June 24, 2024 • 20 mins
AREA Executive Director Mark Sage chats with AREA Founder Christine Perey to congratulate her on being named to Augmented World Expo's (AWE)'s inaugural XR Hall of Fame class.
The XR Hall of Fame is a new institution dedicated to honoring the pioneers whose monumental contributions have shaped and propelled the extended reality (XR) industry forward.
More on AWE's XR Hall of Fame: https://lavnch.com/lavnchcode/awe-announces-xr-hall-of-fame-inductees/
More on Christine Perey: https://www.awexr.com/hall-of-fame/2-christine-perey
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Hi everybody. My name is Mark Sage.I'm the executive director of the AREA,
Augmented Reality for Enterprise Alliance.
And it's an honor and a pleasureto be speaking with a friend and
someone I look up to hugely inthe industry. Christine Perey,
independent analyst and consultant,
as well as a million other thingsyou do for the XR ecosystem.
(00:24):
And Christine, quite rightly,
you are one of theinaugural A WE Hall of Fame
recipients. So firstly,congratulations. Thank you. Amazing.
So please tell me a little bit aboutyour background and what led you do you
think becoming a inaugurala WE Hall of Famer?
Gosh, thanks, Mark. Itwas a surprise for me too,
(00:48):
as a matter of fact,
I guess I don't feel like I'm old,
but being an OG is an honorand I really appreciate the
opportunity. Why do I think,well, I'll set a little context.
I'm not going to go back intoancient history before I got into
(01:08):
ar,
but it was in 2006 thatI was part of a think
tank.
It was organized on behalf ofEuropean Research Institutes who
were going to respond to the EuropeanCommission's call for topics.
And there were probably 40 us and we
(01:30):
brainstormed for two days. And I had
amazing experience of beingon a team that invented to
ourselves the possibilityof augmented reality. We had
some materials,
you know how in think tanks you haveall these little pieces of paper,
(01:50):
different sticky colors, and in our case,
we had pipe cleaners and I made a pair of
glasses and tied on somethingwith pipe cleaners and
had this,
the use case was that you weretraveling and were passing people
that you might know oryou might be related to
(02:13):
closely,
but you didn't recognize them oryou didn't have any context. So the
use case was a socialaugmented reality setting.
However, in my past lives,
and even in 2006,
my focus is more on productivity.
It's more on getting stuff done.
(02:36):
I think that's one of thethings that I personally
try to achieve,
but I also want to provide support totechnology so the companies can be more
efficient,
employees can be more productiveand have less risk and so forth.
So it was very quickly thatthis project and this idea
(02:59):
became a passion for me. So I startedto provide consulting services.
But what was interestingin that time in 2006 is
there were still someremnants of virtual reality.
There were, people stillremembered a decade before
what had happened,
(03:21):
but there was no one reallytalking or using or really
selling augmented reality materials.
It was entirely a research domain,
mostly in big universitiesbut also in military.
So really at that time,
(03:42):
it was still quite evidentthat the military had their hands all over augmented
reality for aviation pilots,
but also of course forother disciplines I would
say.
And then there were people who had workedin these areas and augmented reality
who could imagine
(04:06):
enterprise use cases. Andthen not very long afterwards,
there were a fewcompanies, Mattia was one,
a notable one thatemerged and provided these
platforms for companiesto be able to create
experiences on their own. And I think
(04:28):
I did not code, I didn't participatein any of those companies,
but I was really kind of,
I think of myself as part of the matrix,
the glue sort of tounderstand what a one company
was doing differentlyfrom another company. And
I enjoyed being at that nexus point,
(04:51):
and it was one of the placesthat I go to every year
if I can,
is the international symposium onmixed and augmented reality. So
that's called imar. And this is wherethe research community gets together.
It's not commercial or so forth,
although there are commercial researchersthat are there. A lot of Nokia people,
(05:14):
there were Microsoft people inthose days in the early days.
So I attended Isma from probably 2006
until this year I'm going tobe going to that event. And
what happened to me a few years inis I was organizing the birds of a
(05:34):
feather.
