August 31, 2024 • 45 mins
In this conversation, Jen and Sarah discuss postpartum depression and anxiety in both men and women with Braxton Dutson, LCSW. They highlight the importance of recognizing and addressing postpartum mental health issues in men, as well as the impact of a partner's mental health on the other partner. They also provide insights into how partners can offer support and seek professional help. The conversation then shifts to the topic of sexual intimacy after childbirth, with a focus on communication, exploration, and acceptance of body changes. The importance of self-care and seeking support is emphasized throughout the conversation.
CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction 01:28 Postpartum Depression and Anxiety in Men and Women 15:25 Exploring Sexual Intimacy after Childbirth 36:33 Preparing for the Postpartum Period: Communication, Exploration, and Support
RESOURCES BOOK - Silent Souls Weeping by Jane Clayson Johnson Quote - "Healing from depression is not a linear process; it is a journey with ups and downs, victories and setbacks. It requires patience, persistence, and, most importantly, self-compassion."
Frida Mom Postpartum Recovery Kit Sitz Bath Soak Milk Bath Soak
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
It's the Best Birth Podcast, wherewe interview experts that elevate
you as you prepare your heartand mind to have the best birth.
Each episode will interviewprofessionals so you are prepared
for pregnancy, birth, and postpartum.
Our experts will build your confidenceand empower you to trust your
intuition throughout your pregnancy.
This audio is takenfrom videos on YouTube.
(00:27):
Watch the entire episodes onYouTube at Birth Made Mindful.
Jen & Sarah [00:01]
Welcome to The Best Birth podcast.
We are excited to have our guesthere today to talk all about
postpartum depression as it appliesfor men and women after birth.
And we have Jen to introduce us.
Yes.
Thank you Braxton for coming.
(00:47):
Braxton Dutson is an LCSW and certifiedsex therapist through ASECT and supervises
therapists seeking ASECT certification.
Braxton is the owner of TigrisConsulting, providing consult.
consultation, supervision, andtraining to clinicians and groups
seeking to improve their workwith clients in the sexual health.
(01:07):
He is a full -time clinician at TheHealing Group in Salt Lake City, Utah.
Braxton also provides mental healthcounseling to teenagers with IEPs
at a local high school in Utah.
Clients primarily seek him for issuespertaining to feeling out of control
with their sexual behaviors, distressin a relationship, sexual education,
and sexual runs a free online postpartumfather's group every second Wednesday
(01:31):
of the month called The Man Cave.
He hosts the popular sexual healthpodcast called Birds and the Bees,
which provides education for clinicians,couples, and parents about sexual health.
He frequently present presents toprofessionals and parents about
sexual health and relationships.
Thank you.
So good to have you.
Thanks for having me.
This is fun to be on the,on the show with y 'all.
Yeah.
So we'll just start out.
(01:52):
How is postpartum affecting men?
I don't feel like I've ever.
Consider that.
Right?
It's, it's, we often start thinkingof baby when it comes to birth.
We think of baby, we think of momand the majority of the support has
typically been formed for the creationof the baby, which makes a lot of sense.
And what we're finding is that mentypically start to develop or can
(02:13):
develop postpartum depression, postpartumanxiety, especially if they've dealt
with anxiety or depression beforehand.
But we're looking at roughly onein 10 men will develop a form of
postpartum depression or anxiety.
and they're 50 % more likely ifmom is experiencing any of those
postpartum symptoms as well.
So does that then have bothpartnerships experiencing mood
(02:37):
disorders after the baby's there?
Yeah.
How are you helping yourclients to overcome that?
So one of the ways that I helpfirst getting guys into a group is
super, super difficult, which is abig reason I call it the man cave.
We call the man cave because, I,
focus on the group differently thanmore of a, tell me about your feelings
(02:58):
and how things are going, becausethat doesn't flow very well with guys.
So oftentimes, in fact, I word it thisway, that we are getting together to
try and build our portfolio of supportto mom, baby, and ourselves as well.
And the majority of the men that Iwork with often want to support their
partners, and so they're willing to givethemselves support to be able to bolster
(03:22):
the support they give to their family.
And
how can a partner offer support?
That's a really good question, especiallydepending on what symptoms are going on.
So if we're going to talk about postpartumanxiety, oftentimes, depending on anxiety
and the intensity of it, I mean, we thinkof a new mom and she's stressed about
(03:43):
what time feeding needs to be and ifbaby's going to go down and if they don't
go down, then what if this and what ifthat and cleanliness and there could be a
lot of things that anxiety will pick at.
and start identifying as a thingthat they have to focus on.
