March 8, 2025 • 40 mins
Listen to Part II of Art Slut, Ann Wood's interview old pal and Austin Musician and Superstar, Gretchen Phillips of Two Nice Girls, Meat Joy and many other projects. Part 3 to follow.
Hear Songs from Meat Joy, Two Nice Girls and a solo performance with The Cotton Candy Breathing Knives after the 2016 election.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
So we fucked it.
Because it was there We're our floods
Welcome back to Art Sluts Radio.
This is episode 10 and part two of my interview with Gretchen Phillips.
(00:23):
In episode nine, we talked about the blue truck, which played a big part in the lives ofall the Art Slutz.
So let's continue on with the interview starting with Sugarball, the blue truck.
Well, when I listened to the episode, I believe you talked about driving all the way backto Missouri with no...
(00:45):
Thanks.
Would you do that now?
you know what?
I it's maybe I, I wouldn't have to, but I am, I'm kind of at this point in my life, I'vereally come full circle and I am like completely going on instinct and flow in, in a
(01:06):
really it's working and not that I can't stop and fix a problem or jump a hurdle, butthat's it's so yeah, maybe.
Okay, well, I can't believe it.
I love that you that you are a person who might still do that.
(01:26):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Okay.
So I think that that was maybe like a 1977 Dotson little blue truck, Kay Turner, KayTurner's sugar ball.
She sold it to me for 500, which I never paid for the 500 because before right, right,right away, although I have thought over and over about that wreck.
(01:54):
I'm pretty sure that a rich Austin was pulling a fast one.
It didn't work.
It hit her making a left because she was in a lane that was not a left lane.
And then she just came out.
Next up is the song that launched them to success in the 90s.
(02:14):
Self-titled daydream.
Two nice girls.
think you're doing and I know she threw me off because I don't actually think I didanything wrong.
I played that accident.
That's how I didn't have the truck any longer.
You had the because I blew my chance.
was 200 bucks.
think it was.
(02:35):
Yes, because it got wrecked.
interestingly enough, that is also the reason why I have credit, like I had to get at onepoint, I think I had to get a tire.
And so, you know, you do your I think it was Montgomery Ward's, you know, you go, OK, yousign up for a credit card, Montgomery Ward's, you get your tire, then you pay it off.
(02:59):
And I loved that.
Now I'm trying to remember where that truck, I think what happened was, so I went back andforth between Austin and Columbia, Missouri a couple times.
I think at one point it ended there and Pam stayed in Columbia after I left.
Like it was me and Sheila left.
(03:20):
I stayed, thank you, you gave me a place to sleep.
I don't think I was enough appreciative at the time, but.
So, and I got my first job because of Arts Lutz.
I went into the cafe, the, what was it called?
The Spanish breakfast place.
(03:44):
Las Menitas.
And I played that for, I can't remember the woman's name behind the counter and she got mea job.
But anyway, where was I headed with that?
Yeah.
So then I came back and I believe Pam stayed for some reason.
And I don't know if you guys connected when she was there or not.
Well, I loved listening to your episode and realizing how little I remember.
(04:08):
y'all had rich and varied lives here in Austin.
don't recall.
I mean, I just plain flat out don't, you know.
People come up to me and the produce section of the grocery store feels like ancient,ancient old people.
Gretchen, it's me.
And it's like, you know, it's somebody from when I was 20 and now we're in our sixties andI don't recognize that human.
(04:33):
I love their beautiful spirit and they're somehow strangely from dark hair to white hair.
I'm recognizable still, but I...
That's what people say, but I can't imagine.
do too.
I can't imagine.
Okay, but this is the continuation of the story of Sugarball.
(04:54):
Is that, so the company was called Nissan and then after World War II, they changed theirname to Datsun, but it was still Nissan.
And then around whenever it was, were like, people have forgotten our role in PearlHarbor.
We can go back to the name Nissan.
So Datsun and Nissan are the same.
I, a few years ago, during pandemic, got a blue Nissan truck, which is the same as theDatsun, same size.
(05:25):
Last year of the hard body.
Last year of the small.
It's really.
Yeah.
I know.
You I know so I have I've got sugar balls.
I've got sugar balls 20 20 year younger still 25 years old Progeny that I drive aroundblue Kay Turner loves this I love driving Kay Turner and and my blue truck is the little
(05:53):
peacock driving her around and
Pass my regards, I don't think I ever met her, but pass my regards to her and you can tellher the truck side continues.
Remove the bumper stickers, because I remember when I went home one time, my dad was like,Dutch, there's a lot of bumper stickers on your truck.
(06:15):
I didn't remove them.
mean, because she still owns it?
Does it still exist?
Okay.
no, you, you, sold you sugar ball with all of those.
And then I subsequently, once, once the $200 were exchanged and it in your hands, didn'tknow.
And you could drive it back and forth without brakes all the way to a few States away.
(06:37):
I don't remember Columbia, Missouri being around the corner from Austin, Texas, but okay.
10 or 12 hours, I think.
Yeah, with no breaks.
Well, know, Sheila and I, so you were supposed to come visit and then, you we wereexchanging letters and then you couldn't make it.
And then Sheila and I took our road trip to see you and her car, which was not licensed orregistered, completely overheated and died in Oklahoma.
