August 25, 2025 • 63 mins
In the 4th episode of season 1, we talk to USA Today and Wall Street Journal Bestselling author Sierra Simone. The conversation around how she comes up with the sexy, erotic romances her readers crave is fun, naughty and not to be missed.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
Hello and welcome to the Author Spotlight with Kenyagori Bell and Moni Boyce.
Our guest today is USA Today bestselling author, Ciara Simone.
Ciara, if you would like to introduce yourself a little bit more.
Yeah, well, thank you guys so much for having me.
I'm Ciara Simone.
I write provocative erotic romance.
(00:26):
I write in contemporary queer historical paranormal spaces.
And yeah, I'm just really excited to be here today.
We're so happy to have you.
Thank you for being our first guest.
So Sierra, you know I'm a big fan of yours.
You were one of the first people who was in the original author spotlight live on IG.
(00:50):
So welcome back.
And Moni and I went back and forth a lot about which series we wanted to talk aboutbecause we love your work so much.
But...
We settled on the American Camelot series and talking about Greer, Embree, and Maxim.
(01:12):
And so just, so welcome and thank you for, I'm sorry, my Siri.
Thank you so much for coming.
What inspired that series?
Well, I feel like this is an interesting question to answer because for most of usauthors, I would say that what happens is we have sort of ideas or premises or characters
(01:42):
that are kind of like simmering in the back of our mind.
And then something happens on a more like recent time scale that kind of unlocks it.
You know, like there might be like, oh, I think I'd like to write a single dad romance orsomething.
And then one day.
you're driving to work and you see someone, a man, rescuing a baby kitten, you know, offthe side of the road.
(02:03):
And then all of a sudden, the book really takes shape.
It's almost like these larger ideas sometimes need like just like a detail or some sort oflike specific thing to really unlock them.
But for New Camelot, it was really a story that I'd been wanting to tell for, since I was16.
(02:24):
And so it was almost like I was just waiting for my storytelling to be ready for it.
I was obsessed with King Arthur in high school.
I knew very early on that I was destined, I wanted to write my own version of a KingArthur story, but I was going to fix it.
(02:44):
But I didn't really understand how I was going to fix it yet.
Like it really didn't kind of come, come to me.
And I think
uh, known enough about like, uh, my own queerness or queer characters or polyamory to findthe way to fix it.
And of course the way to fix that story is just for everyone to be in love.
(03:06):
Uh, so spoiler alert, if you guys have not read New Camelot, anyone who's listening, um,it's not a love triangle.
It's a story about three people who are in love, um, and still manage to break eachother's hearts over and over again, as they kind of stumble towards us happily ever after.
And so it was my sort of obsession with King Arthur that led to like the genesis of thestory.
(03:29):
But really I think what happened was I needed to change.
You know, I needed like another 10 or 15 years to kind of change who I was and reallyunderstand who I was as a storyteller to tell the story the way that it's told now.
I actually kind of love that.
(03:50):
I always kind of say in my former life, I was a filmmaker.
And so there was always, you know, you always have those films or those stories whereyou're like, when we have the budget, we want to make this.
And so I kind of love like as a writer, you knew that you wanted to tell this great storyand that you weren't ready to tell it yet.
You weren't matured enough as a writer to tell a story.
And so you waited.
(04:11):
I think for some people that can be hard to say like, I'm gonna wait.
You know, because some people just want to rush right out and like I'm gonna do this nowand so I love that even then you were just like I'm gonna sit on this until I'm like know
that I can tell the story that I want to tell
Yeah, and I should like caveat this with saying I think that there are some authors whoare who go too far in the other direction where they're like I'm not I'm not good enough
(04:37):
to write the story yet and then what happens is it kind of keeps getting pushed you knowover the horizon and you know you're only ever gonna be you're only ever gonna have the
tools you have now in some degree and so I don't I don't want to make it sound like I'mlike encouraging that like yeah you should wait to start on your master don't do it.
Um, but I do think that it is actually, um, it becomes easier to tell with authorialexperience.
(05:04):
The more you write, the more you publish, the more you read other people's writing and,you know, just engage with this industry, the better you get at diagnosing if sort of the
bread is done baking, you know, like you get better at telling.
And it's just how like good cooks are able to, you know, taste the soup and be like thesoup's ready or it needs a little bit more.
(05:25):
You get better at diagnosing, I think, if you're ready or if the story's ready.
And I do think that exciting stories always come with a little bit of discomfort, a littlebit of like fear that you're not gonna do it justice and you do have to take that leap of
faith.
But I do think that sometimes it helps to know like, yes, this is ready.
Like if I take this leap of faith, it's gonna meet me where I'm at versus I'm just soexcited to do this but I haven't done any research, I haven't used.
(05:55):
Yes.
that I'm just jumping in right now.
And then you might still get there in the end, but it might be harder.
And I don't like harder.
I like easier.
And I think what's interesting also, you said this story, the story had been in you sinceyou were 15.
And you wrote it when you were what, 30 or whatever, 25.
(06:19):
So, but you haven't had that life experience, of course, but what you have written at 15.
You know what I'm saying?
So that makes a lot of sense.
But let's talk about a little bit about your fearlessness and writing.
this story as well as the Bell Brothers because you wrote Priest which is another like fanfavorite 100 percent naughty book that I was scared to touch because I was like actually I
(06:51):
read Sinner first and I was like because of my upbringing as a born-again ChristianSouthern National Baptist, not Southern.
I was like, I'm not touching that with football, but and you and your upbringing, how wereyou able to push and you do this so well, first of all, I love it.
(07:16):
But how do you push past those boundaries that have been set by society and your faith andyour in culture and everything and just leave nothing?
on leave nothing on the table and put it all in your books.
What what makes you be able to be so brave?
(07:37):
I, you know, I don't know how brave I am because I do feel constantly riddled with fear.
But I do say that, you know, I think when you're writing, we always sort of want tosupersede that fear, we want to grow past the point where the fear feels like it's taking
up space in our heads.
But I've kind of taken a different approach to it where
(08:00):
you know, there's this story of the Buddha and he had a demon chasing him named Mara andMara was always trying to like catch the Buddha, you know, trick him and all this stuff.
And so one day Mara decides he's gonna trick the Buddha by disguising himself and sittingdown to tea with the Buddha.
And then he's gonna be like, surprise, you know, it was me all along.
(08:24):
But of course the Buddha immediately recognizes him.
And the Buddha just takes tea with this demon and says, well, I see you.
And I'm glad that we're sharing tea right now.
And so I heard that story years ago, and I'm sure that it has deeper metaphysicalmeanings, but to me, I took it as an invitation to sit down and have tea with my fear and
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to say, okay, well, like, I think it's gonna be harder to chase you away, but I see you, Isee what you are.
And actually, instead of trying to fight you,
let's just share tea together and you can tell me about your day and I'll tell you aboutmine.
And so I have instead tried to make friends with my fear and listen to what my fear istrying to tell me.
(09:07):
And if my fear is trying to tell me that what I'm afraid of is something that I was taughtor something that other people say, then I know that my fear is trying to protect me, is
trying to keep me safe, right?
Like this is what the human...
impulse of fear is doing is trying to keep you safe from the from the bear or whatever.
(09:30):
And so I can say, okay, I know right now you're trying to keep me safe, but actually, Ithink that someone needs to go outside.
And even if there is a bear.
And then other times, if my fear is telling me I'm worried that this is going this is ascenario that you're writing where your character is going to have less dignity, I am
worried that this story is going to dehumanize your characters.
(09:53):
then that's a situation where I say, okay, fear, like I think that you're, this isimportant for me to look at.
Thank you for pointing this out to me so that I can look at it and make sure that I'm notinadvertently doing this and that there's, I might need to change the story or perhaps I
just need to deepen the story and make the characters in the situation deeper so that weunderstand how it's not dehumanizing.
(10:19):
And so I really am grateful to fear for that.
But I also think that I naturally tend to write kind of in words.
I'm a very sort of interior.
My writing process is very interior, which I don't think that there's a good or bad way tobe because I know a lot of storytellers who are very external in their storytelling.
(10:39):
Like I want to say this, or I'm just so excited for readers to have this kind of story.
But for me, it's a very internal process.
And that helps, I think, because my priority when I'm writing.
is service to the story, is service to the characters and making them as complex anddisruptive as I possibly can.
(11:00):
And so that helps me too, when I'm trying to create in my laboratory to help me shut outthe outside voices.
There's no helping that once you publish, right?
Like that's sort of the game is that you're saying, okay, I'm flinging open the doors, theoutside voices can come in now.
But I think writers as much as possible.
(11:21):
we have to sort of be able to segue between our sort of outward facing selves, you know,the version of ourselves that markets, that promotes, that does take in, you know,
critical reviews and kind of assess, you know, if there's something there that means weneed to change.
And then moving back into the, I call it the laboratory.
There's probably a romantic word, you know, the sanctum.
(11:46):
Yeah, like research and development.
I just imagine myself with like goggles, you know, like
smoke coming out of beakers and stuff like that.
And being able to segue from that sort of external space back into our interior spacewhere we have to allow ourselves to make mistakes.
We have to allow ourselves to run experiments that might not net anything productive.
(12:08):
We have to allow ourselves to be playful.
And the point of play is that it is pointless.
Play does not have a directed end.
And so we have to allow ourselves to get back into that mindset.
And that is cultivated, I think.
I think some people are naturally gifted at it, but I do think that a lot of us have tocultivate the ability to move back into an internal space where we're not gonna let
(12:31):
outside voices change the way our creativity works.
Yeah, I
(13:05):
um is that you know like you said you're kind of an interior writer and um I think that'simportant for especially writers coming up to not get so stuck on like Oh, it has to be
vampires right now because that's like, you know What the hot new thing is because guesswhat that might not be what you're good at writing um, and so I think that you kind of
(13:29):
have to Follow your heart a little bit so to speak because I mean, I think that's moreit's
Your writing is going to come through more authentically if it's something that you're, Iguess, for lack of a better word, passionate about or, you know, something that really
speaks to you.
Yeah, I mean, I think in some ways we're kind of limited by the way our dopamine operates.
(13:52):
And so I have, you know, I think we all know awesome, incredible writers who writeawesome, incredible books who are the kind of writers where the act of writing and the act
of publishing, the act of triangulating the market, they just get so much dopamine fromthat.
And so writing eight books a year, where it's, you know,
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know, eight siblings, and, you know, every cover is the same, and you can market them asinterconnected standalones.
Like, they're able to make all these incredible publishing decisions, because theirdopamine is set up, that it feels great, and they have a great time doing it.
And I always tell people, like, if you sense that that's you, do it that way, because thatis the easiest way in romance.
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but that's true!
is to do it, but my dopamine is not set up that way.
I have to write what I'm interested in, and what I'm interested in is not always going tobe vampires when vampires are hot, or hockey when hockey is hot, or I don't know when the
next thing is going to be golfing.
Like, I can't make myself go there unless I'm genuinely interested in it.
(15:05):
And for a long time, I found that to be an impediment, because if you take workshops,
in this industry, if you take classes, if you go to conferences, the people who are themost likely to be giving those workshops and classes are people who are, they love to
achieve, they're achievers, you know, and so they love that kind of executing, they lovestrategy.