And so if a partner is watchingtheir spouse going, she going crazy,
what am I supposed to do here?
(04:03):
I encourage men to start educatingthemselves about postpartum
depression, postpartum anxiety,whatever you're starting to see.
Get in and get professional help.
You don't need to be the only personthat has to have all the answers,
especially in a space where...
It's brand new, this may be your firstbaby, it could be your fifth, and all
of a sudden this new mom has shown upand it's never been this way because
(04:25):
with the other babies that you've had.
So get some professional support, getinto a doctor, get into a therapist
that specializes in postpartum anxiety.
And then from there, there'sgroups you can get a part of and
then getting more information frombooks or other like Instagram.
There's a lot of influencersthat are really helpful when
it comes to postpartum support.
(04:47):
That way you can start addressinginstead of walking into a room
and being like, stop havinganxiety, because that doesn't work.
Being able to be there as asupport, go, I know that you're
feeling stressed about this.
Let's take some levelsand maybe go take a break.
Remember your therapist said, let's makesure you're getting something to eat.
Maybe when was the lasttime that you took a nap?
There's some of these things thatyou can help as a partner to walk
(05:09):
your spouse through or your partnerthrough to be able to start.
cutting them off or cutting off thethings that add to the anxiety such
as less sleep, not eating, ruminatingover thoughts, not seeing the sun.
Oftentimes we can be cooped up in a house.
So those are some of the basicsthat I say, let's make sure
we're ticking the basics first.
(05:31):
And how can a partner do thatwithout offending the individual
who is suffering or struggling?
That's what we talk about in the groupmostly because they're saying, I'm
trying to support and she's saying,
stop doing what you're doing and whyyou acted so different towards me.
When a partner is a little bit moredefensive and saying, I am not, this
is a real thing for me to be afraid of.
(05:52):
Germs are, this could reallyhurt our baby, which is true.
And we have to go with what is protocol.
Kids are going to get sick.
We can't stop them from getting sick.
So being able to be empathetic towardsyour partner and go, I understand
that this is really important andI want the safety of our baby too.
Like joining with them can be helpful.
(06:12):
And that's why it's also important tohave that professional support that you
can lean on where it's not you versusyour partner, but you can turn to your
partner and say, hey, remember yourtherapist said that it is important
for you to get outside and go just fora walk, go for a walk, I've got baby.
But, and oftentimes you get apartner that's like, no, I have
to be the only one with baby.
I won't have parents watch my kids.
(06:34):
I won't do this or that or the other.
And having a professional supportwhere you could say, you're supposed
to go for a walk for 10 minutes.
Let me be with baby, they'redown, everything's gonna be fine.
Go take your 10 minute walk.
Sometimes there's that pushback,sometimes there's not, but if you continue
getting that pushback, that's whereyou can lean on that therapist or that
(06:54):
professional to be able to say, hey,we're really having a hard time here.
And that's where medicationcan be supportive and you
supporting them with medication ordepending on the severity of it.
I remember my mom would always ask myhusband how she doing is, you know,
all, what are all the signs and things.
So, what would you say?
Could you go through thedifferences between postpartum
(07:16):
anxiety and postpartum depression?
Yeah.
So the postpartum anxiety isgoing to focus more on the anxious
side of things, which is goingto be keyed up feeling on edge.
having a focused anxiety.
I think of anxiety is more of a bullyor you've got a bully in the back of
your mind saying, what if this happens?
What if.
what if and the what if word isconsistent with prove to me that this
(07:38):
is going to happen or prove to me thatthe baby safe and that is one of the
hardest things because every time youactually move to prove something there's
another uncertainty so we're constantlytrying to prove a thing that you can't
necessarily prove is baby breathing wellbaby could be breathing right now but
what in two minutes is baby breathingthen you don't know what if they stop
(08:01):
talk about a scary thing tobe going on in your mind.
And if in the back of your mind you'vegot this bully that's saying like, you
have to check, you should go check.
Could you imagine if baby diedand it's because you didn't check?
Those levels of anxiety where we'refeeling keyed up on edge for something
that could possibly go wrong.
That's where you're startingto feel some of the anxiety.
We're anticipating something is goingto happen and we're not able to reach
(08:24):
that assurance that it won't happen.
And that's stressful.
The difference in that and thedepression is depression you might find
that you have a lack of motivation.
You don't want to get up, you don'twant to shower, you're not really
worried about anything that's happening.
You just feel down, youdon't feel yourself.
(08:44):
But a big part of that you might seeas a partner or as a parent is that
they haven't showered in many days.
