August 12, 2025 • 69 mins
In our second episode of season 1, join us in our talk with New York Times and USA Today Bestselling author Sarah MacLean. We discuss how her first book was written on a dare, the series she penned that we just can't put down, and her advocacy for the romance and book publishing industry.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Hello and welcome to the author spotlight with Kenya Gorey-Bell and myself, Mommy Boyce.
Today we have with us New York Times selling and USA Today bestselling author SarahMcLean.
We are so excited and happy to have you here speaking to us today.
I'm so happy to be here.
Thank you for having me.
yes, no, we were like, you are obviously, you know, so highly regarded in the romanceworld.
(00:28):
And rightfully so.
I mean, you have written amazing books.
You advocate so much for romance writers.
I know I loved hearing the story that you were basically wrote your first book on a dare.
That's true.
That's true.
I feel like everybody needs the push, right?
(00:50):
To do, everybody has a story about like why they first first said they were going to dothis thing.
And mine, mine was a dare.
I worked, I had friends who we had all kind of at the same time, it was right around whenTwilight came out and just like had exploded everywhere.
(01:11):
And we had all kind of
read all the articles about Twilight and read Twilight.
And then we were all out for drinks one night and I was like, this is just a romancenovel.
it's like, I've read thousands of these.
Like there's nothing special about this book.
In fact, like I could write this book.
(01:31):
And if only, if only I could have written that book.
And a friend was like, well, I dare you, I dare you to go home and write it.
And I had had like just enough alcohol.
that it sounded like a good idea.
And I had spent my youth dreaming of being a writer, but that doesn't seem like somethingthat people get to do.
That doesn't feel like a real job.
(01:53):
And I went home and I wrote the first chapter of my first book, which was a YA romance.
And then the rest is history, I guess.
love that.
I love it.
And you know.
she was very good at pushing me that friend.
So.
did it take you to write that first book?
it was fast.
(02:13):
was maybe two months.
And then because it was like a fun, it was a hobby, right?
it, you know, once they start paying, you know, once you have to start writing them to paybills, they start to get less fun to write.
Yes.
(02:35):
It was a hobby.
never really occurred to me that it would ever get published.
it never, there was so much about it that just felt like a fun thing that I was doing.
You know, I was 20 something years old.
I didn't have, you know, kids.
I didn't have a husband.
I just sort of was doing this thing for fun.
And, um, and it was a thing that I could really prioritize my time for because it gave mea lot of joy.
(03:01):
And I think that's the thing like,
People are always asking us as writers, like, how do you do it?
How do you get it all done?
And the truth is, you know, protecting that time is the hardest part, right?
Because, you know, when you are a writer, everybody sort of thinks that it's just an easy,like the muse comes and you just like open a vein and there it all is on the page.
(03:27):
And that's not true.
Like it's a job, it's work.
But I think we also often forget to tell ourselves that the time is precious, that's worktime.
And so we end up doing the grocery shop or, I don't know, picking up kids from school ordoing the things that, all that extra work instead of protecting the time.
(03:54):
had to start scheduling out my time like an appointment and telling family and friendslike, I am not available.
Exactly.
Think of this as my, if I was out to work at a place.
Yeah.
really do not consider it anything other really than a glorified hobby.
(04:17):
And despite from going from, you know, in the indie world, you know, you go from making nomoney to making money, they still think like you don't.
It's not a real job.
It's like, I can interrupt you any time of day.
(04:37):
in no matter what you're doing.
So I think one author said at one of our old, old RWA meetings, and it was a man and hesaid, you have to be ruthless with your time.
yes.
can be ruthless with their time, right?
Like, I mean, that's the thing we dance around, but like, you know.
(05:00):
he also said every writer should have a wife.
I was like, OK.
That's what he said.
since I don't have and he was like he was being very, very, like this is I since most ofthe majority of people here are women, I would say you have to be very ruthless with your
(05:22):
time.
So, you know.
true.
And I think we also, I think part of that is the mythology of the writer in the world.
And we play into this, right, as writers.
And it is a thing that I wish we would do less of is like, well, it's just all magic,right?
(05:43):
Like, it's, it's the muse and it's the like, the characters talk to me and like, it's I'mthe scribe and like all of that.
kind of woo woo shit is like, it diminishes the amount of like actual work it takes to sitdown and have the discipline and the skill to write a book from beginning to end.
(06:08):
And I think that we would never say to like a doctor or a lawyer, like, it's just themuse, right?
That like inspires you to like do the surgery.
Like, no, that's fucking craft.
Like it takes time.
exactly.
And I think you hit the nail on the head right there is craft.
Like even if you don't go to like say get an MFA or something like that, most of us stillall go through courses and classes.
(06:33):
We, you know, read other books in our genre.
We read craft books.
So it's a constant like learning to be better as a writer.
It's not like we just, you know, sit down like you said, and it just magically comes tous.
And I agree with you.
I wish we would
more into that.
And I will say the other thing that I wish, because I know I'm guilty of it myself, isthat we kind of diminish ourselves as writers when we're asked what we do.
(06:59):
And it's kind of like, I'm a writer, you know, like it's not like a real thing.
And I know I'm guilty of that myself.
where you, yeah, and you're, because you almost want to be like, don't ask me what Iwrite, because romance has been so, you, because what I usually get, you write smut.
you write erotica.
And I'm like, very
(07:20):
distinct category, very different thing.
I was like, all romance is not erotica, all of it's not smut.
I was like, you've got Amish romance, and that's definitely not smut.
I was like, there's so many sub genres, and I was like, to try to put everybody in a boxof what we write or to basically pass it off as like some vice or whatever, you know, is
(07:42):
insulting.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, but I think we're also not a monolith, Mommy, because I will, you know, as I'm doingmy children's hair in the morning, I'm like, are you telling people that your mother is a
bestselling author?
make sure you tell them that.
(08:03):
We're very proud of it.
Yeah, but and then also like I am and I am I'm kind of very much a woo woo person becauseyou know I have the music I have the muse and I also but I'm very you know on that side
(08:24):
but then I'm very serious about like the marketing and it's so many different parts that
you, I'm gonna call bullshit on that a little bit.
I'm sorry, like this is what I'm talking about.
You have the music and the muse, that's fine.
Like that's fine.
But the reality is you work your ass off like every night.
Like you do not sit around and wait for like inspiration to strike.
(08:48):
Like you're not channeling.
Like you're actually doing work.
Like this is work.
It takes time.
know you prioritize time.
know you are up very late at night working.
I know you like put your kids to bed and then go to work.
So like, don't diminish that.
That's real.
Like that's magic.
(09:10):
I think what we failed to make people understand is that there's a lot of work that goesin before you actually even start writing the actual book.
Like the research, especially for somebody like you Sarah that writes historical, there'sall the research that you have to do.
There's the plotting if you're somebody that's a heavy plotter.
Even if you're a panther, you still have to do all the character development, all thethings.
(09:32):
Those are things that you still have to put your butt in a seat for.
to start working on before a book ever comes into play.
And I think those are the things sometimes we don't really go heavily into and that'swhere you get the muse and they just came to me and they're speaking, know, whatever.
And there are, like, don't, I mean, obviously I can, I'm being kind of an asshole here,but like, I mean, yes, of course there are moments, like I talk all the time about the
(09:56):
thing that really blows my mind.
And if I think too much about it, it sort of like really does like galaxy brain me in thesense that like, I think a lot about if I didn't write the words that I wrote this
morning, right, today, tomorrow, those words wouldn't be the same words, right?
And I also do not plot.
(10:17):
my what I write today, tomorrow could have completely changed the book, right?
And that is a weird feeling, this sort of sense of like, if you don't do the work, like,and that and it is a little magical.
mean, it is magical.
I'm you know, when you hold your book in your hand at the end, you're like, can't believeI like, invented this whole world and these people like it is weird and magical.
(10:41):
And the words come at the most random time because I was working through a little issuewith what I'm writing now.
And then because I do the plotting and the synopsis and the outline and all of that, butit's very light.
So I give myself room to be able to explore as I'm writing.
(11:02):
And so I was having this little part where I was like.
They have like a mini dark moment that I'm supposed to write today.
And I was thinking, I was like, okay, so what really happened?
And so, and in the shower it came to me and I'm like, okay, I need to stick a pin in that.
Don't forget, don't forget, like this is what he says to her, like this really ruthlesslyhorrible thing.
(11:29):
And I'm like, my God, he's so evil.
Like I'm tripping on him, what he's saying.
And I'm like,
trying to make myself not forget it as I scrub my legs because it's got to be gone by thetime I finish showering.
I also have shower ideas and there is a thing called aqua notes and it's a pad and it'ssuction cups to the wall and it comes with a pencil and I have it it lives inside my
(11:56):
shower.
And sometimes when I have house guests, they leave me notes in there, which is nice.
I need to get that because I'm like, I'm like, this is.
cheap and like, don't know why, like you can get them on Amazon.
They're called Aqua Notes and they're terrific.
because I would be like really I would be like Claire Danes with all the notes in theshower because I do take a long shower.
(12:19):
when I'm getting my, my, my, my family knows when I'm getting close to the end, becauselike, it's the like, beats of the rest of the story start to like, you know, go up on the
wall, because you can also rip them off and like, stick them.
They're made of like some kind of fill, there's like some film on the paper, so you canlike stick it to the wall and like keep going.
And like, please don't touch any of the notes in the shower.
(12:42):
You're like, leave them alone.
Absolutely.
So you wrote the YA and then you went into the Is It Love by Number series.
She wrote my favorite book of all time.
then this is why.
so Sarah is my all time favorite author, as everybody knows.
(13:09):
She is my aunt.
And when I met her,
I cried all over her the first time and begged her for her number and begged her to do thefirst author spotlight.
Because Naima had this thing in Birmingham where they have like these authors come andtalk as a whole like little convention thing, whatever.
(13:33):
They invited Sarah and Naima took me as her plus one, like, okay.
And...
And it was amazing.
And that's when we met in real life.
And it was such an amazing experience.
And Sarah is just as genuine in real life as she is when y'all hear her own fated mates inhere.
And so, but she also got me back to writing because I read Nine Rules to Break, WhenRomancing a Wrake.
(14:02):
And it was like a fever dream.
I read that book.
And then the next morning, because I was deep, deep in my son's autism journey.
And I think at that point, it was around the time where he was saying his first words.
And so that's a big deal when your kids on the spectrum.
And my husband was like, you can get some you could you could take a break and you canlike read now.
(14:30):
And I read Sarah's book in one night.
I think I got it at eleven o'clock.
Like I'm a night reader after I read it.
But I stayed up all night reading that book.
And I came out the room, and it was just like angels were in the background.
And my eyes were glassy, and he said, I haven't seen you this happy in a long time.
(14:52):
And like a week later, I started writing my first book, which is Adored, my historicalromance.
after that.
That is because of Sarah McLane.
That's how y'all went from, she dared me.
She dared me.
I was like, Ross, to this day, I read that book, I reread it.
(15:13):
I don't know if y'all have books y'all go back and reread, but I reread it every year.
And it's my, it's my absolutely favorite historical romance.
And so, yeah, she's right there.
You like, she kind of scoops Joanna Lindsay over.
And that's a big undertaking.
I have to say.
Like, I I started off reading historical romance when I got into the romance genre and Iwas like 14 years old and I was reading people like Virginia Henley and like loved it.
(15:41):
Exactly.
And so like I loved.
Yeah, I loved your books for the simple fact that I felt like it even though it washistorical, there was something so fresh about your writing that was just like, my God,
like this it's historical, but it doesn't seem like it at the same time because these
Heroines are so like, you know, yeah, it just, and the stories just leap off the page.
