April 1, 2024 • 37 mins
Join us as we speak to Thanes Chelliah, a change expert from Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia with experience working in multiple countries and cultures in Asia. Thanes talks about the importance of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) in change management, and its profound influence on project outcomes. We discuss the importance of creating awareness about DEI and its integral role in employee engagement and retention.
For Thanes, fostering an environment where every individual feels significant and connected to the project encourages better contributions and results.
We also talk about the crucial role training plays in facilitating change within organisations, the common challenge of achieving and demonstrating the desired Return on Investment (ROI), and the role Change Managers have in driving genuine transformation.
Managing all of this in different countries, even within the same continent, needs a delicate understanding of culture mixed across local, organisational and national boundaries. Thanes shares her tips on how to deliver training and change while working in this way, whether that's people watching or watching the language you use.
Listen to this episode to unravel the journey of a proactive learner managing cultural transitions across Asia and gain actionable advice for navigating unfamiliar cultural landscapes effectively.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Music.
(00:07):
Welcome to Supercharged, the change and comms podcast. We've been delving into
change and comms across the globe.
And in this episode, we feature Tanez Cheli, a true global change manager.
Tanez is loaded with change management credentials, and we're looking forward
to hearing more about change and cultures in many of the countries that Tanez
has worked in. So welcome, Tanez.
It's so great to meet you. Hi, Chris. How are you? Great to meet you too.
(00:27):
And Pete, as always, in Barcelona, drought still on? Yeah, it is raining though.
So, you know, a bit of water.
It's always good here. Bit of water. Makes you feel like you're back in Britain.
It's raining, raining and raining.
Yeah, I was working with people all across the UK yesterday and everybody was
saying it was raining wherever they were in the UK.
So glad to know everything's still normal back home.
(00:47):
Tanis, it's great to meet you. And what time is it where you are, just for our reference?
It's about 8.10pm. Thank you for giving up your Friday evening to talk to us.
Us. So we wanted to start off by talking a little bit because we were put in
touch with you by Doug Florey, who we're doing an episode with,
who's based in Utah in the USA.
(01:08):
And I think if I'm correct, that you would have met each other or worked with
each other a bit through the Association of Change Management Professionals.
First, I hope that's right. But I wondered if you could tell us a bit about
what that is and what your experience has been with it.
Before that, let me just tell you a little bit about me so that you know what
is my background. is going to be like.
So I'm originated from Malaysia, an Asian country. We realized the country itself has the word Asia.
(01:34):
And then what I do, I basically, I'm an advocate of change.
And the goal of my work or my career, it's about bringing change to my country
as well as Asian, because it's still at the very level where there's so much of opportunity.
So this is what that I I dive in and I really want to do it.
(01:54):
Okay, so that's a little bit of my background.
Now, ACMP is a great platform. Why?
Simple reason, because it brings in people across the global,
which creates a platform where you can actually share not only your knowledge,
but basically your experience as well in terms of understanding people. That's the key, right?
(02:15):
Now, I can be from Malaysia and imagine in a situation where I need to actually
drive life change in another country, and I have no idea how is it going to be like.
So this platform gives you the excellent opportunity to communicate with the
experts around the world who actually is there to share their knowledge in terms
of what they do, how they do it, what are the methodologies they use.
(02:39):
And additionally, it is the, even more what I find important is the experience.
And I can get knowledge anywhere. I mean, with this tech world today, I can just have to.
Play with my fingers. I just have to key in anything and I'm there. There you go.
And with AI, I think knowledge is not an issue. But what you may not find in
AI is the experience, especially people experience.
(03:02):
And that is very, very essential for today's world because without experience
for you to drive change that involves people, it becomes very crucial. show.
And so that's why I find ACMP, it has given me that kind of opportunity where
I go in, you know, I can actually be myself.
I can share my perspective from the Asian level.
(03:25):
And additionally, one of the
key things that I was working on when I was with ACMP was in terms of DEI.
So DEI is very close to me, diversity, equity, inclusion.
So that is something that I went deeper into it.
And there was one part where I was leading a team in terms of creating a standard
(03:46):
for DEI and what you should do in terms of popularizing it and making it something
strong for people to apply and adapt to every organization.
So that is something that I brought it back to my country, which I find that
this is one thing that a country really needs.
I mean, yes, change is important, but in order to actually make change successful,
(04:11):
now DEI plays a very crucial role. Yeah, I agree.
So for me, ACMP have given me that kind of opportunity where there's a lot of
lessons and there's a lot of, as I say, experience from people,
which actually that has helped me in my career as well.
We were talking to Doug about the same thing. We were confused for a while because we call it EDI.
(04:32):
I thought it was something completely different. but so what's
it gonna say how long have you been involved with ACMP or how did that kind
of start all right I started in year 2021 so
that was the during the COVID years that when we all actually went into the
remote so that's when I started and then I went on until last year then I took
(04:53):
a short break and then I went back in as a council of advisor as a passport
of members so I'm still that.
And as and when I could contribute, yes, I do that.
So that has been, as I said, that has actually given me a solid path because I.
Can you imagine a scenario where you are in your country, but you're bringing
(05:14):
the whole world to your country in terms of experience where people never heard about that?
So that is the one thing that I find that it gives me an advantage because I
have that and I can share what other people are doing and where others may not
have that opportunity to do so. So that makes me stand out.
Yes, it does. And Taz, you said DEI, so diversity, equity, and inclusion plays a crucial role.
(05:40):
What are the things that you've taken back to the organizations and the countries
in which you work on that have come out of that broader understanding of DEI and change?
What's the biggest interventions or cultural changes you've picked up and taken away?
The first step that I actually did is creating that event as what is DEI,
(06:00):
because many of them took it very lightly. Because we know, like,
for example, I came from a country where it's multicultural.
So when you talk about diversity, yes, it's pretty common, you know,
what is diversity means in terms of cultural terms.
But what they fail to understand is what is the impact it has in the organization growth.
So the first step that I took in terms of the organization when I worked with
(06:24):
multiple projects is that creating that awareness is that how much of impact
that it has on your your outcome when you're trying to deliver a project.
Because if you don't actually focus on all those things, people who come from
a diverse area might feel that they are not being, they are not actually playing
(06:46):
importance in the role of the project or bringing out an outcome.
So they feel that we are actually giving more attention to the project than
the people who are impacted in the project.
So that's when the change becomes difficult. So a small thing as creating awareness,
and I realized that made an excellent difference because people start recognizing it.
(07:07):
And in every engagement, in every activity, in every communication,
the thought of diversity was still running in their mind.
So that made them be aware that, okay, I need to ensure that whatever I do,
I need to bring that into that picture of my work. Now, same goes to equity.
Now, when it comes to equity, again, you have this culture whereby there are
(07:29):
different set of people from different culture and whether they're having the
right amount of opportunity.
So we think as long as you are an employee of the organization,
we make the assumption that everyone gets an equal opportunity.
But in the actual scenario, that doesn't work.
So how do we actually measure that? How do we ensure that whatever we are doing,
(07:53):
that people are actually getting an equal opportunity?
So there have to be some level of measurement put in place so that at the end
of the day, your action represents each and every individual in the organization,
but not as a whole, as a group.
I'm not calling it as, oh, every stakeholder note has been considered,
(08:13):
but I'm actually going to the very lowest level of the individuals to ensure that they have a voice.
