November 11, 2025 • 42 mins
Welcome to the End of the World Podcast, Episode 54! This week E-Kan and Rían discuss the Martin Luther King, Jr. - Open AI controversy and the scramble to remove inappropriate Martin Luther King, Jr. Deep Fake videos. (*Disclaimer: there was a mishap with E-Kan's audio for this episode. Major apologies and it was a fluke, we promise.) Also Hollywood’s elite agencies like CAA and UTA have made statements calling out Open AI, opting their clients out. The guys will break down what you need to know to protect yourself, what states have AI protections, and why CAA already has a vault of digital replicas of its clients.
E-Kan also brings up an interesting study about how seeing unauthorized likenesses of yourself can feel like actual physical pain.
But don’t worry, it’s not all doom and gloom - they dive into their creative inspirations and favorite musicians, Mac Miller, David Bowie, and the shocking revelation that E-Kan knows nothing about the Beatles. And you’ll hear his crazy hot take on the piano vs the guitar.
A timely blend of AI anxiety and personal revelation you didn’t know you needed.
Follow us @actorsguidepodcast on all social media and wherever you find your podcasts. Video on YouTube and Substack!
@ekansoong @riansheehykelly
https://variety.com/2025/film/news/caa-openai-sora-2-harmful-intellectual-property-1236543954/
https://variety.com/2024/digital/news/caa-vault-talent-ai-clones-veritone-1236001187/
Hidden Gems:
Line Learner App
The Almanack of Naval Ravikant https://www.navalmanack.com/
Time Stamps:
(0:00) Intro
(1:48) The first time E-Kan was on stage
(5:35) Sora 2 has a Martin Luther King Jr problem
(09:00) The states that have AI protections
(12:00) Tilly Norwood creator has 40 more AI Synthetics to be released
(13:05) How do you protect yourself if you're deep faked
(14:50) Technology is everything that doesn't work yet
(19:00) Who's older - The Beatles or Abba?
(22:55) E-Kan's hot take on the piano vs the guitar
(25:00) E-Kan's limited music tastes and obsession over Mac Miller
(32:50) How Labyrinth and David Bowie blew Rían's mind
(37:10) A surprising study when you see unauthorized photos of yourself
(39:30) Hidden Gems
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
People who saw themselves in
photos that were unauthorized,
their reaction was
similar to physical pain.
When you see yourself
that's out of your control,
it actually causes pain
that's similar to physical pain.
What are we talking now?
Are we talking like a dead
leg or like a flick in the ear?
(00:21):
I'm hoping on my boundaries.
When I told you that I
saw Hamilton and I was like,
oh, this is what I've been missing.
Things like the Beatles,
maybe I would like the Beatles.
Like I don't know how many there are.
You don't know how
many Beatles there are?
What the fuck?
All right, welcome to the Actors Guide
to the End of the World Podcast
where we talk about
acting in Hollywood and white.
(00:42):
People understand, I'm E-Kan Soong.
And I am Rían Sheehy Kelly.
Follow us wherever you find your podcasts
at Actors Guide Podcasts.
We're on all social media.
We're on YouTube.
We're on Substack.
Make sure you like and subscribe.
It really helps the channel.
On the show for today,
Sore 2 gets called out by none other
than Martin Luther King Jr's estate.
(01:05):
Uh-oh.
And we also talk about
how you can protect yourself
from getting deep faked.
Dive into the past and
talk about child inspirations.
We talk about our favorite music.
And guess what?
She tells me who the Beatles are.
Did not foresee this one.
Didn't foresee this one coming.
I didn't expect to be explaining the
(01:25):
Beatles to you today.
Yeah, if you haven't
heard of them, stick around.
And today's show is brought to you by
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(01:46):
Now in "Crux".
Hi, this is a little
weekend, special weekend.
I'm actually going to Boston.
I'm having a little reunion with friends
and it just dawned on me.
These college friends
are actually the reason why
I even got into
acting in the first place.
(02:07):
Oh yeah.
So I go to college and I
become friends with this guy
who dreamed about being a director.
We became best buddies
and we were just doing shows
for all the clubs in college.
No desires of being an actor.
We were just putting on shows.
What are the clubs in American colleges?
(02:27):
Sorry, just to interrupt.
Like the Asian club?
The Asian club, sounds fun.
You're actually welcome to white people.
There's plenty of white people in there.
You know, they're
gonna join the Asian club?
100%, are you kidding me?
There's like Christian fellowships.
There's like, you
know, Jewish fellowships.
There's all different,
there was like, you know,
(02:48):
free Tibet was a big thing back then.
Yeah, Asian appreciation.
Dude, they welcome everyone.
Anyway, they have the trainees club,
they have the Korean club.
Anyway, so we were putting in shows
for 50, sometimes hundreds of people.
And just coming up with
skits, coming up with sketches.
(03:08):
See, this is the thing.
I didn't even count this as a thing.
It was just something
that we goofed off and did.
And secretly I was like,
oh, I kind of like this.
If I need me and my buddy Danny,
I don't know if this,
any of this would happen.
We eventually drove my car from Jersey,
moved to LA together.
And the cutest thing was
(03:30):
me and him would fight over,
which one of us was
Matt Damon or Ben Affleck.
Spoiler alert, neither of us.
I think we were both spending
over trying to be Matt Damon,
but I think either of
them would have been good.
Anyway, so.
Is that the cooler?
Yeah, I probably would
have thought to be Matt Damon.
Oh, this is the thing.
And that duo.
(03:51):
Ben Affleck changed his kind of brand
when he started directing.
Obviously he won an
Oscar and all that stuff.
So this was before that.
Sometimes you just need a little opening
and then you just go in
and you have that luxury
when you're young.
All these aspirations and
fantasies of being Matt Damon
and Ben Affleck, that's great.
(04:13):
And that lasts for a while.
And then after a while,
all those fantasies are done
and you just have to work your ass off.
And it's mostly very
boring and very grueling.
Yeah.
I know I'm getting decured right now.
Actually, just when
you're talking about college
in free Tibet, there
was a Chinese student
(04:35):
that had been imprisoned
by the Chinese government.
I think his name is,
maybe I'm not gonna
pronounce this right, but Xiaoming.
It's like X-A-O-Ming at the time.
And there was a sign up.
I don't know if it's
Xiaoming or Xiaoming.
But there was a sign up in college
and there was posters
all over for the student
that had been imprisoned.
And I heard a girl walk past it.
This was when I was in college
and I heard a girl walk past, she goes,
(04:56):
"Oh, free Xiaoming, I
wonder what that tastes like."
I'm living.
Shut up, shut up.
I swear to God.
No, that is real, I swear to God.
She thought it was free Chinese food.
So that was Future Leaders of our Country
at UCD in Dublin.
(05:17):
Circa 2003-ish.
See, it was worth it for
me to bring up that story
because of that.
I just, when you said the free Tibet,
I just remembered that story,
but then I couldn't
remember the name of the student.
So it took me a second to think about it.
So yeah, well, I
mean, free Xiaoming, baby.
All right, so Word Around Town,
we've touched on this a little bit,
(05:39):
but Door 2 is an app.
It's one of the latest text to video app.
You put in a prompt,
it comes out with realistic images,
videos of who knows you,
your friends, your loved ones.
And so they got in some
hot water this past month.
Videos of Martin Luther
King were circulating,
(06:00):
unauthorized and disrespectful,
completely inappropriate.
And sure enough, that's
someone that you don't wanna really
mess around with
their image and likeness.
So sure enough, Sword
2 had to remove them.
The fact that Sword 2 and OpenAI
actually does anything
these days is actually,
that's kind of the signal.
(06:22):
So someone else generated this,
someone else put in
like, make a video of...
Exactly, exactly.
So it's no different than--
Why did they remove them
above anyone else's though?
Was it just because of who it was?
Like you could apply
that to anyone's likeness.
I know Martin Luther
King's like a, you know,
like a much revered figure,
but I mean, is this the
(06:44):
same logic applied to anybody
or is it, can you get
anybody removed is what I'm asking.
This is exactly what we're getting into.
The problem is, is when
you're not Martin Luther King
and you're not repped by CAA,
what do us, you know, normal
civilians do in this day and age
when you don't have an estate
(07:05):
and you don't have that kind of leverage?
On that note, CAA
also put out a statement
that slammed open AI, they are outraged,
issued a statement,
serious and harmful risks
to clients intellectual property,
meaning they're very upset
because they're not
going to get paid for it.
So they do not want any of their clients,
(07:28):
they're opting out for
all of their clients.
Side note, CAA is no
dummy, they're very smart
and they're actually
very, very ahead of the game.
Years ago, after the strike, they
launched the CAA Vault,
which is a database of every,
all of their clients digital replicas.
We already have been collecting
(07:50):
their clients digital replicas.
They're ready to work,
they're ready to make money
and unfortunately, none of
us have leverage or power
to be able to do that.
This is not news,
it's all about the money.
We don't, CAA is saying, we don't know
how to monetize this
so we want all of our clients off of it
and everyone else is
talking about the ethical issues
of how do we self-govern this one?
(08:12):
All of our images are
possibly flying around
and possibly being misused.
Yeah, I've just read a quote of it says,
"Think of it like a bank."