(15:26):
And so for a long time, I felt it was really deficient of me to be such an organic writer.
But what I can say is that there was no changing it.
I've tried for years.
I like this, you know, this is the brain I have.
and working with it instead of trying to work against it has made my life so much easier.
And I also think that organic stories tend to be a little bit more timeless.
(15:51):
So even if you don't find yourself having a big spike into that top 100 on release day, Ido think that those books have a longer tail.
They last a long time and people can recommend them seven years later and it doesn't feellike, you know, you're being handed stale popcorn.
And so there's something about those organic stories that do, I think, even from abusiness perspective, carry their weight.
(16:17):
Yes.
because I am like this.
I will.
But first, let me say this.
If anybody can make golf interesting and sexy, it would be you.
Because listen, I want to see that book, baby, if whoever can do it.
If you can make it not watching like he goes wide on the third.
(16:42):
Anybody who can do that, it would be you.
It would be you.
It's.
announcer impression, I gotta say.
Thank you, thank you.
I was not in theater for all of those years for nothing.
Okay.
If you didn't know, I'm very theatrical.
Okay, I'm very dramatic.
Anyway, so, and I kind of forgot what I was going to say because I went off on a tangentas one does.
(17:10):
Bring it back.
Let me.
Okay.
What I love, what I was going to say, of course, bringing it back to me is like on trendsand things like that, I will be like on tropes.
Friends and lovers, but not.
Small town, but make it not like any small town you're currently reading.
(17:39):
There's nothing sweet and kind and hallmark about my small town.
But what I love about you, and please explain to the people why you love legends so much,because you did an authoritarian, saying it correctly, authoritarian.
Anyway, I'm from Alabama, y'all, excuse me.
(18:01):
Authorian, whatever, legend.
Then you have the Leonese legend.
Why do you love, and say the words correctly, because I know I messed them up, legend somuch.
I don't even bother to say Arthurian most of the time.
I'll just be like, King Arthur.
It's a mouthful.
Yeah, no, no.
(18:24):
And...
let the people believe you earned your masters in English, Kenya.
Anyway, I forgot all of that stuff.
The resident medievalist at the university near my house wants to get lunch in a fewmonths because she's, you know, she enjoyed New Camelot and stuff.
And I was like, I am so dreading this lunch where she realizes how dumb I am.
(18:52):
She's gonna be like speaking to me in like middle English and like, you know, making allthese.
No, it's not gonna be good.
Well, here's a couple of things that I find compelling about legend and myths, is thatthese stories are not only have they shaped our culture today, so they're like resonant
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because we have continued to iterate on these stories throughout the years, but there'ssomething just sort of inherently powerful about most of them.
And for most of them, it's because they're tragic, right?
There's a very human tragedy.
What I like about legends and myths is that they highlight both how our own flaws can leadto tragedy and also how some things are just arbitrary.
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You know, like some things just happen and they're just bad and there's no rhyme or reasonfor it.
I mean, that's like a lot of Greek myths, right?
It's like you're minding your own business and you're just on the wrong side of a godtoday and now you're a spider.
you know, and like, there's, there's nothing you can do about it.
Or, you know, you make an innocent remark about how you might be prettier than Aphrodite,and you're just screwed.
(20:06):
And so like, everything kind of happens in this sort of arbitrary landscape.
But that's life, right?
Like, life is arbitrary.
And so there's something really powerful about that kind of storytelling.
But I also as a, as a writer, I really enjoy things like prompts, right?
Because
we've all faced that situation where you sit down to like a blank manuscript and you'relike, okay, I can write anything.
(20:32):
And then it's like, oh God, I could write anything.
Like how am I even gonna narrow it down?
And so a prompt is great because it kind of gives you that starting point, it narrows yourfocus and says, no, write about this.
And I find that legends and myths are like prompts in that way.
And what's great about them is that most of them, like really until you get to the 1400s,1500s, don't have very much interiority on the characters at all.
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Like if you read a Greek myth, like it's very rare that they're gonna give you like a lookat to what the character is feeling.
Like you don't know what these characters are feeling.
And you might get one or two sentences, a story that...
Demeter is sad or Hercules is sad or something like that.
But for the most part, you don't know what they're feeling.
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And so as a writer, that's like a great prompt, right?
Like, what are they feeling?
Like, why would they do that?
Like, why would you cheat on your husband who's like the best king ever with a knight?
You know, like, why would you do that?
What would make you pursue that choice?
And so it's like a prompt for me to like figure out like, okay, how...
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What are the situations that would lead to this?
What are the feelings that would build on each other for a character to make thisobviously bad choice?
And so it's like useful for me in that way too.
Okay, so my thing with New Camelot, I said American Camelot because I'm always thinkingabout American Queen, but when you read the first book and then you, I came away feeling
(22:17):
that Maxson was a psychopath or some kind of, but the kind of, but he loved them both somuch, right?
So, and then...
Then we see the development more and more in each person's story about how much they lovethe other two people, right?
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So in the process of writing this story and developing these characters, what was the mostchallenging thing for you to get all of them woven together?
Because of all of the three, I have to say, because of my own mental issues.
I really love Maxson and I think I've been rewriting him a little bit.
(23:04):
Hahaha
I get stuck on a man for a while and for a while, he had a lot of free time in my brain.
So how did you get and craft these?
Because with all of your heroes in your stories, I love the women, but I'm really into themen.
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What is it that made you create such a dynamic character and then make him...
be so also, you know, kind of scary, kind of, you know, this, this whole person, thiswhole persona of a king author or whatever.
You know, I think that really for me, the answer for all characters, but especially inTanu Camelot, is to just go down to like the bone of the characters.
(24:00):
And I wish that I had like a streamlined process that I could just like be like, here'sthe flow chart of how I create characters where I generally find it's very messy and
recursive.
And so, but one of the things that I really,
learned about myself is that I have to start writing the character in order to learn aboutthe character and I have to just accept that the more I learn the possibility grows and
(24:30):
I'm going to have to go back and tweak some things in the beginning and this is upsettingfor anyone who wants to write a book like a 3d printer you know where it's like it comes
out perfectly as you go um but for me I'm not I just unfortunately
I'm not wired in the way where I can create the full depth of a character before I startwriting them.
(24:55):
I know some authors who are fantastic at it where they can create entire characterprofiles and, you know, really get down to sort of the bones of them before they even
start writing the story.
And for me, it's kind of the I kind of have to do it and I say recursive, but
I write about 10,000 words and then I start making some character notes.
(25:18):
And then I write another 10,000 words and then I start writing some character notes.
And then around the 40 or 50,000 word mark, I'm like, aha, I've figured it out.
I know exactly what it is about them.
And so as I go back and I do like a pass through what I've already written, it's aboutpulling out those threads.
And what I will say is that a lot of times my brain unconsciously knew.
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what was, you know, what was there, and I just had to see it.
And so a lot of times those threads, those sort of breadcrumbs are already there, youknow, and they just need like a little bit of a spotlight turned on them.
So the reader can be like, Oh, yeah, like they're kissing under the mistletoe.
See?
And, but when you're working on creating complex characters who can sustain a three bookstory, right, and that's
(26:08):
That's part of it, is that I don't go through this process for a 10,000 word novella,where I feel like, you know, I need to really be down into the bone marrow of the
character.
laughing because I cannot imagine, and I know you struggle with it, you writing short,because I can't do it.
(26:28):
Yeah!
It's hard, it's rough.
And that's why I have to consciously limit myself on setting in character for shortstories because I'll write as much as there is to write.
So I just have to make sure like, nope, you're just writing about these two very simplepeople snowed in a cabin or whatever.
(26:50):
And so I don't think that this is a process that you have to go through.
And this is another thing, this is like knowing when the soup is done, knowing when thebread is done, that I think as you have more time writing and you have more time reading
and you're just in this business, you get a lot better at picking up a story idea andholding it in your hands and saying, this is a three book series, this is a 40,000 word,
(27:15):
you know, thing, this is a 10,000 word novella.
You get, you get pretty adept at that, I think.
But yeah, for a character who's going to sustain three books, like...
I need to be sequencing his genome.
And so, because, yeah, and part of the issue is that, I think romance is a lot like horrorin this way, which they're usually two very different genres.
(27:39):
But one of the ways that they are similar is that your horror loses impact, the morecertainty the story builds.
So as, yeah, as...
Like once the monster is revealed, the monster is immediately less scary.
And yeah, and this is why a lot of alien movies aren't scary to me because you see thealiens, you know right away it's aliens, right?
(28:04):
And I think there are some clever movies like Signs that keep threading that uncertaintythroughout the whole movie.
And that's why they're so successful because the longer there is uncertainty, the longerthat fear can last.
Well, it's
so right about that because I feel like I have a tendency to write a story and tell youexactly how uncertain and why, like, for instance, the first book I ever wrote, we
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automatically know from the jump that she killed his wife in a tragic car accident.
And then I have the meat and they're about to fall in love and everybody's like, how thehell is this going to last because he doesn't know yet.
But eventually he's going to find out how can that work.
Because you're using, instead of audience uncertainty, it's character uncertainty.
(28:51):
And that's what you're using to hold up the attention.
And so I just think that it's the same in romance with theory of mind as well, whereusually it's our heroes that have a lot of mystery sort of veiled over their motivations.
We don't know how much he loves the protagonist.
(29:11):
We don't know if he loves the protagonist.
We don't know what he's thinking.
And this is why you have to be so careful in dual POV to make sure that you're not justimmediately giving away your tension with that mystery.
And so I think that like, when you're talking about a character who's, he's the last bookof a trilogy, he's kind of, he's sort of the center of their love story in a way.
(29:38):
Like even though there's three people, like he is kind of the, he is sort of the, I don'tknow, the daddy of the story.
And so making sure, I mean, in every way, and just making sure that his charactercomplexity or his nuance, I guess, like the layers of Maxon kind of kept going down so
(30:03):
that you still felt like there was some mystery, something shrouded, and that...
actually one of the things I loved is that while I felt like you were getting kind of likepeeling back the onion on the other two, not to say quickly, but you got more of their
story like right away.
I felt like he was always kind of shrouded in mystery still until like the, you know,almost like I'd say midway through like the last book.
(30:26):
Yeah, yeah.
And I mean, it's like how in your book, you know, you're sort of substituting characteruncertainty for audience uncertainty, you know, playing with things with what could be
sort of the unknown, right?
So the more you learn about his past, like the more you understand, okay, like, well, heaccidentally had a baby with his sister, could happen to anyone.
(30:52):
Sorry for anyone who is unfamiliar with the King Arthur legend.
But the why and the how that it happened is still something that you don't get untilyou're finally in his POV and so I think that is That's one of the things that I'm always
trying to calibrate is how can I keep as much Sort of mystery and allure to pull you inuntil that very last Moment and that way it feels satisfying and not like all of a sudden
(31:23):
the tension just dropped
And I don't know if anyone's ever read a book where it's like, I don't need to read thelast 30% of this.
Like, you know, they're together.
They're fine.
I like, I don't care about anything else.
Oh, they're being chased by, you know, like the coffee or something.
I don't care.
You know?
So like I am always trying to search for a way to calibrate a story so that by the timeeverything is known, your sense of satisfaction is deep enough that you're like, sure, I
(31:50):
can read another 10,000 words of them just kissing because I'm happy.