(16:05):
Like you, cause I, for a while I'd kind of stepped away from historical and then when Ifound yearbooks, I was just like, my God, I'm falling in love with this all over again.
Like that was like one of my first loves was historical.
I still remember that I wrote to Virginia Henley and was like, she did.
I wish I, I know I have the email somewhere cause I emailed her.
(16:25):
Amazing.
I'm just so excited to get a response back from her.
Yeah, my first Virginia Henley, or no, I don't know if it was my first, but my favoriteVirginia Henley was The Dragon and the Jewel, which was about Eleanor of Aquitaine and
Simon de Montfort.
I loved it so much, you guys.
I loved it so much.
(16:46):
I ended up, I was in high school and I was in a European, I had a European history classand I was like, and we had to do some like project where we use primary source material.
And I was like, I'm going to do my project on Simon de Montfort.
Listen, he was a fucking terror, like an absolute like, colonist horror show.
like, for some, well, because Virginia Henley told me he was like, sexy and amazing.
(17:09):
I was like, he's obviously it.
And then doing the primary, the like, actual report on him, I was like, Oh, no, what'shappening here?
And then about two years ago, I, Jen and I were going to read that book for the podcast,because I hadn't read it since I was in like, high school.
yes.
It's best to keep that just in the memory.
Yeah, no, and that's the thing, like a lot of it now, like you read it, it's like, like Isaid, love her, love her.
(17:36):
But some of it, because she does use like historical figures, you're just like, maybe wewon't glamorize him so much anymore.
Yes.
to be kept here.
banana pants, but her, she had the, I don't know how close she stuck to the historicalfacts, but I was also very much into Simon de Monfort and the fact that he locked his wife
(18:01):
in that cell.
See, there you go, installing your buttons early.
And that's why I write dark romance now because her, Rosemary Rogers, all of them, thebooks were very, very dark.
And I wrote Kathleen Sutcliffe and she wrote me back.
(18:22):
But it was over a book that she wrote that was a contemporary called Darkling, I Listen.
And I didn't know she had had this like very
TV background, she had been like a soap opera writer and a episodic television writer.
And then she, but her most famous books were plantation romances.
(18:53):
But she was a lovely, a lovely lady.
between like the slave and the master?
Who was the...
I have a red shirt.
Okay.
Yeah, I got it.
hope that...
Yeah, okay.
It's the master will have the enslaved concubine.
(19:15):
OK.
And so in a couple of the books, I think.
And then so she stopped doing that.
man.
stuff.
But she wrote me the most lovely, she wrote me the lovely letter and she was like tellingme to like continue on my path to writing and all.
This was, I was very young.
(19:36):
I was in my early 20s.
It was, I was young and she was, she was just a lovely, but she had all the big hair.
She had the big Texas hair and all of that stuff.
I mean, she was just, and y'all when she retired.
She started doing that, the glass, the stained glass, she started becoming a stained glassartist.
(20:04):
And she does these big, these big portrait type stained glass art things now.
All right, Catherine.
Yeah
She has so many careers.
But Sarah, what got you into writing?
Because I know since you started with the YA, what made you choose historical romance asthe genre that you, the sub-genre that you wanted to write in?
(20:29):
my YA was also historical.
And I've always been a romance reader.
I mean, since birth, it feels like.
I have an 11-year-old now, and I started reading romance right around her age.
And I started with Virginia and Bertree Small and Joanna Lindsay and Jude Devereaux.
(20:52):
And now I think like,
Oh, I was young.
But it's funny because she has picked up, you know, I sort of am like, well, I, would behypocritical to tell her that she is not allowed to read those books.
So all you know, the only rule in our house is like, you have to tell me what you'rereading, I have to know what's in there so that like, I can sort of process like, is there
(21:13):
a conversation we need to have?
But so I feel like, you know, romance and I did, like I said, when I you know, there's
when I was in high school, we had to do some sort of project about ourselves and in it, itsaid, dream job, romance novelist.
(21:36):
I've always sort of dreamed of being a romance novelist.
It still hangs on the wall of my childhood bedroom, this project.
And so I wrote the YA really because of Twilight, because it was sort of like,
YA was happening and I was like, okay, well, you know, that was just what, you know, thatwas the dare.
(22:00):
And then I sold that and this is kind of going to get into like silly like writercontractual weeds, but I sold it and I sold it without an agent to a publisher and I
signed a really bad contract.
Like I should have had a lawyer look at it.
Like it was a very binding contract.
(22:20):
Gotcha.
And they had the option on the second book in that series because I had sort of designedit in classic romance fashion where like there were going to be three heroines.
And it was very clear, it's clear to anybody who reads that book that there are two otherheroines.
And so I sort of had this idea, but they only bought one and then the like claw, like theoption clause, which like it was so restrictive and...
(22:48):
they just, and I was like, okay, well, I can't write any more YA because of this contractright now.
Um, but I, now I have the bug, right?
And so I am going to write a romance novel and I'm going to write a romance novel that hasall of the things about romance that I love in it.
(23:10):
And I think the reason why nine rules like hits so hard for romance readers for like oldromance readers is that.
It is really like my own love letter to romance novels.
Like every single thing that's on Callie's list is something that in another romance novelthat I read as a reader and loved as a reader, a character did, or it's like a moment that
(23:36):
really just like scratches an itch for me.
And so, you know, the dual, the fencing, the drinking, the, you know, all of the stuff.
And so.
Um, I think that's why it just, it was me kind of getting all of that stuff out, like justpouring my love of romance onto the page.
(23:59):
And then like once that book was done, you know, I was very lucky that HarperCollinsbought that book and they bought three.
So, and I remember being in the meeting with my editor and her being like, we're buyingthree because there are three obvious books in this series.
And I was like, there are, but there is one book.
Um, so, and then it was sort of off to the races.
(24:22):
So, and I feel very blessed.
Like I feel I said, I've said this to Kenya, I've said this, you know, a million times onmy own podcast.
Like I feel like I was, that book was published, that book was bought in 2008.
Um, it was published in spring of 2010 and it, like, I feel like the
(24:46):
the door slam shut in a lot of ways on like historical and also traditional like massmarket romance like as like I snuck in.
And to give you a sense of that, like for people who are listening, like borders stillexisted when that book came out.
Yeah, and like eBooks were not, they were a thing, but they were not what they are.
(25:12):
And predated the like,
Boom and E that came with like 50 shades.
And so I think there was something very powerful about that book.
I'm publishing is so much more luck than any of us want to admit.
And the reality is that for that book, like I have a career, I have the career I havebecause that book came out at a time when literally romance readers could walk into
(25:43):
a million bookstores around the country and pick it off the shelf.
Like it was on the shelf for them.
And Borders closed between Nine Rules and the second book in that series, Ten Ways.
And so I can see, like, know, I know that the, saw the way sales shifted, right?
(26:04):
Immediately, just like the loss of Borders was such a huge loss for romance.
And then it took
a couple of books before eBooks had filled the gap.
But I just think, I did an event last night with, I don't know, there were 40 or 50 peopleon a Zoom and they all sort of said their favorites of my books and like half of them,
(26:29):
their favorite book was Nine Rules because it was like they had started with me there.
And I just think...
It is so rare now as a reader to find a new author and start at the very beginning oftheir career because it's hard to find, like discoverability is impossible.
And it just wasn't the case for me.
(26:49):
did change the game, like when a lot of the bookstores started closing and then evenBarnes and Noble started closing certain ones, you know, and it became like this, you
know, smaller thing to find like a bookstore period.
And then like, if you do have a bookstore, if you're in a brick and mortar store, you'renot going to have all 20 of my books.
They're going to be, you know, mostly three, you know, and so it's like whatever book ithappens to be is where you start.
(27:17):
And that's, and also I, I publish a mass market, which makes it even less likely thatyou'll see my books in a store.
So, um, you know, I think I'm incredibly lucky.
Like it is so much luck.
Yeah.
the other story of that manuscript is we sent it to a different editor at HarperCollinswho did not like it.
(27:38):
And instead of just like passing, she in the morning, the morning that she read thatmanuscript, they had had a meeting of all the editors and a different editor at
HarperCollins was like, I'm looking for a brand new author who I can like basically buildinto like a historical writer.
(28:00):
Mm.
She was like, this book isn't for me, but I'm going to bring it to my colleague who saidthis more.
it just, it was like all the little things happen in the right.
You know, the stars were just aligned that day.
I love that the editor did that though, that they didn't just like completely pass.
(28:22):
It's like, it wasn't for me, but maybe it's for you.
Because we all know that writing is subjective anyway.
And so like, I love that she passed it along.
Yeah, mean, I mean, and in the in the ensuing like then I spent 19 books with Avon and Iwas at many meals with that other editor.
And like, for a long time, you know, I didn't say a word because, you know, what do yousay?
(28:48):
But, you know, not like when I was later in my career and felt a little more steady andlike, not going to piss anyone off.
I did say to her, was like, you know, I've never thanked you for like, not just liketossing it in the bin.
Mm-hmm.
was like, well, we're very happy to have you on.
You know, I mean, what's she going to say to me?
(29:08):
She probably was like, wonder if she's ever going to say anything.
What I love about what you said was that 19 books, and then as a reader of your books,I'll segue into the future in a second because I'm excited about that.
talk about how you maintained
(29:33):
your reader following or the reader loyalty for all those many books.
I know what it is because you always talk about it.
But for the people who are listening, especially writers, talk to them how important it isfor because you look like what the fuck is she saying?
(29:57):
I would say like we started with the promise that you made with
Raustin and Callie.
You kept it all the way up through the Bare Knuckle Brawl with series, all the way upthrough Bum Shell, all of those books.
How important is it for you to maintain your brand and keep the promise of the premisethat you give in your book?
(30:22):
Yeah, I mean, I'm a when I, you know, I have a podcast too.
And at the beginning of every podcast, I introduce myself and I say like, I'm SarahMcLean, I read romance novels and I write them right.
And I said, that's an intentional order, right?
Like I am a romance reader first and always like for me, the books begin and end with thereader.
(30:43):
I know that there are a lot I think in in the
many years that I've been doing this and meeting many, many authors.
I think there are two kinds of authors.
I think there are authors who write for themselves and there are authors who write fortheir readers.
I do not want to place value judgment on either of those things.
think great books come from all different kinds, from all of that.
(31:03):
But what I mean by that is often I will say to say we have a series on our podcast wherewe talk to romance trailblazers, like the women who built the house, right?
Largely women who built the house.
And often I'll say, I'll ask, what about, were you ever in a position where you wrote abook and you thought to yourself, what if the readers don't come with me on this one?
(31:27):
And there are often, there are two answers to that question.
One is, absolutely, I have done that and I have, but I'm always very thoughtful about whatthe readers want, how the book serves the reader, how the book scratches the reader itch
and delivers the covenant.
delivers on the covenant we have with the reader, right?
(31:48):
And then there are people who are like, no, I never think about the reader.
Like for me, the book is beginning to end.
Like it is the book that I want it to be.
And then I put out in the world and it's not my problem whether people love it or not.
And I'm just like, I'm that first writer.
And that's because like for me, the books are important.
(32:08):
The books have been important in shaping me as a person, right?
Like they have been my friends.
during difficult times, they have guided me through so many big questions in my life.
Romance has been my partner in life in a lot of ways.
so I think Kenya, what you want me to talk about is that sort of covenant, right?
(32:33):
That is, I will always,
My hope is always to take you on the biggest emotional journey I can take you on, to takeyou to very high peaks and very low valleys and deliver you safely at the end to this
promise of these two people have found each other and will be happy forever.
(32:59):
We are okay.
Everything is okay.
And the world moves forward.
And I think...
readers respond to that obviously, but that's not special to me, right?
Like that's romance.
That's what we promise.