(07:12):
And we pulled into a truck stop and we got a ride with some tweaked out.
truckers and that's how we got to Austin.
I mean, we literally climbed over the highway rail and walked into your neighborhood.
Jesus.
I know.
Nuts.
(07:36):
Here he comes, here comes Speed Racer He's a demon on wheels He's a demon and he's gonnabe a-chasing after someone
So you better look alive He's busy revving up the powerful Mach 5 And when the odds areagainst him and the dangerous work they do You bet your life Speedracers are gonna see you
(08:10):
through Go Speedracer, go Speedracer, go Speedracer, go!
He's popping speed as he guns his car around the track He's freaking out so hard it's likehe's never coming back Adventure's waiting just ahead Go Speed Racer Go Speed Racer Go
(08:37):
Speed Racer Go
(09:03):
He's popping speed as he guns his car around the track He's freaking out so hard it's likehe's never coming back Adventure's waiting just ahead Go Speed Racer Go Speed Racer Go
Speed Racer Go Go Speed Racer Go Speed Racer Go Speed Racer Go Racer Go
(09:39):
That was 2 Nice Girls cover of Speed Racer off of the album Like A Version.
I mean, I would love to talk about whatever you want, but I'm so fascinated by this timeperiod in the 80s.
It seems like different people that I've talked to in this, and it was kind of thepost-punk time period really, or not post-punk, it was the second wave, right?
(10:05):
That the nature of it being pre-internet,
pre, like where people were self-aware, you know what I mean?
I mean like there wasn't a camera on everybody all the time.
You know, we weren't.
Self-conscious then?
Because I don't think people are fucking self-aware.
That's true.
(10:25):
But it seemed like if you go and
by self doubt.
Okay.
Yeah.
If you go into any community, seems like in that time period, there was this incrediblejoining of all of these underground groups, know, the gay community, the at that time
trans community, you know, outsiders, artists, musicians, you know, people that didn'tfit, as you said, into the mainstream flow, we found each other.
(10:53):
And that seems to from people I've talked to been repeated in different communities.
Geographically?
Right.
yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, one of the main things I think about in terms of how lucky my musical career beganwhen it did is that there were far fewer things vying for your entertainment dollar any
(11:19):
given night of the week.
True.
So that makes an enormous difference in terms of seeking entertainment.
at night in a college town.
You know?
Like what are you going to do?
So to me, once VCRs and VHS, once you didn't have to go to the movie theater to seethings, that could become more privatized.
(11:50):
I just feel like more and more and more has become privatized.
And there are more...
things vying for a finite amount of entertainment dollars and attention span.
And so we had a need that I don't think can be understood for somebody who didn't livethrough it.
(12:10):
We had a need on a Tuesday night and then the same need was there on Wednesday night.
What are we going to do?
And then same day and then and next week and next year, what are we doing?
What's hey, do y'all know what's happening?
So
the act of physically making posters at the Kinkos running into the other bands makingposters, the act of putting them on poles where human beings walked through space, not set
(12:37):
on their asses in front of a computer and scrolled through things.
The way in which we had to be in a physical world because the wealth of this virtual worlddidn't exist for most people.
Right.
And so that's
Well, yeah, I mean, I don't know what was going on in Silicon Valley, but yes, certainlyit wasn't going on in Columbia and it wasn't going on in Austin.
(13:04):
We had to move through literal space, not virtual space, to meet with each other and seeeach other.
But that's all we'd ever known.
We weren't giving something up like, should I wish I could just watch streaming, but I gotto go all the way to the movie theater.
You know, that's not that wasn't our experience.
This was just what you did.
And so I also think that phone calls, I mean, do you remember when a phone call when youhad no idea who was on the other line?
(13:30):
Right, exactly.
But I remember when caller ID was invented, like before caller ID, if I was tripping and Iwish that I had a girl call me, but I also didn't know.
if the phone rings, it might be mom.
Right.
And I'm tripping.
Do I answer that phone?
Is it her?
Or is it my mom who I don't want to talk to right now because I'm tripping.
(13:53):
I mean, so I think that we had skills for moving through the world, interacting with humanbeings, not
knowing what was going to happen, we had skill set that I think is seriously atrophied asfar as social intercourse and, well, just civil social intercourse.
(14:16):
concerned.
I know, I mean, I'm such a huge fan of so many of the bands from that time period fromAustin, you know, in fact, I've got Gary Floyd's artwork on my wall from
what do you have?
What do you got?
got Gary floored right here.
What you got?
Yeah.
see.
Can you kind of see that one in the corner?
(14:38):
Oh, gorgeous.
I absolutely love it.
yeah, so and of course, the butthole surfers and all of that.
anyway, the immediate influence of all these different groups creatively, I just I thinkwhen did that happen previous to, you know, the late 60s?
You know, it seemed like it was a time period.
(15:00):
Maybe that's in my head.
I don't know.
That's why I'm kind of
bouncing off of you and seeing if you have that experience.
Yeah, because for example, I just watched a very interesting movie last night called CandyMountain made in 1987 by Robert Frank and hmm somebody Wurlitzer and it's it had David
(15:22):
Johansson, Tom Waits, Leon Redbone, Mary Margaret O'Hara, Rita McNeil.
It was very interesting Robert Frank movie.
who is known as a photographer who gave us the Americans, but he also worked on Pull MyDaisy, which is the beats.
