Megan Heaton, founder of the VBAC Link, shares her personal journey of having two cesarean sections and her desire for a vaginal birth after cesarean (VBAC). She emphasizes the importance of education and finding a supportive provider when considering a VBAC. Megan also discusses the misconceptions and risks associated with VBAC, as well as the need for a backup plan when planning an out-of-hospital birth. Her story highlights the empowerment and healing that can come from advocating for one's birth preferences. In this conversation, Meagan shares her personal experience with VBAC (Vaginal Birth After Cesarean) and provides valuable insights and tips for women considering a VBAC. She emphasizes the importance of acceptance, gratitude, and education when preparing for a VBAC. Meagan discusses the role of the pelvis in labor and the impact of baby positioning on the birthing process. She also highlights the significance of chiropractic care and proper positioning techniques to optimize the chances of a successful VBAC. Meagan encourages women to ask questions and advocate for themselves during labor, and she offers strategies for staying positive and mentally prepared throughout the process.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction and Megan's Background 03:10 Megan's First Cesarean Section Experience 05:23 Megan's Second Cesarean Section Experience 09:36 Finding a Supportive Provider for VBAC 13:26 Diving Deep into VBAC Education 15:52 The Importance of Op Reports in VBAC Planning 21:39 Megan's Successful VBAC Experience 23:45 Overcoming Doubts and Embracing Empowerment 26:23 The Role of the Pelvis in Labor and the Impact of Baby Positioning 35:17 Advocating for Yourself: Asking Questions During Labor 43:47 Staying Positive and Mentally Prepared for a VBAC
RESOURCES BOOK - The VBAC Companion by Diana Korte Book Quote - “The journey to a VBAC is not just physical; it is deeply emotional and spiritual. It’s about healing, reclaiming, and moving forward with strength and courage.”
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
It's the Best Birth Podcast, wherewe interview experts that elevate
you as you prepare your heartand mind to have the best birth.
Each episode will interviewprofessionals so you are prepared
for pregnancy, birth, and postpartum.
Our experts will build your confidenceand empower you to trust your
intuition throughout your pregnancy.
This audio is takenfrom videos on YouTube.
(00:27):
Watch the entire episodes onYouTube at Birth Made Mindful.
Jen & Sarah [00:00]
Welcome to The Best Birth, apodcast where we invite experts
to help elevate your birth.
Today on our show, we have Megan Heaton.
Megan is a VBAC after two cesareans mom.
She's also a birth doula and educatorand the founder of the VBAC link.
(00:48):
Meagan [00:19]
Hello everybody!
Thank you so much for having me!
Jen & Sarah [00:23]
Thank you so much for joining our show.
Yes, and I am so excited to learnfrom you and your expertise.
The VBAC link is the numberone resource in VBAC education.
And I understand that you have apodcast with over 300 episodes and a
flourishing community for mamas preparingfor vaginal births after cesareans.
(01:13):
So we'd love to just dive right in andhear a little bit of your story and what
brought you to creating the VBAC link.
Meagan [00:47]
Yes, well thank you again for having me.
I love talking about VBAC.
Clearly I talk about it every week on mypodcast and I'm just really passionate
because I've been through it, right?
And so yeah, let me tell you moreabout my story, which is kind of
(01:36):
really where the VBAC link began.
So like you said, I havehad two C -sections.
With my first baby, I was young.
I got pregnant and I downloadedlike what to expect or
something like that on my phone.
And I kind of just let that app bemy education and be, you know, the
(02:02):
leading thing for me to understandwhat was happening not only to my
body, but to my baby, what sizemy baby was, what I was going to
be experiencing, all those things.
And I always was shocked when I wasn'texperiencing everything on the app.
Cause I'm like, wait, isn't thissupposed to be telling me what
I'm supposed to be experiencing?
(02:22):
Just going to give you some tip right now.
Don't only go off of an app for childbirtheducation or your pregnancy education.
It's just not, it's just not great.
It's, it's fine, but it's not great.
Jen & Sarah [02:08]
and there can never be enough education.
Meagan [02:10]
there really can't be enough education.
(02:43):
And that's the hardest part that Ihad to kind of learn is I thought I
had all the education I needed rightthere in my little app because it
was telling me everything, right?
And then there was a forum in the app.
So that was cool.
I was kind of seeing peopleand relating to people.
(03:03):
So yeah, so I kind of justwent off of that and...
I found myself at 39 weeks,5 days, and my water broke.
And I was super excited!
I mean, who's not excitedwhen that water breaks?
Because that is a sure signthat your baby is coming, right?
But I didn't really havea lot of things happening.
(03:25):
Like, I was kind of cramping every timeI would get a contraction that I didn't
even really realize was a contraction.
You know, I'd get a littlebit more leakage, but...
That was about all I experiencedafter my water broke.
But what I was told is if your waterbreaks, you go straight to the hospital.
And now I know better,but that's what I did.
(03:49):
I went right to the hospital.
Super excited.
We got our bags.
We went in and I was like, maybe aone, like maybe like a half centimeter.
And they were just like,okay, here's your room.
And they just like put us in this room.
And I remember it was kind of like hangingout, like thinking, okay, what's going on?
(04:12):
What do we do?
And so I just sat in the bed andthings did start to kind of pick up.
And within time they came in and theywanted to do another cervical exam
and I hadn't progressed super far.
And again, hours and hours went by,finally checked again and I was,
I was three centimeters, which...
seemed like really great progress.
I went in, I say it was around midnight,my water broke around midnight and then
(04:38):
we went in around one or so and it waslike noon and I was three centimeters and
starting to finally feel contractions andthey were like, nah, this isn't happening.
This isn't good.
And I was like, wait, what?
So they put me on Pitocin and they werelike, we have to get this labor going.
So I started Pitocin and
(05:00):
my gosh, I was not prepared for that.
That little app did notprepare me for Pitocin.
Pitocin is definitely, you know, it's asynthetic hormone that gets pumped into
our body to help our uterus contract.
And that's exactly what it did.
So I started contracting strongerand I just wasn't prepared.
I didn't know how to breathe.
I didn't know how to cope.
(05:21):
My husband didn't know anything.
He definitely wasn't readingmy What to Expect app.
And so I found myself clinging to the bedtelling him, do something, do something.
So I ended up getting an epidural.
And I just, I wasn't dilating.
And my doctor just said,this isn't happening.
(05:42):
I think that we need to have a C -section.
And I just said,
and that's not what I wanted, Iactually had talked to him about
c -section in my prenatal just alittle bit because my mom had had a
c -section with me, coincidentallyenough with the same provider.
So my provider was the guy whohelped my mom, helped me get here.
(06:06):
So anyway, I just didn't knowwhat else to do and my husband
was like, we gotta do this.
Like, if this is whatthey say, we gotta do it.
So I said okay, so they unhookedmy bed and wheeled my bed down
to the OR and I had a c -section.
And you know, it wasn't necessarilya bad experience on my podcast.
(06:29):
I definitely hear some trauma storiesin regards to c -section and mine
fortunately wasn't necessarilytraumatic, but it wasn't what I wanted.
You know, I didn't necessarily want that.
So...
Jen & Sarah [05:53]
Mm.
Meagan [06:14]
Anyway, I went in and did recovery andstarted already thinking about what
(06:51):
I wanted to do for baby number two.
And so I did, I just started, you know,like kind of researching and learned
about a doula, but I wasn't even pregnant,so I just kind of was like, okay, cool.
No, I actually didn'tlearn about a doula yet.
I learned about VBAC,that's what I learned about.
Just like the VBAC was an option.
And I was like, cool, well I'm notpregnant, so we'll figure it out.
(07:14):
later so then I started thinking okayI want to get pregnant so I talked to
my OB and said hey I want to be backwhen I get pregnant he's like yeah cool
no problem so I got pregnant and I waswith my OB and he was super supportive
saying he was he's like yeah that'sno problem and I was like cool if you
(07:34):
support VBAC that's a thumbs up for meand so then I started digging more and
found out about a dual late in pregnancy
I remember, my gosh, we were at arestaurant and I told my husband I
want a doula and he got like irate.
He was like, no, you arenot gonna replace me.
And I was like, no, no, no, it's notlike that, which is a very common myth
(07:57):
of doulas is them being, you know,replacing our partner and our loved ones.
And that's not the case, but hejust wasn't super sure about that.
So he went out of town at 38 weeks.
Jen & Sarah [07:17]
Cool.
Meagan [07:39]
like four days or somethinglike that and he went out of
town for work and guess what?
My water broke.
(08:18):
Again.
So I was kind of okay with it though.
I was like, that's fine.
It'll be fine.
My husband won't make it back.
I'm planning on laboring a homeas long as possible anyway.
I'm not rushing to theproviders this time.
And so anyway, he got home and he waslike, why aren't you at the hospital?
Your water broke hours ago.
I'm like, I'm fine.
(08:38):
I'm like barely contracting and he'slike no we gotta go and my mom was like
you gotta go So I ended up just sayingokay, so we went to the hospital and
again not really dilated But it reallywasn't contracting so that's something
a big key that I just want to mentionlike if your body is not Contracting
we cannot expect to be dilated We justcan't right like and you could be dilated
(09:03):
a little bit before labor We know thatbut like we're not gonna be like dilated
Jen & Sarah [08:29]
Mmm.
Meagan [08:37]
really far.
Like we're not going to be having a baby.
So if I'm not contracting, Ishouldn't be worried about having
a baby in the car or somethingbecause I'm not even contracting.
So anyway, my body doesn'tdilate before labor.
Like a lot of people's kind of, youknow, one to four centimeters people
(09:24):
can kind of dilate and start softening.
So I went in and they'relike, you're maybe a one.
I was like, awesome.
Great.
Here we are.
And my nurse was amazing.
She was also a doula.
And so she was like helping me.
When I did have contractions, Iwould have them in my back, which
was a sign that, you know, my babywas maybe not positioned very well.
(09:47):
And my husband was exhausted.
He like crashed.
He's like, I made it.
And like fell asleep in thelittle chair in the corner.
And so her and I just kind ofchatted and did labor a little bit.
And...
Jen & Sarah [09:06]
Mmm.
Meagan [09:31]
Yeah, I just didn't really dilate.
I was begging for Pitocin.
I was like, can I have Pitocin?
Can I do something to help this labor?
(10:07):
Cause they were kind of saying like, ifthis doesn't happen, then it's going to
need to be a repeat C -section, right?
And so she asked and myprovider said no to Pitocin,
said it was a contraindication,which we'll talk about later.
and yeah, just kind of let me hang.
I just didn't do much.
(10:28):
And shift change happened at 7am, youknow, as it does often in hospitals.
And my amazing nurse went awayand an amazing nurse came in
but wasn't the nurse I needed.
She was like, alright, let'sjust have a C -section.
Provider wants a C -section.
He came in.
He was kind of negative.
Kind of said like, your bodydoesn't know how to do this.
(10:49):
It can't do this.
You just need a sectionis what he kept saying.
And I was like, I don't want that.
Can you just give me an hour?
And I never felt acontraction again after that.
My body went into like freeze modewhere everything just stopped.
So I walked around for an hour trying toget labor to go and it just didn't go.