CAA is head of strategic development,
Alexandra Shannon says,
"If somebody now owns
their digital likeness assets,
"anyone who chooses to do anything
"other than work with
that individual now,
"there's a stronger case to show
"that they're
infringing on their rights."
(08:34):
It's not so long ago when we were talking
about the California AI
bills and sure enough,
now it's time and now it's relevant
because these bills are
still one of the few things
that are protecting not just actors
but also just normal citizens.
It's like back in the
day, everyone was like,
(08:55):
"Oh, look at you geeks
talking about AI bills."
Well, sure enough.
Yeah, especially to you.
Yeah, exactly, especially to me.
So we have California,
you can pursue civil action
if your name and likeness
signature voice is used.
So these are, I mean, this is a handful
of these things in these states.
(09:16):
It's quite forward
thinking for California.
I don't know how many
states have that bill
but I remember that was one of the first,
I think, in the country, right?
Exactly.
So California is one of them.
It's called the AI Transparency Act,
can pursue civil action.
There's also a
post-mortem right to privacy.
So for people, celebrities,
essentially, after their past,
(09:39):
most states don't have this.
Yeah.
And then famously, Tennessee,
congrats to Tennessee,
they have the Elvis Act.
It protects unauthorized use of lyrics
because obviously they love
music, Elvis, even Colorado.
Perhaps the Colorado,
they have the artificial intelligence act
(09:59):
requiring all consumers
to be aware they're working
with AI, that's it.
That's literally it.
Which is, and I saw that the creator of,
the woman who created
Tilly Norwood, the AI actor,
has said today, I know.
I just saw that.
I just saw that.
That she said that,
oh, it's only designed
to be in a category of AI,
like there's
(10:19):
animation and then there's AI
and it was only, I don't,
it won't threaten actors.
To be honest, I think
not out of intention
but I actually currently
don't think it does threaten
actors because
they're so fucking bad that,
I get really irritated at AI videos.
(10:40):
There's so many of them,
even the likeness things
like the MLK thing,
there's a lot of videos I know,
I noticed how pop up on
social media that are like,
these celebrities talking to,
dead celebrities talking
to each other in heaven.
And it's like this really manipulative,
like blatant attempt
to get clicks and likes
(11:02):
and it's just awful.
It turns me off so
much, I'm like, oh God.
The term AI slop
exists for a reason, right?
If it gets past the cute appeal of,
quick 15 second
little hit of something odd
or interesting or
absurd, that's one thing.
(11:22):
We're going to get
bombarded with all this stuff.
I mean, Sora too is literally an app
that will just feed you this job.
This is the moment where we
see, do we want this stuff?
Do we need this stuff?
And people like you
and me, for that matter,
are just going to get more annoyed.
And this is where they test the market.
On that Tilly Norwood thing, by the way,
(11:43):
she literally just announced.
The crazy thing is I
actually thought that she was
kind of accurate saying
that AI might be a genre
and we'll see who wins in
the market share of attention.
So, I mean, that's fine.
She literally just announced,
she has 40 more AI
actors in the pipeline.
(12:04):
I saw that too.
Brilliant, can't wait to meet them all.
It's just kind of odd how she was kind of
like dealing with backlash and saying,
no, no, no, I'm not sure
I'm playing a sidekick.
Oh, by the way, get set
because I have 40 more,
whatever you call them,
40 synthetic performers
ready to mingle.
(12:24):
Why the waste?
Just unleash them on the world.
So let's talk about
how to protect yourself.
If you're not with CAA,
if you're a normal person,
unfortunately, there's only
so many things you can do.
It's self-govern.
It's in the terms of
Sora too, don't get on it.
(12:46):
Don't let them take your picture.
I mean, that sounds silly,
but it makes a lot of sense.
Back in the day when they had
all these cool little filters
where they put your
face with puppy dog guys
and everyone was just doing it.
Like those, we didn't
realize that they were actually
using all of our data
for whatever reason.
(13:06):
And years later, it's
things like that where I'm like,
I'm not giving them my picture.
I'm not a person for me.
I'm not on Sora too.
Don't need it, don't want it.
You guys can very well have
fun and play around with it,
but I'm not getting on it.
So don't give them your picture.
As far as, like CAA's
case, entertainers are getting
(13:27):
their agents to opt out.
Studios are flagging problematic content,
but that's mostly with IP.
The one thing I will say is each app
actually has a clanging
that you can file for
inappropriate use of your image
and that's it.
So these California AI bills,
(13:48):
thank God we have them in California,
but other than that, good luck.
There's a TikTok claim
that you can fill out.
There's a meta claim.
There's all the apps and that's it.
And you basically
hope that they remove it.
There's no monetary penalty.
(14:08):
This is not like copywriting fridgement.
This is, hey, oh, sorry, our bad.
So Martin Luther King's estate.
Yeah, we'll just take that down.
Yeah, we're good.
There's no financial consequence.
That's the difference.
Which is usually the
only thing that has teeth
because I mean, that's ultimately what
companies care about
(14:29):
is their bottom line.
Exactly.
And so all these forward thinker, forward
thinking politicians
who want to rub elbows
with Silicon tech companies,
they don't want to push those things
because it hurts their money
and it hurts their logging.
So I actually just
stumbled across this gem.
This is literally a gem.
I thought it was so brilliant.
Is it hidden?
(14:50):
This is a tease.
The book that I read it from
is going to be my hidden gem.
Danny Hillis is an
inventor and entrepreneur.
He was quoted, "Technology is everything
that doesn't work yet."
Explain that to me.
I know exactly.
Because it took me a while
to wrap my head around it.
That's why there's so
much wealth and money
(15:12):
and innovation and opportunity.
Because it's something
that doesn't work yet.
There was a lot of people who think
people might want this
and make a lot of money off of it.
It doesn't work yet,
but they're going to try to
get in the people's hands.
Now, the question is, is obviously,
do people even want what
AI is going to provide?
But the example is,
(15:33):
technology doesn't work yet.
AI for sure doesn't work yet.
There's so many things
that we have to figure out,
regulations, all that stuff.
Rockefeller, oil was a technology.
He made a lot of money when oil was new.
Now it's just like, oh,
yeah, this is how it works.
This is how it always works.
People are-- sure, there might be some
(15:53):
people making money,
but that's not innovation anymore.
Henry Ford, technology was the car.
Like, the car business right
now, that's not innovation.
That's something that we're
already been there, done that.
Right.
It's still technology, though.
This is what he looks at as technology.
And what is innovation?
(16:14):
And most, in this case,
is where the money is.
Now, you're very well right.
We can applaud the fact
that a Ford car runs well.
It takes us from A to B. But as far as--
Every time I see a Ford
car, I give a little clap
on the side of the road, as well.
Exactly, exactly.
You're the only one.
No one else.
(16:34):
I just--
My point is, it's kind of soldering in,
and it kind of makes a lot
of sense, the fact that, hey,
guys, this doesn't work yet.
It's going to make-- people are going to
make a lot of money.
And some things are going to break.
And we need to get proper regulation.
It's a little different
than with the internet rules.
When the internet happened, we had
internet regulations.
(16:55):
We have copyright infringement.
We have all those rules set in place.
That's true.
Remember dial-up?
Remember the noise the dial-up made?
Remember the cost of dial-up?
Exactly.
Now we take internet for granted.
Do I think of internet
as innovation right now?
No.
(17:15):
We're bitching about
how slow our speeds are.
This is true.
How quickly we accept things.
Exactly, exactly.
Yeah.
Well, let me just finish this thought.
Society always wants
new things, and that's
why there's so much money in it.
And once something works,
it's no longer technology.
That's according to him.
(17:35):
So anyway, we're swimming around.
We're trying to get
proper regulations on this.
And needless to say, it's
pretty clear it doesn't work yet.
Because AI is just the
latest version of that.
But remember when CGI
actors were a thing?
Like maybe five years ago.
That was like--
Oh, were you doing Marvel movies?
No, just the idea of a
(17:56):
completely digital actor.
Yeah, and this is what I mean.
When the technology became good enough
that they could bring
people who had died dead,
celebrities and stuff,
sort of back to life.
Oh, holograms.
Yeah, the holograms,
they had the technology
to make it look somewhat plausible.
(18:17):
That was a big deal.
That didn't really take off either,
really in the same way.
I mean, I know there's like--
I think it's still
really relevant, actually.
I just think this is the
latest iteration of that debate.
It's the latest version of it.
Because AI has the
power-- the technology of AI
has the power to sort of create it
(18:38):
without a ton of human input.
Yeah, I'm trying to
remember the other bands that--
I mean, to be honest, you wouldn't
know this better than me, Abba.
Abba is what?
European or something?
Why would I know Abba better than you?
Why-- how old do you think I am?
Aren't they European? Aren't they European or something?
They're Swedish.
Yes.
OK, OK, there you go.
There you go.
See?
(18:58):
You know?
There you go.
You knew that.
Huge in the 70s when
I wasn't alive, Econ.
Oh, and I didn't realize they're old.
What?
Shut up.
No, no, seriously, I
thought Abba would be just as old
as the Beatles or something.
No, the Beatles were in the 60s.
Abba were in the 70s.
Totally different kind of music.
I was actually younger.
I was actually younger than the Beatles.
(19:20):
Yes.
Oh, well, so they're not that old.
Have you seen how old the Beatles are?