(15:42):
That is the same kind of just incredible array of friendship networks.
The friendship networks that one can read about of the ex-pat lesbians in France, in Parisat the turn of the century.
I think people have been needing.
That's amazing stuff.
(16:03):
I wish I could remember the name of a book that I read that was pretty pretty concise.
I got it from the library though.
It wasn't when Paris was a woman, but that you could start there.
there were the salons, for example, that Gertrude Stein and Alice B.
Toklas had where every week because they had money, they would make a spread.
(16:27):
Their house was open.
And this is
all of these artists, modern artists, writers, and there were quite a number of, evenpre-World War I, quite a number of US and British women who were living in Paris and
(16:53):
getting together and doing their thing and lots of writers and...
These versions of friendship networks have always been super interesting to me, reallyinteresting to me, to think about who knew who and how they hung out.
Very famously, Henry James and Edith Wharton and their gang.
(17:19):
think there have always been friendship networks where folks are
inspiring each other, potentially sleeping together, potentially then having fightsbecause they fucked each other, potentially working together and it didn't work out,
certainly as well with design, early 20th century design and the women who were involvedin that and the men.
(17:44):
So I do think this has always happened and that we are always in a state of appreciationand rediscovery if we're the kind of people who are curious about that thing.
Next up is the song that launched them to success in the 90s from their self-titled debut,Two Nice Girls.
Here is I spent my last $10.
(18:23):
I was a young girl like normal girls do I looked to a woman's love to help get me throughI never needed any more than a feminine touch I hated the thought of kissing a man It
really was too much I did not drink, I did not smoke
(19:08):
I spent my last ten dollars on birth control and beer My life was so much simpler when Iwas sober and queer But the love of a strong hairy man has turned my head out of fear And
made me spend my last ten bucks on birth control and beer It was June of 1983 when MaryLou and I did part
(19:35):
She said she loved another dyke My god it broke my heart I was bitter and disillusioned tolose another girlfriend But Lester came to work and pop a store and decided to ease on in
Before that last heartbreak, well nothing made me more sick Than a hairy chest of cheese
(20:08):
I guess it was that old rum and coke I guess that I was dumb I spent my last ten dollarson birth control and beer My life was so much simpler when I was sober and queer But the
love of a strong hairy man has turned my head, I fear It made me spend my last ten buckson birth control and beer
(20:36):
For a woman to love a man she must also love taboos If a woman don't drink beside her manthen she will surely lose him As I sit in his head and row honky tonk and reflect upon my
past I think about those old girlfriends and why they did not last
(20:59):
For the certain thrills that lesbian love sends I cannot supply My plan for abortions fromthis worm gone awry And so I say to you my friends, without this man I'd die So listen to
my tale of woe and hang your head in cry I spent my last ten dollars on birth control andbeer
(21:26):
My life was so much simpler when I was sober and queer But the love of a strong hairy manhas turned my head, I fear And made me spend my last ten bucks on birth control and beer I
spent my last ten dollars on birth control and beer My life was so much simpler when I wassober and queer But the love
(21:55):
A strong hairy man has turned my head up here And made me spend my best of lucks on birthcontrol
(22:24):
Yeah.
Well, it, you know, letters too.
That was like writing letters was a thing.
God.
Such an amazing letter writer.
Just you'd sit down, have coffee, smoke a cigarette and, you know, write a letter.
Right.
Yes, absolutely.
I do.
(22:44):
I am sorry that's gone.
The cigarettes are the letters.
As a way of, I know that I quit writing as many letters when I quit smoking.
Because exactly what you're saying, sitting down, usually on the porch outside, screenedin porch because of the mosquitoes, with the, you know, cup of coffee and cigarettes to
(23:09):
write a letter to, absolutely.
Once I quit smoking, I did not write near as many letters.
Yeah, but thankfully we quit, right?
When did you quit?
I quit July 2nd, 1993.
I was, let's see, it was July also because it was my birthday, it my 40th birthday, so I'm63 now, whatever that is.
(23:36):
Okay.
But yeah, so, so of course.
it have been?
If it was your 40th, then it would have been 93.
No, no, no.
You were born in 60.
Are you saying you were born in 1960?
Oh, in 61?
Okay, so it would have been in 91, 2000.
(23:59):
Was it right before September 11?
I don't know.
was-
smoking your way through Attack on America?
I think I was done then.
I you were.
Yeah, I think I was done then.
But thank God I quit that.
Well, it didn't do Sheila any favors.
Well, know, Sheila, right.
(24:21):
Sheila smoked unfiltered.
I mean, I can't believe I smoked two packs a day, but, you know, to a certain extent lungcancer.
I mean, my dad died of it.
My brother died of it and Sheila died of it.
So I'm super aware of that, but part of it is genetic.
(24:42):
and then the pull of smoking is so, so hardcore.
mean,
Yeah, so, you know, it's just tragic really, but that was a tough, tough death for me, youknow.
How old was Sheila?
She was, let's see, she would have been, she died in 2005.
(25:09):
two years older than me.
I don't No, 1959.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She.
So yeah, she would have been in her 40s, you know, yeah, right.
You know, she lied about her age until almost right before her death because she ran awayfrom home when she was 14 because her home situation was so bad.
(25:35):
She moved to Minneapolis to be a hippie with the Bob Dylan crowd.