That's the job.
But also I think in my books, like what people call the McLeaniverse, like is a constantlyevolving world, right?
(33:24):
You can enter at any time at any book, you're going to meet
characters who live in all the different series, like the hope is that you will decide youwant to live in this world forever with me.
I do think like over the years I have lost readers, like as the books have become morepolitical, as overtly political, I feel like they've been political from the beginning,
(33:47):
but like more overtly political.
And I think I've gained readers for the same reason.
I think there, I have...
started being very much more overt about like historical accuracy representing the actualworld that existed in the 1840s in London, rather than like what old school romances would
(34:07):
like us to think.
And I think like the readership either comes with you on that or doesn't.
And I think you also have to decide as a writer, like you cannot be all things to allpeople.
And like, you have to cut loose some of that like dead weight.
Mm-hmm.
Um, yeah.
(34:27):
And your heroines are always like, I would say, Calparnia is probably the softest one.
But as she goes on throughout that story, she finds like every book I write basically isthis story.
You guys is like the soft girl who finds her power like that will never not be my catnip.
(34:53):
And
And by the time you get up to where we are reading bombshell, you do this thing in yourwriting where you see that soft moment like they had it at one point.
And by now, when you get to the book, like bombshell in particular in those books, thatsomething happened that enraged them, shifted their dynamic.
(35:21):
And then now we are
are actually...
where we see Capernia, she's on the cusp of that.
In these later books, you guys, you're seeing the women in the midst of it.
And it's quite delicious.
It's quite delicious.
And I feel like as your winner, I've grown with you as we've gotten to this point, right?
(35:43):
So, and you can talk a little bit about why it's important to empower women in your work.
I mean, why is it important to empower women in the world?
I mean, I think you're right.
think the bones of the McLean core story have been there since the beginning, since NineRules.
(36:07):
It's always about claiming space for me.
I have spent a lifetime, I am a larger person.
I've spent a lifetime trying to make myself small to be palatable.
Um, and for me, like every romance heroine that I have ever written, like has to claim,like learns to claim space or has already learned to claim space and is continuing to
(36:34):
claim space.
And the joy of romance novels is that I can then give her a love who is, wishes she wasmore filled more space, right?
Like, I'm not talking about physically, I'm talking about like,
just he wants her to be his whole universe.
(36:54):
Like if he could live inside her, he would.
And I think that that's really, for me, that's like the most romantic thing I can imagineas a partner who just like loves the space you feel.
And so I think that's important for women.
I think, you know, I don't know.
(37:16):
mean, I think...
I think romance has the capacity to do such important work.
I think that it has always felt to me like it is a genre that is asking us as writers todo important work.
(37:40):
And I take that really seriously.
I take the impact.
I I found romance
at a very, very difficult time of my childhood.
I was in sixth grade and my family was falling apart and romance was a steady for me.
I started with those kind of old school romances where the heroines went on a journey,right?
(38:09):
They were alone and they were being...
picked up to be taken to Scotland to be married by like some giant stranger and liketraveling through the woods and they were winning in the end.
Like it was, it was a story of triumph.
(38:29):
And so for me, that's bedrock to the genre.
And I think that's what a lot of us who have been reading the genre for a long time feellike that, that sort of like triumph over
possible odds is bedrock to what we do.
And I know how that story built me as a person.
(38:53):
Like I am who I am because of those books and that story.
And I want very much for us as a genre to take ourselves and that work seriously.
Yes, I definitely agree with you.
And I think that's one of the other things that I think resonates so much with your booksis even though it's an historical setting, those women could be today.
(39:14):
And that's what I love about is that, you know, given everything that's going on, I thinkit's great to read these strong women who are overcoming, who are not being put in a box,
who are allowing themselves to no matter what society says about them.
they're willing to be themselves and to step outside of what is the norm and what isexpected.
(39:37):
And so I think that's one of the things I just absolutely love about your books.
Yeah, I mean, it's, so important.
And I think, I mean, I could name a dozen writers who are doing that with every book rightnow.
And I guess, like, I wish, I wish more new readers had access to like, the discover, butit goes back to discover ability.
(40:02):
How do we put these books in front of, you know, young women and also young, young readersand sort of a like, kind of
people who've never been to the romance world before.
Like, how do we show them what these books have the capacity to do?
And I don't, you know, there's this big discussion now about romance, like, should it beteaching us?
(40:25):
Like, should we think of romance as a teachable lesson, like as a text that we learn from?
And I don't think that that's the job at all.
But I do think we have a responsibility as creators to the world.
No, yeah, I agree.
And so going forward, because we're still waiting on the fourth book in the Hillsbellseries, when are we going to see that?
(41:02):
I mean, it's up to me.
I expect that it will be turned in in the early winter, so like the kind of January,February.
And then it'll come out when HarperCollins puts it out.
No, I'm not done with it.
I'm working on it now.
Okay, so this is me just playing.
(41:23):
No, it was so I hope that it will come out earliest I can imagine it coming out is late2025, but I would expect that it will be out later than spring 2026.
now tell us about these summer storms and the switch of you going into is this a thriller?
What kind of contemporary?
(41:44):
What's going on here, Sarah?
Because I was like, listen, I understand, you know, I watch the tread issues from theoutside as a reader because, you know, all of my favorite authors, for the most part, are
(42:07):
either historical romance or, you know, Black and interracial romance now.
And so I'm just very curious what's going on there.
Yeah
It's a it is a novel.
It's a it's a commercial novel.
It's a bit it's like a hardcover summer read.
(42:28):
It's not a it's not a romance novel, though it is a McLean novel.
So there is a romance inside it.
But I am very I myself Sarah McLean am very careful not to refer to it as a romancebecause I know what I want a romance to be.
And that is not this book has a B plot that is a romance.
The A plot is not a romance.
(42:49):
Mm-hmm.
so it is about a family.
Um, there is, it's a wealthy family.
Um, the father is a tech kind of giant, a tech billionaire.
dies in a freak accident and all of the children, uh, go home to a private Island off thecoast of Rhode Island, which is where I grew up.
(43:11):
and they are there for one week and they discover that he has left them an inheritancegame.
And essentially they each have to complete a task.
Each one of them is given a task and they have to complete the task in order to inherit.
And so they are, they are trapped together on this private island.
(43:34):
terrible rich people.
Um, it's basically like succession plus knives out, but make it sexy.
And the main character, the protagonist is an estranged daughter who has not
has not been home for five years, has not had a relationship with her family for fiveyears.
Her father like exiled her from the island.
(43:55):
She gets home and the night before she goes to the island, she gets on the boat to go tothe island.
She has a one night stand with like a stranger in town and romance readers knowing wherethis is going.
She gets to the island.
I'm sort of excited about this because a lot of non-romance readers will probably readthis book and I'm sort of curious about like,
(44:17):
Is this going to be surprise for non-romance readers?
But I'm very happy to talk about it with romance readers because obviously this is how itgoes.
And she gets to the island and then the stranger turns up and he is her father'slieutenant and the judge and jury of this.
Wow
So that is the romance, but the A-plot is the battle of the family.
(44:42):
Okay, so I cut you off, but I'm sorry.
Will there be more hunting on the island with the Lieutenant Man?
Yes!
There is, it is a full, you will get the full McLean experience.
In fact, I will tell you the margin note from my editor when it gets to like the scene onthe island with the two of them was, so we are doing this.
(45:08):
We are doing this.
We are not, there is no like fade to black.
It is a full experience.
There is, I will say I was like,
This cannot be a classic McLean sex scene that lasts like three chapters.
I have to cut it down.
Like it's gotta be one solid chapter.
So.
(45:29):
Like my husband was...
Netflix, if you're listening, I want this to be turned into a series that I can bingewatch.
You know what, it's given, you gave the, don't know if y'all saw that Netflix thing withNicole Kidman.
That was, my God.
That, I immediately went there with this.
(45:52):
And now you're making me want to watch Succession.
And I deliberately held out because it reminded me of.
you know, narcissistic, malignant, narcissist billionaires and I didn't want to re watchthat.
for Wraithworth, I do kill mine right at the very beginning.
Yeah, so I'm like, every time I think about that, I think about that guy and the guy whoowns Fox News, that guy.
(46:21):
Yes.
succession is like a, it's not even thinly veiled.
It's basically the Murdoch family.
in the fact that he had women actually willingly subjected themselves to him is still mindboggling.
anyway, but I'm very kind of
have was about like before you started writing romance, I know you wrote, you were acolumnist for many different publications.
(46:46):
What was it that you were writing at the time?
Like what kind of stories were you?
So actually that wasn't before I was a writer.
I wrote a romance review column for the Washington Post for many years.
I was their romance reviewer, which was terrific and really fun.
And then, you know, book coverage did what book coverage does.
(47:09):
And that was the end of me over there.
And then, and I wrote a number of, I wrote like a sort of sex and gender column for Bustlefor a little while.
Um, you know, always through the lens of like sex positivity and, and feminine joy, likewomen and joy.
(47:32):
Um, and I think interestingly, a lot of that started kind of right before, um, the firstTrump presidency and then like, and then existed through that sort of four years.
Um, and so I hope that what will happen is we will see more of that coverage.
(47:56):
I hope that will be like something that comes back.
2016, is that when the book band organization that you were one of the founders of, whendid that start?
that only started, that's only like eight months old.
We started that early this year.
What is it?
November.
It's more like 11 months old, but we started that early this year because I mean, bookbands are a big problem and we expected that they would continue to be a big problem.
(48:26):
matter, like we were like, this is going to be a long fight because it's happening.
you know, on the ground at like a school district level.
So in all, in across the United States, mean, every, if you are right now listening andyou are in like the bluest of blue, like Sapphire blue States, I promise you there are
(48:49):
massive book bands afoot, in so in school districts.
Yeah.
yeah.
I mean, I'm in New York city and we have them here.
So we are, um, so we knew this was going to be a problem.
So we started building this like,
we thought, okay, well, what if we brought authors together across the country and we sortof started playing whack-a-mole, right?
(49:10):
Like a school district would announce a ban and like a local author would go in to likespeak on behalf of authors against book bans.
Now, now that we know that Project 2025 was the plan all along, this is, it's becoming amuch more, a much, a much...
more public fight, think.
(49:31):
think it will become one.
I mean, listen, there are going to be so many fights and I urge everyone to preserve theirown energy and their own sanity in whatever is to come.
But book banning is about to become a very big fight.
And it is going to be a big deal for us as romance writers because we are, mean,pornography is expressly discussed in Project 2025.
(50:00):
Romance fully falls on any romance that has sex in it at all falls directly under thedefinition of pornography that's in project 2025.
Any romance that covers that has queer characters at all falls under the 2025 definitionof pornography.
So even if you're writing closed door queer romance, that's pornography according to theheritage foundation.
(50:24):
And then that doesn't even get to
once you get into BIPOC creators, books that touch on race at all, books that touch onsocial justice at all, books that have abortion on page or reference abortion on page,
like these are all considered pornography under the definition in Project 2025.
(50:47):
And it expressly calls for the persecution, conviction and incarceration of
authors, distributors, publishers, booksellers, librarians, and teachers who get these,who put these books anywhere near like people.
(51:08):
Children under the age of 18 specifically, but I think this is going to become broader.
So my, now you've got, I'm sorry.
no no, i'm like, like how do i get involved?
Y'all
So what can you do?
What can we do?
This is the thing, right, that I keep thinking for two weeks I've been thinking like, whatdo we do?
(51:29):
Because I am that kind of person who's like, I am a hammer, where is my nail?
Right?
So here is your nail, everybody.
You can, on a very basic level, what I would recommend is purchasing books in print thatyou love.
There is, you guys are both indie writers.