And there was one ofthese boff sessions was
about enterprise and industrial use cases,
and it was standing room only.
There was a line at the doorand Mark that was for me,
the pivotal moment when Idecided that I was no longer
interested in consumer use cases andthat this technology would really be
(06:00):
for enterprises for productivity,
risk management and so forth.
So it was in 2010 that this kind of
surprise and very
fundamental,
I guess for me a moment.But that's only been 14 years.
That's not really that law. It's not,
(06:25):
well,
what followed in the years thatcame is I started talking with Paul
Davies at Boeing and other people who were
in big companies manufacturingvery complex products.
And then we decided tocollaborate and create the
(06:46):
area, the AR for Enterprise Alliance.
But I think one of my passions since
then is perhaps one of the reasons
that I'm part of thisinaugural group is I had
learned before and othertechnologies that I'd been
(07:07):
involved with that interoperabilitycould lead to innovation
and that
I was too late for that in thepast in the industries that
I'd worked in. And I thought,I'll get the jump on this.
And I wanted to enhance or at least
(07:29):
explain to people why interoperabilitywould be good and how to
approach this so that wedidn't end up with just a few
technology silos.
So that was much too early afraid.
Well,
just jumping back very quickly to thearea that you founded as well and lucky
(07:51):
enough to include me in that aftera couple of years, just real quick,
what was your vision of that when youfirst started and you and Paul and some of
the other companies?
Just quickly on that and then I'd loveto talk a little bit more about your
amazing work in the Sandersand interoperability space.
Yeah,
I was trying to pitchstandardization to these large
(08:15):
enterprises and they saidsomething to me that was
similar, that there's an echothat happened just in 2024,
I'll get to that in aminute. They said, Christine,
we appreciate your enthusiasm,but we have other problems.
We have much bigger fishand much more complex
(08:38):
issues to just get the technology to work.
And this for them was,
that's the crux,
was getting the contentthat they have into AR
experiences.
It was so early in their digitaltransformation that they didn't
(09:01):
have the assets.
And when we launched wasthe year that Apple acquired
Mateo.
And that was also a wakeup call for everyone to
understand that if you rely onone vendor and then something
happens out of your control,
(09:23):
you will be left kindof with some antiquated
code.
And that it already happenedbefore the matayo acquisition.
So there was concern amongthe large enterprises about
the future of these technologiesand how to integrate them
(09:44):
into their existing IT systemsway before they had done the
digital transformation.
So I think that was probablyone of the most important goals.
And one of the things that I bondedwith them was also the desire and the
need for research,
applied research thatcould be conducted in a
(10:07):
setting that resembled asclose as possible to the real
world.
And this is probably now we are on our
14th research project for the area.
We've released many of thoseprojects to the ecosystem.
We are sort of like a thinktank doing research on
(10:30):
projects that can't be doneby one company internally and
that are collaborativelyfunded and supported and
we decide on the topics asa group in these ballots in
very democratic way. So I think
that was a good anchorpoint for us. Of course,
(10:53):
we've developed many othercommittees, the statement of needs,
the requirements database,
the committees about ofcourse safety and security,
human factors.
So these are first order
problems. They're not back burner issues.
(11:18):
That's amazing. And thank you forthe kind of work on the research,
like you said, what it's reallyimportant, they're very practical, usable,
there's always something in therethat can be reused numerous times by
the area members.
I think the research projects,they've evolved of course.
And one of the things thatwe've really done well,
(11:43):
I'm very pleased with and thank youMark, for your support on all this,
is creating a tool,
trying to get eachproject to provide us the
area members with atool. It might be code,
it might be a spreadsheet,
a decision support tool.
(12:07):
These then can be adapted as you said,
or they can be compared with the toolsthat have been built internally. Now,
these are not intended to be toolsthat compete with any of our members
products or services.
They are financial tools like the
return on investmentcalculator or as I said,
(12:29):
decision support tools and thingsthat allow people to examine their own
procedures to improve them.
Yeah. Wow. Thank you. Socoming on to the last question,
and I had another look,
and I quite often have a look at yourLinkedIn profile and it still amazes at me
the amount of, and I'm noteven sure is up to date,
(12:51):
but the standards andinteroperability and research
organizations that you support.