It's hard as a mom to showeranyways, but we're talking like.
long periods of time, not takingcare of themselves, not really
having an urge to take care ofthemselves or take care of baby.
Thoughts of suicide, thoughts of showingsigns of hopelessness or helplessness.
(09:08):
Again, there's the protocol of life isthat we experience those to some degree.
But oftentimes people saythat, this is the baby blues.
And if it's after 48 hours afteryou've had the baby and we're still
experiencing some intense feelings and.
That is not baby blues.
That is a time to be able to start askingfor extra support and getting them to see
(09:29):
somebody because they don't need to sufferthrough that depressive or anxious state.
And when we talk about the timeframe,what support do we have from our medical
system to ensure that we are gettingthe proper care after those 48 hours?
That's a good question.
Depending on your provider.
I think this is where you canadvocate for yourself prior to,
(09:52):
being able to talk with the primarycaregiver or your OB or whoever you have
decided to work with for delivery andsay, what are we going to do post care?
If I start to feel anxious or depressedor I have a history of anxiety or
depression, because some of those, wedon't know exactly what creates or makes
(10:12):
postpartum depression or anxiety, butwe do know that some factors that if you
have experienced some severe anxiety,
or depression prior to birth, thatyou're more likely to experience
postpartum anxiety or depression.
So being able to have thatconversation and set up a plan.
Now, we know plans can change,birth plans, all the things,
but being able to talk with yourprovider and say, if I start to
(10:33):
feel this way, what are we gonna do?
That is probably one of thebest ways that you can prep
yourself for the postnatal time.
But being able to, if you haven't donethat and you're finding yourself watching
this podcast saying, well, we've had,we're in the middle of it right now.
We don't have the plan.
it's great to be able to starttalking to your provider right now
(10:54):
and say, what do you recommend?
And if you find that you have a provider,it's like, Ooh, I don't, I don't know.
Ask friends, ask another provider, callup other places, start looking for, like
if you call up the healing group, you canask for, we have a packet for postpartum.
then we, it's called PMED.
perinatal mood and anxiety disorders.
So that would involve OCD,anxiety, depression, even
(11:20):
psychosis that could be in there.
If you start to notice that your partneris experiencing psychosis, that's
the time to get to the hospital ASAP.
But any of the other ones, if youwere to call the healing group or some
other organizations that specializein maternal mental health, then there
are a lot of ways that we can startsaying, hey, this is what you can
start right now while you're getting.
a new provider or trying to getsome of that medical support.
(11:43):
Finding a provider while you're in thedepths of it is such a hard experience.
Not that I speak from my own experience,but I wonder, so six weeks after your
baby's born, you kind of wrap up yourcare with your, maternal health provider.
And so that's where I feellike there's this gap in like,
(12:04):
who is actually taking care.
of me.
Now the me can be the mom,the me could be the dad.
And realizing that, we kind of haveto be our own advocates and put things
in place so that we have a safety net.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Cause it is the six week for whateverreason it's turned into, we don't see
doctors anymore and now we can have sex.
(12:26):
And it's just such a black and white.
No, that, shouldn't be that way.
It shouldn't be, you now no longerhave any medical support or care.
And it absolutely does not need tobe that now we can move directly back
into penetrative sexual experiences.
That's just too much all black and white.
So advocating for yourself, if you arefeeling nervous about it, now granted,
(12:47):
if you're experiencing postpartumanxiety, you're going to feel some
nervousness about a lot of things.
So being able to recognize howcan I set up a care plan and
see if your doctor does do that.
If not, the care can also move to thematernal or the mental side of things.
And I would highly encourage having atherapist, even if you're not seeing
(13:08):
them weekly, being able to see themevery other week, join up with groups.
We host weekly groups for moms that justhad a baby so that you can have some of
those supports with other moms that aregoing through very similar situations.
All of that we've seen reallyhelps with the overall care
(13:29):
of a mother's well -being.
And have you seen an increaseof postpartum mood disorders
in the last few years?
That's hard for me to say becausemy specialty is typically in the
sexual health side of things.
I've noticed an increase in menseeking support because that's
who I'm actually working with.
And a lot of moms don't come tosee me very often, but the guys do.
(13:51):
I get a lot of men that are like, Idon't know if I want to go see a female
therapist, but I'll go see that guy.
He seems pretty cool.
and I have seen more men bemore willing and open to, having
conversations about their mental state.
Typically it's based through mypartner's having a hard time.
And so I want to support them.
I'm seeing a positivetrend in that regard.
(14:12):
I know that a statistic of onein four women to experience a
postpartum mood disorder, butit seems like it's increased.
That would seem like it to me as well,at least from when I've gone to the
postpartum support international.