No.
The remaining Beatles?
I don't actually-- I
actually don't know much about them
at all.
That's actually another conversation,
considering how I'm
trying to open up my--
Well, let's dig into this.
I'm opening up my
boundaries when I told you
I saw Hamilton, and I was like, oh, this
(19:42):
is what I've been missing.
Things like the
Beatles, it's like white noise.
I didn't even know--
maybe I would like the Beatles.
I have no idea of--
I don't know how many there are.
You don't know how
many Beatles there are?
No, like Rocco.
Rocco, John Lennon.
(20:02):
I know John Lennon.
This is a blind spot that I
didn't know existed in Europe.
This is what I'm saying.
This is all part about
the cultural imbedderment.
I'm open-minded now, where
there could be a whole world out
there that people have always loved,
that it just never was a thing.
(20:22):
It actually never was a thing.
Yeah, well, Rocco is probably the most
famous of all the Beatles.
There's no Rocco.
You're thinking of Ringo Starr.
Oh, that's it.
That's it.
Well, this is all right.
Well, let's talk about this for a second,
because I'm so
fascinated with this topic.
Don't you guys care
(20:42):
about the Beatles over there?
I mean, the Beatles were massive.
They were the biggest band
in the world at the time.
Look, I'm not a huge
Beatles fan, to be honest,
but I respect their place
in music and what they did
and how they transformed music at the
time, which is not--
I used to get shit for that when I'd say
it wasn't a big Beatles fan.
But I think it's my parents
were not huge Beatles fans.
(21:03):
They were bigger.
If you got shit for that, just imagine
the shit I'm going to get.
Yeah, the fact that I
didn't know Rocco was Ringo.
You're right there talking about Rocco.
Well, let me-- so it's Paul McCartney,
John Lennon, George Harrison,
and Ringo Starr.
Those are the Beatles.
So now you know.
So there's four.
(21:24):
Yeah, because there was always the talk
of the fifth Beatle.
I met Ringo Starr, actually.
I met Ringo Starr a couple of times here.
And then I came a little fist bump.
A fist bump?
Really?
A fist bump?
He didn't want to shake hands.
No, he's very-- he's quite old now.
He's in his hands.
OK.
(21:44):
But he was going on
tour with his new band.
So this is our music.
We're going to have a
music spin-off podcast.
So just see, wait,
Actors Guy in the music.
But this is actually-- let's
dig into this for a second.
That's great.
I love this.
I've been going to the--
we didn't have time to
talk about this last time
when I saw my Hamilton.
Well, let's talk about music then.
How much are you influenced by music?
(22:05):
Are you a big music fan?
I don't actually know this.
You're going to love this.
This is the perfect
time to tell you this,
because it's a hard take.
It's a hard take.
I grew up with music, but I
was playing classical piano.
My mom loved it.
I was forced to play it.
And eventually, I
became pretty good at it.
I learned to appreciate music later on.
(22:29):
I had absolutely no artistry.
Acting at a young age
would have helped me a lot.
But I was a robot.
I played technically.
There was no spiritual.
There was no emotion.
There was no heart behind any of it.
That's kind of how I always looked at it.
Classical music, I have a fondness for.
Everything else is kind of like white
(22:49):
noise for the most part.
So my hot take is a piano
has 100-some strings, right?
And it's so impressive.
There's so many strings.
I look at a guitar that
has like four or five.
Six.
Oh, there you go.
And I think it's just a stupid piano.
(23:11):
I look at a guitar, and I
just think it's a stupid piano.
And I know that's kind of disrespectful,
but this is coming
from someone who grew up
playing classical music.
So bridging off of that, there's a
handful of musicians
and artists that I obsessed over.
I'm talking about--
(23:31):
I listened to it.
I'll get obsessed about a musician.
Music isn't so not a part of my life.
And so I didn't grow up with musicals.
So in Hamilton and things like that,
there's just something
about the songs and whatever,
whether it's the
story and all that stuff.
It actually really did move
(23:51):
me, where I'm like, oh my god.
It was first ever musical where I was
really, really into it.
A lot of times, it's
like, oh, yeah, this is good,
but it's not for me.
I have a handful of things
that I really appreciate,
and I'm just obsessed.
And I listen to them eight, nine hours a
day when I'm working.
But it's a small hand.
Mostly classical?
(24:12):
No, actually, in all honesty, classical
is almost too intense.
Classical music is
actually too distracting
to have on the background.
I'll throw it on with
family for road trips.
But classical music is
really, really distracting.
It's too intense for me, actually.
(24:33):
This is fascinating.
So what would be--
I never really talked about this.
Give me an example of
a genre or something
that you would listen
to in the background.
When you're--
You know, there's a lot of-- on YouTube,
there's a lot of lo-fi playlists.
Basically, lo-fi is just good.
There's kind of a beat,
but it's kind of repetitive.
So that's not really music
(24:53):
I would choose to listen to.
It's just focus music.
So you want to know who this is.
Mac Miller.
Mac Miller is a--
OK, so you know.
He's that big.
I didn't appreciate Mac
Miller until a couple of years
after he passed.
Of course, rest in peace.
He passed from an overdose.
(25:17):
I didn't realize who he
was for all of his career.
How talented.
I didn't listen to a song.
He was all-- you know,
he had a TV show on MTV.
He was the most fun.
You know, obviously, he had his issues.
But he was the most fun,
soulful, creative artist.
I didn't even encounter his
(25:39):
music until after he passed.
I obsessed over his entire
album, all of his albums.
Right?
He passed, I believe, when he was 28.
I listened to all of them.
I still listen to all of them repeatedly.
I watched every
documentary, the one person
I've been listening to
for the past two years.
(25:59):
I know this is crazy.
So interesting to me.
I mean, I'm excited
for you because there's
a whole world of music out
there for you to just go over.
And you don't get bored.
I never, never.
Spotify will suggest things to you.
No, no, no, no.
I think Taylor Swift was
probably huge for seven,
eight years.
And I might have heard--
(26:19):
Well, I think she was a hard--
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
But what I'm saying is she was probably
famous for 10 years, but
seven, eight years into it,
I think I only heard one song.
And obviously, now I probably heard two.
How do you-- well, so for
example, for those of you
who don't know, Ikan does
a lot of the heavy lifting
of the technical side of this podcast,
(26:40):
including social media.
But you always pick music for the--
It's so funny you say that.
I despised the music selection on
Instagram and social media.
I love it.
I think it's--
I cannot--
I kind of understand that.
Yeah, yeah.
I cannot choose all the trending music
(27:00):
that is very current
and new.
I hate it.
Hate it.
Hate it.
Can't use it.
Can't use it.
This does explain some
of your music choices.
Yeah, this does explain some of your
music, which are not bad,
by the way.
They fit in a certain category.
This is where I would need your help.
There's a reason why I use the same
Wu-Tang instrumental
on every story, because I
don't have the bandwidth
(27:21):
to choose another song.
And if you actually--
I'm completely outing myself.
If you actually see most of my stories,
I'm usually using a Mac Miller song.
And that's literally how limited--
Mind blown.
OK, that's so interesting.
Yeah, I literally
have no library in here.
(27:42):
And I can't find anything.
So if you have suggestions, email us
at ActorsGuide Podcast at gmail.com.
And I'll throw out a second
mention for Childish Gambino.
Mac Miller and
Childish Gambino, that's it.
Childish Gambino, also known as--
Donald Glover.
There you go.
Very talented actor writer.
(28:03):
So there you go, man.
Yeah, you're knocking a wraparound down.
But it's interesting to
me that you are obviously
very interested in film,
but your musical tastes
are very specific.
Yeah, oh, I see what you're saying.
Actually, this is the perfect timing.
This is a great reminder.
This is the time of
year for SAG screenings.
So if you're in SAG, go get it.
(28:26):
This is the time of year I
try to watch a lot of movies
that I usually wouldn't see.
I actually think, since you mentioned it,
I actually think my film
and TV tastes are actually
fairly limited, very
similarly to my music tastes.
So in a way, I am actively trying
(28:50):
to listen and watch
more different things.
I think I need to see more things.
I actually think I need to
see more different TV shows.
On this note about the
musical aspects of film,
I was fortunate to have,
if I had any art in my life,
it was growing up with
a musical background.
But also, that is part of the
(29:12):
attraction where film and TV
is moving pictures.
And then you get to add
sound as well as dialogue.
And my mind is just blown.
It's one thing that people could be
obsessed about, 2D painting.
And you could love
painting and all that stuff.
And it's great.
But I was like, oh,
when I started editing,
and I could play around
with color correction,
(29:33):
or if you start editing and you start
crafting these things,
but also you can add music, and then you
have a visual element.
And then if you're acting as
well in it, my mind is blown.
So I think you and I are
similar in the world of,
there's so much out there.
And we could absorb a lot
of it and enjoy a lot of it.
You know what I mean?
(29:53):
Yeah.
I used to make--
when I was in primary school, I would
make these videos with
my friend Leo Crowley.
Stop motion.
Yeah.
So Leo is now-- he's a really talented
artist and animator.
We would make stop motion videos with
whatever toys we had around.
I would make-- we had a
camcorder in the house.
(30:14):
So I would make videos.
I would coerce my sister
into making these short films.