So the voice becomes very important here. I often find when I'm involved in
a project that we might have something that we'd check or it'd be like some
kind of form that people have to fill in to say, have you considered equality, diversity?
Is it, have you considered the impact of it? Tick, tick, tick.
(08:37):
But that even getting people to look at
the form or engage with that is quite difficult and often
i don't know i'm not sure what it is but maybe
you know perhaps a project manager might think oh this project's not
really going to have that kind of impact we'll just carry on that's for someone
else to do i'm ignoring that i just wondered if those were the types of things
that you saw as well and if you had any tips on you know on avoiding that or
(09:03):
getting people to engage All right. I'm just going to share this.
The method you use to actually measure this, you've got to be careful because
in my country, the measurement of a survey is one of the worst methods.
Nobody is going to give you a genuine answer. So if you're going to use the
method of survey based on the country and based on the culture,
if the method is not good, the outcome is not going to be good.
(09:25):
So the method that I use is I ensure that I go down to the ground.
For me, the ground zero is very important place. So when you go to the ground
zero, you engage with the people, you make them feel every impacted individual are important.
If they don't have that feeling, then eventually they are just a member in whatever
(09:47):
deliverables that you're doing, but they are not a contributing member towards the deliverable.
That's what I find and that's what I'm working on, even with the current project
that I'm doing. And I'm equally implying that because I want to ensure that
every individual who is impacted in it, they truly understand what we are trying to do.
(10:07):
Because at the end of the day, they're going to ask you just one question.
You can do hundreds of projects, but what is it in for me?
So now I need to bring that big project to a very tiny, tiny level to the individual
level and tell them, this is why it's important for you.
So this is where I need to bring them inside.
(10:29):
So in some very practical terms then, applying EDI into change management,
you take it just to basically into the training, into the classroom. room.
It's the interventions we apply to ensure those who are slightly neurodiverse
or have a preferred training or communication style are considered just as part of your plan.
It's a very simple step, right? You don't have to go into some great theoretical
(10:53):
or dangerous territory around academia.
It is just about making sure that the interventions we apply are considered
about people who might learn differently or might communicate differently or
might absorb information differently.
That's a very simple starting point. Would you agree, Tanaz? absolutely because
you must understand that people are already complicated
don't make things method become even
(11:13):
more complicated so i would not i would love
to apply a simple approach where it's
easy to reach them and it's even more easier for them to understand it for them
to actually deliver something the business benefit to that then thales is actually
you know can lead to improve staff retention as much as it can do to increased
engagement and buy into the company There's the benefits of just considering
(11:36):
these up front and early.
Don't just land directly to the individual, but it actually impacts the culture of the business.
Yes, absolutely right, Chris. You got that right. Because though my approach
is to every individual, but the unique value the organization is going to get
is the one that I'm looking for.
And this is where the organization actually progressed to a maturity level in
(11:58):
terms of dealing with changes.
Changes if it's not at the very basic down
level then at the end of the day if you won't
see organization progressing but what you will see
is they keep on adding projects after projects but
the real change does not take place the thing
around the eyes is people you just assume it's so it's about
(12:19):
like you know you're discussing whether it's a tick box exercise
or whether or not the organization actually responds to
these things because they can see the accumulation effect that occurs it's
it's the downstream benefits that come
from getting it right very early that you sometimes would
consider intangible because you wouldn't necessarily be able to draw them back in but
you know culturally it's it makes a it makes
(12:41):
a difference to attracting you know more people better people keeping
the right people and you know making future change stick tanis
i wondered if we could just talk a bit about your kind of experience delivering
change what what kind of projects or industries have you
worked in what kind of things have stood out for you in
your career history and what do you enjoy about change in terms
of industry i practically covered most of the industry ranging from manufacturing
(13:04):
oil and gas industry medical industries you know let me see best any kinds of
business i have at participants coming to the training from all perspective
in terms of the sectors and why do i enjoy it okay.
Can you imagine if you just go out to the street and you meet somebody and you
start talking about a change, what do you think the reaction of the people is going to be?
(13:27):
They're going to think that, what am I doing? What am I talking about?
So training for me is like a trailer before you're watching the actual movie.
You know, you get the pits and pieces of it. And then additionally,
what training has given me an opportunity is if you realize it doesn't matter
what kind of training that I'm doing, but whatever training that I'm doing,
(13:50):
whether it's related to system improvement or competency and skills or leadership,
everything involves a change, simple as that. But they don't see that.
The only thing they see is I'm attending a training and I'm gaining a particular
skill, but they don't see the changes they have to go through.
So this is where when I meet that people, it gives me that opportunity to actually
(14:12):
say that all the the trainings are good, but what you need to do is just one more additional step.
And that is the change that you got to manage in order to make sure your training
becomes even more effective.
So then suddenly they'll think about it. Oh, you mean I need to do one more
step and then this will be good?
(14:33):
Because most of the organization right now, biggest challenge they face is that
they could not get an ROI out of a training because they learn,
they go for two days training, three days training, but when they go back to the organization,
they are asking a question, why is it people are not applying what they have learned?
So this is the gap. The gap is we fail to manage the change that training is
(14:57):
bringing to the organization.
So that opportunity was given to me through the training while I opened their mind.
It's just like opening a locked door. The door has been locked for many years.
You know for the fact, change is in your mind, but nobody has opened that door
for many years and they have the training key.
You just go and unlock the door. You let them see
(15:20):
how much of impact impact that change can make in
everything that you do in the organization so that's
how powerful training has been in that sense so the
bit that you mentioned about return on investment then for the company
do you see that as something that you can support or help with and if so how
do you do that in terms of training yeah all right so what happens is like again
the moment i've conducted a training and then i'll open it up then it gives
(15:44):
me a path to actually go and talk to the management And this is where I'll bring them,
okay, let me show you how to make the training effectiveness and how to make
sure that training eventually bring the ROI to you.
And this is where I'll have another step where I create a coaching.
You know, in terms of change, what you need to do.
And then I'll create a plan for them. Okay, these are the things that additional
(16:06):
things that we need to do.
So that becomes an additional consultancy into that training part.
Part so you come in you give them the whole package
look here excellent you have opened the door
there are so many things behind the door now rewrite
now you want to arrange everything properly so that whatever was in the door
is you can visualize and you can apply it so this is what I do I give them the
(16:30):
training I come in I have the further conversation build up from the training
so so that they can see a bigger picture.
And from there, I give them a strategy, what they can actually apply and then execute.
And then this is where your ROI is going to be. So they'll see the whole process taking place.
(16:50):
It's not only about training. I say, okay, I have gained knowledge,
but what I'm going to do with the knowledge if I don't have the opportunity to apply it?
So most organization phases, they send many employees for training,
but they fail to give an opportunity to apply what they have learned.
I've just drawn something based on what you said. And then as I drew it,
(17:11):
you started kind of capturing the points. And it's really important because you're right.
Training is not the beginning. It's roughly the middle because you've
got to do all the other stuff up in the change first you know you're changing
back assessments your training needs your communications all those good kind
of therapy type things when the program or
project matures the technical training can then be deployed but that
like you say is just the trainer i love that it's a great great energy
(17:33):
i'm going to use it because actually post training you have
to give the time to apply that training and that your roi
really doesn't even start then in my mind because you the you're
giving some of the time to apply and practice what they've been
taught will provide wrap around support through super users
drop-ins all those good things but then after that that's
when they become masters of what they're doing and it's only when they
(17:53):
become masters can they start actually showing the business benefit the return
on the investment and the business benefit realization plans could
come into default and you could track and see against you know whatever products
or services you've tried to improve you'll see it but not until the the ability
to practice has been taken you can't just go from training to mastery it's not
going to happen it It wouldn't happen anywhere else. So why would we expect
(18:15):
it in the workplace in the training space?