Any of the PSI trainings, they'retalking about that being the number
(14:33):
is the one that's been diagnosed.
That's also a hard number to go off of.
It's what we have, but those that goundiagnosed is pretty significant.
I can tell you many, manystories of moms and dads, but
particular moms that come in,
and have been like, I just haven'tfelt myself in three years.
So you've gone three yearsundiagnosed and suffering with
(14:56):
anxiety and postpartum depression.
And the main thing that we know is thatas you catch it or as you recognize
it and get support, you do get better.
We know that through the methods thatPSI has talked about and the therapy that
we're doing, we're finding better methodsof addressing it and moms get better.
I love that message.
It is very hopeful.
(15:17):
And I love that we've been stressinga lot the preparation because we
in this podcast are seeking to helpwomen prepare for pregnancy and birth.
And so, as you said, if you can lookat it in advance to anticipate what
could happen or, having that supportin place before you actually delivered
that, that will be more reliable thanhaving to try and find it afterwards,
(15:39):
though it can be found for sure.
So.
Well, let's move into a little bitmore about this sexual intimacy
portion as it is more your geniusand zone of where you hang out.
And so what sort of conversationsdo men have as they come to you
introducing sex after, after a baby.
the big misconception is the six weeks.
That's probably the first one isthat we're going to go see the doctor
(16:01):
and then vaginal sex can happen.
Part of this misconception is
that usually infers that we'rehaving no sexual or intimate
connection during those six weeks.
And oftentimes in pregnancy even beforethen, just depending on male partner's
experience and female partner's experienceand desire, how they're feeling,
it can vary on differing factors.
(16:23):
So when the guys come and talkto me, they're like, so how do we
get sex back on the table becauseshe's saying absolutely not and
I'm going a little stir crazy here.
And...
The first things that I talk tothem about is how are we engaging in
emotional, mental, and physical intimacy.
Now, intimacy is often coinedas this like secret term that
(16:44):
we can use instead of sex.
We're like, we were being intimate.
And we're like, well,what does intimate mean?
So intimacy is a form of all of it.
How are we feeling connection?
I like to think of intimacyas a very close connection.
And that could be physicalthrough sexual connection.
But also that can be through words,that can be through non -sexual touch,
(17:05):
that can be through sharing emotions.
All of those can be intimatewithout it being sexual.
Oftentimes they're talkingabout being sexually intimate.
So I'm saying how oftenare we holding hands?
Are we cuddling?
Are we kissing?
Are we expressing desire for connection?
Are we expressinggratitude to our partner?
(17:28):
What are we doing in the meantime?
and oftentimes it shifted towards baby.
So who's taking care of baby?
What does baby need?
What are naps?
When are we taking naps?
Then I've got to go to work and maybewe're just getting ready to start going
back to work if a female partner islooking at returning to the workforce.
So there's a lot of moving parts andthe couple starts to, that's one of the
(17:52):
first things that goes onto the wayside.
So we stop the intimate connectionand then the six weeks happen to go.
Sweet, we can get back into it.
And it's like, I don't know.
Plus if we've had any type of birthtrauma, we're not acknowledging
that healing all sorts of things.
So I start to encourage themen to understand that there's
a lot of components to this.
(18:13):
And if we have given up any ofthese other ones, it is a really
hard shift to go from we're takingcare of baby, taking care of baby.
Let's have vaginal sex.
Let's ease into this.
How can we experience like,what do you want to experience?
Do you want to experience an orgasm?
Can you do that with partner in the room?
How does that work if we're not usinggenitals or if your genitals are involved
(18:34):
and hers are not, because we're stillhealing, we need to open up other
experiences that are available and thatshe's open to and that you're open to.
So we can build connection and pleasureover what act we're engaging in.
And that connection is soimportant because as a new mom,
you feel completely touched out.
You feel completely exhausted.
(18:54):
You don't even know if it's day or night.
And so you lose that connection, butyou want to have the connection again.
what do we do and how can we get there?
Especially if we move into, there's acommon experience where a partner, and
this can be male or female, but onepartner, oftentimes being the touched out
(19:16):
one is like, I am dying for a connection.
And so I'd love to watch amovie, cuddle and just be close.
partners and like, sweet, we have touch.
Now we're moving towards sex.
And so then there's this learnedexperience that, we won't touch
then unless we're about to have sex.
So then touch stops andwe don't want to do that.
(19:37):
So if you find yourself in that,which a lot of couples probably
will find themselves beinglike, that's exactly what it is.
I am not touching my partner becauseif I do, then I'm like, great, he's
going to start thinking about sex.