(11:11):
And finally my husband waslike, can we just have a baby?
You know, and he was kind ofputting some fear into my husband.
He was kind of saying some scary things.
And so anyway, I walked downand I had a repeat C -section.
Jen & Sarah [10:43]
Hmm.
Meagan [10:56]
And honestly, that birthwas so healing in a way.
(11:32):
It was not the birth I wanted, right?
I really wanted a vaginal birth, but Igot to be included in that birth so much.
I got to watch my C -section, which Iknow isn't for everybody, but that was
like really healing for me to really beincluded in what was happening and see
in the mirror my baby coming up, right?
(11:53):
So it was really good.
It was good.
Jen & Sarah [11:07]
you
Yeah.
Meagan [11:25]
Like overall, I feel...
I've really felt at peace with my birth.
I was really grateful for my husband forremembering some of those things, like
wanting to watch it and wanting to be partof it and having music and having just
a better experience than just like beingin a bright room with beeping, you know?
(12:16):
And so anyway, so I had her and I wasin the recovery room, the post -op room.
Jen & Sarah [11:27]
Thank you.
Hmm.
Meagan [11:54]
and I started, I was breastfeedingher and just like smitten over
this little baby and startedGoogling how to become a doula.
My priorities may not havebeen in the right place.
(12:36):
I may have been a littledistracted over here, but I did.
I started Googling how tobecome a doula and everything
inside of me just lit on fire.
And I was like, one, I'm goingto become a doula and two,
I'm going to be back one day.
I'm going to do this.
Jen & Sarah [12:05]
Bye.
Meagan [12:21]
So I decided to become a doulabefore I even left the hospital.
I registered for my course andthen enjoyed my little newborn
(13:00):
and started my journey right away.
Right away.
And I wasn't expecting that.
Sometimes I have alittle bit of mom guilt.
You know how we get mom guilt sometimeswhere I'm like, man, I should have
probably spent more time with mynewborn than like being distracted
about a baby that wasn't even born yet.
(13:21):
Jen & Sarah [12:27]
Hello.
Meagan [12:51]
or supporting people thatI didn't even know yet.
But
I don't know, it's justwhere my mind went.
I just, I think maybe too itwas a little bit of processing.
You know, the birth that I didn't get.
So anyway, years laterI was already a doula.
I was loving it.
(13:42):
It was so fun.
VBAC was definitely like a big thingfor me and I just wanted to learn more.
So not only did I want to learn more,
for my clients, right?
I wanted to learn more for me too.
And so I just dove head first,started learning all the things
about VBAC, the risks, the facts,really what does it look like?
(14:05):
Does that big rupture word,that they say really have like
a really high rate or is it low?
You know, what are we doing?
Anyway, and what I learnedis a lot of positive things
actually that VBAC is very safe
Jen & Sarah [13:48]
Hmm.
Meagan [13:49]
and reasonable that yes, uterinerupture, although that word is very,
(14:25):
very big and scary, the chances arepretty dang low, like pretty dang low.
And I never want to discredit anythingor anyone that has had a uterine rupture.
I mean, I think that's really importantto know is like they do happen.
And when they do happen,they are emergent.
When, when they do happen, it'svery rare that it's catastrophic.
(14:49):
but they happen and I don't want tomake it sound like it's so low that
they don't happen because they do.
But with the low, with the rate beingas low as it was, I felt very confident
in trying again and going for it.
So I interviewed a ridiculous amount ofproviders, maybe 12 might be my number,
(15:13):
which might sound crazy, but I really,really, really wanted to find a provider.
Jen & Sarah [14:18]
Thank you.
Meagan [14:47]
that would support, truly support.
And that I think is a big key when itcomes to VBAC and wanting a VBAC is you
have to find a provider that supports you.
And there's a difference betweensomeone who is like, my first
(15:35):
one, yeah, no problem, you can doit, to actually being supportive.
Right?
And so I wanted to find someone who,
Jen & Sarah [15:10]
Mm.
Meagan [15:16]
would tell me both the risks of C-section, repeat C -section and V BAC.
Because when we're talking V -BAC,people only focus on V BAC They
(15:56):
don't talk about the risks of repeatC -section, which there are many.
And we just don't talk about them, right?
It's like, it's fine.
But V -BAC is scary.
And so I wanted someone to really giveme both because I wanted to know both my
risks of both outcomes, knowing that V-back could also lead to a C -section.
Jen & Sarah [15:30]
Thank you.
(16:17):
Meagan [15:46]
I wanted to know that risk if Igo in for a scheduled c -section
versus a VBAC or a TOLAC, right?
Going into a c -section.
So, I didn't want a yes or no answer.
I wanted to know how they felt about VBAC.
How do you feel about VBAC?
So if you are listening and you areinterested in a VBAC, that is something
I highly suggest you ask your provider.
(16:39):
How they feel about VBAC.
You're going to know within abouta split two seconds how they feel
and if they're really supportive.
Jen & Sarah [16:04]
you
Meagan [16:15]
If they're like, my gosh, I loveVBAC, it's so great, this is what's
going on, these are the pros,these are the cons, and they're
breaking it down, that's great.
If they're like, it's fine, you cando it, but you have to go into labor
(17:02):
spontaneously, you can't go past40 weeks, if your water breaks, you
have to come right in and be on amonitor, all of these restrictions,
those are not so supportive answers.
Jen & Sarah [16:41]
Hmm.
Meagan [16:45]
right, if they have a bunchof restrictions on you.
So I did find a lot of those providersthat put a lot of restrictions.
(17:22):
And then I had some that I was like,okay, I could see you being supportive,
but I'm gonna kind of like keep going.
And so I finally found aprovider who was awesome.
And at the time here in Utah,he was like the VBAC king.
Like he was the one to support VBAC.
And so I was like, done, I'mgoing to you, you are great.
(17:44):
And I did I started careand he was wonderful.
Absolutely wonderful But I attended an out-of -hospital birth at like 20 probably 20
weeks or so it was Christmas Eve actuallyand this midwife just blew me away just
blew me away, and I was still a newerdoula so I hadn't seen a ton of out -of
(18:08):
-hospital births at that at that point andYeah, I just said after the birth I said
Jen & Sarah [17:28]
Mm -hmm.
Meagan [17:43]
Can I come see you after the holidays?
Like I would love to discussmy birth plans with you.
She was like, yeah, no problem.
So I went in and decidedto switch at 24 weeks care.
And I actually did some dual care.
(18:30):
I don't know, have you guysever heard of dual care?
Jen & Sarah [17:51]
sure.
and
Yes.
So you see your physician or yourOBGYN and then you also see your
midwife to plan to deliver at aplace other than your hospital.
Meagan [18:11]
Exactly, so I did dual care and for alittle bit and I think that just I don't
know it just kind of helped my heartfeel like I was do it was okay like I
(18:53):
had a backup plan right which I actuallythink no matter what especially if
you're giving birth out of the hospitaland be backing or not even be backing.
You should have a backup plan.
I think that's important Soyeah, so I started care with
her and it was just amazing andI felt so supportive and then I
As a doula, I had a couple doulasthat were like, hey, I want to
(19:14):
be at your birth really bad.
So I had, you know, I started reallygetting this team in this village
surrounding me and building me up.
And unfortunately I didn't have a lotof support from family members with,
with the idea to be back in generaland then two for sure out of hospital.
So I, I like kind of toyedwith it and just like said some
(19:38):
things about out of hospital.
And I had one person like,
You can't do that.
And I was like, okay, Iwill not be sharing my plan.
So I kind of kept my planto myself and my team.
And I think that's okay to protectyour space if you have, you know,
some maybe outside negativitycoming in or lack of support.
(19:59):
And I want to note, I want tonote too, because my family, it's
not that they didn't support me,it's that they were uneducated.
They didn't know.
Right?
And so they weren't badfor not supporting me.
They just didn't know the facts.
They only heard the scarystuff that they heard.
And so I don't judge them forever notsupporting me or anything like that.
(20:23):
It's usually the casewith a lot of people.
They just don't know what they don't know.
So anyway, yeah, fast forward.
My water breaks again.
Go me.
They say 10 % of people havetheir water break, but I...
three for three.
So my water broke and labordefinitely took its time.
(20:43):
Really took its time.
We had a posterior situationagain where my baby was in my, you
know, in my back looking forward.
So baby's head against my back.
And so we had to work really hardto do that with motions and movement
and resting and all the things.
(21:04):
But we ended up...
42 hours later, I'm on a squat stool andon a bathroom floor, which sounds kind of
crazy, but I was on a stool with everyonesurrounded around me, my husband holding
me behind me, my midwife in front of me,my doulas on the side of me, and I in two
(21:25):
pushes, two sets of pushes, I should say,pushed my little guy out after being told
I would never get a baby out of my pelvis.
Right?
And that my body didn'tknow how to dilate.
I was told those two things and notonly told them, it was put on my
op report that my pelvis was toosmall to physically get a baby out.
(21:46):
And so yeah, so it had me be back andit was just the most amazing feeling.
And there wasn't a dry eye in the room.
We were all crying a lotof the doula community was
following my story because I was
Jen & Sarah [21:13]
Yeah.
Meagan [21:28]
I was pretty vocal in thecommunity because I felt very
supported in that community.
And this amazing woman, JulieFrancom, she called me one day
(22:11):
out of the blue and said, hey, Iwant to start a company with you.
I want to call it Utah VBAC Link.
And I was like, huh, that sounds cool.
Let's, yeah, let's do it.
And I did make her wait a little bit.
I had to think about it.
Jen & Sarah [21:39]
Thank you.
Meagan [21:56]
But we did it and that'swhere the VBAC link started.
So it actually started as Utah VBAC link.
(22:33):
And as we started, we found thatthere was such a bigger need.
There was such a biggerneed outside of Utah.
So then the VBAC link was born andwe started a podcast, an education
course and love talking VBAC.
Jen & Sarah [22:03]
Hmm.
Megan, our hearts are exploding.
(22:55):
Yes, to hear that, I have been told somany times that your pelvis is too small.
And so I have just been in the modeof accepting cesarean and never
really considered that that was anoption because of what I've been told.
So I love that you were toldsomething and then you questioned
it and you sought more education.
That's incredible.
Meagan [22:23]
Hahaha!
Yeah, and you know, I want totell you, you are not alone, love.
(23:17):
Like, I mean, with a cesarean rate at32 .1 % just a couple years ago, think
about how many of us have been told ourpelvis is too small, your body doesn't
know how to do it, you know, your babiesare just too big, you just make too
big of babies, things like that, right?
Like we were told that, and whenwe are told that by a medical
(23:39):
professional who did years of schooling,
We can't blame ourselvesfor believing that.
We can't.
Right?
Like, I'm not a professional.
So, yeah.
Jen & Sarah [23:22]
Tell us what were some of the thingsthat you did to prepare for your VBAC?
So you felt that confidence becauseyou were receiving a message that
(24:03):
might have diminished your confidence.
Meagan [23:34]
such a good question.
And let me tell you, even afterpreparing, I might've had a little
trigger during labor, actually.
I triggered back a little bitand started doubting myself.
So one, I got my op reports.
That is a really big first step for anyonewho has had a cesarean or cesareans who
(24:27):
may want to explore the option of VBAC.
