Writer-Producer Patrick Massett talks Taking Risks, Tomb Raider, and Hanging with Val Kilmer | Ep 37 - The Actor’s Guide to the End of the World

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to the actor's guide to
the underworld podcast where we talk
about acting in Hollywood
in a way people understand
I'm E-Kan Soong and this is my co-host
Rían Sheehy Kelly what's happening as always follow
us wherever you find your podcast at
actors guide podcast
Where you have video on YouTube on sub
stack and follow us on all social media
at actress guide podcast
So we have another

(00:21):
special guest Patrick Massett
Look at his IMDB showrunner producer. He
worked on Friday Night Lights
Blacklist co-wrote the video game hit
adaptation Lara Croft
Tomb Raider. The list goes on
We know that there's going to be a part
two. He's got a ton of great Hollywood
stories start out as an actor

(00:43):
so we talked about that transition from
acting to writing what it was like to
Sell that first big hit
which was Lara Croft Tomb Raider
behind the scenes on the doors with Val
Kilmer we also talk about the
Transition that entertainment and
Hollywood is making into
the new digital age with AI
What he's seen with AI in the

(01:05):
entertainment industry and why he's not
worried about it yet
Patrick is also a good friend of mine and
I've known him for a number of years
I'm thrilled to be to be talking to him
and digging a little deeper into into his
career into his approach to
Writing and and just his approach to
life. So alright guys sit back and relax
Enjoy this episode and on with the show

(01:27):
master of the universe kind of name. It's
like a Marvel name, you know, it's like
There's a lot of people say I think it's
my DJ name. What where
did you how did you end up?
I mean, is that a family
name or so? It's my Chinese name
my
Parents are immigrants from China
My sister's name is Iana with the e-in
front. My name is the e-kin

(01:49):
They just kind of made it up because
basically they were like, oh, well these
Chinese names are too.
They're just too weird
Let's make it more English sounding so
English speakers could say it
So they this is literally not even real
Chinese e-kin and they're
just oh, yeah, it's close enough
I was so stubborn bees
They tried to give me an English name
growing up and I was like,

(02:10):
why are you calling me that?
My name's econ and it stuck with me my
entire life and I'm so glad I
did and my sister name stuck
My sister stuck with her name too. And
the irony is is my
parents name are Linda and Tony
Yeah
Anyway, so yeah, we're off to the races

(02:31):
here. Let's get into this. So Patrick,
thank you so much for coming on the show
Yeah, I I've heard so much about you
through reen already
So I already have tons of questions and
I'm sure reen has tons but
let's I guess let's just get from
Starting in the beginning. Um, we're
gonna talk about all the shows and the
films that you worked on

(02:52):
One of them is one of my all-time
favorites Friday Night Lights
Let's start even further back to
Nebraska. Let's start in Nebraska. That's
what I want to know about ways that
Patrick is that where you're from? I'm
from originally from Nebraska. Yeah, and
my dad was a kind of a wild man
You know, I spent a lot of time in bars
and with you know, you know

(03:13):
Irreputable women and
he but he loved movies
So, you know when he and I
didn't spend much time with him
But I always wanted to do something like
that. He loved so I sort of just
gravitated towards
writing and film and you know
kind of kind of beat
for him in a weird way and
You know, I also played football so that

(03:33):
that helped but really the first thing I
ever did I think was Tomb Raider
But it was like it was such a different
world than I was telling reen about that
It's like the world we're in now and like
just from 20 years ago
The industry has changed so incredibly
and just the attitude it's more about how
people think about business
and not just how they execute it
you know, like when we

(03:54):
were making that it was like
You know John and I had had basically had
only written one thing they loved it
so they brought us in they said what do
you want to do next and
you know, there's this
giant cutout of Lara Croft and
We're like we want to do Tomb Raider and
it's like that. That's the
greatest big giant video game
They're like no, you can't do that. We're
gonna get like a
five-star a list, you know

(04:15):
You know writer writer teams whatever so
we said well fuck you we
went home and we called him back
We came up with the pitch the next day
and we called him back
We had agents called see, you know, tell
them that we're gonna write the script
and if they don't if they don't hear our
at least hear our pitch then
You know, we're just gonna write it.
They're got to pay
triple for it. We're like and

(04:37):
Where did you get the balls to like
I'm trying to make because everybody in
the story had giant balls and that's how
you got movies made back then and
People have like are trying to mitigate
risk and you can't do that
in this business, you know
So we went back we pitched it
You know
We got we got to the meeting and nobody

(04:57):
showed up for like two hours and finally
they roll in and pitch it
And we were driving off
the Warner Brothers lot
we get a call from our agent and said,
you know, Stephen said
the director said that
He saw he loved that he
loved it. He saw the whole movie
He wished he would have had a bag of
popcorn and we were off for the races
We went and pitched it to Paramount. They
bought it. We went to London where they
said now here's more here's another thing

(05:19):
they're banking on us right these two
guys that had written
one movie for them and
They sent us to London and
we've got two weeks to fulfill a
Contract to present a script to Eidos the
video game company or they're gonna have
to pay six more six million dollars more
On top of what they've already paid but
here's here's that risk again. They're

(05:39):
just fucking going for it
Why not but they're like you guys are
gonna be we're gonna
set you guys up at a hotel
We were right in 24 7, you know, in fact
one night we're playing music really loud
It's like 2 o'clock in the morning and
both of both of us are hammering out
scenes and all sudden, you know
We hear like fire a fire truck outside
So we open up the balcony windows were
like on the third floor and there's a

(06:00):
ladder coming up to our window
Because we had headphones on we were
riding and we were smoking and they
thought that our room was on fire
That's how much you were
smoking that's a much you
Back then and then like they would show
up with like tons of cash, you know, like
every day the producer
would show up with 300 pounds
Here's your per diem, but
keep writing we would go to that

(06:20):
We would go to the bar at night and order
200, you know, 200
year old bottles of port
They were bringing it out and they're
breaking the dirt. I think Napoleonic era
port knowing that if
The movie worked they wouldn't care and
if it didn't work, we were getting fired
anyway, so let's fucking go for it
So finally get a call from business
affairs and they're like, you know, we
don't want to bother you guys
We know you're on this crazy deadline,

(06:41):
but you know, who's ordering the port?
Because they were getting
In my for this old old wine. Anyway, we
made the deadline the movie got the movie
got made we got Angelina
That was a whole nother thing
But every jolly is not familiar with the
movie the movie goes on to be

(07:01):
You know the most successful video game
adaptation in history up until Super
Mario and it's it made a
couple of billion dollars
But these guys were willing to throw
millions and millions and millions at it
at the beginning in order to make
You know order to make this one show
there was a time when I could go into
You know anybody could go into a network
or studio and pitch a show and
they would buy it in the room

(07:22):
They're writing a check for you as you're
leaving now. It's impossible. That's how
it got done back then a lot of a
lot of buying a lot of
production a lot of risk and now
It's people are just like they think they
can buy one or two things and get one or
two hits out of that and it just
Doesn't work like that. Plus there's the
whole screaming problem now, which is
we're definitely
going to talk a lot about

(07:43):
This because I love hearing these
first-hand stories about the Hollywood
that we that reen and I dream of
because I
Want to hear all these old stories
because I feel like there's there's in
this new era of entertainment
There's so many people
pining for what it used to be and also it

(08:05):
just so happens that you
have seen these decades of
The transition and also you're still
working so you've seen it what it was
like before and you actually see it
What it's like now and you're still
working and you're still successful. So
and and for the audience
Lara Croft Tomb Raider
2001 Angelina Jolie obviously you

(08:26):
co-wrote that with John Zim in I believe
is that your longtime
collaborator partner
This is so early in the game as far as
Video game adaptations, right people are
still trying to chase the
video game blockbuster now
Yeah, some have hit some
haven't some some have missed
But Lara Croft is is almost like the the
gemstone of what people are trying to get
for a video game adaptation

