July 19, 2024 • 46 secs
In this week’s episode, Imogen DeVille, Senior Hiring Manager, discusses the challenges faced by end users before, during, and after implementation. She emphasises the importance of user training, prioritising soft skills over technical expertise, and recommends specific technologies for end users to attract top talent.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:07):
Welcome to The 365 Pod, a technology podcast
which supports companies to successfully use and leverage
their Microsoft product stack.
We do this through news, insights, tips and
more.
I'm Sondra Koutsenko.
I'm the Director of Training Services for 365
(00:28):
Talent Portal, which is the company who is
sponsoring this lovely podcast.
And I am your host for today.
In our previous episode, we did a little
bit of an interview your boss thing, where
I invited our CEO, Elena, who's also the
first person ever to join our company because
she created it.
(00:50):
So for today, we thought we'd do a
little bit of symmetry and invite our newest
team member, Imogen, who joined us earlier this
year.
Imogen is with us as a Senior Hiring
Manager, which means she is in charge of
our hiring services, and she is also in
charge of our business development across all services.
(01:13):
I was really glad when Imogen joined because
she's got a really impressive profile.
Imogen is quite young still, and yet she
already has 10 years of overall professional experience.
And she reached leadership roles very early in
her career.
Notably, she's been working in Microsoft Tech recruitment
(01:33):
for over six years, and she cares a
lot about community and engagement.
She is a part, for example, of Women
in Dynamics.
So that's quite a lot for someone so
young.
I'm really grateful, Imogen, that you joined me
today.
How are you doing?
(01:55):
Yeah, I'm good, thank you.
What a lovely introduction.
I appreciate it.
I'm good, thank you.
Yeah, excited to get into a conversation with
you and just delve into some interesting topics.
Awesome.
Well, let's get straight to it.
First of all, I'd really like to talk
a little more about your background because it
is a little bit unusual.
(02:17):
And notably, the fact that you got into
a position of leading Microsoft Tech recruitment teams
in quite a large company at a very
young age.
So I'd really like to know more about
that.
First of all, how did you achieve this?
What do you think were the factors that
got you to that position in the way
that you did?
And how was that experience for you?
(02:40):
Yeah, so in the sense of how I
worked my way up the channel to get
in a more management role.
I feel like I've got to go a
little bit further back because from my own
personal experience, even in school and then going
through to my university jobs, I was always
that person who kind of took on the
(03:01):
lead role when I was given the opportunity.
I think, you know, you get people that
are naturally extroverts, naturally have to take control.
Maybe it's because I love to be in
charge.
But I would definitely say being in a
large organisation at the start of your career
really does support you to learn from so
many different aspects.
(03:22):
There's so many different varieties of characters.
It was a huge open plan office.
I could absorb what not to do from
service managers, what to do from specific managers.
And I do think the people above me
really, those who, you know, believed in me
did really support me.
And we had a big push.
I was at one point one of the
only female managers, I think, in my division
(03:44):
of the business, which is quite funny when
I would go into the calls in the
morning and they're all a bunch of Essex,
London blokes all chatting about football.
And I just honestly have not the foggiest.
So I used to do research and just
pretend I was a football fan for some
time just to get involved in a bit
of the rapport.
But I mean, I do think it's a
(04:06):
lot of luck and also hard work and
determination.
And I really did take pride in wanting
to support the team around me and helping
people.
And after the pandemic, we came back and
nobody was in the office and there were
new trainees.
And I just kind of took them under
my wing and was like, well, this is
what you do, this is what you do.
And I've always enjoyed helping people and supporting
(04:26):
people.
And when you see them do incredibly well,
it's just lovely, isn't it really?
So a bit of luck, hard work and
determination.
I did, I did graft pretty a lot,
to be honest with you.
Yeah, that's quite interesting because there's often in
success a combination of nature versus choices.
Right.
(04:46):
So you're going to have a certain level
of natural inclination that's going to make you
successful at certain things.
And then you're going to make some choices
that will also push you.
So with you, it sounds like a lot
of it was about your natural skills and
natural predisposition.
Is that is that an accurate statement?
Yeah, I would say so, especially especially towards
(05:08):
the end of my career at that organisation.
At the beginning, I think I was quite
honest because when I was on recruitment, I
didn't even know what it was.
I just wanted a job so I could
stay at a university.
And then I after two to three years
that I gained confidence in my capabilities and
then I knew the market like the back
of my hand.
And I was focused within Dynamics Business Central.
(05:29):
I knew absolutely everything about the technology.
I knew I could walk into a kitchen
in somebody's house and tell them the ERP
system of what the toaster, the manufacturer of
the toast used, or who the fridge manufacturer
was, or the fact that this company or
the towels, I knew that the manufacturer of
their towels and the distributor, I knew the
(05:49):
ERP system of that.
So I really did take pride in understanding
the market.
And I think with that came more confidence.
Because when people ask me questions, I was
able to answer that with full conviction and
just actually know what I'm talking about.
And I think that naturally, well, I know
that naturally leads into more leadership positions because
people have more trust in you.
(06:10):
And, you know, they want you to succeed
because you are the expert in that field.
Yeah, that answers your question.
I'd like to take you back to something
you mentioned, which is that at one point
you were the only female leader, team leader
in the organisation where you were working.
So have you observed the Microsoft tech space
(06:33):
in the recruitment area specifically to be still
very masculine overall?
And like, how was it for you as
a woman?
And what did you think it brought you
to be a woman in that particular space?
Yeah, I think in my area of the
business, which was focused within the United Kingdom,
(06:53):
and then it was just more Microsoft focus.
I was the only female manager at various
points.
So sometimes people would come, they would go,
they would get promoted, but then they would
move into a more of an account manager
position or more just pure business development.
And we were fortunate enough that we had
a very, you know, admirable CEO who was
a female.
She was big on pushing female talent.
(07:15):
And then we had various mentor programmes within
the organisation where if they saw that there
was somebody who would be a possible leader,
they would actually get mentored regardless of somebody,
somebody's gender, somebody more higher up in the
company.
I would say in terms of the wider
tech space and recruitment as well, both of
those are more male dominated industries.
(07:38):
At one point when I was more of
a senior consultant, I think it was the
only female on the team.