I don't want to, so I'm not goingto engage in any type of touch.
Being able to clarify, I'm not looking forsexual connection or I might be able to
get into that mood, but currently rightnow I just want to feel close to you.
(19:59):
And male partner going, okay,yeah, all right, let's do this.
And while it may not move towards sex, ifI'm interested in say an orgasm, is there
a way that we can have this conversationso that it's not moving towards sex,
but there's still an option for me toexperience an orgasm if I'd like to.
Or if I'm feeling turned onbecause we are kissing or we are
touching, that it's not like,
(20:20):
Yeah, tough.
Sorry.
What options can we start integrating sothat we don't lose the touch in between?
And is that communication that is promptedby a male or a female, or is it an outside
party who's saying, Hey, both of you needto start communicating about this topic.
I think oftentimes when I see them,I'm the third party saying, Hey, we
need to start talking about this topicbecause the couples that come in to
(20:43):
see me after this are usually saying,
I don't talk, I don't touch, I don't doanything because everything I seem to
do, in fact I'll change in another roomnow because everything I'm doing sexually
excites him and then that means thatwe've got to have sex and so I'm trying
to avoid this pressure for sex and theother partner that is feeling like they
want to engage is going, she's avoidingme and so any time that we start to
(21:06):
move into that I'm dying for it and sothey start to scramble for the sexual
connection and then I have to help him
reduce that level of intensityof like, here it is, my gosh.
And I have to encourage the partnerto come in and say like, hey, let's
start practicing being able toengage in the touch that you want
to while we can also have a no.
And let's explore your agreementstogether of what is okay.
(21:29):
Because the agreements beforehand may notbe okay for the next six months to a year.
If it's like, no, we don't have, let'ssay, masturbation in our relationship.
I need to be present for all these things.
Maybe that's a different experience.
Maybe we bring that in in a partnership.
How do we start to engage that?
And that depends on values and goalsas well as some of the, the methods
(21:52):
that I can bring into the couple.
But a lot of the times I'm notthird party saying we need to find
out something different becausethis one is, is too binary.
Do most couples come to you in aplace where they're able to regain
this easily or are they beyond help?
It's not, I haven't found a couple.
postpartum that is beyond help.
(22:16):
I found couples that have gonepostpartum with four or five babies
and they haven't discussed this.
They've just gone through the method butabout every two years they're having a
baby so they restart the cycle each timeand so all of a sudden on their fourth or
fifth they're like we feel like roommates.
We've had we've been focusing on creatinga family now we're at the family space
(22:36):
but now now what now what do we do?
That I've seen.
And that's still not beyond help.
That's just a lot of thepatterns are much more ingrained.
And so it can be a little bitharder to step out and go, well,
if I start to do this with her,then I'm never going to have sex.
I'm like, okay, we haveto manage that stress.
So that could possibly be.
(22:57):
And then for the other side, well, ifI start to give in any, then if I give
him an inch, he's going to take a mile.
And being able to support her in managingthat distress, but it gets ingrained.
The earlier we catch it, the morewe can have a conversation as
we're talking about pre -baby.
The more we say like, okay, so whatis our postnatal sexual health plan?
(23:18):
Not necessarily at six weeks we're gonnado this thing, but when, depending on
what happens, how do we wanna communicateabout what you're feeling good for,
what I'm looking for, and how we canbe open to pleasure and connection.
The more we can focus pleasureand connection versus orgasm and
what sexual act we're doing, themore success we can experience and
(23:41):
the closer we can stay together.
I love that you brought in all the layers.
Like you said, it's not just the six week,okay, black and white, do we have sex?
Do we not?
There's so much that goes intothat and there's so many components
of intimacy that you brought in.
Well, let's add another layer here andhow does body image affect everything?
I know that a woman's body goes throughso many changes and what have you
(24:02):
seen about the men and their reactionto that and how they navigate that?
So it's, it's interesting female bodiesand this happens in lesbian relationships.
This happens in LGBTrelationships across the board.
So individuals that have thebaby and the body has gone
through a massive transformation.
Some find it very like I'm a mother.
(24:23):
And this is, this is a mother body.
Like, look, I've got my mother body.
And the hard part is there can be acompetition in that of like the excitement
between like, look, I'm, I've gained, Ican't remember one mom said, I gained my
stripes and she had her stretch marks andthings that she was excited about that.
and then there's the societalexperience of like, and now I
(24:45):
need a tummy tuck and now I needto get back into my, what is it?