(08:47):
And then that's also a lot earlier before
the whole video game boom. So let's just
kind of go back into a
Nebraska yeah, I want to I want to start
I want to start even yeah like
No, no not at all, but I just I'd love to
know like when did you

(09:07):
When did you think that? Oh being a
writer could be a viable career being a
screenwriter could be a
viable career because that's not
That's not a thought that occurs to you
know, a lot of people I would guess
Also also in general the arts
How did you even gravitate to that be
just because growing up enjoying movies
and then your
relationship with your father?
Like how did it all kind of start it

(09:27):
started from very like the only the it's
kind of it's really weird
But from a very young age, I like to
write poems. I loved
reading the lyrics on the
We used to get like albums and inside the
sleeves were the lyrics and I loved
reading lyrics of music and
my dad
Was always pat he was a
riadite for being like crazy redneck

(09:49):
but he loved to read and he kind of
passed out on along to me and I don't
know man, it's just like I just
I never felt like it was a good business
model. I never felt like oh,
this is a great career move
I'm gonna go right and get into Hollywood
because I feel like it's
It's a great way to make a living and
make money and be successful. It was more
like it was just a passion

(10:09):
I just really wanted to pursue. I was so
curious about the business and the
industry landed in LA
Without knowing anybody and having any
contacts zero. I mean
Actually, there was one his name was Val
Kilmer who I had done a play with in
Colorado and we had become
What you did a you did a play with with

(10:30):
Val Kilmer in Colorado
and a movie two movies Wow
and
Before you got to LA before it. No after
Before you tell I did a play
with him and when I got here
I asked him for some help and he
submitted a script for me
It didn't go anywhere, but he tried but
then he and I ended up doing Gore Vidal's
Billy the kid for for team
See and then we ended up doing

(10:50):
Thunderheart together, which I did some
writing on and some acting
And then I want to get into your acting
career as well. I know exactly
Around helping him with
the dialogue on on the doors
Which was really a lot of oh, wow
Incredible. So anyway, we'd answer your
question. I wasn't you

(11:11):
know, it wasn't a business thing
It was just my heart my passion a lot of
ignorance a lot of like naiveté
I would say more than ignorance but just
I just wanted to do something that I
With the moment that I there are two
moments in me for film that
I love that I thought okay
I have to do movies
and one was easy rider
My dad took it took me
to it when I was like 10
I was like wow

(11:31):
That was just a weird trippy movie that I
thought was a really and
the other one was Star Wars
because I was 14 years old or something
when the original Star
Wars came out and when that
When this opened with this giant scroll
and then the space cruiser comes over the
top of my head. I was just so
Blown away by the magic of that and also
growing up in Nebraska
was hard man. It was tough

(11:52):
We did not have a lot if we
were farmers and it was hard
Slogging and it just seemed like that is
being able to escape into those other
worlds just seemed like a way of
Just a better a better way of living, you
know, just to get it to
get out of my own head
Yeah, absolutely
Yeah, and I think we can both relate to
that naiveté and they're like because I

(12:13):
moved to LA with no I moved to America
Would know I didn't know it. I knew one
person and my buddy Kevin
I didn't I didn't have any clue what LA
was like what the business was like what?
America was like so, you know
I can certainly relate to that just
landing here and go and what is this
place because it's wild, you know
and and obviously you made a massive
success out of it and that's

(12:35):
That's a that's a kind of a rare. That's
a rare story, you
know, I get really lucky
You know, I was at a bar one night a guy
hands me and guy was telling me he was
just he was a screenwriter
He goes oh you got to listen to these
tapes and like he you know
This is free cell phone. So I gotta sell
I called him on a payphone the next day
So I didn't have a phone and he said
yeah, come over to my house and I'll give

(12:56):
you these tapes and
they were the Robert McKee
tapes, you know live
lecture on on the story
Book called story and it was that live
lecture and that was like that's how I
learned structure and then from there
I picked up two other books then I wrote
two screenplays and I got
an agent from that, you know
So it was just like it was all this like
self-generated sort of bouncing around

(13:17):
following my instincts kind of thing
Yeah, and now and then I
wrote my first my first
Script that I sold I happened to share it
with John Zinneman who was at a theater
company that I had seen and he gave me
some notes and I sold it and
You know at the time I was
My wife Mary and we had three kids and I

(13:38):
was completely broke and
paid her rent three months
I had a crazy landlord who was
threatening to chop down
our door with a chainsaw
Telling us we had to get get over this
movie habit bullshit and get a real job
And have you no
no, and then uh
And then I I sold this movie to MGM it

(13:58):
paid all of our bills. It got us to zero
Basically, it's got a factor where we
could begin to like breathe a little bit
And then she after that I met John and we
and then we did Tomb
Raider pretty quickly after that
Amazing that's amazing. Uh, one thing
that I I agree and I think
that's gonna be a theme here
Much like reian. I I moved out to LA with
no connections. No,

(14:19):
nothing. This is before
You know smartphones and that just having
gook like, you know, we're using those
um, those big thomas guides. Yeah
I know a little snippet in how far back
that was but it's like I I
just want to like just reiterate
This is what taking risks were like

(14:41):
And we weren't even I wasn't
even taking the biggest risk
But it's like when we like when we say
these stories, that's what I I I miss
when
today
Everything and any information is online
and when people take risks, they're
scared of making that social media post
Yeah, do you know I just feel like

(15:02):
there's a difference between
Like what risks are today and I feel like
there's we're kind of losing that
excitement and that
that that that uh danger
Well, that's a really that's a really
good point. Yeah, this this guy behind me
here in this picture
Isn't a mate. This is this photograph is
so amazing because it's mick jagger
watching himself
um on um

(15:23):
Can you see that it's mick jagger? Yeah,
yeah, you know laying on bed watching
himself on the ed selvan show
That he read if he read his biography
He was going to the
london school of economics
And he still hadn't decided if he was
going to do this musical
Bullshit or if he was going to go to the
London school and finish and become a
great accountant because he was so smart

(15:44):
And so he's like again, it's
like he took that risk, you know
He said he took that he made that leap
pulled away from his
parents and this future
And said fuck it. I'm going to try this
thing with these with these guys called
the rolling stones, I guess
And you know, he became the
greatest rock star in the world
But in that moment if you read the
biography he still hadn't made a decision
whether or not he was going to do music

(16:07):
He was like fully fully enough what he's
watching is like is this
going to work or not, you know
Yeah, I still I still think that
sometimes yeah, I know, you know my yeah
So my I I actually formed a production
company in ireland called risk
productions because
my my initials are rrsk
And I thought that'd be a cool
So I I didn't know that yeah. Yeah, I

(16:28):
love that idea of like
not is this going to work?
It's the gamble, you know
Like you said like selling you're selling
that script to mgm and it just it gets
you back to zero and you're on the road
And you're you're in the game
And we'll love him
You know when we were trying to get we
were trying to get
angelina jolie on the tomb raider
We can move on to other stuff. I just but
there's just so much in
that thing where she um

(16:50):
You know, we were sitting around in larry
warden's office and we're all we have the
script and we've got the green line
We got to get an actor. We got it. If we
got if we get the
actor we go into production
And we can't you know, we all wanted
angelina, but everybody kept saying
You know, she's not she's not doing well
right now. She's she was
billy bob. She's partying a lot
um, you know, everybody knew that it

(17:11):
wasn't like a secret,
but you know, she was like
but
We basically, you know
John and I basically said said go call
her manager back and say we're gonna get
her in the best shape of her life
We're gonna do ropes courses and she's
gonna you know, get a
trainer and a nutrition list
She's gonna learn to ride motorcycles and
fight kabra. She's gonna be a in three
months before she
starts a real frame of film

