Episode 14 - The Loves of Theodore Roosevelt (part 1) with Edward O'Keefe

Larry and Kurt speak with author Edward F. O'Keefe about his newly released book The Loves of Theodore Roosevelt: The Women Who Created a President

https://www.talkaboutteddy.com/ 

Episode Transcript

(00:10):
Uh, you're currently CEO of the TR Presidential Library Foundation, and before that worked in the, in journalism for a couple of decades. 3 00:00:19,710.999 --> 00:00:41,565 Uh, so, how do you come to be interested in Theodore Roosevelt, you know, what's your, your TR story, and, and then in particular, what, uh, what caused you to be interested in the, the, the role of women in his life? Well, Kurt, I, I, I say in the loves of Theodore Roosevelt, um, that when you're born in North Dakota, you get your birth certificate.

(00:42):
then your choice of idols, Peggy Lee, Lawrence Welk, Roger Maris, or Theodore Roosevelt. 5 00:00:47,835.1 --> 00:00:50,465 So I chose T.
R.
or perhaps T.
R.
chose me, uh, you know, you, you all have spent some time in Medora, North Dakota, uh, what I consider to be one of the most beautiful places in the world, the Badlands, where Theodore Roosevelt spent those formative years, uh, as a rancher and a cowboy. 10 00:01:08,955.1 --> 00:01:14,015 I traveled through Medora practically every summer with my family.

(01:14):
We would go to the Medora musical.
Uh, we would spend time at Theater Roosevelt National Park.
And I, you know, I just, I, I was a Red River Rough Rider.
.999High school Rough Riders were my school mascot and I always wanted to, read everything and watched everything that I could about Theodore Roosevelt, but I never had the time given the 20 years I spent in media that you, you mentioned Kurt.

(01:39):
to really dig deep and do some research, um, and learn on my own about TR.
And I've always been fascinated by the women in his life.
I've, I've, you know, heard legend of BAMI in particular.
Obviously I knew a bit more about Edith because she was first lady.
And I, so I, I wanted to know more about them, but I really, I started my research thinking that I would write a hopefully definitive account of Theodore Roosevelt's time in the Badlands, how nature was his healing tonic, and how as he said, he would never would've been president.

(02:16):
But for his experiences in North Dakota, I, I felt as a North Dakotan and somebody involved in building the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library in.
Western North Dakota that that was a perspective, um, that that could use more attention as I started the research, though, I just kept bumping into the women.
I mean, these extraordinary, um.

(02:38):
Women in his life who are a part of every single major decision that he makes both personal and political, and respect the canon.
.999I love the canon of work on TR, the rise of Theodore Roosevelt was like a Bible to me, you know, I read it so many times the pages are ripped and torn and dog eared and underlined and penciled and, but, you know, there are takes on MIDI and Alice and, you know, Uh, in particular, that as I got to know them through the original research and the letters, I thought, wow, this is, these, these are, these are very different people than what I thought I knew from what has been written about them. 25 00:03:20,869.999 --> 00:03:28,199.999 And, um, all of a sudden a new idea emerged, you know, the loves of Theodore Roosevelt, the women who created a president that this.

(03:28):
Hyper masculine, um, man who is probably, you know, probably the most masculine president in the American memory is actually the product of these extraordinary women.
And, and, you know, he's, he's always, TR is that person that is supposedly self made and I love that image of Theodore Roosevelt.

(03:51):
I admire that image of Theodore Roosevelt, the resilience and strenuous life that he lived.
But it actually makes me admire him.
More knowing that he had and needed help at many and various points in his life.
And, and so that's, that's how I came to, to write the loves of Theodore Roosevelt.
Yeah, that's, I mean, that's a great story.

(04:13):
I mean, those of us who are blessed to have supportive women in our lives, uh, you know, that's a, that's a great perspective to, to look at this man that, like you said, the mythology is built up that, that he's self made, or we hear so much about his father, Thee, being the greatest man he ever knew and such an influence, and yet, You've almost turned that, uh, North Dakota slogan on its head and said, Were it not for the women in my life, I would never have been President of the United States.

(04:43):
I think that's very true, Kurt.
I think that's exactly right.
And it's not to detract from Theodore Roosevelt's accomplishments.
It's not to say that, you know, Thie wasn't a great man. 38 00:04:54,224.999 --> 00:04:54,745 He was.
Thie was an extraordinary example.
But I think in certain characters up, we've at times diminished the importance of others.

(05:06):
And, you know, I think of history as, as storytelling, right? That each successive generation is telling a little bit different version of the story that they've heard before.
And I've heard throughout my life that Theodore Roosevelt is the product of his own will, that he is almost supernatural in his Ability to persevere.

(05:33):
And I thought, wow, that's, that's an example I want to live up to and a credo that I want to embrace.
As you go through life, you struggle, right? There, there are hurts and pains and death and challenge and sickness and, uh, you know, you need your brothers, your mother, your father, your sisters, your colleagues, your friends, your spouse help you through those moments.

(06:00):
And even, um, the great ones like Theodore Roosevelt had help.
Um, and I, I just thought it was appropriate in time to take a look at those people in his life that, that made him possible.
You write that Midi was in many ways the source of TR's greatest strength, his resilience. 48 00:06:21,795.999 --> 00:06:23,618.02 Can you explain that? Mm hmm. 49 00:06:23,618.02 --> 00:06:24,63.98 Heheheheh. 50 00:06:24,63.98 --> 00:06:24,955.9 Mm hmm.

(06:25):
love many.
I think I think David McCullough might take a bit more charitable view of Nitty than Edmund Morris.
Um, I really looked to mornings on horseback and I saw these glimmers of personality and, um, liveliness.
.999Uh, they actually, brother says when he marries Middy, between your solemnity and her liveliness, you make an even pair.

(06:55):
I guess it's a 19th century way of saying opposites attract. 56 00:06:59,595.1 --> 00:07:00,304.9 Right.
And, and you can imagine, right, Thie is, Is, uh, uh, solemn and serious and, um, very dutiful.
And Middy is this southern belle with incredible wit and personality.

(07:16):
Um, her brother will say of Middy that she is a, uh, a bright eyed, lively lass with a ready tongue.
I mean, if you just took that quote You can apply it to Theodore Roosevelt.
And I think indeed, T.
R.
Mm is much more Middy's than his father's. 64 00:07:37,4.999 --> 00:07:46,74.999 I mean, he, you know, he, he admires and loves his father, but if he takes after one of his parents more than the other, you'd have to arguably say it's Middy.

(07:47):
and, and Middy, I, I think, you know, as Thie is off, especially during the Civil War, Working for the allotment system or the passage of what will become the allotment system.
It's Mitty, who's home with the children. 67 00:08:01,674.999 --> 00:08:03,706 Now, granted, she has help, hmm. 68 00:08:03,714.999 --> 00:08:04,254.9995 about that. 69 00:08:04,254.9995 --> 00:08:08,114.999 The people that are with her are Aunt Anna and Patsy Bullock, her mother.

(08:08):
Um, and so, indeed, really, the Roosevelt children are being raised by a retinue of women.
Uh, and it's Mitty who's there cooling every fever, who's there, you know, literally massaging Theodore Roosevelt's chest as a child so the blood can come out because he's hacking from such asthmatic attacks.

(08:31):
Um, you know, that's scary in a, in a time when mortality was absolutely abysmal.
I Yes.
.9The Loves of Theodore Roosevelt by saying.
From the beginning, the survival of Theodore Roosevelt was very much in doubt.
You know, this is someone who had to learn to fight for their life from the very first breath.

(08:53):
And it was Mitty, who was often there helping him, holding him, caring for him.
You know, the stories of Thie are of cigar smoke and midnight rides and, uh, you know, challenges to make Heheheh.
body, um, as well as his mind.
Those are all wonderful things that obviously contributed to the psyche of Theodore Roosevelt, but it was, it was his mother who arguably kept him alive.