Hahaha
They deserve those last 10,000 words of smoochy after all the hell you put them through.
It's not.
But.
10 chapters of Hell, they get 2000 words of kissing.
That's my favorite.
(32:11):
No.
I just don't like writing happy characters.
And so it genuinely takes me three books of torturing a character to be like, OK, fine.
I guess you do have to have an epilogue.
But if it's a standalone, I want that epilogue to be as short as possible.
Because I'm like, now that you're happy I'm done.
(32:31):
Your work here is done.
see yourself writing just one book?
Just one stand alone, like, okay.
Like I know like with Sinner and that was a complete story.
That was not a trilogy or those books are different.
But I mean, just like something like where you got three people in this one book or Idon't even know how that would be possible with you.
(32:55):
I can't see it happening.
I think three people in one book will be tricky.
I know amazing, you know, Katie Robert has done it, Sarah Kate has done it, and they'reincredible.
They're incredible books.
I think for me, because I like to zoom in the camera lens onto like a piece of lint ontotheir sweater and then be like, look at this piece of lint, you know, and when the lint
(33:16):
was a little lint child, its lint dog got hit by a car.
And then I zoom out, you know, and I find another piece of lint.
So I just write so zoomed in that I take up so much word space that I think threecharacters in a standalone would be tricky.
I've done it technically with misadventures of a curvy girl, but I don't know if I coulddo it again.
I think one thing that I love about your book and I was having this conversation withanother author, it was like, it's so, I am not your typical MMF girl or three, I'm just
(33:49):
like one man, one woman, vanilla, for me, vanilla.
I don't know Kenya, like, you're really pushing what vanilla is.
but you know, it's vanilla in the sense that it's one man, one woman type of book.
But my thing is very few writers can write for me so well where if you pluck one of themout, like if you pluck Embry out, the book doesn't work.
(34:23):
You see what I'm saying?
Like in your books,
You're writing, so that's for me, that for me, like you could probably add like a few morepeople and do, you know, why choose?
And every character would have, do you see yourself going into the why choose?
More, like you do, yeah, they used to call it reverse here but now they say why choose?
(34:49):
Cause that's more appropriate.
But do you see yourself adding two or three more people?
Later in books.
it's an interesting question.
So with Thornchapel, I had six characters and at various points in the series, they allhave sex.
But what I found myself doing in Thornchapel was clumping people inside of that grouptogether.
(35:13):
So you had an FF couple and you had an MMF couple and then you have this priest who sortof, he's a floater, I guess.
And...
I found myself kind of clumping inside that larger group.
And I think that there might be a natural impulse there of my, you know, just a limitationmaybe of my own lens, but it was easier for me to sort of zoom in the way that I like to
(35:39):
zoom in with just two or three people.
Where I think, you know, why choose, you do have to sort of keep that like wider cameraangle lens in order to kind of get everyone on the screen.
And so I don't know, it's something that I've asked, I've thought about before, like, oh,is there like a Y2 story like burbling inside me?
And I just need to, you know, let it out.
(36:01):
But I haven't gotten there yet.
Like I think probably what'll happen is tomorrow, I'll wake up and see like a tube oftoothpaste and then I'll be like, here, the story is here.
But it's not quite here yet.
say though that you did it really well in making us very like invested in the charactersfor it to be like you know more than your typical like two-person romance.
(36:22):
I love that.
I mean I've before I started writing under my own name I used to be a ghost writer and soI only ever did one like um why choose in that man because I was like this is difficult to
do well.
Like I found it it's and it wasn't even just like the sex scenes and like whose limbs arewhere and what's going
(36:43):
to make sure there was like an emotional connection for the reader and not just like,don't get me wrong, obviously they want the gratuitous sex too, but it's like, you know,
you want there to be connection between the characters that keeps the reader reading.
And that was really hard.
And sorry, I'm sorry, I was like, this is the only time I'm gonna write this because thisis just way too difficult for my brain to figure out like all of the connections and make
(37:07):
them work.
Yeah, there's a really fantastic Y2's called The Losers by Harley LaRue.
Um, but I think it's just, yeah, just an incredible, uh, example of what you can do inthat space.
And they are such a gifted writer because they can like, they've found a way to sort of,they still do a little bit of clumping, you know, where it's like, okay, you know, these
(37:29):
two boys, these two boys are closer, but threading an emotional thread through all ofthem, including the heroine.
And making Kenya to your point about you don't feel like you can pluck any character outof the situation, it would be the same.
I think The Losers is a fantastic series for that because you need all of those charactersthere in order for the story to kind of reach its fullest potential.
(37:55):
You don't feel like you can pull anyone out.
And I think that's like PhD level writing there.
So I'm like, maybe I should just leave it to Harley and the experts.
This one's hard.
We know how I feel about hard.
Ha ha ha.
You are, you are a PhD level for a lot of us, because I'm like, a lot of times I'm like,this needs like, between you and my E might be like, this needs a little bit more Sierra.
(38:23):
And I'm not talking about, you know, the smut part.
I'm talking about your pros.
Like that, the pros, like your, you know, people come, you know, they may come for the,you know, the smut, but...
I think you stay in the longevity is because of just the way that you write the prose,right?
(38:47):
Because you marry those two so well.
And I know you do, you know, you're a very, you know, I don't even know what type ofwriter you would call yourself at this point.
Like, I was, you know, just very, just organically writing just what you love.
Like, how do you approach a story?
(39:09):
in a way and it's like you're using everything you have, you're putting it all on thepage.
Like, I guess that's what I'm saying.
How do you approach a story and you just make it just, the writing just so beautiful?
Are you just like constantly re-editing or what are you doing?
No, my writing is awful.
(39:30):
I, it's so funny that Kenya is saying this because she gets a text message from me everyweek that's like, this book is terrible and I'm gonna go put myself into a trash can now.
And then I can feel you getting irritated when I say, when I can feel you, and you canconfess and actually be honest and say, if you get irritated when I be like, oh my God,
(39:51):
you're so great because I just realized.
I know, cause I'm like, can you not do that?
I know Kitten knows you a little bit better than I do, but your writing is great.
I mean, I find myself, like, re-reading the books just to be like, man, like, let mefigure out how she pieced this sentence together and figure out what I'm doing wrong.
And how can I make mine sound this beautiful?
(40:13):
Thank you.
You're all wrong.
But thank you.
It's your podcast.
So but
I feel like she get an attitude when I say, oh my God, I just love it so much.
And she's like, whatever.
like, well, you're wrong.
Your opinion is wrong.
Now, I will say that the language matters to me, and I do think it's because of how mybrain conceives of like story and setting.
(40:40):
And so I'm someone who the visual look of the word and the sound of the word actuallyinforms how I feel about the setting and the character.
And I think because most of my books don't even start out with, like I'm a very settingfirst writer, which is not always typical in contemporary, but can you, you're a little
(41:03):
bit setting first too, where I feel like the town of Shelby Love is like such, it's almostlike its own character in the, in the book.
And, um, but for me, like I say, I'm setting first, but really what I am is atmospherefirst.
Like I'm trying to find my way into this certain atmosphere.
Um, so that I can like,
(41:24):
the atmosphere will be the gateway to the story.
And if I can nail the atmosphere, then I know that the rest of the story will kind offall, the dominoes will fall in the right way.
And so for me, the process of actually turning that feeling of the atmosphere into wordsshapes how I feel about the setting and the character.
(41:46):
And so I do, I'm a little bit of a slow drafter because I've learned that if I skip thisprocess or if I try to fast track it, you know, press fast forward on it, I end up with a
book that I kind of look back on and I'm like, hmm, like this feels like a little bit of aflaccid wiener, like, you know, that it could have been, it could have been a little
(42:08):
fuller, it could have served its purpose a little better.
And so the...
I, when I fast forward through it, I am just generally not as happy with the book.
And so I've decided it's just worth it to be a slower writer and let myself kind of takethe time to use words to shape how I want this story to feel and how I want certain
(42:31):
moments to kind of linger, you know, in the reader's mind.
Cause I think that, you know, like not all moments in a story are created equal.
Like we don't need to have like a flowery paragraph.
heroin, you know, brushing your teeth and getting ready for work.
But I do want a reader to sort of remember fireflies in the cloister in Saint, forexample.
(42:55):
And so for that moment, I will spend, you know, more time, I will be even more judiciousin my word choice, because I want that moment to sort of, to just have a lot of resonance,
right?
And so it's not like I spend all of my time being
you know, beautiful way that I can describe this character giving themselves an enema, youknow, like I definitely don't go there.
(43:20):
But the moment of connection during sex where, you know, you are looking into yourpartner's eyes, and this thing that was kind of uncomfortable now feels amazing, and
you're just sharing this moment of sweaty connection like that I will spend, you know,time on.
So I would say even inside my own books, not all words are created equal, not allparagraphs are like
deserving of the same attention that I would give, you know, the anal sex moment ofconnection.
(43:48):
but you do it, you know, so well.
Like my thing with Stank, and that's what I was immediately thinking of because I have, Ithink I was telling you in real time how much, you know, the train ride, the when we begin
the story, the beer, the, you just, I don't know, lavender.
lavender.
(44:10):
just I never
appreciation for lavender because of that book, you know, it's just the way that you wrotethe way that you write the Just string words together is just a beautiful just testament
of utilizing your gift I will say one of the hottest scenes ever and is the when Greer islike Serving at the pleasure of the president by the desk
(44:44):
sorry.
Baby, you gon' let me tell you something.
Y'all gon' see that scene again in the Kenya Gordell book.
That's what I do.
I read just so I can be like.
Yes, listen, if I see something, what gets me is like when you see something and you waslike, okay, they pull or they punch.
(45:06):
You don't ever have to worry about that with Ciara.
She's not pulling her punch.
You know, she's like, and then when he had Embry to watch.
you know, and then, and I was just like...
pins and needles when she discovers Ash and Embry the first time because I was like, oh mygod, stop, she's coming!
No wait, but-
(45:26):
Ehehehe
after that scene, right, when they were in the office and then he was telling Embry, youknow, I know you want a little taste or whatever like that.
Like that was like, I'm like, what is he doing?
Is he playing?
And everyone is so bad.
(45:51):
You know, I think that there is, to all the smut writers who are listening, what I alwaysdo is I, when I am coming up to a scene, is I ask myself what's in the setting that I can
use.
You know, like what is in the setting?
Because I do think that the gravitational pull for every sex scene to be two people lyingsideways in a bed, right?
(46:18):
It's a strong pull.
It's very easy to find yourself writing that because that's how a lot of us, especially ifwe've been in long-term relationships, find ourselves having sex, right?
And so it's very easy to write that over and over again.
And so a long, long time ago, I heard this is, gosh, 2014.
I heard Christina Lauren talking at...
(46:39):
the Romantic Times convention, RIP, RT, you were a great convention while you lasted.
And they were talking about how they wrote sex scenes.
And I can't remember if it was Christina or Lo, but one of them said, you know, we'realways trying to use the setting as much as we can.
You know, if they're in a bathroom of a Vegas casino, if they're in a hammock, likewhatever it is, like we're gonna try to kind of find the promise of the premise of the
(47:08):
setting.
and use it.