(17:31):
She's going to be a super badass in the
best shape of her life and we're like
So he called her back
He called the manager back
Couldn't get ahold of
the agent and the manager
Called him back in an hour after that
pitch and said she'll do it
And she signed a three picture deal based
on that and if you look
at her physically before
Tomb Raider and then what

(17:51):
she looked like in the movie
It's a different she's a different person
So we actually did that for her and she
did that for herself
And she's an amazing human being and I
love her and I didn't really get to know
her that well to be honest with you
But I do know that that was something
that we had suggested
and she went for it again
It's like she took that it's like you
have it's everything that i've ever done
Friday night lights black blisters. I can

(18:13):
tell you stories, you know stories where
people just going let
the dice fly high, man
Let's just go for it.
Let's just take a chance
One thing I want to add to that is is
If you told me that you're going to pitch
larkroft tomb raider an early
Video game adaptation and angelina joe
lee was going to have hesitations
I wouldn't have assumed

(18:34):
it was the physicality
I would have assumed that maybe an actor
would judge a video game adaptation
before that they're proven
From I mean, that's a great point. Yeah
It's like there's a million reasons why
actors could be hesitating and and and
there was no judgment there
It was it was mostly about the
physicality that she would have to
prepare for so that's

(18:54):
also a credit to her
I i've heard amazing things about her
work ethic and and her
passion for her, you know craft so
And yeah, and she um, you know, that's a
really good point man
Because she was an artist and she was
doing she was doing a lot of indie work
and some studio things
But more things that were leaning more
towards straight drama
So for her to jump into a big action
genre piece like that

(19:15):
Just I think again, she just let the dice
fly high. She said why not?
Let's give it a try and the movie
Being you know movies
have been really popular
And who gives a fuck of the
critics say it was just really
John and I were only
involved in the second one
We pitched them we pitched
them the idea and they loved it
They paid us full freight for it and then
they hired another writer. So

(19:37):
Again, that's just like that that gets
gets into another complete version of
hollywood, which is this
Yeah risk mitigation, you know, let's
let's just go now now that
we have success over here
Let's try something else to get even more
success as opposed to going
Same thing we get into friday night
lights. We got you know friday night
lights. We got cancelled every year
For five years we'll always find a way

(19:58):
We would either cut the budget or we
would go work with direct tv or we would
do whatever we had to do
to figure out a way
to stay on the air and
It was always just you
know, we would that was just a
Thing of passion, you know by the time we
our budget went down every single year
Where wow, no shows such a successful
show as well, you know, we would get we

(20:19):
it got to be so bad that we
were shooting without lighting
We walk into it like a house. We'd move
everybody's shit around put a few
pictures that looked
like coach and tammy's
uh
we would um
You know
We would we'd go in and shoot with three
cameras 16 millimeter bullies and then be
on the move again before the lighting
truck even showed up
You know, that's the shafts we had to do

(20:40):
it because you know, it was just passion
Let's just get this made this is if we
can just keep going we will create
something that everybody
will love and eventually
The passion and hard work that we put
into it and the overcoming
of the obstacles paid off
You know and people
began to really find the show
And just sorry just a note on when you
say larry gordon that's uh, that's larry

(21:02):
gordon who produced I
mean a ton of stuff from
Predator to field of dreams to you know,
all of these sort of
massive movies hellboy watchmen
Larry was a was an amazing producer and
Uh, you know he used to we'd go to his
conference room. He
had like he had like five
little toy, uh

(21:24):
You know poodles running around and so
you'd be at any given moment. You'd be at
your feet would be attacked
So you'd be in a meeting like kind of
like having a jumper out
Um, him and loyd levin were a great team
and they worked really hard. They really
believed they they really
supported writers, you know
And uh, yeah, they were great and he he
obviously had a huge huge career

(21:45):
So, uh, I I don't want to gloss over the
acting part of your your
career. Can you talk about that?
so because you you you you kind of
You know, you kind of
started out with with lara croft
But you know reen and I are so intrigued
by what happened before that
Can you kind of connect the dots here
because sure it seems like you definitely
connect or resonate with the

(22:06):
writing part of your career
more than the acting
Yeah, I I think the acting thing was if
somebody asked me to try it
and I did and I did a bunch of tv
And some movies I did like thunderheart
and gorgonzola's
ability kid and a few other
Uh got into a few other roles
a lot but a lot of network tv
uh, this was before streaming
was really taking off and um

(22:28):
What happened was I just kept wanting to
write wanting to write
kept being pulled towards that
But the acting was
paying the bills a little bit
um
But what happened guys was I kept getting
like if you look at my career if you like
Like when I started doing like quantum
leap and china beach and all these other
episodes of these
great shows that were on
At the time I kept
getting cast as the bad guy

(22:48):
I did star track. I was like the worst
bad guy in the history. I tried to kill
wharf. I mean I was just like
And I didn't like
I just see myself as a really nice person
and I didn't I just like I
don't I didn't want to be
Just cast as like the jack nicholson
thing. I was like supposed to be like

(23:08):
that guy all the time
Yeah, it's a testament to your acting
though because you know
Agreed working and you kept
getting cast on big big shows
I mean that's not an easy thing to even
have that you know in your in your kind
of in your history and like
Yeah, I was booking these network shows.
I mean that's it. That's no small feat
But then great a lot of actors would kill

(23:30):
for credits like that and be making money
as an actor. I mean, yeah, it was fun
Guys, it was just like
uh, you know, it's like
When I'd done the star track and I had
gotten the reoccurings here and there
That was really satisfying and I loved
it. Yeah, I loved it when jean rodenberry
would walk up to you on
the set and go, you know
Klingons really prefer their gawk served

(23:51):
live, you know, you're like
What fucking?
Back off jean. I know seriously that that
happened to me on on stage 19, which is
where star trek is shot in on paramat but
um
It was it was just guys. It was just like
I loved it and I was and
i'm grateful for the time

(24:11):
I had to do do that
But my heart was really like not in front
of the camera. I lost my
My courage to do what you
guys do acting is so hard
And it takes so much craft and I just
really respect and admire the
craft that that goes into it
And I just didn't I
felt like a bit of a fraud
I didn't feel like that was really me. I
thought really what was me
was to try to tell stories

(24:32):
and um
One of the best shows I was ever on was
with ron moor in caprica
And the weird thing is is that the first
episode of star trek that I
did was written by ron moor
and uh
So that was when I was in there trying to
you know after he had done battle story
galactica and he was bringing up caprica
He goes we started talking and we

(24:52):
suddenly realized that I had played this
character that he had written
And it was his first script that he had
ever gotten produced
So and then now ron moor has gone on to
become fucking ron
moor, you know, he's got
Battle star galactica star trek next
generation deep space
nine all of the star tracks
For all mankind outlander huge show
Massive shows these are all shows that he

(25:13):
created produce, you know
created and ran. I mean so
So ron was amazing and wow, but I just
love that we had that connection, you
know that that was
back in the day where yeah
You know you walked into an audition and
they and then like you you
had to go there in person
And then a lot of times you would go you
would be told to go to wardrobe
Immediately because you're shooting

(25:34):
tomorrow. I mean that was that's how a
lot of tv was just done
It was just always fun
That was a little crazy
always by the seat of your pants
And people were willing to just take take
these chances to do whatever they had to
do to get things made
I feel like we really missed out on like
the golden era of hollywood. I mean now
Really do

(25:55):
But I think we have to bring it back
I think people have to realize if we're
going to get out of this slump
We're going to dig our
way out of this thing
The power is it be the bezos of the world
and the people that have money
Just need to start spending money again,
and they'll find that
success will come, you know
And just roll the dice and just keep keep
making things keep trying