That is a really big thing becausewe are often told one thing,
and in our op reports, documented another.
Which is kind of weird to think aboutwhy we would be told something and
documented another, but it does happen.
And so we want to know reallywhat happened in that cesarean.
(24:49):
What are the reasons that they'resaying these cesareans happened, right?
Was it a fetal heart drop?
Was it our pelvis?
Was it something else, right?
So getting my op reports, that isthe first thing I did to prepare.
and I went through them.
Now at that point I was a doula andso I had a better knowledge of what
(25:11):
the terms went and things like that.
But that's something wedo at the VBAC link too.
We help people go through thoseop reports and understand what
is being said and what was done.
So understanding what they said.
I think that's a really,really big first key.
And then I think acceptance.
I had to accept.
(25:32):
I had to accept that those...
happened.
Those C -sections happened.
And I think that through thatacceptance I actually found gratitude
and being really grateful for my body.
A lot of people when they doubttheir body they think negatively.
My body wasn't strong enough.
(25:52):
My body didn't do it.
My body wasn't you know createdcorrectly or whatever grew
correctly to do this like...
It's really hard what we can do, I thinkas women in general, but when we're told
these things by our providers, it's hard
to put those things in our minds.
So, acceptance, be grateful foryour body, and then start educating.
(26:18):
So, I started educating andreally learning about those
risks and learning about what thesigns were of uterine rupture.
and you know the wrists of caesarian and
learning just learning more also aboutmy body and what the pelvis actually
(26:38):
does in labor now you guys our pelvisesare incredible i actually have a pelvis
right here i just want to show you
Jen & Sarah [26:16]
this is perfect.
I'm so glad that you have a demonstration.
Meagan [26:18]
I do!
I mean and this is like I have a littleguy right here so this one doesn't move
as much but look at this amazing likebone structure that we have in our bodies.
(27:01):
It does so much for us right?
We sit, we lay, we stand, werun, we jump, all the things.
Guess what?
It also births babies really well but ifwe have any weird abnormally so my pelvis
specifically don't know why just does it.
But my pelvis, I'm going to turnit this way so you can kind of see.
My pelvis does this.
(27:23):
Sorry, this.
My left hip goes forward.
Can you kind of see that hole?
OK, so my left goes forward all the time.
And my right sits back.
And then my sacrum, can yousee what happens to my sacrum?
It tucks under and twists.
(27:43):
Jen & Sarah [26:58]
Yeah.
Tuck's under.
Meagan [27:13]
So when we are trying to get a babyout, I'm gonna use my little one here.
We're trying to get a baby out of thislittle space and we have twisted things.
Look what that space does, itmakes us so much smaller, right?
So we can't get a baby out aswell when our pelvis is wonky like
(28:04):
this because our babies have tocome down and rotate to come out.
And so when everything's tuckedin wrong, it just makes it hard.
So I started chiropractic care.
I was a little weary of chiropractors.
I was like, they're quacks.
That's what I said.
I was like, they're a little quacky,but through my research of things
(28:27):
to do with feedback, I reallyfound a benefit of chiropractors.
So I started with chiropractorand sure enough, he said, your
left goes forward, your back goesback, your sacrum's all twisted.
We gotta keep on this.
And when we're pregnant, we make extrarelaxant hormones and so our pelvis can
get out of whack a little, little easier.
(28:49):
Then it can make it so the babycan come down a little wonky.
And when the floodgates openlike my births, we just, babies
just come and they can come downin all wonky positions, right?
So that's another thing I learned.
I'm more about positioning of babies.
what the signs were that a baby was in alack, you know, lack of term of, I should
(29:12):
say, poor, poor, a poor position, okay?
And what to do.
So as soon as with my water brokewith my third, when my, when all
my contractions were in my back,I knew, my gosh, he's posterior.
And then I also learned, my gosh,Lila, my second was posterior too.
(29:34):
so one, I didn't have time toget into labor with that one.
I just wasn't given the time,but two, she needed work to
help get on the cervix, right?
Cause if our baby's heads are not pressingon the cervix correctly, that's hard.
So look, here's another thing.
You can see that big part of thehead, small part of the head.
If our baby's head, if our baby's headsright here on the cervix, can you see how
(29:56):
less pressure is being put on our cervix?
Because there's less head, right?
So positioning, that's another thing Ilearned to prep and then really mentally
and physically so I was eating better.
I was staying hydrated.
I was trying to work out andwalk and stay physically fit.
I was really trying to focus on mynutrients, making sure that I was
(30:20):
giving my body and my baby the thingsthat it needed to grow a healthy baby.
So those were all the things I neededto prep as well and then finding that do
-finding those doulas, finding that provider, those were all really,
really key factors in my prep as well.
Jen & Sarah [30:07]
And I remember learning cause Ihave a very similar story to you.
(30:41):
Although I only had one cesareanbefore my VBAC, my second baby, but
both births were actually posterior.
And so for my second birth, weactually went to the chiropractor
an hour before he was born.
And that was 28 hours into my labor.
And so I feel like a chiropractor isthe reason that I was able to have
(31:02):
that VBAC because he was able to open.
my hips and my pelvis in a waythat could rotate the baby.
But I do want to go backto the malpositioning.
So if a baby is in the wrong position, howdo you get the baby in the right position?
Meagan [30:38]
yeah.
Yes, such a good question.
And I'm also going to even go alittle bit back to what we were
(31:23):
talking with the pelvis is too small.
Usually when our pelvis isdocumented too small or CP,
it's actually a baby's position.
And it's more that the babycouldn't fit through in a wonky
position, then we just needed work.
So what we do is one, wetune into what's happening.
(31:43):
Where's our contractions?
So as a doula, I'm paying attention to,
Where those are, are they all on our back?
Are they all up front?
Can we sit down comfortably during, andcomfortably during a contraction, right?
but can we sit down or when we sitdown, are we like forced to crawl
to our knees because it's so muchpressure in that pubic area, right?
(32:06):
Or is it going down one sideof the leg or are we coupling?
So a coupling contraction is where we havetwo really, really close contractions.
that were like decent, but maybenot like didn't floor us, right?
And then we have a break.
(32:27):
Like it's pretty solid break.
And then we have the strongestcontraction where we're like,
my gosh, this baby's coming.
And it takes us out of our focus.
And it took everything wehad to get through that.
And then all of a sudden we havetwo little ones again, and then
a break, and then a strong one.
So that's our uterus.
It's brilliant.
It's absolutely brilliant.
Our bodies are brilliant.
(32:48):
And that's, are you justtrying to move a baby?
So if we're having that couplingpattern, that's telling me
we've got to do some work.
So a lot of the times it's positioning.
So if we're having all of it in our back,we're going to do forward leaning things.
Or if we're getting it more in onepelvis, we're going to maybe do
some asymmetrical movements and tryto find the balance in our pelvis.
(33:10):
Maybe we're rotating thesein if our baby's really low.
but we're still kind of feeling like maybebaby's asyncletic or something like that.
And asyncletics like wherethey're tilted like this.
So we might rotate our knees in orout or even do both of them, right?
So we're gonna be.
Jen & Sarah [32:55]
Do we keep that positionfor multiple contractions or
do we change with each one?
(33:31):
Meagan [33:01]
So good question.
I actually like to keep it for threeto five contractions before we shift.
And the shift doesn't need to be dramatic.
It doesn't need to be, we're standingup and our knees are all over the
place, you know, and then all of asudden we're laying down and we're
doing the, I mean, it can be subtle.
It can be like we're leaning over thebed and we're, you know, we're swaying
(33:52):
our hips and then we get a tiny littlestool and we're still leaning over the
bed, but now our foot's on a stool.
So now we're in that asymmetric,you know, we're asymmetrical.
or maybe we're rotating a knee inor maybe we're rotating a knee out
standing up or if we're laying downwe don't have to like drive all the
way over to the other side, you know?
(34:13):
We can just switch our pelvis up alittle bit right there because even
just a little, here's my pelvisagain, just a little bit of movement.
So here maybe our kneesare, you know, vertical.
What is that?
What's the, what's the direction?
Straight.
We're straight.
And then now we tilt the onepelvis up or one knee up.
(34:36):
So then we're makingthe inlet bigger, right?
So we're allowing that space over here.
So just little movementsis what we need to do.
So every three to five, move if you can.
Now, if it is absolutely nottolerable to stay in that position,
listen to your body, move, right?
(34:57):
Listen to your body.
Jen & Sarah [34:29]
I think this is a great marriagebetween showing how science has advanced
and we've had other interventionsthat we've been able to use.
But on the other hand, can we evenit out with education and changing
the positions and figuring out howto labor and all of those things?
I feel like that's kind of what's beenmissing as we've advanced in science.
(35:20):
Meagan [34:49]
yeah, yeah.
You know, we for, I think in a lot ofways we've forgotten about these things,
like movement and position, and we're notpaying attention to those as much as in
like, well, the baby hasn't come at thistime, so it's time to go for a C -section.
Your pelvis must be too small.
Jen & Sarah [35:09]
And what are some of the questionsthat we can ask to our providers
(35:44):
during labor when it's presented thatwe might need to have the C -section?
Meagan [35:19]
Okay, yeah, so and one, I thinkthe very first question is, is why?
Why is the reason you are, what's thereason you are suggesting a C -section?
Is my baby doing okay?
Is everything okay with the baby?
(36:04):
If they say, yeah, baby's doing okay.
Okay, am I doing okay?
Are my baby or I at risk,serious risk right now?
If they say yes.
then we have some things to talk about.
If they say no, okay, we're okay.
So what's the reason?
Okay, well, your water has been brokenfor 18 hours, we'll say, and you're
(36:30):
only five centimeters and you've beenfive centimeters for three hours.
Okay, so it's a progression issue.
All right, what are the thingswe can do before going to
the C -section route, right?
And ask.
Have I only not dilated?
Is that the only thingthat I haven't done?
Like have I effaced?
(36:51):
Has my baby come down lower?
You know, what are, have thereother changes been being made?
Cause if that's the case, there'sreally no evidence on that.
Like if we're making change and everyone'sdoing okay, we can keep going, right?
So kind of asking thosequestions, are we safe?
Are we okay?
Why?
If it's just a progression issue,what other things can we do?
(37:14):
before we go that route.
Can we start introducing Pitocin?
Can we get up and movein a different position?
And you know, really kind of ask thosequestions that they need to answer
to you, because it's called consent.
So they need to be really tellingyou what's going on with your
body, and before they just say,you have to have a C -section.
(37:37):
So asking those questions,what's going on?
Are we safe?
What can we do?
And then you can also say like, well, inthis situation, what have you seen help?
Right?
And if they just say, a C -section.
Well, I don't know ifthat's necessarily fact.
(37:57):
I mean, maybe that's howthey're caring, right?
And we're realizing that thisprovider may not be as supportive
for VBAC as we thought.
But maybe they can say, do you know whatI found is that we turned Pitocin off.
give your body a break, let youruterine receptors clear out of
pitocin and start over gradually orcut it in half and let your body get
(38:18):
a break and then start progressingthat way or something like that.
Like, okay, let's reallytalk about options.
Cause if mom and baby are okay, thereare typically other things we can do
before going the Caesarian route, right?