And so ever since then, and this was even before I started writing sexy books that I heardthis, but at the time I was writing in adult and I was like, Oh, that's great advice for
kissing scenes and even fight scenes too.
You know, John, so great about this about being like, I'm fighting in a kitchen, I'mfighting on some steps in Paris, you know, I'm fighting in a weird art installation with
(47:28):
mirrors.
How can I use this setting to make this fight scene feel distinct?
And so I'm always looking for that promise of the premise inside the setting.
So
If I'm a reader and someone is in a lavender field or they walk into a sanctuary of achurch or they're in the Oval Office, like what are the things that a reader might be
(47:50):
like, oh I wonder if you know they're gonna do this and to try to try to do that.
Yeah, because that's the resolute desk.
Like, if you're not going to use the resolute, isn't that what it's called, thepresident's desk, for that purpose, then...
that at least JFK wasn't using the Resolute Desk for that.
(48:14):
At the very least, JFK was.
Obviously you weren't married to Kenya cause I would have been coming every day to get apresident and his medicine as my husband likes to put it.
I'm like, why are you so grumpy?
Oh my God, you need your medicine.
I'm sorry.
(48:35):
Anyway, they need their medicine ladies.
Give them their medicine.
Okay, so let's talk about what you're working on now.
You're doing, you have a project right now with your best friend Julie Murphy, who I'mkind of jealous of because I feel like I should be your best friend too.
(48:59):
Yeah!
I have many best friends.
I'm, I'm Polly best friend-imus.
Yes, like, listen, I am, I am always the second best friend.
The see that's why I can work in work being like a multiple relationship, because I'm justlike,
(49:19):
the baby only in the first.
Like the God of the Old Testament, you are a jealous God.
Yes, goddess, goddess.
I think it's a goddess.
Listen, but you're working on a project with your bestie, Julie Murphy, the ChristmasNotch series, which I love very, I got a sign, one signed copy waiting on my other signed
(49:44):
copies.
And and it's been wildly successful.
Y'all been traveling everywhere, doing book signings.
And you also have the Liamy's.
series that you're working on.
Tell us about those things and what is the next big thing you have coming up that we needto be looking forward to?
(50:07):
Yeah, so like you said, Julie and I are working on the Christmas Notch series.
Christmas Notch is a small town in Vermont where it's Christmas 24 hours a day, seven daysa week, 365 days a year.
And this forever Christmas town is a place where a lot of Christmas movies are shot.
(50:28):
And so the first book in the series opens with a...
adult film producer who has decided to moonlight making Christmas movies because he'slike, this is the same thing just without sex, not great scripts, not great costuming and
set, do it in a week and then you're done.
And so he's like, how hard can it be?
(50:48):
And I've got like, you know, my kids art school tuition to pay for.
So how hard can it be?
Except there is a tragic music festival accident and he has to recast his main actress.
and he sort of semi accidentally casts one of his favorite porn stars to act in thisChristmas movie.
(51:09):
And so she gets to set and she's got one rule which is no one can know who you really arebecause this is a wholesome Christmas movie.
Wholesome Christmas movies and sex do not mix.
No one can know who you are, but she gets there and on the first day she learns that herco-star is her number one subscriber and fan.
(51:30):
And so things get very raunchy from there on out.
And all of our books are queer and size inclusive, sex worker positive.
We wanted to sort of create a small town.
Like Kenya, I feel like you went in the other direction with like, this isn't yourgrandmother's small town.
And where you're like, because there's murder.
(51:53):
Hehehe
water.
you know, everyone is just like, it's just sort of inclusive from the ground up.
And so everyone feels like they can come to Christmas notch and be safe.
And so we wanted to create Christmas notch as this sort of world.
So the last book in that series is coming out this fall.
(52:16):
It's called the Jingle Bell Mingle.
Uh, and it is about a, uh, sad widower and, uh,
a very sunshiny plus-size sex worker who ends up moving into his mansion, and they becomekind of roommates with benefits.
And there is a Christmas miracle, and her homicidal cat is also living with them.
(52:39):
And then Julie and I are not done, so we are going to have another series after theirafter Christmas notch, so we're going to start working on that this year.
And I don't know a whole lot about it yet, except that
I think it's going to be college professor and nanny, who's also a student.
say less.
Because one thing about the Christmas Notch series, which is unlike a lot of otherrom-coms, is actually funny.
(53:08):
It's actually funny.
I actually laugh with every book.
It's actually filthy, like I say, filthy sweet.
And filthy sweet and funny, right?
And it's a Thickums book with Thickums characters.
And I'm glad you've always written stories where, you know, the curvy girl books, wherethe heroines, where you gave thick girls.
(53:35):
And of course, Julie is well known.
quote filthy sweet and funny like I love it
love that.
Yeah.
So this video's funny.
it.
You are now allowed to make t-shirts with a candy cane, with a candy cane on it.
I'll make you some stickers, don't worry.
Cause now that I have the cricket, I am insane with it, making stickers.
(53:55):
So yeah, I'll make y'all some cute stickers.
Okay, so, but I feel like you guys have really knocked it out the part with that.
Then you got your solo project.
the Leonese books that you have, which started out with Salt in the Womb, Salt Kiss, andnow Honeycutt is coming out when.
(54:23):
So Honeycutt is coming out in June and this series is, so for anyone who likes NewCamelot, this is a kinky queer contemporary retelling of the Mark Tristan Easthold story,
but hopefully if I've done my job it doesn't feel like a cookie cutter of New Camelot, youknow, hopefully it feels like its own kind of...
(54:45):
It feels like a totally separate thing.
And then she did my favorite thing, but with a boy.
Cause y'all know I got a virgin king.
Y'all know Tia got a virgin king.
Y'all know that's it.
My favorite thing is the deflowering.
Listen, I live for that.
(55:08):
He has no flowers left.
Front or back.
And so Salt in the Wound is actually a free ebook.
So for anyone who's interested in starting the series, it's a prequel to kind of the wholetrilogy.
And it's free on all the vendors.
You can go to my website and find Salt in the Wound and it's free on Amazon and Apple.
(55:30):
make sure when you're clicking on the podcast, hopefully they, we should, we'll try toinclude the information for like your website and that kind of thing.
Perfect and yeah so you can get a little taste of the series for free.
And so Honeycutt is coming out this summer.
I finished I'm like in the final stages where I'm about to get past pages past pages frommy publisher and I can say it's very unhinged.
(55:56):
And I mean very different from New Camelot and that New Camelot is the story of threemostly good people falling in love.
And this series is a story of two monsters and a poor sweet golden retriever of a boy.
And I mean, it's really like watching two lions fight over a dead gazelle.
(56:18):
That's kind of what it feels like to me.
Your analogies are amazing.
This is why we love your writing.
Yes.
so you basically have our sweet, our virgin bodyguard, Tristan, who's just this sweetformer soldier boy.
And then you have two killers, two assassins.
(56:39):
One's for the Catholic Church and one is retired from the CIA.
And they're both, both of them are very morally gray.
Well, one of them thinks that she's doing the right thing because she kills people for thechurch, but our hero, our main hero, Mark, he's very morally gray.
And so there's...
This is a trilogy where I really kind of wanted to lean into writing a morally gray lovestory and kind of explore what that actually would look like.
(57:04):
But I love it so much that I actually think what's coming after the Lioness trilogy is thenext priest book.
And I actually think I'm gonna make that hero a morally gray anti-hero as well.
So I'm like, oh, I'm not gonna be done.
Yeah, I like it.
I'm all into my villains now.
That's all I'm writing for until I have an epiphany or some kind of moment or somethingbecause they are just so delicious.
(57:32):
Every bit of it is delicious.
will say for anyone who's kind of listening with sort of a craft mindset is that when youhave characters that only make good choices for themselves, you're really limiting the
amount of conflict you can put into a story.
And I do know that there is, you know, there is a growing sort of space for low conflictstories.
(57:56):
And I think that's great.
I think that's soothing for a lot of people.
For me, I actually find that my, so I have OCD, I have ADHD, I have a lot of, I have allthe alphabet letters as well, but for me, my anxiety actually is soothed by catharsis.
(58:16):
And so extreme stories with extreme characters, and then when it reaches that moment ofresolution, I feel that catharsis.
And so for me, it's actually soothing to read things like that.
you know, dark romance or taboo romance, very intense stories that is helped.
That's like, that's a service to me as well.
(58:36):
That's like medicinal for me.
And so when you are creating characters who only make good choices, you are creatingstories where you're kind of limiting the amount of conflict you can put in, right.
And I think that that's some of that comes from an impulse of like, well, we don't wantto, I don't know, glamorize bad characters.
But
(58:57):
When you have characters who are morally gray or they're anti-heroes or they're villains,they just leave bad choices all over the place, like crumbs, you know?
Like they are like, like the Charlie Brown, who's the kid with the blanket who's alwaysgot the like dirt around him.
Yeah, like those are anti-heroes and bad choices.
(59:19):
Like they are just carrying bad choices with them wherever they go.
And you don't...
You don't have to justify it.
You don't have to say, you know, like, you don't have to create sort of elaborate excusesfor why a good person would make a bad decision because this person's already bad.
So of course their choices are going to be, you know, not great.
(59:39):
And so it creates so much conflict in your story when you have a villain because they areonly operating on what they want.
They don't care about anyone else.
And so their story is a journey to caring about someone else getting to that point.
Yes.
And so it's just, it makes it so easy to write a tense story when you already havecharacters who don't give a shit about making good decisions.
(01:00:04):
I'm gonna go.
Yeah, and I also like the corrupting of the innocent, for some reason.
You know, I just, whatever.
I don't think there has to be a pathology to it.
Like, I mean, I've seen people pathologize that and say, you know, it's because of the wayour culture has structured sex or the way our culture has structured gender and our
(01:00:26):
culture has structured power.
I think all of that is probably true in the background, but I also think like, we can onlywrite in the environment that we're in now.
And so that's, you know, if that's a story that helps us make sense of the environmentthat
that helps us make sense of the environment that we use, and we sort of like we have thedarkest of our hours, then like it's good, it's a good story to tell.
(01:00:50):
Yes, well oh my goodness this has been an amazing hour to sit and chat with you about oneof our favorite series,
We really appreciate you so much for coming on.
I know I said we're gonna put your website and everything in the description of this, butif you wanna go ahead and just give those out now as well, that would be great.
Yeah, so you can find me, my website is thesierracimone.com.
(01:01:14):
That's pretty much the most comprehensive index of new releases.
And then also I have all of my books and the reading order listed there.
You can also find me on Instagram at thesierracimone.
I am not online a whole lot.
I'm kind of an internet introvert.
And so I live like a hermit, but I do send out a monthly newsletter and I get more chattyin my newsletter.
(01:01:38):
So you can subscribe to my newsletter from my website as well.
And that is also a great place if you're looking for new releases or books on sale.
And then every newsletter I give away two or three free romance books.
So if you like freebies too, it's a good place to go.
She has a great newsletter, you guys.
I get it and I just, and I love it.
(01:01:59):
So, but yes.
So thank you for joining us on our inaugural Author Spotlight podcast.
is the virgin one and we know how you Yeah I don't I mean there's not very many firstsleft in this life.
