Cate C. Wells

Join us in our chat with author Cate C. Wells as we talk about werewolf shifters, rejected mates, and how she crafts such awesome world-building in her paranormal romance novels.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
my shirt Kenya.
I'm listening.
to the author spotlight with Kenyagori Bell and myself, Mony Boyce.
Today we have joining us Arthur, I said that right, Arthur Casey Wells.
How are you doing?
Thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you for having me.
I'm super stoked.
you go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself?

(00:24):
Yes.
So I write contemporary and paranormal romance.
Contemporary, write small town, MC, mafia, and then kind of some experimental stuff.
And then for paranormal, I write rejected mate wolf shifters, where the spaded mates endup together.

(00:47):
So it's very, very specific niche.
I'm from Baltimore.
I have two children.
I have a husband.
He is a Renaissance man.
What else about me?
just, yeah, 47.

(01:10):
Scorpio.
your birthday's coming up.
Just haven't my real birthday.
I unfortunately have a fake birthday and a real birthday for social media reasons.
So
That's smart.
That is so smart.
So hi everybody.

(01:30):
I'm Kenya Gorey-Bell and I am a very big fan of K.C.
Wells and that's why we have her here talking about all of her books but she know what Iwant to talk about anyway because she already know because we, Kate and I are friends and
I've been asking and begging and demanding and bullying her.

(01:50):
That doesn't sound anything like you!
to write about white.
Okay, she has, okay, so the way I discovered Kate, like I discovered all the writers,okay, like the way I was, I first came in contact with Kate was she wrote this book called
Run Posey Run.
And ever since then, we have been locked in.

(02:13):
Somehow I finagled her telephone number.
We discovered a shared love of Drumaeani.
fiction.
I just saw a cute picture I need to send you.
And yeah, and I just love that book so much.

(02:33):
I think every time I do like an author pop in, I just bring Kate because Kate isautomatically going to say yes.
we can talk about it.
Most of the time she got a book coming out, which I just feel like I discovered you.
through Run, Posey Run, but I think all of your books just resonate so well with thereaders.

(02:59):
Why do you think that is?
No idea.
Hello, so I Lucy Lucy Monroe and I were talking about the day she's like a mentor to me.
She wrote for Harlequin for years and years and years.

(03:23):
She now she does mafia.
And he also yet she's like she's the most generous person with like time and knowledge oflike anybody that I know.
And she she was telling me
the last time we were talking that it occurred to her why she likes my book so much.

(03:45):
it's because like I do these like little details that like make the characters seem real.
So because I do kind of have that experience of like, readers will like read my whole bookand at the end they'll be mad at part of it.
They'll be like, they'll be like, I didn't like her or like, you know, the end is bad orlike, or like,

(04:09):
the most recent book that I had, a lot of people were mad because they felt like she wastoo much of a doormat.
I'm like, but you finished it in one night.
And I think that's why I think that people kind of like, yeah, they kind of fall in, whichis the experience that I want when I read a book, like I like to, to like other world, you

(04:35):
know.
Which is like when I feel when I read your books.
And I also feel like the weather is better in your books than where I am.
says it is hot, you know, but, you know, one particular when I when I wrote toxic, I waslike, how is he going to have, you know, a Japanese garden down here?

(05:00):
And then, you know, I was doing the research and, know, and then trying to make sure likeall those delicate flowers didn't die.
And then so he had a lot of he took time to cultivate and intersperse the the the
the flowers that were gonna thrive with homegrown Alabama kind of heartier plants.

(05:24):
I was like, that's the only way you gotta have a, he could have a Japanese cherry wood,but it also gotta have a Alabama dogwood.
it's just like, it's the little details that you do, like with Dario, I think the thingwith, and that's the hero from Ron Posey, Ron, he was a psychopath, that got me into
writing psychopaths and was the fact that

(05:48):
the chess and that they connected on them playing games.
And I think that was and she was the only person who could beat him.
And and I think a lot of people resonated with Posey because of that.
And she was plucky.
She was, you know, you know, that that book.

(06:10):
And he just wanted to be loved, right?
just wanted to be, yo.
I love that.
love like with her.
really like that.
She was, you know, desperate to be loved.
He's making a lot of bad choices to be loved, but she wasn't a stupid woman.
she was very clever.
Yeah, like those things coexist all the time.

(06:31):
Yeah, well, you know, and I think sometimes readers forget that, like, going even back toyour comment where you said some people were mad that they felt that the character was a
doormat.
The thing is, in real life, some people are doormats.
It's like, I mean, to say that a heroine in a book can never be that would be like denyingthat that exists even in real life.

(06:53):
Yeah, and I think the argument is, or like what I'll hear sometimes is like, I readromance to escape.
And I think that if you like if you read romance to escape, not be the one.
it might not.
Yeah.
And, and I think that like, and I often, like, sometimes I also want to read to escape.

(07:16):
And I think that you can do that also like in in dark romance, like it's
It's heavy, but like, it's not real, you know?
have those circumstances.
and it's like in your Wolfshifter books and things like that, like that's a completeescape.
Like you're not going to be with a wolf clan.

(07:38):
But the family dynamics and what you do so well in those stories and the interpersonalrelationships in those stories, that's what's resonated.
I don't care how much you want to escape.
there are going to be like drips and drabs of life that pull you free.

(08:01):
Like right now, I have this book right here by me, Six Crimson Cranes.
And this is as far away from Alabama as you can get.
This Asian girl, she's a princess living in the Imperial Palace with her brothers, her sixbrothers, and they get.

(08:21):
A spell gets cast on them, right?
So this happened like day before a few days ago.
And I wrote, I posted on social media.
if you saw it, I, she gets separated from her brother because they get cursed and she getscursed by the evil stepmother, right?
Y'all, I was, listened in tandem to reading when I do fantasy, right?

(08:44):
It's a toad.
So I'm really escaping life when I'm doing it.
So I am listening to the story.
And she finds her brothers.
And I started sobbing.
It's like still 20%, 30 % in story.

(09:06):
And I started sobbing.
then so I'm like texting my husband.
First of all, he's like, what the F is wrong with you?
What's going on?
He was like, why are you crying?
No, I was sobbing, gut-ridging sobs, right?
And then I was like, I'm texting Trey to tell him I love him because it resonated with mehow much I loved my brother because of the way she loved her brothers and the way they

(09:32):
loved her.
And I was like, I know my brother was searched for me.
know, y'all, it'll just touch my heart so I'm about to cry again.
was saying, that was amazing.
can be emotionally true, even if like, if the premise is completely farfetched.
And I think, like, and some romance, I think, is emotionally true.