I did one where I got her to slide down
the stairs on an inflatable dinghy
that we had.
But I did it from--
the first shot was black, and then the
wardrobe doors opened from the inside.
(30:35):
And she was taking out the thing, and I
cut it together and whatever.
Another thing I discovered
was if you stopped the camera
and got someone out of the frame and then
started recording again,
they would just disappear in an instant.
So we did another little
short film where she was a witch,
where she had the ability to make herself
disappear and reappear.
Particularly in film, like film and TV,
music and film and TV
(30:56):
are kind of synonymous.
They really go-- one doesn't-- film and
TV doesn't really work without music,
either.
That's a huge part of it.
Some TV shows, like Sopranos--
I can't remember the term for this--
but they only use music that's in the
(31:19):
environment of the show.
They don't use--
Like a radio playing--
They're radio playing--
Exactly.
For the most part, I think.
I think there might be one or two
exceptions in the show.
But they were sort of famous for using
that style of music that's
only in the environment of the show,
which I thought was brilliant and so
effective, because I think
sometimes music can be used--
(31:41):
like overused in the sense that it is
designed to provoke an emotional
response from you, and it can feel a bit
manipulative at times.
And sometimes I want to be manipulated.
You know what I mean?
Sometimes I want the sad
music over the sad scene.
But when it's jarring or
incongruous with what's happening,
(32:02):
or it's too obvious, I
think it's very ineffective.
It's like the way Roger Deakins talks
about cinematography.
If you notice the cinematography, I
haven't done my job.
Because I don't think--
then the music should
feel, I think, like part of it.
But--
You're spot on.
It's the same thing with directing.
You don't want to feel the directing.
You don't want to feel the music.
You don't want to
feel the cinematography.
Yeah, you're completely right.
(32:23):
But I love when I just
get lost in something,
and I don't think about that stuff.
And at the end, I go, Jesus,
that was fucking brilliant.
Yeah.
But the music thing is interesting.
Because I think one
of the-- so the first--
there was a couple of movies
that had a huge effect on me
as a kid.
And one of them, I think
probably the most obvious--
the three Star Wars movies--
I remember I was sick one day.
(32:43):
My dad rented all three of them.
And we watched all three in the one day.
That was a huge--
[INAUDIBLE]
But the other movie that
had a massive effect to me
was the movie Labyrinth with
David Bowie, Jim Henson movie.
I was obsessed with all
of the Jim Henson world
when I was a kid.
I loved puppets.
(33:03):
And I was really into that.
And so this was a film
that has puppets and all
of these Jim Henson
creatures and David Bowie, who
was so fucking cool in that movie,
I couldn't even get my head around it.
A lot of people-- and I've talked to
people about this movie--
a lot in adulthood.
(33:24):
And some people found it really scary.
I found it so immersive and cool.
And I loved the idea of fantasy.
But there was a load of
songs in it, which I also loved.
And that kind of opened my
eyes to what a story could be
and what a film could be
and what fantasy could be.
And it just expanded
(33:45):
my imagination, I think,
in a very profound way as a kid.
And then it led me to
films like The Dark Crystal,
like another Jim Henson
movie with all these creatures.
But music was a big part of that,
and particularly with
Labyrinth, because music
was a big part of that movie.
And I think it just
gave me an appreciation
for how the two go together.
(34:06):
Through that, I became
really fascinated by David Bowie
just as a human being and
an artist and a creator.
Because it always seemed to me like this
was a guy that had to just
create to just stay alive,
to just keep breathing.
Because I went to--
there was a David Bowie exhibit in
Chicago a number of years
(34:27):
ago.
Oh, sorry.
This changed my life.
I went to an exhibition called Muppets,
Monsters, and Magic,
which was a traveling Jim
Henson exhibition, which
came to town.
Oh, hello.
That's cool.
And I got to see all these
things, and it blew my mind.
And then years later,
when I was living in Chicago,
I went to this David
Bowie exhibition in Chicago.
(34:50):
And it was incredible
that this guy turned his hand
to not only a musician,
but he designed clothing.
He wrote poetry.
He made films.
He did so many different
things and a great lesson
in, I think for
anybody, any creative person,
in just doing it and not
really giving a fuck what
(35:11):
anybody thought of it.
No, he may have.
I don't know.
The way he created suggested that there
was a wonderful feeling of
him just doing it for him,
just because he wanted to create.
He had to keep creating.
And I think that's a great
lesson for any actor or director
or any artist of any kind
to just keep creating stuff.
(35:34):
Dude, that's spot on.
I mean, if anything, that's a
beautiful way to explain it.
And that's exactly how
I feel about Mac Miller.
So David Bowie and Mac Miller.
He was away from his mic.
For anyone who could see this on YouTube,
show him tell time.
I can see that there.
So this is a print of David Bowie.
(35:57):
It's a framed print I have.
So I got this from a photographer
who had an archive of
images that he bought.
I think he came across
this archive of images.
So this archive of images, I think
he bought them sight unseen.
So he didn't know what was in them.
There was millions, I think
literally millions of images
in this digital archive.
(36:18):
And what he discovered when
he started going through it
was there were all of
these gems of like--
lots of different-- not just at Bowie.
Like, Bowie's just one of them.
But there's a million
different pictures of artists
taken by the original photographers.
And they still had-- they were slides.
You know, the old slides.
(36:39):
And they still had the
photographers writing--
the original writing from the
photographers on the slides
explaining what they wear.
And the company-- that one says London
Features International.
So he-- I think he sells
these prints of these things
for a fair amount of money.
(37:00):
But he just gave that one to
me because I was a Bowie fan.
And so was he.
And so was--
That's awesome.
The last thing before we wrap up here,
this whole thing with the AI likenesses,
it's easy for everyone to
be like, oh, yeah, of course.
You guys are actors.
You're so obsessed with
your likeness, your images.
I want to drop this on
(37:20):
you because I wasn't sure
if you ever heard of this.
There was a study--
a psychologist was explaining how
people who saw themselves in
photos that were unauthorized,
the reaction
emotionally and psychologically
was similar to physical pain.
(37:41):
This is across the
board as a human being.
If you see a photo,
say like on social media,
you post a group photo of your friends.
Maybe you didn't ask them, hey, can I
post this photo, blah, blah, blah.
This sounds like it's about vanity.
It's actually not.
There's a chemical response
that when you see yourself when
(38:02):
you're not--
that's out of your
control, or you see yourself
in a light that's out of your control,
it actually causes a pain
that's similar to physical pain.
What are we talking about?
Are we talking like a dead
leg or like a flick in the ear?
This is from a psychologist.
"The distress people feel is
(38:22):
in vanity about looking bad.
It's a genuine psychological response
to losing control over how they're
represented to the world."
So it's easy for us to
talk about as actors.
Oh, yeah, this is this.
Protect our right, blah, blah, blah.
This goes beyond just a bunch of actors
trying to get $0.10
for using our likeness.
This is about privacy in
(38:45):
the world where everyone
is videoing, recording, nonstop.
And it brings up a great point.
For us actors, sure, we're used to
getting our pictures taken,
but this goes worldwide, and
everyone's on social media.
So how are we going to protect ourselves?
What if we look good
in the picture, though?
Does that change the response?
I don't know.
Or if you're like, how dare
(39:06):
you take that fantastic picture
of me from that angle in that lighting?
You know, the irony is I'm
begging people to take my photo.
But that being said, normal people--
Yeah, you really are.
Well, going back to it, just imagine
Martin Luther King's
estate.
Just imagine how they feel.
There you go.
That's why we're trying to get
(39:27):
regulations here, everyone.
All right, let's go to
Hidden Gems real quick.
Let me drop them on.
I already teased it.
So my Hidden Gem, I quoted
a book that I was reading
that I got that Danny Hillis quote.
If you ever heard of Naval Ravikant,
(39:48):
Naval Ravikant is a
startup, you know, genius.
He's being into business.
There's this book that is essentially
a collection of his writings, his tweets.
Some of his tweets are just genius,
talking about starting a
business, you know, success,
(40:10):
whether it's in family,
relationships, business
partners.
Anyway, I can't speak highly
enough of anyone in business.
They know who Naval Ravikant is.
Anyway, so the book is
called The Almanac of a Revolved
Ravikant, you know, just one little gem.
I'll actually try to
put the link in the--
I'll put the link in the description.
(40:31):
So his quote is, "Become the best in the
world at what you do.
Keep redefining what you
do until this is true."
Become the best in the
world at what you do.
Keep redefining what
you do until this is true.
And I'm not going to
lie, I think about this--
I think about that line,
I don't know, once a week,
(40:51):
figuring out what I'm
meant to create with.
Interesting.
Anyway, that's it, everyone.
Right.
Naval Ravikant.
I hadn't heard of that.
I understand.
So I'm going to check that out.
Yeah.
My hidden gem for this
week is a little-known band
called Rocco and the Beaters.
Are they on London?
(41:12):
They're-- yeah.
Close.
So mine is-- actually, this
is an app that I have used.
I use this on and off when I need to.
But it's an app called Line Learner app.
And it's very handy for actors.
I think at Leslie Kahn--
and we talk about this a lot--
(41:32):
that memorization is
sort of the last thing
you need to worry about when you're
preparing an audition.
But it is in there, because you are
expected to be off book,
even if they say you're not sometimes.