I think there was like 13 lads and
there was only me.
And you definitely do have to have the
capacity to have lad banter, I would say,
which isn't always the best.
But I do think as things have evolved
over the past six years, that mentality and
that sales look culture, I guess you could
(07:59):
argue, has really diminished over time.
Well, especially in, you know, my previous employers
and when I speak to other organisations.
But I can't say that as a sweeping
statement for the whole of the industry, because
I imagine certain recruitment firms are a very
laddish culture.
It is unfortunately one of those things at
the moment.
(08:20):
But you do have to have a bit
of a thick skin.
But I think in any sales, well, I
know in any sales position, that's just the
nature of the beast.
Because it is, I do say recruitment is
the hardest form of sales because you're not
selling a product that you can control.
You're selling, it sounds awful to put it
in this way, but you are selling a
skill set and a person and a personality.
(08:42):
And I could tell you some horrendous horror
stories where people have gone to interviews and
you've spent hours with them on the phone
with teams talking to them.
This is an amazing opportunity.
The offer's coming.
Then they rock up to an interview in,
you know, joggers and a hoodie and pre
-pandemic that was not allowed.
You know, they were going into Canary Wharf
and yeah, it's just horrendous stories like that.
(09:05):
Or people were hired and then they found
out that they were criminals and all these
things because they'd lied to you.
Yeah, there's genuinely a lot of horror stories.
I don't think I could even go into
detail around them.
Some of them are horrific, but it is
difficult because, as I said, you're not just
selling telephone.
You're not selling a solution.
You're selling a person, like in their character,
(09:26):
which is, again, awful to put it.
But it is, in my opinion, one of
the most difficult forms of sales.
Definitely, it is a very challenging area, especially
in tech.
Yes, so competitive.
It's interesting because I didn't actually realise that
the recruiters in our space were majorly male.
(09:46):
And we do have still a challenge of
diversity in the Microsoft tech space.
And I think that it's interesting to think
about this, that the lack of diversity in
the recruiters might actually have an effect in
the lack of diversity in our space as
a whole.
Because it is important to be thinking about
who's the person who's helping you find your
talent and how their personal life experience might
(10:08):
affect the choices they make.
What candidates they're going to put forward, what
candidates they're going to support, how they're going
to guide the candidates, how they're going to
advise you.
There's actually a lot of impact on.
And I think as well, just to point
out, in terms of understanding the requirements of
(10:29):
specific candidates and being empathetic.
If you have a bunch of 22-year
-old lads who are on your hiring team,
again, there's nothing wrong with that.
But obviously, they're going to attract a specific
type of candidate.
They won't necessarily attract a working mother who
needs part time.
And would they understand that a working mother
needs part time and that they need more
flexibility because they haven't been in that position
(10:51):
yet in their lives or if they will
be.
So it's that character as well, I guess.
That's a really interesting point.
I've never even considered that.
That's why I think recruitment strategies are a
constant review of who you have on your
team, what sort of calibre you're attracting and
what strategies you have in place to attract
and retain talent is key, especially at the
(11:11):
start of a company.
You have these huge, huge organisations who have
been in the tech space for years, who
have really established recruitment teams.
But if they're always the same team and
they don't rely on external resources, then surely
they're always going to be resourcing from the
same pool.
And that quantity of candidates will often always
be the same.
As much as we like to pretend there's
(11:33):
new people coming into the market and into
the ecosystem, there definitely isn't the same.
And obviously, that's something I've discussed quite a
lot at several conferences recently, where we don't
have that skills.
I can't think of the word.
Skill influx, right?
Influx, there we are.
(11:53):
We don't have that influx of new tech
talent coming from younger generations.
All the partners have the same conversation with
the recruiters.
We need somebody with five to seven years
experience.
We need a senior consultant.
We need them on site four days a
week.
That's just not going to fly anymore.
If you want those people, you're going to
have to take from your possible partners, especially
(12:16):
in the BC space.
Most people actually work together, rely on each
other, especially within the ISVs.
So what does that do?
It creates a negative atmosphere and not that
community sense that Microsoft want.
So people really need to invest in new
talent and find potential.
And also the cross-training element is something
I know is being discussed quite significantly.
And I personally have placed a lot of
(12:39):
cross-trainers from other ERP systems or other
industries and those candidates because of their onboarding.
And they tend to be more invested into
the process rather than just chasing the high
salaries, which often you can find, especially post
-pandemic with the salary and inflation within the
space, because that was mad at some point.
(13:01):
So I had developers requesting £75,000 and
they only had five years experience.
It got really crazy with the salaries.
Yeah, that's true.
And some of the bigger partners obviously can
pay that because they've got the budgets, they've
got those projects in place.
But what does that do to the small
partners?
It's not fair for them.
So that's another issue in itself.
(13:23):
We can probably talk about that for 45
minutes.
Well, let's stay a little bit in talent
strategies because we do want to leverage what
you know about this.
And as you know, this podcast is mostly
for Microsoft end users.
And we talked a little bit about the
challenges within the Microsoft tech recruitment industry as
(13:43):
a whole.
Now, when you're coming into this as an
end user company, you're not specialising in tech
recruitment.
It's not your area of expertise because you're
recruiting across the board and your tech hiring
is just a tiny part of your overall
hiring strategy.
So what are some of the top tips
(14:04):
you could share with end users, people who
don't know that much about tech recruitment, but
they will need more and more tech skills
now.
And it's really important to have the right
tech people in place internally.
So if I'm an end user company and
I'm wanting to hire Microsoft talent and I'm
not used to it and I don't really
know where to start, what are some things
(14:25):
I can do to find the right talent?
What are the top tips for things I
would need to keep in mind when I'm
conducting my tech hiring strategies?
Yeah, definitely.
I always find that end users are often
the best customers to work with, majority of
the time, because you know that that person
that you place at that company is going
(14:46):
to be life changing for the organisation in
terms of their processes, their business systems, whether
it's a business systems analyst.
I've done quite a few of them.
We're skilled within Power Platform, you know, or
you've done your senior at CTOs and everything
like that.
I find end users, you know, and they
also are in a position where they want
to learn because, as you said, it is
(15:08):
very difficult.