And it's in the application bit, well, the training and the application bit
where the DEI stuff becomes super important.
Because if they haven't had the ability to participate, because we haven't put
interventions that accept whatever their learning requirements are,
then we can't expect to see the benefit later on.
(18:36):
Because they were never able to fully exploit the support and the training we
gave them. It's a clear journey, isn't it?
Absolute summary, Chris. Thank you very much for summarizing that.
Yes, you just got it out from my mind. That's exactly what I'm saying.
And if you realize there's a lot of money is being invested in training,
and then they keep sending people for training, but they don't actually see
(18:58):
what's supposed to happen after that.
What's the change management culture or maturity like in the job market there?
Are there lots of change managers or is it still something that's quite an evolving
profession and you get people that are interested and think maybe this is something
that I want to explore but they're doing other jobs at the moment?
All right okay to be very truthful change management is still at the very infant
(19:22):
level so they do have titles as change managers but their title if you look at the job description,
end up having project role instead of a change manager's role.
So that's commonly what I see. Or it is more related to just doing communications.
So they do not really understand that it goes beyond that. And it's a very powerful
(19:46):
position they are holding.
So they're not really taking that power yet. They have the title without a power to drive.
That's what's currently happening. So this is where I actually build that scope.
And I'll tell them, you are actually holding an excellent position.
Now go and grab the power so that you can actually drive and make the world to change.
(20:09):
So that's the excitement that I create. So now I do have the team that I'm developing
right now who comes and asks me
that, can I build my career over change management? And I say, absolutely.
There are so many jobs there. There's so many opportunities.
And additionally, can you just think what are the possible changes that you
can actually bring to an organization?
(20:30):
And your name is behind that change.
That is the part that actually drives them towards that.
I think it's hugely important as well, because when we were setting up the change
management function at the university, one of the key things I insisted upon
was that the change manager was not to be working for the project manager.
(20:51):
The change manager discipline is its own thing. It has to have its own independent
relationship with the sponsor or stakeholder,
stakeholder because otherwise you're you're never going to
be able to tell the truth back into those who are your your sros
or your senior sponsors because they'll hear the view that project or
the program manager will give which is a very different scenario
to the role we have project managers and programmers
(21:12):
are very good at protecting their scope and they'll protect
the scope of what their program delivers but the change management goes beyond the
scope of the project or the program because we have to ensure
that they're ready to accept the project to the program the the
project and program manager will not accept that the stuff that
we have to do to get the business ready is within their scope so we have
to have a separate relationship so you saying that it's just like yeah
(21:33):
on the money for me absolutely absolutely spot on
yeah and i always have that kind of
argument with the project managers you know where you know
i keep telling them you can do 100 projects a
year but if they are not ready to accept it
you can do another 100 for the the following year that's exactly right i
was just going to say times i'm looking at your linkedin i
(21:54):
do this when we go on all the pods because i think actually you can
get some really interesting points but when we say that we've been talking
to uh change managers across the world who've worked in different countries
you have actually worked in so many different countries from and i'm reading
these out right because i would never remember there's that many cambodia vietnam
brunei hong kong singapore indonesia muscat oman and obviously malaysia where
(22:16):
you're based i mean I mean, that's a list, isn't it?
I mean, that's like my dream travel list, let alone the places you've been lucky enough to work. But...
Have you, in those countries, do you notice a cultural difference in terms of
how change management is applied but also adopted? All right.
In those countries that I traveled and then what I realized is they apply change
(22:40):
management unconsciously, not consciously.
That's two different things. So I do things not realizing I'm actually driving
the change, but I'm doing it as just an action. action.
And since it's unconscious, people are not aware they need to produce a result.
When the unconsciousness becomes conscious action, then the awareness increases
(23:04):
and then the result increases as well.
So in those countries, right, what I realized is I've observed many cases where
people want people to change. Okay, simple thing.
What I want at the end of the day is I want every employee to be able to work
and produce what I expect them to produce. Simple as that.
It's a simple mathematic equation if you look at it.
(23:25):
But what happens is for that to achieve, there are so many challenges.
There are so many struggles to reach the result they're expecting too.
So they are actually doing many activities in order to achieve it.
So they do not know those activities they are trying to engage with them is
actually change management activities, but they're not conscious about it.
(23:46):
So when they are not conscious about it, they don't even have the awareness,
what is the outcome of the activities?
So that's why you don't see them achieving the result, but they get tired of
doing so many things in the process.
And they keep asking themselves, I'm doing everything.
Why is it not happening the way it's supposed to happen? So that's why,
(24:07):
you know, sometimes you have that opportunity to jump in and say,
I'm don't worry i'm here to help and let
me do it i like i like those types of projects as
well because it's kind of like they're quite pleased to see you they're quite
pleased just just take some help and say actually yeah just just point us in
a direction where perhaps we could just you know improve just maybe one or two
(24:28):
small things to have a bigger output because you know we've done this all and
we we can't train and teach everything so you just train and teach small things to make a
you know incremental improvements so I do like that when that happens it's it's
quite the I mean I can't even imagine what going in and doing that in in places
like in Vietnam and Oman must be like it it must be quite a positive experience
(24:49):
but maybe quite challenging too.
Yeah it's very challenging because though you're talking about Cambodia and
Vietnam which is actually Asia so when I went into the country I was pretty
comfortable thinking I'm an Asian shouldn't be a problem it'd be easy for for
me to actually manage this group of people.
But no, it does not happen that way.
Every word that I spoke positively sound negative to them. Why?
(25:13):
So that was the first shocking experience I had. Okay.
The cultural difference, the cultural difference, simple as that,
is the cultural differences.
So one of the main things that I've realized that though I'm an Asian,
I can't make this assumption every other Asian country is the same.
That I can actually just go and jump in and start doing what I've done it before in my own country.
(25:35):
But I have to start from the scratch where I need to understand who they are.
I need to study a little bit of their culture. I need to study their lifestyle.
Even lifestyle becomes a crucial, important thing for me. I need to know what
I can say, what I cannot say in their culture.
What are the words to use? So this is the first thing that I did.
So I need to add up the change first before I could actually drive it.
(25:59):
But once I'm able to do that and
that became much easier for me because I
start talking in their language even though it's English but
in their terms so you must understand
English is English but the words
in English represents different meaning based
on different cultures so that becomes crucial definitely
(26:20):
I can say that for someone living in a
different country and still using english is the the words that
people use change and you often reach
i think you sometimes you end up speaking a kind
of compromise or international version of english where where you
there's a third language completely and it means something else to anybody else
that's listening to it but yeah i was wondering though so because you said a
(26:41):
bit about needing to adapt to the lifestyle and trying to understand you know
what people's mindsets are and where they come from how do you do that because
it's quite difficult to do that on your own no i do a lot lot of research.
Now I have this habit, which I developed when I was young.
So what I used to do is I just sit at one corner in a public area and I watch
(27:02):
the behavior and pattern of people, you know, how they talk,
you know, how they behave.
And I realized that I can talk to you in one way and I'm the same person.
I can talk to Chris in a different manner.
Then I started analyzing that why people do that, because they are trying to
create an impression, different impression to different two sets of people.