(09:25):
.999Edward, your account of, of TR's life at Harvard, provides some insights into his youthful character, after the death of his father his sophomore year. 82 00:09:35,525.998 --> 00:09:53,4.999 Uh, would you like to share a little bit about, some of those findings and some of the sources that, that you use in, in telling that story? Sure, well, I mean, you know, 1878 is an incredibly consequential year in the life of Theodore Roosevelt on February 9th, his father, his beloved, revered father. 83 00:09:53,369.999 --> 00:09:58,569.999 Will die at age 46, which is very young, even for the time for him to pass away. 84 00:09:58,789.999 --> 00:10:03,210.999 And I would say somewhat unexpectedly in TR's view, you know, he goes back Yeah. 85 00:10:03,649.999 --> 00:10:09,19.999 after Christmas, knowing that his father isn't well, but it's, it's in a way a stunning death. 86 00:10:09,79.999 --> 00:10:12,819.999 I mean, his father is taken from him when he's only 20 years old. 87 00:10:13,219.999 --> 00:10:34,679.999 Um, and really, you know, goes through this remarkable period of introspection and knowing that he's lost the most important influence, the person that TR will say, the only man in whom I ever confided my innermost thoughts, um, and then will simultaneously say, you know, will wonder about a wife. 88 00:10:35,984.999 --> 00:10:38,144.999 I wonder who my wife will be. 89 00:10:38,144.999 --> 00:10:46,914.9985 The only person that can replace my father, this person that I trusted and told everything to is a wife, which is an interesting kind of calculation. 90 00:10:46,914.9985 --> 00:10:47,930.999 It tells you Yeah. 91 00:10:48,124.998 --> 00:10:51,974.999 years old, right? He's, he's, he's depressed about his father dying. 92 00:10:52,319.999 --> 00:11:14,800.999 But he's also curious about living and he wonders and says, I wonder who my wife will be a rare radiant maiden, is, of course, directly from Edgar Allen Poe and the Raven and to think about, um, TR liking Edgar Allan Poe and admiring Edgar Allan Poe in Mm hmm. 93 00:11:14,850.999 --> 00:11:25,499.998 Mm that was not a commonplace view, right? Poe is disgraced at this point, um, and really disregarded by, uh, at least literary history. 94 00:11:25,699.998 --> 00:11:38,524.999 So the idea that TR, who, who certainly had a good value system, is seeing the, the already seen Poe as one of the great literary minds of, um, his generation. 95 00:11:38,554.999 --> 00:11:40,264.999 It's interesting in and of itself. 96 00:11:40,664.999 --> 00:11:58,329.998 And then of course you fast forward in 1878 to August 22nd, and this mysterious, rupturous split that happens between Edith and Theodore, taking the walk up Tranquility, which of course was anything but tranquil because the Roosevelt's were there. 97 00:11:58,729.998 --> 00:11:59,980.999 And, um, hmm. 98 00:11:59,981.099 --> 00:12:00,820.899 Mm hmm. 99 00:12:01,209.999 --> 00:12:05,999.999 that day between these two that were supposed to be married? You know, did T. 100 00:12:05,999.999 --> 00:12:06,319.999 R. 101 00:12:06,329.999 --> 00:12:23,349.998 propose to Edith and she, as she later claimed, rejected him? You know, did he, did he get a little fresh with Edith and she took offense? Uh, you know, was he presumptive with his bonus sister that everyone presumed would always be his? We don't know. 102 00:12:23,359.998 --> 00:12:25,879.999 History doesn't provide the answer. 103 00:12:26,189.999 --> 00:12:36,759.999 But something so bad happened between these two that they split and it seemed as though they would never come back together. 104 00:12:37,79.999 --> 00:12:43,639.998 And then, of course, you fast forward two months later from August 22nd, 1878 to October 18th. 105 00:12:44,714.999 --> 00:12:50,640.999 And there's Alice Hathaway Lee, you know, this beautiful, beguiling, Mm hmm. 106 00:12:50,894.999 --> 00:12:55,724.998 Boston Brahmin who must have just taken TR's breath away. 107 00:12:55,974.999 --> 00:12:59,604.999 And suddenly it becomes Edith Hu for the next two years. 108 00:12:59,954.999 --> 00:13:04,364.999 And, uh, you know, it's just, it's just a remarkable formative year. 109 00:13:04,654.999 --> 00:13:11,434.999 Um, I, I, you know, I, I did a lot of research about Henry Davis Minot, um, his good friend in college. 110 00:13:11,474.999 --> 00:13:16,700.999 I think Of my not almost as a psychological mirror for Theodore Mm hmm. 111 00:13:16,789.999 --> 00:13:26,799.999 had these people in his life that were, you know, my not writes these excruciating letters about trying to find his manliness. 112 00:13:27,289.999 --> 00:13:27,900.999 You Yeah. 113 00:13:27,949.999 --> 00:13:42,249.999 he drops out of Harvard and goes into the 19th century equivalent of, uh, you know, of a, of a sanitarium for a brief while to, to try to, uh, to figure out who he is as a person. 114 00:13:42,289.999 --> 00:13:46,189.999 And yet he has this very close relationship with Theodore Roosevelt. 115 00:13:46,189.999 --> 00:13:48,209.999 So, you wouldn't, you wouldn't see T. 116 00:13:48,209.999 --> 00:13:48,589.999 R. 117 00:13:48,589.999 --> 00:13:54,739.999 and Henry Davis Minot necessarily as the best and closest of friends just because their disposition. 118 00:13:55,89.999 --> 00:14:12,869.998 Is so seemingly different, but I think that tells you something about how sensitive TR is and just how, how, how important natural science was to him as a potential career, which, which sort of gets to, you know, how Alice changed the trajectory of his life. 119 00:14:12,879.999 --> 00:14:13,740.999 But, Yeah. 120 00:14:13,789.999 --> 00:14:20,279.999 I, I could not have done the loves of Theodore Roosevelt without some precedential research. 121 00:14:20,539.999 --> 00:14:23,904.999 I mean, A most glorious ride, Edward P. 122 00:14:23,904.999 --> 00:14:25,30.999 Cohen Yes. 123 00:14:25,824.999 --> 00:14:27,254.999 diaries of TR. 124 00:14:27,294.999 --> 00:14:32,924.999 I mean, just a remarkable contribution to the, to the Theodore Roosevelt canon of work. 125 00:14:33,40.999 --> 00:14:33,510.999 Yes. 126 00:14:33,624.999 --> 00:14:36,624.998 way, that published right before the pandemic. 127 00:14:37,44.998 --> 00:14:41,189.9985 So, I mean, I am literally shut out of any research facilities. 128 00:14:41,189.9985 --> 00:14:42,170.999 I can't Mm hmm. 129 00:14:42,274.999 --> 00:14:45,554.999 on leads or piece together information and there. 130 00:14:45,844.999 --> 00:14:52,204.999 Remarkably, magically, serendipitously, is Cohen's incredible work. 131 00:14:52,464.999 --> 00:15:04,614.998 Um, you know, Betty Caroli and what she wrote in The Roosevelt Women, these lovely vignettes on each of the Roosevelt Women, far beyond TR's family, including the FDR line as well. 132 00:15:04,914.999 --> 00:15:09,944.999 And then I talk about it in The Loves of Theodore Roosevelt often, and cite the book often, but I think Dr. 133 00:15:09,944.999 --> 00:15:19,154.999 Kathleen Dalton's work, A Strenuous Life, Is is for my money, the, the greatest single volume biography of Theodore Roosevelt. 134 00:15:19,154.999 --> 00:15:23,579.999 I mean, she really puts forward, uh, both academic heft and. 135 00:15:24,229.999 --> 00:15:41,630.999 A narrative that, that positions TR in, in a way that I'm allowed to pick up where Kathy's left off and, and build a bigger portrait of these individual women and their importance, you know, hers is a cradle to grave biography of TR built on 40 years Yeah. 136 00:15:42,219.999 --> 00:15:44,909.999 dedicated academic and scholarly research. 137 00:15:44,910.099 --> 00:15:48,679.999 And I'm able to, you know, take the parts of that book. 138 00:15:48,974.999 --> 00:16:04,750.999 That are pertaining particularly to the women and try to expand and extrapolate what what those women meant to so lots of I stand on the shoulders of some pretty remarkable scholars and historians and writers in the Mm hmm. 139 00:16:04,905.099 --> 00:16:15,370.998 This seems like everyone we speak with pretty comes up as the definitive, uh, Yes. 140 00:16:16,175.999 --> 00:16:19,335.999 one volume edition of TR's biography. 141 00:16:19,514.999 --> 00:16:25,644.999 Well, and I'll tell you, Kurt, I mean, I, I, uh, Kathy was so incredible and so gracious to me. 142 00:16:25,674.999 --> 00:16:29,214.9985 I was at Harvard after I left, uh, CNN. 143 00:16:29,214.9985 --> 00:16:33,84.999 I was working with Anthony Bourdain on his program, Parts Unknown. 144 00:16:33,114.999 --> 00:16:40,554.999 Obviously his, uh, tragic passing and I find myself in Cambridge and Kathy, I reach out to Kathy. 145 00:16:40,784.999 --> 00:16:41,914.899 She not only me. 146 00:16:42,224.999 --> 00:16:44,324.999 Aided and answered my question. 147 00:16:44,334.999 --> 00:16:45,924.999 She invited me to her home. 148 00:16:45,954.999 --> 00:16:49,124.999 She and her lovely husband, Tony, we had lunch. 149 00:16:49,194.999 --> 00:16:51,104.999 She brought me down to her research. 150 00:16:51,174.999 --> 00:16:52,844.999 She said, whatever you need. 151 00:16:53,324.999 --> 00:17:04,890.998 You can take and photocopy or bring back and again, during the pandemic, Kathy has this, you know, voluminous record of research through 40 Yeah. 152 00:17:04,924.999 --> 00:17:12,334.999 of her academic pursuit of TR and I could reach out to her at any time and she would have the answer I needed at the moment I needed it. 153 00:17:12,334.999 --> 00:17:16,494.999 So the loves of Theodore Roosevelt is not possible without Kathy Dalton. 154 00:17:18,15.999 --> 00:17:18,445.999 Wonderful. 155 00:17:18,660.999 --> 00:17:19,240.999 That is. 156 00:17:21,690.998 --> 00:17:26,210.998 We had a question, and you've already answered it, I think, but in the book, you quote from T. 157 00:17:26,210.999 --> 00:17:26,330.9985 R. 158 00:17:26,330.9985 --> 00:17:31,900.999 's diary from 1880 that he calls Alice Hathaway Lee his first love. 159 00:17:32,830.999 --> 00:17:41,259.999 And you've already answered, so, I mean, do you think she was? no, I do not. 160 00:17:41,259.999 --> 00:17:41,919.999 I do not. 161 00:17:41,924.999 --> 00:17:44,499.999 I, I and I, I, man, I love Alice. 162 00:17:44,529.999 --> 00:17:54,979.999 Um, I, I believe that was his second love and first wife, and Edith was his first love and his second wife. 163 00:17:56,284.999 --> 00:18:09,784.999 you know, we can certainly talk about it, but no two diametrically different women have perhaps ever existed, yet they were both the wife of Theodore Roosevelt. 164 00:18:09,814.998 --> 00:18:15,594.999 And that is what I found also extraordinary about looking at Alice and Edith. 165 00:18:16,359.999 --> 00:18:23,429.999 You know, Alice is largely written off in most of the history of Theodore Roosevelt. 166 00:18:23,449.999 --> 00:18:27,19.999 She dies at 22, almost 23 years old. 167 00:18:27,789.999 --> 00:18:33,359.998 She is only with him for the sum total of six years, if you count the courtship years. 168 00:18:33,379.999 --> 00:18:35,489.998 They're married for barely four. 169 00:18:36,799.999 --> 00:18:40,69.999 You know, and there's just not a great historical record. 170 00:18:41,509.999 --> 00:18:44,59.999 But, if you look at what they did. 171 00:18:44,289.999 --> 00:18:55,779.999 What is there at the letters they did exchange at the time they did have together in Theodore Roosevelt's own words, he rose like a rocket when he was married to Alice. 172 00:18:56,174.999 --> 00:19:06,694.999 It is that Boston Brahmin progressivism of the Lee family and the Saltonstall family who of course come into Theodore's life after the loss of his father. 173 00:19:07,264.999 --> 00:19:10,724.998 So in a way, they substitute, you know, Mr. 174 00:19:11,104.999 --> 00:19:24,784.999 Henry Cabot Lee and, and, uh, you know, George Cabot Lee and, uh, the Saltonstalls, Leverett Saltonstall, they in a way become a substitute for what Theodore has lost. 175 00:19:24,844.998 --> 00:19:25,654.999 They're talking. 176 00:19:26,9.999 --> 00:19:36,259.999 Progressive politics, poetry, literature, all the things that he would have talked over with his father are suddenly there before him with the Lees and the Saltonstalls. 177 00:19:36,259.999 --> 00:19:39,59.999 That's all connected to, to Alice. 178 00:19:39,119.998 --> 00:19:49,929.998 I mean, it's an undeniable influence of this woman that, um, although there's not a great historical record, clearly meant an extraordinary amount to T. 179 00:19:49,930.098 --> 00:19:50,259.899 R. 180 00:19:50,259.899 --> 00:20:27,569.899 Yeah, so, a bit of the letters that we do have that survive there's this, what you describe as this infantilizing, uh, tone and the, the words are, are almost embarrassing, uh, to, to read from, from Roosevelt, just this gushing, uh, uh, language that he uses, but you, you say that, that, uh, uh, She made him want to be a better man, that, uh, that he changed, she changed him in ways that, um, that maybe history hasn't appreciated and that also, um, this process of winning her hand, uh, seems to have altered that, uh, TR's trajectory. 181 00:20:27,569.899 --> 00:20:29,398.899 Could you talk a little bit about sure. 182 00:20:29,408.899 --> 00:20:43,8.899 Well, Kurt, let's just stop for a moment and recognize that once again, Theodore Roosevelt learned this from his father, right? That so fee will write to midi do not become a strong minded woman. 183 00:20:43,708.899 --> 00:20:46,648.899 And of course, Middy has ever had other ideas. 184 00:20:47,148.899 --> 00:20:48,708.899 She was a strong minded woman. 185 00:20:48,708.899 --> 00:20:52,369.899 She couldn't not become a strong minded woman because she was a Yep. 186 00:20:52,398.899 --> 00:20:52,478.899 woman. 187 00:20:53,188.899 --> 00:20:58,878.899 And in the same way that Thee will infantilize Middy, Teddy, T. 188 00:20:58,878.899 --> 00:20:59,218.8985 R., 189 00:20:59,218.8985 --> 00:21:00,678.799 will infantilize Middy. 