(26:16):
different things, you know
And everybody's just
It's just really it's
really a bummer for everybody
It can certainly feel
quite sterile because you know
We've talked about this a lot in the
podcast myself and he can like about the
self-tape world versus you know
What's that like for you guys
to have to self-tape? I mean
I I like it, you know, I do enjoy it

(26:37):
because there's a lot of
control you can kind of set it up
There's it there's a kind of a there's a
creative process in trying to figure out
how it's like a little
You know how to make all these
E.S.P for that?
No, absolutely not. Yeah,
that's that's the hard part
I mean now you are responsible for all
the equipment getting a reader
You are doing the job that a

(26:58):
casting director used to do
Um a lot of it, you know, you're not
taking direction.
You're not getting notes
So you're kind of just giving your own
version of something and there's some
freedom in that but there's also
There's a lack of
collaboration which can feel a bit
A bit frustrating at times. Yeah a bit
isolating exactly exactly
because you're kind of
Sterilized is a great

(27:19):
word because reen and I are
Fairly tech friendly and we we like the
filmmaking process and it
was an easier transition
Compared to those who were like, hey, I
still haven't figured
out zoom after three years
You know what I mean?
So it's like it's like
it could go both ways
And I I think kind of like what I want to
talk about as this episode goes on is is

(27:40):
how technology has changed
How we have to do business and you kind
of have to adapt to the changes or hey
pick up another career
Um reen and I have had those experiences
Going into a room on the on on the lot
where producers there's 10 producers
sitting in front of you
I love that. I don't miss that

(28:01):
But it's one of those things where it's
like we had that experience where no one
you're doing self-tape
You know in your garage on vacation
It's such a different
world. You know what I mean?
Yeah, um, so I want to I want to I don't
want to gloss over you
doing a play with val kilmer
So, you know we just one more question

(28:21):
about your acting you happen to do a play
with val kilmer. That's a long time
um
Before you actually start to get paid to
write so can you talk about what that was
like where you're like,
hey i'm just doing this
You can't meet me
I I took acting pretty seriously when I
was in the state when I
was working in theater
that was like

(28:43):
Okay, so
Here's like how it started
I was a quarterback at a
high school in nebraska and
When I would go into the
huddle to call the plays
I would talk so extremely fast
Because I was so nervous that the team
couldn't hear me. I
would like call the plate
I run up to the line and they i'll be
looking back at me like
what the fuck did you say?

(29:04):
so the coach sent me
to the acting teacher
and said
Teach this guy how to talk slower when
he's nervous and she did
A great acting teacher in
high school. Anyway, she
She taught me how to slow my speech down
and when I was under pressure and then
she asked me to play
Um a role in an author
miller play, uh, the crucible

(29:25):
She asked me to play john proctor at this
high school production
And I did and I loved it and I thought
Theater is great theater is really like
this is a way of this is art, you know,
and um, so when I met val
I got cast um in um hamlet at the
colorado shakespeare festival
It was because I just wanted to act
anywhere I could and I the colorado the
summer shakespeare

(29:46):
festivals are a fucking blast
So there's so many of them and you just
you audition then you get in and you get
a move someplace and you get a
A little dorm with somebody and there's
just everybody's kind of it's very
communal and you're living together
And it's just a lot of fun and val
was was was got had to it was playing
hamlet in colorado and I
was playing hooray show and he

(30:07):
And I ended up becoming really good
friends, you know, um
And what had he done before that was was
he a name of any kind top? Oh, so he was
Okay. Wow
Iceman he was ice man. So
yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh
We're we're aware. It just that was like
the prime val kilmer
time. Yeah, that's not bad

(30:28):
Timing was always on your side in a way,
you know, we will probably talk about
that at the end of the podcast
If I was val was uh val was absolutely
incredible and he was
His his hamlet was brilliant and then
later in life, you
know, he had had me read
The mark twain one man show that he did.
I don't know if you guys ever had a
chance to see that one

(30:49):
Oh, I heard about that
sick. I heard about that
Um, he came over to my house in malibu
like the last couple of years before he
passed and we spent
some time together and

(31:52):
But, you know, he was so
committed to that role.
I mean, he changed,
like that's when I knew
that I was never gonna
be able to touch that.
He was so committed to transforming
and to living in the skin of Jim
and to knowing
everything he could possibly know
about Morrison, listening
to everything he ever sang,

(32:13):
everything he ever wrote,
every person that ever
had a conversation with him.
And he transformed.
This was a guy that I had
known for five, six years
at the time, and I didn't recognize him
when I would see him on stage
because he had become this other person.
And that's what I knew I
could never do personally.
Like that takes another
level of self-confidence

(32:38):
to be able to let yourself go,
that he was able to exhibit.
And that's where I
really learned what acting was
with watching Val.
If you ever get a
chance to watch the "Doorage"
if you haven't seen it,
listen to a couple "Doorage" records
and then watch him and
you'll go, "Holy fuck,
he's Jim Morrison."
(laughs)

(32:58):
God bless you, Val.
I was actually just
trying to piece together.
So the time difference between "Top Gun,"
"Top Gun" was in 1986 and
then "The Doors" in 1991.
So that's peak Val Kilmer right there.
Yeah, and then I think he did,
he did, you know,
what's that great Western
that he did, he played Doc Holliday.
Oh, "Tombstone."
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, "Tombstone," yeah.
That I think is the role

(33:20):
that he most identified with personally.
Like if you asked him like which
character was most like you,
he would say Doc Holliday, yeah.
Yeah, I watched an
interview with him recently
where he was talking
about how he even got
the vocal cadence for that role.
And like when you say, you know,
just immersed in a role,
like what an incredible actor.
Really, you know, and I

(33:42):
think in some ways underrated.
Like not really appreciated
for how good he was, you know.
I think a lot of actors really see that,
but you're right, and
that may be not the rest
of the world or the industry,
but I think actors really
admired what he could do
and can see what he could do.
I mean, obviously
there's a lot of controversy
about "The Doors" and behind the scenes

(34:03):
if you have any stories.
I can only say, I'll tell
you this in a very broad way,
and again, a tribute to
like the art of filmmaking.
Oliver Stone
transformed the set of "The Doors"
into a 1960s music festival.
It was music and partying and drugs.
It's just awesome, man.
It was just like to make everybody feel

(34:24):
like they were making,
they were living in the world
of the movie they were making.
And then you put in Meg Ryan.
(laughing)
So sweet.
I never even met her, you know,
but you know, I never was around
when they were shooting this thing.
She was hiding in her
trailer because she was scared of--
I was probably not.
I was banned from the
set and I was, you know,

(34:44):
he didn't want me around.
So one other thing going back to,
we'll move on from
Nebraska, but I've heard of,
I personally will suggest
everyone going to an acting class
or a voice class, whether you're a
teacher, fireman, doctor,
I think it's so valuable

(35:05):
to be able to communicate,
but a Nebraska quarterback,
that's the first time I ever heard that.
Yeah, and that changed my life, honestly.
It was like, she,
because I would, seriously,
it'd be like, actually, I'm four.
I would just get
through it, I was so amped,
I couldn't control myself.
And really one of the

(35:25):
most, like you're saying,
it's like one of the most
important things you can do
in this world is to be
able to communicate well.
Acting is a great way of
learning it, yeah, absolutely.
I think people have sort of
lost the art of, you know,
that vocal training
that you get in theater
and then even the warmups
you have to do in theater,
because I think people
just don't really focus
on it anymore.
And I'm guilty of it

(35:45):
myself, you know what I mean?
I don't, I don't know, do you?
We can't do.
I actually do do a vocal
warmup literally every day.
And-- Wow.
These warmups, like, are you like,
is it breathing mostly
or is it, are you like,
are you like doing like,
plosives, plosives or--
All of it. Yeah.
Breathing is like really,
really, I think really essential.