(27:24):
So all those experience gave me that skill where when I communicate with someone,
the first thing is I look at their body language.
Are they reacting to my words or they are not reacting to my words?
I observe their eyes, I observe their hands, legs, movement,
any small movement will indicate to me the comfortability of them listening to what I say.
(27:50):
So if I realize they are a little bit uncomfortable, now that gives me a trigger, change.
Don't use this, use something else. So I've been doing that trial and error.
So every time I apply a method, then I'll write it down, I know I can use it
somewhere else in a different project.
I can see that writing stuff down is probably
one of your key strengths I mean you are you in your armory you
(28:11):
have more qualifications in this stuff than I think I've ever seen
offered in a course catalogue so you're you've got that theory so well versed
that you're actually applying the same methods that you've used to learn to
actually learn how others are behaving to you you know the materials and the
change interventions you apply it's um I mean it just if you want to have a
look look at Tanner's LinkedIn,
(28:32):
you'll see, I mean, that we have everything from ProSci, ITIL,
MBAs, training, Lean Six Sigma. I mean, I'm just jealous.
I think we can put you on a few of those, Chris. Yeah, you'd get a different
person come out, I think.
I don't want to ask you what's your favorite qualification or your favorite
certification, because I don't think that really means much.
(28:53):
But perhaps you do have a favorite. My favorite is ProSci certification because
I tell you why it became my favorite. The reason is I was in project for 14 years plus.
And every time I'm in the project, I always had that emptiness in me saying
that, okay, the project ended and by right, I should be happy.
But when I go down to the ground, people were not happy. So I keep asking myself,
(29:18):
what is it that I'm not doing right?
So that's when I came across ProSci. Then I realized, oh gosh,
that is a gap that I failed to close.
So that became a point where
it made the rest of my history more glaring
so whatever i had with prosci it became
more glaring that helped me out so that's why it became my favorite well prosci
(29:41):
offers a nice set of guardrails doesn't it in terms of a structure to follow
and it's using your other experiences that you can then deviate away depending
on the audience and the culture that you're trying to you know engage on a journey
so i think that's what i really like prosci i.
I've often said found the best use of it is the ability to
know when and which bits to use and not
(30:02):
necessarily thinking you have to use everything that's absolutely right
just um in terms of what we were talking about before if
Chris gets his dream job in I don't know let's say
he gets his dream job in Malaysia he's coming over
there to manage change on a project what would your
top tips be for him to land it
nicely assume he's done no research okay he's written
(30:23):
some stuff left there and i can see vina he's just landed all
right first of all i'm going to tell him welcome to the land of opportunities you
have a lot of opportunities here okay he's
just waiting for you to he's just waiting
for you to grab him that's it okay so that is the first thing
i'm going to welcome now i have four key values
that you must remember that when you are coming into asian country they're very
(30:48):
simple values but very strong values now the first value that i want to actually
talk about is for you to understand that a very common practice in most of the
Asian countries is hierarchy style administration.
So it's by ranking, it's by title.
So the name, as you say, pronouncing my name should be rightful, right?
(31:10):
But here, pronunciation of the right title even becomes very critical because
that's my first encounter.
So when I have a hierarchy system in in place, then I must ensure that every
level is identified according to their title, because those are the doors that
(31:31):
you need to open in sequence.
So if you do not know the hierarchy style, what will happen is you will go and
open the wrong door in the wrong sequence where you will create a wrong impression,
which is going to cause you a lot of struggle throughout the process.
That's key number value one. Now, key value two, it's high tolerance.
(31:55):
Why tolerance? Because things is going to be different than where you came from.
So you would have certain kind of standards, perspective.
So I would say, please come with the empty sheet because this is where you're
going to do a lot of coloring.
You're going to do a lot of painting. So make the painting beautiful.
But if your paper is already, there's a painting there, you can't add on anymore.
(32:17):
So keep it empty. So have that eye tolerance level because everything is going
to come in at a certain pace, which may not be aligned with your kind of pace.
So you've got to add that. Now, third value, very, very important,
acceptance, not judgmental.
There's a very thin line between acceptance and judgmental. And so when I go
(32:40):
and tell them, okay, the very first thing you must actually understand is the cultural differences.
So people say, oh, no worries. I understand. I have studied it.
I have done my research in terms of the culture.
I'm very good at it. So we tell them, okay, so you got to learn to accept it.
But in the name of acceptance, they end up making a judgment out of it.
(33:00):
So that could be very crucial. So very thin line between acceptance and judgment.
Again we are playing with words so that's
how we're going to so that comes to the falling point is sensitivity
beliefs cultural sensitivity now just to give you a picture when you talk about
culture let me give you the whole picture of culture so you're going to a country
(33:21):
so level one is country culture right level two is between urban and rural culture
right level three Three,
organization culture, right?
Level four, individual culture. I really like that. Yeah, that makes complete sense.
So in that sense, right? So every approach that you are going to implement,
(33:46):
it's based on the culture systems that you got to be aware of.
So that's why I say that acceptance, but not judgmental.
So you got to be very careful in that. And the final thing, which is very,
very crucial is respect.
Very crucial. Now, this is what I have gone through it myself.
Sometimes you think you know it all or you think that you're an expert and then
(34:09):
you go into the organization, you want to do this, you want to do that.
You know, you have so many ideas in place, you know, you're all geared up,
you just want to implement something.
But in that process, we forget to give the respect,
the due respect to the stakeholders because for them,
they feel that, hey look here i know my organization i've
been sitting here for years i've been holding this title i know
(34:32):
what i'm doing so especially in a
hierarchy based system now respect becomes very
very crucial so i want to make sure whatever that i do
i bring them up i boost
them up so i put them in front
of me instead of behind me so that's
the image i create you're giving me some useful tips for the UK I think and
(34:54):
the back picture yeah I think actually a lot of what you said there is it very
applicable to maybe even just changing a job in a new organization yeah they're
really good just kind of sensible it's a sensible mindset isn't it I think they're.
Really applicable just to changing culture definitely
i love the observation in a public space that you referenced earlier i
(35:16):
could see how that can help with the sensitivities point you
made but even so i think even if you were just to change it from significant
company to company or industry to industry those things are actually they're
applicable to everything yeah but the only thing what happens is that people
forget that to fly yes we need to wrap up because we've We've had a really good
(35:38):
chat, actually, I think.
And I'm really looking forward to getting back through and listening to this
because I'm sure there's a lot I can learn that I need to write down.
Like Chris has been, I haven't got my pen and paper with me.
There is one final question.
It's kind of a cultural question, but we ask it to every guest.
And just it's always a surprise.
And I have to apologize because when we've been speaking to people in the UK
(36:01):
or Europe, this has made a lot more sense.
But when we ask people, what is your favorite biscuit?
Then sometimes we found recently people don't quite understand what biscuits
are. I think our American friend thought they were something to put in gravy.
So I'm interested to see how you answer the question anyway.
So what is your favorite biscuit? My favorite biscuit is butter cookies.
(36:22):
Oh, perfect. Okay. Butter cookies. We can go for those.
Believe me, I went to UK, I went to Harrods. The first thing that I grab is,
what kind of butter cookies do you have?