190 00:21:01,219.899 --> 00:21:01,489.899 Yeah. 191 00:21:01,878.899 --> 00:21:09,638.899 and, and it's interesting to see that pattern repeat between father and son because I think Alice was very much like Mitty. 192 00:21:09,908.899 --> 00:21:12,398.899 I think, you know, she's strong-willed. 193 00:21:12,403.899 --> 00:21:16,178.899 She's vibrant, she's effervescent with life. 194 00:21:16,178.899 --> 00:21:19,28.899 She's beguiling, she's absolutely beautiful. 195 00:21:19,28.899 --> 00:21:22,418.899 I mean, one of the most eligible bachelorettes in all of Boston. 196 00:21:23,193.899 --> 00:21:33,333.899 Her nickname is sunshine, When, when, when Alice dies and we'll talk about that, about that, I think in a moment, right? The light has gone out of my life. 197 00:21:34,3.899 --> 00:21:40,353.899 He meant it both literally and metaphorically sunshine, Alice had died. 198 00:21:41,353.898 --> 00:21:41,919.899 I Yeah. 199 00:21:42,43.899 --> 00:22:02,748.898 it's, you know, to imagine somebody that Um, and present in life that with that positivity and attitude, um, it would be quite dramatic if, if she were lost and taken from you as, as early as Alice was, but I think, you know, to answer your question heard about how it changed his trajectory. 200 00:22:02,998.899 --> 00:22:09,388.898 I was just the earth that the Smithsonian with Darren Lund, the author of the naturalist. 201 00:22:10,473.898 --> 00:22:12,179.898 Darren was showing Yes. 202 00:22:12,393.898 --> 00:22:23,903.898 these extraordinary specimens of the Roosevelt Museum of Natural History that, coincidentally, TR donated in 1882 because he's done with natural science. 203 00:22:25,543.897 --> 00:22:26,499.898 you Mm-Hmm. 204 00:22:26,573.897 --> 00:22:28,243.898 passing curiosity for him. 205 00:22:28,253.897 --> 00:22:33,313.898 This is, he's six years old when he's collecting these specimens and doing taxidermy. 206 00:22:33,553.898 --> 00:22:36,883.898 He's interested in studying natural science at Harvard. 207 00:22:37,123.898 --> 00:22:43,993.898 Now, of course, you have to also say that at that point, science and the study of science is shifting to the laboratory. 208 00:22:44,3.898 --> 00:22:45,483.898 It's not out in the field. 209 00:22:45,643.897 --> 00:23:00,993.898 It's not the type of science that perhaps TR wanted to study, but really the change in attitude is due to Alice at the Lees and the Salton stalls, this progressive reform minded interest in politics. 210 00:23:01,343.898 --> 00:23:13,563.898 and making a difference in the world and, frankly, having the means, having the money to afford someone as eligible, um, and as desirable as Alice Hathaway Lee. 211 00:23:13,923.897 --> 00:23:17,293.898 Uh, I mean, he spends, and Edward Cohen documents this. 212 00:23:17,433.897 --> 00:23:21,193.897 Thank you, Edward, for going through the, the, the record. 213 00:23:21,533.897 --> 00:23:25,303.897 You know, the equivalent of hundreds of thousands of dollars in modern times. 214 00:23:25,653.898 --> 00:23:37,503.898 Currency on trinkets and a horse and a dog cart and stable fees and entertainment and uh, you know, everything he can to win the hand of Alice. 215 00:23:37,563.898 --> 00:23:42,133.898 This is a two year absolute Mad pursuit. 216 00:23:42,183.898 --> 00:23:48,463.898 I mean, imagine if you're Alice Hathaway Lee being the object of Theodore Roosevelt's affection. 217 00:23:48,823.898 --> 00:24:04,593.898 I mean, watch out, right? The same energy he will put toward charging up Capitol Hill, the same energy he will put toward a record number of speeches on the campaign trail, he is putting toward one, as he says, all absorbing object. 218 00:24:04,943.898 --> 00:24:07,883.898 Alice, he wants to win her. 219 00:24:08,123.898 --> 00:24:11,843.898 And so in order to do so, he had to change trajectory. 220 00:24:11,873.898 --> 00:24:18,773.898 He had to change the pursuit of his life from natural science to the law, and that naturally led to politics. 221 00:24:19,239.898 --> 00:24:27,969.898 that? Well, you mentioned in the book that the company owned by George Cabot, Lee Alice's father was much involved with the beef bonanza. 222 00:24:28,269.898 --> 00:24:35,333.898 Do you think this influenced TRS decision to invest in cattle ranching in the Dakotas? I do, Larry. 223 00:24:35,503.898 --> 00:24:36,53.898 I do. 224 00:24:36,93.898 --> 00:24:49,253.8975 I think, I think that it's, almost irresistible in the conclusion, you know, George Cabot Lee and, um, his business, as you say, is very heavily invested. 225 00:24:49,253.8975 --> 00:24:55,453.898 Henry Davis, my not is involved in his Mm-Hmm? is involved in the railroad expansion. 226 00:24:55,453.898 --> 00:24:59,3.898 I mean, my not North Dakota is named for Henry Davis. 227 00:24:59,63.898 --> 00:24:59,463.898 My not. 228 00:25:00,643.898 --> 00:25:05,333.898 right? You know, so here are two people who are in his life right around the time. 229 00:25:05,638.898 --> 00:25:22,598.897 That he makes his first trip to Dakota, which is not, of course, in 1883, it's during his bachelor party and in 1880, he heads out there with Elliot and just dips into what would become a modern day North Dakota and, and the Minnesota border. 230 00:25:23,298.898 --> 00:25:24,979.898 You know, he's curious Yeah. 231 00:25:25,8.897 --> 00:25:25,748.898 part of the world. 232 00:25:25,838.898 --> 00:25:27,648.898 It's as far as the train will go. 233 00:25:27,873.898 --> 00:25:34,823.898 But he's also got a father in law who's invested in this business and he's got a friend whose father is very invested in the railroads. 234 00:25:35,163.898 --> 00:25:44,143.898 Um, so, yes, yet again, I think there's an unsung influence of Alice and the Lee family on interest in and knowledge of the West. 235 00:25:44,143.998 --> 00:25:58,683.897 Well, TR was influenced by Roosevelt's extended family? I mean, again, I, I think that there's. 236 00:25:59,643.897 --> 00:26:03,923.898 almost hard to find a circumstance in which. 237 00:26:04,373.898 --> 00:26:11,153.898 TR was not influenced by the Lees and the salt installs at this formative period of his life. 238 00:26:11,503.898 --> 00:26:11,743.898 Right. 239 00:26:11,743.898 --> 00:26:15,643.898 Let's just step back for the audience and talk about George Cabot Lee. 240 00:26:15,643.898 --> 00:26:25,273.898 I mean, I, I talk in the loves of Theodore Roosevelt about how, you know, um, the, the, the most Boston families were. 241 00:26:25,763.898 --> 00:26:27,863.898 Uh, politically active. 242 00:26:27,963.898 --> 00:26:30,263.898 They were reform minded. 243 00:26:30,313.898 --> 00:26:42,473.898 They were, um, you know, really thinking about the questions that would inform what TR's philosophy later become in terms of labor relationships, in terms of, uh, suffrage. 244 00:26:42,513.897 --> 00:26:45,873.898 I mean, let's just talk, let's just stop and think about suffrage for a moment. 245 00:26:46,293.898 --> 00:26:49,453.798 You know, Roosevelt is, is, you know. 246 00:26:50,443.898 --> 00:26:57,843.898 to win the hand of Alice Hathaway Lee in an 1880, shortly after he announces his engagement on February 14th. 247 00:26:58,578.898 --> 00:27:06,238.898 comes out with the, the, this incredible document supporting, uh, suffrage and equal rights for women. 248 00:27:06,248.898 --> 00:27:09,778.898 He says a woman shouldn't necessarily take her husband's name. 249 00:27:09,788.897 --> 00:27:11,298.898 He says women should own property. 250 00:27:11,348.898 --> 00:27:15,458.898 He says that women should become professionals, judges, and lawyers. 251 00:27:15,748.898 --> 00:27:20,118.898 This is 40 years before, uh, the 19th Amendment will pass. 252 00:27:20,118.898 --> 00:27:22,228.898 It's, it's incredibly progressive. 253 00:27:22,468.898 --> 00:27:25,448.898 You know, and then you take a look at some of the others in the family. 254 00:27:25,448.898 --> 00:27:26,898.898 You know, I mentioned earlier that. 255 00:27:27,938.898 --> 00:27:36,558.898 Mitty's mother, Patsy, and Mitty's aunt, Anna, are both living with the, uh, with the Roosevelt's during the Civil War. 256 00:27:36,808.898 --> 00:27:41,268.898 I mean, you know, they're an incredible influence on, on, um, T. 257 00:27:41,268.898 --> 00:27:41,548.8975 R. 258 00:27:41,548.8975 --> 00:27:42,728.898 as well growing up. 259 00:27:42,728.898 --> 00:27:49,998.898 I mean, he's growing up and is raised by a retinue of these interesting women who are always a part of his life. 260 00:27:50,393.898 --> 00:27:53,793.898 You have, um, you know, being homeschooled with Edith. 261 00:27:53,823.898 --> 00:27:57,343.898 You have the books that they were reading, uh, together. 262 00:27:57,353.898 --> 00:27:59,113.898 You have the McGuffey readers. 263 00:27:59,153.898 --> 00:28:05,923.898 I mean, there's so many different ways in which that, that kind of extended family had an influence on TR. 264 00:28:06,203.898 --> 00:28:09,823.897 Um, it, it's again, almost irresistible in its conclusion. 265 00:28:09,883.998 --> 00:28:25,529.8975 The question Well, Edward, both Larry and I took notice of, of this same section in the book here where we're kind of, we're building into Alice's, uh, uh, delivery and, and, uh, and then her death. 266 00:28:25,529.8975 --> 00:28:32,159.898 But you write, uh, time and again, Roosevelt's reaction to change was the same. 267 00:28:32,229.898 --> 00:28:39,359.898 Run, not to church, but instead to the Cathedral of With fatherhood impending, Roosevelt lit out for Dakota. 268 00:28:40,469.898 --> 00:28:43,789.897 When Alice and Mitty died, Roosevelt returned to the Badlands. 269 00:28:43,809.897 --> 00:28:52,789.898 Not to put too fine a point, or trivialize this point, but when the going got tough in his personal life, Theodore Roosevelt went hunting. 270 00:28:56,448.9605 --> 00:29:09,158.8605 You know, it's interesting, right? I mean, uh, Theodore Roosevelt again is known for his courage and his bravery, and it's a well deserved reputation. 271 00:29:09,268.8605 --> 00:29:09,789.798 I Yeah. 272 00:29:10,48.8605 --> 00:29:23,158.8605 will face, I, I like to say that after the death of Mitty and Alice, which I think you have to also extend the death of his father, right? He lost his father, his mother, and his wife in the space of six years. 273 00:29:23,928.8605 --> 00:29:31,658.8605 And in his time in Dakota, I believe Theodore Roosevelt had not a death wish, but a life wish. 274 00:29:32,498.86 --> 00:29:49,908.8605 I think if you have a loss that profound so early in your life, you really begin to understand the, the fragile nature of existence, that this life is only one you've got, and you've got to make the most of it. 275 00:29:50,338.8605 --> 00:29:53,409.798 And you can take risks Yeah. 276 00:29:53,543.8605 --> 00:29:59,863.8605 if they result in danger, it's way of knowing you're alive. 277 00:30:00,73.8605 --> 00:30:02,9.798 Um, now I Yeah. 278 00:30:02,463.8605 --> 00:30:06,513.8605 He combined that with what was, what was, what was obviously depression. 279 00:30:06,633.8605 --> 00:30:18,183.8605 I mean, the only person in his life that ever used the D word was, was his daughter, Alice, who would describe, you know, instead of dad is melancholy or blue or, you know, uh, not quite himself. 280 00:30:18,193.8595 --> 00:30:19,363.8595 She said, well, he's depressed. 281 00:30:19,443.8595 --> 00:30:20,369.798 I mean, he would Yeah. 282 00:30:21,383.8605 --> 00:30:30,593.8605 times in his life where he was depressed, you know, Certainly after the loss of, of his wife and, um, mother. 283 00:30:31,53.8605 --> 00:30:58,453.8605 Um, but a again, after the 1912 campaign, um, you know, he'll go through a pretty intensive period of depression I, you know, he knew how to react with courage in physical danger, but he didn't know, was, know how to react to personal crises and, and tragedies of, um, uh, and, and I think, and I think that, you know, you'll see this again and again throughout his life. 284 00:30:59,583.8605 --> 00:31:06,333.8605 when Edith was quite ill after the birth of Quentin and before he goes to, uh, Cuba. 285 00:31:07,283.8605 --> 00:31:09,363.8605 You know, it's not the greatest moment for T. 286 00:31:09,363.8605 --> 00:31:09,723.8605 R. 287 00:31:09,733.8595 --> 00:31:15,843.8595 And, uh, he doesn't really, um, doesn't live up to the ideals that you would hope he perhaps would. 288 00:31:16,133.8595 --> 00:31:25,413.8605 But you can also imagine that he's got this memory, this searing, horrible memory of the death of his wife and his mother. 289 00:31:25,798.8605 --> 00:31:29,184.798 And he just can't psychologically Yeah. 290 00:31:29,468.8605 --> 00:31:34,518.8605 And the best thing to do it for him to survive is to escape. 291 00:31:34,943.8605 --> 00:31:38,294.798 And to go, to go, to go to nature, to go Yeah. 292 00:31:38,433.8605 --> 00:31:42,403.8605 out, um, and not have to confront those, those feelings and those memories. 293 00:31:43,774.798 --> 00:31:52,224.798 You know, going along with that, in your book, you mentioned that TR is described as ashen by a colleague when you read the Second Telegram on February 13th. 294 00:31:53,24.798 --> 00:32:03,973.8595 And with that, could you tell us about the extraordinary account of Alice's delivery of Baby Alice as it was written by Tiara's, aunt Anna? Well, absolutely. 295 00:32:03,973.8595 --> 00:32:13,763.8605 I mean, I think, you know, let's, let's back up to February 11th, February 11th is the date that TR decides he's going to go to Albany. 296 00:32:14,138.8605 --> 00:32:15,558.8605 Because, of course, T. 297 00:32:15,558.8605 --> 00:32:15,848.8605 R. 298 00:32:15,868.8605 --> 00:32:16,498.8605 being T. 299 00:32:16,498.8605 --> 00:32:16,898.8605 R., 300 00:32:16,898.8605 --> 00:32:21,818.8605 he believes there'll be some poetic symbolism in the birth of his first daughter. 301 00:32:21,828.8605 --> 00:32:33,668.8605 Naturally, obviously, his daughter will be born on February 14th, Day, which is four years to the day that he and Alice had announced their engagement. 302 00:32:33,714.798 --> 00:32:34,44.798 Mm-Hmm. 303 00:32:34,448.8605 --> 00:32:36,218.8605 he's got a lot of work to do in Albany. 