(36:07):
It's this idea of being
able to speak under duress.
Wherever that is,
wherever you're holding tension.
Public speaking, I
mean, man, that's really--
My sister was having vocal
issues that as a teacher,
I got her to start
doing these vocal exercises
and they went away.
And this is why we do it, my mom is--

(36:28):
And Ika, did you have, did you grow up,
did you have an accent, did you--
I was working hard to get rid
of my South Jersey Philly accent.
Why? Water.
Water.
I just wanted to jump in
there, speaking of accents.
So the first, this is a little tidbit
in the history of me and Patrick.
We didn't know each other at all,

(36:48):
but I was living in Chicago.
My first ever TV audition in America
was for a show called Chicago Code,
which at the time was called Ride Along.
Yeah, it was called Ride
Along at the beginning, right?
At that point?
Yes.
Which was--
An episode that I had written
and I was in the
works we were auditioning.
Yeah, that's amazing.

(37:08):
That is wild, because it was a part of a,
was it an under, an informant?
And he was Irish, I thought.
I thought he was Irish, but it was
Southside Chicago Irish
and I didn't know that until
in the room of the audition.
And I said to the cast
director Claire Simon,
I was like, wait, this guy's,

(37:29):
this guy just to be
clear, this guy's Irish.
She goes, no, it's
Southside Chicago Irish.
And I was like,
(gasps)
and all the blood drained from my face.
(laughing)
Classic, classic re-end story.
This is history.
The rest of the audition was a blur.
And I came out going, oh no,
I thought I was gonna get
kicked out of show business.
I was never gonna audition again.
You know what, though?
You were great.

(37:49):
We just wanna, I think
went with an older guy.
I think he was much older than you.
Sean Ryan was the creator showrunner.
John and I were his second command
executive producers.
You know, I just have to say this,
because he's just, I
did three shows with Sean.
I just respect him
and admire him so much.
The first cop show he ever did,

(38:11):
he was the guy at the end of the pilot
where a cop killed another cop.
And that cop that killed the cop
becomes the hero of the show.
I mean, how fucking brilliant is that?
That's the shield.
That was Sean Ryan.
Oh, wow.
Yeah, that's his big
coming out party is the shield,
right? That's right.
And that was the coming out moment

(38:32):
where everybody went, oh!
Nobody had ever seen
that shit on TV, ever.
All of the procedurals
and all of the cop shows
that have ever been done,
you can't take the hero and
have him fucking kill a cop.
We entered into an era of TV
where the anti-hero was
just starting to hit its prime

(38:53):
with the Sopranos breaking bad,
and you realize that-- You got it, man.
That was entering into a
great era of TV right there.
Yeah, and the Mad Men and stuff.
I think Sean really had a
big part of igniting that fuse,
honestly, with that moment.
I'm kind of amazing that we,
that's where our paths crossed,
but we didn't know each
other until years later.
In LA, that was, yeah.

(39:16):
But they had crossed in 2007, 2008.
I think it was like 11
or 12, actually, yeah.
I guess let's go back to the transition
from acting to writing.
What was the moment, if there was,
where you were like, I
want to commit to writing,
and acting is gonna be in the rear view.

(39:39):
Man, that's a, it's a really,
I don't think it was,
there was a moment, Egon.
I think it was a, it was a,
I was sort of in and
out of both worlds there
where I started the transition.
I was afraid to really try screenwriting,
because I felt like it
was gonna be really hard.
But then at some point, it was just like,

(39:59):
emotionally, I wasn't
feeling like I was able to keep up
with what was going on in acting.
It was just, it just seemed so hard
and so emotionally rich, and just like,
I wanted to hide
behind a screen, you know.
And then I had a story
that I really thought
I'd like to try writing,
and then this guy hands me these tapes,
and it was just like this
series of events, you know.

(40:21):
And I think I was writing,
and I was still getting like
acting jobs there at the end.
And then finally, when I, you know,
when I decided to
commit to it, I knew that,
Val said, I remember Val telling me,
you're probably gonna have to
write five or six screenplays
before you sell one.
And he was right, I
wrote seven screenplays
before I sold one.

(40:41):
And it was hard, it was hard,
and it just took a lot of
commitment, a lot of work,
and, you know, but it
was just, it's just,
again, it's just like, if you're an actor
and it's in you like it is with you guys,
you gotta follow it.
You don't have a choice.
But for me, it was like my heart had gone
into the idea of

(41:01):
storytelling through the written medium.
And so that was-
You knew where your vision was,
you knew where your passion
was, and you listened to that.
And I feel like that can
easily get lost in our world
where we could do a
million things on our phone
or a million jobs on our
phone, and where do we go?
But it's great that you were able to
listen to that voice.
Well, again, it's like

(41:23):
this whole thing that we do,
it's not accounting,
it's not, it's really,
it's really like you gotta,
a lot of it's still from our heart,
a lot of it has to do
with taking chances,
being willing to take chances,
and getting, you know,
and then getting yourself
around the right people, you know?
It's like every time,
everything I've ever done
is because I was
lucky enough to be around
really super talented
people, great actors.

(41:45):
Yeah. Like, you know,
all the actors on Friday Night Lights,
they didn't, they had, nobody had any
experience, you know,
except Taylor, except Coach, you know,
Chandler and Connie.
But the kids, none of them had any,
really, any real experience.
And we gave them the best
opportunity to explore acting
because we didn't make them use marks.
We just put up three

(42:06):
cameras and here's the scene
and just move around any way
you like and we'll find you.
And that's why it looked--
Oh, that's interesting.
But it also gave them this freedom to
just find themselves
as opposed to having to think about,
get here, say it here,
move over here, say this,
you know, blocking was
gone, marks were gone,
make this happen, get in

(42:26):
this room and we'll shoot it.
We can jump into Friday Night Lights.
But just even the
process of writing for you,
because, you know, I've
read a lot of your scripts
and you're an
incredible writer in that, like,
they're so engaging and
they just keep you in it.
You can see the whole world.
But just-- Thank you.
The actual process of writing,
you find writing quite easy, right,
to sit down and do as a process.

(42:48):
Because we talked to Kirsten Sheridan,
you know, who's a writer and director,
and she still finds it a
grind to make herself sit down
and do this, you know, to do this work.
But you've, that's always
come quite easy to you, right?
Yeah, for some
reason, I love it, you know.
It's just, well, I
know from experience then,
is that you just have to have a,

(43:08):
I spend a lot of time
thinking about what I'm gonna write
before I sit down.
And then I write a really long outline,
really detailed, really detailed outline
before I write a scene.
And then I write the scenes out
to put the screenplay
or the teleplay together.
And then I do a lot of, I
get notes from everybody, man.

(43:29):
I wanna hear what everybody thinks.
And I feel like as an
individual, one person is okay,
but a lot of people, an
audience, for example, is genius.
So if I give it to five people,
I'm gonna get a lot of similar notes,
and not those are gonna be the problems.
I love that. Wow.
And it's like, and
I'm not afraid of that.

(43:49):
I'm not afraid of,
and also I know, and I think
this applies to acting too,
in a big way, which
is if I do what I know
is like my absolute best,
and I'm as thorough as I can possibly be,
and I get every, think of every angle
and every way of telling this beat,
or making sure that
everybody has a chance to chime in

(44:10):
and be open to what people have to say,
then rejection doesn't bother me.
Because I've written a lot of stuff
that people haven't made,
and it doesn't bother me.
Because I know that what I wrote
was the best I could do at that time.
And I think that applies to acting too.
If you're putting into the audition
and people don't cast you,
that's not because you're not brilliant.