This is
(51:50):
A lot of companies are going to comply in advance.
I expect Amazon will be one of them.
Like, so if you have eBooks that you love that matter to you, buy them in print so thatyou have them.
Um, I think that if you're an author, please join Authors Against Book Bands, which youcan join at authors against book bands.com.
(52:12):
Um, we are working literally, I'm having daily meetings.
Like we are working literally daily to try and figure out like.
how to prepare for what is to come.
And obviously we are preparing for the worst.
we, I hope it is not going to come to trans authors being arrested at events, but we arepreparing for it.
(52:33):
So join us because we need a army.
Yeah.
well, you know, I love mobilizing.
I love mobilizing.
So we will definitely add that to, jump on that immediately.
So expect many TikToks.
(52:53):
I will, I will reach out to my people.
not authors and like don't know what to do.
Bear witness to this because it is insidious and these, what is happening is these bandsare happening, they are illegal, they are in direct violation of the first amendment and
(53:13):
they are happening quietly at school board meetings while we all
don't know that they are happening.
You can go to your taxes, pay your local school board dollars.
Your school board meetings are public.
And even if you don't have children, you can go to them and sit at them and like bearwitness to the absolute excruciating boredom of a school board meeting because like deep
(53:41):
in the, the,
agenda of that meeting, I promise you some of these places are having real conversationsabout banning books.
And there are, yeah, and 71 % of Americans don't believe that book bans should happen.
So there are more of us than there are of them, but they're doing it quietly.
(54:02):
And your work, honestly, is to bear witness.
Like make sure you talk about book bans with your friends, your neighbors, your community,go to school board meetings if you can.
Women need to be told seven times to run for office.
Men only need to be told twice.
Surprise, surprise.
This is me telling you, run for office.
Like school boards need smart, committed, passionate, educated people who care about theFirst Amendment and care about kids seeing themselves.
(54:33):
And that is, now I will climb down from my soapbox.
No, you are doing important work.
This is like, you know, you have set a fire under me.
So I know hearing this, by the time this airs, that it's really gonna set a fire underother people, readers.
(54:56):
And like already, I'm just thinking of the list of people who I know who influencers whoneed to hear this, who are.
who need to join this organization.
So, and I'm definitely putting it in my newsletter and I never do my newsletter on time.
So, but I'm gonna do it this week.
Thank you so much for sharing that.
(55:16):
Yeah, definitely.
mean, I think we were both like listening just like intently because I mean, it is it'simportant and it's gonna not only affect the authors, but like you said, the readers,
you're not gonna be able to find your book, you know, our books or, you know, justdifferent things.
And so I definitely think it's on the it's on all of us to make sure that that doesn'thappen.
(55:39):
Yeah, I mean, it's vigilance, right?
And that's the scariest thing because it feels like we have to be vigilant about so much,right?
And but that's their goal to have us doing all of these things.
Yeah.
again, just many, school board positions run unopposed.
(56:03):
And what's happening is like these groups, Moms for Liberty, is just like sending in theirpeople, delivering them a list of books.
And like, I'm going to get back on my soapbox again, sorry.
But like one of the books that is most banned in the country,
is a picture book called, and Tango Makes Three, which is about penguins at the CentralPark Zoo.
(56:28):
And this is a true story, but like a few years ago, I don't know, five or 10 years ago,two male penguins at the Central Park Zoo found a rock and they started sitting on it,
like thinking that it was an egg, right?
And they would trade off, like sitting on this egg and like planet, or sitting on thisrock and the zookeepers gave them an egg, a penguin egg, and they sat on this rock and the
(56:50):
penguin,
egg hatched and the city named the penguin the baby penguin tango.
And like, this was like, I mean, it is the most charming story.
And they made a picture book about it because it's true.
This happened, right?
This book is banned in almost every state in at least one school district in almost everystate because of homosexual content.
(57:17):
my god.
It's a picture book about penguins.
We are a nonsense country.
So yeah.
what, we are not serious people.
This is what I, I understand this.
in the world.
that's not one of them.
No, that's lovely.
That is a delightful story.
(57:39):
It's so, it's so beautiful.
So this is what we're fighting against.
It's crazy.
there are, and like, we just, I promise you there are people out there, I'm looking at twopeople who would make terrific school board members.
Like,
Well now I'm all fired up, I'm just like, let me go out here and see if there are anyseeds up.
(58:03):
Yeah.
like it's also listen, tell me when you run for school board.
This is me saying this to all of your listeners, too.
Like if you are running for school board, let me know.
I can mobilize a phone banking operation for you.
We will get you elected.
I'm not used to be a substitute here, so I know, like, what we're dealing with here.
Yeah.
mean, like that would be that that's all I want.
(58:26):
I just want sane people to sit on school boards for all the reasons Kenya talks about to.
mean, like school boards are so important.
Yeah.
No, they really are.
okay, so let's segue into the last question because we're a little over.
But and I know you're very busy, Momin.
(58:49):
I could talk to you all day.
I could move into, Sarah, if you let me.
I don't clean, though.
What have you read and loved this year?
What have I read and loved it this year?
I'm looking at my list.
(59:10):
Okay.
I am, what have I read and loved this year?
I really, really, there are three historicals that I am recommending to basicallyeverybody who will listen to me right now.
So I will start with those since we talk so much about historicals.
Lorraine Heath's book is not out until New Year's Eve, but Kenya, you're, mean,
(59:32):
Moni, I don't know what kind of books you love, but I know Kenya will love this book.
The heroine is a hot air balloonist and she crash lands her hot air balloon on a desertedisland inhabited by a Duke who hates himself.
Like, just don't even look at me.
I hate myself.
It's perfect.
Like, it's perfect.
(59:54):
Right after the election.
And I was like, there is no dream.
more like this is now my like, there's nothing I want to do more than like currently be acrashed hot air balloonist on a deserted island with a Duke who hates himself.
And that's a tempest of desire.
(01:00:15):
That's what's the name, I just looked it up.
And then Julianne Long has a book out now called The Beast Takes a Bride that has one ofthe best beginnings to a romance novel I've ever read.
She begins and she is in she is in prison in Newgate Prison with a bunch of other women.
(01:00:38):
And like it is a terrific beginning.
my god, yeah that sounds amazing.
That's a second chance love story.
Sorry.
She's great.
Well, you should read this new one.
It's terrific.
my God, see?
Okay, is Sarah coming with him?
Okay.
(01:01:00):
And then the third one is Elizabeth Hoyt has a new book coming out, which Elizabeth Hoytfans have been waiting, I think for two or three years for a new book from her.
And this one is a real banger.
Like again, a hero who hates himself.
This is all I want out of life right now.
It's just like a bunch of heroes who hate themselves.
Like don't even look at me.
Don't touch me.
I'm not worthy.
That's exactly the vibe I'm looking for.
(01:01:22):
But also if you love like vigilante women, this is a book for you.
The Heroine is like a member of like a vigilante like long, centuries old, like women whodo crime and protect other women kind of group.
So that was really for me too.
And that one's called No Ordinary Duchess.
(01:01:44):
Okay, so is that already out or is it coming out?
That is out next week, I think.
Okay, because you know she really did that whole little thing with the with the Kate like.
yeah, what was that series?
Why?
my God, you just pushed the name of that series out of my head.
(01:02:06):
That's her head.
Oh.
just right out of my head.
Yes, but yes.
to find the books now, but I remember that first book where he was very blind and like,there's this scene.
So crazy.
And she's sitting by the fireplace, counting, does the little Ralston thing.
(01:02:30):
He's, oh my God.
Wicked Intentions, Notorious Pleasures.
What's the name?
The Maiden Lane series, y'all.
It's basically Victoria.
It's it's like historical Batman is the series.
It's bananas.
It's so fun.
It was so good.
Which one of your series is your favorite?
(01:02:56):
always say to people who've never read me that they should read The Bare Knuckle Bastards.
I think that's a series that really links what I was doing to what I am doing.
If you like part of it, you can go back, and if you like a different part of it, you cango forward.
Wait, but I have other books.
You asked me for recommendations, so I have other books I wanna recommend.
(01:03:18):
Okay, Nikki Payne's Sex, Lies, and Sensibility is one of my favorite books of the year.
It's a renovation romance set in Maine.
The Maine character, that she and her father die, she her sister go to the funeral andthey discover they are the other family.
And like their father has left them a dilapidated like house in Maine.
(01:03:42):
And so these two like deeply city girls have to move to Maine to like, cause she's alsohad like an internet.
She's basically had like a sex tape.
problem on the internet.
And they end up in Maine and there is this great hero who's like squatting on their landand on the land in Maine and like he's faking being a park ranger.
(01:04:06):
And it's again, like very crazy and fun.
And also, and I really loved that.
And then I read this other book this year that I really, loved and it's like, it's so
Weird.
It's a very weird book, but it's called Rules for Ghosting by Shelley J.
(01:04:27):
Shor.
And the premise is the hero is like his parents, his family owns like a funeral home andhe can see ghosts.
And so he, um, like he goes home, there's like a
there was a holiday dinner, like a Passover Seder, and at the Passover Seder, his momannounces that she is leaving their father for the rabbi, who is also leaving her husband.
(01:05:00):
And they announce this at Passover dinner, like all the husbands are at the table, all thekids are at the table, and they make this announcement.
And there's a stranger who the family has collected into the family to this chaos dinner.
and the hero and the stranger sort of like fall in love, but like the hero has to go homeand like work.
(01:05:22):
The hero is a doula and he gets sort of sucked into this world of like being part, workingin the family funeral home.
And like, it's really fascinating.
It's a book, again, it sort of does this.
it does this really interesting thing where it like teaches us what romance can be, likehow big of a story romance can tell.
(01:05:45):
Because like, if you think about it, like being a doula, pregnancy doula, right, a birthdoula, like, it feels like funeral homework would be like the absolute opposite of that.
You can think of anything even like further afield, but like, there is something very likebeautiful about this book and this
(01:06:07):
the other hero who is a stranger but actually ends up working in the funeral home too,fall for each other in this like really lovely context.
And then there's a ghost and there's like this crazy family dynamic and like there's somuch happening.
It's so layered.
And it's really a book that surprised me.
(01:06:28):
didn't know what to expect.
And I got a really beautiful love story wrapped up in this like big community.
And also I'm really fascinated right now with how romance is handling death.
so like, there it is.
So those are two others that I've really loved.
I love that.
All of those sound good.
(01:06:49):
You always give the book great book rate, you guys.
And that's why I have been listening to Faded Maze.
When did y'all start?
Did y'all start in 2018?
think so, yeah.
We're in the seventh year now, so yeah.
2018.
And I was also stalking you back then, that's, that's, that's another thing.
(01:07:12):
That's not why I started.
That might've been why I started.
That wasn't why I continued.
But, but Sarah always has, like I call Jen grumpy cat and Sarah is more like the lightereffervescent.
Like y'all get quickly Sarah.
You're getting Prickly Sarah today.
well, Sarah is, and Jen's our grumpy cat.
(01:07:34):
That's what I love, Jen.
She's the grumpy cat, and Sarah is like, light and effervescent, like me.
So, but Sarah, thank you so much for joining us.
I hope you had a good time.
you please tell everyone where they can follow you like online and like
I am like everyone I have left Twitter, so you can't find me there.
(01:07:58):
I am on Instagram and Blue Sky and threads all as at Sarah McLean, whole name.
And then if you like romance novel podcasts, and it sounds like you do, you can listen toFaded Mates, which is my podcast every Wednesday.
There is a new episode.
(01:08:18):
So we just.
This week, tomorrow, I mean, I don't know when this episode goes out, but as we wererecording, tomorrow is our best of the year episode.
So you can hear me talk more about the books I recommended.