304 00:32:36,218.8605 --> 00:32:38,888.8605 He wants to finish it up before the birth of his first child. 305 00:32:38,888.8605 --> 00:32:45,893.8605 It's, of course, customary at that time that the That the father wouldn't necessarily be certainly not in the delivery room. 306 00:32:45,893.8605 --> 00:32:58,123.7605 So it's not unusual, but nonetheless, his mother isn't feeling well and his wife is due and they've had quite a lot of difficulty getting pregnant, you know, later, Edith will say that. 307 00:32:58,513.8605 --> 00:32:59,23.8605 That T. 308 00:32:59,23.8605 --> 00:32:59,263.8605 R. 309 00:32:59,263.8605 --> 00:33:08,733.8605 told her that that Allison had some sort of gynecological surgery or intervention in order to become pregnant in 1883. 310 00:33:08,773.8605 --> 00:33:12,243.8605 So, you know, they, and they didn't have children right away. 311 00:33:12,243.8605 --> 00:33:16,948.7605 So, something, you know, there's reasons, perhaps that he would not have wanted to travel. 312 00:33:17,118.8605 --> 00:33:19,734.798 All the way to Albany ahead of the birth, Yeah. 313 00:33:21,338.8605 --> 00:33:31,158.8605 and of course, gets that first telegram, which delivers the news that, um, that Alice is only fairly well, but that doesn't necessarily concern him. 314 00:33:31,158.8605 --> 00:33:33,628.8595 There's celebration, there are cigars. 315 00:33:33,958.8605 --> 00:33:36,374.798 And then that 2nd telegram Mm-Hmm. 316 00:33:36,598.8605 --> 00:33:39,838.8605 know the contents of the telegram, but we do know the reaction. 317 00:33:41,213.8605 --> 00:33:58,413.8105 another legislator, who, as you said, described Theodore Roosevelt as ashen, he went white and he lit out of the of the New York State Assembly went immediately to the train station and a journey that should have taken to 2. 318 00:33:58,413.8105 --> 00:33:59,283.8605 5 hours at most. 319 00:33:59,673.8605 --> 00:34:01,734.798 Takes five and a half Yeah. 320 00:34:02,663.8605 --> 00:34:16,44.798 the New York Times described the fog that had descended over New York City as suicidal weather that those that were prone to atmospheric conditions or depression Mm-Hmm. 321 00:34:16,123.8595 --> 00:34:21,563.7605 go outside because you couldn't see one step in front of your own face. 322 00:34:21,783.8605 --> 00:34:24,743.8605 You couldn't see the boats out in the harbor. 323 00:34:24,743.8605 --> 00:34:28,443.8605 You couldn't see, uh, really where you were stepping in the street. 324 00:34:28,453.8605 --> 00:34:34,803.8605 And he gets off at grand central station after that excruciating five and a half hour train ride. 325 00:34:34,803.8605 --> 00:34:37,863.8595 And now remember, he's sitting there only with his own thoughts. 326 00:34:38,303.8595 --> 00:34:42,673.8595 And he has to be thinking of that train ride he took from Cambridge. 327 00:34:43,18.8605 --> 00:34:47,114.798 To New York City upon getting the news that his father Yes. 328 00:34:47,748.8605 --> 00:34:49,998.8605 and doesn't make it in time. 329 00:34:50,128.8605 --> 00:34:53,148.8605 He doesn't make it to the deathbed of his beloved father. 330 00:34:53,358.8605 --> 00:35:00,178.8595 And here it is again, 6 years later, he is on an excruciating 5 and a half hour train ride to New York City. 331 00:35:00,298.8595 --> 00:35:01,354.798 He gets Yeah. 332 00:35:02,38.8595 --> 00:35:08,958.8605 dashes up to 6 West 57th Street where Elliot has said, There is a curse on this house. 333 00:35:09,158.8605 --> 00:35:12,578.8605 Mother is dying and Alice is dying too. 334 00:35:13,64.798 --> 00:35:13,474.798 Yeah. 335 00:35:13,608.8605 --> 00:35:17,638.8605 up to the 3rd floor, attends to Alice, and at 2. 336 00:35:17,638.9605 --> 00:35:24,248.8605 30 in the morning on February 14th, 1884, he's called to the bedside of his beloved mother. 337 00:35:25,298.8605 --> 00:35:32,288.8605 passes away in the, in the very early morning hours of February 14th, and then back up to the third floor, T. 338 00:35:32,288.8605 --> 00:35:32,528.8605 R. 339 00:35:32,538.8595 --> 00:35:43,798.8605 goes to hold and clutch in his arms Alice for 12 hours, refusing to let go until she too succumbs and dies at about 1. 340 00:35:43,798.9605 --> 00:35:45,778.8605 30 in the afternoon Mm day. 341 00:35:46,258.8605 --> 00:35:51,708.8605 It's, almost, um, it's, it's, it's unbelievable. 342 00:35:52,568.8605 --> 00:35:54,188.8605 and, you know, I think Aunt Anna. 343 00:35:54,523.8605 --> 00:35:56,73.8605 writes this extraordinary letter. 344 00:35:56,73.8605 --> 00:36:10,33.8605 She says, she describes the circumstance of the birth of Alice and says, uh, that when baby Alice is born, doctor laments that the, that it's, it's a girl. 345 00:36:10,403.8605 --> 00:36:19,384.798 And Alice says, I love a little girl, uh, and is able to hold her baby in her arms and is able to recognize that hmm. 346 00:36:19,733.8605 --> 00:36:21,33.8605 had this child. 347 00:36:21,323.8605 --> 00:36:24,183.8595 But of course, by the time that Theodore Roosevelt reaches her. 348 00:36:24,643.8605 --> 00:36:27,693.8605 He shall never again be conscious, um, on this earth. 349 00:36:27,723.8605 --> 00:36:31,853.8605 And, and, you know, it's, it's interesting also they, they named the baby Alice. 350 00:36:32,123.8605 --> 00:36:33,484.798 You know, this thought Yeah. 351 00:36:34,283.8605 --> 00:36:40,253.8595 her from his soul is really countered by the fact that she's named Alice. 352 00:36:41,233.8605 --> 00:36:47,23.8605 I reveal for the first time in the loves of Theodore Roosevelt, another pretty extraordinary event. 353 00:36:47,403.8605 --> 00:37:01,423.8605 Um, well, I was at Sagamore Hill doing research with Laura Centarati, this wonderful park ranger who, uh, was a caretaker at the, and a, and a curator at the Sagamore Hill for many years. 354 00:37:02,313.8605 --> 00:37:09,293.8605 And I think we saw a record that said Alice Hare, nine months, Alice Hare, eight months. 355 00:37:10,528.8605 --> 00:37:20,328.8605 she said, well, do we really want to see this? I said, I want to see anything and everything related to Alice, anything that exists, because there's so few things in the world left of hers. 356 00:37:20,784.798 --> 00:37:21,104.798 Yeah. 357 00:37:21,243.8605 --> 00:37:26,383.8605 pull this out and it's a, it's a blue kind of teal, almost Tiffany like box. 358 00:37:26,383.8605 --> 00:37:41,433.8605 It's not a Tiffany box, but it has that kind of color and we opened it up and there on the top was indeed the hair of Alice as a baby at eight months and then at eight or nine years old and clearly in her mother's handwriting the hair was there. 359 00:37:43,653.8605 --> 00:37:49,913.8605 that a very large swath Alice Hathaway Lee's hair. 360 00:37:50,618.8605 --> 00:37:55,24.798 there was a note in Theodore Roosevelt's unmistakable Mm hmm. 361 00:37:55,778.8605 --> 00:38:00,188.8605 said the hair of my sweet wife Alice after death. 362 00:38:00,918.8605 --> 00:38:09,868.86 So after the death of Alice, Theodore Roosevelt cut a large swath of his wife's hair. 363 00:38:09,868.86 --> 00:38:19,928.8605 He took a small amount and they created a necklace for baby Alice to wear during her christening two days after the funeral at Fifth Avenue Presbyterian. 364 00:38:20,463.8605 --> 00:38:27,503.8605 And then Theodore Roosevelt kept that keepsake, along with several pictures of Alice, in that box. 365 00:38:28,263.8605 --> 00:38:31,33.8605 rest of his life and out of Edith's view. 366 00:38:31,133.8605 --> 00:38:34,793.8605 She never knew that it existed and never discovered it. 367 00:38:35,203.8605 --> 00:38:39,183.8605 Um, it's been lost to history for all this many years. 368 00:38:39,513.8595 --> 00:38:52,24.798 And I think it's, it's almost, you know, that is, is evidence of the fact that Theodore Roosevelt did not indeed dislodge Alice from his Yeah. 369 00:38:52,63.8605 --> 00:38:57,313.8595 fact, it was so painful that he kept this keepsake hidden from Edith. 370 00:38:57,713.8605 --> 00:38:59,123.8605 Uh, for the rest of his life. 371 00:39:00,104.798 --> 00:39:03,724.798 Yeah, I've never heard that story before, uh, before reading it in your book, too. 372 00:39:03,724.798 --> 00:39:09,154.798 That was kind of a real revelation to how people could have passed that up all those years. 373 00:39:10,24.798 --> 00:39:10,464.798 Yeah. 374 00:39:10,913.8605 --> 00:39:11,53.8605 Yeah. 375 00:39:11,53.8605 --> 00:39:13,663.8605 I don't think he dislodged Alice Lee from his soul. 376 00:39:13,668.8605 --> 00:39:14,514.798 And I, I Yeah. 377 00:39:15,373.8605 --> 00:39:17,683.8605 makes me think even more of Edith in a, in a way. 378 00:39:17,683.8605 --> 00:39:24,473.8605 I mean, she, she was trs wife and had to live with. 379 00:39:24,828.8605 --> 00:39:37,888.8605 That and had to live with the living embodiment of, of his first wife in the form of their stepdaughter obviously caused a lot of friction and their relationship, which is a whole nother fascinating of discussion. 380 00:39:38,278.8605 --> 00:39:47,138.8605 But she also, you know, she had to live forever in the memory of a woman who would be 22 in Theodore Roosevelt's mind. 381 00:39:47,168.8605 --> 00:39:48,178.8605 I mean. 382 00:39:48,238.9605 --> 00:39:57,448.8605 I think they, they, they that incredibly loving an a great marriage. 383 00:39:57,718.8605 --> 00:40:11,868.8605 Uh, but tragedy preceding their m It almost makes what they accomplish together as a couple, um, even more incredible. 384 00:40:12,894.798 --> 00:40:15,144.797 Well, you mentioned already that when T. 385 00:40:15,144.798 --> 00:40:15,274.798 R. 386 00:40:15,274.798 --> 00:40:25,144.797 was confronted with status of fatherhood and being a a widower, over that his, instead of rushing headlong into it, he did the opposite. 387 00:40:25,144.797 --> 00:40:25,764.797 He ran. 388 00:40:25,872.8005 --> 00:40:37,368.8595 mean, And when he left his daughter, Alice, with his sister, Bambi, can you describe her extraordinary role and responsibilities that she assumed? for the system. 389 00:40:37,468.8595 --> 00:40:40,188.8605 Well, BAMI, I mean, TR says it best. 390 00:40:40,198.8605 --> 00:40:42,208.8605 BAMI is the feminine atlas. 391 00:40:42,498.8605 --> 00:40:45,158.8605 On whose shoulders the whole world rests. 392 00:40:45,188.8605 --> 00:40:50,38.8605 I mean, for Theodore Roosevelt, BAMI was a substitute mother. 393 00:40:50,198.8605 --> 00:41:03,488.8605 Um, BAMI was a only three years older than, than TR, but somehow, uh, seemingly all is the person who was there to help him do exactly what he needed at the time that he needed it. 394 00:41:03,728.8605 --> 00:41:06,668.8605 And boy, did he need her in 1884. 395 00:41:06,908.8605 --> 00:41:11,728.8605 I mean, let's not forget BAMI had lost her father and BAMI had lost her mother. 396 00:41:12,48.8605 --> 00:41:12,634.798 And Yeah. 397 00:41:12,678.8605 --> 00:41:14,748.8605 lost her very close Sister-in-law too. 398 00:41:14,748.8605 --> 00:41:22,98.8605 I mean, she had experienced loss, but yet it's, it's not Theodore Roosevelt who sells six West 57th Street. 399 00:41:22,103.8605 --> 00:41:25,578.8605 It's not Theodore Roosevelt who buys 4 22 Madison Avenue. 400 00:41:25,578.8605 --> 00:41:34,278.8605 And it's not Theodore Roosevelt, who cares? For the baby, for the better part of three years, all those three incredible things are done by Bambi Roosevelt. 401 00:41:34,648.8605 --> 00:41:50,738.8605 You know, she's, she is the one who really, um, not only takes care of the family and I mean, you know, you think the death of the father would mean that the new patriarch would naturally be Theodore Roosevelt. 402 00:41:51,208.8605 --> 00:41:59,758.8605 And it was in a sense, But it was BAMI who did all the roles and responsibilities of the patriarch of the family. 403 00:42:00,28.8605 --> 00:42:10,548.8605 It, to enable Theodore to really be the almost symbolic patriarch of the family and they all funneled their energy into and toward him and his success. 404 00:42:11,608.8605 --> 00:42:13,98.8605 it's, it's really extraordinary. 405 00:42:13,98.8605 --> 00:42:13,988.8605 I mean, BAMI. 406 00:42:14,278.8605 --> 00:42:25,108.8605 Uh, is so selfless in her giving of her time and her energy and her intellect, um, at every point, but, but no point more critical than 1884. 407 00:42:25,138.8605 --> 00:42:31,348.8595 And the other thing I'll say just quickly is Bambi knows she needs to let Theodore go. 408 00:42:32,343.8605 --> 00:42:38,283.8605 mourn and recover and be in nature, but she also knows she how to bring him back. 409 00:42:38,873.8605 --> 00:42:39,534.797 You Mm hmm. 410 00:42:40,783.8605 --> 00:42:46,893.8605 So 11 letters came into, uh, the purview of the Theodore Roosevelt Association. 411 00:42:46,903.8605 --> 00:42:50,818.8605 Lieutenant Colonel Greg Wynn, who now serves As the president of the T. 412 00:42:50,818.8605 --> 00:42:51,58.8605 R. 413 00:42:51,58.8605 --> 00:42:51,388.8605 A. 414 00:42:51,668.8605 --> 00:42:54,588.8605 Extraordinary man, a good friend and a wonderful T. 415 00:42:54,588.8605 --> 00:42:54,798.8605 R. 416 00:42:54,808.8605 --> 00:42:55,398.8605 Scholar. 417 00:42:55,668.8605 --> 00:43:06,388.8595 You know, Greg was doing some, some digging in the archives of while I was writing the, this book and miraculously found 11 letters. 418 00:43:06,858.8605 --> 00:43:13,508.8605 Locked in a safe at the TRA that had not seen the light of day since 1954. 419 00:43:13,534.798 --> 00:43:14,24.798 Wow. 420 00:43:14,244.798 --> 00:43:24,98.8595 Mm called the discovery of those letters perhaps the most significant discovery since Theodore Roosevelt's death in 1919. 421 00:43:24,398.8595 --> 00:43:29,388.8605 So, and, and those 11 letters, I'll tell you briefly, several of the letters are from 1885. 422 00:43:29,778.8605 --> 00:43:32,858.8605 You know, the dark year in Theodore Roosevelt's life. 423 00:43:33,283.8605 --> 00:43:37,803.8605 He's not writing much in his diary other than what he's shot or what he's hunted. 