Nine months in nine months outhas been quite the trend recently.
where you've got a body that this ismy nine month after having her with the
baby and then nine months afterwards andhere I am this fit person again and the
expectations are pretty heavy there andso then we have breast changes we have
(25:08):
stomach we have changes with the vulvachanges with vaginal experience we also
have just different parts of the bodythat has gained weight is shifted hormones
have changed so we really have a newbody that we're trying to engage with.
And for a lot of men, thischange can feel different.
Like, how do I interactwith this new body?
(25:31):
Just as much as the femalepartner is experiencing, what
am I doing with this new body?
A lot of men I've heard talkabout, like, this is cool.
Like, this is the partner that I'mwith that she went through all these
changes for this child that I have, orthese children that we have together.
And there's a massiveamount of appreciation.
And at the same time, westill live in a society where,
(25:52):
we can have this piece and then onthe other side it's kind of like, but
younger, but tighter body, but thisis what we should look like, should
you get to the gym, should you this?
And I see a lot of the pitfallsis the guys are trying to be
supportive and they start statingthings that are much more critical.
I'm
(26:15):
like, hey, well, whydon't you get to the gym?
It's like, ooh, what is our goal?
Is our goal to be ableto have physical fitness?
Is our goal to look a certain way?
If the goal is to look a certain way,we need to adjust our viewpoints.
All bodies are different and themore we can give thanks for the body
(26:36):
that we have and what's happened,I try and tell the men, she just
went through a massive body change.
You didn't have to go through that.
So we need some empathy in regards to it.
And also I need to cut out that justbecause she's had a baby does not
this whole like she's become loose andthis sex is not going to be the same.
(26:59):
If it's adjusted, okay, it's adjusted.
And at the same time, that'swhat the body's supposed to do.
It's not this like, female bodiesdidn't know they were going to
have this baby's head go through.
And now it's like, well, this is horrible,but there's changes that do happen.
And the more that we can acceptthat, the better we can be.
The difference is that someguys experience it differently
(27:20):
and some guys aren't nice.
And that's an unfortunate part.
I often try and challenge,but that's not a guarantee.
So if you find yourself with a partnerthat is not as nice, that they're
being critical, challenging that can besupportive, getting into a therapist,
helping read books about what to expectwhen you're expecting, if you will.
(27:42):
And trying to stay away from the socialnorms is going to be one of the best
ways but we're ingrained with it fromreally from childhood of what you're
supposed to be and so those are hardthose those are hard ones to change.
Well I have found that for a womanif she's able to accept her mombod it
seems easier for the male to then sayI accept it too and embrace it on both
(28:04):
sides instead of having those unrealisticexpectations that nothing is meant
to change or shift or look differentor feel different, you know,
like after your birthing years.
Yes, absolutely.
So I'm curious for the two of you,as you've had friends or you've
talked with other individuals,when someone is going through a
(28:26):
body change, what's been the mostsupportive way to accept those changes?
What have you guys seen?
I think, like you said, giving yourselfgrace and gratitude and maybe just saying
affirmations in the mirror if you needto, or maybe some bridge statements.
(28:48):
So you maybe can't get to, I love mybody, but maybe you can get to, my body
just did this thing, and taking thosestepping stones back to acceptance.
Love it.
Love it.
Anything for you.
I think it's about time, recognizingthat the time that we have invested,
into growing our baby.
And then the time that we spendraising that baby, or like you were
(29:11):
saying the nine months in nine monthsout, it's not always nine months.
And for some it's, it's three monthsand all of a sudden they look like
they have never even had a baby, butjust recognizing that in time, that
love and acceptance for our bodiescan also shift and that's okay.
(29:32):
It's okay for it to shiftone way or the other.
And, and like I said, I feel likemy own confidence can help to.
Boister the confidence of my partner.
When I say I love my body andI'm so grateful that it was
able to bear these children.
And also there's a sense of pride thatI can say, Hey, I gained 50 pounds
(29:52):
and I lost those 50 pounds and knowingthat through hard work and effort, but
not doing it because society tells meI have to, but because I feel great.
And I love the feeling of being ableto lift those weights and lift my
baby and feel like strong again.
Yes.
I love the way that you'retalking about the way you feel.
(30:14):
The more we focus on nine months in, ninemonths out, 50 pounds up, 50 pounds down,
anything where we start looking numberson an arbitrary, this is the weight
that you're pushing against the world.
It doesn't allow for muscle gain.
It doesn't allow for ability.
And oftentimes moms have felt adisability, like, okay, I can't do certain
(30:36):
things, whether because baby's not lettingme or because I went through the surgery
or if you have a C -section at all, likeyou have days where you can't sit up.
There's a form of disability that weexperience and the more that we can
focus on what you can do versus howmuch weight you've gained or how much
you see more in areas of your body.