And I think one of the reasons for thisaward is reflection of the amount of
time and effort anddrive you put into them.
So globally recognized for allof that outstanding work in
standards and interoperability inthe immersive technology space.
(13:12):
But where do you think we are andwhat needs to happen for that to
become, to drive innovation,as you mentioned earlier.
Right?
So thanks for bringing that up andturning the conversation to this topic.
I think to me,
we are still in the dark ages.
(13:37):
There's still a strongattachment to technology silos.
And I believe that that ishindering the adoption because the
large enterprises,
they don't want to be exposedto just one vendor for all
of their technologystack. So we're still not
(14:02):
running, we're still crawling
in this domain. I think that
what we are seeing now,
and certainly I saw it at themost recent area member meeting,
and I see it elsewhere when Iwork with large industry clients
and partners,
(14:25):
that in order for augmented reality to be
integrated into the existing IT systems,
there have to be APIs andthere have to be components,
there has to be a modular architecture.
And while numerous modulararchitectures have been proposed,
(14:46):
and I've been involved in two of,well, not even three of those,
there are not enough providers who embrace
that philosophy.
I think the only way we're going tomake long-term impact is when the
customer segment, in otherwords, the oil and gas companies,
(15:10):
manufacturing companies,aviation, automotive,
those industries ask for or require
certain standards to beimplemented in their solutions.
So that's really what I work on most
actively now is working on
(15:32):
the messaging and how toconvince the customer segment
that they are doing themselvesa disservice if they
don't ask for interoperability,
don't require it even.
I'm very passionate about thestandards that I see developing
(15:53):
in the Kronos group, theOpen Geospatial Consortium,
the IEE, Etsy,
the European TelecommunicationsSpace Standards Agency.
There are many great teams working out
there. I'm often just a bystander.
(16:14):
I do lead three committeesor working groups,
and that is a way for me to contribute.
I can't write these codes,
I can't do the engineering.
But one of the stepsthat we're all working,
I think towards more actively now in 2024,
(16:37):
is demonstrating whatinteroperability can provide
without
tangible demonstrations ofwhat standards adoption could
bring.The large enterprises won't be convinced.
So a lot of my effortright now is on applied
demonstrations, videosthat show demonstrations.
(17:00):
I also want to say that
augmented reality isnever going to achieve
all that we hope it toachieve if the human factors
are not resolved.
And that's not an areathat I see standardization
being a big contributor in.
(17:22):
I think that is a trial and error.
It's a agreement among users
about how they want to havethis information provided.
So that's a big factor.
And having hardware thatsupports the types of interaction
that the users need. Now,
(17:44):
interoperability in the hardware domain,
we have OpenXR showing a lot of promise.
We're not finished withthat particular standard.
That still needs a lot of work.
I think it's important for people tounderstand that standardization isn't a
one-time fix. It is somethingthat is a continuous process.
(18:06):
And as we do demonstrations, welearn where the standards are weak,
where they need to be improved.It's an iterative process,
mark. It's just nevergoing to be finished.
It's a journey rather than a destination.
Exactly. Exactly. No,
I think there's just a lot of
(18:29):
potential, but a lack of attention.
And then what I said about innovationis that when you have interoperability,
then companies can specialize.
They don't have to provide the entiretechnology stack, all the hardware,
all of the software fordelivering and for authoring
(18:50):
experiences.
They can begin to focus on their own
areas of expertise if it's rendering or
seen recognition, object segmentation,
all of these things have to be excellent,
(19:12):
not just average.
And I think companies then can innovateby bringing the best parts of all this
stuff, but they have a infrastructureor model to join them all.
And that's obviously where interoperativemakes is one of the big plays,
is allowing companies to pick the best,bring it together in a controlled way.
(19:32):
Right.
Awesome. Christine, thank you everso much. Congratulations on this.
Thank you for all the workyou do, not only for the area,
but all of those other organizations.
I know they're all appreciative andit's one thing for clear with all
your hard work in pushing. Wewill get there. We will get there.
(19:52):
I hope so. Mark, it'sjourney like you said.