Well, thank you again for joining us.
greatly appreciate it.
It's been a pleasure.
(01:08:39):
and thanks for listening everyone.
I'm so happy.
Hello and welcome to the author spotlight with Kenya Gorey-Bell and myself, Mommy Boyce.
Today we have with us New York Times selling and USA Today bestselling author SarahMcLean.
We are so excited and happy to have you here speaking to us today.
I'm so happy to be here.
Thank you for having me.
yes, no, we were like, you are obviously, you know, so highly regarded in the romanceworld.
(00:28):
And rightfully so.
I mean, you have written amazing books.
You advocate so much for romance writers.
I know I loved hearing the story that you were basically wrote your first book on a dare.
That's true.
That's true.
I feel like everybody needs the push, right?
(00:50):
To do, everybody has a story about like why they first first said they were going to dothis thing.
And mine, mine was a dare.
I worked, I had friends who we had all kind of at the same time, it was right around whenTwilight came out and just like had exploded everywhere.
(01:11):
And we had all kind of
read all the articles about Twilight and read Twilight.
And then we were all out for drinks one night and I was like, this is just a romancenovel.
it's like, I've read thousands of these.
Like there's nothing special about this book.
In fact, like I could write this book.
(01:31):
And if only, if only I could have written that book.
And a friend was like, well, I dare you, I dare you to go home and write it.
And I had had like just enough alcohol.
that it sounded like a good idea.
And I had spent my youth dreaming of being a writer, but that doesn't seem like somethingthat people get to do.
That doesn't feel like a real job.
(01:53):
And I went home and I wrote the first chapter of my first book, which was a YA romance.
And then the rest is history, I guess.
love that.
I love it.
And you know.
she was very good at pushing me that friend.
So.
did it take you to write that first book?
it was fast.
(02:13):
was maybe two months.
And then because it was like a fun, it was a hobby, right?
it, you know, once they start paying, you know, once you have to start writing them to paybills, they start to get less fun to write.
Yes.
(02:35):
It was a hobby.
never really occurred to me that it would ever get published.
it never, there was so much about it that just felt like a fun thing that I was doing.
You know, I was 20 something years old.
I didn't have, you know, kids.
I didn't have a husband.
I just sort of was doing this thing for fun.
And, um, and it was a thing that I could really prioritize my time for because it gave mea lot of joy.
(03:01):
And I think that's the thing like,
People are always asking us as writers, like, how do you do it?
How do you get it all done?
And the truth is, you know, protecting that time is the hardest part, right?
Because, you know, when you are a writer, everybody sort of thinks that it's just an easy,like the muse comes and you just like open a vein and there it all is on the page.
(03:27):
And that's not true.
Like it's a job, it's work.
But I think we also often forget to tell ourselves that the time is precious, that's worktime.
And so we end up doing the grocery shop or, I don't know, picking up kids from school ordoing the things that, all that extra work instead of protecting the time.
(03:54):
had to start scheduling out my time like an appointment and telling family and friendslike, I am not available.
Exactly.
Think of this as my, if I was out to work at a place.
Yeah.
really do not consider it anything other really than a glorified hobby.
(04:17):
And despite from going from, you know, in the indie world, you know, you go from making nomoney to making money, they still think like you don't.
It's not a real job.
It's like, I can interrupt you any time of day.
(04:37):
in no matter what you're doing.
So I think one author said at one of our old, old RWA meetings, and it was a man and hesaid, you have to be ruthless with your time.
yes.
can be ruthless with their time, right?
Like, I mean, that's the thing we dance around, but like, you know.
(05:00):
he also said every writer should have a wife.
I was like, OK.
That's what he said.
since I don't have and he was like he was being very, very, like this is I since most ofthe majority of people here are women, I would say you have to be very ruthless with your
(05:22):
time.
So, you know.
true.
And I think we also, I think part of that is the mythology of the writer in the world.
And we play into this, right, as writers.
And it is a thing that I wish we would do less of is like, well, it's just all magic,right?
(05:43):
Like, it's, it's the muse and it's the like, the characters talk to me and like, it's I'mthe scribe and like all of that.
kind of woo woo shit is like, it diminishes the amount of like actual work it takes to sitdown and have the discipline and the skill to write a book from beginning to end.
(06:08):
And I think that we would never say to like a doctor or a lawyer, like, it's just themuse, right?
That like inspires you to like do the surgery.
Like, no, that's fucking craft.
Like it takes time.
exactly.
And I think you hit the nail on the head right there is craft.
Like even if you don't go to like say get an MFA or something like that, most of us stillall go through courses and classes.
(06:33):
We, you know, read other books in our genre.
We read craft books.
So it's a constant like learning to be better as a writer.
It's not like we just, you know, sit down like you said, and it just magically comes tous.
And I agree with you.
I wish we would
more into that.
And I will say the other thing that I wish, because I know I'm guilty of it myself, isthat we kind of diminish ourselves as writers when we're asked what we do.
(06:59):
And it's kind of like, I'm a writer, you know, like it's not like a real thing.
And I know I'm guilty of that myself.
where you, yeah, and you're, because you almost want to be like, don't ask me what Iwrite, because romance has been so, you, because what I usually get, you write smut.
you write erotica.
And I'm like, very
(07:20):
distinct category, very different thing.
I was like, all romance is not erotica, all of it's not smut.
I was like, you've got Amish romance, and that's definitely not smut.
I was like, there's so many sub genres, and I was like, to try to put everybody in a boxof what we write or to basically pass it off as like some vice or whatever, you know, is
(07:42):
insulting.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, but I think we're also not a monolith, Mommy, because I will, you know, as I'm doingmy children's hair in the morning, I'm like, are you telling people that your mother is a
bestselling author?
make sure you tell them that.
(08:03):
We're very proud of it.
Yeah, but and then also like I am and I am I'm kind of very much a woo woo person becauseyou know I have the music I have the muse and I also but I'm very you know on that side
(08:24):
but then I'm very serious about like the marketing and it's so many different parts that
you, I'm gonna call bullshit on that a little bit.
I'm sorry, like this is what I'm talking about.
You have the music and the muse, that's fine.
Like that's fine.
But the reality is you work your ass off like every night.
Like you do not sit around and wait for like inspiration to strike.
(08:48):
Like you're not channeling.
Like you're actually doing work.
Like this is work.
It takes time.
know you prioritize time.
know you are up very late at night working.
I know you like put your kids to bed and then go to work.
So like, don't diminish that.
That's real.
Like that's magic.
(09:10):
I think what we failed to make people understand is that there's a lot of work that goesin before you actually even start writing the actual book.
Like the research, especially for somebody like you Sarah that writes historical, there'sall the research that you have to do.
There's the plotting if you're somebody that's a heavy plotter.
Even if you're a panther, you still have to do all the character development, all thethings.
(09:32):
Those are things that you still have to put your butt in a seat for.
to start working on before a book ever comes into play.
And I think those are the things sometimes we don't really go heavily into and that'swhere you get the muse and they just came to me and they're speaking, know, whatever.
And there are, like, don't, I mean, obviously I can, I'm being kind of an asshole here,but like, I mean, yes, of course there are moments, like I talk all the time about the
(09:56):
thing that really blows my mind.
And if I think too much about it, it sort of like really does like galaxy brain me in thesense that like, I think a lot about if I didn't write the words that I wrote this
morning, right, today, tomorrow, those words wouldn't be the same words, right?
And I also do not plot.
(10:17):
my what I write today, tomorrow could have completely changed the book, right?
And that is a weird feeling, this sort of sense of like, if you don't do the work, like,and that and it is a little magical.
mean, it is magical.
I'm you know, when you hold your book in your hand at the end, you're like, can't believeI like, invented this whole world and these people like it is weird and magical.
(10:41):
And the words come at the most random time because I was working through a little issuewith what I'm writing now.
And then because I do the plotting and the synopsis and the outline and all of that, butit's very light.
So I give myself room to be able to explore as I'm writing.
(11:02):
And so I was having this little part where I was like.
They have like a mini dark moment that I'm supposed to write today.
And I was thinking, I was like, okay, so what really happened?
And so, and in the shower it came to me and I'm like, okay, I need to stick a pin in that.
Don't forget, don't forget, like this is what he says to her, like this really ruthlesslyhorrible thing.
(11:29):
And I'm like, my God, he's so evil.
Like I'm tripping on him, what he's saying.
And I'm like,
trying to make myself not forget it as I scrub my legs because it's got to be gone by thetime I finish showering.
I also have shower ideas and there is a thing called aqua notes and it's a pad and it'ssuction cups to the wall and it comes with a pencil and I have it it lives inside my
(11:56):
shower.
And sometimes when I have house guests, they leave me notes in there, which is nice.
I need to get that because I'm like, I'm like, this is.
cheap and like, don't know why, like you can get them on Amazon.
They're called Aqua Notes and they're terrific.
because I would be like really I would be like Claire Danes with all the notes in theshower because I do take a long shower.
(12:19):
when I'm getting my, my, my, my family knows when I'm getting close to the end, becauselike, it's the like, beats of the rest of the story start to like, you know, go up on the
wall, because you can also rip them off and like, stick them.
They're made of like some kind of fill, there's like some film on the paper, so you canlike stick it to the wall and like keep going.
And like, please don't touch any of the notes in the shower.
(12:42):
You're like, leave them alone.
Absolutely.
So you wrote the YA and then you went into the Is It Love by Number series.
She wrote my favorite book of all time.
then this is why.
so Sarah is my all time favorite author, as everybody knows.
(13:09):
She is my aunt.
And when I met her,
I cried all over her the first time and begged her for her number and begged her to do thefirst author spotlight.
Because Naima had this thing in Birmingham where they have like these authors come andtalk as a whole like little convention thing, whatever.
(13:33):
They invited Sarah and Naima took me as her plus one, like, okay.
And...
And it was amazing.
And that's when we met in real life.
And it was such an amazing experience.
And Sarah is just as genuine in real life as she is when y'all hear her own fated mates inhere.
And so, but she also got me back to writing because I read Nine Rules to Break, WhenRomancing a Wrake.
(14:02):
And it was like a fever dream.
I read that book.
And then the next morning, because I was deep, deep in my son's autism journey.
And I think at that point, it was around the time where he was saying his first words.
And so that's a big deal when your kids on the spectrum.
And my husband was like, you can get some you could you could take a break and you canlike read now.
(14:30):
And I read Sarah's book in one night.
I think I got it at eleven o'clock.
Like I'm a night reader after I read it.
But I stayed up all night reading that book.
And I came out the room, and it was just like angels were in the background.
And my eyes were glassy, and he said, I haven't seen you this happy in a long time.
(14:52):
And like a week later, I started writing my first book, which is Adored, my historicalromance.
after that.
That is because of Sarah McLane.
That's how y'all went from, she dared me.
She dared me.
I was like, Ross, to this day, I read that book, I reread it.
(15:13):
I don't know if y'all have books y'all go back and reread, but I reread it every year.
And it's my, it's my absolutely favorite historical romance.
And so, yeah, she's right there.
You like, she kind of scoops Joanna Lindsay over.
And that's a big undertaking.
I have to say.
Like, I I started off reading historical romance when I got into the romance genre and Iwas like 14 years old and I was reading people like Virginia Henley and like loved it.
(15:41):
Exactly.
And so like I loved.
Yeah, I loved your books for the simple fact that I felt like it even though it washistorical, there was something so fresh about your writing that was just like, my God,
like this it's historical, but it doesn't seem like it at the same time because these
Heroines are so like, you know, yeah, it just, and the stories just leap off the page.
(16:05):
Like you, cause I, for a while I'd kind of stepped away from historical and then when Ifound yearbooks, I was just like, my God, I'm falling in love with this all over again.