But this app is called Line Learner.
And basically, what it enables
you to do is you can either--
so how I use it is I record
(41:53):
all the lines of a script,
someone else's line, my line.
And you can-- in the app, there are tabs
to switch between characters.
And then when you go to play it back,
you can choose just to
have the other person speak.
And then there's a gap
where your line comes in.
So just to see if I know the lines,
like if I know the script.
(42:14):
And it's handy when you
don't have a ton of time
to rehearse it with other
people, which is ideally,
you should.
But if I'm pushed for time and I'm alone
and I don't really have someone else to
drill it with or to run
it with or to prep it with,
I'll use this app just to see--
just to get myself in the habit of
(42:34):
listening and responding
to get the lines in my head.
So it's been a very-- it's free.
I got to try that.
I never got it as my normal practice.
But yeah, it works,
especially if you just
need the repetition.
All right, that's our show, everyone.
Hope you enjoyed it.
All right, guys.
(42:56):
See you next week.
People who saw themselves in
photos that were unauthorized,
their reaction was
similar to physical pain.
When you see yourself
that's out of your control,
it actually causes pain
that's similar to physical pain.
What are we talking now?
Are we talking like a dead
leg or like a flick in the ear?
(00:21):
I'm hoping on my boundaries.
When I told you that I
saw Hamilton and I was like,
oh, this is what I've been missing.
Things like the Beatles,
maybe I would like the Beatles.
Like I don't know how many there are.
You don't know how
many Beatles there are?
What the fuck?
All right, welcome to the Actors Guide
to the End of the World Podcast
where we talk about
acting in Hollywood and white.
(00:42):
People understand, I'm E-Kan Soong.
And I am Rían Sheehy Kelly.
Follow us wherever you find your podcasts
at Actors Guide Podcasts.
We're on all social media.
We're on YouTube.
We're on Substack.
Make sure you like and subscribe.
It really helps the channel.
On the show for today,
Sore 2 gets called out by none other
than Martin Luther King Jr's estate.
(01:05):
Uh-oh.
And we also talk about
how you can protect yourself
from getting deep faked.
Dive into the past and
talk about child inspirations.
We talk about our favorite music.
And guess what?
She tells me who the Beatles are.
Did not foresee this one.
Didn't foresee this one coming.
I didn't expect to be explaining the
(01:25):
Beatles to you today.
Yeah, if you haven't
heard of them, stick around.
And today's show is brought to you by
tired of looking up
at your romantic lead?
Need a step letter or
kiss your romantic co-star?
Tired of just being
Danny DeVito in "Twins"
and not Arnold Schwarzenegger in "Twins"?
Give yourself a boost with
Hollywood heels in "Soles".
You're gonna go from
Tom Cruise to Terry Crews.
(01:46):
Now in "Crux".
Hi, this is a little
weekend, special weekend.
I'm actually going to Boston.
I'm having a little reunion with friends
and it just dawned on me.
These college friends
are actually the reason why
I even got into
acting in the first place.
(02:07):
Oh yeah.
So I go to college and I
become friends with this guy
who dreamed about being a director.
We became best buddies
and we were just doing shows
for all the clubs in college.
No desires of being an actor.
We were just putting on shows.
What are the clubs in American colleges?
(02:27):
Sorry, just to interrupt.
Like the Asian club?
The Asian club, sounds fun.
You're actually welcome to white people.
There's plenty of white people in there.
You know, they're
gonna join the Asian club?
100%, are you kidding me?
There's like Christian fellowships.
There's like, you
know, Jewish fellowships.
There's all different,
there was like, you know,
(02:48):
free Tibet was a big thing back then.
Yeah, Asian appreciation.
Dude, they welcome everyone.
Anyway, they have the trainees club,
they have the Korean club.
Anyway, so we were putting in shows
for 50, sometimes hundreds of people.
And just coming up with
skits, coming up with sketches.
(03:08):
See, this is the thing.
I didn't even count this as a thing.
It was just something
that we goofed off and did.
And secretly I was like,
oh, I kind of like this.
If I need me and my buddy Danny,
I don't know if this,
any of this would happen.
We eventually drove my car from Jersey,
moved to LA together.
And the cutest thing was
(03:30):
me and him would fight over,
which one of us was
Matt Damon or Ben Affleck.
Spoiler alert, neither of us.
I think we were both spending
over trying to be Matt Damon,
but I think either of
them would have been good.
Anyway, so.
Is that the cooler?
Yeah, I probably would
have thought to be Matt Damon.
Oh, this is the thing.
And that duo.
(03:51):
Ben Affleck changed his kind of brand
when he started directing.
Obviously he won an
Oscar and all that stuff.
So this was before that.
Sometimes you just need a little opening
and then you just go in
and you have that luxury
when you're young.
All these aspirations and
fantasies of being Matt Damon
and Ben Affleck, that's great.
(04:13):
And that lasts for a while.
And then after a while,
all those fantasies are done
and you just have to work your ass off.
And it's mostly very
boring and very grueling.
Yeah.
I know I'm getting decured right now.
Actually, just when
you're talking about college
in free Tibet, there
was a Chinese student
(04:35):
that had been imprisoned
by the Chinese government.
I think his name is,
maybe I'm not gonna
pronounce this right, but Xiaoming.
It's like X-A-O-Ming at the time.
And there was a sign up.
I don't know if it's
Xiaoming or Xiaoming.
But there was a sign up in college
and there was posters
all over for the student
that had been imprisoned.
And I heard a girl walk past it.
This was when I was in college
and I heard a girl walk past, she goes,
(04:56):
"Oh, free Xiaoming, I
wonder what that tastes like."
I'm living.
Shut up, shut up.
I swear to God.
No, that is real, I swear to God.
She thought it was free Chinese food.
So that was Future Leaders of our Country
at UCD in Dublin.
(05:17):
Circa 2003-ish.
See, it was worth it for
me to bring up that story
because of that.
I just, when you said the free Tibet,
I just remembered that story,
but then I couldn't
remember the name of the student.
So it took me a second to think about it.
So yeah, well, I
mean, free Xiaoming, baby.
All right, so Word Around Town,
we've touched on this a little bit,
(05:39):
but Door 2 is an app.
It's one of the latest text to video app.
You put in a prompt,
it comes out with realistic images,
videos of who knows you,
your friends, your loved ones.
And so they got in some
hot water this past month.
Videos of Martin Luther
King were circulating,
(06:00):
unauthorized and disrespectful,
completely inappropriate.
And sure enough, that's
someone that you don't wanna really
mess around with
their image and likeness.
So sure enough, Sword
2 had to remove them.
The fact that Sword 2 and OpenAI
actually does anything
these days is actually,
that's kind of the signal.
(06:22):
So someone else generated this,
someone else put in
like, make a video of...
Exactly, exactly.
So it's no different than--
Why did they remove them
above anyone else's though?
Was it just because of who it was?
Like you could apply
that to anyone's likeness.
I know Martin Luther
King's like a, you know,
like a much revered figure,
but I mean, is this the
(06:44):
same logic applied to anybody
or is it, can you get
anybody removed is what I'm asking.
This is exactly what we're getting into.
The problem is, is when
you're not Martin Luther King
and you're not repped by CAA,
what do us, you know, normal
civilians do in this day and age
when you don't have an estate
(07:05):
and you don't have that kind of leverage?
On that note, CAA
also put out a statement
that slammed open AI, they are outraged,
issued a statement,
serious and harmful risks
to clients intellectual property,
meaning they're very upset
because they're not
going to get paid for it.
So they do not want any of their clients,
(07:28):
they're opting out for
all of their clients.
Side note, CAA is no
dummy, they're very smart
and they're actually
very, very ahead of the game.
Years ago, after the strike, they
launched the CAA Vault,
which is a database of every,
all of their clients digital replicas.
We already have been collecting
(07:50):
their clients digital replicas.
They're ready to work,
they're ready to make money
and unfortunately, none of
us have leverage or power
to be able to do that.
This is not news,
it's all about the money.
We don't, CAA is saying, we don't know
how to monetize this
so we want all of our clients off of it
and everyone else is
talking about the ethical issues
of how do we self-govern this one?
(08:12):
All of our images are
possibly flying around
and possibly being misused.
Yeah, I've just read a quote of it says,
"Think of it like a bank."
CAA is head of strategic development,
Alexandra Shannon says,
"If somebody now owns
their digital likeness assets,
"anyone who chooses to do anything
"other than work with
that individual now,
"there's a stronger case to show
"that they're
infringing on their rights."
(08:34):
It's not so long ago when we were talking
about the California AI
bills and sure enough,
now it's time and now it's relevant
because these bills are
still one of the few things
that are protecting not just actors
but also just normal citizens.
It's like back in the
day, everyone was like,
(08:55):
"Oh, look at you geeks
talking about AI bills."
Well, sure enough.
Yeah, especially to you.
Yeah, exactly, especially to me.
So we have California,
you can pursue civil action
if your name and likeness
signature voice is used.
So these are, I mean, this is a handful
of these things in these states.
(09:16):
It's quite forward
thinking for California.
I don't know how many
states have that bill
but I remember that was one of the first,
I think, in the country, right?
Exactly.
So California is one of them.
It's called the AI Transparency Act,
can pursue civil action.
There's also a
post-mortem right to privacy.