(09:58):
And then some of it is kind of like, almost emotionally aspirational, like, plays andlike, I'll read those I do.
And, and, you know, I enjoy a lot of them.
But like,
they, it's almost like, like it's aesthetically romantic and not like emotionally.

(10:20):
And so like, you know, it doesn't, I don't have any kind of emotional reaction to it.
So like, it's a, you know, sometimes that's nice and soothing.
But like, sometimes I want my heart ripped out by a book about a gangbang gang.
If y'all can see my expressions.

(10:42):
Are you watching this girl?
What?
you a Y2's girly?
everything.
I'm currently in my Omegaverse era again.
Omegaverse has changed a lot.
I was originally in my Omegaverse era with Addison Cain, which she writes very dark.

(11:03):
And now the whole genre has moved very light, very sweet.
lady?
Or is that?
She kind of, she did Strange Ways, which was sci-fi, but yeah, she does a littledystopian.
like Allison or she she has an a name Yes Yeah
is it Alison Ames?

(11:24):
Yeah, like I think I read her back in the day too.
And then there's Callie Rhodes, I think who does sort of a, like the borderlands, I thinkshe calls it.
But like now, now it's all like, it's like very cute and they like they play hockey andstuff and like and they never bang.
Am I allowed to say kind of swords and stuff on this?

(11:45):
Yeah, like it's like
show.
You said all.
Y2 stuff you've ever read in your life.
Like they are just, you know, they they have these lovely dates and they, you know, arevery there's like a lot of oral.
It's like I wish the audience could see like our faces in this moment because I'm sittinghere like a wide shoes that's clean.

(12:06):
Is that is that a thing?
Why sweet?
Like they don't- like I thought the point of why choose was to like the configurations,right?
closed door?
Is no S.E.X.
is no sex in there?
there is, but it's like way towards the end.
It's like, it's all very slow burn and it's like, and they all have to like have their ownsingle dates.

(12:33):
And then the end is when they like, they, do some kind of, you know, group effort, butlike,
Moni, y'all Moni, Moni, Moni's expression for people listening is like, what the fuck isthis?
What is this?
I just like, I was like doesn't that like defy the whole like premise of course

(12:55):
that cake.
It's very soothing in these like, in these intense emotional, in these troubled times isvery soothing to watch like a polycule get to know each other emotionally.
now?
I'm like, y'all, you do it.

(13:18):
People have, they've, I think it's the sheer genius of the romance world that you can havea slow burn, like friends to lovers.
Why choose, like who thought that?
Like why choose romance?
And so there is no sword crossing.
like, I'm gonna flip this genre on its head.

(13:39):
Yeah, there is no sword crossing it.
I can't imagine that happening.
They always have like one mm couple that is already pre-established and then they get tohave sex early in the book.
And then, you know, in a very loving and like committed, not melando, it's a committedway.

(14:05):
And then, and that sort of, yeah.
figures out, figures into there.
At the like 90 % like 85 90%.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's very comforting.
more of like, first of all, I'm not a Y2's girlie.

(14:28):
I'm very, like it's like every once in a while, right?
Because in my mental makeup, I think I've said this before, it is very hard for,
being married to the person I'm married to and that being a survivable circumstance.

(14:48):
So I can't even wrap my head around writing that.
Like if he knew even that I was writing it, he would be like, well, what is this saying?
Like what is going on?
Because a lot of people...
when I was ghostwriting.
That was one of the subgenres that I would write.

(15:09):
As a ghostwriter, I wrote some of everything historical, that, the waichus, I wroteobviously contemporary.
I think I even wrote, yeah, wrote clean small town romance.
Um, yeah.
Of course it was always strange, could go from like the clean, wholesome, and then it'slike, and now there's like six dudes.

(15:35):
Yeah, I feel like it takes so much talent to, like on both ends of those spectrums, likewe've talked to Mel Walker, that it would actually take, it takes a lot of talent to write
closed door like that.
And it takes a lot of talent to write multiple, that multiple partner type of thing.

(15:57):
And also like urban, where you have like different, like sometimes they have up to fourPOVs in the...
in the book.
So, when you're reading Y2's, is it different?
Everybody has a different POV represented?
Yes.

(16:17):
And like, I feel like the genre is maturing with that because there was a time where likethe only one that I had read was Stacia Black's, I think it's a marriage lottery or the
bride lottery, which is not post-apocalyptic, but she also, had, each of the men had just.

(16:39):
distinctive looks and personalities and background stories and motivations and you justdidn't see that a lot a lot of it was like and I love Renee Rose So this is not like a dig
at all I and I think I it's either Karen Kane or Renee Rose where they would like theywere aliens and they were like and they were just just multiple hot aliens like You know,

(17:01):
they had some distinguishing characteristics, but mostly yeah, like they didn't
they were like, pioneering then.
So you still working at Kingside in the beginning.
But I was about to ask, like, so what would be your guilty pleasure writing kind of genrethat you would like to do aside from the two that you're writing in now?

(17:22):
Would you write, would you write clothes or what would be your guilty pleasure that youwrite under a secret pen name or something?
I started in a megaverse, Y2s, and I quickly learned to respect, like keeping track ofthat many characters is like wickedly difficult.

(17:44):
So I kind of backed off of that.
Also like nobody's asking for that from me.
And like, I love, love, love high drama, betrayal, grovel.
Eww.
I'm currently obsessed with Maya Alden.
I want to know who she was in her former life because I like she lets these little cluesdrop and like and we're and we're cool.

(18:13):
And she's just I think I think that she wrote Harlequins in a former life.
But so she like I like her what she's doing with it.
Christine Michelle does it.
And I can't think of any, Natasha Anders with the Unwanted Wife.

(18:35):
I think Katharine Moura does it to an extent, like, we're that sort of like at thebeginning, just like in Run Posey Run, where like you just get slapped in the face at the
beginning.
And then there's, know, how could we come back from this?
you take the cake on that.
Like, Ramposie Run at this point is iconic for that.

(18:57):
And I love, love, love that.
Lauren, is it Lauren Asher does that a little bit?
No, she does like arranged marriage type thing.
I got to look at this, Maya on a kiss from a rose.
No ordinate love, best of me.
Okay.
In my opinion, she's doing a lot of interesting things.