So i'm like i'm honored that I got to be part of this one The last one Well, thank youguys so much for having me I really appreciate it
(01:02:30):
Okay.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Hello and welcome to the Author Spotlight with Kenyagori Bell and Moni Boyce.
Our guest today is USA Today bestselling author, Ciara Simone.
Ciara, if you would like to introduce yourself a little bit more.
Yeah, well, thank you guys so much for having me.
I'm Ciara Simone.
I write provocative erotic romance.
(00:26):
I write in contemporary queer historical paranormal spaces.
And yeah, I'm just really excited to be here today.
We're so happy to have you.
Thank you for being our first guest.
So Sierra, you know I'm a big fan of yours.
You were one of the first people who was in the original author spotlight live on IG.
(00:50):
So welcome back.
And Moni and I went back and forth a lot about which series we wanted to talk aboutbecause we love your work so much.
But...
We settled on the American Camelot series and talking about Greer, Embree, and Maxim.
(01:12):
And so just, so welcome and thank you for, I'm sorry, my Siri.
Thank you so much for coming.
What inspired that series?
Well, I feel like this is an interesting question to answer because for most of usauthors, I would say that what happens is we have sort of ideas or premises or characters
(01:42):
that are kind of like simmering in the back of our mind.
And then something happens on a more like recent time scale that kind of unlocks it.
You know, like there might be like, oh, I think I'd like to write a single dad romance orsomething.
And then one day.
you're driving to work and you see someone, a man, rescuing a baby kitten, you know, offthe side of the road.
(02:03):
And then all of a sudden, the book really takes shape.
It's almost like these larger ideas sometimes need like just like a detail or some sort oflike specific thing to really unlock them.
But for New Camelot, it was really a story that I'd been wanting to tell for, since I was16.
(02:24):
And so it was almost like I was just waiting for my storytelling to be ready for it.
I was obsessed with King Arthur in high school.
I knew very early on that I was destined, I wanted to write my own version of a KingArthur story, but I was going to fix it.
(02:44):
But I didn't really understand how I was going to fix it yet.
Like it really didn't kind of come, come to me.
And I think
uh, known enough about like, uh, my own queerness or queer characters or polyamory to findthe way to fix it.
And of course the way to fix that story is just for everyone to be in love.
(03:06):
Uh, so spoiler alert, if you guys have not read New Camelot, anyone who's listening, um,it's not a love triangle.
It's a story about three people who are in love, um, and still manage to break eachother's hearts over and over again, as they kind of stumble towards us happily ever after.
And so it was my sort of obsession with King Arthur that led to like the genesis of thestory.
(03:29):
But really I think what happened was I needed to change.
You know, I needed like another 10 or 15 years to kind of change who I was and reallyunderstand who I was as a storyteller to tell the story the way that it's told now.
I actually kind of love that.
(03:50):
I always kind of say in my former life, I was a filmmaker.
And so there was always, you know, you always have those films or those stories whereyou're like, when we have the budget, we want to make this.
And so I kind of love like as a writer, you knew that you wanted to tell this great storyand that you weren't ready to tell it yet.
You weren't matured enough as a writer to tell a story.
And so you waited.
(04:11):
I think for some people that can be hard to say like, I'm gonna wait.
You know, because some people just want to rush right out and like I'm gonna do this nowand so I love that even then you were just like I'm gonna sit on this until I'm like know
that I can tell the story that I want to tell
Yeah, and I should like caveat this with saying I think that there are some authors whoare who go too far in the other direction where they're like I'm not I'm not good enough
(04:37):
to write the story yet and then what happens is it kind of keeps getting pushed you knowover the horizon and you know you're only ever gonna be you're only ever gonna have the
tools you have now in some degree and so I don't I don't want to make it sound like I'mlike encouraging that like yeah you should wait to start on your master don't do it.
Um, but I do think that it is actually, um, it becomes easier to tell with authorialexperience.
(05:04):
The more you write, the more you publish, the more you read other people's writing and,you know, just engage with this industry, the better you get at diagnosing if sort of the
bread is done baking, you know, like you get better at telling.
And it's just how like good cooks are able to, you know, taste the soup and be like thesoup's ready or it needs a little bit more.
(05:25):
You get better at diagnosing, I think, if you're ready or if the story's ready.
And I do think that exciting stories always come with a little bit of discomfort, a littlebit of like fear that you're not gonna do it justice and you do have to take that leap of
faith.
But I do think that sometimes it helps to know like, yes, this is ready.
Like if I take this leap of faith, it's gonna meet me where I'm at versus I'm just soexcited to do this but I haven't done any research, I haven't used.
(05:55):
Yes.
that I'm just jumping in right now.
And then you might still get there in the end, but it might be harder.
And I don't like harder.
I like easier.
And I think what's interesting also, you said this story, the story had been in you sinceyou were 15.
And you wrote it when you were what, 30 or whatever, 25.
(06:19):
So, but you haven't had that life experience, of course, but what you have written at 15.
You know what I'm saying?
So that makes a lot of sense.
But let's talk about a little bit about your fearlessness and writing.
this story as well as the Bell Brothers because you wrote Priest which is another like fanfavorite 100 percent naughty book that I was scared to touch because I was like actually I
(06:51):
read Sinner first and I was like because of my upbringing as a born-again ChristianSouthern National Baptist, not Southern.
I was like, I'm not touching that with football, but and you and your upbringing, how wereyou able to push and you do this so well, first of all, I love it.
(07:16):
But how do you push past those boundaries that have been set by society and your faith andyour in culture and everything and just leave nothing?
on leave nothing on the table and put it all in your books.
What what makes you be able to be so brave?
(07:37):
I, you know, I don't know how brave I am because I do feel constantly riddled with fear.
But I do say that, you know, I think when you're writing, we always sort of want tosupersede that fear, we want to grow past the point where the fear feels like it's taking
up space in our heads.
But I've kind of taken a different approach to it where
(08:00):
you know, there's this story of the Buddha and he had a demon chasing him named Mara andMara was always trying to like catch the Buddha, you know, trick him and all this stuff.
And so one day Mara decides he's gonna trick the Buddha by disguising himself and sittingdown to tea with the Buddha.
And then he's gonna be like, surprise, you know, it was me all along.
(08:24):
But of course the Buddha immediately recognizes him.
And the Buddha just takes tea with this demon and says, well, I see you.
And I'm glad that we're sharing tea right now.
And so I heard that story years ago, and I'm sure that it has deeper metaphysicalmeanings, but to me, I took it as an invitation to sit down and have tea with my fear and
(08:46):
to say, okay, well, like, I think it's gonna be harder to chase you away, but I see you, Isee what you are.
And actually, instead of trying to fight you,
let's just share tea together and you can tell me about your day and I'll tell you aboutmine.
And so I have instead tried to make friends with my fear and listen to what my fear istrying to tell me.
(09:07):
And if my fear is trying to tell me that what I'm afraid of is something that I was taughtor something that other people say, then I know that my fear is trying to protect me, is
trying to keep me safe, right?
Like this is what the human...
impulse of fear is doing is trying to keep you safe from the from the bear or whatever.
(09:30):
And so I can say, okay, I know right now you're trying to keep me safe, but actually, Ithink that someone needs to go outside.
And even if there is a bear.
And then other times, if my fear is telling me I'm worried that this is going this is ascenario that you're writing where your character is going to have less dignity, I am
worried that this story is going to dehumanize your characters.
(09:53):
then that's a situation where I say, okay, fear, like I think that you're, this isimportant for me to look at.
Thank you for pointing this out to me so that I can look at it and make sure that I'm notinadvertently doing this and that there's, I might need to change the story or perhaps I
just need to deepen the story and make the characters in the situation deeper so that weunderstand how it's not dehumanizing.
(10:19):
And so I really am grateful to fear for that.
But I also think that I naturally tend to write kind of in words.
I'm a very sort of interior.
My writing process is very interior, which I don't think that there's a good or bad way tobe because I know a lot of storytellers who are very external in their storytelling.
(10:39):
Like I want to say this, or I'm just so excited for readers to have this kind of story.
But for me, it's a very internal process.
And that helps, I think, because my priority when I'm writing.
is service to the story, is service to the characters and making them as complex anddisruptive as I possibly can.
(11:00):
And so that helps me too, when I'm trying to create in my laboratory to help me shut outthe outside voices.
There's no helping that once you publish, right?
Like that's sort of the game is that you're saying, okay, I'm flinging open the doors, theoutside voices can come in now.
But I think writers as much as possible.
(11:21):
we have to sort of be able to segue between our sort of outward facing selves, you know,the version of ourselves that markets, that promotes, that does take in, you know,
critical reviews and kind of assess, you know, if there's something there that means weneed to change.
And then moving back into the, I call it the laboratory.
There's probably a romantic word, you know, the sanctum.
(11:46):
Yeah, like research and development.
I just imagine myself with like goggles, you know, like
smoke coming out of beakers and stuff like that.
And being able to segue from that sort of external space back into our interior spacewhere we have to allow ourselves to make mistakes.
We have to allow ourselves to run experiments that might not net anything productive.
(12:08):
We have to allow ourselves to be playful.
And the point of play is that it is pointless.
Play does not have a directed end.
And so we have to allow ourselves to get back into that mindset.
And that is cultivated, I think.
I think some people are naturally gifted at it, but I do think that a lot of us have tocultivate the ability to move back into an internal space where we're not gonna let
(12:31):
outside voices change the way our creativity works.
Yeah, I
(13:05):
um is that you know like you said you're kind of an interior writer and um I think that'simportant for especially writers coming up to not get so stuck on like Oh, it has to be
vampires right now because that's like, you know What the hot new thing is because guesswhat that might not be what you're good at writing um, and so I think that you kind of
(13:29):
have to Follow your heart a little bit so to speak because I mean, I think that's moreit's
Your writing is going to come through more authentically if it's something that you're, Iguess, for lack of a better word, passionate about or, you know, something that really
speaks to you.
Yeah, I mean, I think in some ways we're kind of limited by the way our dopamine operates.
(13:52):
And so I have, you know, I think we all know awesome, incredible writers who writeawesome, incredible books who are the kind of writers where the act of writing and the act
of publishing, the act of triangulating the market, they just get so much dopamine fromthat.
And so writing eight books a year, where it's, you know,
(14:15):
know, eight siblings, and, you know, every cover is the same, and you can market them asinterconnected standalones.
Like, they're able to make all these incredible publishing decisions, because theirdopamine is set up, that it feels great, and they have a great time doing it.
And I always tell people, like, if you sense that that's you, do it that way, because thatis the easiest way in romance.
(14:41):
but that's true!
is to do it, but my dopamine is not set up that way.
I have to write what I'm interested in, and what I'm interested in is not always going tobe vampires when vampires are hot, or hockey when hockey is hot, or I don't know when the
next thing is going to be golfing.
Like, I can't make myself go there unless I'm genuinely interested in it.
(15:05):
And for a long time, I found that to be an impediment, because if you take workshops,
in this industry, if you take classes, if you go to conferences, the people who are themost likely to be giving those workshops and classes are people who are, they love to
achieve, they're achievers, you know, and so they love that kind of executing, they lovestrategy.
(15:26):
And so for a long time, I felt it was really deficient of me to be such an organic writer.
But what I can say is that there was no changing it.
I've tried for years.