Wild.
I know it's a trip.
Here's a great song from Meat Joy called Slenderella.
(26:06):
Come and get it!
(27:17):
Is it Daddy?
Well, is it Mom?
Is she having no more fun?
No more fun.
No more fun.
No more fun.
(27:42):
Come on my daughter, be the perfect lady Little modern and sane baby Lie and cheat to getyour way You'll be married and rich someday Yes, yes, yes, she wants it, cause it's fun
And isn't she lucky, the beautiful one?
Beautiful one!
Not a fairy, play her picture, is it?
(28:05):
Watch it or cheat, but
Is it daddy?
Well, it's a mom!
Is she having no more fun?
No more fun!
No more fun!
(28:27):
No more fun!
She lives a life without conviction Deactivating is a contradiction Well, a bite of lifemakes her ill A slender on starvation blitz, She loves life, cause it's so fun Isn't she
(28:59):
lucky, the beautiful one?
Not a fairy for your picture, is it?
Why would she be angry and sick?
Want me to find a way to fix it?
And she's gone to sell that shitty reduces Is it daddy?
Is it mom?
Is she having all your fun?
(29:31):
So what is the topic that captured your interest the most right now?
Like where is your headspace at right now?
What's your...
It is around these currents.
It's really thinking about...
I meet with, and I think in February it'll be three years, that Meet Joy has a weeklySunday afternoon FaceTime.
(29:53):
And it's incredible.
And we were able to do the reissue, the book, the live tape, the shows, you know, one weekat a time getting together and doing this.
And then it's...
It's been just as much time since those things came out that we're still meeting and we'restill talking and we're still just jamming on ideas and what kind of stuff we've been
(30:22):
thinking about lately.
And I am reminded being reunited with those two precious men, Tim Metier and John Hawkes,formerly Perkins, that of a really deep
goals of mine regarding humanism that although I am, it's important to me, my sort oflesbian feminist identity, I'm a human and I want to be with humans.
(30:59):
Well, I want to want to be with humans.
Let's put it that way.
I don't always want to be with humans, but I really want to want to and I want to want tobe with men and I want to want to
be in this world.
And I think it's fine to separate for a finite amount of time in order to recharge mybatteries.
But I really have been thinking as far as the polarization that goes on all over theplace, which I think is not new for human beings, what we are experiencing.
(31:30):
It feels, in a way, like the times of peace are really the anomaly, not the times offriction in terms of human culture.
But as far as the only thing that I have any real agency regarding, that's just myattitude, my response to what's happening.
(31:54):
So I think about how if 10 of us were watching a house on fire, the house is burning andwe are each gonna have 10 different responses.
And there's not one of those responses that's just like really the truth.
you know, like how it really was.
And so trying to extrapolate from that regarding my general thoughts around justice, doesthat exist for everybody?
(32:22):
Truth, does that exist for everybody?
And then sort of narrowing it down to my preferences.
Well, what would I prefer morally?
So frankly, a lot of the usual Gretchen Phillips philosophizing with myself, and thentrying to be here
I'm in Austin as a snowbird from Ottawa, so from around Christmas till May 1.
(32:48):
I've decided to be borrowing this from some friends of mine, a music slut.
I'll do anything for music.
And I'm just jamming with folks.
I love it.
Hashtag music slut.
I'm jamming.
Okay, this next song is called Red State Blue State.
(33:10):
It's sort of my response to the most recent election and my trying to, it is, as I canfrequently write, quite a pedantic little number.
I'd like to thank Andy for the conversation.
I think I remember it.
Just sort of a response in terms of a sense of hopefulness rather than that any minute nowwe're all gonna fry.
(33:37):
Which I'm sure is pretty much how we feel.
you
(34:23):
In that place I'm gonna drown
I know
(34:45):
Get out of this trendy neighborhood
Mmm
(35:10):
Even though we disagree
(35:34):
I'm not gonna change
Get all angry, act all estranged
Loving is hard but what else can?
(35:55):
Or really take it out of you
(36:28):
In the past
(36:59):
Shitty for folks, it's true
(37:39):
you
(38:19):
you
That was Red State Blue State released in 2017.
Gretchen Phillips with the Cotton Candy Breathing Knives.
I'm just like, I don't want to break up anybody's home if you got a band already.
I'm not trying to break it up, but I certainly do feel like I want to really be jamming.
(38:39):
that's so great.
I love.
Because I've just gotten better on the guitar, frankly.
I would love to see you again because when I saw you at the Amy Ray tour, I thought youwere incredible.
I I think you're incredible anyway, but you your guitar playing was really front center onthat tour.
(39:00):
Yeah.
So that was that.
Yeah.
Yeah, well, I have been playing in the basement in Ottawa by myself to a variety pack ofalbums that I just, you know, listen to from all over the globe.
And I feel like my playing is getting better again in terms of just how do I tap in?
(39:20):
How do I not interrupt my flow?
What is the answer to the question, why is Gretchen Phillips so fascinating?
The answer is we're doing a third episode interviewing Gretchen Phillips.
Stay tuned.
Thanks for listening to Art Slutz Radio.
(39:42):
Hey, if you identify with the Artslabs, explore our herstory at artslabs.net.
That's A-R-T-S-L-U-T-S dot net.
And purchase downloads of our music where you stream music.