So for people, celebrities,
essentially, after their past,
(09:39):
most states don't have this.
Yeah.
And then famously, Tennessee,
congrats to Tennessee,
they have the Elvis Act.
It protects unauthorized use of lyrics
because obviously they love
music, Elvis, even Colorado.
Perhaps the Colorado,
they have the artificial intelligence act
(09:59):
requiring all consumers
to be aware they're working
with AI, that's it.
That's literally it.
Which is, and I saw that the creator of,
the woman who created
Tilly Norwood, the AI actor,
has said today, I know.
I just saw that.
I just saw that.
That she said that,
oh, it's only designed
to be in a category of AI,
like there's
(10:19):
animation and then there's AI
and it was only, I don't,
it won't threaten actors.
To be honest, I think
not out of intention
but I actually currently
don't think it does threaten
actors because
they're so fucking bad that,
I get really irritated at AI videos.
(10:40):
There's so many of them,
even the likeness things
like the MLK thing,
there's a lot of videos I know,
I noticed how pop up on
social media that are like,
these celebrities talking to,
dead celebrities talking
to each other in heaven.
And it's like this really manipulative,
like blatant attempt
to get clicks and likes
(11:02):
and it's just awful.
It turns me off so
much, I'm like, oh God.
The term AI slop
exists for a reason, right?
If it gets past the cute appeal of,
quick 15 second
little hit of something odd
or interesting or
absurd, that's one thing.
(11:22):
We're going to get
bombarded with all this stuff.
I mean, Sora too is literally an app
that will just feed you this job.
This is the moment where we
see, do we want this stuff?
Do we need this stuff?
And people like you
and me, for that matter,
are just going to get more annoyed.
And this is where they test the market.
On that Tilly Norwood thing, by the way,
(11:43):
she literally just announced.
The crazy thing is I
actually thought that she was
kind of accurate saying
that AI might be a genre
and we'll see who wins in
the market share of attention.
So, I mean, that's fine.
She literally just announced,
she has 40 more AI
actors in the pipeline.
(12:04):
I saw that too.
Brilliant, can't wait to meet them all.
It's just kind of odd how she was kind of
like dealing with backlash and saying,
no, no, no, I'm not sure
I'm playing a sidekick.
Oh, by the way, get set
because I have 40 more,
whatever you call them,
40 synthetic performers
ready to mingle.
(12:24):
Why the waste?
Just unleash them on the world.
So let's talk about
how to protect yourself.
If you're not with CAA,
if you're a normal person,
unfortunately, there's only
so many things you can do.
It's self-govern.
It's in the terms of
Sora too, don't get on it.
(12:46):
Don't let them take your picture.
I mean, that sounds silly,
but it makes a lot of sense.
Back in the day when they had
all these cool little filters
where they put your
face with puppy dog guys
and everyone was just doing it.
Like those, we didn't
realize that they were actually
using all of our data
for whatever reason.
(13:06):
And years later, it's
things like that where I'm like,
I'm not giving them my picture.
I'm not a person for me.
I'm not on Sora too.
Don't need it, don't want it.
You guys can very well have
fun and play around with it,
but I'm not getting on it.
So don't give them your picture.
As far as, like CAA's
case, entertainers are getting
(13:27):
their agents to opt out.
Studios are flagging problematic content,
but that's mostly with IP.
The one thing I will say is each app
actually has a clanging
that you can file for
inappropriate use of your image
and that's it.
So these California AI bills,
(13:48):
thank God we have them in California,
but other than that, good luck.
There's a TikTok claim
that you can fill out.
There's a meta claim.
There's all the apps and that's it.
And you basically
hope that they remove it.
There's no monetary penalty.
(14:08):
This is not like copywriting fridgement.
This is, hey, oh, sorry, our bad.
So Martin Luther King's estate.
Yeah, we'll just take that down.
Yeah, we're good.
There's no financial consequence.
That's the difference.
Which is usually the
only thing that has teeth
because I mean, that's ultimately what
companies care about
(14:29):
is their bottom line.
Exactly.
And so all these forward thinker, forward
thinking politicians
who want to rub elbows
with Silicon tech companies,
they don't want to push those things
because it hurts their money
and it hurts their logging.
So I actually just
stumbled across this gem.
This is literally a gem.
I thought it was so brilliant.
Is it hidden?
(14:50):
This is a tease.
The book that I read it from
is going to be my hidden gem.
Danny Hillis is an
inventor and entrepreneur.
He was quoted, "Technology is everything
that doesn't work yet."
Explain that to me.
I know exactly.
Because it took me a while
to wrap my head around it.
That's why there's so
much wealth and money
(15:12):
and innovation and opportunity.
Because it's something
that doesn't work yet.
There was a lot of people who think
people might want this
and make a lot of money off of it.
It doesn't work yet,
but they're going to try to
get in the people's hands.
Now, the question is, is obviously,
do people even want what
AI is going to provide?
But the example is,
(15:33):
technology doesn't work yet.
AI for sure doesn't work yet.
There's so many things
that we have to figure out,
regulations, all that stuff.
Rockefeller, oil was a technology.
He made a lot of money when oil was new.
Now it's just like, oh,
yeah, this is how it works.
This is how it always works.
People are-- sure, there might be some
(15:53):
people making money,
but that's not innovation anymore.
Henry Ford, technology was the car.
Like, the car business right
now, that's not innovation.
That's something that we're
already been there, done that.
Right.
It's still technology, though.
This is what he looks at as technology.
And what is innovation?
(16:14):
And most, in this case,
is where the money is.
Now, you're very well right.
We can applaud the fact
that a Ford car runs well.
It takes us from A to B. But as far as--
Every time I see a Ford
car, I give a little clap
on the side of the road, as well.
Exactly, exactly.
You're the only one.
No one else.
(16:34):
I just--
My point is, it's kind of soldering in,
and it kind of makes a lot
of sense, the fact that, hey,
guys, this doesn't work yet.
It's going to make-- people are going to
make a lot of money.
And some things are going to break.
And we need to get proper regulation.
It's a little different
than with the internet rules.
When the internet happened, we had
internet regulations.
(16:55):
We have copyright infringement.
We have all those rules set in place.
That's true.
Remember dial-up?
Remember the noise the dial-up made?
Remember the cost of dial-up?
Exactly.
Now we take internet for granted.
Do I think of internet
as innovation right now?
No.
(17:15):
We're bitching about
how slow our speeds are.
This is true.
How quickly we accept things.
Exactly, exactly.
Yeah.
Well, let me just finish this thought.
Society always wants
new things, and that's
why there's so much money in it.
And once something works,
it's no longer technology.
That's according to him.
(17:35):
So anyway, we're swimming around.
We're trying to get
proper regulations on this.
And needless to say, it's
pretty clear it doesn't work yet.
Because AI is just the
latest version of that.
But remember when CGI
actors were a thing?
Like maybe five years ago.
That was like--
Oh, were you doing Marvel movies?
No, just the idea of a
(17:56):
completely digital actor.
Yeah, and this is what I mean.
When the technology became good enough
that they could bring
people who had died dead,
celebrities and stuff,
sort of back to life.
Oh, holograms.
Yeah, the holograms,
they had the technology
to make it look somewhat plausible.
(18:17):
That was a big deal.
That didn't really take off either,
really in the same way.
I mean, I know there's like--
I think it's still
really relevant, actually.
I just think this is the
latest iteration of that debate.
It's the latest version of it.
Because AI has the
power-- the technology of AI
has the power to sort of create it
(18:38):
without a ton of human input.
Yeah, I'm trying to
remember the other bands that--
I mean, to be honest, you wouldn't
know this better than me, Abba.
Abba is what?
European or something?
Why would I know Abba better than you?
Why-- how old do you think I am?
Aren't they European? Aren't they European or something?
They're Swedish.
Yes.
OK, OK, there you go.
There you go.
See?
(18:58):
You know?
There you go.
You knew that.
Huge in the 70s when
I wasn't alive, Econ.
Oh, and I didn't realize they're old.
What?
Shut up.
No, no, seriously, I
thought Abba would be just as old
as the Beatles or something.
No, the Beatles were in the 60s.
Abba were in the 70s.
Totally different kind of music.
I was actually younger.
I was actually younger than the Beatles.
(19:20):
Yes.
Oh, well, so they're not that old.
Have you seen how old the Beatles are?
No.
The remaining Beatles?
I don't actually-- I
actually don't know much about them
at all.
That's actually another conversation,
considering how I'm
trying to open up my--
Well, let's dig into this.
I'm opening up my
boundaries when I told you
I saw Hamilton, and I was like, oh, this
(19:42):
is what I've been missing.
Things like the
Beatles, it's like white noise.
I didn't even know--
maybe I would like the Beatles.
I have no idea of--
I don't know how many there are.
You don't know how
many Beatles there are?
No, like Rocco.
Rocco, John Lennon.
(20:02):
I know John Lennon.
This is a blind spot that I
didn't know existed in Europe.
This is what I'm saying.
This is all part about
the cultural imbedderment.
I'm open-minded now, where
there could be a whole world out
there that people have always loved,
that it just never was a thing.
(20:22):
It actually never was a thing.
Yeah, well, Rocco is probably the most
famous of all the Beatles.
There's no Rocco.
You're thinking of Ringo Starr.