Several of them have come into the industry
relatively naive in a way.
You don't necessarily know what to do, what
to expect, how competitive it is.
It's not like just hiring for your standard
IT support person.
If you want a higher, more senior professional
or somebody who has solo focused skills within
Microsoft technologies, you know, the majority of the
(15:31):
time there's seven or eight other organisations who
are trying to fight for this person as
well.
So there are two things I would always
say to every end user.
Well, probably three, actually.
One of them is ensure that you have
attractive technologies.
OK, you want to be competitive.
Most people want to work for a partner
because like, well, I'll be working with the
latest technologies, I'll be working on really interesting
(15:51):
projects.
But if you offer them the same opportunity
within an end user space that tends to
be often more stable jobs or more of
a job for life, that often is a
character within the end user space.
If you're working with AI or you have
a really outdated system, but you've got a
(16:12):
budget allocated and they can come in and
take full ownership of that, that is so
attractive to so many candidates out there.
The way that I would divide candidates, especially
pre-pandemic, was people who wanted to work
for partners and people who wanted to work
for end users.
And you would have a conversation with them.
Would you prefer end user or partner?
And they would say one or the other.
(16:32):
There were a couple of people that would
say, oh, I'm not really bothered.
But the reason is because partners used to
be on the road four or five days
a week.
You know, you'd be on an F&O
project, you'd be gallivanting around the world.
And it's not as glamorous as it seems.
You tend to spend most of your life
in airports or in the office of a
random place in a city somewhere.
And then you've got the end users who
(16:54):
will, you know, want something that's relatively local.
I just want a more relaxed life and
I want to be able to make a
difference.
And see, the quote that pretty much everybody
would say, was see the difference I make
as a person and see all my hard
work and what that has on the company.
That's what a lot of the end user
candidates.
But since cloud, teams, the pandemic, obviously those
(17:18):
two lines have come a lot more blurred
and more merged.
So it's really about finding what that candidate
wants and how you as an organisation suit
it and what's appealing.
So attractive technology, modern technology or a budget
and a strategy in place to ensure that
you attract these talents.
Just be honest with the candidates.
(17:38):
If you have a horrendous NAV2009 system that's
so massively like customised, it's not even recognisable
from NAV, then that's fine.
But tell the candidate, they're not going to
be frustrated with you as long as they
know.
So being honest, another avenue I would say
(17:58):
is, obviously I am biassed, but use a
recruiter, use a consultant, use somebody who has
an external expertise.
Because if you're coming into this industry relatively
blind, you've not actually hired for this position
for the last 15 years because the person
is retiring or they've moved to another company
or, you know, they just have gone part
time.
(18:18):
The space has changed so much in the
past three years that you actually are coming
in with blinders on because you genuinely have
no idea what's happening.
So if you even have a conversation with
a recruiter, get their expertise, have a consultant
come in.
The reason the recruitment industry is an industry
separate now to HR is because it has
become so competitive.
It is so intense.
(18:40):
People are fighting for several positions, especially the
senior talent in the market.
They've got four or five offers coming into
the table.
It's honestly, it's a bit of a minefield
out there.
So you really want to have the support
and the expertise of a consultant who's relatively
senior in their industry so that you can
(19:00):
rely upon them.
And then a lot of, in my opinion,
all the recruiters I've ever worked with don't
want to provide you with a candidate that
will leave in six months time because it's
not good for us.
We don't want to provide you with a
product that you don't like at the end
of the day.
So we've got a vested interest, especially the
more seniors within the industry, retaining that relationship
(19:22):
with you guys, making sure that you find
the best candidate that's going to make the
most difference.
So rely upon those experts.
We do it 60, 70 hours a week
sometimes.
And we're the ones who are on the
front lines dealing with all these issues that
happens.
And counter offers is something everyone's dealing with
at the moment.
And the recruitment consultants have strategies in place
(19:44):
in their own personal process to alleviate that
issue.
And we will be very transparent if especially
the way that we work as an organisation
is we have these processes in place.
If I think a candidate's money motivated, I'm
not going to waste your time and put
that profile in front of you.
Why would I do that?
So a lot of end users don't even
have time or the expertise to get somebody
(20:04):
on their team.
Why not use somebody?
Outsource the responsibilities.
It saves you so much time and effort.
And at the end of the day, you
should be provided with a premium product.
It sounds awful to say it in these
words.
I do feel guilty by using this terminology,
but that's how you simplify it.
(20:25):
To finding the best tech talent is if
you don't have that person in your team
internally to find somebody, rely on somebody externally.
So if you can, do use a recruiter
or just get their opinion.
There's a lot of recruits out there.
You might know somebody who knows somebody who
can give you a bit of advice.
Obviously, just reach out to them, have a
conversation, ensure that you've got attractive technology.
(20:49):
And the final point I would say is
the recruitment process in itself is very important.
Years ago, I would always recommend, you know,
the shortest process as possible.
You know, one stage, get them in the
door.
I would never recommend that these days.
I would always try and advise at least
(21:10):
for a face-to-face meeting if it's
going to be one stage.
And I kind of shoot myself in the
foot this and a lot of recruiters will
be listening to this going, why are you
saying that?
But it used to be the candidate had
to impress the hiring manager.
Nowadays, as a customer, because it is candidate
shop market, you're the ones who actually need
(21:31):
to impress the candidate because of how many
people they will be speaking to.
So if you've got a process where you
meet them face to face, show your personality,
show the company character, have those values and
represent that you're a modern, progressive company, probably
flexible working.
If that's not a possibility, again, be honest
with the candidates, but they want to feel
as though that they are valued as a
(21:53):
person that you're investing time in this process.
Which again is why you should always give
candidates feedback.
If it's a yes, no, three bags full,
they don't care.
Give them feedback.
The industry is very small.
That really matters.
So, yeah, investing time in them.
I have had candidates before who have actually
taken offers £10,000 less than another offer
(22:13):
because they genuinely felt that that company cared
more about them.
And they because of the recruitment process, it
was two stages in person.
And if that's not a possibility, that's OK.
Obviously, we're remote organisations, but have that rapport
with the candidates.
And if the candidate at the end of
the day, if you're interviewing them and you
think they're not the personality I want, that's
(22:34):
fine.