All contributions and purchases will go to support Planned Parenthood.
(40:04):
Currently,
including a
a total ban.
(40:25):
Leave you, baby
It's just my music baby and I gotta do the show
So we fucked it.
Because it was there We're our floods
Welcome back to Art Sluts Radio.
This is episode 10 and part two of my interview with Gretchen Phillips.
(00:23):
In episode nine, we talked about the blue truck, which played a big part in the lives ofall the Art Slutz.
So let's continue on with the interview starting with Sugarball, the blue truck.
Well, when I listened to the episode, I believe you talked about driving all the way backto Missouri with no...
(00:45):
Thanks.
Would you do that now?
you know what?
I it's maybe I, I wouldn't have to, but I am, I'm kind of at this point in my life, I'vereally come full circle and I am like completely going on instinct and flow in, in a
(01:06):
really it's working and not that I can't stop and fix a problem or jump a hurdle, butthat's it's so yeah, maybe.
Okay, well, I can't believe it.
I love that you that you are a person who might still do that.
(01:26):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Okay.
So I think that that was maybe like a 1977 Dotson little blue truck, Kay Turner, KayTurner's sugar ball.
She sold it to me for 500, which I never paid for the 500 because before right, right,right away, although I have thought over and over about that wreck.
(01:54):
I'm pretty sure that a rich Austin was pulling a fast one.
It didn't work.
It hit her making a left because she was in a lane that was not a left lane.
And then she just came out.
Next up is the song that launched them to success in the 90s.
(02:14):
Self-titled daydream.
Two nice girls.
think you're doing and I know she threw me off because I don't actually think I didanything wrong.
I played that accident.
That's how I didn't have the truck any longer.
You had the because I blew my chance.
was 200 bucks.
think it was.
(02:35):
Yes, because it got wrecked.
interestingly enough, that is also the reason why I have credit, like I had to get at onepoint, I think I had to get a tire.
And so, you know, you do your I think it was Montgomery Ward's, you know, you go, OK, yousign up for a credit card, Montgomery Ward's, you get your tire, then you pay it off.
(02:59):
And I loved that.
Now I'm trying to remember where that truck, I think what happened was, so I went back andforth between Austin and Columbia, Missouri a couple times.
I think at one point it ended there and Pam stayed in Columbia after I left.
Like it was me and Sheila left.
(03:20):
I stayed, thank you, you gave me a place to sleep.
I don't think I was enough appreciative at the time, but.
So, and I got my first job because of Arts Lutz.
I went into the cafe, the, what was it called?
The Spanish breakfast place.
(03:44):
Las Menitas.
And I played that for, I can't remember the woman's name behind the counter and she got mea job.
But anyway, where was I headed with that?
Yeah.
So then I came back and I believe Pam stayed for some reason.
And I don't know if you guys connected when she was there or not.
Well, I loved listening to your episode and realizing how little I remember.
(04:08):
y'all had rich and varied lives here in Austin.
don't recall.
I mean, I just plain flat out don't, you know.
People come up to me and the produce section of the grocery store feels like ancient,ancient old people.
Gretchen, it's me.
And it's like, you know, it's somebody from when I was 20 and now we're in our sixties andI don't recognize that human.
(04:33):
I love their beautiful spirit and they're somehow strangely from dark hair to white hair.
I'm recognizable still, but I...
That's what people say, but I can't imagine.
do too.
I can't imagine.
Okay, but this is the continuation of the story of Sugarball.
(04:54):
Is that, so the company was called Nissan and then after World War II, they changed theirname to Datsun, but it was still Nissan.
And then around whenever it was, were like, people have forgotten our role in PearlHarbor.
We can go back to the name Nissan.
So Datsun and Nissan are the same.
I, a few years ago, during pandemic, got a blue Nissan truck, which is the same as theDatsun, same size.
(05:25):
Last year of the hard body.
Last year of the small.
It's really.
Yeah.
I know.
You I know so I have I've got sugar balls.
I've got sugar balls 20 20 year younger still 25 years old Progeny that I drive aroundblue Kay Turner loves this I love driving Kay Turner and and my blue truck is the little
(05:53):
peacock driving her around and
Pass my regards, I don't think I ever met her, but pass my regards to her and you can tellher the truck side continues.
Remove the bumper stickers, because I remember when I went home one time, my dad was like,Dutch, there's a lot of bumper stickers on your truck.
(06:15):
I didn't remove them.
mean, because she still owns it?
Does it still exist?
Okay.
no, you, you, sold you sugar ball with all of those.
And then I subsequently, once, once the $200 were exchanged and it in your hands, didn'tknow.
And you could drive it back and forth without brakes all the way to a few States away.
(06:37):
I don't remember Columbia, Missouri being around the corner from Austin, Texas, but okay.
10 or 12 hours, I think.
Yeah, with no breaks.
Well, know, Sheila and I, so you were supposed to come visit and then, you we wereexchanging letters and then you couldn't make it.
And then Sheila and I took our road trip to see you and her car, which was not licensed orregistered, completely overheated and died in Oklahoma.
(07:12):
And we pulled into a truck stop and we got a ride with some tweaked out.
truckers and that's how we got to Austin.
I mean, we literally climbed over the highway rail and walked into your neighborhood.
Jesus.
I know.
Nuts.
