages or disadvantages of you know framing your services
in that way yeah so when i started quite some time ago you know i I was totally new to the,
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to the whole industry and to the concept of change management.
So I was exploring LinkedIn and like, how many people are out there and what's
this look like? And, you know, kind of had the, the honeymoon glasses on him a little bit.
And so as I learned that there were so many more people out there and around
the world, I thought to myself, wow, what's going to differentiate me from all of these people?
What can I, what can I do to become the best that I can be as a change leader?
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And my, my professional journey has been that I've either been an employee and
I've let change, or I've had opportunities to work in consulting firms and led change.
And so as I bounced between those two sides of the table there,
if you will, I kind of wondered, I was always thinking, I wonder what they're
doing on the other side of the table, or why are they asking that question? What are they thinking?
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And I wanted to understand both sides of the table. And that's when I realized,
I think that's what can make me.
Perhaps differentiate myself and allow me to be the best.
Because when you have those conversations, whether you're consulting with a
client or a company, or whether you're talking with a consultant,
or whether you're the employee partnering with that consultant,
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you understand all dimensions as you go through it.
And I think that that's ultimately how I've gotten here. So I've looked at it
more as not necessarily a binary choice of A or B,
but more about which one's the the most unique opportunity
and where where can i go and how
can i help bring the best value and lead change
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successfully for a great experience for everyone that's how
i've gotten to where i am today do you find people respond
to you differently than you were when you're an employee yeah they do positively
and constructively a lot of times they're like well you know they there's the
binary question of why would you want to change to become an employee if i apply
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for a a job as an employer.
And so I have to explain that same situation I just did with you.
But then on the converse, it gives me a lot of advantages and pros because people
are like, oh man, I'm working with this consulting firm and I don't understand
what's going on. And we're completely new to change.
And the whole thing that a lot of people experience these days.
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All of a sudden, my trusted advisor is able to come out and be able to partner
with them and explain, here's what's happening. Here's why they're asking that question.
Here's what that means. or here's their vision that kind of thing so it's got
its moments but i think typically it's for the best is how i'd say do you do
you just wish you could get stuck in and do things sometimes though or is it
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kind of more hands off i don't care if i'm an employee i don't care if i'm consulting,
i just want to help you lead change and that's truly what my passion is and what i love to do so.
I think that's part, getting back to one of your original questions,
that's how I've had the opportunity to experience so many different verticals,
so many different industries, so many different ways of implementing change,
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whether it's culture or systems or people or business or what have you.
Being able to put those things together, I think that's been able to experience those things.
Things have you had a situation doctors where you've had to do
all of those in the same kind of projects or program where you're
looking at both technology culture business kind
of yeah business change and you're looking across and there's kind of like this
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overwhelming tide of people looking at you go what what you're going to do then
yeah actually i had an experience recently where i was working with a client
i was consulting in this instance and you know they were are looking to update their systems.
Now, I say update, I need to give you some context. This is a company that has
been in business for over 100 years.
A lot of heritage, a lot of legacy, a lot of, you know, this is the way we've always done it.
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But at the same time, we want to refresh, we want to be new,
we want to be, you know, current with the millennials and the new generations.
But we also want to really value and emphasize our historical wins,
our legacy, how we got here. So how do you do all those things together?
And that was one of the more interesting opportunities I had because how often
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do you have a chance to kind of refresh a 100-year-old entity that has been
involved in so many different things?
So I found that really interesting and definitely got into the culture,
the mindsets, the behaviors, some of the values and things like that.
It was a lot of fun. It was one of those things, again, where I was like,
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well, how do you refresh a 100-year-old company and make it new?
That's, you know, so not something you encounter every day. I think you should
do a podcast on that, Douglas, because I'd listen.
That definitely sounds like a learning opportunity to me. Yeah,
it was a lot of fun, a lot of fun.
But, I mean, that's one of the things I love about this job,
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right, is exploring that ambiguity,
that new ground, and kind of breaking the mold as I think our industry and profession
is at a maturation point and we're growing and expanding and I think we're evolving into new areas.
Something I wanted to talk about and I was thinking, I don't know,
maybe we can merge it together, but was a kind of top three tips type of thing.
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And I was originally thinking, what would your top three tips be if someone
was setting up a change management office or they were just bringing in that
kind of change capability to their organization?
But i'm wondering if we expand it slightly as well to just tips that you would
give to lead change as well because i think they do go together in terms of
building that capability.
This was inspired by the way by your post on the lego
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change management office which i loved that was a lot of fun like i was surprised
at the response but people love legos and i'm one of them so i have children
and over the christmas break recently they put they took all their legos and
merged them into like one giant universe of something.
It's like a hodgepodge of like Jazz Club, Harry Potter, you know,
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all the different things.
And they've got this big, huge world they created up there. Love it.
Sorry, today purged. Thanks.
Okay, yeah. The interesting thing about that Lego post was that I think what
it does is it actually creates some fun around it, but it also creates a vision, right?
About how to create a center of excellence.
And it kind of got a really strong reaction to, yeah, I really like this,
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or I really want this, right?
And I think a lot of times when people think of center of excellence,
they're trying to understand like, you know, there's always that question,
where does change management fit? Is it in HR?
Is it in IT? Or where is it?
And I think we should have like a strategy office at an organization.
And that strategy office should be a blend of different methodologies and skills
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together, so that we can ultimately achieve whatever the company's objectives
are and steer and navigate those unexpected and the expected things.
When you're setting it up, number one, you got to have a vision.
Number two, if you're going to have a vision, then you got to have a charter.
You know, why are we here? What's our purpose? Who we serve?
Those kind of fundamentals.
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Because what I found through experience when I've set up centers of excellence
is that oftentimes, you know, there's a company that has thousands of employees,
maybe, you know, all over the world, globally spread out.
And there's typically like maybe two to six of you or something. thing.
How do you two to six people manage change across thousands of people across the entire globe?
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You know, the numbers and the math don't always work out too well there.
So you have to be able to figure out a strategy and a structure and a plan to
be able to have an intake process to educate them and teach them on these concepts,
but also be involved at the right levels. So I guess that's tip number two.
And tip number three is draw upon the people side of change.
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I know that sounds stereotypical or commonly said all the time in change management,
but more than ever, I believe that skill sets and leadership need more focus
on the people side of change, the power skills,
if you will, that are often historically called the soft skills.
I think we're at an evolutionary point right now where those type of skills
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and that focus and those talents are really what's going to accelerate organizations
and people forward into the future, even today. I like those.
I do like those. And it kind of drives me back into something Pete and I have
talked a lot about over the last couple of years is that the combination of
the skills needed to be a product owner,
combining that with change management actually really does start to evolve the thinking on how we.
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Deliver that cluster of changes not just people technology
or process or culture but bringing them together if you
start off with your vision as you would a product and
you work your way down through your your stories which is your
charter and then you build your way through into your approach your cadences
and your mechanisms this is a really good good good starting point of three
tips i think it was yeah i like something i'm just reflecting on i found this
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for your second point in terms of capacity management and how do you actually
prioritize and so on this everywhere Everywhere I've worked so far,
I've always tried to get to the point of having a service offering for like,
you know, your platinum,
your gold and your silver standard that you give out to people.
Chris, you were one of the people that came up with that.
But the challenge I've always had, and actually not just as a change manager
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also, but it's ultimately, you know, you can try and tell someone that you're
only giving them silver service and they should go away.