But you also need to know this before
you go and hire someone and then you
realise they're not the team culture.
Obviously, that's also key, making sure that the
person fits.
Yeah, so there are three points that I
could go into a lot of detail surrounding
those topics.
And I do believe it is on a
case by case basis, but a generalised question
for the end users.
(22:54):
Good strategy.
If you know if you need assistance on
that, use a recruiter and have attractive talent
or at least a budget to move that
forward.
Yeah, and that makes a lot of sense
because if you think about it, it's it's
quite a complex area.
Right.
Like even just how do you build your
job adverts when you're not really clear about
(23:15):
what are the latest tech skills that you
might need based on the technology that you've
got in your in your organisation?
That's the first hurdle.
Then how do you actually know who's a
good candidate versus who's not if you don't
have the technical know-how to screen for
that?
And then there's another part that I'd like
to get your thoughts about as well, because
when you're a consultant and you're joining a
(23:37):
Microsoft partner, which is where a large proportion
of consultants go, usually you're going to have
a career track, you're going to have a
lot of support with training, where it's like
adapted to your specific role.
When you're an end user, you might not
have those things in place.
How do you actually nurture tech talent?
So do you have some tips you can
(23:58):
share with end users for how they can
retain tech talent if they don't have that
whole infrastructure already in place?
Definitely.
I would say if you can do, try
and get the infrastructure in place in terms
of the onboarding process.
That, again, is so key.
I've spoken to a lot of candidates who
(24:18):
have placed end users over the years.
And this is, again, from IT service line
support through to CTO.
You know, they've joined the company.
There's no documentation.
They have no idea what to do.
They don't know what the issue is.
So first, if there's a possibility and you've
got time there, get your documentation up to
scratch.
So they actually know what they're joining or
(24:39):
what they're coming in for.
And the onboarding process is key because that's
when the first six to eight weeks, 12
weeks, six months, depending on your, is handholding,
making sure that you do weekly check-ins
with the candidates, especially if they're working from
home.
They don't want to be sat there in
a room, not feeling as if they're part
of an organisation.
Some people like that, but majority of the
(25:02):
time they want to feel like they're valued
and they've got purpose within the organisation.
So refine that.
There are specific organisations who have mentoring programmes.
I know that that's something yourself, Sandra, have
looked quite a lot into and you've designed
a mentoring programme.
So there are resources out there which end
users can reach out to and rely upon
to teach internal staff how to correctly onboard
(25:24):
people and how to ensure that they're invested
in the organisation.
Another point I would say is ask them
what they want.
You know, it's sounds a bit obvious, but
if you've got somebody who wants to be
the IT operations manager in the future, then
(25:45):
ask them, OK, well, that's the job I
want.
Eventually I want to retire in the next
10 years.
So let's put you on a pathway there.
How did I make it there?
All right.
And get that constant feedback from the candidate.
And we've been in a position where I've
spoken to end users about actually altering job
titles and developing positions.
But to retain a strong candidate is to
(26:06):
ensure that they think that they're valued and
cared about.
You've got that progression for them.
No glass ceiling.
That's the most frustrating thing for any candidate.
Well, it's the next step for me.
If he's not going to retire or she's
not going to retire in the next five
years, then where am I going to go?
Well, OK.
Have these conversations with them to ensure that
they know that you're where your heads are
(26:27):
and that you're on their side and that
it's not them fighting against you to get
that promotion or anything along those lines.
But yeah, really just ask the candidates what
they want and see what you can do.
Investing in them in terms of certifications.
A lot of candidates we work with, you
know, they want to be working with the
Power Platform.
They want to be building apps.
They want to be doing that.
And all of that is in their full
(26:47):
responsibilities.
If that's something that they're passionate about, why
not fund that?
And then they could be so heavily involved
in different building, different processes.
So bottom your finance team, you know, creating
a Power BI dashboard that could save your
finance department three days a week.
That will help everybody.
(27:08):
So if they've got this talent, really foster
that and invest time in it because they
will value that as a person.
Because again, it gives them purpose.
You're respecting what they want, their boundaries.
And it is, unfortunately to a lot of
people out there, the customers out there, it
is the candidates who are in charge these
days.
So that's really what you want to do.
Also, they'll be happier and bring a lot
(27:28):
more better atmosphere to the organisation.
If they feel like you've got the back,
they're just going to be better employed to
work with.
So that would be my two cents on
that one.
That makes a lot of sense because when
you think about it, if you upskill your
tech talent properly, everyone wins, right?
There's always new things happening in technology.
There's always new things for someone to learn.
(27:50):
And if you're, especially if you're an end
user and you have a small IT team
with just a few people, the more they
know, the more they can actually support you
to roll out your internal technology.
So it's definitely a win, win, win, win,
win, win to do this.
100% because if you invest a little
bit of money in them, then in the
(28:10):
long run, it'll save you so much time,
efficiency.
So although it's an initial investment, it will
save you time and money down the line.
Absolutely.
Which is what everybody wants these days, you
know, loves a bit of automation, don't we,
in the market.
So let's talk a bit more about skills,
because right now we've got two really big
things happening in our space, Microsoft technology.
(28:32):
So if you're a Microsoft technology end user,
you've probably heard a great deal about Copilot
recently.
And there's also Power Platform, which is a
big thing.
It's a little, well, it started a few
years ago, but it's getting bigger and bigger.
And it's definitely a technology that's extremely successful.
And there's a number of companies that haven't
yet gotten into those technologies.
(28:54):
So what would be, from your point of
view, the skills that are going to be
important as an end user to target thinking
about future proofing your company?
Because eventually most companies who want to be
successful, they're going to have to move to
Power Platform.
They're going to have to move to Copilot
or equivalent solutions.
So what are the skills, the tech skills
(29:16):
that are going to be most important in
the next few years when you look at
what's happening in our space right now?
So in terms of when you're hiring for
people who have the potential to develop these
skills, I would always, is that the way
you.
That's the way I would look at this
(29:36):
question.
So what the way I would approach it
is I always find that candidates who have
that attention to detail and everybody says this.
Especially if you speak to a lot of
the finance professionals who are transitioning into this
or they've done the AATs or yeah, AATs
have started their CCAs.