Like that was like one of my first loves was historical.
I still remember that I wrote to Virginia Henley and was like, she did.
I wish I, I know I have the email somewhere cause I emailed her.
(16:25):
Amazing.
I'm just so excited to get a response back from her.
Yeah, my first Virginia Henley, or no, I don't know if it was my first, but my favoriteVirginia Henley was The Dragon and the Jewel, which was about Eleanor of Aquitaine and
Simon de Montfort.
I loved it so much, you guys.
I loved it so much.
(16:46):
I ended up, I was in high school and I was in a European, I had a European history classand I was like, and we had to do some like project where we use primary source material.
And I was like, I'm going to do my project on Simon de Montfort.
Listen, he was a fucking terror, like an absolute like, colonist horror show.
like, for some, well, because Virginia Henley told me he was like, sexy and amazing.
(17:09):
I was like, he's obviously it.
And then doing the primary, the like, actual report on him, I was like, Oh, no, what'shappening here?
And then about two years ago, I, Jen and I were going to read that book for the podcast,because I hadn't read it since I was in like, high school.
yes.
It's best to keep that just in the memory.
Yeah, no, and that's the thing, like a lot of it now, like you read it, it's like, like Isaid, love her, love her.
(17:36):
But some of it, because she does use like historical figures, you're just like, maybe wewon't glamorize him so much anymore.
Yes.
to be kept here.
banana pants, but her, she had the, I don't know how close she stuck to the historicalfacts, but I was also very much into Simon de Monfort and the fact that he locked his wife
(18:01):
in that cell.
See, there you go, installing your buttons early.
And that's why I write dark romance now because her, Rosemary Rogers, all of them, thebooks were very, very dark.
And I wrote Kathleen Sutcliffe and she wrote me back.
(18:22):
But it was over a book that she wrote that was a contemporary called Darkling, I Listen.
And I didn't know she had had this like very
TV background, she had been like a soap opera writer and a episodic television writer.
And then she, but her most famous books were plantation romances.
(18:53):
But she was a lovely, a lovely lady.
between like the slave and the master?
Who was the...
I have a red shirt.
Okay.
Yeah, I got it.
hope that...
Yeah, okay.
It's the master will have the enslaved concubine.
(19:15):
OK.
And so in a couple of the books, I think.
And then so she stopped doing that.
man.
stuff.
But she wrote me the most lovely, she wrote me the lovely letter and she was like tellingme to like continue on my path to writing and all.
This was, I was very young.
(19:36):
I was in my early 20s.
It was, I was young and she was, she was just a lovely, but she had all the big hair.
She had the big Texas hair and all of that stuff.
I mean, she was just, and y'all when she retired.
She started doing that, the glass, the stained glass, she started becoming a stained glassartist.
(20:04):
And she does these big, these big portrait type stained glass art things now.
All right, Catherine.
Yeah
She has so many careers.
But Sarah, what got you into writing?
Because I know since you started with the YA, what made you choose historical romance asthe genre that you, the sub-genre that you wanted to write in?
(20:29):
my YA was also historical.
And I've always been a romance reader.
I mean, since birth, it feels like.
I have an 11-year-old now, and I started reading romance right around her age.
And I started with Virginia and Bertree Small and Joanna Lindsay and Jude Devereaux.
(20:52):
And now I think like,
Oh, I was young.
But it's funny because she has picked up, you know, I sort of am like, well, I, would behypocritical to tell her that she is not allowed to read those books.
So all you know, the only rule in our house is like, you have to tell me what you'rereading, I have to know what's in there so that like, I can sort of process like, is there
(21:13):
a conversation we need to have?
But so I feel like, you know, romance and I did, like I said, when I you know, there's
when I was in high school, we had to do some sort of project about ourselves and in it, itsaid, dream job, romance novelist.
(21:36):
I've always sort of dreamed of being a romance novelist.
It still hangs on the wall of my childhood bedroom, this project.
And so I wrote the YA really because of Twilight, because it was sort of like,
YA was happening and I was like, okay, well, you know, that was just what, you know, thatwas the dare.
(22:00):
And then I sold that and this is kind of going to get into like silly like writercontractual weeds, but I sold it and I sold it without an agent to a publisher and I
signed a really bad contract.
Like I should have had a lawyer look at it.
Like it was a very binding contract.
(22:20):
Gotcha.
And they had the option on the second book in that series because I had sort of designedit in classic romance fashion where like there were going to be three heroines.
And it was very clear, it's clear to anybody who reads that book that there are two otherheroines.
And so I sort of had this idea, but they only bought one and then the like claw, like theoption clause, which like it was so restrictive and...
(22:48):
they just, and I was like, okay, well, I can't write any more YA because of this contractright now.
Um, but I, now I have the bug, right?
And so I am going to write a romance novel and I'm going to write a romance novel that hasall of the things about romance that I love in it.
(23:10):
And I think the reason why nine rules like hits so hard for romance readers for like oldromance readers is that.
It is really like my own love letter to romance novels.
Like every single thing that's on Callie's list is something that in another romance novelthat I read as a reader and loved as a reader, a character did, or it's like a moment that
(23:36):
really just like scratches an itch for me.
And so, you know, the dual, the fencing, the drinking, the, you know, all of the stuff.
And so.
Um, I think that's why it just, it was me kind of getting all of that stuff out, like justpouring my love of romance onto the page.
(23:59):
And then like once that book was done, you know, I was very lucky that HarperCollinsbought that book and they bought three.
So, and I remember being in the meeting with my editor and her being like, we're buyingthree because there are three obvious books in this series.
And I was like, there are, but there is one book.
Um, so, and then it was sort of off to the races.
(24:22):
So, and I feel very blessed.
Like I feel I said, I've said this to Kenya, I've said this, you know, a million times onmy own podcast.
Like I feel like I was, that book was published, that book was bought in 2008.
Um, it was published in spring of 2010 and it, like, I feel like the
(24:46):
the door slam shut in a lot of ways on like historical and also traditional like massmarket romance like as like I snuck in.
And to give you a sense of that, like for people who are listening, like borders stillexisted when that book came out.
Yeah, and like eBooks were not, they were a thing, but they were not what they are.
(25:12):
And predated the like,
Boom and E that came with like 50 shades.
And so I think there was something very powerful about that book.
I'm publishing is so much more luck than any of us want to admit.
And the reality is that for that book, like I have a career, I have the career I havebecause that book came out at a time when literally romance readers could walk into
(25:43):
a million bookstores around the country and pick it off the shelf.
Like it was on the shelf for them.
And Borders closed between Nine Rules and the second book in that series, Ten Ways.
And so I can see, like, know, I know that the, saw the way sales shifted, right?
(26:04):
Immediately, just like the loss of Borders was such a huge loss for romance.
And then it took
a couple of books before eBooks had filled the gap.
But I just think, I did an event last night with, I don't know, there were 40 or 50 peopleon a Zoom and they all sort of said their favorites of my books and like half of them,
(26:29):
their favorite book was Nine Rules because it was like they had started with me there.
And I just think...
It is so rare now as a reader to find a new author and start at the very beginning oftheir career because it's hard to find, like discoverability is impossible.
And it just wasn't the case for me.
(26:49):
did change the game, like when a lot of the bookstores started closing and then evenBarnes and Noble started closing certain ones, you know, and it became like this, you
know, smaller thing to find like a bookstore period.
And then like, if you do have a bookstore, if you're in a brick and mortar store, you'renot going to have all 20 of my books.
They're going to be, you know, mostly three, you know, and so it's like whatever book ithappens to be is where you start.
(27:17):
And that's, and also I, I publish a mass market, which makes it even less likely thatyou'll see my books in a store.
So, um, you know, I think I'm incredibly lucky.
Like it is so much luck.
Yeah.
the other story of that manuscript is we sent it to a different editor at HarperCollinswho did not like it.
(27:38):
And instead of just like passing, she in the morning, the morning that she read thatmanuscript, they had had a meeting of all the editors and a different editor at
HarperCollins was like, I'm looking for a brand new author who I can like basically buildinto like a historical writer.
(28:00):
Mm.
She was like, this book isn't for me, but I'm going to bring it to my colleague who saidthis more.
it just, it was like all the little things happen in the right.
You know, the stars were just aligned that day.
I love that the editor did that though, that they didn't just like completely pass.
(28:22):
It's like, it wasn't for me, but maybe it's for you.
Because we all know that writing is subjective anyway.
And so like, I love that she passed it along.
Yeah, mean, I mean, and in the in the ensuing like then I spent 19 books with Avon and Iwas at many meals with that other editor.
And like, for a long time, you know, I didn't say a word because, you know, what do yousay?
(28:48):
But, you know, not like when I was later in my career and felt a little more steady andlike, not going to piss anyone off.
I did say to her, was like, you know, I've never thanked you for like, not just liketossing it in the bin.
Mm-hmm.
was like, well, we're very happy to have you on.
You know, I mean, what's she going to say to me?
(29:08):
She probably was like, wonder if she's ever going to say anything.
What I love about what you said was that 19 books, and then as a reader of your books,I'll segue into the future in a second because I'm excited about that.
talk about how you maintained
(29:33):
your reader following or the reader loyalty for all those many books.
I know what it is because you always talk about it.
But for the people who are listening, especially writers, talk to them how important it isfor because you look like what the fuck is she saying?
(29:57):
I would say like we started with the promise that you made with
Raustin and Callie.
You kept it all the way up through the Bare Knuckle Brawl with series, all the way upthrough Bum Shell, all of those books.
How important is it for you to maintain your brand and keep the promise of the premisethat you give in your book?
(30:22):
Yeah, I mean, I'm a when I, you know, I have a podcast too.
And at the beginning of every podcast, I introduce myself and I say like, I'm SarahMcLean, I read romance novels and I write them right.
And I said, that's an intentional order, right?
Like I am a romance reader first and always like for me, the books begin and end with thereader.
(30:43):
I know that there are a lot I think in in the
many years that I've been doing this and meeting many, many authors.
I think there are two kinds of authors.
I think there are authors who write for themselves and there are authors who write fortheir readers.
I do not want to place value judgment on either of those things.
think great books come from all different kinds, from all of that.
(31:03):
But what I mean by that is often I will say to say we have a series on our podcast wherewe talk to romance trailblazers, like the women who built the house, right?
Largely women who built the house.
And often I'll say, I'll ask, what about, were you ever in a position where you wrote abook and you thought to yourself, what if the readers don't come with me on this one?
(31:27):
And there are often, there are two answers to that question.
One is, absolutely, I have done that and I have, but I'm always very thoughtful about whatthe readers want, how the book serves the reader, how the book scratches the reader itch
and delivers the covenant.
delivers on the covenant we have with the reader, right?
(31:48):
And then there are people who are like, no, I never think about the reader.
Like for me, the book is beginning to end.
Like it is the book that I want it to be.
And then I put out in the world and it's not my problem whether people love it or not.
And I'm just like, I'm that first writer.
And that's because like for me, the books are important.
(32:08):
The books have been important in shaping me as a person, right?
Like they have been my friends.
during difficult times, they have guided me through so many big questions in my life.
Romance has been my partner in life in a lot of ways.
so I think Kenya, what you want me to talk about is that sort of covenant, right?
(32:33):
That is, I will always,
My hope is always to take you on the biggest emotional journey I can take you on, to takeyou to very high peaks and very low valleys and deliver you safely at the end to this
promise of these two people have found each other and will be happy forever.
(32:59):
We are okay.
Everything is okay.
And the world moves forward.
And I think...
readers respond to that obviously, but that's not special to me, right?
Like that's romance.
That's what we promise.
That's the job.
But also I think in my books, like what people call the McLeaniverse, like is a constantlyevolving world, right?