That's the very first thing I did. you know so my basket was literally
full of different type of butter cookies originating from
different states and different countries that's amazing
and a good choice i'm happy with these that's a
(36:44):
good choice because they go so well with tea or coffee absolutely right
um tell us thank you for me for your time especially
as it's your friday evening your weekend i assume as i've made
a cultural assumption there actually because of course in in in
dubai of course the weekend isn't on a friday is it it's a
sunday and a monday so i shouldn't have made that assumption anyway thank you
for giving up your friday no worries because i'm kind of used to the u.s time
(37:07):
and uk time as well thank you i do deal with people from there so i'm pretty
uh comfortable with this time thank you so much for giving up your time to do
this thank you very much for giving me the opportunity as well i really appreciate that.
Music.
Music.
(00:07):
Welcome to Supercharged, the change and comms podcast. We've been delving into
change and comms across the globe.
And in this episode, we feature Tanez Cheli, a true global change manager.
Tanez is loaded with change management credentials, and we're looking forward
to hearing more about change and cultures in many of the countries that Tanez
has worked in. So welcome, Tanez.
It's so great to meet you. Hi, Chris. How are you? Great to meet you too.
(00:27):
And Pete, as always, in Barcelona, drought still on? Yeah, it is raining though.
So, you know, a bit of water.
It's always good here. Bit of water. Makes you feel like you're back in Britain.
It's raining, raining and raining.
Yeah, I was working with people all across the UK yesterday and everybody was
saying it was raining wherever they were in the UK.
So glad to know everything's still normal back home.
(00:47):
Tanis, it's great to meet you. And what time is it where you are, just for our reference?
It's about 8.10pm. Thank you for giving up your Friday evening to talk to us.
Us. So we wanted to start off by talking a little bit because we were put in
touch with you by Doug Florey, who we're doing an episode with,
who's based in Utah in the USA.
(01:08):
And I think if I'm correct, that you would have met each other or worked with
each other a bit through the Association of Change Management Professionals.
First, I hope that's right. But I wondered if you could tell us a bit about
what that is and what your experience has been with it.
Before that, let me just tell you a little bit about me so that you know what
is my background. is going to be like.
So I'm originated from Malaysia, an Asian country. We realized the country itself has the word Asia.
(01:34):
And then what I do, I basically, I'm an advocate of change.
And the goal of my work or my career, it's about bringing change to my country
as well as Asian, because it's still at the very level where there's so much of opportunity.
So this is what that I I dive in and I really want to do it.
(01:54):
Okay, so that's a little bit of my background.
Now, ACMP is a great platform. Why?
Simple reason, because it brings in people across the global,
which creates a platform where you can actually share not only your knowledge,
but basically your experience as well in terms of understanding people. That's the key, right?
(02:15):
Now, I can be from Malaysia and imagine in a situation where I need to actually
drive life change in another country, and I have no idea how is it going to be like.
So this platform gives you the excellent opportunity to communicate with the
experts around the world who actually is there to share their knowledge in terms
of what they do, how they do it, what are the methodologies they use.
(02:39):
And additionally, it is the, even more what I find important is the experience.
And I can get knowledge anywhere. I mean, with this tech world today, I can just have to.
Play with my fingers. I just have to key in anything and I'm there. There you go.
And with AI, I think knowledge is not an issue. But what you may not find in
AI is the experience, especially people experience.
(03:02):
And that is very, very essential for today's world because without experience
for you to drive change that involves people, it becomes very crucial. show.
And so that's why I find ACMP, it has given me that kind of opportunity where
I go in, you know, I can actually be myself.
I can share my perspective from the Asian level.
(03:25):
And additionally, one of the
key things that I was working on when I was with ACMP was in terms of DEI.
So DEI is very close to me, diversity, equity, inclusion.
So that is something that I went deeper into it.
And there was one part where I was leading a team in terms of creating a standard
(03:46):
for DEI and what you should do in terms of popularizing it and making it something
strong for people to apply and adapt to every organization.
So that is something that I brought it back to my country, which I find that
this is one thing that a country really needs.
I mean, yes, change is important, but in order to actually make change successful,
(04:11):
now DEI plays a very crucial role. Yeah, I agree.
So for me, ACMP have given me that kind of opportunity where there's a lot of
lessons and there's a lot of, as I say, experience from people,
which actually that has helped me in my career as well.
We were talking to Doug about the same thing. We were confused for a while because we call it EDI.
(04:32):
I thought it was something completely different. but so what's
it gonna say how long have you been involved with ACMP or how did that kind
of start all right I started in year 2021 so
that was the during the COVID years that when we all actually went into the
remote so that's when I started and then I went on until last year then I took
(04:53):
a short break and then I went back in as a council of advisor as a passport
of members so I'm still that.
And as and when I could contribute, yes, I do that.
So that has been, as I said, that has actually given me a solid path because I.
Can you imagine a scenario where you are in your country, but you're bringing
(05:14):
the whole world to your country in terms of experience where people never heard about that?
So that is the one thing that I find that it gives me an advantage because I
have that and I can share what other people are doing and where others may not
have that opportunity to do so. So that makes me stand out.
Yes, it does. And Taz, you said DEI, so diversity, equity, and inclusion plays a crucial role.
(05:40):
What are the things that you've taken back to the organizations and the countries
in which you work on that have come out of that broader understanding of DEI and change?
What's the biggest interventions or cultural changes you've picked up and taken away?
The first step that I actually did is creating that event as what is DEI,
(06:00):
because many of them took it very lightly. Because we know, like,
for example, I came from a country where it's multicultural.
So when you talk about diversity, yes, it's pretty common, you know,
what is diversity means in terms of cultural terms.
But what they fail to understand is what is the impact it has in the organization growth.
So the first step that I took in terms of the organization when I worked with
(06:24):
multiple projects is that creating that awareness is that how much of impact
that it has on your your outcome when you're trying to deliver a project.
Because if you don't actually focus on all those things, people who come from
a diverse area might feel that they are not being, they are not actually playing
(06:46):
importance in the role of the project or bringing out an outcome.
So they feel that we are actually giving more attention to the project than
the people who are impacted in the project.
So that's when the change becomes difficult. So a small thing as creating awareness,
and I realized that made an excellent difference because people start recognizing it.
(07:07):
And in every engagement, in every activity, in every communication,
the thought of diversity was still running in their mind.
So that made them be aware that, okay, I need to ensure that whatever I do,
I need to bring that into that picture of my work. Now, same goes to equity.
Now, when it comes to equity, again, you have this culture whereby there are
(07:29):
different set of people from different culture and whether they're having the
right amount of opportunity.
So we think as long as you are an employee of the organization,
we make the assumption that everyone gets an equal opportunity.
But in the actual scenario, that doesn't work.
So how do we actually measure that? How do we ensure that whatever we are doing,
(07:53):
that people are actually getting an equal opportunity?
So there have to be some level of measurement put in place so that at the end
of the day, your action represents each and every individual in the organization,
but not as a whole, as a group.
I'm not calling it as, oh, every stakeholder note has been considered,
(08:13):
but I'm actually going to the very lowest level of the individuals to ensure that they have a voice.
So the voice becomes very important here. I often find when I'm involved in
a project that we might have something that we'd check or it'd be like some
kind of form that people have to fill in to say, have you considered equality, diversity?
Is it, have you considered the impact of it? Tick, tick, tick.
(08:37):
But that even getting people to look at
the form or engage with that is quite difficult and often
i don't know i'm not sure what it is but maybe
you know perhaps a project manager might think oh this project's not
really going to have that kind of impact we'll just carry on that's for someone
else to do i'm ignoring that i just wondered if those were the types of things
that you saw as well and if you had any tips on you know on avoiding that or
(09:03):
getting people to engage All right. I'm just going to share this.