And they're like, oh, I don't know if
(29:57):
I want this.
You do a lot.
Welcome to The 365 Pod, a technology podcast
which supports companies to successfully use and leverage
their Microsoft product stack.
We do this through news, insights, tips and
more.
I'm Sondra Koutsenko.
I'm the Director of Training Services for 365
(00:28):
Talent Portal, which is the company who is
sponsoring this lovely podcast.
And I am your host for today.
In our previous episode, we did a little
bit of an interview your boss thing, where
I invited our CEO, Elena, who's also the
first person ever to join our company because
she created it.
(00:50):
So for today, we thought we'd do a
little bit of symmetry and invite our newest
team member, Imogen, who joined us earlier this
year.
Imogen is with us as a Senior Hiring
Manager, which means she is in charge of
our hiring services, and she is also in
charge of our business development across all services.
(01:13):
I was really glad when Imogen joined because
she's got a really impressive profile.
Imogen is quite young still, and yet she
already has 10 years of overall professional experience.
And she reached leadership roles very early in
her career.
Notably, she's been working in Microsoft Tech recruitment
(01:33):
for over six years, and she cares a
lot about community and engagement.
She is a part, for example, of Women
in Dynamics.
So that's quite a lot for someone so
young.
I'm really grateful, Imogen, that you joined me
today.
How are you doing?
(01:55):
Yeah, I'm good, thank you.
What a lovely introduction.
I appreciate it.
I'm good, thank you.
Yeah, excited to get into a conversation with
you and just delve into some interesting topics.
Awesome.
Well, let's get straight to it.
First of all, I'd really like to talk
a little more about your background because it
is a little bit unusual.
(02:17):
And notably, the fact that you got into
a position of leading Microsoft Tech recruitment teams
in quite a large company at a very
young age.
So I'd really like to know more about
that.
First of all, how did you achieve this?
What do you think were the factors that
got you to that position in the way
that you did?
And how was that experience for you?
(02:40):
Yeah, so in the sense of how I
worked my way up the channel to get
in a more management role.
I feel like I've got to go a
little bit further back because from my own
personal experience, even in school and then going
through to my university jobs, I was always
that person who kind of took on the
(03:01):
lead role when I was given the opportunity.
I think, you know, you get people that
are naturally extroverts, naturally have to take control.
Maybe it's because I love to be in
charge.
But I would definitely say being in a
large organisation at the start of your career
really does support you to learn from so
many different aspects.
(03:22):
There's so many different varieties of characters.
It was a huge open plan office.
I could absorb what not to do from
service managers, what to do from specific managers.
And I do think the people above me
really, those who, you know, believed in me
did really support me.
And we had a big push.
I was at one point one of the
only female managers, I think, in my division
(03:44):
of the business, which is quite funny when
I would go into the calls in the
morning and they're all a bunch of Essex,
London blokes all chatting about football.
And I just honestly have not the foggiest.
So I used to do research and just
pretend I was a football fan for some
time just to get involved in a bit
of the rapport.
But I mean, I do think it's a
(04:06):
lot of luck and also hard work and
determination.
And I really did take pride in wanting
to support the team around me and helping
people.
And after the pandemic, we came back and
nobody was in the office and there were
new trainees.
And I just kind of took them under
my wing and was like, well, this is
what you do, this is what you do.
And I've always enjoyed helping people and supporting
(04:26):
people.
And when you see them do incredibly well,
it's just lovely, isn't it really?
So a bit of luck, hard work and
determination.
I did, I did graft pretty a lot,
to be honest with you.
Yeah, that's quite interesting because there's often in
success a combination of nature versus choices.
Right.
(04:46):
So you're going to have a certain level
of natural inclination that's going to make you
successful at certain things.
And then you're going to make some choices
that will also push you.
So with you, it sounds like a lot
of it was about your natural skills and
natural predisposition.
Is that is that an accurate statement?
Yeah, I would say so, especially especially towards
(05:08):
the end of my career at that organisation.
At the beginning, I think I was quite
honest because when I was on recruitment, I
didn't even know what it was.
I just wanted a job so I could
stay at a university.
And then I after two to three years
that I gained confidence in my capabilities and
then I knew the market like the back
of my hand.
And I was focused within Dynamics Business Central.
(05:29):
I knew absolutely everything about the technology.
I knew I could walk into a kitchen
in somebody's house and tell them the ERP
system of what the toaster, the manufacturer of
the toast used, or who the fridge manufacturer
was, or the fact that this company or
the towels, I knew that the manufacturer of
their towels and the distributor, I knew the
(05:49):
ERP system of that.
So I really did take pride in understanding
the market.
And I think with that came more confidence.
Because when people ask me questions, I was
able to answer that with full conviction and
just actually know what I'm talking about.
And I think that naturally, well, I know
that naturally leads into more leadership positions because
people have more trust in you.
(06:10):
And, you know, they want you to succeed
because you are the expert in that field.
Yeah, that answers your question.
I'd like to take you back to something
you mentioned, which is that at one point
you were the only female leader, team leader
in the organisation where you were working.
So have you observed the Microsoft tech space
(06:33):
in the recruitment area specifically to be still
very masculine overall?
And like, how was it for you as
a woman?
And what did you think it brought you
to be a woman in that particular space?
Yeah, I think in my area of the
business, which was focused within the United Kingdom,
(06:53):
and then it was just more Microsoft focus.
I was the only female manager at various
points.
So sometimes people would come, they would go,
they would get promoted, but then they would
move into a more of an account manager
position or more just pure business development.
And we were fortunate enough that we had
a very, you know, admirable CEO who was
a female.
She was big on pushing female talent.
(07:15):
And then we had various mentor programmes within
the organisation where if they saw that there
was somebody who would be a possible leader,
they would actually get mentored regardless of somebody,
somebody's gender, somebody more higher up in the
company.
I would say in terms of the wider
tech space and recruitment as well, both of
those are more male dominated industries.
(07:38):
At one point when I was more of
a senior consultant, I think it was the
only female on the team.
I think there was like 13 lads and
there was only me.
And you definitely do have to have the
capacity to have lad banter, I would say,
which isn't always the best.