(33:24):
You can enter at any time at any book, you're going to meet
characters who live in all the different series, like the hope is that you will decide youwant to live in this world forever with me.
I do think like over the years I have lost readers, like as the books have become morepolitical, as overtly political, I feel like they've been political from the beginning,
(33:47):
but like more overtly political.
And I think I've gained readers for the same reason.
I think there, I have...
started being very much more overt about like historical accuracy representing the actualworld that existed in the 1840s in London, rather than like what old school romances would
(34:07):
like us to think.
And I think like the readership either comes with you on that or doesn't.
And I think you also have to decide as a writer, like you cannot be all things to allpeople.
And like, you have to cut loose some of that like dead weight.
Mm-hmm.
Um, yeah.
(34:27):
And your heroines are always like, I would say, Calparnia is probably the softest one.
But as she goes on throughout that story, she finds like every book I write basically isthis story.
You guys is like the soft girl who finds her power like that will never not be my catnip.
(34:53):
And
And by the time you get up to where we are reading bombshell, you do this thing in yourwriting where you see that soft moment like they had it at one point.
And by now, when you get to the book, like bombshell in particular in those books, thatsomething happened that enraged them, shifted their dynamic.
(35:21):
And then now we are
are actually...
where we see Capernia, she's on the cusp of that.
In these later books, you guys, you're seeing the women in the midst of it.
And it's quite delicious.
It's quite delicious.
And I feel like as your winner, I've grown with you as we've gotten to this point, right?
(35:43):
So, and you can talk a little bit about why it's important to empower women in your work.
I mean, why is it important to empower women in the world?
I mean, I think you're right.
think the bones of the McLean core story have been there since the beginning, since NineRules.
(36:07):
It's always about claiming space for me.
I have spent a lifetime, I am a larger person.
I've spent a lifetime trying to make myself small to be palatable.
Um, and for me, like every romance heroine that I have ever written, like has to claim,like learns to claim space or has already learned to claim space and is continuing to
(36:34):
claim space.
And the joy of romance novels is that I can then give her a love who is, wishes she wasmore filled more space, right?
Like, I'm not talking about physically, I'm talking about like,
just he wants her to be his whole universe.
(36:54):
Like if he could live inside her, he would.
And I think that that's really, for me, that's like the most romantic thing I can imagineas a partner who just like loves the space you feel.
And so I think that's important for women.
I think, you know, I don't know.
(37:16):
mean, I think...
I think romance has the capacity to do such important work.
I think that it has always felt to me like it is a genre that is asking us as writers todo important work.
(37:40):
And I take that really seriously.
I take the impact.
I I found romance
at a very, very difficult time of my childhood.
I was in sixth grade and my family was falling apart and romance was a steady for me.
I started with those kind of old school romances where the heroines went on a journey,right?
(38:09):
They were alone and they were being...
picked up to be taken to Scotland to be married by like some giant stranger and liketraveling through the woods and they were winning in the end.
Like it was, it was a story of triumph.
(38:29):
And so for me, that's bedrock to the genre.
And I think that's what a lot of us who have been reading the genre for a long time feellike that, that sort of like triumph over
possible odds is bedrock to what we do.
And I know how that story built me as a person.
(38:53):
Like I am who I am because of those books and that story.
And I want very much for us as a genre to take ourselves and that work seriously.
Yes, I definitely agree with you.
And I think that's one of the other things that I think resonates so much with your booksis even though it's an historical setting, those women could be today.
(39:14):
And that's what I love about is that, you know, given everything that's going on, I thinkit's great to read these strong women who are overcoming, who are not being put in a box,
who are allowing themselves to no matter what society says about them.
they're willing to be themselves and to step outside of what is the norm and what isexpected.
(39:37):
And so I think that's one of the things I just absolutely love about your books.
Yeah, I mean, it's, so important.
And I think, I mean, I could name a dozen writers who are doing that with every book rightnow.
And I guess, like, I wish, I wish more new readers had access to like, the discover, butit goes back to discover ability.
(40:02):
How do we put these books in front of, you know, young women and also young, young readersand sort of a like, kind of
people who've never been to the romance world before.
Like, how do we show them what these books have the capacity to do?
And I don't, you know, there's this big discussion now about romance, like, should it beteaching us?
(40:25):
Like, should we think of romance as a teachable lesson, like as a text that we learn from?
And I don't think that that's the job at all.
But I do think we have a responsibility as creators to the world.
No, yeah, I agree.
And so going forward, because we're still waiting on the fourth book in the Hillsbellseries, when are we going to see that?
(41:02):
I mean, it's up to me.
I expect that it will be turned in in the early winter, so like the kind of January,February.
And then it'll come out when HarperCollins puts it out.
No, I'm not done with it.
I'm working on it now.
Okay, so this is me just playing.
(41:23):
No, it was so I hope that it will come out earliest I can imagine it coming out is late2025, but I would expect that it will be out later than spring 2026.
now tell us about these summer storms and the switch of you going into is this a thriller?
What kind of contemporary?
(41:44):
What's going on here, Sarah?
Because I was like, listen, I understand, you know, I watch the tread issues from theoutside as a reader because, you know, all of my favorite authors, for the most part, are
(42:07):
either historical romance or, you know, Black and interracial romance now.
And so I'm just very curious what's going on there.
Yeah
It's a it is a novel.
It's a it's a commercial novel.
It's a bit it's like a hardcover summer read.
(42:28):
It's not a it's not a romance novel, though it is a McLean novel.
So there is a romance inside it.
But I am very I myself Sarah McLean am very careful not to refer to it as a romancebecause I know what I want a romance to be.
And that is not this book has a B plot that is a romance.
The A plot is not a romance.
(42:49):
Mm-hmm.
so it is about a family.
Um, there is, it's a wealthy family.
Um, the father is a tech kind of giant, a tech billionaire.
dies in a freak accident and all of the children, uh, go home to a private Island off thecoast of Rhode Island, which is where I grew up.
(43:11):
and they are there for one week and they discover that he has left them an inheritancegame.
And essentially they each have to complete a task.
Each one of them is given a task and they have to complete the task in order to inherit.
And so they are, they are trapped together on this private island.
(43:34):
terrible rich people.
Um, it's basically like succession plus knives out, but make it sexy.
And the main character, the protagonist is an estranged daughter who has not
has not been home for five years, has not had a relationship with her family for fiveyears.
Her father like exiled her from the island.
(43:55):
She gets home and the night before she goes to the island, she gets on the boat to go tothe island.
She has a one night stand with like a stranger in town and romance readers knowing wherethis is going.
She gets to the island.
I'm sort of excited about this because a lot of non-romance readers will probably readthis book and I'm sort of curious about like,
(44:17):
Is this going to be surprise for non-romance readers?
But I'm very happy to talk about it with romance readers because obviously this is how itgoes.
And she gets to the island and then the stranger turns up and he is her father'slieutenant and the judge and jury of this.
Wow
So that is the romance, but the A-plot is the battle of the family.
(44:42):
Okay, so I cut you off, but I'm sorry.
Will there be more hunting on the island with the Lieutenant Man?
Yes!
There is, it is a full, you will get the full McLean experience.
In fact, I will tell you the margin note from my editor when it gets to like the scene onthe island with the two of them was, so we are doing this.
(45:08):
We are doing this.
We are not, there is no like fade to black.
It is a full experience.
There is, I will say I was like,
This cannot be a classic McLean sex scene that lasts like three chapters.
I have to cut it down.
Like it's gotta be one solid chapter.
So.
(45:29):
Like my husband was...
Netflix, if you're listening, I want this to be turned into a series that I can bingewatch.
You know what, it's given, you gave the, don't know if y'all saw that Netflix thing withNicole Kidman.
That was, my God.
That, I immediately went there with this.
(45:52):
And now you're making me want to watch Succession.
And I deliberately held out because it reminded me of.
you know, narcissistic, malignant, narcissist billionaires and I didn't want to re watchthat.
for Wraithworth, I do kill mine right at the very beginning.
Yeah, so I'm like, every time I think about that, I think about that guy and the guy whoowns Fox News, that guy.
(46:21):
Yes.
succession is like a, it's not even thinly veiled.
It's basically the Murdoch family.
in the fact that he had women actually willingly subjected themselves to him is still mindboggling.
anyway, but I'm very kind of
have was about like before you started writing romance, I know you wrote, you were acolumnist for many different publications.
(46:46):
What was it that you were writing at the time?
Like what kind of stories were you?
So actually that wasn't before I was a writer.
I wrote a romance review column for the Washington Post for many years.
I was their romance reviewer, which was terrific and really fun.
And then, you know, book coverage did what book coverage does.
(47:09):
And that was the end of me over there.
And then, and I wrote a number of, I wrote like a sort of sex and gender column for Bustlefor a little while.
Um, you know, always through the lens of like sex positivity and, and feminine joy, likewomen and joy.
(47:32):
Um, and I think interestingly, a lot of that started kind of right before, um, the firstTrump presidency and then like, and then existed through that sort of four years.
Um, and so I hope that what will happen is we will see more of that coverage.
(47:56):
I hope that will be like something that comes back.
2016, is that when the book band organization that you were one of the founders of, whendid that start?
that only started, that's only like eight months old.
We started that early this year.
What is it?
November.
It's more like 11 months old, but we started that early this year because I mean, bookbands are a big problem and we expected that they would continue to be a big problem.
(48:26):
matter, like we were like, this is going to be a long fight because it's happening.
you know, on the ground at like a school district level.
So in all, in across the United States, mean, every, if you are right now listening andyou are in like the bluest of blue, like Sapphire blue States, I promise you there are
(48:49):
massive book bands afoot, in so in school districts.
Yeah.
yeah.
I mean, I'm in New York city and we have them here.
So we are, um, so we knew this was going to be a problem.
So we started building this like,
we thought, okay, well, what if we brought authors together across the country and we sortof started playing whack-a-mole, right?
(49:10):
Like a school district would announce a ban and like a local author would go in to likespeak on behalf of authors against book bans.
Now, now that we know that Project 2025 was the plan all along, this is, it's becoming amuch more, a much, a much...
more public fight, think.
(49:31):
think it will become one.
I mean, listen, there are going to be so many fights and I urge everyone to preserve theirown energy and their own sanity in whatever is to come.
But book banning is about to become a very big fight.
And it is going to be a big deal for us as romance writers because we are, mean,pornography is expressly discussed in Project 2025.
(50:00):
Romance fully falls on any romance that has sex in it at all falls directly under thedefinition of pornography that's in project 2025.
Any romance that covers that has queer characters at all falls under the 2025 definitionof pornography.
So even if you're writing closed door queer romance, that's pornography according to theheritage foundation.
(50:24):
And then that doesn't even get to
once you get into BIPOC creators, books that touch on race at all, books that touch onsocial justice at all, books that have abortion on page or reference abortion on page,
like these are all considered pornography under the definition in Project 2025.
(50:47):
And it expressly calls for the persecution, conviction and incarceration of
authors, distributors, publishers, booksellers, librarians, and teachers who get these,who put these books anywhere near like people.
(51:08):
Children under the age of 18 specifically, but I think this is going to become broader.
So my, now you've got, I'm sorry.
no no, i'm like, like how do i get involved?
Y'all
So what can you do?
What can we do?
This is the thing, right, that I keep thinking for two weeks I've been thinking like, whatdo we do?
(51:29):
Because I am that kind of person who's like, I am a hammer, where is my nail?
Right?
So here is your nail, everybody.
You can, on a very basic level, what I would recommend is purchasing books in print thatyou love.
There is, you guys are both indie writers.
This is
(51:50):
A lot of companies are going to comply in advance.
I expect Amazon will be one of them.
Like, so if you have eBooks that you love that matter to you, buy them in print so thatyou have them.