(19:20):
One of which is like almost all of her stories are interracial romance.
Almost all of her female main characters are women of color.
But they are often South Asian, they are often mixed race.
And they're all like,

(19:43):
very successful professional women, like architects, like mostly architects.
And then
they, her books, me pull it over here.
They have that harlequin vibe on the cover, like the present.
Yeah.
She does her, she does her own covers.
Yeah.
She's even like market some of them as I think modern vintage she calls it.

(20:10):
Yeah.
And she does that.
She does a like, she does like the first half of the book.
Now, this is not all of them, but a lot of them.
Like the first half of the book is leading up to the betrayal.
And then the second half is like,
the reconciliation, which is like, that's exactly what I want.

(20:31):
I think what I love like when I was reading more about like what you write is that you'rekind of like choosing it sounds like you're more of a story person over I'm gonna brand
myself as only doing this particular subgenre and I kind of love that because I'm kind ofthe same way I'm like I don't necessarily stick to I'm gonna just write hockey romance and

(20:52):
again I'm definitely not bashing anybody that chooses to brand themselves I just assomebody
who's an avid reader as somebody who likes to write stories just based off of what idea Iget.
I loved that it's like you've done Small Town, you've done Mafia, you're paranormal.
And so I love that as an author that you're kind of just picking up.

(21:15):
And then even that you connect a lot of your contemporaries.
I wish I'd been smarter about that.
I'm trying to connect more of my series.
So I love like just your kind of flow of to your writing.
Yeah, I think that I lucked out by like setting them all in the same geographical area.

(21:37):
And so like, small town and I had a big city and like, and so then I could have them likevisit each other and like, that kind of thing.
Yeah, like, no, my goal was to write a like a world big enough where whatever story Iwanted to tell, I could set it in one of the series.

(21:58):
And yeah.
And I think I did that.
But then I also set up a situation where like people are asking for certain stories andI'm like, I don't write that though.
Is that what's going on with, what's their name?
forget, junk.

(22:18):
or do you not want to write that book?
No, if I had infinite time, I absolutely would.
I know a lot of what the story is.
It's gonna be really dark and it's gonna be a menage, right?
And that means it's not gonna sell very well for me because people...

(22:42):
thought your last book wasn't going to sell well and it did.
And the 70s, the 80s throwback book, that was an experimental book.
Okay, Hush, your book is going to sell because everybody's been waiting for that book.
Okay, wait,

(23:03):
So that was Return to Monte Carlo.
So it was like a tribute, the tribute to category romance, but I it in the 80s.
And like it was like he doesn't come home for their anniversary, first anniversary dinner.
And so she like, he flies back to Texas.

(23:24):
Okay, I kind of want to read that.
I kind of always love the throwbacks or like, because I know most people wouldn't considerthat like historical because it's not like, what is historical 50s and like earlier.
But I always kind of love the books that are like ones that I've seen they're like, it'sthe 1990s or that's why I'm like, ooh, the 80s.
I'm like all over that.

(23:46):
I kind of feel like we need to like also up like as time goes on like update what ishistorical because like for example
Historical is what's 100 years ago.
So that would be 19...
I want to say most how like, especially if you're dealing with trad publishing, I thinkthey say like 1950s and earlier is what they consider.

(24:10):
Yeah, is what they consider historical.
okay.
And I feel like at one point they said anything pre or during World War II.
they adjusted at some point.
that's what I was thinking the pre-World War II, but then I think I saw somewhere where itsays it's like technically what's 100, but maybe in the romance world it's 150, I don't

(24:39):
know, 1950.
But like the 80s seemed like, know, 100 years ago now, things move so fast now, you know.
Yeah, well, like all of the like it was fun to do because you could do all of the likehistorical social mores like a lot of like the the really, you know, rigid gender roles,

(25:02):
etc.
Like you could play with all those, but they didn't they could have indoor plumbing.
like, and like, and travel and things like that.
So so I enjoyed that because I do like I do like a rigid playing around with the rigidgender role.
It's fun to me.
I do too.
Those gender roles are very strict.
when it's like predates a lot of technology like cell phones I feel like you just get awaywith a lot more like plot wise that you can't know.

(25:32):
like now, knowing what we know and knowing now, we could have been some good criminalsback then.
They would have never caught you.
You can't do anything now.
They'll catch you on some TV.
Yeah, like they um, like that was a key plot point in Return to Monte Carlo was like,because of the technology, like she could, she calls and like she doesn't want to talk to

(25:54):
him, he like, unplugs the phone.
Like you can't unplug a phone anymore.
I know today's like was a Gen Z will never get that like when you could like literallyslam down the phone in somebody's ear
keeps slamming
Yeah.
keeps just keep like, uh.

(26:15):
You know I did it.
Oh my God, or throw the cordless phone.
You know how the shit break out of it, you gotta put it back together.
Or rewind the tape.
You know, they will never have those.
Nothing said, I think I put this on Facebook, nothing said love in the eight, in thenineties, than a guy making you a CD without a song something there.

(26:48):
They loved you if they made you.
They talk about the strength of driving.
You used to be flipping through the city.
You had the love mix, the workout mix.
You had all the songs.
Oh my God.
And people would burn you a city.

(27:10):
Yeah.
but like that's just click, click, click.
no, like I remember I had them on cassette.
like there had to be coordinated effort, you know, over time.
talking, like if it was on the radio.
Exactly.
No, I still remember that.
Like you'd sit there and wait for like hours for that song to finally be played.

(27:32):
just so that you could record it.
tell your sister, ahead, stop the applause.
And you'd be mad at them if they didn't do it right.
And you couldn't check the tunes.
You couldn't check until the song was done.
my God.
And people don't dedicate songs somewhere on the radio because nobody's listening to theradio for real.

(27:57):
They just talk all the time here, here in Baltimore.
They, for some reason, they talk all the time and they play M and M and 50 cents daily,
wow.
Yeah, see I can't do really radio anymore because it is, it's like the same songs inrotation.
Like you're just like, there's more music out there.

(28:21):
Yeah, no, I think that the station that my daughter prefers to listen to, like, I thinkthat they're on some kind of loop and that they haven't, like, they're not adjusting it
because, we're driving at the same time every day.
And I swear to God, it's like the same songs.
they're not like, they're not, yeah, and they're not like, it's a, it's a, like a variety,like a mix.