And I think that it's veryexciting to see that a WE is
recognizing people,
other people much more senior thanmyself who have contributed to this
before. And I guess we'reall still involved. Many,
(20:13):
many people are still involved.
Okay, Christine, thank verymuch and congratulations. Thank.
You.
Hi everybody. My name is Mark Sage.I'm the executive director of the AREA,
Augmented Reality for Enterprise Alliance.
And it's an honor and a pleasureto be speaking with a friend and
someone I look up to hugely inthe industry. Christine Perey,
independent analyst and consultant,
as well as a million other thingsyou do for the XR ecosystem.
(00:24):
And Christine, quite rightly,
you are one of theinaugural A WE Hall of Fame
recipients. So firstly,congratulations. Thank you. Amazing.
So please tell me a little bit aboutyour background and what led you do you
think becoming a inaugurala WE Hall of Famer?
Gosh, thanks, Mark. Itwas a surprise for me too,
(00:48):
as a matter of fact,
I guess I don't feel like I'm old,
but being an OG is an honorand I really appreciate the
opportunity. Why do I think,well, I'll set a little context.
I'm not going to go back intoancient history before I got into
(01:08):
ar,
but it was in 2006 thatI was part of a think
tank.
It was organized on behalf ofEuropean Research Institutes who
were going to respond to the EuropeanCommission's call for topics.
And there were probably 40 us and we
(01:30):
brainstormed for two days. And I had
amazing experience of beingon a team that invented to
ourselves the possibilityof augmented reality. We had
some materials,
you know how in think tanks you haveall these little pieces of paper,
(01:50):
different sticky colors, and in our case,
we had pipe cleaners and I made a pair of
glasses and tied on somethingwith pipe cleaners and
had this,
the use case was that you weretraveling and were passing people
that you might know oryou might be related to
(02:13):
closely,
but you didn't recognize them oryou didn't have any context. So the
use case was a socialaugmented reality setting.
However, in my past lives,
and even in 2006,
my focus is more on productivity.
It's more on getting stuff done.
(02:36):
I think that's one of thethings that I personally
try to achieve,
but I also want to provide support totechnology so the companies can be more
efficient,
employees can be more productiveand have less risk and so forth.
So it was very quickly thatthis project and this idea
(02:59):
became a passion for me. So I startedto provide consulting services.
But what was interestingin that time in 2006 is
there were still someremnants of virtual reality.
There were, people stillremembered a decade before
what had happened,
(03:21):
but there was no one reallytalking or using or really
selling augmented reality materials.
It was entirely a research domain,
mostly in big universitiesbut also in military.
So really at that time,
(03:42):
it was still quite evidentthat the military had their hands all over augmented
reality for aviation pilots,
but also of course forother disciplines I would
say.
And then there were people who had workedin these areas and augmented reality
who could imagine
(04:06):
enterprise use cases. Andthen not very long afterwards,
there were a fewcompanies, Mattia was one,
a notable one thatemerged and provided these
platforms for companiesto be able to create
experiences on their own. And I think
(04:28):
I did not code, I didn't participatein any of those companies,
but I was really kind of,
I think of myself as part of the matrix,
the glue sort of tounderstand what a one company
was doing differentlyfrom another company. And
I enjoyed being at that nexus point,
(04:51):
and it was one of the placesthat I go to every year
if I can,
is the international symposium onmixed and augmented reality. So
that's called imar. And this is wherethe research community gets together.
It's not commercial or so forth,
although there are commercial researchersthat are there. A lot of Nokia people,
(05:14):
there were Microsoft people inthose days in the early days.
So I attended Isma from probably 2006
until this year I'm going tobe going to that event. And
what happened to me a few years inis I was organizing the birds of a
(05:34):
feather.
And there was one ofthese boff sessions was
about enterprise and industrial use cases,
and it was standing room only.
There was a line at the doorand Mark that was for me,
the pivotal moment when Idecided that I was no longer
interested in consumer use cases andthat this technology would really be
(06:00):
for enterprises for productivity,
risk management and so forth.