424 00:43:37,813.8605 --> 00:43:40,953.8605 He, there's really no introspective reflection. 425 00:43:40,993.8605 --> 00:43:44,563.8595 There's no letters being exchanged with hundreds of people. 426 00:43:44,563.8605 --> 00:43:47,143.8605 So you, you know, we know, we know what he's doing. 427 00:43:47,153.8595 --> 00:43:55,723.8605 He's, he's recovering from the deaths, um, at the Elkhorn, but what is he thinking? And now we have for the first time. 428 00:43:55,993.8605 --> 00:44:03,843.8605 Some of Theodore Roosevelt's thoughts in the forms of these letters, and there's an extraordinary letter from April of 1885, in which T. 429 00:44:03,843.8605 --> 00:44:04,53.8605 R. 430 00:44:04,53.8605 --> 00:44:19,373.8605 describes how after, uh, after two horses get, take off from the Elkhorn, he, he has to take off after that, after two strayed horses, and he realizes he's left without any gloves or a hat. 431 00:44:19,823.8605 --> 00:44:22,524.798 And a snowstorm comes hmm. 432 00:44:22,723.8605 --> 00:44:37,783.8605 suddenly that he has to spend the night in a dwelling with a Texan cowboy and realizes that the Texan cowboy has treated him first rate and he, he, he's got a great admiration for the Texan cowboy. 433 00:44:38,264.798 --> 00:44:38,464.798 Yeah. 434 00:44:38,483.8595 --> 00:44:49,664.798 he talks about how this, this place is a restorative tonic, um, how he is, how he is feeling in the Badlands and to whom is he confessing those feelings? You hmm. 435 00:44:49,708.8605 --> 00:44:51,8.8605 and it's BAMI who knows. 436 00:44:51,48.8605 --> 00:44:54,278.8605 He's keeping him updated on political events back home. 437 00:44:54,278.8605 --> 00:44:57,178.8595 She's keeping him updated on national politics. 438 00:44:57,228.8605 --> 00:45:05,538.8595 She's describing some of the things that are happening and when BAMI will discover, because she's not told by Theodore when she discovers. 439 00:45:05,823.8605 --> 00:45:09,463.8605 That, um, that deed they've been secretly engaged. 440 00:45:09,693.8605 --> 00:45:25,713.8605 She writes an extraordinary letter to, uh, Edith and basically says, Edith, it's so great to see that Theodore is re re emerging into the life he needs to be in, which is politics. 441 00:45:25,904.797 --> 00:45:26,174.797 Yeah. 442 00:45:26,223.8605 --> 00:45:35,263.8605 needs to be in the public, he needs to be active in civic engagement, and you are going to have to share him with the world. 443 00:45:35,263.9605 --> 00:45:38,64.798 It's very Yeah, yeah, that's very insightful. 444 00:45:38,104.798 --> 00:45:53,638.7605 I think on her part, just, I was thinking that too, reading those, um, your account of those letters, it must have been very satisfying for Theodore Roosevelt to report back to his sister, you know, all these, the, these manly, virile activities, uh, you know, the, place. 445 00:45:53,744.798 --> 00:46:08,784.798 know, almost bragging about the, the hardships he's enduring, uh, how satisfying that must be to the sister who saw him suffer so terribly as a child, uh, must have felt like he was, you know, He was overcoming a lot of those deficiencies. 446 00:46:09,138.8605 --> 00:46:11,228.8605 Well, and Kurt, you know, she suffered too. 447 00:46:11,228.8605 --> 00:46:12,314.798 I think Right. 448 00:46:12,578.8605 --> 00:46:24,638.8595 a spinal defect yeah, serious that her grandmother Patsy would describe how BAMI could not stand for more than 30 seconds before a countenance of pain would come over her face. 449 00:46:24,768.8595 --> 00:46:33,708.8605 And, you know, I think it's from BAMI that TR learned, um, to will his way through physical pain. 450 00:46:34,134.798 --> 00:46:34,394.798 Yeah. 451 00:46:34,673.8605 --> 00:46:54,693.8615 and I think by incidentally, it's from Middy, Middy adopted this philosophy after the death of Thee, live for the living yes, I Yeah, mean, that is the, that is, that is resilience, yeah, is the quality we most associate with Theodore Roosevelt, um, courage and resilience. 452 00:46:54,783.8605 --> 00:46:58,513.8605 And it is really from BAMI that he learned courage. 453 00:46:58,828.8605 --> 00:47:00,728.8605 Especially over physical pain. 454 00:47:00,948.8605 --> 00:47:05,778.8605 And it is from that he learned resilience that life is for the living, not for the dead. 455 00:47:05,778.8605 --> 00:47:12,48.8605 You need to put one foot in front of the other, no matter what happens to you, no matter how bad it is and find and fight your way through it. 456 00:47:12,489.798 --> 00:47:13,419.798 yeah, yeah. 457 00:47:13,419.798 --> 00:47:16,659.798 That example of perseverance and endurance. 458 00:47:16,709.798 --> 00:47:22,459.798 Um, you know, I almost learned that more from her than any man in his life. 459 00:47:22,539.798 --> 00:47:31,839.797 It seems one of my favorite quotes of TR is, uh, throughout history, no man, uh, who ever lived a life of ease left a name worth remembering. 460 00:47:32,159.797 --> 00:47:35,619.797 Um, that's, you know, and I think of Bambi there too. 461 00:47:35,619.897 --> 00:47:38,784.698 It's just with all these extraordinary ways in which she is. 462 00:47:39,384.798 --> 00:47:40,614.798 leading the family. 463 00:47:40,614.798 --> 00:47:49,754.798 It's, it's easy to forget all of the physical pain and suffering that she experiences every hour of, of her life. 464 00:47:49,784.797 --> 00:48:03,84.798 Uh, but yeah, she's managing the, you know, the supervising the construction of what's going to become Sagamore Hill while he's out in the Dakotas, uh, hunting and, and she's, you, you, you, this is really interesting. 465 00:48:03,84.798 --> 00:48:05,544.798 You, you compare BAMI. 466 00:48:06,194.798 --> 00:48:17,124.797 Bammy's, uh, influence as a political strategist and advisor to Robert Kennedy's role with JFK, I thought that's a really interesting comparison to make. 467 00:48:17,833.8605 --> 00:48:21,793.8605 I, I think, you know, um, Alice, the daughter said it best. 468 00:48:21,793.8605 --> 00:48:25,283.8605 Alice Roosevelt Longworth said, had had BAMI lived. 469 00:48:26,238.8605 --> 00:48:30,558.8605 Had BAMI been a man, she, not TR, would have been president. 470 00:48:30,754.797 --> 00:48:31,114.797 Yeah. 471 00:48:31,448.8605 --> 00:48:34,468.8605 none other than Eleanor Roosevelt agreed with that assessment. 472 00:48:34,838.8605 --> 00:48:41,348.8595 I think the only thing that held BAMI back from accomplishing more in her time was her gender. 473 00:48:42,98.8595 --> 00:48:50,708.8605 And the fact that she selflessly all of her faith and energy into her brother and pushed him forward in every way that she could. 474 00:48:50,708.8605 --> 00:49:05,588.8605 I mean, you think, you know, uh, it's what's, what's amazing as I did the research, I was I mean, I had this argument and thought that Bambi was important, but I kept discovering things that I didn't know she was connected to. 475 00:49:06,18.8605 --> 00:49:09,338.8605 It's Bambi who knew Richard Harding Davis. 476 00:49:09,818.8605 --> 00:49:24,238.8605 And Richard Richard Harding Davis to Theodore Roosevelt while TR is police commissioner will, of course, Richard Harding Davis will go on to write about TR and Cuba and then we'll slip a lot of those stories back to the press and emphasize. 477 00:49:24,583.8605 --> 00:49:25,763.8605 The importance of TR. 478 00:49:25,793.8605 --> 00:49:47,843.8605 So here, his sisters are quite literally working almost as RFK to JFK, political advisor and, and strategist and press secretary, you know, it's BAMI who meets Charles McKim and will introduce Charles Edith and Charles McKim will become the architect of the renovation of the white house. 479 00:49:48,223.8605 --> 00:49:54,233.8605 Of course, it's BAMI who suggests to Theodore, you really ought to talk to Bellamy's store. 480 00:49:54,728.8605 --> 00:50:03,878.8605 About your, hm, lack of prospects, and it's bammy who's exchanging letters with tr talking about the coming election. 481 00:50:04,208.8605 --> 00:50:10,4.797 Um, and, and how perhaps if he's to get on board the McKinley train, he yeah. 482 00:50:10,828.8605 --> 00:50:11,598.8605 Employment. 483 00:50:11,938.8605 --> 00:50:21,68.8605 I mean, she, she is architecting every move that he will make, uh, you know, she, it's BAMI that supports the gubernatorial run. 484 00:50:21,508.8605 --> 00:50:31,688.8605 BAMI doesn't support the move to vice president, uh, you know, Edith and BAMI, they all think this is a terrible job and it obviously was going to be except for fate. 485 00:50:32,53.8605 --> 00:50:47,523.8605 Um, you know, and, and it's just really, I had a hard time finding a moment when Bambi or Edith Connie were not involved in something that Theodore Roosevelt decided to do or not to do. 486 00:50:49,23.8605 --> 00:50:59,743.8605 Bambi had some influence in this next question, um, TR would return to New York for various visits and encountered his first love, Edith. 487 00:50:59,743.9605 --> 00:51:06,807.824 Could you describe their courtship? Hehehehe, it was, it was like everything in Theodore Roosevelt's life. 488 00:51:07,117.924 --> 00:51:08,417.924 Sudden and impulsive. 489 00:51:08,418.024 --> 00:51:16,257.924 Um, Theodore did return multiple times to New York, of course. 490 00:51:16,287.924 --> 00:51:20,347.923 He didn't stay every day in North Dakota for the better part of those two years. 491 00:51:20,697.924 --> 00:51:25,557.924 But a particularly significant moment happened in October of 1885. 492 00:51:25,557.924 --> 00:51:30,937.924 He came back for a hunt at what would become Sagamore Hill. 493 00:51:31,307.924 --> 00:51:54,822.923 Um, he he he uh, he He encountered Edith as Theodore is coming down the stairwell and Edith enters the home and suddenly confronted in front of him is the one person he had explicitly said to Bambi, I do not want to see. 494 00:51:55,262.924 --> 00:52:04,982.924 I think of course, you know, probably talked about him on this podcast many times, right? He's pacing the Ferris general store and the bedroom upstairs. 495 00:52:05,152.924 --> 00:52:06,632.923 I have no constancy. 496 00:52:06,632.924 --> 00:52:08,12.924 I have no constancy. 497 00:52:08,217.924 --> 00:52:28,967.924 He knows that if he sees Edith, all the feelings, all of the mm hm, come rushing back and there will be nothing that he can do to live up to this Victorian code of never remarrying and, and of course, honor, you know, somehow dishonoring Alice and Alice's memory by By reuniting with Edith. 498 00:52:29,407.924 --> 00:52:36,97.924 Now what I find interesting is who set that up? You know, we don't, history doesn't know, 'cause he's told Bammy, I don't wanna see her. 499 00:52:36,97.924 --> 00:52:42,457.924 And there is some evidence that Bammy was not particularly won over by Edith coming back in. 500 00:52:42,457.924 --> 00:52:49,337.924 I mean, remember with Alice? Alice, they had a woman who was willing to share Theodore with them. 501 00:52:50,77.924 --> 00:52:53,777.924 Edith, know, she's, she's been the bonus sister. 502 00:52:53,797.924 --> 00:52:55,987.924 She's always on the outside looking in. 503 00:52:55,997.924 --> 00:53:00,197.924 She's the one hiding her shabby toys when the Roosevelt's come over. 504 00:53:00,313.8615 --> 00:53:06,357.923 mm hm, she's the one who doesn't get to go on the grand tours of Europe and, and, and elsewhere. 505 00:53:06,652.924 --> 00:53:14,583.8948333 You know, I would imagine there's a little bit of tension there when Edith comes back into the fold and suddenly yeah, yeah. 506 00:53:14,583.8948333 --> 00:53:14,983.7615 Mm hm. 507 00:53:15,52.923 --> 00:53:20,332.924 been a little bit on the outside looking in is the most important woman in Theodora's life. 508 00:53:20,772.924 --> 00:53:24,892.924 Um, my theory, and I couldn't prove it, but I'll go ahead and share it. 509 00:53:25,172.924 --> 00:53:30,532.924 I think that Aunt Anna is the prime suspect in who leaked the engagement. 510 00:53:30,937.924 --> 00:53:41,117.924 To the New York Times, I think on Anna is the one who wrote the incredibly devastating account of, of Alice's birth and, and Alice's death. 511 00:53:41,497.924 --> 00:53:54,557.923 And, uh, I think on Anna was the 1 who knew that Edith was the 1 who could bring Theodore back and make was the 1 who even set up that meeting because it probably wasn't me. 512 00:53:54,807.924 --> 00:53:58,457.924 Uh, but there it was and so very quickly within 6 weeks. 513 00:53:58,792.924 --> 00:54:06,852.924 They were secretly engaged, told them, told hardly anyone, and Edith of course goes to Europe, I mean moves to Europe while T. 514 00:54:06,852.924 --> 00:54:07,2.924 R. 515 00:54:07,2.924 --> 00:54:15,312.923 goes back to Dakota, now that is holding up the subterfuge, but what I love is that of course this reinvigorates T. 516 00:54:15,312.924 --> 00:54:15,652.924 R. 517 00:54:16,12.924 --> 00:54:18,662.924 There's, uh, two bursts at the Elkhorn. 518 00:54:18,692.924 --> 00:54:22,352.924 Suddenly the Elkhorn, his respite is becoming more like a daycare. 519 00:54:22,552.924 --> 00:54:25,213.8615 Uh, you know, he's, he's I like that line. 520 00:54:26,152.924 --> 00:54:31,142.9235 and suddenly he's talking about this Saint Austin, uh, of, of Patty Selms. 521 00:54:31,142.9235 --> 00:54:38,83.8615 I mean, clearly something's been awakened in our Theodore Roosevelt that he's, he's seeing women with new eyes again Yeah. 522 00:54:39,2.924 --> 00:54:43,602.923 in a way that he really wasn't able to during that 12 to 18 months of mourning. 523 00:54:44,53.8615 --> 00:54:44,433.8615 Yeah. 524 00:54:44,463.8615 --> 00:54:44,793.8615 Yeah. 525 00:54:45,183.8615 --> 00:54:47,733.8615 It's interesting you bring up, uh, aunt Anna. 526 00:54:47,853.8615 --> 00:54:49,923.8615 Uh, this would be Ty's sister. 527 00:54:50,222.9573334 --> 00:54:53,502.924 Coach. 528 00:54:53,738.8615 --> 00:54:59,853.8615 young Ededie are both being homeschooled as kids under the tutelage of Aunt Anna. 529 00:54:59,973.8615 --> 00:55:04,503.8615 And uh, so you said really from the beginning they were kindred book lovers. 