(28:45):
But they're like from, like, what would that be?
Like the early aughts, like late nineties?
So yeah, that is it.
Bye, though.
so right now I would say that your rejected mate really took off.
People love those, all of those.

(29:05):
So what is your plan for that series?
Just to keep going with it or spin-off second generation?
Yeah, I have a lot of characters whose stories I'd like to write.
I'm writing Annie and Justices right now.
I'm almost finished it.
Like, I'm struggling, struggling, but like I'm almost finished.

(29:26):
And then there's like several other couples that I definitely want to do.
I want to do a character named Kennedy, and then I want to do a character named Leith.
And there's a couple others.
So like, as long as people keep reading them, I'll keep writing them.
They're publishing them.
is, okay, okay, where is the virgin in the group?

(29:46):
Because, you know, I got my virgin.
Well, Annie was until like, like, you know, justice came around and fate and likedisaster.
So like, she
Yeah, like it is explicit.

(30:08):
It is not perhaps hot, but it is explicit in this one.
He gets it.
Hopefully it'll be hot at the end.
The beginning is just...
Yeah, don't know about the menopause has hit me.
We really need to plot.

(30:31):
And characterization.
And then like I...
that almost all of the characters are virgins in the shifter series.
Except for I'm writing like a sister of one of the other characters.
And she has kids and she's got like a terrible mate.

(30:53):
So she's not going to end up with her original mate.
She's going to get a fresh squeaky new man.
So when you, so when you, so Luca, Luca Nelm's story is not going to be this year or is itgoing to be next year?
I'm trying to like, I have realized that you know about PDA, Like persistent demand forautonomy.

(31:23):
And I realized I got a touch of that.
And so that like, if I have a deadline, then I don't want to do it.
And it kind of like freezes me up.
And then like, just won't or like I feel obligated to do something that I just won't doit.
So I'm trying to like,
I'm trying to leave it really super open and then just like what write would I would Iwant to write?

(31:45):
feel like.
That's why I will give a broad idea and then whoever pops up on my little shoulder and islike, it's my time.
And then I'm like, no, it's not really your time.
They'd be like, yeah, it's my time.
Hehehehehe
So yeah.
It comes better that way.
comes faster that way and easier.

(32:06):
Yeah.
So like I would like to, and maybe like that's a contender.
Harper's a contender.
Jessie's a contender and Kennedy is a contender.
And like, if I can pull myself together and do all four, like that would be amazing.
You will, because you're amazing.
So, you know, what do you do to find balance with your writing and then like home andmental health and all of that stuff?

(32:32):
like today, November 1st.
2024.
Prayer.
You're so silly.
You are so silly.
It was funny because the look on your face was kind of like, have I found balance?
Is that a thing?
Well, I do.

(32:52):
I actually I'm way more balanced than I than I used to be.
I have an acupuncturist who's amazing.
And I have like, I have an herbalist who's recommended some things that have been superhelpful.
Like you might not like, you know that I'm like, like I have a chronic illness that sucks.

(33:15):
I do.
Yeah, I got when I caught
COVID in November of 2020.
So I got like the OG version and got really, really sick and caused something calledsarcoidosis.
Yeah, so like, like, so and then that there were other complications associated with it.

(33:38):
So I kind of like, it was, I was super blessed because Run Posey Run kind of took offright when I became
disabled and couldn't do my job anymore, which was I was a public school teacher for many,years.
So, and I couldn't like, couldn't stand that long anymore.

(34:00):
too.
There are a lot of us who used to be teachers.
And I just really, my husband's like, you're never going to be hired again.
Don't even attempt it.
So I can't believe people let me around their kids, but they did.
I'm like awesome.
That is like excellent.

(34:25):
I was a middle school teacher and I was the English department chair.
So sixth, seventh and eighth.
Yeah.
for two years and then the pandemic happened.
Yeah, I know.
Yeah.
What aid did you substitute for?
over the map so I did elementary all the way up through high school and like yeah I did itall although some of it I was just like I'm never coming back to this grade again.

(34:58):
Like I did 18 years and that is enough.
God bless you.
yeah, that's, mean, having, mean, granted, you know, I wasn't like, I think there was onemoment where I did like three months full-time cause I was subbing for somebody who was on
maternity leave.
So I had the class literally from like open house through, think it was like November.

(35:21):
And I was just like, my God, God bless teachers.
Cause you guys put up and deal with a lot.
Like, I don't think a lot of people understand it's not just teaching anymore.
Like you're asked to be like a therapist and a social worker and it's like and and and.
Yeah, it's a cult.
it.
I did love it though.
I loved it.

(35:41):
What grade did you go to do teach?
like, it was multiple grades, but it was like the theater and speech class.
So it was all fun stuff and it was sometimes English, but you know, we would play, wewould have play games on Friday and I wouldn't let them win.

(36:01):
And so it was mostly like fourth, fourth, fifth and sixth grade.
And cause they have intermediate, they had intermediate.
Then we'll...
in Colorado.
Why is you in here?

(36:22):
Cut that part out, Mumi.
Anyway, and yeah, so we did a little plays.
It was the height of the Iraq award.
So it was a Mills hearing facility school and it was great.
We had so much fun.
Like it was great.
I stayed in trouble.

(36:43):
Stayed being rep.
And yeah, it was great.
And so, yeah, I missed my kids for a long time after I stopped teaching, but I had my ownbaby.
I stopped working because I had my baby, I was like, I haven't did that in 17 years now,he's 17.

(37:05):
It's like as you grow through life, you have different phases.
And that was like that phase and now I'm in this phase.
And it can be, you know, the same thing as being an author when you're new and you'regreen and you're learning and where you are now and where you want to see yourself.

(37:26):
So where do you want to see yourself?
Kate, see how great I am?
I want to be able to do this for the rest of my life.
I love this job.
You do need balance though.
I was going real hard for a really long time.

(37:49):
I hope that you can until you can't anymore, I think.
that, yeah, you have to, you might want to.
you know, do eight hours and you might have eight hours, but you can't like you like thebrain has limits.
And I think as we all have such big brains, like we push them harder maybe than like, likewe have like a lot of confidence because you know, like, like writers have, you know,

(38:23):
really amazing capacities for like, you know, holding so like how many worlds we have likethat we're holding in our hands, like
and yeah, I didn't think that I could get tired.
Like my brain could get tired.
and then I was like, it cannot.
With the chronic illness, how did it affect your schedule of writing and doing the thingsthat you'd been doing in terms of being an author?