So it was in 2010 that this kind of
surprise and very
fundamental,
I guess for me a moment.But that's only been 14 years.
That's not really that law. It's not,
(06:25):
well,
what followed in the years thatcame is I started talking with Paul
Davies at Boeing and other people who were
in big companies manufacturingvery complex products.
And then we decided tocollaborate and create the
(06:46):
area, the AR for Enterprise Alliance.
But I think one of my passions since
then is perhaps one of the reasons
that I'm part of thisinaugural group is I had
learned before and othertechnologies that I'd been
(07:07):
involved with that interoperabilitycould lead to innovation
and that
I was too late for that in thepast in the industries that
I'd worked in. And I thought,I'll get the jump on this.
And I wanted to enhance or at least
(07:29):
explain to people why interoperabilitywould be good and how to
approach this so that wedidn't end up with just a few
technology silos.
So that was much too early afraid.
Well,
just jumping back very quickly to thearea that you founded as well and lucky
(07:51):
enough to include me in that aftera couple of years, just real quick,
what was your vision of that when youfirst started and you and Paul and some of
the other companies?
Just quickly on that and then I'd loveto talk a little bit more about your
amazing work in the Sandersand interoperability space.
Yeah,
I was trying to pitchstandardization to these large
(08:15):
enterprises and they saidsomething to me that was
similar, that there's an echothat happened just in 2024,
I'll get to that in aminute. They said, Christine,
we appreciate your enthusiasm,but we have other problems.
We have much bigger fishand much more complex
(08:38):
issues to just get the technology to work.
And this for them was,
that's the crux,
was getting the contentthat they have into AR
experiences.
It was so early in their digitaltransformation that they didn't
(09:01):
have the assets.
And when we launched wasthe year that Apple acquired
Mateo.
And that was also a wakeup call for everyone to
understand that if you rely onone vendor and then something
happens out of your control,
(09:23):
you will be left kindof with some antiquated
code.
And that it already happenedbefore the matayo acquisition.
So there was concern amongthe large enterprises about
the future of these technologiesand how to integrate them
(09:44):
into their existing IT systemsway before they had done the
digital transformation.
So I think that was probablyone of the most important goals.
And one of the things that I bondedwith them was also the desire and the
need for research,
applied research thatcould be conducted in a
(10:07):
setting that resembled asclose as possible to the real
world.
And this is probably now we are on our
14th research project for the area.
We've released many of thoseprojects to the ecosystem.
We are sort of like a thinktank doing research on
(10:30):
projects that can't be doneby one company internally and
that are collaborativelyfunded and supported and
we decide on the topics asa group in these ballots in
very democratic way. So I think
that was a good anchorpoint for us. Of course,
(10:53):
we've developed many othercommittees, the statement of needs,
the requirements database,
the committees about ofcourse safety and security,
human factors.
So these are first order
problems. They're not back burner issues.
(11:18):
That's amazing. And thank you forthe kind of work on the research,
like you said, what it's reallyimportant, they're very practical, usable,
there's always something in therethat can be reused numerous times by
the area members.
I think the research projects,they've evolved of course.
And one of the things thatwe've really done well,
(11:43):
I'm very pleased with and thank youMark, for your support on all this,
is creating a tool,
trying to get eachproject to provide us the
area members with atool. It might be code,
it might be a spreadsheet,
a decision support tool.
(12:07):
These then can be adapted as you said,
or they can be compared with the toolsthat have been built internally. Now,
these are not intended to be toolsthat compete with any of our members
products or services.
They are financial tools like the
return on investmentcalculator or as I said,
(12:29):
decision support tools and thingsthat allow people to examine their own
procedures to improve them.
Yeah. Wow. Thank you. Socoming on to the last question,
and I had another look,
and I quite often have a look at yourLinkedIn profile and it still amazes at me
the amount of, and I'm noteven sure is up to date,
(12:51):
but the standards andinteroperability and research
organizations that you support.
And I think one of the reasons for thisaward is reflection of the amount of
time and effort anddrive you put into them.
So globally recognized for allof that outstanding work in
standards and interoperability inthe immersive technology space.