But if they've got the money and they've got the ear
of the chief exec and and it's something they want to do
and it does have an impact on people you kind of have to listen to
them and you have to do it yeah but i want to put some context in there
that we had a small team we couldn't do everything for everybody
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i don't know it wasn't it wasn't just that team no i found
it actually almost every team i've worked with has tried to take
that model but the reality of doing it is
always a bit different it is it is tough a lot of
it comes down though to the the the impact and
the the benefit that comes from it so if you go output outcome benefit you
know how much and how much resource you've got to deliver you
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know a portfolio of 30 projects or or you know a
number of projects and programs i do still think you have to have a point which
says you're going to get guidance and that's pretty much all we can get because
over here is this mahima for the finance change which is supposed to return
two billion pounds of benefit and if i'm given my yeah i'm going to attract
five new customers or 10 billion pounds of benefit i'm going to get told off
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if i send and you're over there kind of approach.
I could be wrong in that thinking type, just to correct me. No,
I think you're both spot on in both comments. I mean...
It's not just a change management thing. It's not just a project management
thing, a scrum or product owner or whatever your role is.
We all have to figure out some kind of way to prioritize the responsibilities,
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the objectives, the KPIs, OKRs, whatever you use.
We have to be able to figure out how are we going to prioritize them? What's number one?
What's number two? So I think that's a challenge that's not unique just to change
management, but everybody faces these days because there's demand 24-7,
365 for something to be done yesterday.
And the second thing is, to your point, I mean, somebody shared something interesting
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with me the other day that I'd never, like I kind of knew, but I'd never heard it said.
And they said, you know, I'm a project manager. And another person said,
you know, I'm a scrum person or I'm an agile fan or whatever,
you know, context they were. And I said, ultimately, what we're trying to do is create change.
I was like, you know, I kind of stopped and thought about that for a minute.
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And I was like, well, yeah, I guess you do create change in the sense that you're
an agent of change, creating some kind of product or output that is available to do something.
So, you know, we're all in this together in terms of what change is.
But the ability to lead change or manage change is different.
We're all trying to do the same thing. We're just trying to help each other. that
really stood kind of cut me off guard a little bit like
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wait a minute you're you're an agent of team i never
thought about that agent of change sounds cooler than
change agent i think i first take that get a
brand team on that a couple of bits i wanted to
talk about first was to explain a little bit we've never
talked about the acmp on this podcast so i i
think we have talked about the change management institute so
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you're you're our first guest that can kind of to give the pitch for what ACMP
does I wonder alongside that as well whether something we really wanted to get
into is to talk a bit about the cultural differences that you might see in the
US as well in terms of how people handle or go through change so take your pick.
CMI and ACMP are almost like one in the same it's just that CMI is really they
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got their focus and their their basis and foundation is really in like Australia
Asia Pacific type area they've also so got some other areas in Europe and things like that,
but that's primarily where their core audience of focus is.
Ultimately we're looking to do kind of the same kind of thing almost.
ACMP stands for the Association of Change Management Professionals.
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And it is the equivalent to like what project managers use with PMI,
Project Management Institute, or HR people use with SHRM, that kind of thing.
It's a professional body dedicated to the profession and the industry to to
lead the thought leadership.
The professionalism, the ethics, the standards, all of that as a place for professionals
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who are interested or involved in that community.
And they want to have a place where they can come for conferences,
webinars, continuous learning, professional credentials, things like that.
And so that's what ACMP is. It's the global leader in change.
They've got chapters in places like in Africa, South Africa,
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Ukraine, all over North America, Canada, Europe, all over the world and continues to grow.
And to be a part of that was an amazing, humbling, privileged experience that I had.
And, yeah, just to be able to see change, not just from a North American,
Canadian, U.S. perspective, but, you know, to see some people out there,
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like, there's so much talent in our community around the world.
Especially, like, I never would have thought, but I learned very quickly,
Australia has a wealth of talent, a wealth of talent.
And that's, you know, that's where your friends from the last podcast came from,
with Flint Studios and everybody, Gilbert and Peter and everybody. everybody.
Europe, of course, has a wealth of talent as well.
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I've learned so much from them. But I'm also learning from Africa and how they approach things.
And it's so fun and interesting.
I think that was so fun and interesting to be able to learn a new perspective,
a new cultural dynamic to bring to my toolkit, my tool belt.
And it just really helped me to connect with people on a better level.
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So that's a little bit about what ACMP is. What's your role in ACNP?
So originally I got started here in my local state and we created a chapter
for ACNP here in my state.
And it's the only one here, still is. And then they annually,
they have like an annual election process where you can be part of the global board of directors.
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And I thought, okay, I'll throw my hat in the ring. See what happens.
I never thought I had a chance.
I thought, you know, I'm one in a million. There's probably super talent and
superheroes out there that'll get it, right?
And I went through the process. And sure enough, they called me one day and,
hey, Doug, you know, this is so-and-so. And we want to congratulate you.
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You've been elected by your global peers to be on the global board.
And I was like, oh, come on. Who is this?
Come on. And I hung up.
And she called me back, and I was like, no, I'm serious. I'm like, really? Me?
You know, it just floored me. And so you serve a three-year commitment on the board.
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I just finished my third year. And during my second and third year,
I also was elected to the treasury role. role.
And now as I completed my board of directors election, we created something
new called the Council of Advisors. And what we're, it's brand new.
And what we're trying to do is bring together the historical legacy leaders
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of ACMP and help to create something new that where people who are really experienced
or tenured in change management can really find value.
I think there's a lot of of growth in the industry right now.
A lot of people who are curious about change.
My friend calls it the change, curious being called up that.
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And so there's a lot of them and there's a lot of people who are new to the profession.
And so we're, we're certainly seeing a lot of uptick in those audiences and
personas, but we have to make sure that we're continuing to develop and help
engage our tenured experience leaders along the way.
And that's what we're hoping to do is we're like a council of elders.
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This i like it yeah it's got a lord of the rings feel to it it does sound really
good and the things you'd go to to get a new t-shirt and free pen i'm amazed
i know just think about that you walked around i'm part i'm on a council of
advisors the the elders or whatever you call it.
That would be pretty impressive, wouldn't it? Your LinkedIn profile would just explode.
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It is pretty cool, though, to be fair. I remember when I was moving in different
parts of my career and ending up in change management, looking around,
there wasn't a lot of people to call upon to ask for help.
So especially like a collective as well, where you wouldn't just be asking one
people, you'd be asking a group that would be able to give you a variety of
opinions to chew over, rather than just accepting one route is better than the
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other. It just didn't exist.
It still really in some ways doesn't now. Now, this is where the pod does help.
I know we've connected people that hadn't connected before just through listening
to guests and what have you. So you never know where these things lead.
But, yeah, I think they're a great initiative, that kind of founding council. Yeah, it's great.
Yeah, I mean, our minds are better when we're together and we combine all that experience.
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Think about how much we can help the future leaders of change or those big hairy
rocks that we're all facing.
You know, here's some different perspectives and ideas that we've experienced
here, some things we learned.
And the work i agree i mean we undertake
a set of training for a methodology of choice or whichever
one our company inflicts upon us and and that gives
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us a set of guardrails i say many times but actually that gets
you so far and it's the the experience and
the the you know the wounds on your back they're the ones that tell you
where sometimes which is the better path to take and sometimes
you know it feels like that pathway might be slightly less likely
to cause you an injury if there's a group you can go and you know
pose your questions or or thoughts to tell us
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a a bit about the states what's it like doing change there but
what do you see different elsewhere you know the interesting thing
i'll say about acmp that i really appreciate is that
they partner very closely with all the big names
in change management so you know the cotters the pro size and
and everybody like that so but the thing about the association that i really
appreciate is to a couple of things and i don't want to number them but number
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one is their method agnostic So they don't subscribe to this is the way and
follow the checklist or,
you know, check the boxes or whatever, right?
They do provide a framework called the standard.
And it's built around, you know, the best practices, the standards of change management.