I like this, you know, this is the brain I have.
and working with it instead of trying to work against it has made my life so much easier.
And I also think that organic stories tend to be a little bit more timeless.
(15:51):
So even if you don't find yourself having a big spike into that top 100 on release day, Ido think that those books have a longer tail.
They last a long time and people can recommend them seven years later and it doesn't feellike, you know, you're being handed stale popcorn.
And so there's something about those organic stories that do, I think, even from abusiness perspective, carry their weight.
(16:17):
Yes.
because I am like this.
I will.
But first, let me say this.
If anybody can make golf interesting and sexy, it would be you.
Because listen, I want to see that book, baby, if whoever can do it.
If you can make it not watching like he goes wide on the third.
(16:42):
Anybody who can do that, it would be you.
It would be you.
It's.
announcer impression, I gotta say.
Thank you, thank you.
I was not in theater for all of those years for nothing.
Okay.
If you didn't know, I'm very theatrical.
Okay, I'm very dramatic.
Anyway, so, and I kind of forgot what I was going to say because I went off on a tangentas one does.
(17:10):
Bring it back.
Let me.
Okay.
What I love, what I was going to say, of course, bringing it back to me is like on trendsand things like that, I will be like on tropes.
Friends and lovers, but not.
Small town, but make it not like any small town you're currently reading.
(17:39):
There's nothing sweet and kind and hallmark about my small town.
But what I love about you, and please explain to the people why you love legends so much,because you did an authoritarian, saying it correctly, authoritarian.
Anyway, I'm from Alabama, y'all, excuse me.
(18:01):
Authorian, whatever, legend.
Then you have the Leonese legend.
Why do you love, and say the words correctly, because I know I messed them up, legend somuch.
I don't even bother to say Arthurian most of the time.
I'll just be like, King Arthur.
It's a mouthful.
Yeah, no, no.
(18:24):
And...
let the people believe you earned your masters in English, Kenya.
Anyway, I forgot all of that stuff.
The resident medievalist at the university near my house wants to get lunch in a fewmonths because she's, you know, she enjoyed New Camelot and stuff.
And I was like, I am so dreading this lunch where she realizes how dumb I am.
(18:52):
She's gonna be like speaking to me in like middle English and like, you know, making allthese.
No, it's not gonna be good.
Well, here's a couple of things that I find compelling about legend and myths, is thatthese stories are not only have they shaped our culture today, so they're like resonant
(19:13):
because we have continued to iterate on these stories throughout the years, but there'ssomething just sort of inherently powerful about most of them.
And for most of them, it's because they're tragic, right?
There's a very human tragedy.
What I like about legends and myths is that they highlight both how our own flaws can leadto tragedy and also how some things are just arbitrary.
(19:43):
You know, like some things just happen and they're just bad and there's no rhyme or reasonfor it.
I mean, that's like a lot of Greek myths, right?
It's like you're minding your own business and you're just on the wrong side of a godtoday and now you're a spider.
you know, and like, there's, there's nothing you can do about it.
Or, you know, you make an innocent remark about how you might be prettier than Aphrodite,and you're just screwed.
(20:06):
And so like, everything kind of happens in this sort of arbitrary landscape.
But that's life, right?
Like, life is arbitrary.
And so there's something really powerful about that kind of storytelling.
But I also as a, as a writer, I really enjoy things like prompts, right?
Because
we've all faced that situation where you sit down to like a blank manuscript and you'relike, okay, I can write anything.
(20:32):
And then it's like, oh God, I could write anything.
Like how am I even gonna narrow it down?
And so a prompt is great because it kind of gives you that starting point, it narrows yourfocus and says, no, write about this.
And I find that legends and myths are like prompts in that way.
And what's great about them is that most of them, like really until you get to the 1400s,1500s, don't have very much interiority on the characters at all.
(21:02):
Like if you read a Greek myth, like it's very rare that they're gonna give you like a lookat to what the character is feeling.
Like you don't know what these characters are feeling.
And you might get one or two sentences, a story that...
Demeter is sad or Hercules is sad or something like that.
But for the most part, you don't know what they're feeling.
(21:26):
And so as a writer, that's like a great prompt, right?
Like, what are they feeling?
Like, why would they do that?
Like, why would you cheat on your husband who's like the best king ever with a knight?
You know, like, why would you do that?
What would make you pursue that choice?
And so it's like a prompt for me to like figure out like, okay, how...
(21:47):
What are the situations that would lead to this?
What are the feelings that would build on each other for a character to make thisobviously bad choice?
And so it's like useful for me in that way too.
Okay, so my thing with New Camelot, I said American Camelot because I'm always thinkingabout American Queen, but when you read the first book and then you, I came away feeling
(22:17):
that Maxson was a psychopath or some kind of, but the kind of, but he loved them both somuch, right?
So, and then...
Then we see the development more and more in each person's story about how much they lovethe other two people, right?
(22:42):
So in the process of writing this story and developing these characters, what was the mostchallenging thing for you to get all of them woven together?
Because of all of the three, I have to say, because of my own mental issues.
I really love Maxson and I think I've been rewriting him a little bit.
(23:04):
Hahaha
I get stuck on a man for a while and for a while, he had a lot of free time in my brain.
So how did you get and craft these?
Because with all of your heroes in your stories, I love the women, but I'm really into themen.
(23:29):
What is it that made you create such a dynamic character and then make him...
be so also, you know, kind of scary, kind of, you know, this, this whole person, thiswhole persona of a king author or whatever.
You know, I think that really for me, the answer for all characters, but especially inTanu Camelot, is to just go down to like the bone of the characters.
(24:00):
And I wish that I had like a streamlined process that I could just like be like, here'sthe flow chart of how I create characters where I generally find it's very messy and
recursive.
And so, but one of the things that I really,
learned about myself is that I have to start writing the character in order to learn aboutthe character and I have to just accept that the more I learn the possibility grows and
(24:30):
I'm going to have to go back and tweak some things in the beginning and this is upsettingfor anyone who wants to write a book like a 3d printer you know where it's like it comes
out perfectly as you go um but for me I'm not I just unfortunately
I'm not wired in the way where I can create the full depth of a character before I startwriting them.
(24:55):
I know some authors who are fantastic at it where they can create entire characterprofiles and, you know, really get down to sort of the bones of them before they even
start writing the story.
And for me, it's kind of the I kind of have to do it and I say recursive, but
I write about 10,000 words and then I start making some character notes.
(25:18):
And then I write another 10,000 words and then I start writing some character notes.
And then around the 40 or 50,000 word mark, I'm like, aha, I've figured it out.
I know exactly what it is about them.
And so as I go back and I do like a pass through what I've already written, it's aboutpulling out those threads.
And what I will say is that a lot of times my brain unconsciously knew.
(25:41):
what was, you know, what was there, and I just had to see it.
And so a lot of times those threads, those sort of breadcrumbs are already there, youknow, and they just need like a little bit of a spotlight turned on them.
So the reader can be like, Oh, yeah, like they're kissing under the mistletoe.
See?
And, but when you're working on creating complex characters who can sustain a three bookstory, right, and that's
(26:08):
That's part of it, is that I don't go through this process for a 10,000 word novella,where I feel like, you know, I need to really be down into the bone marrow of the
character.
laughing because I cannot imagine, and I know you struggle with it, you writing short,because I can't do it.
(26:28):
Yeah!
It's hard, it's rough.
And that's why I have to consciously limit myself on setting in character for shortstories because I'll write as much as there is to write.
So I just have to make sure like, nope, you're just writing about these two very simplepeople snowed in a cabin or whatever.
(26:50):
And so I don't think that this is a process that you have to go through.
And this is another thing, this is like knowing when the soup is done, knowing when thebread is done, that I think as you have more time writing and you have more time reading
and you're just in this business, you get a lot better at picking up a story idea andholding it in your hands and saying, this is a three book series, this is a 40,000 word,
(27:15):
you know, thing, this is a 10,000 word novella.
You get, you get pretty adept at that, I think.
But yeah, for a character who's going to sustain three books, like...
I need to be sequencing his genome.
And so, because, yeah, and part of the issue is that, I think romance is a lot like horrorin this way, which they're usually two very different genres.
(27:39):
But one of the ways that they are similar is that your horror loses impact, the morecertainty the story builds.
So as, yeah, as...
Like once the monster is revealed, the monster is immediately less scary.
And yeah, and this is why a lot of alien movies aren't scary to me because you see thealiens, you know right away it's aliens, right?
(28:04):
And I think there are some clever movies like Signs that keep threading that uncertaintythroughout the whole movie.
And that's why they're so successful because the longer there is uncertainty, the longerthat fear can last.
Well, it's
so right about that because I feel like I have a tendency to write a story and tell youexactly how uncertain and why, like, for instance, the first book I ever wrote, we
(28:29):
automatically know from the jump that she killed his wife in a tragic car accident.
And then I have the meat and they're about to fall in love and everybody's like, how thehell is this going to last because he doesn't know yet.
But eventually he's going to find out how can that work.
Because you're using, instead of audience uncertainty, it's character uncertainty.
(28:51):
And that's what you're using to hold up the attention.
And so I just think that it's the same in romance with theory of mind as well, whereusually it's our heroes that have a lot of mystery sort of veiled over their motivations.
We don't know how much he loves the protagonist.
(29:11):
We don't know if he loves the protagonist.
We don't know what he's thinking.
And this is why you have to be so careful in dual POV to make sure that you're not justimmediately giving away your tension with that mystery.
And so I think that like, when you're talking about a character who's, he's the last bookof a trilogy, he's kind of, he's sort of the center of their love story in a way.
(29:38):
Like even though there's three people, like he is kind of the, he is sort of the, I don'tknow, the daddy of the story.
And so making sure, I mean, in every way, and just making sure that his charactercomplexity or his nuance, I guess, like the layers of Maxon kind of kept going down so
(30:03):
that you still felt like there was some mystery, something shrouded, and that...
actually one of the things I loved is that while I felt like you were getting kind of likepeeling back the onion on the other two, not to say quickly, but you got more of their
story like right away.
I felt like he was always kind of shrouded in mystery still until like the, you know,almost like I'd say midway through like the last book.
(30:26):
Yeah, yeah.
And I mean, it's like how in your book, you know, you're sort of substituting characteruncertainty for audience uncertainty, you know, playing with things with what could be
sort of the unknown, right?
So the more you learn about his past, like the more you understand, okay, like, well, heaccidentally had a baby with his sister, could happen to anyone.
(30:52):
Sorry for anyone who is unfamiliar with the King Arthur legend.
But the why and the how that it happened is still something that you don't get untilyou're finally in his POV and so I think that is That's one of the things that I'm always
trying to calibrate is how can I keep as much Sort of mystery and allure to pull you inuntil that very last Moment and that way it feels satisfying and not like all of a sudden
(31:23):
the tension just dropped
And I don't know if anyone's ever read a book where it's like, I don't need to read thelast 30% of this.
Like, you know, they're together.
They're fine.
I like, I don't care about anything else.
Oh, they're being chased by, you know, like the coffee or something.
I don't care.
You know?
So like I am always trying to search for a way to calibrate a story so that by the timeeverything is known, your sense of satisfaction is deep enough that you're like, sure, I
(31:50):
can read another 10,000 words of them just kissing because I'm happy.