Jen & Sarah [38:02]
And what is the rate of cervicalchange that's required before we might
(38:38):
understand that there is a problem orsome sort of stalling with contractions?
Meagan [38:14]
Well, you know, the biggest thingis if there is zero, if our water is
broken, there is zero change and it'sbeen like six to 12 hours, then we
need to be talking about something.
Something needs to happen, right?
(38:59):
So they can say, at that pointthey can say failure to progress or
failure to descend because there'snot really anything happening.
But like I was saying earlier,if you maybe haven't dilated
in four hours, which is...
normal, especially at 4 or 5 centimeters,you're not even in active labor yet,
but you went from 30 % of face to80 % of face, that's significant change.
(39:24):
Your body's just been notdilating, but it's been working
and softening and thinning.
Another question too is asked tohow far the cervix has come forward.
So a lot of the times in early labor,it's posterior and it will come
forward in a line with the birth canal.
So you can talk to them about that.
So if they're saying there has not beenany change, make sure to talk about that.
(39:44):
change right like in a whole not justthat one number one to ten or zero to ten.
So yeah so they can they can diagnoseit as failure to progress you know after
that six to twelve hour mark usuallyaround six hours if at you know water's
broken six centimeters or six hours andyour body has gone into the active phase
(40:10):
of later meaning six centimeters ormore then they're they're probably gonna
discuss things.
Jen & Sarah [39:45]
And one thing as I was studying formy VBAC, that was really apparent.
It takes our bodies a lot oftime to get into active labor.
And so if your water breaks and youhead straight to the hospital and then
they put you on a clock, you're kindof doomed because our bodies take a
(40:33):
lot of time for active labor to happen.
So in my experience, my chart saysthat I have failure to progress, but
I only dilated to two centimeters.
I never got beyond that.
Meagan [39:54]
Yes.
Jen & Sarah [40:14]
So I felt like that was kind ofa mistake on my chart because
I was never in active labor.
My baby was sunny side up.
He was in the wrong position.
(40:53):
And maybe if we had found out that he wasin the wrong position on day one of my
labor, instead of day two of my labor,there would have been more time to do
the positioning, to shift him and thenstill have a chance for vaginal delivery.
Meagan [40:21]
Yeah.
Jen & Sarah [40:37]
and so in my other labors, that wassomething I noticed is I felt like I
was in labor for a long time and I wouldstart tracking, you know, and then I would
(41:16):
think, okay, it's only been three hoursof contractions and now they're gone.
And every day I remember waking up andthinking like, I'm still contracting.
Why am I not in labor?
Like, why hasn't my baby come yet?
And it was that realization thatit takes our bodies a lot of
time to get into active labor.
Meagan [40:45]
yeah.
Thank you.
Jen & Sarah [41:04]
But then once active labor is presentfor, for me, it did not take a long time
(41:40):
once my baby was in the right position.
And that was for my third labor,my entire labor, I think was five
hours from the time that I felt like,okay, these contractions are real.
And then delivering that baby.
Meagan [41:11]
Bye.
Yeah!
Yeah, and that's such a good, goodthing to talk about because I think
sometimes when we're looking at lengthin a hole, it's defeating because
(42:01):
we're like, it's not happening.
Why is it not happening?
I'm not going to have this baby.
But there are so many ofthose things to look at.
Baby's position.
Did our water break first?
What's been going on?
Is our body even contractingenough to be in active labor?
Right.
And so same with me.
Like I was three centimeters andwas told failure to progress CPD.
(42:22):
but I wasn't failure to,I wasn't even in labor.
I wasn't even, I mean, I was inlabor, but I wasn't in active labor.
And that has changed over the years.
It used to be four centimeters.
Now it's six centimetersbefore they consider you in
an active stage or of labor.
that's another thing I was going to say.
when you asked about what are some,some things that we can ask to our
(42:44):
provider is if our water has now,this would be an intervention,
but if her water has been broken,
We're not dilating theirtalking C -section.
Sometimes, now again, it's anintervention and it can reduce some
infection and things like that, butsometimes asking, are my contractions
(43:07):
adequate enough to be progressing?
We can introduce an IUPC, which is aninner uterine pressure catheter that
actually tells the strength of...
the labor.
So now this is a way to essentiallymanage, like really manage your labor.
(43:28):
so it's like, you know, in those lastditch efforts, but it's something that you
can do because if they put it in and thenthey're like, your MVUs are way too low.
You're not even an adequate labor.
Then we know why we'renot progressing, right?
It might look like on the charts thatwe're going up and down and we're having
really great, beautiful contractions,but our uterus isn't contracting
strong enough to get that progress.
(43:51):
Jen & Sarah [43:21]
Well, this has been afabulous conversation.
I have learned a lot myself and Ilove that we're able to educate people
further on VBACs and the possibility ofthem and what can be done to get there.
Yeah.
I wanted to go intothe mental preparation.
So you had talked about, what happensif my labor is just like taking forever.
(44:13):
How do you help clients and what doyou recommend to stay in that positive
state and instead of feeling defeated?
Meagan [43:34]
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jen & Sarah [43:49]
during the process, right?
You have to have oxytocin inyour body in order for your
labor to continue functioning.
And I feel like getting defeated andfeeling depressed is like the number
one way you can kill that oxytocin.
Meagan [44:00]
Totally, and I think I kind of talkedabout it a little bit ago how in my V
(44:35):
BAC labor I actually triggered back.
Because I did, I spiraled backwards andI was in my driveway throwing a tantrum.
I really wish someone took a video ofit so I could like really show people
what I mean by throwing a tantrumbut my arms were flying, my head was
hanging, I was bawling, I was yellingand I was like, this isn't gonna happen.
(44:59):
I've done everything, you know,and we can get that to that point.
And then I had to just gather it allup, throw it away and be like, I'm not
going to let that negativity come overbecause I know, I know my body's capable.
I know I am going to do this.
And even if I don't do this, I'vedone everything I can to be here
(45:24):
right now to allow my body to try.
And...
I have to believe in that.
Now, I don't know where you find thatpersonally, whether it's meditation,
whether it's affirmation, whetherit's someone grabbing your face and
physically saying, you have got this.
And sometimes I do that with my clients.
I go head to head and I'mlike, cause sometimes in
(45:47):
labor, we can't see past here.
Like we're here.
We can't see past there.
We can't hear past there.
So right here, focus.
We've got this, right?
So another thing I think that I help withmy clients is let's talk about our fear.
What's going on?
What's going on in your mind?
Is our mind bogged up over here?
(46:09):
Do we need to release that?
Because sometimes once we releaseour feelings, our labor starts.
I had a client one time, I'll be backafter Suzy's section, mom, actually, and
we were in her living room and we got potsand I got a piece of paper and we had...
All her right, all of her fears and all ofher doubts and all of her negative things
(46:33):
that she was feeling because she didn'tfeel like she could vocally say them
which I think is totally fine and normal.
She wrote them all down and we processedeach and every single one of them.
Right?
And so we went through each one and wetalked about one, what are we feeling?
Two, why are we feeling that way?
(46:54):
And three, why can that feeling go away?
How can that feeling go away?
And we did like the opposite, right?
The positivity part of it.
And then she burnt it physically,watched it burn and let it go in the pot.
You guys, I cannot even tellyou what happened to her
body after we finished this.
(47:14):
And with each one, she would be like,like she was like stopping more.
She was becoming audible.
And I was like, yes, this is happening.
Her body released that.
you know, that oxytocin again,because everything was going away.
All of that negativity thatwas stomping her oxytocin.
Jen & Sarah [47:05]
(47:36):
It went away.
And that actually, I loved the book, TheVBAC Companion, and I pulled a quote from
it, which is perfect for your statement.
The journey to a VBACis not just physical.
It is deeply emotional and spiritual.
It's about healing, reclaiming, andmoving forward with strength and courage.
Meagan [47:23]
Yes.
look, can you guys see my arms right now?
(47:57):
Like standing, can you see those chills?
my goodness, yes.
Seriously, there's so muchthat comes with feedback.
And it, like it makes me emotionalthinking about it because I, I hate so
badly that it has to be so difficult.
I hate it.
(48:18):
I hate that it has to be so mentalbecause we've been stomped on.
Right?
But,
It is what it is.
It is.
That is the fact.
It is harder to navigate throughand it can be very emotional,
but you can get through it.
You can.
And I want to point out too thatlike VBAC isn't right for everybody.
Like we were talking about that before.
(48:39):
Like my best friend, she had no desireto ever VBAC or even explore the
idea of VBAC, which is totally okay.
And I think that let the VBAC link.
What we try to do is educateon both sides so people...
know their options on both sides andcan make the best choice for them.
So it is spiritual, it's emotional, it'sphysical, there's such this journey and
(49:02):
in the end you have to dial in to whatyou, you as an individual need for your
birth, for your life, for whatever.
What is your body saying?
What is your mind saying?
What is your heart saying?
Jen & Sarah [48:46]
I love that Megan.
And I feel like that's the premiseof our podcast is to find the best
birth for you, what that looks like.
(49:23):
And you were a great example of showinghow each birth was a little bit better.
Your second cesarean wasbetter than your first.
And I think that's the goal is just to getto a place where you are happy with that
birth and you've done all that you can do.
You've got the education, youhave backup plans and just the
support you need to continue.
Meagan [49:10]
Yeah, a lot of people ask mewhat my goal as a doula is.
(49:45):
And, you know, I always just tell peopleto help people have the best experience
that they can have no matter the outcome.
No matter the outcome.
Even if it's a Cesarean.
Even if it's an assisted delivery.
Whatever that outcome is, we wantto try to help that be the best
outcome for the best experiencefor them no matter the outcome.
(50:08):
Jen & Sarah [49:37]
Megan, thank you so much.
You are an inspiration.
I'm so grateful for the work thatyou're doing and I hope that our
listeners can find all of the resources,the education, the services that
you're providing at the VBAC link.
We will have some links in our shownotes that will lead people to you.
Are there any other resourcesor tips that you want to share
(50:30):
with us before we close today?
Meagan [49:41]
No.
yeah, so resources, I would say we haveactually a private community on Facebook
that I think is such an amazing place tobe because it's where a whole bunch of
like -minded people who are also lookingto see what the best option for them is.
So you can find out the VBAClink community on Facebook.
(50:50):
If you don't answer all thequestions, you don't get in.
Just saying.
there's, we just will not tolerateanybody that doesn't accept all the rules.
and you know,
My biggest thing is I wantto tell people that you can.
So there are a lot of people thatsay you can't do this, you can't do
(51:11):
that, you shouldn't do this, whatever.
Or I will let you, I will let you do this.
If you don't want, you know, if youdon't want to do something, don't do it.
Like you can do what is best for you.
Stand up for yourself.
You deserve it.
No matter what that is.
Jen & Sarah [50:58]
Thank you, Megan.
Well, before we close our podcast, haveHaley, who is from our mom squad and we
(51:35):
just have a secret that she is wantingto share and she says, while birth plans
are awesome, be prepared for anything.
Just like we touched on in the interview.
She had a high risk pregnancy, so shewas in and out of appointments, unsure
if she would have the baby that day orif they could wait one more week, but
she was prepared for anything and that.
it wouldn't go according to plan.