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And it was created by people from all around the
world and as they did it together and then
what they did was they also got it certified through iso
which is if you're familiar with iso they
have a global standard for that so that's what
helps also certify for the testing and and the the information that you're asked
as well as the as well as the content so that's one thing i really loved about
(28:21):
it and that really applies universally because you know so many of us like you
said that's subscribed to a certain
methodology because that's what our company has chosen or whatever.
And so therefore you have to adapt to that one.
Being able to understand the fundamentals so that you can go from Cotter to
Luern to ProSci or whatever the different styles are that are out there.
(28:44):
I think that's ultimately what I appreciate about that.
The other thing I really appreciate about it is the code of ethics.
They have a code of ethics that applies to you as a change management professional.
And I think in today's world, that stands out a lot to me.
Simply, maybe it's a personal choice. choice, but in today's environment,
we see a lot of news or articles or social media posts and things where ethics
(29:10):
and decisions and choices and behaviors and actions and things are always in play.
And a code of ethics is something that applies to all of us,
regardless of what methodology we subscribe to.
And I think that I'm getting to your culture question here now. So here it comes.
So when you're in Turkey or whether you're in,
(29:32):
let's say, Central or South America or perhaps the UK or where have you,
knowing that you have those and you have people from all over the world come
together to share information that you can,
you know, this is my tribe, this is my people.
And like you said before, I can ask questions and get answers.
I can continuously learn by attending webinars, by presenting and sharing information,
(29:57):
or joining their social platform of different information.
I think that's how I learned so much about the culture was because you would
see their challenges or where they were.
I'll give you a personal experience, and I'm not going to say her name,
but she knows who she is, but she's in the Ukraine. And she started a chapter
(30:18):
just before the war there.
And think about what type of change she's going through as she's trying to lead
change during the last two years.
I think it's been two years now in Ukraine. And that's totally different than...
You know, just the traditional change management that we think of when we think
of change management, because what I came to know was there were,
(30:41):
there's a different type of change that people were going through.
They were going through like, you know, almost like the, the peer Maslow's pyramid.
Like I need the most fundamental thing.
How can people help me emotionally? How can people help my family? What do they do?
It's kind of like coaching, but, but there's a
group of professionals out there who deal with like
(31:03):
you've gone through some kind of life-changing event
or some kind of emergency type
of situation and the trauma that's the one i'm looking for sorry trauma coaching
and they often encounter change with people yeah it's on the people right but
it's not it's not change management like we think but it's definitely influencing
(31:25):
how people go go through change,
help me get through this change and the emotions and the outcomes of what I've been through.
That was an amazing story to watch her go through, but also try and strengthen
her people that way, but also any resources we could do to connect and network people with her.
(31:45):
It was an amazing experience to be able to watch her go
through that and just how strong of a person she was and help
people lead through change individually but also
professionally as a business and as
a chapter and to really evolve that there
that was she she's amazing that was
one opportunity i had to learn about culture and change
(32:07):
what do you think makes change are there any things you can pick out that are
specific to the u.s though or things that we might find a bit bit different
i would say in the u.s we're probably more microwavable okay i don't know but
like instant like i gotta have it now and if i have to wait 30 seconds to get my whatever.
(32:27):
That's too long i should have had it like yesterday and we've gotten so i don't know.
Digitalized and so almost immune
to the fact that i can do this like that quick you know the the whole,
I'm still amazed by the fax machine, personally. I can send a fax and a picture
(32:50):
of a fax to somebody anywhere in the world. But we kind of take that for granted, right?
And I think here in America, we take a lot of those things for granted.
And I think that we're so built up on speed and what's next.
And I've got to achieve my next goal and objective.
And, you know, it's just keep going, keep going, keep going, keep going.
(33:11):
And as I watch other parts of the world, I'm like, why is that country ranked,
quote-unquote, the happiest place on earth or the country with the most joy
or whatever it is that they experience in life?
As I study them, it's a totally different mindset.
It's a totally different culture, totally different set of values and perspectives.
(33:35):
And I think it's a totally different pace culture-wise.
I think we pick up on that yeah in
just bits you listen to in media and politics
and and so on in that it's very
especially in the tech space it's very like we
need to be more like silicon valley we need to be agile we need to be doing
(33:56):
things fast we've got to do it now so yeah i can imagine from what you're saying
that living in that yeah i mean not in silicon valley but in in that kind of
culture must be quite jarring from a change perspective though It can be.
I actually did work in Silicon Valley and where I work, we have something,
the Silicon Valley slogan or nickname, I guess you could say,
(34:19):
it's kind of expanded to different parts of the US, but it has its own unique.
So like where I live, there's a lot of mountains and skiing, that kind of thing.
So there's Silicon Slopes and there's a lot of technology companies here.
And then there's Silicon this and Silicon S and other parts of America too, right?
Because Silicon Slopes is beginning to be distributed and remote and all that
(34:42):
kind of stuff. Because companies go to different places.
I just want to go back to that culture thing because something else that just
popped in my head was over the last few years, as I was watching the prime minister
of New Zealand, watching her go what she went through.
And then here in the States, I'm watching our leadership. And I'm like, what did...
(35:03):
Bipolar approach is this you know and from
such different angles and what's
important to the leader and how they helped their
people collectively go through something or not
go through something collectively i think that
that's another example that stood out to me as well and one of
(35:23):
the things i pick up over here douglas is something that's caught my eye
over the last couple years in terms of a cultural thing and i don't know where it reflects
across the world because i haven't asked anybody else but this obsession
with resistance before you've even you know formed your
plan for change it's it's uh it's everywhere you
go everyone's like that's not gonna you won't be able to do that you know they're gonna.
Fight you back on that you have to stand back you'll have to let
(35:43):
them do themselves i'm kind of like we haven't even really got to the
nub of you know going right back to the vision of what the change is
let alone what the plan of even using ad card would be to
to build up to remove the resistance but the
obsession with resistance i see over over over here particularly
through projects i've either worked on or spoken
to people about it seems to be really high
(36:04):
in terms of a cultural fear and i think it is a fear i
don't think that i think it is somewhat unfounded i think most employees you
know state in the obvious here but if
they understand the reason for the change they're more likely to accept i mean looking at
one of your posts i love the one where the road splits off and the road
wheels off in one direction and the other road is dead straight
but a dead straight road was the one that we've got rid of you know but i
(36:24):
think that that's that's just fear that's fear
mongering isn't it at the very beginning by people who are you know
crystallizing myths by telling them that they'll never like it
so then they believe they'll never like it and then that's it we're addicted
to never liking it you know a long way to say the same thing i guess but yeah
that's something i don't know i don't know whether you find the same over there
because the the demand for something quicker means you don't get so much time
(36:46):
to have resistance i don't know i'm curious i have seen a lot more posts on.
Resistance, just the topic in general.
And when I see those, I think of a couple of things in response.
Number one is, why is that?
I've tried to understand. And what I try to do is step away from change management
and look at it from a bigger picture.
(37:07):
And I think what we're facing today societally, especially here in the States,
is more back to what we said before, A lot of labeling, a lot of stereotyping, a lot of grouping,
because as humans, we tend to, you know, for example, you know,
somebody might be seeing or watching this podcast and go, oh,
(37:28):
well, there's two people with glasses.
Obviously, the third one needs glasses or doesn't know about the value of glasses.
So probably these people here, you know, that kind of thing.
So we see a lot of fractionalism, if that's the right word. A lot of people
trying to find their group, but they end up splitting into smaller and smaller
entities to try and be with their groups.
(37:49):
And I think that's part of the resistance mindset that we're seeing is like, oh, well, that's not us.
I'm not in that group. So therefore, you know, it's us versus them or that kind of thing.