But I do think as things have evolved
over the past six years, that mentality and
that sales look culture, I guess you could
(07:59):
argue, has really diminished over time.
Well, especially in, you know, my previous employers
and when I speak to other organisations.
But I can't say that as a sweeping
statement for the whole of the industry, because
I imagine certain recruitment firms are a very
laddish culture.
It is unfortunately one of those things at
the moment.
(08:20):
But you do have to have a bit
of a thick skin.
But I think in any sales, well, I
know in any sales position, that's just the
nature of the beast.
Because it is, I do say recruitment is
the hardest form of sales because you're not
selling a product that you can control.
You're selling, it sounds awful to put it
in this way, but you are selling a
skill set and a person and a personality.
(08:42):
And I could tell you some horrendous horror
stories where people have gone to interviews and
you've spent hours with them on the phone
with teams talking to them.
This is an amazing opportunity.
The offer's coming.
Then they rock up to an interview in,
you know, joggers and a hoodie and pre
-pandemic that was not allowed.
You know, they were going into Canary Wharf
and yeah, it's just horrendous stories like that.
(09:05):
Or people were hired and then they found
out that they were criminals and all these
things because they'd lied to you.
Yeah, there's genuinely a lot of horror stories.
I don't think I could even go into
detail around them.
Some of them are horrific, but it is
difficult because, as I said, you're not just
selling telephone.
You're not selling a solution.
You're selling a person, like in their character,
(09:26):
which is, again, awful to put it.
But it is, in my opinion, one of
the most difficult forms of sales.
Definitely, it is a very challenging area, especially
in tech.
Yes, so competitive.
It's interesting because I didn't actually realise that
the recruiters in our space were majorly male.
(09:46):
And we do have still a challenge of
diversity in the Microsoft tech space.
And I think that it's interesting to think
about this, that the lack of diversity in
the recruiters might actually have an effect in
the lack of diversity in our space as
a whole.
Because it is important to be thinking about
who's the person who's helping you find your
talent and how their personal life experience might
(10:08):
affect the choices they make.
What candidates they're going to put forward, what
candidates they're going to support, how they're going
to guide the candidates, how they're going to
advise you.
There's actually a lot of impact on.
And I think as well, just to point
out, in terms of understanding the requirements of
(10:29):
specific candidates and being empathetic.
If you have a bunch of 22-year
-old lads who are on your hiring team,
again, there's nothing wrong with that.
But obviously, they're going to attract a specific
type of candidate.
They won't necessarily attract a working mother who
needs part time.
And would they understand that a working mother
needs part time and that they need more
flexibility because they haven't been in that position
(10:51):
yet in their lives or if they will
be.
So it's that character as well, I guess.
That's a really interesting point.
I've never even considered that.
That's why I think recruitment strategies are a
constant review of who you have on your
team, what sort of calibre you're attracting and
what strategies you have in place to attract
and retain talent is key, especially at the
(11:11):
start of a company.
You have these huge, huge organisations who have
been in the tech space for years, who
have really established recruitment teams.
But if they're always the same team and
they don't rely on external resources, then surely
they're always going to be resourcing from the
same pool.
And that quantity of candidates will often always
be the same.
As much as we like to pretend there's
(11:33):
new people coming into the market and into
the ecosystem, there definitely isn't the same.
And obviously, that's something I've discussed quite a
lot at several conferences recently, where we don't
have that skills.
I can't think of the word.
Skill influx, right?
Influx, there we are.
(11:53):
We don't have that influx of new tech
talent coming from younger generations.
All the partners have the same conversation with
the recruiters.
We need somebody with five to seven years
experience.
We need a senior consultant.
We need them on site four days a
week.
That's just not going to fly anymore.
If you want those people, you're going to
have to take from your possible partners, especially
(12:16):
in the BC space.
Most people actually work together, rely on each
other, especially within the ISVs.
So what does that do?
It creates a negative atmosphere and not that
community sense that Microsoft want.
So people really need to invest in new
talent and find potential.
And also the cross-training element is something
I know is being discussed quite significantly.
And I personally have placed a lot of
(12:39):
cross-trainers from other ERP systems or other
industries and those candidates because of their onboarding.
And they tend to be more invested into
the process rather than just chasing the high
salaries, which often you can find, especially post
-pandemic with the salary and inflation within the
space, because that was mad at some point.
(13:01):
So I had developers requesting £75,000 and
they only had five years experience.
It got really crazy with the salaries.
Yeah, that's true.
And some of the bigger partners obviously can
pay that because they've got the budgets, they've
got those projects in place.
But what does that do to the small
partners?
It's not fair for them.
So that's another issue in itself.
(13:23):
We can probably talk about that for 45
minutes.
Well, let's stay a little bit in talent
strategies because we do want to leverage what
you know about this.
And as you know, this podcast is mostly
for Microsoft end users.
And we talked a little bit about the
challenges within the Microsoft tech recruitment industry as
(13:43):
a whole.
Now, when you're coming into this as an
end user company, you're not specialising in tech
recruitment.
It's not your area of expertise because you're
recruiting across the board and your tech hiring
is just a tiny part of your overall
hiring strategy.
So what are some of the top tips
(14:04):
you could share with end users, people who
don't know that much about tech recruitment, but
they will need more and more tech skills
now.
And it's really important to have the right
tech people in place internally.
So if I'm an end user company and
I'm wanting to hire Microsoft talent and I'm
not used to it and I don't really
know where to start, what are some things
(14:25):
I can do to find the right talent?
What are the top tips for things I
would need to keep in mind when I'm
conducting my tech hiring strategies?
Yeah, definitely.
I always find that end users are often
the best customers to work with, majority of
the time, because you know that that person
that you place at that company is going
(14:46):
to be life changing for the organisation in
terms of their processes, their business systems, whether
it's a business systems analyst.
I've done quite a few of them.
We're skilled within Power Platform, you know, or
you've done your senior at CTOs and everything
like that.
I find end users, you know, and they
also are in a position where they want
to learn because, as you said, it is
(15:08):
very difficult.
Several of them have come into the industry
relatively naive in a way.
You don't necessarily know what to do, what
to expect, how competitive it is.