But like you said, as long as youhave those resources, as long as you
(51:57):
have thought through the things andgot the education, it'll be okay.
Okay.
Meagan [51:31]
Yeah, I love that she said that.
That really is, be prepared for anything.
Jen & Sarah [51:37]
Megan, thank you so much for joiningus on the Best Birth Podcast.
Meagan [51:41]
Thank you.
Jen & Sarah [51:43]
Thank you.
Thanks for joining us on today's episode.
(52:18):
We hope you've been elevated andinspired by this week's expert.
Subscribe today so you never missan episode and please share our
podcast or post on your socialmedia so that other moms and dads
to be can also have the best birth.
Please note that the informationprovided is based on the expert's
insights and personal experience.
(52:38):
It is not intended as medical guidance.
Please seek the advice of yourmedical provider as it applies
to your specific condition.
It's the Best Birth Podcast, wherewe interview experts that elevate
you as you prepare your heartand mind to have the best birth.
Each episode will interviewprofessionals so you are prepared
for pregnancy, birth, and postpartum.
Our experts will build your confidenceand empower you to trust your
intuition throughout your pregnancy.
This audio is takenfrom videos on YouTube.
(00:27):
Watch the entire episodes onYouTube at Birth Made Mindful.
Jen & Sarah [00:00]
Welcome to The Best Birth, apodcast where we invite experts
to help elevate your birth.
Today on our show, we have Megan Heaton.
Megan is a VBAC after two cesareans mom.
She's also a birth doula and educatorand the founder of the VBAC link.
(00:48):
Meagan [00:19]
Hello everybody!
Thank you so much for having me!
Jen & Sarah [00:23]
Thank you so much for joining our show.
Yes, and I am so excited to learnfrom you and your expertise.
The VBAC link is the numberone resource in VBAC education.
And I understand that you have apodcast with over 300 episodes and a
flourishing community for mamas preparingfor vaginal births after cesareans.
(01:13):
So we'd love to just dive right in andhear a little bit of your story and what
brought you to creating the VBAC link.
Meagan [00:47]
Yes, well thank you again for having me.
I love talking about VBAC.
Clearly I talk about it every week on mypodcast and I'm just really passionate
because I've been through it, right?
And so yeah, let me tell you moreabout my story, which is kind of
(01:36):
really where the VBAC link began.
So like you said, I havehad two C -sections.
With my first baby, I was young.
I got pregnant and I downloadedlike what to expect or
something like that on my phone.
And I kind of just let that app bemy education and be, you know, the
(02:02):
leading thing for me to understandwhat was happening not only to my
body, but to my baby, what sizemy baby was, what I was going to
be experiencing, all those things.
And I always was shocked when I wasn'texperiencing everything on the app.
Cause I'm like, wait, isn't thissupposed to be telling me what
I'm supposed to be experiencing?
(02:22):
Just going to give you some tip right now.
Don't only go off of an app for childbirtheducation or your pregnancy education.
It's just not, it's just not great.
It's, it's fine, but it's not great.
Jen & Sarah [02:08]
and there can never be enough education.
Meagan [02:10]
there really can't be enough education.
(02:43):
And that's the hardest part that Ihad to kind of learn is I thought I
had all the education I needed rightthere in my little app because it
was telling me everything, right?
And then there was a forum in the app.
So that was cool.
I was kind of seeing peopleand relating to people.
(03:03):
So yeah, so I kind of justwent off of that and...
I found myself at 39 weeks,5 days, and my water broke.
And I was super excited!
I mean, who's not excitedwhen that water breaks?
Because that is a sure signthat your baby is coming, right?
But I didn't really havea lot of things happening.
(03:25):
Like, I was kind of cramping every timeI would get a contraction that I didn't
even really realize was a contraction.
You know, I'd get a littlebit more leakage, but...
That was about all I experiencedafter my water broke.
But what I was told is if your waterbreaks, you go straight to the hospital.
And now I know better,but that's what I did.
(03:49):
I went right to the hospital.
Super excited.
We got our bags.
We went in and I was like, maybe aone, like maybe like a half centimeter.
And they were just like,okay, here's your room.
And they just like put us in this room.
And I remember it was kind of like hangingout, like thinking, okay, what's going on?
(04:12):
What do we do?
And so I just sat in the bed andthings did start to kind of pick up.
And within time they came in and theywanted to do another cervical exam
and I hadn't progressed super far.
And again, hours and hours went by,finally checked again and I was,
I was three centimeters, which...
seemed like really great progress.
I went in, I say it was around midnight,my water broke around midnight and then
(04:38):
we went in around one or so and it waslike noon and I was three centimeters and
starting to finally feel contractions andthey were like, nah, this isn't happening.
This isn't good.
And I was like, wait, what?
So they put me on Pitocin and they werelike, we have to get this labor going.
So I started Pitocin and
(05:00):
my gosh, I was not prepared for that.
That little app did notprepare me for Pitocin.
Pitocin is definitely, you know, it's asynthetic hormone that gets pumped into
our body to help our uterus contract.
And that's exactly what it did.
So I started contracting strongerand I just wasn't prepared.
I didn't know how to breathe.
I didn't know how to cope.
(05:21):
My husband didn't know anything.
He definitely wasn't readingmy What to Expect app.
And so I found myself clinging to the bedtelling him, do something, do something.
So I ended up getting an epidural.
And I just, I wasn't dilating.
And my doctor just said,this isn't happening.
(05:42):
I think that we need to have a C -section.
And I just said,
and that's not what I wanted, Iactually had talked to him about
c -section in my prenatal just alittle bit because my mom had had a
c -section with me, coincidentallyenough with the same provider.
So my provider was the guy whohelped my mom, helped me get here.
(06:06):
So anyway, I just didn't knowwhat else to do and my husband
was like, we gotta do this.
Like, if this is whatthey say, we gotta do it.
So I said okay, so they unhookedmy bed and wheeled my bed down
to the OR and I had a c -section.
And you know, it wasn't necessarilya bad experience on my podcast.
(06:29):
I definitely hear some trauma storiesin regards to c -section and mine
fortunately wasn't necessarilytraumatic, but it wasn't what I wanted.
You know, I didn't necessarily want that.
So...
Jen & Sarah [05:53]
Mm.
Meagan [06:14]
Anyway, I went in and did recovery andstarted already thinking about what
(06:51):
I wanted to do for baby number two.
And so I did, I just started, you know,like kind of researching and learned
about a doula, but I wasn't even pregnant,so I just kind of was like, okay, cool.
No, I actually didn'tlearn about a doula yet.
I learned about VBAC,that's what I learned about.
Just like the VBAC was an option.
And I was like, cool, well I'm notpregnant, so we'll figure it out.
(07:14):
later so then I started thinking okayI want to get pregnant so I talked to
my OB and said hey I want to be backwhen I get pregnant he's like yeah cool
no problem so I got pregnant and I waswith my OB and he was super supportive
saying he was he's like yeah that'sno problem and I was like cool if you
(07:34):
support VBAC that's a thumbs up for meand so then I started digging more and
found out about a dual late in pregnancy
I remember, my gosh, we were at arestaurant and I told my husband I
want a doula and he got like irate.
He was like, no, you arenot gonna replace me.
And I was like, no, no, no, it's notlike that, which is a very common myth
(07:57):
of doulas is them being, you know,replacing our partner and our loved ones.
And that's not the case, but hejust wasn't super sure about that.
So he went out of town at 38 weeks.
Jen & Sarah [07:17]
Cool.
Meagan [07:39]
like four days or somethinglike that and he went out of
town for work and guess what?
My water broke.
(08:18):
Again.
So I was kind of okay with it though.
I was like, that's fine.
It'll be fine.
My husband won't make it back.
I'm planning on laboring a homeas long as possible anyway.
I'm not rushing to theproviders this time.
And so anyway, he got home and he waslike, why aren't you at the hospital?
Your water broke hours ago.
I'm like, I'm fine.
(08:38):
I'm like barely contracting and he'slike no we gotta go and my mom was like
you gotta go So I ended up just sayingokay, so we went to the hospital and
again not really dilated But it reallywasn't contracting so that's something
a big key that I just want to mentionlike if your body is not Contracting
we cannot expect to be dilated We justcan't right like and you could be dilated
(09:03):
a little bit before labor We know thatbut like we're not gonna be like dilated
Jen & Sarah [08:29]
Mmm.
Meagan [08:37]
really far.
Like we're not going to be having a baby.
So if I'm not contracting, Ishouldn't be worried about having
a baby in the car or somethingbecause I'm not even contracting.
So anyway, my body doesn'tdilate before labor.
Like a lot of people's kind of, youknow, one to four centimeters people
(09:24):
can kind of dilate and start softening.
So I went in and they'relike, you're maybe a one.
I was like, awesome.
Great.
Here we are.
And my nurse was amazing.
She was also a doula.
And so she was like helping me.
When I did have contractions, Iwould have them in my back, which
was a sign that, you know, my babywas maybe not positioned very well.
(09:47):
And my husband was exhausted.
He like crashed.
He's like, I made it.
And like fell asleep in thelittle chair in the corner.
And so her and I just kind ofchatted and did labor a little bit.
And...
Jen & Sarah [09:06]
Mmm.
Meagan [09:31]
Yeah, I just didn't really dilate.
I was begging for Pitocin.
I was like, can I have Pitocin?
Can I do something to help this labor?
(10:07):
Cause they were kind of saying like, ifthis doesn't happen, then it's going to
need to be a repeat C -section, right?
And so she asked and myprovider said no to Pitocin,
said it was a contraindication,which we'll talk about later.
and yeah, just kind of let me hang.
I just didn't do much.
(10:28):
And shift change happened at 7am, youknow, as it does often in hospitals.
And my amazing nurse went awayand an amazing nurse came in
but wasn't the nurse I needed.
She was like, alright, let'sjust have a C -section.
Provider wants a C -section.
He came in.
He was kind of negative.
Kind of said like, your bodydoesn't know how to do this.
(10:49):
It can't do this.
You just need a sectionis what he kept saying.
And I was like, I don't want that.
Can you just give me an hour?
And I never felt acontraction again after that.
My body went into like freeze modewhere everything just stopped.
So I walked around for an hour trying toget labor to go and it just didn't go.
(11:11):
And finally my husband waslike, can we just have a baby?
You know, and he was kind ofputting some fear into my husband.
He was kind of saying some scary things.
And so anyway, I walked downand I had a repeat C -section.
Jen & Sarah [10:43]
Hmm.
Meagan [10:56]
And honestly, that birthwas so healing in a way.
(11:32):
It was not the birth I wanted, right?
I really wanted a vaginal birth, but Igot to be included in that birth so much.
I got to watch my C -section, which Iknow isn't for everybody, but that was
like really healing for me to really beincluded in what was happening and see
in the mirror my baby coming up, right?
(11:53):
So it was really good.
It was good.
Jen & Sarah [11:07]
you
Yeah.
Meagan [11:25]
Like overall, I feel...
I've really felt at peace with my birth.
I was really grateful for my husband forremembering some of those things, like
wanting to watch it and wanting to be partof it and having music and having just
a better experience than just like beingin a bright room with beeping, you know?