(30:57):
the more satisfaction you can gainbecause you have control or you have
more influence over things that you cando or that you can try and focus on such
as I would like to get to a place whereI feel like I can run back to where
I was or that I can continue runningversus changing and challenging your
body to be who they were versus beingable to go what does this look like now?
(31:20):
Because you're also trying to gainthe different things in your body
and we know that if you're trying togain strength, your body needs sleep.
Babies aren't notoriousfor allowing you to sleep.
So if you aren't having that sleep,you're still working up a hill.
And the more grace you can giveyourself and go, this is wonderful.
I can pick up my baby.
This is wonderful that even after shortnights of sleep, I'm still able to, I
(31:44):
was still able to do this one thing.
Yes, the dishes aren't done andthe house seems like it's a wreck.
And I was also able totake care of my baby today.
And that is a massive win.
There's plenty of time down theroad to be able to clean a house.
If you need some extra support,get some extra support.
Those are the things wecan start looking at.
But I think the biggest problemthat we run into for men and
(32:05):
for women is that there is somuch focus on you need to do it.
And if you don't do it, no oneelse is going to and you failed.
You need to do it on your own.
You need to make sure yourwife, in fact, these guys are
like, I want to make her feel.
You can't make her feel.
You can feel a certain way.
You can advocate for yourself.
You can push for support for her andfor you, but you can't make her do that.
(32:28):
And the same thing goes for if you'refeeling down, if you're feeling
comparative and you're comparingyourself to others, find people
on social media that actually talkabout the truth, show their stretch
marks, show their imperfection,show what their house looks like.
And they're like, this is what I'mdoing and this is what today brought.
The more we can do acceptance, theless we're going to have the comparison
(32:48):
and the shame that I can't do it.
And our society has beenembracing those shifts.
Every bod is a bikini bod.
Yes.
Yes, it has been.
Yes.
I love those changes in perspective andeven verbiage as you were talking, because
I've heard so many times, I've got to getmy body back, but it's not about that.
It's about, this is thebody I'm stepping into.
This is my finding a new normal,finding what helps you feel good
(33:11):
and focusing on that instead oftrying to go back to the past.
Absolutely.
If we can focus on health.
Health is a really arbitrary experiencewhere we have certain things that
doctors can say, this is the most, thisis within a bell curve, which is great.
You're within a bell curve.
If you are beyond that, let's makesome adjustments on either side.
(33:32):
And the hard part is we startgetting, trying to get back to
bodies and going beyond babies.
We are, we are obsessed with tryingto become teenagers and young
twenties again, obsessed, right?
So you can get Botox, you canget lifts, you can get all sorts.
I mean, shoot, go down I -15.
All you have to do issee all the different.
Dude, there's a dad bodmakeover that I just saw.
(33:54):
I was like, they're shifting to us.
So there's a dad bod makeoverand there is a mommy makeover.
And there's all the things tobe able to get you back to these
late teens, early twenties.
And it's not happening.
All of us are getting older.
All of it.
We're going to get wrinkles.
We can buy all the creams.
We can do the things and it can help us.
(34:14):
age differently, for sure.
Taking care of your body, skincareis called skincare for a reason.
You're caring for it.
It's not bringing you back to the 20s,it's taking care of it which can help it
stay elastic and all the other things.
Just as much as you're going fora run or doing cardiovascular
work, it's not getting your heartback to its 20s, but it's helping
your blood vessels stay vascular.
(34:34):
So important.
That aspect of it is what I'd like to seebrought into the postpartum experience.
Of my body has changed and I don't haveto go back to what it was, but I want to
maintain and explore what looks healthy tome and what feels good to me versus having
a direct point of once I get here, I'llexperience happiness where we can say,
(34:55):
let's experience happiness now while I'mstill on this journey of making change.
Because once you get there, guess what?
You change, you change.
And your happiness won'tbe affected by a number.
No, it doesn't.
It doesn't.
Talk to bodybuilders.
Fascinating, fascinatingto talk to bodybuilders.
You see them up on stage, they're at3 % body fat to 12 % body fat, depending
(35:20):
if you're watching men or women.
And they will talk about the miserythey've gone through to get to that.
They have cut water, they've cutfoods, they've cut all sorts of things
to be able to get this physique.
That physique being oiled up,tanned up on stage is for a moment.
And immediately once theyeat, the body goes back into.
storing water, storing thesedifferent, the nutrients that you need.
(35:42):
They don't look like that all the time.
And oftentimes it can become somewhatof feeling of obsession to be able to
get back to a single point in time,to look like what it was on stage.