That's one thing i think that's kind of a catalyst to
a lot of the hyperbole around change resistance
i think we contribute to that sometimes so because some
(38:10):
part of what we do and you know that stakeholder planning or or assigning people
into group does that yeah we do we do but it's typically based on like you know
organizational role region the the the characteristics and the the attributes of the company,
not so much the demographics of the people, more, I guess you could say.
(38:33):
And I do agree with you that sometimes as change leaders,
we tend to maybe shoot ourselves in the foot a little bit by using the wrong
words like, you know, change fatigue or change management sometimes is a bit of a oxymoron.
You know, there's lots of words that, you know, change fails 70% of the time
is something Something we often read even though it's not a true factor.
(38:59):
So, you know, those kinds of things that we're saying about ourselves can also hurt us as well.
I think we need to evaluate our own language, our own mindsets and thinking
as we lead change and think about, am I reflecting what I'm teaching?
Am I teaching, you know, doing what I'm preaching? Walking the walk.
The second thing that comes to my mind is like when I see all those articles
(39:19):
on resistance, it's always about you got to overcome it. You got to beat it. You got to win it.
And it's like us versus them. And I don't think that's what it should be.
I think it should be understand it.
Because if you don't understand that resistance, then you don't truly fully
understand the change as well as you should. Spot on.
Absolutely agree. If you are trying to overcome resistance, that means you're trying to win.
(39:45):
So you're right, they're wrong. You win, they lose.
And that's not what we should be doing. I say this on other things,
Douglas, we say about taking therapy at the very beginning of a change to understand
what it is to help listen to the fears right up front.
Because if you've got that right up front, you don't need to worry about the
resistance because you'll build your change plan around what their fears are
(40:05):
early on, right? Yeah, yeah.
And oftentimes as change managers, we do wear therapy hats.
So there's lots of things we do, right?
But I think it's about understanding it, embracing it.
And if you do that then you're building
the trust and you're gaining the voice you're hearing
the voice and you're gaining their confidence rather than
(40:26):
coming to the table at the end and they're like hey wait a minute or you know
i don't know anything about this or you know disrupting your whole effort that
you put in the time and the money and the budget and the sweat and the tears
and the blood and you got to embrace it don't don't look at it as like you know.
Darth Vader versus Luke Skywalker kind of thing. That's the soundbite, Pete.
(40:48):
That's the soundbite. I was thinking of summing a bit more. You probably won't
know who the Borg are or what Doctor Who is, or perhaps that's too British.
I don't know. You do? Okay, yeah. No, it's that assimilation mindset of the
Borg. Maybe that's more where we need to go.
Yeah, maybe that resonates more. There's one last question we'd like to finish on,
(41:10):
which is apparently quite a cultural distinguisher
we found last week with the aussies and it's
uh it's quite mundane i think but it's
just what if you could tell us what your favorite biscuit is and
we don't mean potatoes and gravy i learned this
the other day yeah cookies yeah i learned the other
day biscuits can be like a potato covered in gravy can't it
(41:32):
that's that's an american thing biscuits and gravy i
wasn't even gonna respond with that that's that's yeah
that's a totally different thing i just thought i just
thought of what my favorite biscuit is okay so this is when i
was a little child my grandmother would make
this cookie and i was basically it was kind of like
peanut it was dough but it was it had some
peanut butter flavor to it a little bit and a
(41:55):
little bit of sugar on top and then you'd warm
it up and then in the middle you'd put like a hershey kiss oh
nice have you heard of those yep yep and they were called kisses i
don't know know but when they were warm they would
just go in your mouth and they would just like melt and they
were so good that combination of peanut butter and chocolate
of course and just a hint of a little bit
(42:17):
of sugar on top that's probably my favorite cookie because of my childhood that
sounds way better than anything we've talked about it's been super great having
you and i know we'll do this again i've got a great idea about the next one
actually involving you doug so we'll talk offline about that but thank you so.
Much for joining us good to meet you as well thank you thank you very much.
Music.
Music.
(00:05):
Welcome to Supercharged, the Change Uncommon's podcast.
In this edition, we're heading over to the United States of America to chat
with the changeologist and culture alchemist.
I'm Chris Bradley and Pete and I are delighted to be with Douglas Flory today.
Douglas is recognised as a top change management voice on LinkedIn and is on
the Council of Advisors for the Association of Change Management Professionals.
Douglas has spent his career working in change management, working across many
(00:27):
sectors and also leads change management training. I can't wait to find out more.
But before then, as always, let's head over to Barcelona and say hi to Pete. Hi, Chris.
Thank you very much. Very topically, I was down at the port in Barcelona on
Saturday, looking at all the buildings going up for the America's Cup.
So welcome, Douglas. It's great to have you. And we're really looking forward
to grilling you with some questions to go over your wisdom today.
(00:51):
Could you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Yeah, of course. I'm excited to be here. And I'm looking forward to this time.
Change management, that's my gig. That's what I I love to do. That's my passion.
I've been doing it now for almost something number of years,
but it's been a long time.
And I originally got started, like most people, not in change management.
I actually got started in finance. And
(01:12):
then they introduced me to project management, and then Lean Six Sigma.
And then eventually change management came my way. And I just have all these
tools in my toolbox that I kind of blend together. And it's been a great journey ever since.
Since then, you've worked across a lot of different industries though,
right? So I wondered if we could start by, could you tell us a bit about some
of the standout moments and things that you've really enjoyed doing?
(01:34):
The best thing that I love about my job is the irony of it.
It's managing change, right? And a lot of times people get scared or fearful
when there's change or something like that, or there's the ambiguity of something.
But I actually like it when something with change management and something new
come together for the first time. I think that's exciting and captivating.
(01:57):
Like one of my favorite phrases is change management and fill in the blank are
great together because something like that.
And I've had opportunities to explore
things that I never would have considered before, like D, E, and I.
Putting those two together, it just makes sense now that I think about it.
But because there's some common...
(02:17):
Tools and applications and encounters that will happen.
But I never would have thought about that. Or, you know, we all went through
the recent pivot to remote work.
I never would have thought about, hey, change management should be leading that.
Or, you know, lots of different areas with like legal or procurement, real estate.
It's just been a very interesting combination. And that's really where I really
(02:38):
enjoy it the most is where we can do the traditional things we think of,
like policy or technology always focused
on the people of course but being able to explore those new areas
has changed management matures i think that's fun and interesting
what was it d-e-n-i did you say here in
the states we call it d-e-i and it's diversity equity inclusion and
belonging and so they'll have groups employee resource
(03:01):
groups that are dedicated to various demographics to
support them along the way yeah it's quite yeah it's big here
too we just call call it edi so why has
that stood out for you there was something to get involved with you know i
joined a company in there and during covid era and during that period they hired
a dei leader i reached out to her and i just wanted to welcome her and that
(03:21):
kind of thing and she started sharing some of the challenges she was facing
and i said as i was just listening to her and everything i was like wow you
know that sounds familiar and what i was hearing was like stakeholder stakeholder identification,
resistance, champions.
How do I get my message out there? How do I get buy-in?
What's in it for me? All these different things that she was encountering.
(03:42):
Because basically what she was doing was just going around the company and meeting
various people to, you know, share their story and what she's going to be doing.
And she got a lot of resistance, surprisingly, to her.
And as I heard about those things, I was like, you know, So I think I have some
tools that could help you." And we've kind of started partnering together as we work together.
(04:05):
It really helped her to accelerate and be better prepared and analyze and do
what she needed to do successfully.
And that's not something that, I don't know, I just, for some reason at that
time, I never considered, well, this should go together. This just makes sense.
We've had a very similar conversation where I work at the moment,
and we have a change management office, and we have the equivalent of what you're
(04:25):
saying in terms of disability equality and so on. And they're two separate columns.