(38:50):
Well, like one of the things is I used to be able to write in the afternoon and evenings,but like I have to write in the morning now because I like as the day progresses, my
strength wanes and my stamina wanes.
so like I, and I, I do like my health has been improving.
Like I've been like clawing it back.

(39:11):
Um, so I can get to like work to like one o'clock now, whereas before it was more like 11,1130.
But my word count is not what it used to be.
Like I can do about a thousand to two thousand words a day.
And I used to be able to do like three, four, you know, like, and lots of people do a lotmore.

(39:33):
And it just, I just can't.
And like accepting that is, I don't know, maybe I will one day.
You're so great.
you know, health is so important.
And I think as writers, we sometimes forget that because we get, we get like tunnel visionwhen we're working and it's like easy to like, especially if it's just flowing and then,

(39:55):
you know, you like, like hours go by and you haven't gotten up or you haven't eaten or youhaven't like, cause I had really bad habits starting out.
Like I wasn't sleeping properly.
I would sit up like I had.
you know, a 40 hour a week job that I would go to, but then I would like come home and I'dsit at my computer and I would write to the wee hours of the morning, barely sleeping and

(40:17):
then like rinse and repeat like all week long.
And so at one point I did, hit a wall.
Like when I say like burn out, like I like just, I literally had to stop like writing fora while because
Not only was I like just burnout.
Well, obviously part of the burnout, it's like you start to feel like it's a chore andit's like, I always loved writing, but it started to feel like a chore and I was just

(40:41):
tired like all the time from obviously not sleeping in these really bad habits of justlike not taking care of myself.
And you realize like you have to take care of yourself in order for that to work becauseyour brain just doesn't function the way it should when it's not getting enough sleep.
So yeah, no.
Yeah, listen to your body.
like sitting and the lack of circulation is like hugely problematic.

(41:07):
And which you don't realize until you've been doing it for years.
then, yeah.
you have to like take a walk, get out, which, you know, my whole goal this weekend was notto leave this house.
And I am the queen of over committing myself.
And then I'm just like, I know I'm going to over commit, but I'm still going to just doeverything I can and then, you know, carry over.

(41:36):
But I have regulated myself to writing.
twice a day and break it up in chunks from like, it was 1130 to 230 and now it's more like12 to two.
But those two hours and then catch it up on the backend at night.

(41:59):
And that's worked for me from eight to 10 because then my kids are asleep and because Ihave to be a mom for that big chunk of time.
And then I'm just not going to get up before 10 o'clock in the morning because a lot oftimes and it's because I, you know, I'm not, you know, I was like trying to justify it at

(42:22):
one point, like, you know, but for me and my mental health, I have to read.
have to read.
Reading nightly refills my well and
Right now I have a system that works for me because after I read at night, after I write,I reward myself with a good book.

(42:47):
And then I fall asleep, then I wake up at six, get the kids ready, and then I go back tosleep soon as they leave until 10 o'clock or 10.30.
And I love it.
I love it here.
And I'm not changing it.
My husband wants me to move it up so we can.
I can walk, go do a walk.
I'm really not gonna do that.

(43:08):
I like sleeping in.
And I just, it's a good little system.
It's making good books and I feel well rested.
And I just like, I'm not gonna change it.
I've never been a morning person ever.
Like, like Moany said, when you hit a wall and you didn't like, it felt like a chore.

(43:30):
Like I realized when that happened, it was because I wasn't reading romance.
Because like, cause like I was, I was so tired that I was just like doing socials or likereading the news or something instead of like, and like when I read romance, I get so
excited.
Like that is what makes me feel, yeah, like, that, that looks like fun.

(43:53):
I want to try that.
Yes.
but that's so true.
I mean, because I agree with you 100%.
That was the other part of just like the burnout was that I had no time to read because itwas like between the eight hour job and then trying to write, it left no room for actually
reading, which is something I've enjoyed like for as long as I can remember.

(44:13):
And so I agree with you 100 % when you're not like feeding yourself creatively.
Yeah, anytime somebody.
impacts your ability to do what it is that we do, which is being storytellers.
Yeah, anytime somebody says, I have writer's block or unblocked or whatever like that.
I was like, when last time you read a good book?

(44:34):
And it's always been months or that you're a writer and you're not reading?
Come on.
That's not that, you know, because even the best ideas and I will tell you exactly whatideas Kate gave me.
OK.
And where they are in my books.
Kate has in Ramposey Run where he puts her in the trunk.

(44:57):
That is also read, and I told Kate, you're gonna see that again, The first thing you getto in toxic, the first thing you get to in toxic is he puts her in the trunk.
the whole situation is different and he has a mental health issue as well.

(45:20):
But he puts her in the trunk.
And then there is the scene, you read Bad Guy, didn't you?
You read Bad Guy with Kiyoshi and Cry.
There's a point in the story where she comes downstairs and he's sitting at his desk andhe shows her the video where he thinks she's betrayed him.

(45:44):
And that's exactly where Rhyme Posse runs.
I'm gonna do it.
be wrong if like I wrote because the story idea that I had in my head, like I didn't quiteuse it exactly the way it was in my head for that.
And I'm like, are people gonna think I'm like ripping myself off if I like use somethingvery similar to that in a different story?

(46:06):
not
Because it's not like I just about that is because I'm like first of all I tell people I'mlike you're gonna see that scene again cuz I'm gonna rewrite it And she did it to
perfection like it was perfection, but I was like, okay Well, let's do a 2.0 because youknow how you read something and I read Rampose around like three times You can't get

(46:29):
enough of that.
You can't get enough of that crushing scene where he
repudiates her where he, like he was very close to killing her, to unaliving her at thatpoint.
Dario was done with her.
And to see that part and to see him totally, then he realizes like a little while laterthat he made a mistake.

(46:56):
hahahahah
He realizes later, but does he go with flowers and all of this stuff?
No, he kidnaps her again and throws her in the trunk and puts her in the trunk of his carand drives her all the way back to this town.
And I'm just like, New Jersey or whatever.
And I'm like, he is completely bonkers, but it was so good.

(47:18):
It was so good.
was like, yeah.
So what did you rip off of yourself that you were?
Well, had an idea for a story where like, she's the female main character is like doinglike porn.

(47:42):
It's like her first time doing probably butt sex, I would imagine.
And she's doing it with a guy she knows, like a friend, and she's doing it to...
make money for a loved one's operation.
she's completely.
Like it's absolutely like she's she's such a good girl, but she's in such a bad, naughtyposition.