530 00:55:04,738.8615 --> 00:55:11,618.8615 I like how you, bring up, uh, Louisa May Alcott's Little Women, and you can't help but think how, how young T. 531 00:55:11,618.8615 --> 00:55:11,778.8615 D. 532 00:55:11,778.8615 --> 00:55:14,883.7615 would obviously, this would evoke those, those feelings. 533 00:55:15,253.8615 --> 00:55:24,523.861 Those, uh, strong women characters, you know, holding the family together while the father is off at war, doing his duty, and, you know, that would clearly resonate with, uh, with a young T. 534 00:55:24,523.861 --> 00:55:24,793.8605 D. 535 00:55:24,933.8605 --> 00:55:39,913.8615 Um, I was gonna ask if, if there's anything more you wanted to share about, uh, those childhood experiences, uh, that Edith had with the Roosevelt siblings, how important that was in those connections, uh, later in life. 536 00:55:40,397.925 --> 00:55:43,108.8615 Well, he just had a much harder life, right? Yeah. 537 00:55:43,357.923 --> 00:55:49,867.924 has an alcoholic father and she's watching the degradation of his reputation in their family fortune. 538 00:55:49,867.924 --> 00:56:10,552.9235 And, um, Uh, you know, she's got to be looking on with some degree of jealousy at the, at the Roosevelt's, uh, seemingly perfect family, um, you know, joyful and happy together, even though, of course, you have this, you know, bitter divide, a, a house divided and a nation divided during the Civil War, and yet Middy and Thee disagree without being Disagreeable. 539 00:56:10,552.9235 --> 00:56:14,742.9235 What an incredible example, um, to their children. 540 00:56:14,742.9235 --> 00:56:16,692.9235 And, and Edith doesn't have that. 541 00:56:16,722.9235 --> 00:56:20,512.9235 You know, Edith, Edith is growing up in a very different circumstance. 542 00:56:20,512.9235 --> 00:56:26,252.9225 I, you brought up the literary references that, that I make in The Loves of Theodore Roosevelt to little women. 543 00:56:26,542.9235 --> 00:56:27,912.923 And of course, uh, T. 544 00:56:27,912.923 --> 00:56:28,72.9225 R. 545 00:56:28,82.9225 --> 00:56:29,182.9235 's interest in Poe. 546 00:56:29,572.9235 --> 00:56:42,812.9235 I think, you're a sickly child, particularly in an era where there's, you know, incredible, uh, smog and dust and, I mean, just horrible sanitary conditions in New York. 547 00:56:43,82.9235 --> 00:56:46,952.9235 You know, Theodore Roosevelt is living a life of the mind. 548 00:56:47,322.9225 --> 00:56:49,932.9235 He's not the Rushmore Roosevelt that we know. 549 00:56:50,277.9235 --> 00:56:55,817.9235 And think of today, he's, living life through books and imagination. 550 00:56:56,67.9235 --> 00:57:12,228.861 And I think in many times in his life, he did see things that were happening the lens of, of the plot of a novel, or, uh, I mean, he wrote his life is almost in that kind of, Mm hmm. 551 00:57:12,307.9235 --> 00:57:19,557.9235 wrote Theodore Roosevelt story and submitted it to Simon and Schuster as the next book after the loves of Theodore Roosevelt, it would get rejected. 552 00:57:19,558.0235 --> 00:57:19,572.8235 It's. 553 00:57:19,722.9235 --> 00:57:36,742.9225 It's too outlandish, too many twists and turns and, you know, yet he does, you know, I could see him relating to his family experience and his father's absence in the way that they, in the way that is written in Little Women. 554 00:57:37,12.9235 --> 00:57:41,392.9235 I could see, you know, he's bringing up Poe at various points in his life. 555 00:57:42,142.986 --> 00:57:59,798.861 You know, I write the poem Annabelle Lee in The Loves of Theodore Roosevelt because you have to wonder is the, is the lost Lenore, is the lost Annabelle Lee, is he, is he thinking of Alice or is he thinking of Edith Yeah. 556 00:58:00,212.985 --> 00:58:21,612.986 these moments? Because a strange way you, you know, there's this poetic symmetry to the idea that after this tragic loss, is brought back to the woman that would restabilize his life and allow him to accomplish these extraordinary things that, uh, he wouldn't have been able to do alone. 557 00:58:21,938.861 --> 00:58:30,18.861 Now, in your book you list Edith's accomplishments and her influence as First Lady. 558 00:58:30,428.861 --> 00:58:36,498.761 Could you describe some of those for our listeners? How much time do you have, Larry? I mean, Ha ha. 559 00:58:38,872.986 --> 00:58:41,82.986 I mean, well, let's just we'll just go through that. 560 00:58:41,82.986 --> 00:58:42,262.9855 We'll play the hits here. 561 00:58:42,262.9855 --> 00:58:49,212.986 I mean, Edith is the 1st 1st lady to hire a social secretary bell hanger. 562 00:58:49,422.986 --> 00:58:56,272.985 This will revolutionize the role and every single successor from that moment on, we'll have a social secretary. 563 00:58:56,657.986 --> 00:59:12,917.887 Edith, uh, arranges for the reconstruction of the White House, hires the architect, creates a, a, a difference between the executive, she creates a place from which the executive function of government in the United States occurs. 564 00:59:13,287.886 --> 00:59:15,947.885 She has a family, you know, she has six children. 565 00:59:15,957.885 --> 00:59:24,117.886 Now, not all of them are in the house at the same time, but she wants a private residence and a public component of the White House. 566 00:59:24,582.886 --> 00:59:28,322.886 So they will create the East Wing and the West Wing. 567 00:59:28,632.886 --> 00:59:32,452.886 They will create what becomes the, the Oval Office. 568 00:59:32,612.886 --> 00:59:38,28.761 And they will talk about how this is no longer the Executive Mansion, but the White Mm hmm. 569 00:59:38,212.886 --> 00:59:42,742.885 Uh, she will create a Colonial Garden, which will later become the Rose Garden. 570 00:59:43,92.886 --> 00:59:51,647.886 Uh, you know, she will design, uh, The offices on the second floor in the private residence and literally put hers right next to Theodore. 571 00:59:51,647.886 --> 00:59:56,202.886 So she's the first person he sees in the morning and the last person he talks to at night. 572 00:59:57,97.886 --> 00:59:57,798.761 read Yeah. 573 00:59:57,987.886 --> 01:00:01,997.886 newspapers a day and talk through every part of the news that he needs to know. 574 01:00:02,187.886 --> 01:00:07,257.886 She goes on long walks and advises him on every major appointment and every major decision. 575 01:00:07,597.886 --> 01:00:12,187.885 She does some other things that are, are aesthetic, but still to this day, influential. 576 01:00:12,497.886 --> 01:00:21,977.886 She collects the first China that becomes the White House China collection, and then will go back in prior administrations and have the donation of those administrations China. 577 01:00:22,237.886 --> 01:00:25,488.761 She'll establish the White House First lady's portraits, Mm hmm. 578 01:00:26,202.886 --> 01:00:41,852.885 White House to this day, she begins salons, um, which, you know, Jacqueline Kennedy will become renowned for the salons that they hold the artists and the, the writers and the musicians who will come and play at the White House that starts with Edith. 579 01:00:42,582.885 --> 01:00:43,362.886 They entertain 40. 580 01:00:45,437.886 --> 01:00:53,878.761 People in their first year in the White House, uh, you know, and she does all of this with grace and Yes. 581 01:00:54,47.886 --> 01:00:55,797.886 almost completely unaffected. 582 01:00:55,797.886 --> 01:01:07,697.886 1 of the 1 of my favorite quotes about it from Margaret Chandler, who was a friend of theirs from the early days of civil service commissioner all the way through the end of their life. 583 01:01:07,697.886 --> 01:01:12,157.886 And Margaret Chandler will say that, you know, that of Edith. 584 01:01:12,782.886 --> 01:01:19,242.886 ,just as the camera comes into focus, Edith steps out of view as the shutter is clicked. 585 01:01:19,542.886 --> 01:01:22,448.761 And that is, that's Edith, right? She just Yes. 586 01:01:22,822.885 --> 01:01:26,292.886 she's unaffected and, uh, by the hoopla. 587 01:01:26,312.886 --> 01:01:31,792.886 She enjoys perhaps being at the center of activity and attention, but she doesn't need it. 588 01:01:32,172.886 --> 01:01:43,962.885 Like TR does, he's the politician, he's the extrovert, you know, she's the quiet and reserved and very determined and extraordinarily intelligent, um, uh, advisor. 589 01:01:43,962.985 --> 01:01:45,978.761 I just want Yeah. 590 01:01:46,68.761 --> 01:02:00,868.761 Yeah, there's a, Council a definite passing of the baton there from, from BAMI to Edith once, as soon as they're married, um, and that's really a very similar role, I guess, that BAMI had played, is that behind the scenes influencer. 591 01:02:01,528.761 --> 01:02:06,298.761 Uh, who, uh, just out of view, that's, uh, Just out what, Yeah. 592 01:02:06,398.761 --> 01:02:12,368.761 the beginning of the administration, right? McKinley is assassinated and Ida McKinley needs to move out of the White House. 593 01:02:12,368.761 --> 01:02:14,874.635 They wanna respectfully give her time to Yeah. 594 01:02:14,874.735 --> 01:02:16,111.3353333 Yeah. 595 01:02:16,111.3353333 --> 01:02:17,347.9356667 Yeah. 596 01:02:17,347.9356667 --> 01:02:18,584.536 Yeah. 597 01:02:18,888.761 --> 01:02:25,698.761 administration are at 1733 N Street BA's Home, which becomes known in the press as the little White House. 598 01:02:26,98.761 --> 01:02:33,828.761 I mean, she quite literally, uh, her home became the White House, uh, because of the president, uh, president's presence. 599 01:02:34,188.76 --> 01:02:38,638.76 And, uh, you know, she'll continue to advise her brother, but it is always a delicate dance. 600 01:02:38,648.76 --> 01:02:45,828.76 Where's Edith's role? Where's Banny's role? What's Connie's role? But they all continue to be, uh, in support of him. 601 01:02:47,324.636 --> 01:02:52,834.636 you, you're right that Edith, Edith was in the room where it happened because she designed it that way. 602 01:02:53,64.635 --> 01:03:02,84.636 Uh, and you also share this quote, uh, whenever I go against her judgment, I regret it, obviously talking about Edith there. 603 01:03:02,84.636 --> 01:03:11,819.636 So, uh, would you, uh, care to elaborate on Edith's, um, influence, um, on Roosevelt during his presidency in particular. 604 01:03:12,678.761 --> 01:03:16,338.761 Well, it's it's take that, you know, whenever I go against her judgment, I regret it. 605 01:03:16,418.761 --> 01:03:17,524.636 Um, by the way, Yeah. 606 01:03:17,698.761 --> 01:03:28,538.761 I talk about that quote amongst, uh, if a man and woman are present, and they're married, there's, there's always a smile on the face of the woman and kind of a look of acknowledgement from the man. 607 01:03:29,28.761 --> 01:03:30,28.761 That's probably true. 608 01:03:30,458.761 --> 01:03:50,823.76 Uh, you know, I think, you know, You know, none other than Henry Stimson, who who's lately been of increased fame because of the popularity of the movie Oppenheimer and the credible book, um, that preceded it, the Pulitzer prize winning book American Prometheus, uh, you know, Stimson will advise. 609 01:03:51,598.76 --> 01:03:54,748.76 Truman on the selection of sites for the atomic bomb. 610 01:03:54,878.76 --> 01:03:59,758.76 I mean, he, he serves in multiple administrations from Theodore Roosevelt forward. 611 01:04:00,98.76 --> 01:04:05,678.759 So this is a person who's known for exquisite judgment and, and, um, incision. 612 01:04:06,658.76 --> 01:04:17,178.76 And says of Edith that whenever she was a part of the decision making, Theodore Roosevelt made better decisions. 613 01:04:18,873.76 --> 01:04:22,823.76 I, I put it this way when, Theodore Roosevelt. 614 01:04:24,13.76 --> 01:04:28,543.76 Was impulsive or didn't do something that Edith had recommended. 615 01:04:30,428.76 --> 01:04:34,558.76 And whenever he did follow her advice, he was generally successful. 616 01:04:34,968.76 --> 01:04:39,44.635 I mean, I think about, think about 1912, right? Oh, yes. 617 01:04:39,158.76 --> 01:04:43,498.76 only person who levels with him and says, put it out of your mind, Theodore. 618 01:04:43,558.759 --> 01:04:46,548.759 You will never be president of the United States again. 619 01:04:46,888.76 --> 01:04:47,784.635 That is not Yeah. 620 01:04:48,34.635 --> 01:04:48,554.635 Mm hmm. 621 01:04:49,48.76 --> 01:04:55,718.76 And she has a horse accident and basically suffers what is undoubtedly a concussion. 622 01:04:56,183.76 --> 01:05:00,13.76 Um, and it is during those moments that T. 623 01:05:00,13.76 --> 01:05:00,223.76 R. 624 01:05:00,233.76 --> 01:05:02,653.76 conspires with his younger sister, Connie. 625 01:05:03,224.635 --> 01:05:03,614.635 Yeah. 626 01:05:03,733.76 --> 01:05:08,963.76 the supportive governors and get, put his hat in the ring for 1912. 627 01:05:08,983.76 --> 01:05:23,543.76 Now, eventually she comes around and joins the excitement and hoopla of the campaign and begins to believe, but, but she saw the situation more pragmatically than he did, you know, that it's probably not going to work out. 628 01:05:23,553.76 --> 01:05:26,293.76 Doesn't mean it's not worth trying, but just politically. 629 01:05:26,753.76 --> 01:05:29,643.76 You're, you're, you're never going to be president of the United States again. 630 01:05:29,833.76 --> 01:05:37,464.635 Um, and, and, and date that back to the decision on election eve of 19, I mean, he, Yeah. 631 01:05:38,473.76 --> 01:05:40,883.76 political decision that Theodore Roosevelt ever made. 632 01:05:41,203.76 --> 01:05:54,973.76 declaring that he would not be a candidate for president again in 1908, uh, at the apotheosis of his greatest political achievement, winning elected office to the presidency in his own right. 