And we could work together, and we can do, we do
talk to each other but i haven't seen the two put together
as a kind of package i guess here's how
i think about i think about de and i and people
ultimately it's about people right and number
that's number one number two is as you're
(04:47):
trying to embed this into the culture of an organization that's change and so
you have to be able to understand the culture and you have to be able to understand
how to get people on board and otherwise you're not going to have success if
the employees don't identify or get involved with the program that you're creating for them.
And so, I view that as another lens on change management.
(05:10):
And it's not that DEI and change management have to be in the same office.
You could consult or partner with them and maybe do some coaching on the side, something like that.
And that's kind of the model we followed. We didn't have like the same office.
We had two separate centers of excellence for that.
But you could always partner together because ultimately, you're both trying
(05:31):
to achieve the same thing for the company and for the employees.
So it's always focused on the people.
Why not figure it out no it's actually quite interesting because in the
background i've just remembered that where i'm working at the moment we have a quality impact
assessment and we're about to roll out some significant training
for the new supercomputer that's going to go across the organization and within
the organization there's a whole different roles i set roles of people
(05:52):
who either work in you know the markets or business sector
or deep science and actually the you
know the diversity of the audience internally is almost like
four or five different types of businesses all coming together from a
very research heavy focus piece to commercial alarm right
through to the financials or you know the meteorologists who are
science focused and and then a very data-driven
(06:13):
aspect as well and actually when you think about that quality impact
assessment in terms of at least lnd learning and development it's
actually really applicable to put that right up front to make sure that the
materials that interventions we want to land well as you described it douglas
you know people can identify with it and say actually yeah i can tune into that
that's appealing to my you know my personal neurolinguistic needs or you know
(06:34):
my my ability to be able to just read something on screen right through from
either end of the scale there.
So it just reminded me of the same process just to go and ask for a copy of
it before we actually branch into design notes.
So I was in the background quickly saying, yep, got my mate here, Douglas.
He's tipped me off to remind myself about the equality impact assessment.
So yeah, good stuff. You're rolling out a supercomputer?
Yeah. I forgot to look. Where do you work? I'm working at the Met Office in
(06:57):
the UK and we're partnered strategically with Microsoft and we're building,
or Microsoft are building with the Met Office team team a new supercomputer
that will be in the cloud so to date
our supercomputers have all been on premise but for the first time they're going
to be on the cloud and the first upgrade is almost a like for like slightly
bigger and future upgrades will take us to many many times the current size
(07:18):
which obviously improves the quality of science that gets pulled through into
the products and services that either government business and commercial arms need to you know.
Make well decisions save lives and thrive essentially that's
the same that computer that supercomputer could be the greatest
thing in the world that if people don't know how to use it it's just
going to sit there and gather dust right yeah absolutely it's the exploit it's the
(07:41):
exploitation of these things that really do drive the benefit because
otherwise like you say it's a it's a set of servers set of racks
stuck in a secure location wearing wearing
away but if we don't we don't pull the benefit out of
them and you know essentially help people thrive and survive then
what's the really what's the point i hope that my
sleuthing on your linkedin profile has been correct and you advertise
(08:02):
your services as an independent consultant is
that correct yeah i'll do i'll do that what's your okay what's your kind of
career journey being you know have you ended up as a as a consultant and and
what are some of the advantages or disadvantages of you know framing your services
in that way yeah so when i started quite some time ago you know i I was totally new to the,
(08:24):
to the whole industry and to the concept of change management.
So I was exploring LinkedIn and like, how many people are out there and what's
this look like? And, you know, kind of had the, the honeymoon glasses on him a little bit.
And so as I learned that there were so many more people out there and around
the world, I thought to myself, wow, what's going to differentiate me from all of these people?
What can I, what can I do to become the best that I can be as a change leader?
(08:48):
And my, my professional journey has been that I've either been an employee and
I've let change, or I've had opportunities to work in consulting firms and led change.
And so as I bounced between those two sides of the table there,
if you will, I kind of wondered, I was always thinking, I wonder what they're
doing on the other side of the table, or why are they asking that question? What are they thinking?
(09:10):
And I wanted to understand both sides of the table. And that's when I realized,
I think that's what can make me.
Perhaps differentiate myself and allow me to be the best.
Because when you have those conversations, whether you're consulting with a
client or a company, or whether you're talking with a consultant,
or whether you're the employee partnering with that consultant,
(09:31):
you understand all dimensions as you go through it.
And I think that that's ultimately how I've gotten here. So I've looked at it
more as not necessarily a binary choice of A or B,
but more about which one's the the most unique opportunity
and where where can i go and how
can i help bring the best value and lead change
(09:52):
successfully for a great experience for everyone that's how
i've gotten to where i am today do you find people respond
to you differently than you were when you're an employee yeah they do positively
and constructively a lot of times they're like well you know they there's the
binary question of why would you want to change to become an employee if i apply
(10:14):
for a a job as an employer.
And so I have to explain that same situation I just did with you.
But then on the converse, it gives me a lot of advantages and pros because people
are like, oh man, I'm working with this consulting firm and I don't understand
what's going on. And we're completely new to change.
And the whole thing that a lot of people experience these days.
(10:34):
All of a sudden, my trusted advisor is able to come out and be able to partner
with them and explain, here's what's happening. Here's why they're asking that question.
Here's what that means. or here's their vision that kind of thing so it's got
its moments but i think typically it's for the best is how i'd say do you do
you just wish you could get stuck in and do things sometimes though or is it
(10:54):
kind of more hands off i don't care if i'm an employee i don't care if i'm consulting,
i just want to help you lead change and that's truly what my passion is and what i love to do so.
I think that's part, getting back to one of your original questions,
that's how I've had the opportunity to experience so many different verticals,
so many different industries, so many different ways of implementing change,
(11:16):
whether it's culture or systems or people or business or what have you.
Being able to put those things together, I think that's been able to experience those things.
Things have you had a situation doctors where you've had to do
all of those in the same kind of projects or program where you're
looking at both technology culture business kind
of yeah business change and you're looking across and there's kind of like this
(11:39):
overwhelming tide of people looking at you go what what you're going to do then
yeah actually i had an experience recently where i was working with a client
i was consulting in this instance and you know they were are looking to update their systems.
Now, I say update, I need to give you some context. This is a company that has
been in business for over 100 years.
A lot of heritage, a lot of legacy, a lot of, you know, this is the way we've always done it.
(12:03):
But at the same time, we want to refresh, we want to be new,
we want to be, you know, current with the millennials and the new generations.
But we also want to really value and emphasize our historical wins,
our legacy, how we got here. So how do you do all those things together?
And that was one of the more interesting opportunities I had because how often
(12:24):
do you have a chance to kind of refresh a 100-year-old entity that has been
involved in so many different things?
So I found that really interesting and definitely got into the culture,
the mindsets, the behaviors, some of the values and things like that.
It was a lot of fun. It was one of those things, again, where I was like,
(12:44):
well, how do you refresh a 100-year-old company and make it new?
That's, you know, so not something you encounter every day. I think you should
do a podcast on that, Douglas, because I'd listen.
That definitely sounds like a learning opportunity to me. Yeah,
it was a lot of fun, a lot of fun.
But, I mean, that's one of the things I love about this job,
(13:04):
right, is exploring that ambiguity,
that new ground, and kind of breaking the mold as I think our industry and profession
is at a maturation point and we're growing and expanding and I think we're evolving into new areas.
Something I wanted to talk about and I was thinking, I don't know,
maybe we can merge it together, but was a kind of top three tips type of thing.
(13:26):
And I was originally thinking, what would your top three tips be if someone
was setting up a change management office or they were just bringing in that
kind of change capability to their organization?
But i'm wondering if we expand it slightly as well to just tips that you would
give to lead change as well because i think they do go together in terms of
building that capability.