(48:06):
this like business plans to business plan.
His buddies take him like for his birthday or something.
they know where this like porno is being shot.
Like we can come and watch like we know the director.
It'll like, you know, it'd be all hot.
We'll do cocaine or something.
And can I say.
you
And so he's sitting there in the cuck chair.

(48:27):
Can I say cuck chair?
this all is happening.
And the woman who's a very good person doing, sacrificing her innocence for her loved oneis looking at this guy who's actually a decent person.
And there's just like, did you any faults in love?

(48:47):
And I'm like.
You better write it.
you
I mean, you know.
if he then, like they are about to do it.
And then he's like, well, I need to be the person doing it.
Who cares?
sorry, I'm sorry.

(49:08):
go.
I know.
Like, kind of, I always like, I try not to all the time, because I do also like to likemake a living.
But like, I like to sort of see like, how far can I push this?
Like, how far will you come along with me, Red Mans weverse?
it is going to go.
Because technically, would say Ryan Posey Ryan was dark, right?

(49:30):
You said contemporary, but I would say that was dark.
so, yeah, if it's in that world, you can definitely do it.
Let's brainstorm that when we do have brainstorming.
Oh
excited for that.
That is like the best idea I've ever heard.
And I don't know of anybody who's

(49:51):
brainstorming thing?
I was like, I'm getting my favorite.
You sit up there like what?
didn't, Loni, don't do me like that, you know I told you.
So few people, so by the time this air, it'll probably be old news, but I am going to beoffering brainstorming as like an author service.

(50:15):
And so I asked my best author friends to help me beta the thing.
Yeah.
and give me a little testimonial.
yeah, so it's a, I love bothering.
I love exchanging services for service and because everything is so expensive and I justfeel like, I could use, you could use that $300 on Christmas or whatever instead of giving

(50:44):
it to me.
And I can use the thousands that I'm gonna siphon from you for whatever I need.
just like I'll barter that brainstorming for those promo videos that I do.
oh, you get, oh Kate.
Moni does the most amazing promo videos.
She did one for Camping Shop and it's pinned to my...

(51:05):
like the book trailers that you want.
I'm like, well, because I have a background in film, like that's what I did for 16 years.
So for me, that kind of thing comes naturally like to put those together.
I advertised advertised I like I had the idea because I was helping a friend author who'sin the Anthology that I'm that is coming out December 5th second generation Daria's

(51:34):
daughter Called sin and snowflakes Sin and snowflakes is a whole bunch of mafia romanceauthors Lucy Monroe Ariana Frazier Casey Mills Cassie Verano
and several other people who are Jane Henry, a whole bunch of other people.

(51:55):
And so like, if you were wondering what happened to Dario's daughter, her story is inthere.
But I was like, was helping one of those authors with Amazon ads.
And I was like, oh, you know, it'd be really cool if like, we could like do a do like aco-op trading thing.
I wonder if other people are interested in learning how to do Facebook and Amazon ads, andI could show them how to do it.

(52:18):
And then like trade promo.
Right?
Like trade newsletter swap, something like that, know, trailers.
And so, but like nobody was interested.
So like a couple of people, maybe like two or three people.
definitely interested to me like it because I again I agree it's like I'm always down tohelp somebody with some knowledge that I have or whatever because I'm just like we're all

(52:38):
in the same boat We're all trying to sell our books You know, we all want to see eachother succeed because I know what I love especially after coming from a film background
where it is kind of dog eat dog and you're kind of More competitive if they kind of youagainst each other.
It's like there can only be one
Yeah.
I loved about the romance world was that people were willing to help each other and Iloved that about this community.

(53:05):
And so I always love to see people saying like, oh, I have that skill or knowledge orknow-how.
I'm happy to help you out.
Or even like, know this person, I'm happy to make the connection or help you network andthat kind of thing.
I've always thought that's what's beautiful about the romance community.
starting a Discord because, you know, there are spaces, like you have author groups andthen you have, but they, like at one point, like early in the year or whatever, they

(53:34):
weren't being as safe, you know?
And so with people, you know, so I would, I was thinking about doing a Discord where wecould like, you know, people who want to collaborate, people who want to do anthologies.
And if you have your illustrator, you can share their info and stuff.
Also, write a beware type stuff like that.

(53:57):
Just to remove a lot of, it's not that there's gatekeeping in the community necessarily,but it's just like we don't have a cohesive place where we can all come together and share
knowledge in all of these inexperiences, you know, without it then.
Because like,
A lot of time, like with that whole hubbub about the audio book, the audio guy,overcharging newer authors and stuff like that.

(54:32):
OK, so Joe Arden, so Joe Arden was that Joe Arden situation where it was first revealedthat he was
grooming, I don't know if that's appropriate, but he was having an emotional relationshipwith a right author or whatever.

(54:56):
But then what came out of that was the more troubling allegations that his per audioproduction company were safe.
They were charged like newer people, like 15, 20,000 or whatever.
That's just like some astronomical amount.
Whereas the older people who knew better in the business, they were getting a much moreeconomical rate.

(55:22):
And that was more egregious than, you know, the actual, that's spun off of that.
This ties into one thing I've noticed about this industry is like there is no correlationbetween how much someone charges and their skill, how much somebody charges and their

(55:42):
experience, how much somebody charges and they're like, they're actually doing the workand like, you know, finishing it in timely fashion.
And like, it's such the wild, wild West that people are getting so left and right.
the perfect analogy.
Somebody told me that.

(56:04):
Talking about TikTok at one point, they was like, it's the wild, whereas I'm like, what inthe author world is that?
Everybody out here is going rogue.
Everybody is so wild out here.
Like you will lose, like people ghost you, you lose.

(56:26):
And then somebody, and then you have like people who, I have a couple of people on my teamwho like, I needed to be careful and like pay them what they're worth because they're
humble.
like, you know, they think that their skills aren't, you know, on par.
They don't have the, you know.

(56:47):
They don't have the audacity, quite frankly, is what they don't have to charge what someother people are charging.
And so I've always frustrated, especially because you think that, if I want the bestquality, then if I pay for it, then I will get something good quality that is absolutely
not.
As Moni can attest, I just had this person mid project change prices and miss deadlines.