Oh, that's it.
That's it.
Well, this is all right.
Well, let's talk about this for a second,
because I'm so
fascinated with this topic.
Don't you guys care
(20:42):
about the Beatles over there?
I mean, the Beatles were massive.
They were the biggest band
in the world at the time.
Look, I'm not a huge
Beatles fan, to be honest,
but I respect their place
in music and what they did
and how they transformed music at the
time, which is not--
I used to get shit for that when I'd say
it wasn't a big Beatles fan.
But I think it's my parents
were not huge Beatles fans.
(21:03):
They were bigger.
If you got shit for that, just imagine
the shit I'm going to get.
Yeah, the fact that I
didn't know Rocco was Ringo.
You're right there talking about Rocco.
Well, let me-- so it's Paul McCartney,
John Lennon, George Harrison,
and Ringo Starr.
Those are the Beatles.
So now you know.
So there's four.
(21:24):
Yeah, because there was always the talk
of the fifth Beatle.
I met Ringo Starr, actually.
I met Ringo Starr a couple of times here.
And then I came a little fist bump.
A fist bump?
Really?
A fist bump?
He didn't want to shake hands.
No, he's very-- he's quite old now.
He's in his hands.
OK.
(21:44):
But he was going on
tour with his new band.
So this is our music.
We're going to have a
music spin-off podcast.
So just see, wait,
Actors Guy in the music.
But this is actually-- let's
dig into this for a second.
That's great.
I love this.
I've been going to the--
we didn't have time to
talk about this last time
when I saw my Hamilton.
Well, let's talk about music then.
How much are you influenced by music?
(22:05):
Are you a big music fan?
I don't actually know this.
You're going to love this.
This is the perfect
time to tell you this,
because it's a hard take.
It's a hard take.
I grew up with music, but I
was playing classical piano.
My mom loved it.
I was forced to play it.
And eventually, I
became pretty good at it.
I learned to appreciate music later on.
(22:29):
I had absolutely no artistry.
Acting at a young age
would have helped me a lot.
But I was a robot.
I played technically.
There was no spiritual.
There was no emotion.
There was no heart behind any of it.
That's kind of how I always looked at it.
Classical music, I have a fondness for.
Everything else is kind of like white
(22:49):
noise for the most part.
So my hot take is a piano
has 100-some strings, right?
And it's so impressive.
There's so many strings.
I look at a guitar that
has like four or five.
Six.
Oh, there you go.
And I think it's just a stupid piano.
(23:11):
I look at a guitar, and I
just think it's a stupid piano.
And I know that's kind of disrespectful,
but this is coming
from someone who grew up
playing classical music.
So bridging off of that, there's a
handful of musicians
and artists that I obsessed over.
I'm talking about--
(23:31):
I listened to it.
I'll get obsessed about a musician.
Music isn't so not a part of my life.
And so I didn't grow up with musicals.
So in Hamilton and things like that,
there's just something
about the songs and whatever,
whether it's the
story and all that stuff.
It actually really did move
(23:51):
me, where I'm like, oh my god.
It was first ever musical where I was
really, really into it.
A lot of times, it's
like, oh, yeah, this is good,
but it's not for me.
I have a handful of things
that I really appreciate,
and I'm just obsessed.
And I listen to them eight, nine hours a
day when I'm working.
But it's a small hand.
Mostly classical?
(24:12):
No, actually, in all honesty, classical
is almost too intense.
Classical music is
actually too distracting
to have on the background.
I'll throw it on with
family for road trips.
But classical music is
really, really distracting.
It's too intense for me, actually.
(24:33):
This is fascinating.
So what would be--
I never really talked about this.
Give me an example of
a genre or something
that you would listen
to in the background.
When you're--
You know, there's a lot of-- on YouTube,
there's a lot of lo-fi playlists.
Basically, lo-fi is just good.
There's kind of a beat,
but it's kind of repetitive.
So that's not really music
(24:53):
I would choose to listen to.
It's just focus music.
So you want to know who this is.
Mac Miller.
Mac Miller is a--
OK, so you know.
He's that big.
I didn't appreciate Mac
Miller until a couple of years
after he passed.
Of course, rest in peace.
He passed from an overdose.
(25:17):
I didn't realize who he
was for all of his career.
How talented.
I didn't listen to a song.
He was all-- you know,
he had a TV show on MTV.
He was the most fun.
You know, obviously, he had his issues.
But he was the most fun,
soulful, creative artist.
I didn't even encounter his
(25:39):
music until after he passed.
I obsessed over his entire
album, all of his albums.
Right?
He passed, I believe, when he was 28.
I listened to all of them.
I still listen to all of them repeatedly.
I watched every
documentary, the one person
I've been listening to
for the past two years.
(25:59):
I know this is crazy.
So interesting to me.
I mean, I'm excited
for you because there's
a whole world of music out
there for you to just go over.
And you don't get bored.
I never, never.
Spotify will suggest things to you.
No, no, no, no.
I think Taylor Swift was
probably huge for seven,
eight years.
And I might have heard--
(26:19):
Well, I think she was a hard--
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
But what I'm saying is she was probably
famous for 10 years, but
seven, eight years into it,
I think I only heard one song.
And obviously, now I probably heard two.
How do you-- well, so for
example, for those of you
who don't know, Ikan does
a lot of the heavy lifting
of the technical side of this podcast,
(26:40):
including social media.
But you always pick music for the--
It's so funny you say that.
I despised the music selection on
Instagram and social media.
I love it.
I think it's--
I cannot--
I kind of understand that.
Yeah, yeah.
I cannot choose all the trending music
(27:00):
that is very current
and new.
I hate it.
Hate it.
Hate it.
Can't use it.
Can't use it.
This does explain some
of your music choices.
Yeah, this does explain some of your
music, which are not bad,
by the way.
They fit in a certain category.
This is where I would need your help.
There's a reason why I use the same
Wu-Tang instrumental
on every story, because I
don't have the bandwidth
(27:21):
to choose another song.
And if you actually--
I'm completely outing myself.
If you actually see most of my stories,
I'm usually using a Mac Miller song.
And that's literally how limited--
Mind blown.
OK, that's so interesting.
Yeah, I literally
have no library in here.
(27:42):
And I can't find anything.
So if you have suggestions, email us
at ActorsGuide Podcast at gmail.com.
And I'll throw out a second
mention for Childish Gambino.
Mac Miller and
Childish Gambino, that's it.
Childish Gambino, also known as--
Donald Glover.
There you go.
Very talented actor writer.
(28:03):
So there you go, man.
Yeah, you're knocking a wraparound down.
But it's interesting to
me that you are obviously
very interested in film,
but your musical tastes
are very specific.
Yeah, oh, I see what you're saying.
Actually, this is the perfect timing.
This is a great reminder.
This is the time of
year for SAG screenings.
So if you're in SAG, go get it.
(28:26):
This is the time of year I
try to watch a lot of movies
that I usually wouldn't see.
I actually think, since you mentioned it,
I actually think my film
and TV tastes are actually
fairly limited, very
similarly to my music tastes.
So in a way, I am actively trying
(28:50):
to listen and watch
more different things.
I think I need to see more things.
I actually think I need to
see more different TV shows.
On this note about the
musical aspects of film,
I was fortunate to have,
if I had any art in my life,
it was growing up with
a musical background.
But also, that is part of the
(29:12):
attraction where film and TV
is moving pictures.
And then you get to add
sound as well as dialogue.
And my mind is just blown.
It's one thing that people could be
obsessed about, 2D painting.
And you could love
painting and all that stuff.
And it's great.
But I was like, oh,
when I started editing,
and I could play around
with color correction,
(29:33):
or if you start editing and you start
crafting these things,
but also you can add music, and then you
have a visual element.
And then if you're acting as
well in it, my mind is blown.
So I think you and I are
similar in the world of,
there's so much out there.
And we could absorb a lot
of it and enjoy a lot of it.
You know what I mean?
(29:53):
Yeah.
I used to make--
when I was in primary school, I would
make these videos with
my friend Leo Crowley.
Stop motion.
Yeah.
So Leo is now-- he's a really talented
artist and animator.
We would make stop motion videos with
whatever toys we had around.
I would make-- we had a
camcorder in the house.
(30:14):
So I would make videos.
I would coerce my sister
into making these short films.
I did one where I got her to slide down
the stairs on an inflatable dinghy
that we had.
But I did it from--
the first shot was black, and then the
wardrobe doors opened from the inside.
(30:35):
And she was taking out the thing, and I
cut it together and whatever.
Another thing I discovered
was if you stopped the camera
and got someone out of the frame and then
started recording again,
they would just disappear in an instant.
So we did another little
short film where she was a witch,
where she had the ability to make herself
disappear and reappear.
Particularly in film, like film and TV,
music and film and TV
(30:56):
are kind of synonymous.
They really go-- one doesn't-- film and
TV doesn't really work without music,
either.
That's a huge part of it.
Some TV shows, like Sopranos--
I can't remember the term for this--
but they only use music that's in the
(31:19):
environment of the show.
They don't use--
Like a radio playing--
They're radio playing--
Exactly.
For the most part, I think.
I think there might be one or two
exceptions in the show.