(07:36):
Here he comes, here comes Speed Racer He's a demon on wheels He's a demon and he's gonnabe a-chasing after someone
So you better look alive He's busy revving up the powerful Mach 5 And when the odds areagainst him and the dangerous work they do You bet your life Speedracers are gonna see you
(08:10):
through Go Speedracer, go Speedracer, go Speedracer, go!
He's popping speed as he guns his car around the track He's freaking out so hard it's likehe's never coming back Adventure's waiting just ahead Go Speed Racer Go Speed Racer Go
(08:37):
Speed Racer Go
(09:03):
He's popping speed as he guns his car around the track He's freaking out so hard it's likehe's never coming back Adventure's waiting just ahead Go Speed Racer Go Speed Racer Go
Speed Racer Go Go Speed Racer Go Speed Racer Go Speed Racer Go Racer Go
(09:39):
That was 2 Nice Girls cover of Speed Racer off of the album Like A Version.
I mean, I would love to talk about whatever you want, but I'm so fascinated by this timeperiod in the 80s.
It seems like different people that I've talked to in this, and it was kind of thepost-punk time period really, or not post-punk, it was the second wave, right?
(10:05):
That the nature of it being pre-internet,
pre, like where people were self-aware, you know what I mean?
I mean like there wasn't a camera on everybody all the time.
You know, we weren't.
Self-conscious then?
Because I don't think people are fucking self-aware.
That's true.
(10:25):
But it seemed like if you go and
by self doubt.
Okay.
Yeah.
If you go into any community, seems like in that time period, there was this incrediblejoining of all of these underground groups, know, the gay community, the at that time
trans community, you know, outsiders, artists, musicians, you know, people that didn'tfit, as you said, into the mainstream flow, we found each other.
(10:53):
And that seems to from people I've talked to been repeated in different communities.
Geographically?
Right.
yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, one of the main things I think about in terms of how lucky my musical career beganwhen it did is that there were far fewer things vying for your entertainment dollar any
(11:19):
given night of the week.
True.
So that makes an enormous difference in terms of seeking entertainment.
at night in a college town.
You know?
Like what are you going to do?
So to me, once VCRs and VHS, once you didn't have to go to the movie theater to seethings, that could become more privatized.
(11:50):
I just feel like more and more and more has become privatized.
And there are more...
things vying for a finite amount of entertainment dollars and attention span.
And so we had a need that I don't think can be understood for somebody who didn't livethrough it.
(12:10):
We had a need on a Tuesday night and then the same need was there on Wednesday night.
What are we going to do?
And then same day and then and next week and next year, what are we doing?
What's hey, do y'all know what's happening?
So
the act of physically making posters at the Kinkos running into the other bands makingposters, the act of putting them on poles where human beings walked through space, not set
(12:37):
on their asses in front of a computer and scrolled through things.
The way in which we had to be in a physical world because the wealth of this virtual worlddidn't exist for most people.
Right.
And so that's
Well, yeah, I mean, I don't know what was going on in Silicon Valley, but yes, certainlyit wasn't going on in Columbia and it wasn't going on in Austin.
(13:04):
We had to move through literal space, not virtual space, to meet with each other and seeeach other.
But that's all we'd ever known.
We weren't giving something up like, should I wish I could just watch streaming, but I gotto go all the way to the movie theater.
You know, that's not that wasn't our experience.
This was just what you did.
And so I also think that phone calls, I mean, do you remember when a phone call when youhad no idea who was on the other line?
(13:30):
Right, exactly.
But I remember when caller ID was invented, like before caller ID, if I was tripping and Iwish that I had a girl call me, but I also didn't know.
if the phone rings, it might be mom.
Right.
And I'm tripping.
Do I answer that phone?
Is it her?
Or is it my mom who I don't want to talk to right now because I'm tripping.
(13:53):
I mean, so I think that we had skills for moving through the world, interacting with humanbeings, not
knowing what was going to happen, we had skill set that I think is seriously atrophied asfar as social intercourse and, well, just civil social intercourse.
(14:16):
concerned.
I know, I mean, I'm such a huge fan of so many of the bands from that time period fromAustin, you know, in fact, I've got Gary Floyd's artwork on my wall from
what do you have?
What do you got?
got Gary floored right here.
What you got?
Yeah.
see.
Can you kind of see that one in the corner?
(14:38):
Oh, gorgeous.
I absolutely love it.
yeah, so and of course, the butthole surfers and all of that.
anyway, the immediate influence of all these different groups creatively, I just I thinkwhen did that happen previous to, you know, the late 60s?
You know, it seemed like it was a time period.
(15:00):
Maybe that's in my head.
I don't know.
That's why I'm kind of
bouncing off of you and seeing if you have that experience.
Yeah, because for example, I just watched a very interesting movie last night called CandyMountain made in 1987 by Robert Frank and hmm somebody Wurlitzer and it's it had David
(15:22):
Johansson, Tom Waits, Leon Redbone, Mary Margaret O'Hara, Rita McNeil.
It was very interesting Robert Frank movie.
who is known as a photographer who gave us the Americans, but he also worked on Pull MyDaisy, which is the beats.
(15:42):
That is the same kind of just incredible array of friendship networks.
The friendship networks that one can read about of the ex-pat lesbians in France, in Parisat the turn of the century.
I think people have been needing.