(57:20):
told her that's unprofessional.
You don't, you can choose to update prices and say like, hey, I'm working on this rightnow.
We've already agreed on it.
But just I wanted to give you a heads up that on the next book, the price is going to goup, but you don't in the middle of what's already been negotiated, whether there's a
written signed contract or not.
You know, it's like your word, we've already sat down, discussed this, we both came to anagreement, you can't in the middle of a job.

(57:46):
Say, by the way, now I'm gonna up the price on you?
Like what?
No!
behavior.
I you know, and that's like, so that's kind of like under the writer beware type ofsituation.
And sometimes it's just like, people are just new and they don't understand, like businessthat they don't understand, like, just, just things that you that come with this business,

(58:16):
because it's such a open space.
especially now that you have TikTok and Twitter and threads out there.
And they say, oh, this person is great with graphic design.
Hire them or great in this person.
And you want to give somebody a chance.
And then, you know, it doesn't work out.
But like, I was thinking about doing a Discord, but then I was like, people are going tobe like, they don't want to do it.

(58:41):
Because when I even followed through, like, because that's my little thing, because I'd belike, I ain't doing this.
Thank
That's the kind of idea that I get and then I had to talk myself down from.
Like, no, what a job, you're a writer.
You're like, but now I do think that there is a real hole and we've talked about thisbefore how like RWA implodes and like, and they were never quite like for the indie

(59:06):
author.
But like, you know, they did both, but like there isn't an organization like that forindie romance authors.
It's kind of like, yeah, that's not, you know,
There are lots of people who are selling courses and they have like built communitiesaround those courses and those are like fantastic, like having, you know, I don't know

(59:30):
what the word is for it.
Like a advocacy, like a professional advocacy group, like, know, like Milk has.
Like Milk has.
They're like lobbies for Milk and supports Milk.
our own lobby.
We need a lobby.
This is like, for the amount of intelligent, savvy, smart women that are out here writingacross the whole spectrum of romance, right?

(01:00:04):
That you literally...
that we have not done this.
This has not been done on the indie side yet, right?
We need like a national organization for indie authors.
Somebody else do it.
I'll be on the board, but I ain't.
We need lawyers.
need, yeah.
There's like, and there's, you know, authors guild and there's ally.

(01:00:29):
there's, know, but like for romance in particular.
Because I also think that we all hit certain things, like in a different way.
I think we hit different things that different genres.
Like, like I often have questions about some of the issues that we run into.

(01:00:53):
Like we are predominantly women and we are like, we are sex positive.
We are talking about sex openly.
Like, and the world doesn't like that.
And yeah, and I wonder sometimes some of the challenges and stags that we hit, how like,how does that play in?

(01:01:17):
Mm-hmm.
That would be an interesting kind of like open forum discussion.
I would love to see something like that amongst like authors and like you said, be able tounderstand like how that is affecting like people's stories they're writing, but also even
just on the other side of that in their author life, how is that affecting them?

(01:01:39):
That's a can of worms.
I have things to say about that.
and then when those, like it's so many issues around that plus it's like women withintheir relationships being the one that is now the person with the more power in the

(01:02:03):
relationship and the different shifting of power dynamics in relationships.
Then especially being in the deep South, like there are so many people.
who were down here and also with the military community who have pen names, started pennames because of the stigma attached to being a romance writer.

(01:02:26):
And how that, like it was never me because my husband was always supportive of my dream.
And so I feel like it's so much baggage, like down with the patriarchy.
And sometimes we as women can be our own worst adversaries on that issue.

(01:02:50):
Like sex, but not that kind of sex.
Not sex between these type of people, not between like, how dare you be fed?
How dare you be, you know, disabled?
How dare you be whatever?
They want this, this escapism that does not, excludes people and not includes everybody.

(01:03:10):
So like we have to unpack a lot of stuff within our own community and still like be ableto and advocate at the same time.
Like Amazon is a great, know, they do help people create like great lifestyles, but at thesame time, the exclusivity agreement is atrocious.

(01:03:36):
OK, you.
Yeah.
See, that's why I opt to be wide.
Yeah, but then once you get in, once you, I just feel like when my.
trust me, I, because I mean, I've been in some, you know, like, written in some serieswith other authors where the consensus was everybody wanted to be KU, you know, and so the

(01:03:59):
books wanted to KU and the money is great.
And so I understand it gets hard to be like, I'm going to break away from the, you know,from that.
And it's okay if you can do the slow roll, the slow gradual ascent into authoredom whereyou slowly, and you already got, you're already like a lawyer or you already making

(01:04:22):
$100,000 a year and you don't need to support a family, then you can do bills, slowly billto your name gets that kind of traction that you're gonna get.
But for a lot of us, I've seen people in some groups that I took my books out and I putthem right back in because they were, it went downhill fast.

(01:04:49):
And I could see that because they orchestrated like that.
They're gonna orchestrate it that way because it benefits them.
But if it's a true subscription service, then like the music people, they would let us getpaid every time somebody download our book, just like the music people.

(01:05:19):
I wouldn't say just like the music people because that's a troubling, problematic industrythe way that they have...
the way that they pay artists within that.
don't they get paid every time they listen?
You listen to their song.
Not necessarily.
There's so many different things.
I mean, I don't know if you ever, mean, and this has obviously been some time ago, but TLCtried to really break it down for people back in the day when they were like literally,

(01:05:45):
you know, from what everybody else felt like making millions, but literally driving aroundin like Toyotas and like people are like, where's, you know, they're not getting that
money like that.
And it's kind of like, you know, thing because most of these like media companies don'topen their books to you to say like, here's what this
looks like here's what Split is or what we've made.
Like they're all all of these especially film.

(01:06:07):
They're good.
They keep like two sets of books.
If Peter Jackson who did Lord of the Rings, you know, had to sue New Line over gettingmoney that he was due, like what do you think that they're doing to the small like
artists?
Like they're not being transparent about like what's actually being made versus whatthey're paying you.
And that's across the board.
Like that's just how it is.

(01:06:30):
Yeah.
So I would, so yeah, but I just feel like we, like the monopoly they have is technicallyis not because you got Apple Books and it Kobo or whatever, but you know, you know, we,
it's no way you can like disengage yourself from KU without a huge plan.

(01:06:54):
I know we have to, like, wrap it up, because I know we're, over an hour, but I will justsay this to what you're saying.
What I've started seeing a lot of artists, a lot of artists, sorry, let me go back totalking about, specifically about authors.
What I've started seeing some authors doing that, you know, they're starting to grow theiraudiences, they're starting to sell direct.
Yes, they still put on, like, Amazon and all of that.