But they were sort of famous for using
that style of music that's
only in the environment of the show,
which I thought was brilliant and so
effective, because I think
sometimes music can be used--
(31:41):
like overused in the sense that it is
designed to provoke an emotional
response from you, and it can feel a bit
manipulative at times.
And sometimes I want to be manipulated.
You know what I mean?
Sometimes I want the sad
music over the sad scene.
But when it's jarring or
incongruous with what's happening,
(32:02):
or it's too obvious, I
think it's very ineffective.
It's like the way Roger Deakins talks
about cinematography.
If you notice the cinematography, I
haven't done my job.
Because I don't think--
then the music should
feel, I think, like part of it.
But--
You're spot on.
It's the same thing with directing.
You don't want to feel the directing.
You don't want to feel the music.
You don't want to
feel the cinematography.
Yeah, you're completely right.
(32:23):
But I love when I just
get lost in something,
and I don't think about that stuff.
And at the end, I go, Jesus,
that was fucking brilliant.
Yeah.
But the music thing is interesting.
Because I think one
of the-- so the first--
there was a couple of movies
that had a huge effect on me
as a kid.
And one of them, I think
probably the most obvious--
the three Star Wars movies--
I remember I was sick one day.
(32:43):
My dad rented all three of them.
And we watched all three in the one day.
That was a huge--
[INAUDIBLE]
But the other movie that
had a massive effect to me
was the movie Labyrinth with
David Bowie, Jim Henson movie.
I was obsessed with all
of the Jim Henson world
when I was a kid.
I loved puppets.
(33:03):
And I was really into that.
And so this was a film
that has puppets and all
of these Jim Henson
creatures and David Bowie, who
was so fucking cool in that movie,
I couldn't even get my head around it.
A lot of people-- and I've talked to
people about this movie--
a lot in adulthood.
(33:24):
And some people found it really scary.
I found it so immersive and cool.
And I loved the idea of fantasy.
But there was a load of
songs in it, which I also loved.
And that kind of opened my
eyes to what a story could be
and what a film could be
and what fantasy could be.
And it just expanded
(33:45):
my imagination, I think,
in a very profound way as a kid.
And then it led me to
films like The Dark Crystal,
like another Jim Henson
movie with all these creatures.
But music was a big part of that,
and particularly with
Labyrinth, because music
was a big part of that movie.
And I think it just
gave me an appreciation
for how the two go together.
(34:06):
Through that, I became
really fascinated by David Bowie
just as a human being and
an artist and a creator.
Because it always seemed to me like this
was a guy that had to just
create to just stay alive,
to just keep breathing.
Because I went to--
there was a David Bowie exhibit in
Chicago a number of years
(34:27):
ago.
Oh, sorry.
This changed my life.
I went to an exhibition called Muppets,
Monsters, and Magic,
which was a traveling Jim
Henson exhibition, which
came to town.
Oh, hello.
That's cool.
And I got to see all these
things, and it blew my mind.
And then years later,
when I was living in Chicago,
I went to this David
Bowie exhibition in Chicago.
(34:50):
And it was incredible
that this guy turned his hand
to not only a musician,
but he designed clothing.
He wrote poetry.
He made films.
He did so many different
things and a great lesson
in, I think for
anybody, any creative person,
in just doing it and not
really giving a fuck what
(35:11):
anybody thought of it.
No, he may have.
I don't know.
The way he created suggested that there
was a wonderful feeling of
him just doing it for him,
just because he wanted to create.
He had to keep creating.
And I think that's a great
lesson for any actor or director
or any artist of any kind
to just keep creating stuff.
(35:34):
Dude, that's spot on.
I mean, if anything, that's a
beautiful way to explain it.
And that's exactly how
I feel about Mac Miller.
So David Bowie and Mac Miller.
He was away from his mic.
For anyone who could see this on YouTube,
show him tell time.
I can see that there.
So this is a print of David Bowie.
(35:57):
It's a framed print I have.
So I got this from a photographer
who had an archive of
images that he bought.
I think he came across
this archive of images.
So this archive of images, I think
he bought them sight unseen.
So he didn't know what was in them.
There was millions, I think
literally millions of images
in this digital archive.
(36:18):
And what he discovered when
he started going through it
was there were all of
these gems of like--
lots of different-- not just at Bowie.
Like, Bowie's just one of them.
But there's a million
different pictures of artists
taken by the original photographers.
And they still had-- they were slides.
You know, the old slides.
(36:39):
And they still had the
photographers writing--
the original writing from the
photographers on the slides
explaining what they wear.
And the company-- that one says London
Features International.
So he-- I think he sells
these prints of these things
for a fair amount of money.
(37:00):
But he just gave that one to
me because I was a Bowie fan.
And so was he.
And so was--
That's awesome.
The last thing before we wrap up here,
this whole thing with the AI likenesses,
it's easy for everyone to
be like, oh, yeah, of course.
You guys are actors.
You're so obsessed with
your likeness, your images.
I want to drop this on
(37:20):
you because I wasn't sure
if you ever heard of this.
There was a study--
a psychologist was explaining how
people who saw themselves in
photos that were unauthorized,
the reaction
emotionally and psychologically
was similar to physical pain.
(37:41):
This is across the
board as a human being.
If you see a photo,
say like on social media,
you post a group photo of your friends.
Maybe you didn't ask them, hey, can I
post this photo, blah, blah, blah.
This sounds like it's about vanity.
It's actually not.
There's a chemical response
that when you see yourself when
(38:02):
you're not--
that's out of your
control, or you see yourself
in a light that's out of your control,
it actually causes a pain
that's similar to physical pain.
What are we talking about?
Are we talking like a dead
leg or like a flick in the ear?
This is from a psychologist.
"The distress people feel is
(38:22):
in vanity about looking bad.
It's a genuine psychological response
to losing control over how they're
represented to the world."
So it's easy for us to
talk about as actors.
Oh, yeah, this is this.
Protect our right, blah, blah, blah.
This goes beyond just a bunch of actors
trying to get $0.10
for using our likeness.
This is about privacy in
(38:45):
the world where everyone
is videoing, recording, nonstop.
And it brings up a great point.
For us actors, sure, we're used to
getting our pictures taken,
but this goes worldwide, and
everyone's on social media.
So how are we going to protect ourselves?
What if we look good
in the picture, though?
Does that change the response?
I don't know.
Or if you're like, how dare
(39:06):
you take that fantastic picture
of me from that angle in that lighting?
You know, the irony is I'm
begging people to take my photo.
But that being said, normal people--
Yeah, you really are.
Well, going back to it, just imagine
Martin Luther King's
estate.
Just imagine how they feel.
There you go.
That's why we're trying to get
(39:27):
regulations here, everyone.
All right, let's go to
Hidden Gems real quick.
Let me drop them on.
I already teased it.
So my Hidden Gem, I quoted
a book that I was reading
that I got that Danny Hillis quote.
If you ever heard of Naval Ravikant,
(39:48):
Naval Ravikant is a
startup, you know, genius.
He's being into business.
There's this book that is essentially
a collection of his writings, his tweets.
Some of his tweets are just genius,
talking about starting a
business, you know, success,
(40:10):
whether it's in family,
relationships, business
partners.
Anyway, I can't speak highly
enough of anyone in business.
They know who Naval Ravikant is.
Anyway, so the book is
called The Almanac of a Revolved
Ravikant, you know, just one little gem.
I'll actually try to
put the link in the--
I'll put the link in the description.
(40:31):
So his quote is, "Become the best in the
world at what you do.
Keep redefining what you
do until this is true."
Become the best in the
world at what you do.
Keep redefining what
you do until this is true.
And I'm not going to
lie, I think about this--
I think about that line,
I don't know, once a week,
(40:51):
figuring out what I'm
meant to create with.
Interesting.
Anyway, that's it, everyone.
Right.
Naval Ravikant.
I hadn't heard of that.
I understand.
So I'm going to check that out.
Yeah.
My hidden gem for this
week is a little-known band
called Rocco and the Beaters.
Are they on London?
(41:12):
They're-- yeah.
Close.
So mine is-- actually, this
is an app that I have used.
I use this on and off when I need to.
But it's an app called Line Learner app.
And it's very handy for actors.
I think at Leslie Kahn--
and we talk about this a lot--
(41:32):
that memorization is
sort of the last thing
you need to worry about when you're
preparing an audition.
But it is in there, because you are
expected to be off book,
even if they say you're not sometimes.
But this app is called Line Learner.
And basically, what it enables
you to do is you can either--
so how I use it is I record
(41:53):
all the lines of a script,
someone else's line, my line.
And you can-- in the app, there are tabs
to switch between characters.
And then when you go to play it back,
you can choose just to
have the other person speak.
And then there's a gap
where your line comes in.
So just to see if I know the lines,
like if I know the script.
(42:14):
And it's handy when you
don't have a ton of time
to rehearse it with other
people, which is ideally,
you should.
But if I'm pushed for time and I'm alone
and I don't really have someone else to
drill it with or to run
it with or to prep it with,
I'll use this app just to see--
just to get myself in the habit of
(42:34):
listening and responding
to get the lines in my head.
So it's been a very-- it's free.
I got to try that.
I never got it as my normal practice.
But yeah, it works,
especially if you just
need the repetition.
All right, that's our show, everyone.
Hope you enjoyed it.
All right, guys.
(42:56):
See you next week.
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