This was inspired by the way by your post on the lego
(13:49):
change management office which i loved that was a lot of fun like i was surprised
at the response but people love legos and i'm one of them so i have children
and over the christmas break recently they put they took all their legos and
merged them into like one giant universe of something.
It's like a hodgepodge of like Jazz Club, Harry Potter, you know,
(14:11):
all the different things.
And they've got this big, huge world they created up there. Love it.
Sorry, today purged. Thanks.
Okay, yeah. The interesting thing about that Lego post was that I think what
it does is it actually creates some fun around it, but it also creates a vision, right?
About how to create a center of excellence.
And it kind of got a really strong reaction to, yeah, I really like this,
(14:34):
or I really want this, right?
And I think a lot of times when people think of center of excellence,
they're trying to understand like, you know, there's always that question,
where does change management fit? Is it in HR?
Is it in IT? Or where is it?
And I think we should have like a strategy office at an organization.
And that strategy office should be a blend of different methodologies and skills
(14:55):
together, so that we can ultimately achieve whatever the company's objectives
are and steer and navigate those unexpected and the expected things.
When you're setting it up, number one, you got to have a vision.
Number two, if you're going to have a vision, then you got to have a charter.
You know, why are we here? What's our purpose? Who we serve?
Those kind of fundamentals.
(15:15):
Because what I found through experience when I've set up centers of excellence
is that oftentimes, you know, there's a company that has thousands of employees,
maybe, you know, all over the world, globally spread out.
And there's typically like maybe two to six of you or something. thing.
How do you two to six people manage change across thousands of people across the entire globe?
(15:39):
You know, the numbers and the math don't always work out too well there.
So you have to be able to figure out a strategy and a structure and a plan to
be able to have an intake process to educate them and teach them on these concepts,
but also be involved at the right levels. So I guess that's tip number two.
And tip number three is draw upon the people side of change.
(16:02):
I know that sounds stereotypical or commonly said all the time in change management,
but more than ever, I believe that skill sets and leadership need more focus
on the people side of change, the power skills,
if you will, that are often historically called the soft skills.
I think we're at an evolutionary point right now where those type of skills
(16:27):
and that focus and those talents are really what's going to accelerate organizations
and people forward into the future, even today. I like those.
I do like those. And it kind of drives me back into something Pete and I have
talked a lot about over the last couple of years is that the combination of
the skills needed to be a product owner,
combining that with change management actually really does start to evolve the thinking on how we.
(16:53):
Deliver that cluster of changes not just people technology
or process or culture but bringing them together if you
start off with your vision as you would a product and
you work your way down through your your stories which is your
charter and then you build your way through into your approach your cadences
and your mechanisms this is a really good good good starting point of three
tips i think it was yeah i like something i'm just reflecting on i found this
(17:17):
for your second point in terms of capacity management and how do you actually
prioritize and so on this everywhere Everywhere I've worked so far,
I've always tried to get to the point of having a service offering for like,
you know, your platinum,
your gold and your silver standard that you give out to people.
Chris, you were one of the people that came up with that.
But the challenge I've always had, and actually not just as a change manager
(17:38):
also, but it's ultimately, you know, you can try and tell someone that you're
only giving them silver service and they should go away.
But if they've got the money and they've got the ear
of the chief exec and and it's something they want to do
and it does have an impact on people you kind of have to listen to
them and you have to do it yeah but i want to put some context in there
that we had a small team we couldn't do everything for everybody
(17:58):
i don't know it wasn't it wasn't just that team no i found
it actually almost every team i've worked with has tried to take
that model but the reality of doing it is
always a bit different it is it is tough a lot of
it comes down though to the the the impact and
the the benefit that comes from it so if you go output outcome benefit you
know how much and how much resource you've got to deliver you
(18:18):
know a portfolio of 30 projects or or you know a
number of projects and programs i do still think you have to have a point which
says you're going to get guidance and that's pretty much all we can get because
over here is this mahima for the finance change which is supposed to return
two billion pounds of benefit and if i'm given my yeah i'm going to attract
five new customers or 10 billion pounds of benefit i'm going to get told off
(18:39):
if i send and you're over there kind of approach.
I could be wrong in that thinking type, just to correct me. No,
I think you're both spot on in both comments. I mean...
It's not just a change management thing. It's not just a project management
thing, a scrum or product owner or whatever your role is.
We all have to figure out some kind of way to prioritize the responsibilities,
(19:02):
the objectives, the KPIs, OKRs, whatever you use.
We have to be able to figure out how are we going to prioritize them? What's number one?
What's number two? So I think that's a challenge that's not unique just to change
management, but everybody faces these days because there's demand 24-7,
365 for something to be done yesterday.
And the second thing is, to your point, I mean, somebody shared something interesting
(19:26):
with me the other day that I'd never, like I kind of knew, but I'd never heard it said.
And they said, you know, I'm a project manager. And another person said,
you know, I'm a scrum person or I'm an agile fan or whatever,
you know, context they were. And I said, ultimately, what we're trying to do is create change.
I was like, you know, I kind of stopped and thought about that for a minute.
(19:48):
And I was like, well, yeah, I guess you do create change in the sense that you're
an agent of change, creating some kind of product or output that is available to do something.
So, you know, we're all in this together in terms of what change is.
But the ability to lead change or manage change is different.
We're all trying to do the same thing. We're just trying to help each other. that
really stood kind of cut me off guard a little bit like
(20:11):
wait a minute you're you're an agent of team i never
thought about that agent of change sounds cooler than
change agent i think i first take that get a
brand team on that a couple of bits i wanted to
talk about first was to explain a little bit we've never
talked about the acmp on this podcast so i i
think we have talked about the change management institute so
(20:33):
you're you're our first guest that can kind of to give the pitch for what ACMP
does I wonder alongside that as well whether something we really wanted to get
into is to talk a bit about the cultural differences that you might see in the
US as well in terms of how people handle or go through change so take your pick.
CMI and ACMP are almost like one in the same it's just that CMI is really they
(20:57):
got their focus and their their basis and foundation is really in like Australia
Asia Pacific type area they've also so got some other areas in Europe and things like that,
but that's primarily where their core audience of focus is.
Ultimately we're looking to do kind of the same kind of thing almost.
ACMP stands for the Association of Change Management Professionals.
(21:20):
And it is the equivalent to like what project managers use with PMI,
Project Management Institute, or HR people use with SHRM, that kind of thing.
It's a professional body dedicated to the profession and the industry to to
lead the thought leadership.
The professionalism, the ethics, the standards, all of that as a place for professionals
(21:45):
who are interested or involved in that community.
And they want to have a place where they can come for conferences,
webinars, continuous learning, professional credentials, things like that.
And so that's what ACMP is. It's the global leader in change.
They've got chapters in places like in Africa, South Africa,
(22:07):
Ukraine, all over North America, Canada, Europe, all over the world and continues to grow.
And to be a part of that was an amazing, humbling, privileged experience that I had.
And, yeah, just to be able to see change, not just from a North American,
Canadian, U.S. perspective, but, you know, to see some people out there,
(22:29):
like, there's so much talent in our community around the world.
Especially, like, I never would have thought, but I learned very quickly,
Australia has a wealth of talent, a wealth of talent.
And that's, you know, that's where your friends from the last podcast came from,
with Flint Studios and everybody, Gilbert and Peter and everybody. everybody.
Europe, of course, has a wealth of talent as well.
(22:51):
I've learned so much from them. But I'm also learning from Africa and how they approach things.
And it's so fun and interesting.
I think that was so fun and interesting to be able to learn a new perspective,
a new cultural dynamic to bring to my toolkit, my tool belt.
And it just really helped me to connect with people on a better level.