It's not like just hiring for your standard
IT support person.
If you want a higher, more senior professional
or somebody who has solo focused skills within
Microsoft technologies, you know, the majority of the
(15:31):
time there's seven or eight other organisations who
are trying to fight for this person as
well.
So there are two things I would always
say to every end user.
Well, probably three, actually.
One of them is ensure that you have
attractive technologies.
OK, you want to be competitive.
Most people want to work for a partner
because like, well, I'll be working with the
latest technologies, I'll be working on really interesting
(15:51):
projects.
But if you offer them the same opportunity
within an end user space that tends to
be often more stable jobs or more of
a job for life, that often is a
character within the end user space.
If you're working with AI or you have
a really outdated system, but you've got a
(16:12):
budget allocated and they can come in and
take full ownership of that, that is so
attractive to so many candidates out there.
The way that I would divide candidates, especially
pre-pandemic, was people who wanted to work
for partners and people who wanted to work
for end users.
And you would have a conversation with them.
Would you prefer end user or partner?
And they would say one or the other.
(16:32):
There were a couple of people that would
say, oh, I'm not really bothered.
But the reason is because partners used to
be on the road four or five days
a week.
You know, you'd be on an F&O
project, you'd be gallivanting around the world.
And it's not as glamorous as it seems.
You tend to spend most of your life
in airports or in the office of a
random place in a city somewhere.
And then you've got the end users who
(16:54):
will, you know, want something that's relatively local.
I just want a more relaxed life and
I want to be able to make a
difference.
And see, the quote that pretty much everybody
would say, was see the difference I make
as a person and see all my hard
work and what that has on the company.
That's what a lot of the end user
candidates.
But since cloud, teams, the pandemic, obviously those
(17:18):
two lines have come a lot more blurred
and more merged.
So it's really about finding what that candidate
wants and how you as an organisation suit
it and what's appealing.
So attractive technology, modern technology or a budget
and a strategy in place to ensure that
you attract these talents.
Just be honest with the candidates.
(17:38):
If you have a horrendous NAV2009 system that's
so massively like customised, it's not even recognisable
from NAV, then that's fine.
But tell the candidate, they're not going to
be frustrated with you as long as they
know.
So being honest, another avenue I would say
(17:58):
is, obviously I am biassed, but use a
recruiter, use a consultant, use somebody who has
an external expertise.
Because if you're coming into this industry relatively
blind, you've not actually hired for this position
for the last 15 years because the person
is retiring or they've moved to another company
or, you know, they just have gone part
time.
(18:18):
The space has changed so much in the
past three years that you actually are coming
in with blinders on because you genuinely have
no idea what's happening.
So if you even have a conversation with
a recruiter, get their expertise, have a consultant
come in.
The reason the recruitment industry is an industry
separate now to HR is because it has
become so competitive.
It is so intense.
(18:40):
People are fighting for several positions, especially the
senior talent in the market.
They've got four or five offers coming into
the table.
It's honestly, it's a bit of a minefield
out there.
So you really want to have the support
and the expertise of a consultant who's relatively
senior in their industry so that you can
(19:00):
rely upon them.
And then a lot of, in my opinion,
all the recruiters I've ever worked with don't
want to provide you with a candidate that
will leave in six months time because it's
not good for us.
We don't want to provide you with a
product that you don't like at the end
of the day.
So we've got a vested interest, especially the
more seniors within the industry, retaining that relationship
(19:22):
with you guys, making sure that you find
the best candidate that's going to make the
most difference.
So rely upon those experts.
We do it 60, 70 hours a week
sometimes.
And we're the ones who are on the
front lines dealing with all these issues that
happens.
And counter offers is something everyone's dealing with
at the moment.
And the recruitment consultants have strategies in place
(19:44):
in their own personal process to alleviate that
issue.
And we will be very transparent if especially
the way that we work as an organisation
is we have these processes in place.
If I think a candidate's money motivated, I'm
not going to waste your time and put
that profile in front of you.
Why would I do that?
So a lot of end users don't even
have time or the expertise to get somebody
(20:04):
on their team.
Why not use somebody?
Outsource the responsibilities.
It saves you so much time and effort.
And at the end of the day, you
should be provided with a premium product.
It sounds awful to say it in these
words.
I do feel guilty by using this terminology,
but that's how you simplify it.
(20:25):
To finding the best tech talent is if
you don't have that person in your team
internally to find somebody, rely on somebody externally.
So if you can, do use a recruiter
or just get their opinion.
There's a lot of recruits out there.
You might know somebody who knows somebody who
can give you a bit of advice.
Obviously, just reach out to them, have a
conversation, ensure that you've got attractive technology.
(20:49):
And the final point I would say is
the recruitment process in itself is very important.
Years ago, I would always recommend, you know,
the shortest process as possible.
You know, one stage, get them in the
door.
I would never recommend that these days.
I would always try and advise at least
(21:10):
for a face-to-face meeting if it's
going to be one stage.
And I kind of shoot myself in the
foot this and a lot of recruiters will
be listening to this going, why are you
saying that?
But it used to be the candidate had
to impress the hiring manager.
Nowadays, as a customer, because it is candidate
shop market, you're the ones who actually need
(21:31):
to impress the candidate because of how many
people they will be speaking to.
So if you've got a process where you
meet them face to face, show your personality,
show the company character, have those values and
represent that you're a modern, progressive company, probably
flexible working.
If that's not a possibility, again, be honest
with the candidates, but they want to feel
as though that they are valued as a
(21:53):
person that you're investing time in this process.
Which again is why you should always give
candidates feedback.
If it's a yes, no, three bags full,
they don't care.
Give them feedback.
The industry is very small.
That really matters.
So, yeah, investing time in them.
I have had candidates before who have actually
taken offers £10,000 less than another offer
(22:13):
because they genuinely felt that that company cared
more about them.
And they because of the recruitment process, it
was two stages in person.
And if that's not a possibility, that's OK.
Obviously, we're remote organisations, but have that rapport
with the candidates.
And if the candidate at the end of
the day, if you're interviewing them and you
think they're not the personality I want, that's
(22:34):
fine.
But you also need to know this before
you go and hire someone and then you
realise they're not the team culture.