(13:12):
But where do you think we are andwhat needs to happen for that to
become, to drive innovation,as you mentioned earlier.
Right?
So thanks for bringing that up andturning the conversation to this topic.
I think to me,
we are still in the dark ages.
(13:37):
There's still a strongattachment to technology silos.
And I believe that that ishindering the adoption because the
large enterprises,
they don't want to be exposedto just one vendor for all
of their technologystack. So we're still not
(14:02):
running, we're still crawling
in this domain. I think that
what we are seeing now,
and certainly I saw it at themost recent area member meeting,
and I see it elsewhere when Iwork with large industry clients
and partners,
(14:25):
that in order for augmented reality to be
integrated into the existing IT systems,
there have to be APIs andthere have to be components,
there has to be a modular architecture.
And while numerous modulararchitectures have been proposed,
(14:46):
and I've been involved in two of,well, not even three of those,
there are not enough providers who embrace
that philosophy.
I think the only way we're going tomake long-term impact is when the
customer segment, in otherwords, the oil and gas companies,
(15:10):
manufacturing companies,aviation, automotive,
those industries ask for or require
certain standards to beimplemented in their solutions.
So that's really what I work on most
actively now is working on
(15:32):
the messaging and how toconvince the customer segment
that they are doing themselvesa disservice if they
don't ask for interoperability,
don't require it even.
I'm very passionate about thestandards that I see developing
(15:53):
in the Kronos group, theOpen Geospatial Consortium,
the IEE, Etsy,
the European TelecommunicationsSpace Standards Agency.
There are many great teams working out
there. I'm often just a bystander.
(16:14):
I do lead three committeesor working groups,
and that is a way for me to contribute.
I can't write these codes,
I can't do the engineering.
But one of the stepsthat we're all working,
I think towards more actively now in 2024,
(16:37):
is demonstrating whatinteroperability can provide
without
tangible demonstrations ofwhat standards adoption could
bring.The large enterprises won't be convinced.
So a lot of my effortright now is on applied
demonstrations, videosthat show demonstrations.
(17:00):
I also want to say that
augmented reality isnever going to achieve
all that we hope it toachieve if the human factors
are not resolved.
And that's not an areathat I see standardization
being a big contributor in.
(17:22):
I think that is a trial and error.
It's a agreement among users
about how they want to havethis information provided.
So that's a big factor.
And having hardware thatsupports the types of interaction
that the users need. Now,
(17:44):
interoperability in the hardware domain,
we have OpenXR showing a lot of promise.
We're not finished withthat particular standard.
That still needs a lot of work.
I think it's important for people tounderstand that standardization isn't a
one-time fix. It is somethingthat is a continuous process.
(18:06):
And as we do demonstrations, welearn where the standards are weak,
where they need to be improved.It's an iterative process,
mark. It's just nevergoing to be finished.
It's a journey rather than a destination.
Exactly. Exactly. No,
I think there's just a lot of
(18:29):
potential, but a lack of attention.
And then what I said about innovationis that when you have interoperability,
then companies can specialize.
They don't have to provide the entiretechnology stack, all the hardware,
all of the software fordelivering and for authoring
(18:50):
experiences.
They can begin to focus on their own
areas of expertise if it's rendering or
seen recognition, object segmentation,
all of these things have to be excellent,
(19:12):
not just average.
And I think companies then can innovateby bringing the best parts of all this
stuff, but they have a infrastructureor model to join them all.
And that's obviously where interoperativemakes is one of the big plays,
is allowing companies to pick the best,bring it together in a controlled way.
(19:32):
Right.
Awesome. Christine, thank you everso much. Congratulations on this.
Thank you for all the workyou do, not only for the area,
but all of those other organizations.
I know they're all appreciative andit's one thing for clear with all
your hard work in pushing. Wewill get there. We will get there.
(19:52):
I hope so. Mark, it'sjourney like you said.
And I think that it's veryexciting to see that a WE is
recognizing people,
other people much more senior thanmyself who have contributed to this
before. And I guess we'reall still involved. Many,
(20:13):
many people are still involved.
Okay, Christine, thank verymuch and congratulations. Thank.
You.
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