(44:31):
It's just because you're
not right for the part.
Like in Chicago Code,
I remember the guy we cast in that part.
He was much older, he was kind of chunky,
and wobble, kind of a little more,
a little of a, almost more
of a typical type casting.
You would have been a
little more offbeat.
But it wasn't because you weren't great.
It wasn't because you
didn't do a great job.
It was because you just didn't fit.
And a lot of times
that's what happens in acting.

(44:52):
It's like, you just have to know
that when you go in
there for your audition,
and rejection is gonna bounce off you
if you know you did, if
you fucking nailed it.
Because there's so many
things that can go against you.
The type, age, a person's, like a friend,
a personal contact, your
status, your race, everything.

(45:13):
You know, a lot of
shit has to come together
for a person to get a role.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But that's why, that's why as the artist,
that's why as the artist,
we have to be completely 100% confident
that we've done
everything we can to do our best.
And then it's like, then
it's in God's hands, honestly.
Yeah, but I love the lack
of preciousness with that,

(45:34):
and the humility.
Like you put it out there,
and you're open to notes, you're open to,
because I love, I love notes.
Because I, you know, I
don't ever feel like,
oh, I nailed it.
I've never come away
from something going,
nailed that, couldn't
have done any better.
That was about, you know, that was,
sometimes I'll come away gone,
that was the best I
could have done at that time.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
But it can always be better.
But I really welcome notes.

(45:55):
I don't see them as a personal criticism.
Right.
And ultimately we're
doing this for an audience.
You're, I'm writing for an audience,
you're acting for an audience.
So why not ask the
audience what they think?
(laughs)
This idea of being objective,
rewriting your material and
trying to improve your craft.
How did that, how did
you hone that muscle,

(46:15):
or were you always like that?
I just learned that, you know,
I just learned pretty early
on that it was a fool's error
and to try to think I was
gonna do something by myself
in this business.
This is a collaborative art form.
This is like, you know, you can,
there are some guys that
can write and produce and star
and do all that all by themselves,

(46:36):
but they're still not
doing craft service.
They're still not lighting.
They're still not transpo.
We do this as a community.
When you make a movie,
when you make a TV show,
it's not about you.
It's not about me.
It's not, it's about the
community that comes together
to create something.
If it's a show, if it's a short film,

(46:57):
we've all experienced it.
It feels like a family.
Even if you're there for
a day or a week or a year,
it feels like a family.
And it's like, so once I
learned that pretty early on,
which I loved, I just went, it's okay.
It's okay to just share.
It's okay to be open.
It's okay to listen and take notes.
I don't always agree,
but I'm willing to
hear what you have to say.

(47:17):
But I also read a biography by Eli Kazan,
who had just, was doing
East of Eden with James Dean.
And he was staying, he
was shooting in New York
and he was staying at a hotel and he,
the doorman walks up to him, he says,
"Hey, I read your script."
It's like, somehow the
doorman had gotten a copy
of East of Eden.
He goes, "Okay."

(47:38):
He goes, "I had some thoughts for you."
Eli Kazan goes, "Okay,
what are you thinking?"
And he told him, and the next day,
Kazan said, and this is what Kazan wrote.
He said, he put it in the script.
He goes, "I don't care
where the idea comes from.
I don't fucking care where the note,
who gives me the note, I don't care.

(48:00):
If it's better, if it's
gonna make the story better,
I'm gonna do it."
Not only the really
great directors and writers,
but also the ones that
you want to work with.
If a great joke comes from the guy
who's rigging the lights,
if it's a great joke,
it's a great joke, put it in.
There's no ego about it.
And that's the type of set that I respect
and love to be on too.
And there's a difference
between that and getting,

(48:21):
in just getting a set of formal notes
or asking your friend to give you notes
or asking your group of friends
or asking the executive that's like,
I mean, a lot of
times the executives now,
if I'm gonna be really honest,
are a lot younger than me
and have a lot less experience,
but that doesn't mean that
they don't have great ideas.
You have to be open to that.
It was a great story.
William Goldman, who like did,

(48:43):
he just like did some of the great-
Yeah, "The Adventures in Springtime."
And he did, I think his most famous film
is "Bush and Sundance."
But William Goldman
is known as being like
one of the greatest screenwriters.
And I think he used to get,
he was like one of the last writers
that could get movies
green lit as the writer,
think about that.
And one day he walks into a meeting

(49:05):
with a young executive at Paramount
and the guy doesn't
really know who he is.
And he goes, "So tell me, Mr. Goldman,
what have you done?"
And William goes, "You go first."
(laughing) What a line.
He's also the one that popularized,
no one knows anything.
You fucking Oscar's on
the desk or something.

(49:26):
He's also the one who pioneered the line,
"No one knows anything."
That's right.
In Hollywood.
And that's exactly right.
And that's why you have
to make a lot of shit.
That's why you guys
should be working every day
on shows that are being
invented all the time.
Networks should be
making 30 or 40 pilots a year,
trying to get one or two to crack.

(49:47):
And everybody should be working
and just because nobody knows.
I saw an interview with
Michael Caine recently
that just popped up on
Instagram or something
where he was talking
about how doing bad movies
is I've done a lot of bad movies.
And he said, but he doesn't keep
because he's like his
theory being that like
the person who turns them down,

(50:07):
the actor that goes, "No, I'm not doing
that, it's terrible."
And then the big one
comes along and they're,
they haven't been working for two years.
So they're not ready.
They're not warmed up.
They're not in it.
And in the meantime,
he's paying the bills
and he's gaining experience
and he's working and he's
working and he's working.
And then the big one
comes along, he's ready.
Just keep making stuff.
No actors who turn

(50:28):
down things out of fear.
No, I don't wanna be
associated with that.
Just keep doing it.
Commercial, short
films, whatever you can do.
Plays, you know, I know
you've done everything.
Rian, you've done everything.
I don't know your resume as well.
I know you've done a lot of network TV,
but I've done a lot of different shit.
Plays and book readings and
lots of cool Irish TV shows.

(50:52):
I mean, I really admire that.
I really do.
I think that's the
right path for everybody.
I just love it.
Social media and data and
responses, that's feedback.
It just so happens
that in this day and age,
it's actually easier to get feedback.
You mentioned a thing or a
thought on Twitter or threads

(51:12):
and it blows up.
You're like, wow, people
were interested in that?
Well, you're really cracking
into a very interesting area
of conversation if you
wanna talk about data.
You wanna talk about
like the age of information
that we're in now, which
is really kind of terrifying
in a way, but also you have
to talk about how do we adapt?

(51:34):
I'm not really sure yet.
I've always been really good at,
you have to be really
good in this business
to adapting to the new
times as they roll out,
finding things to do
like you guys are brilliant
because you're not sitting
around waiting to fucking,
to be an actor.
You created your own show.
And this platform, you
can do anything with it.
You start showing movies,

(51:54):
you start showing short films in the
middle of your podcast
and start owning some of your own stuff
and create your own show from the podcast
if you wanted to.
That's adapted for times.
Write that down, Econ.
(laughing)
An algorithm, an AI algorithm,
you like these
earbuds, you like this shirt,
you like this music, you like this movie,

(52:14):
you like this car, that's five likes.
It's already knows what you like to wear,
what you like to drive and
what you like to listen to.
That's the algorithm already knows that
from five thumbs up.
And still, Econ, like you were saying,
with all that information,
we still don't know really how to predict
how we're gonna respond
as an audience, as a group.

(52:35):
Yeah.
You know, maybe the algorithm may know
how we're gonna respond as individuals,
but it may not know
how we're gonna respond
as a large group, as a
hundred people in a movie theater.
You're completely right.
Data probably is a triggering kind of
different conversation.
You're completely right.