633 01:05:55,163.76 --> 01:05:56,733.759 He made himself a lame duck. 634 01:05:57,3.759 --> 01:06:04,274.635 Uh, you know, Edith, there's debate about whether Edith was in the room or not to witness that, but undoubtedly she wasn't consulted No. 635 01:06:04,274.735 --> 01:06:06,984.535 Yeah. 636 01:06:07,463.76 --> 01:06:31,394.635 And indeed, probably the worst political decision in terms of practical politics that TR ever made, right? And the 1912 election, Edith made the comment to TR that nothing but regret would come of this. 637 01:06:32,414.635 --> 01:06:33,564.635 So she knew. 638 01:06:34,423.76 --> 01:06:37,723.76 nothing but regret will come of Yeah, indeed that's right. 639 01:06:37,723.76 --> 01:06:42,163.76 I mean, you know, the most successful independent candidacy in the history of the United States. 640 01:06:42,168.76 --> 01:06:46,213.76 He, he won the nomination, but it was denied him. 641 01:06:46,563.76 --> 01:06:49,593.76 You it's a quintessential rooseveltian battle. 642 01:06:49,893.76 --> 01:06:55,383.76 Does it matter if you won as long as you strove valiantly? And fought the good fight. 643 01:06:55,703.76 --> 01:06:59,593.76 Um, but nonetheless, that shows you she's pragmatic. 644 01:06:59,873.76 --> 01:07:02,963.76 She, she understands the political circumstances. 645 01:07:03,233.76 --> 01:07:09,513.76 He's more impulsive and those, that impulsivity is both his greatest strength and his, and his worst weakness. 646 01:07:10,519.635 --> 01:07:14,358.76 yeah, Exactly the same as was described. 647 01:07:14,388.76 --> 01:07:18,638.76 Many, you know, impulsive, a lively last with impulsivity. 648 01:07:18,918.76 --> 01:07:24,468.76 Uh, you know, says to feed, or, you know, it says to fee, you know, what my temperament is. 649 01:07:24,738.76 --> 01:07:26,769.635 I am impulsive, mm hmm. 650 01:07:27,378.76 --> 01:07:30,198.759 you just once you tie these pieces together. 651 01:07:30,498.76 --> 01:07:31,208.76 Who is T. 652 01:07:31,208.76 --> 01:07:31,638.76 R.? 653 01:07:31,708.76 --> 01:07:34,838.76 He is his father's son, but he is his mother's son. 654 01:07:35,158.76 --> 01:07:39,978.7595 It is the spitting image of his mother and that impulsivity that personality. 655 01:07:39,978.7595 --> 01:07:43,818.76 And, um, then you've got this pragmatic woman like Edith. 656 01:07:44,573.76 --> 01:07:51,33.76 is the opposite of Alice, you know, um, uh, trying to reign him in, uh, it, it, it's fascinating. 657 01:07:52,539.635 --> 01:08:17,119.535 well you provided in the book an excellent explanation of the family origin of Edith's middle name Kermit and the name of their second son now it might seem like a minor thing to some of our listeners but In the work Kurt and I have done with the public, and what you've done with the public, I'm sure, too, we get the question often, where does the name Kermit come from? Would you mind sharing your findings? Hmm. 658 01:08:17,213.76 --> 01:08:30,193.76 extraordinary? So I was out in Medora, North Dakota with um, a lovely woman, Priscilla Roosevelt, the wife of Kermit Roosevelt, and she tells me this story that is in the book. 659 01:08:30,193.76 --> 01:08:32,473.76 She said, well, you know the origin of the name Kermit. 660 01:08:32,513.86 --> 01:08:38,289.635 I mean, I, I think I know, I mean, Kermit and Corot and, Yeah. 661 01:08:38,289.735 --> 01:08:39,759.535 Heh heh heh heh. 662 01:08:39,813.76 --> 01:08:44,233.76 and she says, well, no, no, no, but I mean, she said, I swear that this is in a book somewhere. 663 01:08:44,233.76 --> 01:08:46,333.759 And I looked and I said, it's not in a book anywhere. 664 01:08:46,333.76 --> 01:08:47,863.759 I haven't heard this story before. 665 01:08:48,873.76 --> 01:08:56,793.76 the, so Edith's father, Charles Corot in business with Robert Kermit. 666 01:08:57,348.76 --> 01:09:03,169.535 And so they were business partners in Kermit and Corot, uh, the shipping company, hmm. 667 01:09:03,258.76 --> 01:09:13,538.76 parents, first child was a son whom they named Kermit because Robert Kermit had basically saved them from financial ruin. 668 01:09:14,88.76 --> 01:09:28,348.76 Robert Kermit had put them up in his home, had loaned them money, had really been there for Charles when he, uh, suffered the worst of his alcoholism and was beginning this decline in his life. 669 01:09:28,598.76 --> 01:09:32,478.76 And the Robert Kermit never had any children. 670 01:09:32,918.76 --> 01:09:46,998.759 And so when, uh, the family asked, what can we do to possibly repay you and honor you? He said, well, I have, I have no sons to carry my name forward, forth into the next generation. 671 01:09:47,443.76 --> 01:10:02,583.76 Would you consider naming your son for me? And indeed, they Charles and Gertrude had a son, uh, that son who would have been eat his older brother, uh, died in infancy before he was even 1 year old. 672 01:10:02,918.76 --> 01:10:20,238.76 Um, they had named him Kermit, so when Edith was born, they replicated the honor and named her Edith Kermit Corot, um, and that is the origin of the name Kermit, which of course then she named one of her sons Kermit, and the name carries down to this day. 673 01:10:21,449.635 --> 01:10:25,149.634 Well, before we go, we need to get over to a sister Corinne. 674 01:10:25,289.633 --> 01:10:51,813.033 Uh, Oh, so love I, Heh yeah, so could you talk a little bit about, um, Connie, as she was known to the family, Corinne Roosevelt Robinson's, uh, really unofficial and maybe sometimes unwelcome role as a TR press secretary I'll admit to you, Larry and Kurt, because I would presume the listeners of this fine podcast are what we affectionately call at the TR library are Ted Mm hmm. 675 01:10:51,813.033 --> 01:10:52,256.333 Kareen. 676 01:10:52,256.333 --> 01:10:54,29.533 Heh heh heh heh. 677 01:10:54,98.758 --> 01:10:55,758.758 you listen to the audio. 678 01:10:56,418.758 --> 01:11:01,738.658 pronunciation that the family had was Kareen, Kareen, Kareen. 679 01:11:01,818.758 --> 01:11:06,88.758 And I, I, I recorded the audio book of The Loves of Theodore Roosevelt. 680 01:11:06,98.758 --> 01:11:13,878.758 And I said, look, technically it would be Kareen, but absolutely no one will ever understand. 681 01:11:14,188.758 --> 01:11:17,468.758 why we are calling her Connie and then saying Corrine. 682 01:11:17,738.758 --> 01:11:23,788.758 Uh, so I will admit that if you get the audio book of The Loves of Theodore Roosevelt, I am copying to it. 683 01:11:23,958.757 --> 01:11:25,999.633 We called her Connie and, Yeah. 684 01:11:26,478.758 --> 01:11:29,968.757 that's, that's her name, uh, in the book and on the audio book. 685 01:11:30,338.757 --> 01:11:40,68.758 But I think Connie would be okay with it because she was, as I described in the book, TR's unofficial press secretary, the press secretary before the role existed. 686 01:11:40,708.758 --> 01:11:46,178.758 Um, you know, Eleanor Roosevelt would essentially say that if you wanted advice, you go to BAMI. 687 01:11:46,408.758 --> 01:11:48,498.758 If you want sympathy, you go to Connie. 688 01:11:48,619.633 --> 01:11:48,979.633 Mm hmm. 689 01:11:48,979.733 --> 01:11:50,499.533 Heh heh heh heh. 690 01:11:50,888.758 --> 01:11:53,518.758 She was more, um, she was poetic. 691 01:11:53,528.757 --> 01:11:54,868.757 She was indeed a poet. 692 01:11:55,28.758 --> 01:11:59,338.758 She wrote books of poetry, had a really fascinating and interesting life. 693 01:11:59,613.758 --> 01:12:02,203.758 On her own had not a great marriage. 694 01:12:02,233.758 --> 01:12:07,823.758 Um, and, and with that, not great marriage really funneled more of her energy into her brother. 695 01:12:08,143.758 --> 01:12:13,453.758 Um, but, you know, practically what Connie would do is I love this example. 696 01:12:13,703.757 --> 01:12:21,333.758 So, in, in when is governor Connie will come in from New Jersey and actually in Bambi's home. 697 01:12:21,758.758 --> 01:12:39,648.758 Uh, sit in on meetings that the, that the governor is having with Boss Platt and when eventually the breakfast is over, you know, Boss Platt will say, everybody clear out and the governor will say, well, surely my sister can say she's so interested in all that I do. 698 01:12:39,713.858 --> 01:12:43,833.758 And so Connie would stay and they'd take advantage of the sexism of the age. 699 01:12:43,873.758 --> 01:12:46,633.758 Connie would stay in the room, hear everything that happened. 700 01:12:46,923.758 --> 01:12:59,653.758 So much so that Theodore will say to Connie, Haven't we had fun being governor of New York? Uh, you know, that's, that's how much they were discussing and thinking through, um, the issues of the day when T. 701 01:12:59,653.758 --> 01:12:59,853.758 R. 702 01:12:59,853.758 --> 01:13:00,433.758 is governor. 703 01:13:00,693.758 --> 01:13:03,573.758 Fast forward, you know, Connie understands that T. 704 01:13:03,573.758 --> 01:13:03,953.758 R. 705 01:13:04,73.758 --> 01:13:07,203.758 's advantage is his reputation in the press. 706 01:13:07,203.758 --> 01:13:07,363.658 Fast forward. 707 01:13:07,843.758 --> 01:13:10,463.758 She will slip heroics of his time in Cuba. 708 01:13:10,463.758 --> 01:13:12,763.758 She'll slip heroics or she'll slip stories. 709 01:13:13,203.758 --> 01:13:16,683.758 Of the rambunctious home life, uh, to the press. 710 01:13:17,33.758 --> 01:13:19,383.758 She will do this over Edith's objection. 711 01:13:19,383.758 --> 01:13:27,223.758 You know, Edith wants to keep her family private and will reluctantly participate in some of the events of a public family. 712 01:13:27,503.757 --> 01:13:44,423.758 But Connie will repeatedly take details of the, the tales that they will have with the, the nephews and sons and make sure that the press falls in love with, uh, This incredible family, their pets and their crazy antics in the White House. 713 01:13:44,423.758 --> 01:13:49,979.633 And that's all Connie intuitively understanding that, that the TR had a power in the Yeah. 714 01:13:51,809.633 --> 01:13:59,399.6315 and continues that role even after his death, right? With the writing of, uh, it was my brother, Theodore Roosevelt, uh, kept that, that going. 715 01:14:00,188.7565 --> 01:14:01,619.6315 Now, I mean, that's it, Yeah. 716 01:14:01,848.7565 --> 01:14:13,658.7555 I mean, they will say, uh, one of, one of Connie's grandchildren will say, where's your platform, grandmother? Because they're so used to seeing her get on a platform and give a speech. 717 01:14:13,668.7555 --> 01:14:18,323.6565 She's the first woman to address a major party convention, the 1920 convention. 718 01:14:18,493.7565 --> 01:14:24,604.6315 The New York Times literally says the timber of her voice, the mannerisms hmm. 719 01:14:24,823.7565 --> 01:14:26,973.7565 speech are so evocative. 720 01:14:27,203.7565 --> 01:14:36,773.7565 Surely the convention goers must have thought of Theodore Roosevelt, who could have been the nominee, would have been the nominee at that 1920 Republican convention. 721 01:14:37,3.7565 --> 01:14:44,33.7565 Yet it's Connie who's carrying on the We'll work with BAMI to reestablish the boyhood home. 722 01:14:44,64.6315 --> 01:14:44,514.6315 Yes. 723 01:14:44,553.7565 --> 01:14:49,883.7555 work to establish the American Museum of Natural History as the New York State Memorial to TR. 724 01:14:50,3.7565 --> 01:14:52,283.7565 We'll write my brother Theodore Roosevelt. 725 01:14:52,313.7565 --> 01:14:56,13.7565 We'll give speeches across the nation in his name. 726 01:14:56,63.7565 --> 01:15:02,603.7565 Uh, you know, Connie, uh, understood that one of the most important parts of the presidency is the post presidency. 727 01:15:02,933.7565 --> 01:15:09,903.7565 Uh, to put it in the pantheon of great presidents, which at the time immediately following his presidency, was by no means a short thing. 728 01:15:10,104.6325 --> 01:15:10,404.6325 Yeah. 729 01:15:10,808.7575 --> 01:15:18,128.7575 she, she cemented his legacy, uh, right alongside Washington and Lincoln and eventually, uh, Jefferson. 730 01:15:18,128.7575 --> 01:15:25,788.7565 I mean, that's one of the reasons he's there on Mount Rushmore is the efforts of his sisters to ensure that, uh, Theodore Roosevelt was remembered. 731 01:15:25,923.8575 --> 01:15:34,839.6325 Oh, but he said, uh, was that history will be kind to me because I intend to write it. 732 01:15:37,253.7575 --> 01:15:38,203.7575 I like that one. 733 01:15:38,293.7575 --> 01:15:39,183.7575 I like that, Kurt. 734 01:15:39,203.7575 --> 01:15:40,543.7575 We're definitely going to use that. 735 01:15:41,164.6325 --> 01:15:46,714.6325 And I know when Corinne wrote my brother Theodore Roosevelt, Edith and Ted Jr. 736 01:15:47,494.6325 --> 01:15:53,474.6325 were livid and then eventually came around, but yeah, there was a bit of a family rift. 737 01:15:53,514.6325 --> 01:15:54,943.7575 I mean, Ted Jr. 738 01:15:54,963.7575 --> 01:16:05,833.7575 says, I think that she really believes that she is he now, referring to I mean, and what a, what a conflict, right? Yeah, Roosevelt Jr. 739 01:16:05,873.7575 --> 01:16:08,844.6315 You're the namesake of your famous yes. 740 01:16:09,733.757 --> 01:16:11,183.7575 to live up to that example. 741 01:16:11,183.7575 --> 01:16:17,313.7575 And then you've got, you know, your aunt basically supplanting you and she's got it. 742 01:16:17,414.6325 --> 01:16:17,764.6325 Yeah. 743 01:16:18,123.7565 --> 01:16:20,553.7565 charismatic and she's lively. 744 01:16:20,803.7565 --> 01:16:21,523.7565 Just a quick note. 745 01:16:21,863.7575 --> 01:16:37,563.7575 I know we're, I know we're coming toward the end, but I also want to note that You know, you have only one line of living examples from and Alice, right? You have Alice Roosevelt Longworth, and now her wonderful descendants. 746 01:16:38,273.7575 --> 01:16:42,213.7565 Alice Roosevelt Longworth is just an incredible character in history. 747 01:16:42,508.7575 --> 01:16:43,204.6325 And Yeah. 748 01:16:43,328.7575 --> 01:16:59,918.7575 how could you look at Alice and not think, have had an incredible, dynamic mother? I mean, because you have five examples from Theodore and Edith, and, you know, I would imagine that Ted Jr. 749 01:16:59,928.7565 --> 01:17:05,994.6325 had a hard time competing with Connie, because she was as lively and Yeah. 750 01:17:06,188.7575 --> 01:17:07,148.7575 as her brother. 