That's amazing stuff.
(16:03):
I wish I could remember the name of a book that I read that was pretty pretty concise.
I got it from the library though.
It wasn't when Paris was a woman, but that you could start there.
there were the salons, for example, that Gertrude Stein and Alice B.
Toklas had where every week because they had money, they would make a spread.
(16:27):
Their house was open.
And this is
all of these artists, modern artists, writers, and there were quite a number of, evenpre-World War I, quite a number of US and British women who were living in Paris and
(16:53):
getting together and doing their thing and lots of writers and...
These versions of friendship networks have always been super interesting to me, reallyinteresting to me, to think about who knew who and how they hung out.
Very famously, Henry James and Edith Wharton and their gang.
(17:19):
think there have always been friendship networks where folks are
inspiring each other, potentially sleeping together, potentially then having fightsbecause they fucked each other, potentially working together and it didn't work out,
certainly as well with design, early 20th century design and the women who were involvedin that and the men.
(17:44):
So I do think this has always happened and that we are always in a state of appreciationand rediscovery if we're the kind of people who are curious about that thing.
Next up is the song that launched them to success in the 90s from their self-titled debut,Two Nice Girls.
Here is I spent my last $10.
(18:23):
I was a young girl like normal girls do I looked to a woman's love to help get me throughI never needed any more than a feminine touch I hated the thought of kissing a man It
really was too much I did not drink, I did not smoke
(19:08):
I spent my last ten dollars on birth control and beer My life was so much simpler when Iwas sober and queer But the love of a strong hairy man has turned my head out of fear And
made me spend my last ten bucks on birth control and beer It was June of 1983 when MaryLou and I did part
(19:35):
She said she loved another dyke My god it broke my heart I was bitter and disillusioned tolose another girlfriend But Lester came to work and pop a store and decided to ease on in
Before that last heartbreak, well nothing made me more sick Than a hairy chest of cheese
(20:08):
I guess it was that old rum and coke I guess that I was dumb I spent my last ten dollarson birth control and beer My life was so much simpler when I was sober and queer But the
love of a strong hairy man has turned my head, I fear It made me spend my last ten buckson birth control and beer
(20:36):
For a woman to love a man she must also love taboos If a woman don't drink beside her manthen she will surely lose him As I sit in his head and row honky tonk and reflect upon my
past I think about those old girlfriends and why they did not last
(20:59):
For the certain thrills that lesbian love sends I cannot supply My plan for abortions fromthis worm gone awry And so I say to you my friends, without this man I'd die So listen to
my tale of woe and hang your head in cry I spent my last ten dollars on birth control andbeer
(21:26):
My life was so much simpler when I was sober and queer But the love of a strong hairy manhas turned my head, I fear And made me spend my last ten bucks on birth control and beer I
spent my last ten dollars on birth control and beer My life was so much simpler when I wassober and queer But the love
(21:55):
A strong hairy man has turned my head up here And made me spend my best of lucks on birthcontrol
(22:24):
Yeah.
Well, it, you know, letters too.
That was like writing letters was a thing.
God.
Such an amazing letter writer.
Just you'd sit down, have coffee, smoke a cigarette and, you know, write a letter.
Right.
Yes, absolutely.
I do.
(22:44):
I am sorry that's gone.
The cigarettes are the letters.
As a way of, I know that I quit writing as many letters when I quit smoking.
Because exactly what you're saying, sitting down, usually on the porch outside, screenedin porch because of the mosquitoes, with the, you know, cup of coffee and cigarettes to
(23:09):
write a letter to, absolutely.
Once I quit smoking, I did not write near as many letters.
Yeah, but thankfully we quit, right?
When did you quit?
I quit July 2nd, 1993.
I was, let's see, it was July also because it was my birthday, it my 40th birthday, so I'm63 now, whatever that is.
(23:36):
Okay.
But yeah, so, so of course.
it have been?
If it was your 40th, then it would have been 93.
No, no, no.
You were born in 60.
Are you saying you were born in 1960?
Oh, in 61?
Okay, so it would have been in 91, 2000.
(23:59):
Was it right before September 11?
I don't know.
was-
smoking your way through Attack on America?
I think I was done then.
I you were.
Yeah, I think I was done then.
But thank God I quit that.
Well, it didn't do Sheila any favors.
Well, know, Sheila, right.
(24:21):
Sheila smoked unfiltered.
I mean, I can't believe I smoked two packs a day, but, you know, to a certain extent lungcancer.
I mean, my dad died of it.
My brother died of it and Sheila died of it.
So I'm super aware of that, but part of it is genetic.
(24:42):
and then the pull of smoking is so, so hardcore.
mean,
Yeah, so, you know, it's just tragic really, but that was a tough, tough death for me, youknow.
How old was Sheila?
She was, let's see, she would have been, she died in 2005.
(25:09):
two years older than me.
I don't No, 1959.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She.
So yeah, she would have been in her 40s, you know, yeah, right.
You know, she lied about her age until almost right before her death because she ran awayfrom home when she was 14 because her home situation was so bad.
(25:35):
She moved to Minneapolis to be a hippie with the Bob Dylan crowd.
Wild.
I know it's a trip.
Here's a great song from Meat Joy called Slenderella.
(26:06):
Come and get it!
(27:17):
Is it Daddy?