(12:16):
And so anyway, so I had her and I wasin the recovery room, the post -op room.
Jen & Sarah [11:27]
Thank you.
Hmm.
Meagan [11:54]
and I started, I was breastfeedingher and just like smitten over
this little baby and startedGoogling how to become a doula.
My priorities may not havebeen in the right place.
(12:36):
I may have been a littledistracted over here, but I did.
I started Googling how tobecome a doula and everything
inside of me just lit on fire.
And I was like, one, I'm goingto become a doula and two,
I'm going to be back one day.
I'm going to do this.
Jen & Sarah [12:05]
Bye.
Meagan [12:21]
So I decided to become a doulabefore I even left the hospital.
I registered for my course andthen enjoyed my little newborn
(13:00):
and started my journey right away.
Right away.
And I wasn't expecting that.
Sometimes I have alittle bit of mom guilt.
You know how we get mom guilt sometimeswhere I'm like, man, I should have
probably spent more time with mynewborn than like being distracted
about a baby that wasn't even born yet.
(13:21):
Jen & Sarah [12:27]
Hello.
Meagan [12:51]
or supporting people thatI didn't even know yet.
But
I don't know, it's justwhere my mind went.
I just, I think maybe too itwas a little bit of processing.
You know, the birth that I didn't get.
So anyway, years laterI was already a doula.
I was loving it.
(13:42):
It was so fun.
VBAC was definitely like a big thingfor me and I just wanted to learn more.
So not only did I want to learn more,
for my clients, right?
I wanted to learn more for me too.
And so I just dove head first,started learning all the things
about VBAC, the risks, the facts,really what does it look like?
(14:05):
Does that big rupture word,that they say really have like
a really high rate or is it low?
You know, what are we doing?
Anyway, and what I learnedis a lot of positive things
actually that VBAC is very safe
Jen & Sarah [13:48]
Hmm.
Meagan [13:49]
and reasonable that yes, uterinerupture, although that word is very,
(14:25):
very big and scary, the chances arepretty dang low, like pretty dang low.
And I never want to discredit anythingor anyone that has had a uterine rupture.
I mean, I think that's really importantto know is like they do happen.
And when they do happen,they are emergent.
When, when they do happen, it'svery rare that it's catastrophic.
(14:49):
but they happen and I don't want tomake it sound like it's so low that
they don't happen because they do.
But with the low, with the rate beingas low as it was, I felt very confident
in trying again and going for it.
So I interviewed a ridiculous amount ofproviders, maybe 12 might be my number,
(15:13):
which might sound crazy, but I really,really, really wanted to find a provider.
Jen & Sarah [14:18]
Thank you.
Meagan [14:47]
that would support, truly support.
And that I think is a big key when itcomes to VBAC and wanting a VBAC is you
have to find a provider that supports you.
And there's a difference betweensomeone who is like, my first
(15:35):
one, yeah, no problem, you can doit, to actually being supportive.
Right?
And so I wanted to find someone who,
Jen & Sarah [15:10]
Mm.
Meagan [15:16]
would tell me both the risks of C-section, repeat C -section and V BAC.
Because when we're talking V -BAC,people only focus on V BAC They
(15:56):
don't talk about the risks of repeatC -section, which there are many.
And we just don't talk about them, right?
It's like, it's fine.
But V -BAC is scary.
And so I wanted someone to really giveme both because I wanted to know both my
risks of both outcomes, knowing that V-back could also lead to a C -section.
Jen & Sarah [15:30]
Thank you.
(16:17):
Meagan [15:46]
I wanted to know that risk if Igo in for a scheduled c -section
versus a VBAC or a TOLAC, right?
Going into a c -section.
So, I didn't want a yes or no answer.
I wanted to know how they felt about VBAC.
How do you feel about VBAC?
So if you are listening and you areinterested in a VBAC, that is something
I highly suggest you ask your provider.
(16:39):
How they feel about VBAC.
You're going to know within abouta split two seconds how they feel
and if they're really supportive.
Jen & Sarah [16:04]
you
Meagan [16:15]
If they're like, my gosh, I loveVBAC, it's so great, this is what's
going on, these are the pros,these are the cons, and they're
breaking it down, that's great.
If they're like, it's fine, you cando it, but you have to go into labor
(17:02):
spontaneously, you can't go past40 weeks, if your water breaks, you
have to come right in and be on amonitor, all of these restrictions,
those are not so supportive answers.
Jen & Sarah [16:41]
Hmm.
Meagan [16:45]
right, if they have a bunchof restrictions on you.
So I did find a lot of those providersthat put a lot of restrictions.
(17:22):
And then I had some that I was like,okay, I could see you being supportive,
but I'm gonna kind of like keep going.
And so I finally found aprovider who was awesome.
And at the time here in Utah,he was like the VBAC king.
Like he was the one to support VBAC.
And so I was like, done, I'mgoing to you, you are great.
(17:44):
And I did I started careand he was wonderful.
Absolutely wonderful But I attended an out-of -hospital birth at like 20 probably 20
weeks or so it was Christmas Eve actuallyand this midwife just blew me away just
blew me away, and I was still a newerdoula so I hadn't seen a ton of out -of
(18:08):
-hospital births at that at that point andYeah, I just said after the birth I said
Jen & Sarah [17:28]
Mm -hmm.
Meagan [17:43]
Can I come see you after the holidays?
Like I would love to discussmy birth plans with you.
She was like, yeah, no problem.
So I went in and decidedto switch at 24 weeks care.
And I actually did some dual care.
(18:30):
I don't know, have you guysever heard of dual care?
Jen & Sarah [17:51]
sure.
and
Yes.
So you see your physician or yourOBGYN and then you also see your
midwife to plan to deliver at aplace other than your hospital.
Meagan [18:11]
Exactly, so I did dual care and for alittle bit and I think that just I don't
know it just kind of helped my heartfeel like I was do it was okay like I
(18:53):
had a backup plan right which I actuallythink no matter what especially if
you're giving birth out of the hospitaland be backing or not even be backing.
You should have a backup plan.
I think that's important Soyeah, so I started care with
her and it was just amazing andI felt so supportive and then I
As a doula, I had a couple doulasthat were like, hey, I want to
(19:14):
be at your birth really bad.
So I had, you know, I started reallygetting this team in this village
surrounding me and building me up.
And unfortunately I didn't have a lotof support from family members with,
with the idea to be back in generaland then two for sure out of hospital.
So I, I like kind of toyedwith it and just like said some
(19:38):
things about out of hospital.
And I had one person like,
You can't do that.
And I was like, okay, Iwill not be sharing my plan.
So I kind of kept my planto myself and my team.
And I think that's okay to protectyour space if you have, you know,
some maybe outside negativitycoming in or lack of support.
(19:59):
And I want to note, I want tonote too, because my family, it's
not that they didn't support me,it's that they were uneducated.
They didn't know.
Right?
And so they weren't badfor not supporting me.
They just didn't know the facts.
They only heard the scarystuff that they heard.
And so I don't judge them forever notsupporting me or anything like that.
(20:23):
It's usually the casewith a lot of people.
They just don't know what they don't know.
So anyway, yeah, fast forward.
My water breaks again.
Go me.
They say 10 % of people havetheir water break, but I...
three for three.
So my water broke and labordefinitely took its time.
(20:43):
Really took its time.
We had a posterior situationagain where my baby was in my, you
know, in my back looking forward.
So baby's head against my back.
And so we had to work really hardto do that with motions and movement
and resting and all the things.
(21:04):
But we ended up...
42 hours later, I'm on a squat stool andon a bathroom floor, which sounds kind of
crazy, but I was on a stool with everyonesurrounded around me, my husband holding
me behind me, my midwife in front of me,my doulas on the side of me, and I in two
(21:25):
pushes, two sets of pushes, I should say,pushed my little guy out after being told
I would never get a baby out of my pelvis.
Right?
And that my body didn'tknow how to dilate.
I was told those two things and notonly told them, it was put on my
op report that my pelvis was toosmall to physically get a baby out.
(21:46):
And so yeah, so it had me be back andit was just the most amazing feeling.
And there wasn't a dry eye in the room.
We were all crying a lotof the doula community was
following my story because I was
Jen & Sarah [21:13]
Yeah.
Meagan [21:28]
I was pretty vocal in thecommunity because I felt very
supported in that community.
And this amazing woman, JulieFrancom, she called me one day
(22:11):
out of the blue and said, hey, Iwant to start a company with you.
I want to call it Utah VBAC Link.
And I was like, huh, that sounds cool.
Let's, yeah, let's do it.
And I did make her wait a little bit.
I had to think about it.
Jen & Sarah [21:39]
Thank you.
Meagan [21:56]
But we did it and that'swhere the VBAC link started.
So it actually started as Utah VBAC link.
(22:33):
And as we started, we found thatthere was such a bigger need.
There was such a biggerneed outside of Utah.
So then the VBAC link was born andwe started a podcast, an education
course and love talking VBAC.
Jen & Sarah [22:03]
Hmm.
Megan, our hearts are exploding.
(22:55):
Yes, to hear that, I have been told somany times that your pelvis is too small.
And so I have just been in the modeof accepting cesarean and never
really considered that that was anoption because of what I've been told.
So I love that you were toldsomething and then you questioned
it and you sought more education.
That's incredible.
Meagan [22:23]
Hahaha!
Yeah, and you know, I want totell you, you are not alone, love.
(23:17):
Like, I mean, with a cesarean rate at32 .1 % just a couple years ago, think
about how many of us have been told ourpelvis is too small, your body doesn't
know how to do it, you know, your babiesare just too big, you just make too
big of babies, things like that, right?
Like we were told that, and whenwe are told that by a medical
(23:39):
professional who did years of schooling,
We can't blame ourselvesfor believing that.
We can't.
Right?
Like, I'm not a professional.
So, yeah.
Jen & Sarah [23:22]
Tell us what were some of the thingsthat you did to prepare for your VBAC?
So you felt that confidence becauseyou were receiving a message that
(24:03):
might have diminished your confidence.
Meagan [23:34]
such a good question.
And let me tell you, even afterpreparing, I might've had a little
trigger during labor, actually.
I triggered back a little bitand started doubting myself.
So one, I got my op reports.
That is a really big first step for anyonewho has had a cesarean or cesareans who
(24:27):
may want to explore the option of VBAC.
That is a really big thing becausewe are often told one thing,
and in our op reports, documented another.
Which is kind of weird to think aboutwhy we would be told something and
documented another, but it does happen.
And so we want to know reallywhat happened in that cesarean.
(24:49):
What are the reasons that they'resaying these cesareans happened, right?
Was it a fetal heart drop?
Was it our pelvis?
Was it something else, right?
So getting my op reports, that isthe first thing I did to prepare.
and I went through them.
Now at that point I was a doula andso I had a better knowledge of what
(25:11):
the terms went and things like that.
But that's something wedo at the VBAC link too.
We help people go through thoseop reports and understand what
is being said and what was done.
So understanding what they said.
I think that's a really,really big first key.
And then I think acceptance.
I had to accept.
(25:32):
I had to accept that those...
happened.
Those C -sections happened.
And I think that through thatacceptance I actually found gratitude
and being really grateful for my body.