(52:55):
It is, it is.
I think what I was
getting at is feedback.
Yeah, right.
But what gives me a little bit of hope
is something that you
said already is that
nobody knows how an
audience is gonna react.
For something to be hit, there's an
unknown quantity there,
which I think AI can't replicate or
predict accurately yet,
and hopefully never, is
that there's a human element,

(53:16):
the idea of an audience is unpredictable.
Like something can
become a hit for many reasons,
something can fail for many reasons.
And in order for
something to become a hit,
like I think it's a
miracle that anything gets made
or becomes a hit at
all, because as you said,
it's a collaborative art form,
maybe the most
collaborative art form, in my opinion,
because so many people
have to come together

(53:36):
to make something, and then so many
things have to go right
in order for that to be a success.
And I don't think AI can accurately,
or technology can
accurately predict that.
And I love that.
I completely agree that
the magic is in the unknown.
If everything was always going to happen
the way that you wanted it to,
like perfect AI videos

(53:58):
or whatever, it's not fun.
And without the human
element of this could be a bomb,
it's not fun.
(laughing)
This is the danger.
When we talk about data and algorithms,
they're constantly
changing their algorithm.
And next thing you know,
the way that it gets
directed to everyone,
slowly we're all
watching the same videos.

(54:18):
Slowly we're all
groupthink and mindthinking.
We have very little understanding
of how these algorithms
are actually controlling
how we think.
And I don't wanna be
conspiracy theorists, but--
No, you're not.
Exactly, you're exactly spot on.
It's really like, it goes back to like,
what drives our economy?

(54:40):
We're in an entertainment business.
There's this personal
thing that we're talking about,
which is the personal
experience that we all love
of being entertained,
of watching a great film,
of laughing or crying or being blown away
by whatever insights are being shared.
It's an incredible
thing that we all work in.
It's like so special and unique.
You know, we are
subjected to the growth of economy

(55:01):
and we live in a capitalistic world
that is based on perpetual growth.
And there's this
magical idea called credit,
where a bank can have a
million dollars in, like today.
Right now, you kind of, or
if you got a million dollars
in the bank, you opened up a bank,
that means you could loan
seven times the value of that,

(55:22):
legally, you probably do more.
So that's the magic of
commerce, perpetual growth.
That's how money grows and
that's how people take chances
and take risks and buy things.
Well, first it was cars,
and then we'll just
move through history here.
Cars, everybody had to have a car,
then everybody got a car,
we needed something new.
Well, now there's TV, well,
everybody has to go buy a TV

(55:42):
and the electronic age sort of came in.
Everybody had to get some TVs.
Then it was like.
Computers.
Computers, right?
So now the computer age happens
and everybody gets an Apple and
everybody's got an iPhone.
So what's the next
thing that we're gonna do?
The next thing that's gonna
really be the big game changer
in the economy and the
growth economy is gonna be AI.
But it's the first time in history

(56:05):
that the thing that's gonna,
that science has always contributed to.
The next thing, this AI
thing is gonna be also the thing
that can destroy us,
which we've never had before.
The last thing we had
that could destroy the world
was the atomic bomb.
We blew two of them up in China,
I mean in Japan rather,
excuse me, and that was it.
The world decided we

(56:25):
could never do that again.
But right now the world's not deciding
that we can never do AI.
As for what we have to do is
we have to fight that shit.
Because as soon as, I mean,
it would resist as much as we can.
It is a resistance moment until there's
an atomic bomb moment
where the world can wake up and go,
we can't do this anymore.
We have to try to
resist as long as we can

(56:46):
until that seminal moment happens
where we all decide
there has to be regulation.
The problem with
global regulation right now
is that nobody wants to
put, nobody wants to stop.
China's competing with the US,
the US is competing
with France, Russia's,
everybody's got their own
AI, their own algorithms,
and everybody's competing
and nobody's willing to stop
because as soon as they stop,
someone's gonna get ahead of them.

(57:07):
Exactly, this is like the Cold War
and I think that's a good
metaphor for all this stuff.
We have to realize the power of all this.
And still, a lot of people are learning
the power of all this.
A lot of people are learning the data.
By the way, it wasn't too long ago
that you had Zuckerberg
explaining to Congress
what Facebook was.
It's like, you know what I mean?
A series of tubes.

(57:27):
We need to get up to speed
and we need to get to
regulation sooner than later.
Here's the really scary
part about what you just said.
To really take it to the terror level.
It's like there's always
been throughout history
a man in the right place
at the right time, right?
Augusta was in the
right place to run Rome
and create the Pax Romana.
Napoleon, like him or hate him,

(57:48):
really reshaped Europe and
brought in the Enlightenment.
FDR during World War II
defeated Hitler with Churchill.
Those were the men of their times.
They were the right men who could deal
with what was happening
and create the positive
change that was needed.
We don't have those leaders right now.

(58:09):
We need somebody,
maybe it's one of you guys.
We need a leader to step up and be the--
I choose Rian.
Be the FDR, be the Napoleon.
Lead us out of these really, really
difficult, complicated--
Ultimately, we have to
get to a point where,
hey, maybe it's not the
best thing that we find
the cheapest, biggest, baddest thing

(58:30):
and we can actually put humanity first,
yet right now they're
chasing after lobby dollars.
Yeah. And then that's where we are.
And to bring it back from a macro level
to sort of a micro level,
what have you seen in terms of AI
in your particular profession?
Have you seen people
start to use it more?

(58:50):
Have you seen, do
you, like, how does that,
how has it become incorporated?
Is it a big problem?
Do people stay away from it?
How does it work in terms of writing?
You mean for writers?
Yeah, for writers.
Yeah, for writers right now,
we're using it basically for research.
It's just a fast Google right now.
I've had it write scenes.
I've said, basically you
can tell my chat or my Gemini,

(59:12):
say, write a scene in
the final draft format
where two people are
sitting at a Starbucks
and they're in one guy
and a guy meets the girl
and they fall in love and
decide to travel together,
whatever, just make some shit up.
And basically you can give it instruction
and instruction and instruction,
but it takes, by the time

(59:34):
you've given it enough instruction
where you can actually
rewrite the scene that it's written,
you could have, I could
have written the scene
three or four times on my own.
So it's not faster.
It's not, and it's not,
they're not hitting the nuanced marks.
It feels like it's
written by a six year old
with a lot of like language skills.
It's not, they're not there yet.
So I think we're still safe.

(59:54):
Our union is doing everything it can
to keep AI out of the business.
And because it's like, but
eventually, I don't know,
it's probably all gonna tumble, but.
I think this is a great firsthand look.
I was always curious because I know that
with the writer's
strike a couple of years ago,
AI wasn't completely
removed from the equation.

(01:00:17):
AI is allowed in writer's
rooms, et cetera, et cetera,
with caveats, but
that's where they landed on
with this first negotiation.
So.
It's also trying to,
they're trying to figure out
the streaming, the
streaming models have lost income.
So they're losing, they're
not, I mean, the network,
when we just had network TV,
and most of the television

(01:00:37):
came through the network model
where everything was
monetized through ad rev.
Everybody got rich, man.
Everybody made money, you know,
things would go into
syndication, we'd all do well.
And then the stream models
came in and with streamers,
basically you're gonna have a hit show,
but if people aren't
continuing to buy onto that show,

(01:00:58):
aren't continuing to subscribe,
that hit show will go away
because they need to
bring in something new
to get more subscribers.
So it's really like,
there have been great shows
that have been canceled
because they're not bringing in,
they have a great audience
space and they're brilliant,
they're creatively, you
know, critically acclaimed,
great actors, whatever, but
if they're not bringing in

(01:01:18):
any more subscribers, they're dead.
So that model doesn't work
because it's too expensive
to keep making more and more shows,
trying to build up a
little pieces of audience.
So I think what
they're all gonna have to do
is go back to the ad rev version of,
but it's gonna be some
version of network TV.
Thank you, and that'll work
and we'll all be doing a

(01:01:38):
lot better then, you know?
This is actually spot on
with what we wanted to cover.
If you're in a union or
you're not in a union,
whatever it is, we just
all have to be very vigilant
about slowing the pace of the invasive
artificial
intelligence into our industry.
Everything has had its
day, TV, we thought with,

(01:01:59):
TV was gonna kill theater, it didn't,
radio was gonna kill this,
movies were gonna kill something else.
But AI actually is such
a different animal that,
I mean, Hawking said it
wasn't gonna be a bomb,
it wasn't gonna be a virus,
it wasn't gonna be, you know,
meteorite, it was gonna be AI

(01:02:19):
that wiped out our civilization.
And it's like weird saying that
and having being serious about it,
but that's what
everybody is writing about
and saying the smartest men in the world
are talking about the problem
that this is posing for all of us.
Another nod to state
laws for AI regulations
are still existing right now and survive.