The method you use to actually measure this, you've got to be careful because
in my country, the measurement of a survey is one of the worst methods.
Nobody is going to give you a genuine answer. So if you're going to use the
method of survey based on the country and based on the culture,
if the method is not good, the outcome is not going to be good.
(09:25):
So the method that I use is I ensure that I go down to the ground.
For me, the ground zero is very important place. So when you go to the ground
zero, you engage with the people, you make them feel every impacted individual are important.
If they don't have that feeling, then eventually they are just a member in whatever
(09:47):
deliverables that you're doing, but they are not a contributing member towards the deliverable.
That's what I find and that's what I'm working on, even with the current project
that I'm doing. And I'm equally implying that because I want to ensure that
every individual who is impacted in it, they truly understand what we are trying to do.
(10:07):
Because at the end of the day, they're going to ask you just one question.
You can do hundreds of projects, but what is it in for me?
So now I need to bring that big project to a very tiny, tiny level to the individual
level and tell them, this is why it's important for you.
So this is where I need to bring them inside.
(10:29):
So in some very practical terms then, applying EDI into change management,
you take it just to basically into the training, into the classroom. room.
It's the interventions we apply to ensure those who are slightly neurodiverse
or have a preferred training or communication style are considered just as part of your plan.
It's a very simple step, right? You don't have to go into some great theoretical
(10:53):
or dangerous territory around academia.
It is just about making sure that the interventions we apply are considered
about people who might learn differently or might communicate differently or
might absorb information differently.
That's a very simple starting point. Would you agree, Tanaz? absolutely because
you must understand that people are already complicated
don't make things method become even
(11:13):
more complicated so i would not i would love
to apply a simple approach where it's
easy to reach them and it's even more easier for them to understand it for them
to actually deliver something the business benefit to that then thales is actually
you know can lead to improve staff retention as much as it can do to increased
engagement and buy into the company There's the benefits of just considering
(11:36):
these up front and early.
Don't just land directly to the individual, but it actually impacts the culture of the business.
Yes, absolutely right, Chris. You got that right. Because though my approach
is to every individual, but the unique value the organization is going to get
is the one that I'm looking for.
And this is where the organization actually progressed to a maturity level in
(11:58):
terms of dealing with changes.
Changes if it's not at the very basic down
level then at the end of the day if you won't
see organization progressing but what you will see
is they keep on adding projects after projects but
the real change does not take place the thing
around the eyes is people you just assume it's so it's about
(12:19):
like you know you're discussing whether it's a tick box exercise
or whether or not the organization actually responds to
these things because they can see the accumulation effect that occurs it's
it's the downstream benefits that come
from getting it right very early that you sometimes would
consider intangible because you wouldn't necessarily be able to draw them back in but
you know culturally it's it makes a it makes
(12:41):
a difference to attracting you know more people better people keeping
the right people and you know making future change stick tanis
i wondered if we could just talk a bit about your kind of experience delivering
change what what kind of projects or industries have you
worked in what kind of things have stood out for you in
your career history and what do you enjoy about change in terms
of industry i practically covered most of the industry ranging from manufacturing
(13:04):
oil and gas industry medical industries you know let me see best any kinds of
business i have at participants coming to the training from all perspective
in terms of the sectors and why do i enjoy it okay.
Can you imagine if you just go out to the street and you meet somebody and you
start talking about a change, what do you think the reaction of the people is going to be?
(13:27):
They're going to think that, what am I doing? What am I talking about?
So training for me is like a trailer before you're watching the actual movie.
You know, you get the pits and pieces of it. And then additionally,
what training has given me an opportunity is if you realize it doesn't matter
what kind of training that I'm doing, but whatever training that I'm doing,
(13:50):
whether it's related to system improvement or competency and skills or leadership,
everything involves a change, simple as that. But they don't see that.
The only thing they see is I'm attending a training and I'm gaining a particular
skill, but they don't see the changes they have to go through.
So this is where when I meet that people, it gives me that opportunity to actually
(14:12):
say that all the the trainings are good, but what you need to do is just one more additional step.
And that is the change that you got to manage in order to make sure your training
becomes even more effective.
So then suddenly they'll think about it. Oh, you mean I need to do one more
step and then this will be good?
(14:33):
Because most of the organization right now, biggest challenge they face is that
they could not get an ROI out of a training because they learn,
they go for two days training, three days training, but when they go back to the organization,
they are asking a question, why is it people are not applying what they have learned?
So this is the gap. The gap is we fail to manage the change that training is
(14:57):
bringing to the organization.
So that opportunity was given to me through the training while I opened their mind.
It's just like opening a locked door. The door has been locked for many years.
You know for the fact, change is in your mind, but nobody has opened that door
for many years and they have the training key.
You just go and unlock the door. You let them see
(15:20):
how much of impact impact that change can make in
everything that you do in the organization so that's
how powerful training has been in that sense so the
bit that you mentioned about return on investment then for the company
do you see that as something that you can support or help with and if so how
do you do that in terms of training yeah all right so what happens is like again
the moment i've conducted a training and then i'll open it up then it gives
(15:44):
me a path to actually go and talk to the management And this is where I'll bring them,
okay, let me show you how to make the training effectiveness and how to make
sure that training eventually bring the ROI to you.
And this is where I'll have another step where I create a coaching.
You know, in terms of change, what you need to do.
And then I'll create a plan for them. Okay, these are the things that additional
(16:06):
things that we need to do.
So that becomes an additional consultancy into that training part.
Part so you come in you give them the whole package
look here excellent you have opened the door
there are so many things behind the door now rewrite
now you want to arrange everything properly so that whatever was in the door
is you can visualize and you can apply it so this is what I do I give them the
(16:30):
training I come in I have the further conversation build up from the training
so so that they can see a bigger picture.
And from there, I give them a strategy, what they can actually apply and then execute.
And then this is where your ROI is going to be. So they'll see the whole process taking place.
(16:50):
It's not only about training. I say, okay, I have gained knowledge,
but what I'm going to do with the knowledge if I don't have the opportunity to apply it?
So most organization phases, they send many employees for training,
but they fail to give an opportunity to apply what they have learned.
I've just drawn something based on what you said. And then as I drew it,
(17:11):
you started kind of capturing the points. And it's really important because you're right.
Training is not the beginning. It's roughly the middle because you've
got to do all the other stuff up in the change first you know you're changing
back assessments your training needs your communications all those good kind
of therapy type things when the program or
project matures the technical training can then be deployed but that
like you say is just the trainer i love that it's a great great energy
(17:33):
i'm going to use it because actually post training you have
to give the time to apply that training and that your roi
really doesn't even start then in my mind because you the you're
giving some of the time to apply and practice what they've been
taught will provide wrap around support through super users
drop-ins all those good things but then after that that's
when they become masters of what they're doing and it's only when they
(17:53):
become masters can they start actually showing the business benefit the return
on the investment and the business benefit realization plans could
come into default and you could track and see against you know whatever products
or services you've tried to improve you'll see it but not until the the ability
to practice has been taken you can't just go from training to mastery it's not
going to happen it It wouldn't happen anywhere else. So why would we expect
(18:15):
it in the workplace in the training space?
And it's in the application bit, well, the training and the application bit
where the DEI stuff becomes super important.
Because if they haven't had the ability to participate, because we haven't put
interventions that accept whatever their learning requirements are,
then we can't expect to see the benefit later on.