A lot of people when they doubttheir body they think negatively.
My body wasn't strong enough.
(25:52):
My body didn't do it.
My body wasn't you know createdcorrectly or whatever grew
correctly to do this like...
It's really hard what we can do, I thinkas women in general, but when we're told
these things by our providers, it's hard
to put those things in our minds.
So, acceptance, be grateful foryour body, and then start educating.
(26:18):
So, I started educating andreally learning about those
risks and learning about what thesigns were of uterine rupture.
and you know the wrists of caesarian and
learning just learning more also aboutmy body and what the pelvis actually
(26:38):
does in labor now you guys our pelvisesare incredible i actually have a pelvis
right here i just want to show you
Jen & Sarah [26:16]
this is perfect.
I'm so glad that you have a demonstration.
Meagan [26:18]
I do!
I mean and this is like I have a littleguy right here so this one doesn't move
as much but look at this amazing likebone structure that we have in our bodies.
(27:01):
It does so much for us right?
We sit, we lay, we stand, werun, we jump, all the things.
Guess what?
It also births babies really well but ifwe have any weird abnormally so my pelvis
specifically don't know why just does it.
But my pelvis, I'm going to turnit this way so you can kind of see.
My pelvis does this.
(27:23):
Sorry, this.
My left hip goes forward.
Can you kind of see that hole?
OK, so my left goes forward all the time.
And my right sits back.
And then my sacrum, can yousee what happens to my sacrum?
It tucks under and twists.
(27:43):
Jen & Sarah [26:58]
Yeah.
Tuck's under.
Meagan [27:13]
So when we are trying to get a babyout, I'm gonna use my little one here.
We're trying to get a baby out of thislittle space and we have twisted things.
Look what that space does, itmakes us so much smaller, right?
So we can't get a baby out aswell when our pelvis is wonky like
(28:04):
this because our babies have tocome down and rotate to come out.
And so when everything's tuckedin wrong, it just makes it hard.
So I started chiropractic care.
I was a little weary of chiropractors.
I was like, they're quacks.
That's what I said.
I was like, they're a little quacky,but through my research of things
(28:27):
to do with feedback, I reallyfound a benefit of chiropractors.
So I started with chiropractorand sure enough, he said, your
left goes forward, your back goesback, your sacrum's all twisted.
We gotta keep on this.
And when we're pregnant, we make extrarelaxant hormones and so our pelvis can
get out of whack a little, little easier.
(28:49):
Then it can make it so the babycan come down a little wonky.
And when the floodgates openlike my births, we just, babies
just come and they can come downin all wonky positions, right?
So that's another thing I learned.
I'm more about positioning of babies.
what the signs were that a baby was in alack, you know, lack of term of, I should
(29:12):
say, poor, poor, a poor position, okay?
And what to do.
So as soon as with my water brokewith my third, when my, when all
my contractions were in my back,I knew, my gosh, he's posterior.
And then I also learned, my gosh,Lila, my second was posterior too.
(29:34):
so one, I didn't have time toget into labor with that one.
I just wasn't given the time,but two, she needed work to
help get on the cervix, right?
Cause if our baby's heads are not pressingon the cervix correctly, that's hard.
So look, here's another thing.
You can see that big part of thehead, small part of the head.
If our baby's head, if our baby's headsright here on the cervix, can you see how
(29:56):
less pressure is being put on our cervix?
Because there's less head, right?
So positioning, that's another thing Ilearned to prep and then really mentally
and physically so I was eating better.
I was staying hydrated.
I was trying to work out andwalk and stay physically fit.
I was really trying to focus on mynutrients, making sure that I was
(30:20):
giving my body and my baby the thingsthat it needed to grow a healthy baby.
So those were all the things I neededto prep as well and then finding that do
-finding those doulas, finding that provider, those were all really,
really key factors in my prep as well.
Jen & Sarah [30:07]
And I remember learning cause Ihave a very similar story to you.
(30:41):
Although I only had one cesareanbefore my VBAC, my second baby, but
both births were actually posterior.
And so for my second birth, weactually went to the chiropractor
an hour before he was born.
And that was 28 hours into my labor.
And so I feel like a chiropractor isthe reason that I was able to have
(31:02):
that VBAC because he was able to open.
my hips and my pelvis in a waythat could rotate the baby.
But I do want to go backto the malpositioning.
So if a baby is in the wrong position, howdo you get the baby in the right position?
Meagan [30:38]
yeah.
Yes, such a good question.
And I'm also going to even go alittle bit back to what we were
(31:23):
talking with the pelvis is too small.
Usually when our pelvis isdocumented too small or CP,
it's actually a baby's position.
And it's more that the babycouldn't fit through in a wonky
position, then we just needed work.
So what we do is one, wetune into what's happening.
(31:43):
Where's our contractions?
So as a doula, I'm paying attention to,
Where those are, are they all on our back?
Are they all up front?
Can we sit down comfortably during, andcomfortably during a contraction, right?
but can we sit down or when we sitdown, are we like forced to crawl
to our knees because it's so muchpressure in that pubic area, right?
(32:06):
Or is it going down one sideof the leg or are we coupling?
So a coupling contraction is where we havetwo really, really close contractions.
that were like decent, but maybenot like didn't floor us, right?
And then we have a break.
(32:27):
Like it's pretty solid break.
And then we have the strongestcontraction where we're like,
my gosh, this baby's coming.
And it takes us out of our focus.
And it took everything wehad to get through that.
And then all of a sudden we havetwo little ones again, and then
a break, and then a strong one.
So that's our uterus.
It's brilliant.
It's absolutely brilliant.
Our bodies are brilliant.
(32:48):
And that's, are you justtrying to move a baby?
So if we're having that couplingpattern, that's telling me
we've got to do some work.
So a lot of the times it's positioning.
So if we're having all of it in our back,we're going to do forward leaning things.
Or if we're getting it more in onepelvis, we're going to maybe do
some asymmetrical movements and tryto find the balance in our pelvis.
(33:10):
Maybe we're rotating thesein if our baby's really low.
but we're still kind of feeling like maybebaby's asyncletic or something like that.
And asyncletics like wherethey're tilted like this.
So we might rotate our knees in orout or even do both of them, right?
So we're gonna be.
Jen & Sarah [32:55]
Do we keep that positionfor multiple contractions or
do we change with each one?
(33:31):
Meagan [33:01]
So good question.
I actually like to keep it for threeto five contractions before we shift.
And the shift doesn't need to be dramatic.
It doesn't need to be, we're standingup and our knees are all over the
place, you know, and then all of asudden we're laying down and we're
doing the, I mean, it can be subtle.
It can be like we're leaning over thebed and we're, you know, we're swaying
(33:52):
our hips and then we get a tiny littlestool and we're still leaning over the
bed, but now our foot's on a stool.
So now we're in that asymmetric,you know, we're asymmetrical.
or maybe we're rotating a knee inor maybe we're rotating a knee out
standing up or if we're laying downwe don't have to like drive all the
way over to the other side, you know?
(34:13):
We can just switch our pelvis up alittle bit right there because even
just a little, here's my pelvisagain, just a little bit of movement.
So here maybe our kneesare, you know, vertical.
What is that?
What's the, what's the direction?
Straight.
We're straight.
And then now we tilt the onepelvis up or one knee up.
(34:36):
So then we're makingthe inlet bigger, right?
So we're allowing that space over here.
So just little movementsis what we need to do.
So every three to five, move if you can.
Now, if it is absolutely nottolerable to stay in that position,
listen to your body, move, right?
(34:57):
Listen to your body.
Jen & Sarah [34:29]
I think this is a great marriagebetween showing how science has advanced
and we've had other interventionsthat we've been able to use.
But on the other hand, can we evenit out with education and changing
the positions and figuring out howto labor and all of those things?
I feel like that's kind of what's beenmissing as we've advanced in science.
(35:20):
Meagan [34:49]
yeah, yeah.
You know, we for, I think in a lot ofways we've forgotten about these things,
like movement and position, and we're notpaying attention to those as much as in
like, well, the baby hasn't come at thistime, so it's time to go for a C -section.
Your pelvis must be too small.
Jen & Sarah [35:09]
And what are some of the questionsthat we can ask to our providers
(35:44):
during labor when it's presented thatwe might need to have the C -section?
Meagan [35:19]
Okay, yeah, so and one, I thinkthe very first question is, is why?
Why is the reason you are, what's thereason you are suggesting a C -section?
Is my baby doing okay?
Is everything okay with the baby?
(36:04):
If they say, yeah, baby's doing okay.
Okay, am I doing okay?
Are my baby or I at risk,serious risk right now?
If they say yes.
then we have some things to talk about.
If they say no, okay, we're okay.
So what's the reason?
Okay, well, your water has been brokenfor 18 hours, we'll say, and you're
(36:30):
only five centimeters and you've beenfive centimeters for three hours.
Okay, so it's a progression issue.
All right, what are the thingswe can do before going to
the C -section route, right?
And ask.
Have I only not dilated?
Is that the only thingthat I haven't done?
Like have I effaced?
(36:51):
Has my baby come down lower?
You know, what are, have thereother changes been being made?
Cause if that's the case, there'sreally no evidence on that.
Like if we're making change and everyone'sdoing okay, we can keep going, right?
So kind of asking thosequestions, are we safe?
Are we okay?
Why?
If it's just a progression issue,what other things can we do?
(37:14):
before we go that route.
Can we start introducing Pitocin?
Can we get up and movein a different position?
And you know, really kind of ask thosequestions that they need to answer
to you, because it's called consent.
So they need to be really tellingyou what's going on with your
body, and before they just say,you have to have a C -section.
(37:37):
So asking those questions,what's going on?
Are we safe?
What can we do?
And then you can also say like, well, inthis situation, what have you seen help?
Right?
And if they just say, a C -section.
Well, I don't know ifthat's necessarily fact.
(37:57):
I mean, maybe that's howthey're caring, right?
And we're realizing that thisprovider may not be as supportive
for VBAC as we thought.
But maybe they can say, do you know whatI found is that we turned Pitocin off.
give your body a break, let youruterine receptors clear out of
pitocin and start over gradually orcut it in half and let your body get
(38:18):
a break and then start progressingthat way or something like that.
Like, okay, let's reallytalk about options.
Cause if mom and baby are okay, thereare typically other things we can do
before going the Caesarian route, right?
Jen & Sarah [38:02]
And what is the rate of cervicalchange that's required before we might
(38:38):
understand that there is a problem orsome sort of stalling with contractions?
Meagan [38:14]
Well, you know, the biggest thingis if there is zero, if our water is
broken, there is zero change and it'sbeen like six to 12 hours, then we
need to be talking about something.
Something needs to happen, right?
(38:59):
So they can say, at that pointthey can say failure to progress or
failure to descend because there'snot really anything happening.
But like I was saying earlier,if you maybe haven't dilated
in four hours, which is...
normal, especially at 4 or 5 centimeters,you're not even in active labor yet,
but you went from 30 % of face to80 % of face, that's significant change.
(39:24):
Your body's just been notdilating, but it's been working
and softening and thinning.
Another question too is asked tohow far the cervix has come forward.