Hahaha
They deserve those last 10,000 words of smoochy after all the hell you put them through.
It's not.
But.
10 chapters of Hell, they get 2000 words of kissing.
That's my favorite.
(32:11):
No.
I just don't like writing happy characters.
And so it genuinely takes me three books of torturing a character to be like, OK, fine.
I guess you do have to have an epilogue.
But if it's a standalone, I want that epilogue to be as short as possible.
Because I'm like, now that you're happy I'm done.
(32:31):
Your work here is done.
see yourself writing just one book?
Just one stand alone, like, okay.
Like I know like with Sinner and that was a complete story.
That was not a trilogy or those books are different.
But I mean, just like something like where you got three people in this one book or Idon't even know how that would be possible with you.
(32:55):
I can't see it happening.
I think three people in one book will be tricky.
I know amazing, you know, Katie Robert has done it, Sarah Kate has done it, and they'reincredible.
They're incredible books.
I think for me, because I like to zoom in the camera lens onto like a piece of lint ontotheir sweater and then be like, look at this piece of lint, you know, and when the lint
(33:16):
was a little lint child, its lint dog got hit by a car.
And then I zoom out, you know, and I find another piece of lint.
So I just write so zoomed in that I take up so much word space that I think threecharacters in a standalone would be tricky.
I've done it technically with misadventures of a curvy girl, but I don't know if I coulddo it again.
I think one thing that I love about your book and I was having this conversation withanother author, it was like, it's so, I am not your typical MMF girl or three, I'm just
(33:49):
like one man, one woman, vanilla, for me, vanilla.
I don't know Kenya, like, you're really pushing what vanilla is.
but you know, it's vanilla in the sense that it's one man, one woman type of book.
But my thing is very few writers can write for me so well where if you pluck one of themout, like if you pluck Embry out, the book doesn't work.
(34:23):
You see what I'm saying?
Like in your books,
You're writing, so that's for me, that for me, like you could probably add like a few morepeople and do, you know, why choose?
And every character would have, do you see yourself going into the why choose?
More, like you do, yeah, they used to call it reverse here but now they say why choose?
(34:49):
Cause that's more appropriate.
But do you see yourself adding two or three more people?
Later in books.
it's an interesting question.
So with Thornchapel, I had six characters and at various points in the series, they allhave sex.
But what I found myself doing in Thornchapel was clumping people inside of that grouptogether.
(35:13):
So you had an FF couple and you had an MMF couple and then you have this priest who sortof, he's a floater, I guess.
And...
I found myself kind of clumping inside that larger group.
And I think that there might be a natural impulse there of my, you know, just a limitationmaybe of my own lens, but it was easier for me to sort of zoom in the way that I like to
(35:39):
zoom in with just two or three people.
Where I think, you know, why choose, you do have to sort of keep that like wider cameraangle lens in order to kind of get everyone on the screen.
And so I don't know, it's something that I've asked, I've thought about before, like, oh,is there like a Y2 story like burbling inside me?
And I just need to, you know, let it out.
(36:01):
But I haven't gotten there yet.
Like I think probably what'll happen is tomorrow, I'll wake up and see like a tube oftoothpaste and then I'll be like, here, the story is here.
But it's not quite here yet.
say though that you did it really well in making us very like invested in the charactersfor it to be like you know more than your typical like two-person romance.
(36:22):
I love that.
I mean I've before I started writing under my own name I used to be a ghost writer and soI only ever did one like um why choose in that man because I was like this is difficult to
do well.
Like I found it it's and it wasn't even just like the sex scenes and like whose limbs arewhere and what's going
(36:43):
to make sure there was like an emotional connection for the reader and not just like,don't get me wrong, obviously they want the gratuitous sex too, but it's like, you know,
you want there to be connection between the characters that keeps the reader reading.
And that was really hard.
And sorry, I'm sorry, I was like, this is the only time I'm gonna write this because thisis just way too difficult for my brain to figure out like all of the connections and make
(37:07):
them work.
Yeah, there's a really fantastic Y2's called The Losers by Harley LaRue.
Um, but I think it's just, yeah, just an incredible, uh, example of what you can do inthat space.
And they are such a gifted writer because they can like, they've found a way to sort of,they still do a little bit of clumping, you know, where it's like, okay, you know, these
(37:29):
two boys, these two boys are closer, but threading an emotional thread through all ofthem, including the heroine.
And making Kenya to your point about you don't feel like you can pluck any character outof the situation, it would be the same.
I think The Losers is a fantastic series for that because you need all of those charactersthere in order for the story to kind of reach its fullest potential.
(37:55):
You don't feel like you can pull anyone out.
And I think that's like PhD level writing there.
So I'm like, maybe I should just leave it to Harley and the experts.
This one's hard.
We know how I feel about hard.
Ha ha ha.
You are, you are a PhD level for a lot of us, because I'm like, a lot of times I'm like,this needs like, between you and my E might be like, this needs a little bit more Sierra.
(38:23):
And I'm not talking about, you know, the smut part.
I'm talking about your pros.
Like that, the pros, like your, you know, people come, you know, they may come for the,you know, the smut, but...
I think you stay in the longevity is because of just the way that you write the prose,right?
(38:47):
Because you marry those two so well.
And I know you do, you know, you're a very, you know, I don't even know what type ofwriter you would call yourself at this point.
Like, I was, you know, just very, just organically writing just what you love.
Like, how do you approach a story?
(39:09):
in a way and it's like you're using everything you have, you're putting it all on thepage.
Like, I guess that's what I'm saying.
How do you approach a story and you just make it just, the writing just so beautiful?
Are you just like constantly re-editing or what are you doing?
No, my writing is awful.
(39:30):
I, it's so funny that Kenya is saying this because she gets a text message from me everyweek that's like, this book is terrible and I'm gonna go put myself into a trash can now.
And then I can feel you getting irritated when I say, when I can feel you, and you canconfess and actually be honest and say, if you get irritated when I be like, oh my God,
(39:51):
you're so great because I just realized.
I know, cause I'm like, can you not do that?
I know Kitten knows you a little bit better than I do, but your writing is great.
I mean, I find myself, like, re-reading the books just to be like, man, like, let mefigure out how she pieced this sentence together and figure out what I'm doing wrong.
And how can I make mine sound this beautiful?
(40:13):
Thank you.
You're all wrong.
But thank you.
It's your podcast.
So but
I feel like she get an attitude when I say, oh my God, I just love it so much.
And she's like, whatever.
like, well, you're wrong.
Your opinion is wrong.
Now, I will say that the language matters to me, and I do think it's because of how mybrain conceives of like story and setting.
(40:40):
And so I'm someone who the visual look of the word and the sound of the word actuallyinforms how I feel about the setting and the character.
And I think because most of my books don't even start out with, like I'm a very settingfirst writer, which is not always typical in contemporary, but can you, you're a little
(41:03):
bit setting first too, where I feel like the town of Shelby Love is like such, it's almostlike its own character in the, in the book.
And, um, but for me, like I say, I'm setting first, but really what I am is atmospherefirst.
Like I'm trying to find my way into this certain atmosphere.
Um, so that I can like,
(41:24):
the atmosphere will be the gateway to the story.
And if I can nail the atmosphere, then I know that the rest of the story will kind offall, the dominoes will fall in the right way.
And so for me, the process of actually turning that feeling of the atmosphere into wordsshapes how I feel about the setting and the character.
(41:46):
And so I do, I'm a little bit of a slow drafter because I've learned that if I skip thisprocess or if I try to fast track it, you know, press fast forward on it, I end up with a
book that I kind of look back on and I'm like, hmm, like this feels like a little bit of aflaccid wiener, like, you know, that it could have been, it could have been a little
(42:08):
fuller, it could have served its purpose a little better.
And so the...
I, when I fast forward through it, I am just generally not as happy with the book.
And so I've decided it's just worth it to be a slower writer and let myself kind of takethe time to use words to shape how I want this story to feel and how I want certain
(42:31):
moments to kind of linger, you know, in the reader's mind.
Cause I think that, you know, like not all moments in a story are created equal.
Like we don't need to have like a flowery paragraph.
heroin, you know, brushing your teeth and getting ready for work.
But I do want a reader to sort of remember fireflies in the cloister in Saint, forexample.
(42:55):
And so for that moment, I will spend, you know, more time, I will be even more judiciousin my word choice, because I want that moment to sort of, to just have a lot of resonance,
right?
And so it's not like I spend all of my time being
you know, beautiful way that I can describe this character giving themselves an enema, youknow, like I definitely don't go there.
(43:20):
But the moment of connection during sex where, you know, you are looking into yourpartner's eyes, and this thing that was kind of uncomfortable now feels amazing, and
you're just sharing this moment of sweaty connection like that I will spend, you know,time on.
So I would say even inside my own books, not all words are created equal, not allparagraphs are like
deserving of the same attention that I would give, you know, the anal sex moment ofconnection.
(43:48):
but you do it, you know, so well.
Like my thing with Stank, and that's what I was immediately thinking of because I have, Ithink I was telling you in real time how much, you know, the train ride, the when we begin
the story, the beer, the, you just, I don't know, lavender.
lavender.
(44:10):
just I never
appreciation for lavender because of that book, you know, it's just the way that you wrotethe way that you write the Just string words together is just a beautiful just testament
of utilizing your gift I will say one of the hottest scenes ever and is the when Greer islike Serving at the pleasure of the president by the desk
(44:44):
sorry.
Baby, you gon' let me tell you something.
Y'all gon' see that scene again in the Kenya Gordell book.
That's what I do.
I read just so I can be like.
Yes, listen, if I see something, what gets me is like when you see something and you waslike, okay, they pull or they punch.
(45:06):
You don't ever have to worry about that with Ciara.
She's not pulling her punch.
You know, she's like, and then when he had Embry to watch.
you know, and then, and I was just like...
pins and needles when she discovers Ash and Embry the first time because I was like, oh mygod, stop, she's coming!
No wait, but-
(45:26):
Ehehehe
after that scene, right, when they were in the office and then he was telling Embry, youknow, I know you want a little taste or whatever like that.
Like that was like, I'm like, what is he doing?
Is he playing?
And everyone is so bad.
(45:51):
You know, I think that there is, to all the smut writers who are listening, what I alwaysdo is I, when I am coming up to a scene, is I ask myself what's in the setting that I can
use.
You know, like what is in the setting?
Because I do think that the gravitational pull for every sex scene to be two people lyingsideways in a bed, right?
(46:18):
It's a strong pull.
It's very easy to find yourself writing that because that's how a lot of us, especially ifwe've been in long-term relationships, find ourselves having sex, right?
And so it's very easy to write that over and over again.
And so a long, long time ago, I heard this is, gosh, 2014.
I heard Christina Lauren talking at...
(46:39):
the Romantic Times convention, RIP, RT, you were a great convention while you lasted.
And they were talking about how they wrote sex scenes.
And I can't remember if it was Christina or Lo, but one of them said, you know, we'realways trying to use the setting as much as we can.
You know, if they're in a bathroom of a Vegas casino, if they're in a hammock, likewhatever it is, like we're gonna try to kind of find the promise of the premise of the
(47:08):
setting.
and use it.
And so ever since then, and this was even before I started writing sexy books that I heardthis, but at the time I was writing in adult and I was like, Oh, that's great advice for
kissing scenes and even fight scenes too.