(18:36):
Because they were never able to fully exploit the support and the training we
gave them. It's a clear journey, isn't it?
Absolute summary, Chris. Thank you very much for summarizing that.
Yes, you just got it out from my mind. That's exactly what I'm saying.
And if you realize there's a lot of money is being invested in training,
and then they keep sending people for training, but they don't actually see
(18:58):
what's supposed to happen after that.
What's the change management culture or maturity like in the job market there?
Are there lots of change managers or is it still something that's quite an evolving
profession and you get people that are interested and think maybe this is something
that I want to explore but they're doing other jobs at the moment?
All right okay to be very truthful change management is still at the very infant
(19:22):
level so they do have titles as change managers but their title if you look at the job description,
end up having project role instead of a change manager's role.
So that's commonly what I see. Or it is more related to just doing communications.
So they do not really understand that it goes beyond that. And it's a very powerful
(19:46):
position they are holding.
So they're not really taking that power yet. They have the title without a power to drive.
That's what's currently happening. So this is where I actually build that scope.
And I'll tell them, you are actually holding an excellent position.
Now go and grab the power so that you can actually drive and make the world to change.
(20:09):
So that's the excitement that I create. So now I do have the team that I'm developing
right now who comes and asks me
that, can I build my career over change management? And I say, absolutely.
There are so many jobs there. There's so many opportunities.
And additionally, can you just think what are the possible changes that you
can actually bring to an organization?
(20:30):
And your name is behind that change.
That is the part that actually drives them towards that.
I think it's hugely important as well, because when we were setting up the change
management function at the university, one of the key things I insisted upon
was that the change manager was not to be working for the project manager.
(20:51):
The change manager discipline is its own thing. It has to have its own independent
relationship with the sponsor or stakeholder,
stakeholder because otherwise you're you're never going to
be able to tell the truth back into those who are your your sros
or your senior sponsors because they'll hear the view that project or
the program manager will give which is a very different scenario
to the role we have project managers and programmers
(21:12):
are very good at protecting their scope and they'll protect
the scope of what their program delivers but the change management goes beyond the
scope of the project or the program because we have to ensure
that they're ready to accept the project to the program the the
project and program manager will not accept that the stuff that
we have to do to get the business ready is within their scope so we have
to have a separate relationship so you saying that it's just like yeah
(21:33):
on the money for me absolutely absolutely spot on
yeah and i always have that kind of
argument with the project managers you know where you know
i keep telling them you can do 100 projects a
year but if they are not ready to accept it
you can do another 100 for the the following year that's exactly right i
was just going to say times i'm looking at your linkedin i
(21:54):
do this when we go on all the pods because i think actually you can
get some really interesting points but when we say that we've been talking
to uh change managers across the world who've worked in different countries
you have actually worked in so many different countries from and i'm reading
these out right because i would never remember there's that many cambodia vietnam
brunei hong kong singapore indonesia muscat oman and obviously malaysia where
(22:16):
you're based i mean I mean, that's a list, isn't it?
I mean, that's like my dream travel list, let alone the places you've been lucky enough to work. But...
Have you, in those countries, do you notice a cultural difference in terms of
how change management is applied but also adopted? All right.
In those countries that I traveled and then what I realized is they apply change
(22:40):
management unconsciously, not consciously.
That's two different things. So I do things not realizing I'm actually driving
the change, but I'm doing it as just an action. action.
And since it's unconscious, people are not aware they need to produce a result.
When the unconsciousness becomes conscious action, then the awareness increases
(23:04):
and then the result increases as well.
So in those countries, right, what I realized is I've observed many cases where
people want people to change. Okay, simple thing.
What I want at the end of the day is I want every employee to be able to work
and produce what I expect them to produce. Simple as that.
It's a simple mathematic equation if you look at it.
(23:25):
But what happens is for that to achieve, there are so many challenges.
There are so many struggles to reach the result they're expecting too.
So they are actually doing many activities in order to achieve it.
So they do not know those activities they are trying to engage with them is
actually change management activities, but they're not conscious about it.
(23:46):
So when they are not conscious about it, they don't even have the awareness,
what is the outcome of the activities?
So that's why you don't see them achieving the result, but they get tired of
doing so many things in the process.
And they keep asking themselves, I'm doing everything.
Why is it not happening the way it's supposed to happen? So that's why,
(24:07):
you know, sometimes you have that opportunity to jump in and say,
I'm don't worry i'm here to help and let
me do it i like i like those types of projects as
well because it's kind of like they're quite pleased to see you they're quite
pleased just just take some help and say actually yeah just just point us in
a direction where perhaps we could just you know improve just maybe one or two
(24:28):
small things to have a bigger output because you know we've done this all and
we we can't train and teach everything so you just train and teach small things to make a
you know incremental improvements so I do like that when that happens it's it's
quite the I mean I can't even imagine what going in and doing that in in places
like in Vietnam and Oman must be like it it must be quite a positive experience
(24:49):
but maybe quite challenging too.
Yeah it's very challenging because though you're talking about Cambodia and
Vietnam which is actually Asia so when I went into the country I was pretty
comfortable thinking I'm an Asian shouldn't be a problem it'd be easy for for
me to actually manage this group of people.
But no, it does not happen that way.
Every word that I spoke positively sound negative to them. Why?
(25:13):
So that was the first shocking experience I had. Okay.
The cultural difference, the cultural difference, simple as that,
is the cultural differences.
So one of the main things that I've realized that though I'm an Asian,
I can't make this assumption every other Asian country is the same.
That I can actually just go and jump in and start doing what I've done it before in my own country.
(25:35):
But I have to start from the scratch where I need to understand who they are.
I need to study a little bit of their culture. I need to study their lifestyle.
Even lifestyle becomes a crucial, important thing for me. I need to know what
I can say, what I cannot say in their culture.
What are the words to use? So this is the first thing that I did.
So I need to add up the change first before I could actually drive it.
(25:59):
But once I'm able to do that and
that became much easier for me because I
start talking in their language even though it's English but
in their terms so you must understand
English is English but the words
in English represents different meaning based
on different cultures so that becomes crucial definitely
(26:20):
I can say that for someone living in a
different country and still using english is the the words that
people use change and you often reach
i think you sometimes you end up speaking a kind
of compromise or international version of english where where you
there's a third language completely and it means something else to anybody else
that's listening to it but yeah i was wondering though so because you said a
(26:41):
bit about needing to adapt to the lifestyle and trying to understand you know
what people's mindsets are and where they come from how do you do that because
it's quite difficult to do that on your own no i do a lot lot of research.
Now I have this habit, which I developed when I was young.
So what I used to do is I just sit at one corner in a public area and I watch
(27:02):
the behavior and pattern of people, you know, how they talk,
you know, how they behave.
And I realized that I can talk to you in one way and I'm the same person.
I can talk to Chris in a different manner.
Then I started analyzing that why people do that, because they are trying to
create an impression, different impression to different two sets of people.
(27:24):
So all those experience gave me that skill where when I communicate with someone,
the first thing is I look at their body language.
Are they reacting to my words or they are not reacting to my words?
I observe their eyes, I observe their hands, legs, movement,
any small movement will indicate to me the comfortability of them listening to what I say.
(27:50):
So if I realize they are a little bit uncomfortable, now that gives me a trigger, change.
Don't use this, use something else. So I've been doing that trial and error.
So every time I apply a method, then I'll write it down, I know I can use it
somewhere else in a different project.