(23:12):
So that's a little bit about what ACMP is. What's your role in ACNP?
So originally I got started here in my local state and we created a chapter
for ACNP here in my state.
And it's the only one here, still is. And then they annually,
they have like an annual election process where you can be part of the global board of directors.
(23:35):
And I thought, okay, I'll throw my hat in the ring. See what happens.
I never thought I had a chance.
I thought, you know, I'm one in a million. There's probably super talent and
superheroes out there that'll get it, right?
And I went through the process. And sure enough, they called me one day and,
hey, Doug, you know, this is so-and-so. And we want to congratulate you.
(23:59):
You've been elected by your global peers to be on the global board.
And I was like, oh, come on. Who is this?
Come on. And I hung up.
And she called me back, and I was like, no, I'm serious. I'm like, really? Me?
You know, it just floored me. And so you serve a three-year commitment on the board.
(24:23):
I just finished my third year. And during my second and third year,
I also was elected to the treasury role. role.
And now as I completed my board of directors election, we created something
new called the Council of Advisors. And what we're, it's brand new.
And what we're trying to do is bring together the historical legacy leaders
(24:45):
of ACMP and help to create something new that where people who are really experienced
or tenured in change management can really find value.
I think there's a lot of of growth in the industry right now.
A lot of people who are curious about change.
My friend calls it the change, curious being called up that.
(25:06):
And so there's a lot of them and there's a lot of people who are new to the profession.
And so we're, we're certainly seeing a lot of uptick in those audiences and
personas, but we have to make sure that we're continuing to develop and help
engage our tenured experience leaders along the way.
And that's what we're hoping to do is we're like a council of elders.
(25:27):
This i like it yeah it's got a lord of the rings feel to it it does sound really
good and the things you'd go to to get a new t-shirt and free pen i'm amazed
i know just think about that you walked around i'm part i'm on a council of
advisors the the elders or whatever you call it.
That would be pretty impressive, wouldn't it? Your LinkedIn profile would just explode.
(25:48):
It is pretty cool, though, to be fair. I remember when I was moving in different
parts of my career and ending up in change management, looking around,
there wasn't a lot of people to call upon to ask for help.
So especially like a collective as well, where you wouldn't just be asking one
people, you'd be asking a group that would be able to give you a variety of
opinions to chew over, rather than just accepting one route is better than the
(26:09):
other. It just didn't exist.
It still really in some ways doesn't now. Now, this is where the pod does help.
I know we've connected people that hadn't connected before just through listening
to guests and what have you. So you never know where these things lead.
But, yeah, I think they're a great initiative, that kind of founding council. Yeah, it's great.
Yeah, I mean, our minds are better when we're together and we combine all that experience.
(26:29):
Think about how much we can help the future leaders of change or those big hairy
rocks that we're all facing.
You know, here's some different perspectives and ideas that we've experienced
here, some things we learned.
And the work i agree i mean we undertake
a set of training for a methodology of choice or whichever
one our company inflicts upon us and and that gives
(26:49):
us a set of guardrails i say many times but actually that gets
you so far and it's the the experience and
the the you know the wounds on your back they're the ones that tell you
where sometimes which is the better path to take and sometimes
you know it feels like that pathway might be slightly less likely
to cause you an injury if there's a group you can go and you know
pose your questions or or thoughts to tell us
(27:10):
a a bit about the states what's it like doing change there but
what do you see different elsewhere you know the interesting thing
i'll say about acmp that i really appreciate is that
they partner very closely with all the big names
in change management so you know the cotters the pro size and
and everybody like that so but the thing about the association that i really
appreciate is to a couple of things and i don't want to number them but number
(27:34):
one is their method agnostic So they don't subscribe to this is the way and
follow the checklist or,
you know, check the boxes or whatever, right?
They do provide a framework called the standard.
And it's built around, you know, the best practices, the standards of change management.
(27:58):
And it was created by people from all around the
world and as they did it together and then
what they did was they also got it certified through iso
which is if you're familiar with iso they
have a global standard for that so that's what
helps also certify for the testing and and the the information that you're asked
as well as the as well as the content so that's one thing i really loved about
(28:21):
it and that really applies universally because you know so many of us like you
said that's subscribed to a certain
methodology because that's what our company has chosen or whatever.
And so therefore you have to adapt to that one.
Being able to understand the fundamentals so that you can go from Cotter to
Luern to ProSci or whatever the different styles are that are out there.
(28:44):
I think that's ultimately what I appreciate about that.
The other thing I really appreciate about it is the code of ethics.
They have a code of ethics that applies to you as a change management professional.
And I think in today's world, that stands out a lot to me.
Simply, maybe it's a personal choice. choice, but in today's environment,
we see a lot of news or articles or social media posts and things where ethics
(29:10):
and decisions and choices and behaviors and actions and things are always in play.
And a code of ethics is something that applies to all of us,
regardless of what methodology we subscribe to.
And I think that I'm getting to your culture question here now. So here it comes.
So when you're in Turkey or whether you're in,
(29:32):
let's say, Central or South America or perhaps the UK or where have you,
knowing that you have those and you have people from all over the world come
together to share information that you can,
you know, this is my tribe, this is my people.
And like you said before, I can ask questions and get answers.
I can continuously learn by attending webinars, by presenting and sharing information,
(29:57):
or joining their social platform of different information.
I think that's how I learned so much about the culture was because you would
see their challenges or where they were.
I'll give you a personal experience, and I'm not going to say her name,
but she knows who she is, but she's in the Ukraine. And she started a chapter
(30:18):
just before the war there.
And think about what type of change she's going through as she's trying to lead
change during the last two years.
I think it's been two years now in Ukraine. And that's totally different than...
You know, just the traditional change management that we think of when we think
of change management, because what I came to know was there were,
(30:41):
there's a different type of change that people were going through.
They were going through like, you know, almost like the, the peer Maslow's pyramid.
Like I need the most fundamental thing.
How can people help me emotionally? How can people help my family? What do they do?
It's kind of like coaching, but, but there's a
group of professionals out there who deal with like
(31:03):
you've gone through some kind of life-changing event
or some kind of emergency type
of situation and the trauma that's the one i'm looking for sorry trauma coaching
and they often encounter change with people yeah it's on the people right but
it's not it's not change management like we think but it's definitely influencing
(31:25):
how people go go through change,
help me get through this change and the emotions and the outcomes of what I've been through.
That was an amazing story to watch her go through, but also try and strengthen
her people that way, but also any resources we could do to connect and network people with her.
(31:45):
It was an amazing experience to be able to watch her go
through that and just how strong of a person she was and help
people lead through change individually but also
professionally as a business and as
a chapter and to really evolve that there
that was she she's amazing that was
one opportunity i had to learn about culture and change
(32:07):
what do you think makes change are there any things you can pick out that are
specific to the u.s though or things that we might find a bit bit different
i would say in the u.s we're probably more microwavable okay i don't know but
like instant like i gotta have it now and if i have to wait 30 seconds to get my whatever.
(32:27):
That's too long i should have had it like yesterday and we've gotten so i don't know.
Digitalized and so almost immune
to the fact that i can do this like that quick you know the the whole,
I'm still amazed by the fax machine, personally. I can send a fax and a picture
(32:50):
of a fax to somebody anywhere in the world. But we kind of take that for granted, right?
And I think here in America, we take a lot of those things for granted.
And I think that we're so built up on speed and what's next.
And I've got to achieve my next goal and objective.
And, you know, it's just keep going, keep going, keep going, keep going.
(33:11):
And as I watch other parts of the world, I'm like, why is that country ranked,
quote-unquote, the happiest place on earth or the country with the most joy
or whatever it is that they experience in life?
As I study them, it's a totally different mindset.