You know, John, so great about this about being like, I'm fighting in a kitchen, I'mfighting on some steps in Paris, you know, I'm fighting in a weird art installation with
(47:28):
mirrors.
How can I use this setting to make this fight scene feel distinct?
And so I'm always looking for that promise of the premise inside the setting.
So
If I'm a reader and someone is in a lavender field or they walk into a sanctuary of achurch or they're in the Oval Office, like what are the things that a reader might be
(47:50):
like, oh I wonder if you know they're gonna do this and to try to try to do that.
Yeah, because that's the resolute desk.
Like, if you're not going to use the resolute, isn't that what it's called, thepresident's desk, for that purpose, then...
that at least JFK wasn't using the Resolute Desk for that.
(48:14):
At the very least, JFK was.
Obviously you weren't married to Kenya cause I would have been coming every day to get apresident and his medicine as my husband likes to put it.
I'm like, why are you so grumpy?
Oh my God, you need your medicine.
I'm sorry.
(48:35):
Anyway, they need their medicine ladies.
Give them their medicine.
Okay, so let's talk about what you're working on now.
You're doing, you have a project right now with your best friend Julie Murphy, who I'mkind of jealous of because I feel like I should be your best friend too.
(48:59):
Yeah!
I have many best friends.
I'm, I'm Polly best friend-imus.
Yes, like, listen, I am, I am always the second best friend.
The see that's why I can work in work being like a multiple relationship, because I'm justlike,
(49:19):
the baby only in the first.
Like the God of the Old Testament, you are a jealous God.
Yes, goddess, goddess.
I think it's a goddess.
Listen, but you're working on a project with your bestie, Julie Murphy, the ChristmasNotch series, which I love very, I got a sign, one signed copy waiting on my other signed
(49:44):
copies.
And and it's been wildly successful.
Y'all been traveling everywhere, doing book signings.
And you also have the Liamy's.
series that you're working on.
Tell us about those things and what is the next big thing you have coming up that we needto be looking forward to?
(50:07):
Yeah, so like you said, Julie and I are working on the Christmas Notch series.
Christmas Notch is a small town in Vermont where it's Christmas 24 hours a day, seven daysa week, 365 days a year.
And this forever Christmas town is a place where a lot of Christmas movies are shot.
(50:28):
And so the first book in the series opens with a...
adult film producer who has decided to moonlight making Christmas movies because he'slike, this is the same thing just without sex, not great scripts, not great costuming and
set, do it in a week and then you're done.
And so he's like, how hard can it be?
(50:48):
And I've got like, you know, my kids art school tuition to pay for.
So how hard can it be?
Except there is a tragic music festival accident and he has to recast his main actress.
and he sort of semi accidentally casts one of his favorite porn stars to act in thisChristmas movie.
(51:09):
And so she gets to set and she's got one rule which is no one can know who you really arebecause this is a wholesome Christmas movie.
Wholesome Christmas movies and sex do not mix.
No one can know who you are, but she gets there and on the first day she learns that herco-star is her number one subscriber and fan.
(51:30):
And so things get very raunchy from there on out.
And all of our books are queer and size inclusive, sex worker positive.
We wanted to sort of create a small town.
Like Kenya, I feel like you went in the other direction with like, this isn't yourgrandmother's small town.
And where you're like, because there's murder.
(51:53):
Hehehe
water.
you know, everyone is just like, it's just sort of inclusive from the ground up.
And so everyone feels like they can come to Christmas notch and be safe.
And so we wanted to create Christmas notch as this sort of world.
So the last book in that series is coming out this fall.
(52:16):
It's called the Jingle Bell Mingle.
Uh, and it is about a, uh, sad widower and, uh,
a very sunshiny plus-size sex worker who ends up moving into his mansion, and they becomekind of roommates with benefits.
And there is a Christmas miracle, and her homicidal cat is also living with them.
(52:39):
And then Julie and I are not done, so we are going to have another series after theirafter Christmas notch, so we're going to start working on that this year.
And I don't know a whole lot about it yet, except that
I think it's going to be college professor and nanny, who's also a student.
say less.
Because one thing about the Christmas Notch series, which is unlike a lot of otherrom-coms, is actually funny.
(53:08):
It's actually funny.
I actually laugh with every book.
It's actually filthy, like I say, filthy sweet.
And filthy sweet and funny, right?
And it's a Thickums book with Thickums characters.
And I'm glad you've always written stories where, you know, the curvy girl books, wherethe heroines, where you gave thick girls.
(53:35):
And of course, Julie is well known.
quote filthy sweet and funny like I love it
love that.
Yeah.
So this video's funny.
it.
You are now allowed to make t-shirts with a candy cane, with a candy cane on it.
I'll make you some stickers, don't worry.
Cause now that I have the cricket, I am insane with it, making stickers.
(53:55):
So yeah, I'll make y'all some cute stickers.
Okay, so, but I feel like you guys have really knocked it out the part with that.
Then you got your solo project.
the Leonese books that you have, which started out with Salt in the Womb, Salt Kiss, andnow Honeycutt is coming out when.
(54:23):
So Honeycutt is coming out in June and this series is, so for anyone who likes NewCamelot, this is a kinky queer contemporary retelling of the Mark Tristan Easthold story,
but hopefully if I've done my job it doesn't feel like a cookie cutter of New Camelot, youknow, hopefully it feels like its own kind of...
(54:45):
It feels like a totally separate thing.
And then she did my favorite thing, but with a boy.
Cause y'all know I got a virgin king.
Y'all know Tia got a virgin king.
Y'all know that's it.
My favorite thing is the deflowering.
Listen, I live for that.
(55:08):
He has no flowers left.
Front or back.
And so Salt in the Wound is actually a free ebook.
So for anyone who's interested in starting the series, it's a prequel to kind of the wholetrilogy.
And it's free on all the vendors.
You can go to my website and find Salt in the Wound and it's free on Amazon and Apple.
(55:30):
make sure when you're clicking on the podcast, hopefully they, we should, we'll try toinclude the information for like your website and that kind of thing.
Perfect and yeah so you can get a little taste of the series for free.
And so Honeycutt is coming out this summer.
I finished I'm like in the final stages where I'm about to get past pages past pages frommy publisher and I can say it's very unhinged.
(55:56):
And I mean very different from New Camelot and that New Camelot is the story of threemostly good people falling in love.
And this series is a story of two monsters and a poor sweet golden retriever of a boy.
And I mean, it's really like watching two lions fight over a dead gazelle.
(56:18):
That's kind of what it feels like to me.
Your analogies are amazing.
This is why we love your writing.
Yes.
so you basically have our sweet, our virgin bodyguard, Tristan, who's just this sweetformer soldier boy.
And then you have two killers, two assassins.
(56:39):
One's for the Catholic Church and one is retired from the CIA.
And they're both, both of them are very morally gray.
Well, one of them thinks that she's doing the right thing because she kills people for thechurch, but our hero, our main hero, Mark, he's very morally gray.
And so there's...
This is a trilogy where I really kind of wanted to lean into writing a morally gray lovestory and kind of explore what that actually would look like.
(57:04):
But I love it so much that I actually think what's coming after the Lioness trilogy is thenext priest book.
And I actually think I'm gonna make that hero a morally gray anti-hero as well.
So I'm like, oh, I'm not gonna be done.
Yeah, I like it.
I'm all into my villains now.
That's all I'm writing for until I have an epiphany or some kind of moment or somethingbecause they are just so delicious.
(57:32):
Every bit of it is delicious.
will say for anyone who's kind of listening with sort of a craft mindset is that when youhave characters that only make good choices for themselves, you're really limiting the
amount of conflict you can put into a story.
And I do know that there is, you know, there is a growing sort of space for low conflictstories.
(57:56):
And I think that's great.
I think that's soothing for a lot of people.
For me, I actually find that my, so I have OCD, I have ADHD, I have a lot of, I have allthe alphabet letters as well, but for me, my anxiety actually is soothed by catharsis.
(58:16):
And so extreme stories with extreme characters, and then when it reaches that moment ofresolution, I feel that catharsis.
And so for me, it's actually soothing to read things like that.
you know, dark romance or taboo romance, very intense stories that is helped.
That's like, that's a service to me as well.
(58:36):
That's like medicinal for me.
And so when you are creating characters who only make good choices, you are creatingstories where you're kind of limiting the amount of conflict you can put in, right.
And I think that that's some of that comes from an impulse of like, well, we don't wantto, I don't know, glamorize bad characters.
But
(58:57):
When you have characters who are morally gray or they're anti-heroes or they're villains,they just leave bad choices all over the place, like crumbs, you know?
Like they are like, like the Charlie Brown, who's the kid with the blanket who's alwaysgot the like dirt around him.
Yeah, like those are anti-heroes and bad choices.
(59:19):
Like they are just carrying bad choices with them wherever they go.
And you don't...
You don't have to justify it.
You don't have to say, you know, like, you don't have to create sort of elaborate excusesfor why a good person would make a bad decision because this person's already bad.
So of course their choices are going to be, you know, not great.
(59:39):
And so it creates so much conflict in your story when you have a villain because they areonly operating on what they want.
They don't care about anyone else.
And so their story is a journey to caring about someone else getting to that point.
Yes.
And so it's just, it makes it so easy to write a tense story when you already havecharacters who don't give a shit about making good decisions.
(01:00:04):
I'm gonna go.
Yeah, and I also like the corrupting of the innocent, for some reason.
You know, I just, whatever.
I don't think there has to be a pathology to it.
Like, I mean, I've seen people pathologize that and say, you know, it's because of the wayour culture has structured sex or the way our culture has structured gender and our
(01:00:26):
culture has structured power.
I think all of that is probably true in the background, but I also think like, we can onlywrite in the environment that we're in now.
And so that's, you know, if that's a story that helps us make sense of the environmentthat
that helps us make sense of the environment that we use, and we sort of like we have thedarkest of our hours, then like it's good, it's a good story to tell.
(01:00:50):
Yes, well oh my goodness this has been an amazing hour to sit and chat with you about oneof our favorite series,
We really appreciate you so much for coming on.
I know I said we're gonna put your website and everything in the description of this, butif you wanna go ahead and just give those out now as well, that would be great.
Yeah, so you can find me, my website is thesierracimone.com.
(01:01:14):
That's pretty much the most comprehensive index of new releases.
And then also I have all of my books and the reading order listed there.
You can also find me on Instagram at thesierracimone.
I am not online a whole lot.
I'm kind of an internet introvert.
And so I live like a hermit, but I do send out a monthly newsletter and I get more chattyin my newsletter.
(01:01:38):
So you can subscribe to my newsletter from my website as well.
And that is also a great place if you're looking for new releases or books on sale.
And then every newsletter I give away two or three free romance books.
So if you like freebies too, it's a good place to go.
She has a great newsletter, you guys.
I get it and I just, and I love it.
(01:01:59):
So, but yes.
So thank you for joining us on our inaugural Author Spotlight podcast.
is the virgin one and we know how you Yeah I don't I mean there's not very many firstsleft in this life.
So i'm like i'm honored that I got to be part of this one The last one Well, thank youguys so much for having me I really appreciate it
(01:02:30):
Okay.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
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