I can see that writing stuff down is probably
one of your key strengths I mean you are you in your armory you
(28:11):
have more qualifications in this stuff than I think I've ever seen
offered in a course catalogue so you're you've got that theory so well versed
that you're actually applying the same methods that you've used to learn to
actually learn how others are behaving to you you know the materials and the
change interventions you apply it's um I mean it just if you want to have a
look look at Tanner's LinkedIn,
(28:32):
you'll see, I mean, that we have everything from ProSci, ITIL,
MBAs, training, Lean Six Sigma. I mean, I'm just jealous.
I think we can put you on a few of those, Chris. Yeah, you'd get a different
person come out, I think.
I don't want to ask you what's your favorite qualification or your favorite
certification, because I don't think that really means much.
(28:53):
But perhaps you do have a favorite. My favorite is ProSci certification because
I tell you why it became my favorite. The reason is I was in project for 14 years plus.
And every time I'm in the project, I always had that emptiness in me saying
that, okay, the project ended and by right, I should be happy.
But when I go down to the ground, people were not happy. So I keep asking myself,
(29:18):
what is it that I'm not doing right?
So that's when I came across ProSci. Then I realized, oh gosh,
that is a gap that I failed to close.
So that became a point where
it made the rest of my history more glaring
so whatever i had with prosci it became
more glaring that helped me out so that's why it became my favorite well prosci
(29:41):
offers a nice set of guardrails doesn't it in terms of a structure to follow
and it's using your other experiences that you can then deviate away depending
on the audience and the culture that you're trying to you know engage on a journey
so i think that's what i really like prosci i.
I've often said found the best use of it is the ability to
know when and which bits to use and not
(30:02):
necessarily thinking you have to use everything that's absolutely right
just um in terms of what we were talking about before if
Chris gets his dream job in I don't know let's say
he gets his dream job in Malaysia he's coming over
there to manage change on a project what would your
top tips be for him to land it
nicely assume he's done no research okay he's written
(30:23):
some stuff left there and i can see vina he's just landed all
right first of all i'm going to tell him welcome to the land of opportunities you
have a lot of opportunities here okay he's
just waiting for you to he's just waiting
for you to grab him that's it okay so that is the first thing
i'm going to welcome now i have four key values
that you must remember that when you are coming into asian country they're very
(30:48):
simple values but very strong values now the first value that i want to actually
talk about is for you to understand that a very common practice in most of the
Asian countries is hierarchy style administration.
So it's by ranking, it's by title.
So the name, as you say, pronouncing my name should be rightful, right?
(31:10):
But here, pronunciation of the right title even becomes very critical because
that's my first encounter.
So when I have a hierarchy system in in place, then I must ensure that every
level is identified according to their title, because those are the doors that
(31:31):
you need to open in sequence.
So if you do not know the hierarchy style, what will happen is you will go and
open the wrong door in the wrong sequence where you will create a wrong impression,
which is going to cause you a lot of struggle throughout the process.
That's key number value one. Now, key value two, it's high tolerance.
(31:55):
Why tolerance? Because things is going to be different than where you came from.
So you would have certain kind of standards, perspective.
So I would say, please come with the empty sheet because this is where you're
going to do a lot of coloring.
You're going to do a lot of painting. So make the painting beautiful.
But if your paper is already, there's a painting there, you can't add on anymore.
(32:17):
So keep it empty. So have that eye tolerance level because everything is going
to come in at a certain pace, which may not be aligned with your kind of pace.
So you've got to add that. Now, third value, very, very important,
acceptance, not judgmental.
There's a very thin line between acceptance and judgmental. And so when I go
(32:40):
and tell them, okay, the very first thing you must actually understand is the cultural differences.
So people say, oh, no worries. I understand. I have studied it.
I have done my research in terms of the culture.
I'm very good at it. So we tell them, okay, so you got to learn to accept it.
But in the name of acceptance, they end up making a judgment out of it.
(33:00):
So that could be very crucial. So very thin line between acceptance and judgment.
Again we are playing with words so that's
how we're going to so that comes to the falling point is sensitivity
beliefs cultural sensitivity now just to give you a picture when you talk about
culture let me give you the whole picture of culture so you're going to a country
(33:21):
so level one is country culture right level two is between urban and rural culture
right level three Three,
organization culture, right?
Level four, individual culture. I really like that. Yeah, that makes complete sense.
So in that sense, right? So every approach that you are going to implement,
(33:46):
it's based on the culture systems that you got to be aware of.
So that's why I say that acceptance, but not judgmental.
So you got to be very careful in that. And the final thing, which is very,
very crucial is respect.
Very crucial. Now, this is what I have gone through it myself.
Sometimes you think you know it all or you think that you're an expert and then
(34:09):
you go into the organization, you want to do this, you want to do that.
You know, you have so many ideas in place, you know, you're all geared up,
you just want to implement something.
But in that process, we forget to give the respect,
the due respect to the stakeholders because for them,
they feel that, hey look here i know my organization i've
been sitting here for years i've been holding this title i know
(34:32):
what i'm doing so especially in a
hierarchy based system now respect becomes very
very crucial so i want to make sure whatever that i do
i bring them up i boost
them up so i put them in front
of me instead of behind me so that's
the image i create you're giving me some useful tips for the UK I think and
(34:54):
the back picture yeah I think actually a lot of what you said there is it very
applicable to maybe even just changing a job in a new organization yeah they're
really good just kind of sensible it's a sensible mindset isn't it I think they're.
Really applicable just to changing culture definitely
i love the observation in a public space that you referenced earlier i
(35:16):
could see how that can help with the sensitivities point you
made but even so i think even if you were just to change it from significant
company to company or industry to industry those things are actually they're
applicable to everything yeah but the only thing what happens is that people
forget that to fly yes we need to wrap up because we've We've had a really good
(35:38):
chat, actually, I think.
And I'm really looking forward to getting back through and listening to this
because I'm sure there's a lot I can learn that I need to write down.
Like Chris has been, I haven't got my pen and paper with me.
There is one final question.
It's kind of a cultural question, but we ask it to every guest.
And just it's always a surprise.
And I have to apologize because when we've been speaking to people in the UK
(36:01):
or Europe, this has made a lot more sense.
But when we ask people, what is your favorite biscuit?
Then sometimes we found recently people don't quite understand what biscuits
are. I think our American friend thought they were something to put in gravy.
So I'm interested to see how you answer the question anyway.
So what is your favorite biscuit? My favorite biscuit is butter cookies.
(36:22):
Oh, perfect. Okay. Butter cookies. We can go for those.
Believe me, I went to UK, I went to Harrods. The first thing that I grab is,
what kind of butter cookies do you have?
That's the very first thing I did. you know so my basket was literally
full of different type of butter cookies originating from
different states and different countries that's amazing
and a good choice i'm happy with these that's a
(36:44):
good choice because they go so well with tea or coffee absolutely right
um tell us thank you for me for your time especially
as it's your friday evening your weekend i assume as i've made
a cultural assumption there actually because of course in in in
dubai of course the weekend isn't on a friday is it it's a
sunday and a monday so i shouldn't have made that assumption anyway thank you
for giving up your friday no worries because i'm kind of used to the u.s time
(37:07):
and uk time as well thank you i do deal with people from there so i'm pretty
uh comfortable with this time thank you so much for giving up your time to do
this thank you very much for giving me the opportunity as well i really appreciate that.
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