(01:02:39):
So thank God.
So just putting a little more love
to how important those are.
AI is going to be to be continued
and we're gonna see how that unfolds.
As far as the streaming contraction,
I 100% agree and I feel like we're
feeling the brunt of that.
Ultimately, we were just
looking for a balanced system
that can survive.
You know, it's like, it's that safe

(01:03:01):
conservative approach
to an art form that takes risk.
And, you know, when
we just had network TV,
everybody thought,
well, that's the audience.
There's like 40 million people out there
and we gotta just try,
everybody's gonna have to,
and then with more networks come in,
if streaming come in,
like, how are we all gonna
just get a little
piece where the audiences
are gonna get smaller and

(01:03:21):
smaller for each network?
But what they learned was that
as we expanded more
content and more networks,
audiences got bigger, audiences grew,
continuing to grow exponentially.
There's global markets now.
Like, I can pitch a
show to a company today
that I can be pitching
to a person in London,
a person in LA, and a person in Mexico.

(01:03:44):
And we're putting
international projects together
that's gonna shoot in Spain
and it's gonna air all over the world.
That didn't exist,
you know, 15 years ago,
where the international
co-pros weren't really happening.
But there's not a lack of audience.
There's not a lack of
dollars out there for people.

(01:04:04):
There's an appetite
for more, better, newer,
constantly growing new content.
But again, they've gotta
be able to feel comfortable
adapting and changing to
the new needs of the audiences
and figuring out a way to make,
that they can make money.

(01:04:25):
That's okay to make money.
It's not okay to try to save it
when you're trying to grow an industry.
You gotta be risky, man.
Like, as an actor, you
guys have to take chances.
At a micro level, you
have to take chances.
Every time you're out there, you know,
giving a performance, you've
gotta be something out there
that people are gonna

(01:04:45):
look at that's gonna go,
wow, that was really fucking fresh.
And I've seen you do it.
I have to do the same thing when I write.
I can't just write something that's good.
It's gotta be fucking different.
It's gotta be bold.
That's the bar.
The bar got raised.
No, absolutely, because it's, you know,
don't be afraid to fall on your face.
Like, that's okay to do that.
To realize that the
stakes are not, you know,
as high as you feel like they are.

(01:05:07):
So, you know, we wanna
be fair with your time.
I mean, to be honest,
we could probably talk
for three hours.
We won't.
What is the one
question I can maybe answer
for you about anything?
I have a couple of just two quick things.
I think, as Econ
said, Friday Night Lights
a little bit about that,
because it's such an iconic show.
And then just a bit about, I don't know,
I love your philosophy on life.
Like, I really like

(01:05:27):
your approach to life.
I love your sort of spirituality.
I love that.
If you wanna talk about that, great.
If you don't, I mean,
that's totally okay too.
If we were gonna boil
it down to one question,
looking back at your career,
what do you think you did right,
and what did you think you did wrong?
Okay, good question.

(01:05:48):
I think what I did
right was I always allowed
the people around me to let them to be
as good as they could possibly be.
And to not feel like I
had to control the room,
even if I was running the room.
Like the Friday Night Lights writers,
Jason Cadams was so brilliant.
The way he hired John and I,
and he hired Bridget

(01:06:08):
Carpenter and Liz Heldens,
and Roland Jones and Ron Fitzgerald.
I'm gonna say all of them,
because they're all great.
David Hudgens and, did
I say Bridget Carpenter
and Liz Heldens?
Kerry Aaron.
I mean, it was such an
amazing staff of people.
And we all just really loved each other
and cared about each other
and listened to each other.
And I think that's
probably what I did right.
If anything, is I listened.

(01:06:29):
And also I just never quit.
I mean, never, ever, ever quit.
Good times, bad times.
You just don't ever let doubt seep in.
It will, but you can't let it, you know?
And the thing, that's
the thing I did right.
The thing I did wrong was I let Michael
Mann try to kill me.
And--
Oh my God, we didn't get to this story.

(01:06:51):
We gotta hear this story.
And I'm gonna part B that
next time you have me on.
I'll tell you the Michael Mann story.
I have like, I also
have Tony Scott stories
and I, that are amazing.
And Matthew McConaughey, I
did with Gage in the gold movie.
Yeah, gold.
There's too many great, great--

(01:07:11):
There's so much more.
I know, I know.
See, that's why I, like, we
gotta have a part two here.
We should genuinely do a part two.
We're getting on the
black list of spader.
I mean, imagine spader in
the black list is like nuts.
Oh yeah, it's too good.
I got some really crazy good times.
But I would like to
answer one quick question
that Ian said about my life.

(01:07:31):
It's like, I am sober, nine years.
And becoming sober, I
found a path to spirituality
that allowed me to have a life that I
could never imagine.
And that was to be
able to have like truly,
I thought one of my
biggest fears about getting sober
was that I was gonna
lose my creative spark.

(01:07:52):
And it was the absolute opposite.
I actually have
realized that I'd been writing
and working in the business with one arm
tied behind my back.
Luckily, it was a very
nice drunk, but I was a drunk.
And so the way I stay
sober is through prayer,
meditation, Tai Chi,
CrossFit, and veganism.

(01:08:15):
Wow, wow.
It's like, it's not any
one thing, it's all of them.
And I have a spiritual program of
recovery that I work in.
Some really, really, very,
very fine men that help me.
So yeah.
And it really shows. It really shows.
I mean, I love your philosophy on life.
You've helped me out a ton.

(01:08:36):
Likewise.
In my life.
And I just, I'm so continually impressed
by your sort of the grace
with which you walk through life,
your approach life.
It's really inspirational to me.
It really helps me a lot.
Because when I get caught up in my head
with all the bullshit
that swims around in there,
you've a real clear way

(01:08:57):
of cutting through it.
So I'm hugely grateful for that.
Well, you've always
been there for me, man.
You have, since the moment,
since the first time we met,
you've always been
there for me if it's been
coming up and doing
readings at my house of screenplays
or movies or whatever,
or just talking me through
these really difficult times.
Like, for example, when my daughter died

(01:09:18):
and you were there for me
and my house burned down,
you were there for me.
You know, and I appreciate you, man.
Yeah, you too, man.
I love you, love you a lot.
And we can, you know, if we do a part two
and you want to touch on
any of those things or not,
we can certainly, you know, we can.
I'm an open book, man.
I don't have anything to hide.
There's a lot to talk about.
Let's just plan on

(01:09:39):
trying to get together again.
I really, really like meeting you, Econ.
It was really great to talk to you.
This is amazing, but
that's a great place to end.
Thank you so much for your time.
Patrick Massad, everyone.
You're gonna have to
stay tuned for part two.
Thank you so much.

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Writer-Producer Patrick Massett talks Taking Risks, Tomb Raider, and Hanging with Val Kilmer | Ep 37

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Writer-Producer Patrick Massett talks Taking Risks, Tomb Raider, and Hanging with Val Kilmer | Ep 37