Well, is it Mom?
Is she having no more fun?
No more fun.
No more fun.
No more fun.
(27:42):
Come on my daughter, be the perfect lady Little modern and sane baby Lie and cheat to getyour way You'll be married and rich someday Yes, yes, yes, she wants it, cause it's fun
And isn't she lucky, the beautiful one?
Beautiful one!
Not a fairy, play her picture, is it?
(28:05):
Watch it or cheat, but
Is it daddy?
Well, it's a mom!
Is she having no more fun?
No more fun!
No more fun!
(28:27):
No more fun!
She lives a life without conviction Deactivating is a contradiction Well, a bite of lifemakes her ill A slender on starvation blitz, She loves life, cause it's so fun Isn't she
(28:59):
lucky, the beautiful one?
Not a fairy for your picture, is it?
Why would she be angry and sick?
Want me to find a way to fix it?
And she's gone to sell that shitty reduces Is it daddy?
Is it mom?
Is she having all your fun?
(29:31):
So what is the topic that captured your interest the most right now?
Like where is your headspace at right now?
What's your...
It is around these currents.
It's really thinking about...
I meet with, and I think in February it'll be three years, that Meet Joy has a weeklySunday afternoon FaceTime.
(29:53):
And it's incredible.
And we were able to do the reissue, the book, the live tape, the shows, you know, one weekat a time getting together and doing this.
And then it's...
It's been just as much time since those things came out that we're still meeting and we'restill talking and we're still just jamming on ideas and what kind of stuff we've been
(30:22):
thinking about lately.
And I am reminded being reunited with those two precious men, Tim Metier and John Hawkes,formerly Perkins, that of a really deep
goals of mine regarding humanism that although I am, it's important to me, my sort oflesbian feminist identity, I'm a human and I want to be with humans.
(30:59):
Well, I want to want to be with humans.
Let's put it that way.
I don't always want to be with humans, but I really want to want to and I want to want tobe with men and I want to want to
be in this world.
And I think it's fine to separate for a finite amount of time in order to recharge mybatteries.
But I really have been thinking as far as the polarization that goes on all over theplace, which I think is not new for human beings, what we are experiencing.
(31:30):
It feels, in a way, like the times of peace are really the anomaly, not the times offriction in terms of human culture.
But as far as the only thing that I have any real agency regarding, that's just myattitude, my response to what's happening.
(31:54):
So I think about how if 10 of us were watching a house on fire, the house is burning andwe are each gonna have 10 different responses.
And there's not one of those responses that's just like really the truth.
you know, like how it really was.
And so trying to extrapolate from that regarding my general thoughts around justice, doesthat exist for everybody?
(32:22):
Truth, does that exist for everybody?
And then sort of narrowing it down to my preferences.
Well, what would I prefer morally?
So frankly, a lot of the usual Gretchen Phillips philosophizing with myself, and thentrying to be here
I'm in Austin as a snowbird from Ottawa, so from around Christmas till May 1.
(32:48):
I've decided to be borrowing this from some friends of mine, a music slut.
I'll do anything for music.
And I'm just jamming with folks.
I love it.
Hashtag music slut.
I'm jamming.
Okay, this next song is called Red State Blue State.
(33:10):
It's sort of my response to the most recent election and my trying to, it is, as I canfrequently write, quite a pedantic little number.
I'd like to thank Andy for the conversation.
I think I remember it.
Just sort of a response in terms of a sense of hopefulness rather than that any minute nowwe're all gonna fry.
(33:37):
Which I'm sure is pretty much how we feel.
you
(34:23):
In that place I'm gonna drown
I know
(34:45):
Get out of this trendy neighborhood
Mmm
(35:10):
Even though we disagree
(35:34):
I'm not gonna change
Get all angry, act all estranged
Loving is hard but what else can?
(35:55):
Or really take it out of you
(36:28):
In the past
(36:59):
Shitty for folks, it's true
(37:39):
you
(38:19):
you
That was Red State Blue State released in 2017.
Gretchen Phillips with the Cotton Candy Breathing Knives.
I'm just like, I don't want to break up anybody's home if you got a band already.
I'm not trying to break it up, but I certainly do feel like I want to really be jamming.
(38:39):
that's so great.
I love.
Because I've just gotten better on the guitar, frankly.
I would love to see you again because when I saw you at the Amy Ray tour, I thought youwere incredible.
I I think you're incredible anyway, but you your guitar playing was really front center onthat tour.
(39:00):
Yeah.
So that was that.
Yeah.
Yeah, well, I have been playing in the basement in Ottawa by myself to a variety pack ofalbums that I just, you know, listen to from all over the globe.
And I feel like my playing is getting better again in terms of just how do I tap in?
(39:20):
How do I not interrupt my flow?
What is the answer to the question, why is Gretchen Phillips so fascinating?
The answer is we're doing a third episode interviewing Gretchen Phillips.
Stay tuned.
Thanks for listening to Art Slutz Radio.
(39:42):
Hey, if you identify with the Artslabs, explore our herstory at artslabs.net.
That's A-R-T-S-L-U-T-S dot net.
And purchase downloads of our music where you stream music.
All contributions and purchases will go to support Planned Parenthood.
(40:04):
Currently,
including a
a total ban.
(40:25):
Leave you, baby
It's just my music baby and I gotta do the show
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