So a lot of the times in early labor,it's posterior and it will come
forward in a line with the birth canal.
So you can talk to them about that.
So if they're saying there has not beenany change, make sure to talk about that.
(39:44):
change right like in a whole not justthat one number one to ten or zero to ten.
So yeah so they can they can diagnoseit as failure to progress you know after
that six to twelve hour mark usuallyaround six hours if at you know water's
broken six centimeters or six hours andyour body has gone into the active phase
(40:10):
of later meaning six centimeters ormore then they're they're probably gonna
discuss things.
Jen & Sarah [39:45]
And one thing as I was studying formy VBAC, that was really apparent.
It takes our bodies a lot oftime to get into active labor.
And so if your water breaks and youhead straight to the hospital and then
they put you on a clock, you're kindof doomed because our bodies take a
(40:33):
lot of time for active labor to happen.
So in my experience, my chart saysthat I have failure to progress, but
I only dilated to two centimeters.
I never got beyond that.
Meagan [39:54]
Yes.
Jen & Sarah [40:14]
So I felt like that was kind ofa mistake on my chart because
I was never in active labor.
My baby was sunny side up.
He was in the wrong position.
(40:53):
And maybe if we had found out that he wasin the wrong position on day one of my
labor, instead of day two of my labor,there would have been more time to do
the positioning, to shift him and thenstill have a chance for vaginal delivery.
Meagan [40:21]
Yeah.
Jen & Sarah [40:37]
and so in my other labors, that wassomething I noticed is I felt like I
was in labor for a long time and I wouldstart tracking, you know, and then I would
(41:16):
think, okay, it's only been three hoursof contractions and now they're gone.
And every day I remember waking up andthinking like, I'm still contracting.
Why am I not in labor?
Like, why hasn't my baby come yet?
And it was that realization thatit takes our bodies a lot of
time to get into active labor.
Meagan [40:45]
yeah.
Thank you.
Jen & Sarah [41:04]
But then once active labor is presentfor, for me, it did not take a long time
(41:40):
once my baby was in the right position.
And that was for my third labor,my entire labor, I think was five
hours from the time that I felt like,okay, these contractions are real.
And then delivering that baby.
Meagan [41:11]
Bye.
Yeah!
Yeah, and that's such a good, goodthing to talk about because I think
sometimes when we're looking at lengthin a hole, it's defeating because
(42:01):
we're like, it's not happening.
Why is it not happening?
I'm not going to have this baby.
But there are so many ofthose things to look at.
Baby's position.
Did our water break first?
What's been going on?
Is our body even contractingenough to be in active labor?
Right.
And so same with me.
Like I was three centimeters andwas told failure to progress CPD.
(42:22):
but I wasn't failure to,I wasn't even in labor.
I wasn't even, I mean, I was inlabor, but I wasn't in active labor.
And that has changed over the years.
It used to be four centimeters.
Now it's six centimetersbefore they consider you in
an active stage or of labor.
that's another thing I was going to say.
when you asked about what are some,some things that we can ask to our
(42:44):
provider is if our water has now,this would be an intervention,
but if her water has been broken,
We're not dilating theirtalking C -section.
Sometimes, now again, it's anintervention and it can reduce some
infection and things like that, butsometimes asking, are my contractions
(43:07):
adequate enough to be progressing?
We can introduce an IUPC, which is aninner uterine pressure catheter that
actually tells the strength of...
the labor.
So now this is a way to essentiallymanage, like really manage your labor.
(43:28):
so it's like, you know, in those lastditch efforts, but it's something that you
can do because if they put it in and thenthey're like, your MVUs are way too low.
You're not even an adequate labor.
Then we know why we'renot progressing, right?
It might look like on the charts thatwe're going up and down and we're having
really great, beautiful contractions,but our uterus isn't contracting
strong enough to get that progress.
(43:51):
Jen & Sarah [43:21]
Well, this has been afabulous conversation.
I have learned a lot myself and Ilove that we're able to educate people
further on VBACs and the possibility ofthem and what can be done to get there.
Yeah.
I wanted to go intothe mental preparation.
So you had talked about, what happensif my labor is just like taking forever.
(44:13):
How do you help clients and what doyou recommend to stay in that positive
state and instead of feeling defeated?
Meagan [43:34]
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jen & Sarah [43:49]
during the process, right?
You have to have oxytocin inyour body in order for your
labor to continue functioning.
And I feel like getting defeated andfeeling depressed is like the number
one way you can kill that oxytocin.
Meagan [44:00]
Totally, and I think I kind of talkedabout it a little bit ago how in my V
(44:35):
BAC labor I actually triggered back.
Because I did, I spiraled backwards andI was in my driveway throwing a tantrum.
I really wish someone took a video ofit so I could like really show people
what I mean by throwing a tantrumbut my arms were flying, my head was
hanging, I was bawling, I was yellingand I was like, this isn't gonna happen.
(44:59):
I've done everything, you know,and we can get that to that point.
And then I had to just gather it allup, throw it away and be like, I'm not
going to let that negativity come overbecause I know, I know my body's capable.
I know I am going to do this.
And even if I don't do this, I'vedone everything I can to be here
(45:24):
right now to allow my body to try.
And...
I have to believe in that.
Now, I don't know where you find thatpersonally, whether it's meditation,
whether it's affirmation, whetherit's someone grabbing your face and
physically saying, you have got this.
And sometimes I do that with my clients.
I go head to head and I'mlike, cause sometimes in
(45:47):
labor, we can't see past here.
Like we're here.
We can't see past there.
We can't hear past there.
So right here, focus.
We've got this, right?
So another thing I think that I help withmy clients is let's talk about our fear.
What's going on?
What's going on in your mind?
Is our mind bogged up over here?
(46:09):
Do we need to release that?
Because sometimes once we releaseour feelings, our labor starts.
I had a client one time, I'll be backafter Suzy's section, mom, actually, and
we were in her living room and we got potsand I got a piece of paper and we had...
All her right, all of her fears and all ofher doubts and all of her negative things
(46:33):
that she was feeling because she didn'tfeel like she could vocally say them
which I think is totally fine and normal.
She wrote them all down and we processedeach and every single one of them.
Right?
And so we went through each one and wetalked about one, what are we feeling?
Two, why are we feeling that way?
(46:54):
And three, why can that feeling go away?
How can that feeling go away?
And we did like the opposite, right?
The positivity part of it.
And then she burnt it physically,watched it burn and let it go in the pot.
You guys, I cannot even tellyou what happened to her
body after we finished this.
(47:14):
And with each one, she would be like,like she was like stopping more.
She was becoming audible.
And I was like, yes, this is happening.
Her body released that.
you know, that oxytocin again,because everything was going away.
All of that negativity thatwas stomping her oxytocin.
Jen & Sarah [47:05]
(47:36):
It went away.
And that actually, I loved the book, TheVBAC Companion, and I pulled a quote from
it, which is perfect for your statement.
The journey to a VBACis not just physical.
It is deeply emotional and spiritual.
It's about healing, reclaiming, andmoving forward with strength and courage.
Meagan [47:23]
Yes.
look, can you guys see my arms right now?
(47:57):
Like standing, can you see those chills?
my goodness, yes.
Seriously, there's so muchthat comes with feedback.
And it, like it makes me emotionalthinking about it because I, I hate so
badly that it has to be so difficult.
I hate it.
(48:18):
I hate that it has to be so mentalbecause we've been stomped on.
Right?
But,
It is what it is.
It is.
That is the fact.
It is harder to navigate throughand it can be very emotional,
but you can get through it.
You can.
And I want to point out too thatlike VBAC isn't right for everybody.
Like we were talking about that before.
(48:39):
Like my best friend, she had no desireto ever VBAC or even explore the
idea of VBAC, which is totally okay.
And I think that let the VBAC link.
What we try to do is educateon both sides so people...
know their options on both sides andcan make the best choice for them.
So it is spiritual, it's emotional, it'sphysical, there's such this journey and
(49:02):
in the end you have to dial in to whatyou, you as an individual need for your
birth, for your life, for whatever.
What is your body saying?
What is your mind saying?
What is your heart saying?
Jen & Sarah [48:46]
I love that Megan.
And I feel like that's the premiseof our podcast is to find the best
birth for you, what that looks like.
(49:23):
And you were a great example of showinghow each birth was a little bit better.
Your second cesarean wasbetter than your first.
And I think that's the goal is just to getto a place where you are happy with that
birth and you've done all that you can do.
You've got the education, youhave backup plans and just the
support you need to continue.
Meagan [49:10]
Yeah, a lot of people ask mewhat my goal as a doula is.
(49:45):
And, you know, I always just tell peopleto help people have the best experience
that they can have no matter the outcome.
No matter the outcome.
Even if it's a Cesarean.
Even if it's an assisted delivery.
Whatever that outcome is, we wantto try to help that be the best
outcome for the best experiencefor them no matter the outcome.
(50:08):
Jen & Sarah [49:37]
Megan, thank you so much.
You are an inspiration.
I'm so grateful for the work thatyou're doing and I hope that our
listeners can find all of the resources,the education, the services that
you're providing at the VBAC link.
We will have some links in our shownotes that will lead people to you.
Are there any other resourcesor tips that you want to share
(50:30):
with us before we close today?
Meagan [49:41]
No.
yeah, so resources, I would say we haveactually a private community on Facebook
that I think is such an amazing place tobe because it's where a whole bunch of
like -minded people who are also lookingto see what the best option for them is.
So you can find out the VBAClink community on Facebook.
(50:50):
If you don't answer all thequestions, you don't get in.
Just saying.
there's, we just will not tolerateanybody that doesn't accept all the rules.
and you know,
My biggest thing is I wantto tell people that you can.
So there are a lot of people thatsay you can't do this, you can't do
(51:11):
that, you shouldn't do this, whatever.
Or I will let you, I will let you do this.
If you don't want, you know, if youdon't want to do something, don't do it.
Like you can do what is best for you.
Stand up for yourself.
You deserve it.
No matter what that is.
Jen & Sarah [50:58]
Thank you, Megan.
Well, before we close our podcast, haveHaley, who is from our mom squad and we
(51:35):
just have a secret that she is wantingto share and she says, while birth plans
are awesome, be prepared for anything.
Just like we touched on in the interview.
She had a high risk pregnancy, so shewas in and out of appointments, unsure
if she would have the baby that day orif they could wait one more week, but
she was prepared for anything and that.
it wouldn't go according to plan.
But like you said, as long as youhave those resources, as long as you
(51:57):
have thought through the things andgot the education, it'll be okay.
Okay.
Meagan [51:31]
Yeah, I love that she said that.
That really is, be prepared for anything.
Jen & Sarah [51:37]
Megan, thank you so much for joiningus on the Best Birth Podcast.
Meagan [51:41]
Thank you.
Jen & Sarah [51:43]
Thank you.
Thanks for joining us on today's episode.
(52:18):
We hope you've been elevated andinspired by this week's expert.
Subscribe today so you never missan episode and please share our
podcast or post on your socialmedia so that other moms and dads
to be can also have the best birth.
Please note that the informationprovided is based on the expert's
insights and personal experience.
(52:38):
It is not intended as medical guidance.
Please seek the advice of yourmedical provider as it applies
to your specific condition.
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