It's a totally different culture, totally different set of values and perspectives.
(33:35):
And I think it's a totally different pace culture-wise.
I think we pick up on that yeah in
just bits you listen to in media and politics
and and so on in that it's very
especially in the tech space it's very like we
need to be more like silicon valley we need to be agile we need to be doing
(33:56):
things fast we've got to do it now so yeah i can imagine from what you're saying
that living in that yeah i mean not in silicon valley but in in that kind of
culture must be quite jarring from a change perspective though It can be.
I actually did work in Silicon Valley and where I work, we have something,
the Silicon Valley slogan or nickname, I guess you could say,
(34:19):
it's kind of expanded to different parts of the US, but it has its own unique.
So like where I live, there's a lot of mountains and skiing, that kind of thing.
So there's Silicon Slopes and there's a lot of technology companies here.
And then there's Silicon this and Silicon S and other parts of America too, right?
Because Silicon Slopes is beginning to be distributed and remote and all that
(34:42):
kind of stuff. Because companies go to different places.
I just want to go back to that culture thing because something else that just
popped in my head was over the last few years, as I was watching the prime minister
of New Zealand, watching her go what she went through.
And then here in the States, I'm watching our leadership. And I'm like, what did...
(35:03):
Bipolar approach is this you know and from
such different angles and what's
important to the leader and how they helped their
people collectively go through something or not
go through something collectively i think that
that's another example that stood out to me as well and one of
(35:23):
the things i pick up over here douglas is something that's caught my eye
over the last couple years in terms of a cultural thing and i don't know where it reflects
across the world because i haven't asked anybody else but this obsession
with resistance before you've even you know formed your
plan for change it's it's uh it's everywhere you
go everyone's like that's not gonna you won't be able to do that you know they're gonna.
Fight you back on that you have to stand back you'll have to let
(35:43):
them do themselves i'm kind of like we haven't even really got to the
nub of you know going right back to the vision of what the change is
let alone what the plan of even using ad card would be to
to build up to remove the resistance but the
obsession with resistance i see over over over here particularly
through projects i've either worked on or spoken
to people about it seems to be really high
(36:04):
in terms of a cultural fear and i think it is a fear i
don't think that i think it is somewhat unfounded i think most employees you
know state in the obvious here but if
they understand the reason for the change they're more likely to accept i mean looking at
one of your posts i love the one where the road splits off and the road
wheels off in one direction and the other road is dead straight
but a dead straight road was the one that we've got rid of you know but i
(36:24):
think that that's that's just fear that's fear
mongering isn't it at the very beginning by people who are you know
crystallizing myths by telling them that they'll never like it
so then they believe they'll never like it and then that's it we're addicted
to never liking it you know a long way to say the same thing i guess but yeah
that's something i don't know i don't know whether you find the same over there
because the the demand for something quicker means you don't get so much time
(36:46):
to have resistance i don't know i'm curious i have seen a lot more posts on.
Resistance, just the topic in general.
And when I see those, I think of a couple of things in response.
Number one is, why is that?
I've tried to understand. And what I try to do is step away from change management
and look at it from a bigger picture.
(37:07):
And I think what we're facing today societally, especially here in the States,
is more back to what we said before, A lot of labeling, a lot of stereotyping, a lot of grouping,
because as humans, we tend to, you know, for example, you know,
somebody might be seeing or watching this podcast and go, oh,
(37:28):
well, there's two people with glasses.
Obviously, the third one needs glasses or doesn't know about the value of glasses.
So probably these people here, you know, that kind of thing.
So we see a lot of fractionalism, if that's the right word. A lot of people
trying to find their group, but they end up splitting into smaller and smaller
entities to try and be with their groups.
(37:49):
And I think that's part of the resistance mindset that we're seeing is like, oh, well, that's not us.
I'm not in that group. So therefore, you know, it's us versus them or that kind of thing.
That's one thing i think that's kind of a catalyst to
a lot of the hyperbole around change resistance
i think we contribute to that sometimes so because some
(38:10):
part of what we do and you know that stakeholder planning or or assigning people
into group does that yeah we do we do but it's typically based on like you know
organizational role region the the the characteristics and the the attributes of the company,
not so much the demographics of the people, more, I guess you could say.
(38:33):
And I do agree with you that sometimes as change leaders,
we tend to maybe shoot ourselves in the foot a little bit by using the wrong
words like, you know, change fatigue or change management sometimes is a bit of a oxymoron.
You know, there's lots of words that, you know, change fails 70% of the time
is something Something we often read even though it's not a true factor.
(38:59):
So, you know, those kinds of things that we're saying about ourselves can also hurt us as well.
I think we need to evaluate our own language, our own mindsets and thinking
as we lead change and think about, am I reflecting what I'm teaching?
Am I teaching, you know, doing what I'm preaching? Walking the walk.
The second thing that comes to my mind is like when I see all those articles
(39:19):
on resistance, it's always about you got to overcome it. You got to beat it. You got to win it.
And it's like us versus them. And I don't think that's what it should be.
I think it should be understand it.
Because if you don't understand that resistance, then you don't truly fully
understand the change as well as you should. Spot on.
Absolutely agree. If you are trying to overcome resistance, that means you're trying to win.
(39:45):
So you're right, they're wrong. You win, they lose.
And that's not what we should be doing. I say this on other things,
Douglas, we say about taking therapy at the very beginning of a change to understand
what it is to help listen to the fears right up front.
Because if you've got that right up front, you don't need to worry about the
resistance because you'll build your change plan around what their fears are
(40:05):
early on, right? Yeah, yeah.
And oftentimes as change managers, we do wear therapy hats.
So there's lots of things we do, right?
But I think it's about understanding it, embracing it.
And if you do that then you're building
the trust and you're gaining the voice you're hearing
the voice and you're gaining their confidence rather than
(40:26):
coming to the table at the end and they're like hey wait a minute or you know
i don't know anything about this or you know disrupting your whole effort that
you put in the time and the money and the budget and the sweat and the tears
and the blood and you got to embrace it don't don't look at it as like you know.
Darth Vader versus Luke Skywalker kind of thing. That's the soundbite, Pete.
(40:48):
That's the soundbite. I was thinking of summing a bit more. You probably won't
know who the Borg are or what Doctor Who is, or perhaps that's too British.
I don't know. You do? Okay, yeah. No, it's that assimilation mindset of the
Borg. Maybe that's more where we need to go.
Yeah, maybe that resonates more. There's one last question we'd like to finish on,
(41:10):
which is apparently quite a cultural distinguisher
we found last week with the aussies and it's
uh it's quite mundane i think but it's
just what if you could tell us what your favorite biscuit is and
we don't mean potatoes and gravy i learned this
the other day yeah cookies yeah i learned the other
day biscuits can be like a potato covered in gravy can't it
(41:32):
that's that's an american thing biscuits and gravy i
wasn't even gonna respond with that that's that's yeah
that's a totally different thing i just thought i just
thought of what my favorite biscuit is okay so this is when i
was a little child my grandmother would make
this cookie and i was basically it was kind of like
peanut it was dough but it was it had some
peanut butter flavor to it a little bit and a
(41:55):
little bit of sugar on top and then you'd warm
it up and then in the middle you'd put like a hershey kiss oh
nice have you heard of those yep yep and they were called kisses i
don't know know but when they were warm they would
just go in your mouth and they would just like melt and they
were so good that combination of peanut butter and chocolate
of course and just a hint of a little bit
(42:17):
of sugar on top that's probably my favorite cookie because of my childhood that
sounds way better than anything we've talked about it's been super great having
you and i know we'll do this again i've got a great idea about the next one
actually involving you doug so we'll talk offline about that but thank you so.
Much for joining us good to meet you as well thank you thank you very much.
Music.
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