Um, I think that if you're an author, please join Authors Against Book Bands, which youcan join at authors against book bands.com.
(52:12):
Um, we are working literally, I'm having daily meetings.
Like we are working literally daily to try and figure out like.
how to prepare for what is to come.
And obviously we are preparing for the worst.
we, I hope it is not going to come to trans authors being arrested at events, but we arepreparing for it.
(52:33):
So join us because we need a army.
Yeah.
well, you know, I love mobilizing.
I love mobilizing.
So we will definitely add that to, jump on that immediately.
So expect many TikToks.
(52:53):
I will, I will reach out to my people.
not authors and like don't know what to do.
Bear witness to this because it is insidious and these, what is happening is these bandsare happening, they are illegal, they are in direct violation of the first amendment and
(53:13):
they are happening quietly at school board meetings while we all
don't know that they are happening.
You can go to your taxes, pay your local school board dollars.
Your school board meetings are public.
And even if you don't have children, you can go to them and sit at them and like bearwitness to the absolute excruciating boredom of a school board meeting because like deep
(53:41):
in the, the,
agenda of that meeting, I promise you some of these places are having real conversationsabout banning books.
And there are, yeah, and 71 % of Americans don't believe that book bans should happen.
So there are more of us than there are of them, but they're doing it quietly.
(54:02):
And your work, honestly, is to bear witness.
Like make sure you talk about book bans with your friends, your neighbors, your community,go to school board meetings if you can.
Women need to be told seven times to run for office.
Men only need to be told twice.
Surprise, surprise.
This is me telling you, run for office.
Like school boards need smart, committed, passionate, educated people who care about theFirst Amendment and care about kids seeing themselves.
(54:33):
And that is, now I will climb down from my soapbox.
No, you are doing important work.
This is like, you know, you have set a fire under me.
So I know hearing this, by the time this airs, that it's really gonna set a fire underother people, readers.
(54:56):
And like already, I'm just thinking of the list of people who I know who influencers whoneed to hear this, who are.
who need to join this organization.
So, and I'm definitely putting it in my newsletter and I never do my newsletter on time.
So, but I'm gonna do it this week.
Thank you so much for sharing that.
(55:16):
Yeah, definitely.
mean, I think we were both like listening just like intently because I mean, it is it'simportant and it's gonna not only affect the authors, but like you said, the readers,
you're not gonna be able to find your book, you know, our books or, you know, justdifferent things.
And so I definitely think it's on the it's on all of us to make sure that that doesn'thappen.
(55:39):
Yeah, I mean, it's vigilance, right?
And that's the scariest thing because it feels like we have to be vigilant about so much,right?
And but that's their goal to have us doing all of these things.
Yeah.
again, just many, school board positions run unopposed.
(56:03):
And what's happening is like these groups, Moms for Liberty, is just like sending in theirpeople, delivering them a list of books.
And like, I'm going to get back on my soapbox again, sorry.
But like one of the books that is most banned in the country,
is a picture book called, and Tango Makes Three, which is about penguins at the CentralPark Zoo.
(56:28):
And this is a true story, but like a few years ago, I don't know, five or 10 years ago,two male penguins at the Central Park Zoo found a rock and they started sitting on it,
like thinking that it was an egg, right?
And they would trade off, like sitting on this egg and like planet, or sitting on thisrock and the zookeepers gave them an egg, a penguin egg, and they sat on this rock and the
(56:50):
penguin,
egg hatched and the city named the penguin the baby penguin tango.
And like, this was like, I mean, it is the most charming story.
And they made a picture book about it because it's true.
This happened, right?
This book is banned in almost every state in at least one school district in almost everystate because of homosexual content.
(57:17):
my god.
It's a picture book about penguins.
We are a nonsense country.
So yeah.
what, we are not serious people.
This is what I, I understand this.
in the world.
that's not one of them.
No, that's lovely.
That is a delightful story.
(57:39):
It's so, it's so beautiful.
So this is what we're fighting against.
It's crazy.
there are, and like, we just, I promise you there are people out there, I'm looking at twopeople who would make terrific school board members.
Like,
Well now I'm all fired up, I'm just like, let me go out here and see if there are anyseeds up.
(58:03):
Yeah.
like it's also listen, tell me when you run for school board.
This is me saying this to all of your listeners, too.
Like if you are running for school board, let me know.
I can mobilize a phone banking operation for you.
We will get you elected.
I'm not used to be a substitute here, so I know, like, what we're dealing with here.
Yeah.
mean, like that would be that that's all I want.
(58:26):
I just want sane people to sit on school boards for all the reasons Kenya talks about to.
mean, like school boards are so important.
Yeah.
No, they really are.
okay, so let's segue into the last question because we're a little over.
But and I know you're very busy, Momin.
(58:49):
I could talk to you all day.
I could move into, Sarah, if you let me.
I don't clean, though.
What have you read and loved this year?
What have I read and loved it this year?
I'm looking at my list.
(59:10):
Okay.
I am, what have I read and loved this year?
I really, really, there are three historicals that I am recommending to basicallyeverybody who will listen to me right now.
So I will start with those since we talk so much about historicals.
Lorraine Heath's book is not out until New Year's Eve, but Kenya, you're, mean,
(59:32):
Moni, I don't know what kind of books you love, but I know Kenya will love this book.
The heroine is a hot air balloonist and she crash lands her hot air balloon on a desertedisland inhabited by a Duke who hates himself.
Like, just don't even look at me.
I hate myself.
It's perfect.
Like, it's perfect.
(59:54):
Right after the election.
And I was like, there is no dream.
more like this is now my like, there's nothing I want to do more than like currently be acrashed hot air balloonist on a deserted island with a Duke who hates himself.
And that's a tempest of desire.
(01:00:15):
That's what's the name, I just looked it up.
And then Julianne Long has a book out now called The Beast Takes a Bride that has one ofthe best beginnings to a romance novel I've ever read.
She begins and she is in she is in prison in Newgate Prison with a bunch of other women.
(01:00:38):
And like it is a terrific beginning.
my god, yeah that sounds amazing.
That's a second chance love story.
Sorry.
She's great.
Well, you should read this new one.
It's terrific.
my God, see?
Okay, is Sarah coming with him?
Okay.
(01:01:00):
And then the third one is Elizabeth Hoyt has a new book coming out, which Elizabeth Hoytfans have been waiting, I think for two or three years for a new book from her.
And this one is a real banger.
Like again, a hero who hates himself.
This is all I want out of life right now.
It's just like a bunch of heroes who hate themselves.
Like don't even look at me.
Don't touch me.
I'm not worthy.
That's exactly the vibe I'm looking for.
(01:01:22):
But also if you love like vigilante women, this is a book for you.
The Heroine is like a member of like a vigilante like long, centuries old, like women whodo crime and protect other women kind of group.
So that was really for me too.
And that one's called No Ordinary Duchess.
(01:01:44):
Okay, so is that already out or is it coming out?
That is out next week, I think.
Okay, because you know she really did that whole little thing with the with the Kate like.
yeah, what was that series?
Why?
my God, you just pushed the name of that series out of my head.
(01:02:06):
That's her head.
Oh.
just right out of my head.
Yes, but yes.
to find the books now, but I remember that first book where he was very blind and like,there's this scene.
So crazy.
And she's sitting by the fireplace, counting, does the little Ralston thing.
(01:02:30):
He's, oh my God.
Wicked Intentions, Notorious Pleasures.
What's the name?
The Maiden Lane series, y'all.
It's basically Victoria.
It's it's like historical Batman is the series.
It's bananas.
It's so fun.
It was so good.
Which one of your series is your favorite?
(01:02:56):
always say to people who've never read me that they should read The Bare Knuckle Bastards.
I think that's a series that really links what I was doing to what I am doing.
If you like part of it, you can go back, and if you like a different part of it, you cango forward.
Wait, but I have other books.
You asked me for recommendations, so I have other books I wanna recommend.
(01:03:18):
Okay, Nikki Payne's Sex, Lies, and Sensibility is one of my favorite books of the year.
It's a renovation romance set in Maine.
The Maine character, that she and her father die, she her sister go to the funeral andthey discover they are the other family.
And like their father has left them a dilapidated like house in Maine.
(01:03:42):
And so these two like deeply city girls have to move to Maine to like, cause she's alsohad like an internet.
She's basically had like a sex tape.
problem on the internet.
And they end up in Maine and there is this great hero who's like squatting on their landand on the land in Maine and like he's faking being a park ranger.
(01:04:06):
And it's again, like very crazy and fun.
And also, and I really loved that.
And then I read this other book this year that I really, loved and it's like, it's so
Weird.
It's a very weird book, but it's called Rules for Ghosting by Shelley J.
(01:04:27):
Shor.
And the premise is the hero is like his parents, his family owns like a funeral home andhe can see ghosts.
And so he, um, like he goes home, there's like a
there was a holiday dinner, like a Passover Seder, and at the Passover Seder, his momannounces that she is leaving their father for the rabbi, who is also leaving her husband.
(01:05:00):
And they announce this at Passover dinner, like all the husbands are at the table, all thekids are at the table, and they make this announcement.
And there's a stranger who the family has collected into the family to this chaos dinner.
and the hero and the stranger sort of like fall in love, but like the hero has to go homeand like work.
(01:05:22):
The hero is a doula and he gets sort of sucked into this world of like being part, workingin the family funeral home.
And like, it's really fascinating.
It's a book, again, it sort of does this.
it does this really interesting thing where it like teaches us what romance can be, likehow big of a story romance can tell.
(01:05:45):
Because like, if you think about it, like being a doula, pregnancy doula, right, a birthdoula, like, it feels like funeral homework would be like the absolute opposite of that.
You can think of anything even like further afield, but like, there is something very likebeautiful about this book and this
(01:06:07):
the other hero who is a stranger but actually ends up working in the funeral home too,fall for each other in this like really lovely context.
And then there's a ghost and there's like this crazy family dynamic and like there's somuch happening.
It's so layered.
And it's really a book that surprised me.
(01:06:28):
didn't know what to expect.
And I got a really beautiful love story wrapped up in this like big community.
And also I'm really fascinated right now with how romance is handling death.
so like, there it is.
So those are two others that I've really loved.
I love that.
All of those sound good.
(01:06:49):
You always give the book great book rate, you guys.
And that's why I have been listening to Faded Maze.
When did y'all start?
Did y'all start in 2018?
think so, yeah.
We're in the seventh year now, so yeah.
2018.
And I was also stalking you back then, that's, that's, that's another thing.
(01:07:12):
That's not why I started.
That might've been why I started.
That wasn't why I continued.
But, but Sarah always has, like I call Jen grumpy cat and Sarah is more like the lightereffervescent.
Like y'all get quickly Sarah.
You're getting Prickly Sarah today.
well, Sarah is, and Jen's our grumpy cat.
(01:07:34):
That's what I love, Jen.
She's the grumpy cat, and Sarah is like, light and effervescent, like me.
So, but Sarah, thank you so much for joining us.
I hope you had a good time.
you please tell everyone where they can follow you like online and like
I am like everyone I have left Twitter, so you can't find me there.
(01:07:58):
I am on Instagram and Blue Sky and threads all as at Sarah McLean, whole name.
And then if you like romance novel podcasts, and it sounds like you do, you can listen toFaded Mates, which is my podcast every Wednesday.
There is a new episode.
(01:08:18):
So we just.
This week, tomorrow, I mean, I don't know when this episode goes out, but as we wererecording, tomorrow is our best of the year episode.
So you can hear me talk more about the books I recommended.
Well, thank you again for joining us.
greatly appreciate it.
It's been a pleasure.
(01:08:39):
and thanks for listening everyone.
I'm so happy.
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