751 01:17:07,568.7575 --> 01:17:10,378.6575 And that, that carried through in a way with Ted Jr. 752 01:17:10,778.7575 --> 01:17:19,63.7575 TR and Alice because Alice was a, uh, you know, a bit more outgoing and spontaneous and athletic and All these differences from, from Edith. 753 01:17:19,463.7575 --> 01:17:24,933.7575 So, you know, another fascinating way to look at the differences, uh, between the loves of Theodore Roosevelt. 754 01:17:25,74.6325 --> 01:17:25,414.6325 Yeah. 755 01:17:26,664.6325 --> 01:17:35,894.6325 Well, you mentioned that When Bammy was an adult, wrote that Theodore is the only person who had the power of making me almost worship him. 756 01:17:36,694.6325 --> 01:17:38,324.6325 From early in his life, T. 757 01:17:38,324.6325 --> 01:17:38,454.6325 R. 758 01:17:38,454.6325 --> 01:17:43,274.6325 seems to have been the main or central focus of the attention in the Roosevelt family. 759 01:17:43,904.6325 --> 01:18:08,733.7575 How unique is that in that time period for a man to have had such adoring support network? Well, you know, I, I think that it wasn't unique that women of that era had to find a a mechanism in which to channel the energy and the intelligence that they had that society. 760 01:18:09,808.7575 --> 01:18:21,824.6325 them, right? I mean, I, I think that, um, know, as we said, Alice will later, Alice, the daughter will say that had Bambi Bambi been a Mm hmm. 761 01:18:21,948.7575 --> 01:18:25,338.7575 not would have been president and Eleanor Roosevelt agreed. 762 01:18:25,758.7565 --> 01:18:29,48.7575 That doesn't mean that Bambi wanted to be president necessarily. 763 01:18:29,98.7575 --> 01:18:30,444.6325 Right? I mean, Yeah. 764 01:18:30,808.7575 --> 01:18:33,588.7575 now, but if you, if she lived 100 years later. 765 01:18:34,488.7575 --> 01:18:44,848.7565 could have been, and it would have been just as, just as, as expected, um, and not as unusual to say, well, she should be the, she's the older sister. 766 01:18:44,848.7575 --> 01:18:45,968.7565 She's charismatic. 767 01:18:46,278.7565 --> 01:18:46,728.7575 She's intelligent. 768 01:18:46,738.7575 --> 01:18:47,288.7575 She's brilliant. 769 01:18:47,298.7575 --> 01:18:48,438.7575 She should run for office. 770 01:18:49,458.7575 --> 01:18:52,18.7575 you know, it's, it's a lot of the expectations of the age. 771 01:18:52,28.7565 --> 01:18:52,864.6325 And I Mm hmm. 772 01:18:52,898.7575 --> 01:19:11,954.6325 certainly feel that with Alice Roosevelt Longworth, who You know, grows up in this crucible and is, you know, such the of public attention and is constrained in many ways by, um, the limitations of her gender in her Yeah. 773 01:19:11,968.7575 --> 01:19:13,798.7575 that's not to say that, you know, Susan B. 774 01:19:13,798.7575 --> 01:19:14,708.7565 Anthony and Ida B. 775 01:19:15,94.6325 --> 01:19:15,454.6325 Yeah. 776 01:19:15,498.7565 --> 01:19:21,238.7575 there are extraordinary examples of women, you know, Edith Wharton doing, uh, the work that she does. 777 01:19:21,268.7575 --> 01:19:26,68.7565 There's so many, there's many, many examples of women who break out of the constraints of their time. 778 01:19:26,68.7575 --> 01:19:26,928.7575 But I do think. 779 01:19:27,398.7575 --> 01:19:30,684.6325 That it was more usual than not, Mm hmm. 780 01:19:30,978.7575 --> 01:19:40,594.6315 women would have to find, uh, an outpost for their prodigious intelligence and energy and, uh, Theodore Roosevelt is, is pretty lucky Yeah. 781 01:19:40,888.7575 --> 01:19:48,814.6325 this cadre of women in his life, um, because I really don't think we would have had President Roosevelt, uh, Uh, Mm mm. 782 01:19:48,814.7325 --> 01:19:48,909.5325 Mm hmm. 783 01:19:48,983.7575 --> 01:19:53,879.6325 Mii and Bamy and Connie and Alice, uh, and Edith, Yeah. 784 01:19:53,993.7575 --> 01:19:55,348.7575 really, I don't think we would. 785 01:19:57,909.6315 --> 01:20:01,579.6315 Well, Edward, let me pose you a, a what if question here. 786 01:20:01,669.6325 --> 01:20:08,309.53 Uh, many historians will balk at the, uh, at the what if question. 787 01:20:08,359.53 --> 01:20:17,149.53 But, I, so as you know, Larry and I, do sometimes take on the character of Roosevelt, uh, in classrooms and various audiences. 788 01:20:17,289.53 --> 01:20:21,999.5295 I was recently in a 7th grade classroom here, locally in Colorado Springs, Mr. 789 01:20:21,999.5295 --> 01:20:40,249.3613333 Kasson's 7th grade class, and, uh, uh, he prepared his students well, and, I had the question posed to me, would, Have become president if Alice present? Woof. 790 01:20:40,335.3363333 --> 01:20:40,995.3363333 Mm hmm. 791 01:20:42,515.3363333 --> 01:21:04,299.4583333 Would it have? answer, like how does that alter TR's trajectory and I don't know I mean does that permanently alter his trajectory if Alice never died as a as a young mother? Well, will say this, you know, I admire the work of Edmund Morris. 792 01:21:04,389.4593333 --> 01:21:06,859.4593333 I think, you know, and God rest his soul. 793 01:21:06,889.4593333 --> 01:21:13,609.4593333 He did more for the Theodore Roosevelt canon, reviving his reputation and doing that amazing trilogy. 794 01:21:14,484.4593333 --> 01:21:27,245.3343333 I take issue and I do take issue in the loves of Theodore Roosevelt with his description of Alice and it kind of cruelly suggesting that the best service she ever provided him was, was passing away, Yeah. 795 01:21:27,364.4593333 --> 01:21:29,494.4593333 was, was leaving his life. 796 01:21:29,774.4583333 --> 01:21:33,274.4593333 I wholeheartedly and vehemently disagree. 797 01:21:33,554.4583333 --> 01:21:41,584.4593333 I think that Theodore Roosevelt in the six years he knew Alice, uh, began to formulate his progressive reform minded. 798 01:21:41,934.4593333 --> 01:21:42,954.4593333 Uh, philosophy. 799 01:21:42,994.4593333 --> 01:21:47,254.4593333 I think that he studied the law and then decided, wait a second. 800 01:21:47,334.4593333 --> 01:21:49,485.3343333 If you want to change the law, you have Mm hmm. 801 01:21:49,664.4588333 --> 01:21:50,44.4593333 for office. 802 01:21:50,424.4593333 --> 01:21:52,764.4593333 You don't study the law, you change the law. 803 01:21:52,965.3343333 --> 01:21:53,235.3343333 Yeah. 804 01:21:53,674.4593333 --> 01:22:00,444.4583333 you know, the only thing Theodore Roosevelt ever quit was the law because he found it ineffective compared to what he could do if he could make the laws. 805 01:22:00,564.4583333 --> 01:22:01,495.3343333 Um, Yeah. 806 01:22:01,944.4593333 --> 01:22:07,854.4583333 you know, that he, he did his first major book, the naval war of 1812 while he was married to Alice. 807 01:22:08,544.4593333 --> 01:22:18,775.3343333 In his own words, rose like a rocket and was elected three times to the New York State Assembly, still the youngest person ever elected to the New York State Assembly and nearly became speaker of Yeah. 808 01:22:19,544.4593333 --> 01:22:20,634.4583333 he was with Alice. 809 01:22:20,754.4593333 --> 01:22:25,54.4593333 Um, you know, I think his life obviously would have taken a different path. 810 01:22:25,54.4593333 --> 01:22:25,975.3343333 I mean, that, Mm hmm. 811 01:22:26,634.4593333 --> 01:22:30,34.4593333 The worst thing that ever, the worst thing that ever happened to you didn't happen. 812 01:22:30,84.4593333 --> 01:22:31,354.4593333 Your life takes a different path. 813 01:22:31,935.3343333 --> 01:22:32,405.3343333 Yeah. 814 01:22:32,454.4593333 --> 01:22:38,204.4593333 I, I think, you know, it's the hard things that happen to us in life that teach us the most. 815 01:22:38,264.4593333 --> 01:22:44,694.4593333 And by no means would ever anyone ever wish that terrible tragedy on someone. 816 01:22:44,714.4593333 --> 01:22:53,935.3333333 I mean, you know, if Theodore Roosevelt he would later say, if you take all the memories of my life away, say, but one, I want the memory of my time in the Badlands as a Yep. 817 01:22:54,34.4583333 --> 01:22:54,484.4583333 and a cowboy. 818 01:22:54,584.4583333 --> 01:22:55,194.4583333 Right. 819 01:22:56,144.4583333 --> 01:23:04,619.4583333 I, I think, you know, you could almost say, if he, He undoubtedly would have wanted his life to, his wife to live. 820 01:23:04,939.4583333 --> 01:23:11,539.4573333 He undoubtedly would have wanted to live, you know, would he have traded everything that came after it to have Alice in his life? Yes. 821 01:23:11,629.4573333 --> 01:23:13,529.4583333 I mean, I think he loved her. 822 01:23:13,979.4573333 --> 01:23:18,125.3333333 He says nothing, whatever else, but you, Yeah. 823 01:23:18,809.4573333 --> 01:23:27,289.4583333 he loves her so passionately, so deeply, and says, I talk over everything with Alice from politics to poetry. 824 01:23:27,379.4583333 --> 01:23:30,709.4583333 So do I think he, he would have followed a different trajectory. 825 01:23:31,34.4583333 --> 01:23:36,714.4583333 Would it have ended in the same place? I would argue probably yes. 826 01:23:36,784.4583333 --> 01:23:43,954.4583333 I mean, I think, you know, he was a man of destiny and he had the support system of these incredible people around him. 827 01:23:43,975.3323333 --> 01:23:44,305.3323333 Mm hmm. 828 01:23:44,404.4583333 --> 01:23:48,265.3323333 And they were determined to make his life, uh, Yeah. 829 01:23:48,505.3333333 --> 01:23:51,84.4583333 Mm theirs, and that wouldn't have changed. 830 01:23:51,224.4583333 --> 01:23:57,865.3333333 Um, now, you know, Edith would not have entered the picture in the way that she did, and that undoubtedly would have changed things too, but, hmm. 831 01:23:58,24.4573333 --> 01:24:20,349.4583333 but, um, you know, I, I think I'll, I'll end where I began, which is, you know, my vision of Theodore Roosevelt as a child was, The autochthonous will, this, um, sui generis and, and, and just almost, um, supernatural ability to find your way through any, uh, crisis. 832 01:24:20,529.4583333 --> 01:24:21,265.3323333 And, Yeah. 833 01:24:21,479.5573333 --> 01:24:28,399.4583333 to do that as a self made man, right? That's not necessarily true. 834 01:24:29,519.4583333 --> 01:24:30,499.4583333 It's a great story. 835 01:24:30,759.4583333 --> 01:24:31,999.4583333 And I love a great story. 836 01:24:33,239.4583333 --> 01:24:34,779.4583333 It's a better story. 837 01:24:35,179.4573333 --> 01:24:37,249.4583333 If you say that Theodore Roosevelt. 838 01:24:37,689.4583333 --> 01:24:39,979.4583333 Like all of us, needed help. 839 01:24:40,149.4583333 --> 01:24:41,379.4583333 He needed his mother. 840 01:24:41,389.4583333 --> 01:24:43,609.4583333 He needed his sisters. 841 01:24:43,779.4583333 --> 01:24:47,75.3323333 He needed both Alice and Edith Yes. 842 01:24:47,249.4583333 --> 01:24:49,629.4583333 they came into his life at the time they did. 843 01:24:49,934.4583333 --> 01:25:02,474.4583333 Um, and thank God they did because it made our country a better place and it made an example of a person that we can continue to look to today to inspire generations tomorrow. 844 01:25:02,504.4583333 --> 01:25:06,754.4573333 And so that's, that's what I love about the loves of Theodore Roosevelt. 845 01:25:07,274.4573333 --> 01:25:07,544.4573333 Yeah. 846 01:25:07,544.4573333 --> 01:25:08,124.4563333 Thank you. 847 01:25:08,124.4573333 --> 01:25:09,754.4563333 This has been wonderful. 848 01:25:09,763.5823333 --> 01:25:10,363.5823333 Wonderful. 849 01:25:10,544.4573333 --> 01:25:12,404.4573333 enjoyed having this discussion with you about your book. 850 01:25:13,773.5823333 --> 01:25:18,513.5823333 Well, Larry, Kurt, I, I, I love seeing you out in Medora in the Badlands. 851 01:25:18,663.5823333 --> 01:25:20,553.5823333 I hope we get to do that again this summer. 852 01:25:20,553.5823333 --> 01:25:27,143.5823333 And, you know, uh, I'll watch in the performance if there's a little bit of the loves of tr coming through from here on out. 853 01:25:27,724.4573333 --> 01:25:33,54.4573333 Well Edward O'Keefe, the loves of Theodore Roosevelt, the women who created a president. 854 01:25:33,264.4573333 --> 01:25:46,135.4323333 Uh, terrific new take on Roosevelt as the center of of Amazing support network of women who created this man. 855 01:25:46,565.4323333 --> 01:25:49,235.4323333 Don't just take Larry and I's word for it. 856 01:25:50,465.4313333 --> 01:25:54,465.4323333 Again, Kathleen Dalton was a significant contributor to this book. 857 01:25:54,785.4323333 --> 01:26:02,305.4323333 You have on the back page here praise from historians like John Meacham, Candace Millard, Douglas Brinkley. 858 01:26:02,845.4323333 --> 01:26:04,735.4323333 Wonderful new book released. 859 01:26:05,95.4323333 --> 01:26:12,129.5573333 When is this released again, Edward? May 7th, wherever books are sold, the audio book on the same date. 860 01:26:12,129.5573333 --> 01:26:17,605.4323333 And if you'd like to know more about where I'm gonna be appearing and all the book signings and events, Good. 861 01:26:17,924.5573333 --> 01:26:20,49.5573333 O'Keefe dot com, uh, please. 862 01:26:20,904.5573333 --> 01:26:27,414.5573333 Or to the loves of Theodore Roosevelt, wherever you like to buy books, and I'd love to see you out there on the road. 863 01:26:27,464.5573333 --> 01:26:27,934.5573333 Edward F. 864 01:26:27,934.5573333 --> 01:26:28,894.5573333 O'Keefe dot com. 865 01:26:28,944.5573333 --> 01:26:30,884.5563333 Come, come see me and I'd love to say hello. 866 01:26:30,935.4323333 --> 01:26:36,294.5573333 Well, thank you for what you do, and yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing you this summer I'm happy. 867 01:26:36,294.5573333 --> 01:26:38,174.5573333 We're able to have this conversation today. 868 01:26:38,174.5573333 --> 01:26:39,34.5568333 I'm Larry Kurt. 869 01:26:39,34.5568333 --> 01:26:40,924.5573333 It's really it's truly been a pleasure. 870 01:26:40,924.5573333 --> 01:26:42,314.5573333 I love talking with folks who. 871 01:26:42,664.5573333 --> 01:26:46,124.5573333 Love TR as much as me and I really appreciate all you do.