(01:07:16):
It's what I told you, like, Theodore Taylor, like, when I went to her site recently, shehas her retail, you know, and she's using stuff like BookFunnel.
because it's like you house it in book funnel where you keep your, you you always give theperson a choice.
She's offering like a discount if you buy direct from her, you know, it's an easy downloadprocess.
But I think that's where we have to get to in order to make sure, you know, obviously it'slike use those things, those platforms to grow your audience and then take that ownership

(01:07:44):
back.
Like set up those, cause the thing is like technology is so great now that you have theability to do that.
Yeah, that's true.
as soon as you said that, I looked at that.
And then I was like, what books can I safely remove to put on my website?
It was none, but it's fine.

(01:08:06):
Because I'm like, if they're still making good money on there, I'm going to leave themthere.
I didn't have one that was like zero sales.
yeah.
But Kate, your thoughts, please.
So I've been KU from the beginning and I understand why Amazon does it.

(01:08:36):
And if Amazon is acting rationally and fairly with authors and then like, I'm like,
everybody can run their business the way they want.
If you're being like reasonable and fair and I am like, there was a period now I hope I'mnot wrong about this, but there was like a period of time like last year where it seemed

(01:09:08):
like things are really rocky and bumpy and unpredictable and like and that's, you know,you want to partner.
who like is predictable, who like has rules and they abide by those rules.
like, as long as it like if that's what it felt like when I started in 2019, it felt, youknow, like, yeah, like, this is a sack.

(01:09:28):
This is, you know, a risk that I'm taking, you know, but I have a partner who's going tolike abide by, you know, like the rumors and like, I'm going to have some sort of like, I
don't want to say due process, but like something like that, and it's going to bereasonable.
And then like, it got weird.
And, but I am.

(01:09:50):
You're talking about when they were making the cuts on the like, like they were going downin the thing.
Yeah.
yeah, there was a lot of like weird stuff happening and and authors, you know being likethis happened and I got this notification and like it wasn't you know, it wasn't it was

(01:10:11):
alarming.
It was making a lot of sense.
Which is like whenever they asked me for my opinion.
I'm always like as long as you know, like
Yeah, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to follow the terms of service and I'm going to bea good, you know, a good partner.
but like, yeah, I also do not believe, like some people talk about how like Amazon is justso big, they don't care.

(01:10:38):
And like, they absolutely care.
Like, because I'll tell you, like, maybe like Jeff Bezos, or I don't know the name of theother guy, Andy something or the other.
Andy from I don't know, like, like, maybe they don't care specifically about the head ofKindle cares about Kindle.
And like, and whoever their bosses who like they're talking to, they absolutely care aboutthis business and about this business doing well.

(01:11:01):
Um, so like, yeah, I think that, yeah, like, I think we all sometimes forget, like, not Idon't want to speak for everybody.
Like, I try to remind myself like,
we are able to like publish and not and we get to end and make what is it?

(01:11:25):
I can't believe it.
Is it 60 % 70 % 70 %?
Yeah, 70 % we would like we're trying to probably would not be making 70 % like not.
Yeah.
And like and we wouldn't be making decisions that we wouldn't be able to like bring outfour or five six books a year if that's what we can do like

(01:11:46):
This is like unprecedented access to the market for individuals.
I would like more.
what I don't think people understand.
Like, yeah, right now, like, I mean, you know, and I think all of us over a certain age,when we remembered when the only way you could get a book was like going to the bookstore

(01:12:06):
or, you know, going to a library.
You know, now you have this unfettered access to so much media and the way you consume itthat it wasn't that way, not even say like 10 years ago, you know.
And so now, like you said, there's so many choices and decisions that you can make thatjust weren't available back in the day.

(01:12:28):
Yeah.
And Kate, I know why you tied, why you peter out.
It's that big ass cup.
That cup is too big.
What the fuck?
That's how I was doing it.
Give me my big dumb cup.
Why is this pregnant with that cup?
And this monogram too y'all.

(01:12:50):
It's a beautiful, I think it's a Stanley and it's pink and I love pink and it's an Arctic.
Okay, but it's big as hell.
It's bigger than Kate's whole upper body.
You
My son's been up since.
Yeah, I also have a son.
She she lived in the 25 pound cup every day.

(01:13:13):
There's actually I also have something called pots on the treatment for that.
I don't like arms with it.
You know, you have like the treatment is you have to drink ridiculous amounts of saltwater every day in order to increase the bottom so you don't pass out.

(01:13:35):
so like.
That is a huge cup.
The cup is so big.
It's the biggest cup on the planet.
It absolutely is better than my head.
before we close out, Kate, please tell the audience, like, where they can find you atonline, like, and even just share what your next release is.
So, katecwells.com.

(01:13:59):
I am in Kindle Unlimited, so you can find me on Amazon.
My next release is going to be The Wild Wolf's Rejected Mate, which is the fifth book inmy five-packs Wolfshifter Rejected Mate series, and it is tentatively slated to come out
on December 26th.
yay!

(01:14:20):
And if you want to get started on that series, begins with the Tyrant Alphas RejectedMate, which I don't
they should follow you or anything?
I'm on Facebook, I'm on Instagram, I'm on TikTok.
group.
Her reader group is pretty awesome.
I'm in her reader group on Facebook.

(01:14:40):
Yeah, they like they have they have a very encyclopedic knowledge of romance books andthey give good recs.
Yeah, where else am I?
That's it.
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much for taking time out to talk with us tonight.
And just, you know, have really great conversation.
We so appreciate it.

(01:15:01):
It was an amazing conversation.
to meet you, Bony.
It is so good to see you again, Kenya.
Congratulations on, oh shoot, what is it?
Yeah, look, I was like, love on the run.
So like that, thank you for that.
So it's a Beyonce album.
I was, but that's the, that's what, cause since she ran, I was going to do Runaway Love.

(01:15:27):
That was it.
But I'll say that for another, another book.
Cause you know, all my books are book titles.
Yeah, yeah.
That is a dapper looking gentleman on the cover as well.
Yeah, did I send you the ebook?
I think I did.
Check.
Hold on, I might like that's that's I don't know.

(01:15:50):
It's a good I'm good.
I saw that I was like, oh look at that.
I'll get in KU
You
I appreciate that.
Okay, well hope you guys have a good night and thank you guys again for joining us.
Kate!
good one, ladies.

(01:16:11):
Bye.