Obviously, that's also key, making sure that the
person fits.
Yeah, so there are three points that I
could go into a lot of detail surrounding
those topics.
And I do believe it is on a
case by case basis, but a generalised question
for the end users.
(22:54):
Good strategy.
If you know if you need assistance on
that, use a recruiter and have attractive talent
or at least a budget to move that
forward.
Yeah, and that makes a lot of sense
because if you think about it, it's it's
quite a complex area.
Right.
Like even just how do you build your
job adverts when you're not really clear about
(23:15):
what are the latest tech skills that you
might need based on the technology that you've
got in your in your organisation?
That's the first hurdle.
Then how do you actually know who's a
good candidate versus who's not if you don't
have the technical know-how to screen for
that?
And then there's another part that I'd like
to get your thoughts about as well, because
when you're a consultant and you're joining a
(23:37):
Microsoft partner, which is where a large proportion
of consultants go, usually you're going to have
a career track, you're going to have a
lot of support with training, where it's like
adapted to your specific role.
When you're an end user, you might not
have those things in place.
How do you actually nurture tech talent?
So do you have some tips you can
(23:58):
share with end users for how they can
retain tech talent if they don't have that
whole infrastructure already in place?
Definitely.
I would say if you can do, try
and get the infrastructure in place in terms
of the onboarding process.
That, again, is so key.
I've spoken to a lot of candidates who
(24:18):
have placed end users over the years.
And this is, again, from IT service line
support through to CTO.
You know, they've joined the company.
There's no documentation.
They have no idea what to do.
They don't know what the issue is.
So first, if there's a possibility and you've
got time there, get your documentation up to
scratch.
So they actually know what they're joining or
(24:39):
what they're coming in for.
And the onboarding process is key because that's
when the first six to eight weeks, 12
weeks, six months, depending on your, is handholding,
making sure that you do weekly check-ins
with the candidates, especially if they're working from
home.
They don't want to be sat there in
a room, not feeling as if they're part
of an organisation.
Some people like that, but majority of the
(25:02):
time they want to feel like they're valued
and they've got purpose within the organisation.
So refine that.
There are specific organisations who have mentoring programmes.
I know that that's something yourself, Sandra, have
looked quite a lot into and you've designed
a mentoring programme.
So there are resources out there which end
users can reach out to and rely upon
to teach internal staff how to correctly onboard
(25:24):
people and how to ensure that they're invested
in the organisation.
Another point I would say is ask them
what they want.
You know, it's sounds a bit obvious, but
if you've got somebody who wants to be
the IT operations manager in the future, then
(25:45):
ask them, OK, well, that's the job I
want.
Eventually I want to retire in the next
10 years.
So let's put you on a pathway there.
How did I make it there?
All right.
And get that constant feedback from the candidate.
And we've been in a position where I've
spoken to end users about actually altering job
titles and developing positions.
But to retain a strong candidate is to
(26:06):
ensure that they think that they're valued and
cared about.
You've got that progression for them.
No glass ceiling.
That's the most frustrating thing for any candidate.
Well, it's the next step for me.
If he's not going to retire or she's
not going to retire in the next five
years, then where am I going to go?
Well, OK.
Have these conversations with them to ensure that
they know that you're where your heads are
(26:27):
and that you're on their side and that
it's not them fighting against you to get
that promotion or anything along those lines.
But yeah, really just ask the candidates what
they want and see what you can do.
Investing in them in terms of certifications.
A lot of candidates we work with, you
know, they want to be working with the
Power Platform.
They want to be building apps.
They want to be doing that.
And all of that is in their full
(26:47):
responsibilities.
If that's something that they're passionate about, why
not fund that?
And then they could be so heavily involved
in different building, different processes.
So bottom your finance team, you know, creating
a Power BI dashboard that could save your
finance department three days a week.
That will help everybody.
(27:08):
So if they've got this talent, really foster
that and invest time in it because they
will value that as a person.
Because again, it gives them purpose.
You're respecting what they want, their boundaries.
And it is, unfortunately to a lot of
people out there, the customers out there, it
is the candidates who are in charge these
days.
So that's really what you want to do.
Also, they'll be happier and bring a lot
(27:28):
more better atmosphere to the organisation.
If they feel like you've got the back,
they're just going to be better employed to
work with.
So that would be my two cents on
that one.
That makes a lot of sense because when
you think about it, if you upskill your
tech talent properly, everyone wins, right?
There's always new things happening in technology.
There's always new things for someone to learn.
(27:50):
And if you're, especially if you're an end
user and you have a small IT team
with just a few people, the more they
know, the more they can actually support you
to roll out your internal technology.
So it's definitely a win, win, win, win,
win, win to do this.
100% because if you invest a little
bit of money in them, then in the
(28:10):
long run, it'll save you so much time,
efficiency.
So although it's an initial investment, it will
save you time and money down the line.
Absolutely.
Which is what everybody wants these days, you
know, loves a bit of automation, don't we,
in the market.
So let's talk a bit more about skills,
because right now we've got two really big
things happening in our space, Microsoft technology.
(28:32):
So if you're a Microsoft technology end user,
you've probably heard a great deal about Copilot
recently.
And there's also Power Platform, which is a
big thing.
It's a little, well, it started a few
years ago, but it's getting bigger and bigger.
And it's definitely a technology that's extremely successful.
And there's a number of companies that haven't
yet gotten into those technologies.
(28:54):
So what would be, from your point of
view, the skills that are going to be
important as an end user to target thinking
about future proofing your company?
Because eventually most companies who want to be
successful, they're going to have to move to
Power Platform.
They're going to have to move to Copilot
or equivalent solutions.
So what are the skills, the tech skills
(29:16):
that are going to be most important in
the next few years when you look at
what's happening in our space right now?
So in terms of when you're hiring for
people who have the potential to develop these
skills, I would always, is that the way
you.
That's the way I would look at this
(29:36):
question.
So what the way I would approach it
is I always find that candidates who have
that attention to detail and everybody says this.
Especially if you speak to a lot of
the finance professionals who are transitioning into this
or they've done the AATs or yeah, AATs
have started their CCAs.
And they're like, oh, I don't know if
(29:57):
I want this.
You do a lot.
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