And to talk about that,that's what we see.
And we see these Instagram modelsand they have that point in
time that they've worked reallyhard to get to a point in time.
But as soon as they eat, as soon asthere's something else, the body shifts.
(36:04):
So even if we're saying I wantto be at a certain number on the
scale, a number on my body fat,
Good heavens, we're going to change.
We change consistently.
So we want to stay withinthe healthy side of things.
This conversation about mental health andphysical health has been so enlightening.
What else do you have to share withus about how we can prepare or how we
(36:24):
can help ourselves in the postpartum?
The, the preparing side of things becauseof the intimate side, I think that
the important part when I'm, when I'mtalking with, with men in particular,
but also the things that we talkabout for, for female experience is.
when you're going through your natalexperience, find ways that you can connect
(36:46):
that are sexual, that are also, that allowfor movement, such as, I mean, first one
of the big things you gotta experienceis you've got this stomach, right?
You've got the belly of the baby ateight months is there and present.
And so there's some disc, there's canbe some uncomfortable things such as,
well, baby's present and there couldbe a psychological experience around
(37:09):
like, how do I feel about knowingthere's another human that's here?
And maybe our typical sexualpositions are not viable.
So how do we roll with that?
That level of curiosity andexploration is what I would
encourage every couple to go through.
To get to a place where you can go,okay, so baby at eight months and
(37:29):
sexual experience at eight monthsis going to look different than,
what it looked like threeweeks postpartum to five months
postpartum to two years postpartum.
Like it's going to lookand feel different.
So trying to get back to wherewe were, let's not jump straight
back to what we think we know.
Let's start exploring with what touchfeels good now, because that changes from
(37:51):
sensations to in genitals, sensationsto breasts, sensations to just parts
of our back, experiences like thatcan be fun to start exploring touch.
I think the hard part is we often, asa society, focus on what we're gonna
do with our genitals and I try andhelp people expand that to let's hold
hands, let's kiss, let's touch, let'sfind what closeness we can experience
(38:17):
and how I can express the excitementI'm having the baby's coming and maybe
the nervousness that I'm experiencing.
I push dads to do that all the time.
Share with her what is going on,the things you're excited about,
the things you're nervous about.
The stress level that they oftenexperience is if I express nervousness,
then what if that activates anxiety?
What if that creates more stress?
(38:37):
And it could.
And at the same time, there is a levelof we can tolerate that distress and know
that just because we're worried aboutit doesn't mean it's going to happen.
The same thing can gowith intimate connection.
The more we can be explorative, seewhat feels good, see what doesn't
feel good, and not feel this rejectionof like, don't do that, that's bad.
(38:58):
It's like, all right.
I don't really like being touchedlike that as much as I used to.
Let's explore over here.
What about that?
What about this?
The more we can be curious and seek forpleasure and connection, if at the end
of a touching, connecting, verbalizingexperience, you feel connected with
your partner and you've been feelingpleasure, you are ahead of the game.
(39:20):
And if you're wanting anorgasm, great, voice that.
And we can create a space where...
That is something that we canidentify what is she open for?
What is he open for?
How can we experience what we'd liketo and don't take things as personally.
The more we can talk about it beforethe birth, the more we can have that
practice after birth when we haveanother big change that we're dealing
(39:41):
with and we're in uncharted territory.
Wow.
Well, I think that is unique to be ableto combine those two because it seems
like if you're being open and connectiveand having those discussions about your
your fears and your worries and the thingsthat are going on that will also bring
forth the mental and emotional preparationas well as help with the physical.
(40:03):
So that's amazing.
Absolutely.
Well, we love to talk aboutresources to share either books
or other experts that you havefound bring light to these topics.
Do you have any to share with us today?
Daniel Singley is in California and hehas taken on, like for dads, he's like,
postpartum father, like we need to beremembered and he gives presentations
(40:26):
with the baby Bjorn and baby in front.
Like he's, he's taken on fatherhoodand it is really cool to watch his
organization do research on postpartumwith fathers on what to, I'm trying
to remember what he puts it togetheras, but I want to say he was one of
the ones that coined the portfolio.
Like let's, let's do like investments,but we're investing with our family.
(40:49):
So.
What are you doing with your portfolioof the time you're spending with your
baby and with partner and on yourself?
And he's very much anactivist for fathers.
So Daniel Singley, and I thinkthat's like S -I -N -G -L -E
-Y, great to look him up online.
His organization inCalifornia is wonderful.
(41:12):
I think that obviously the groupthat I run, The Man Cave, it is...
blows my mind every month thatwe meet together that these
questions come up like, hey, mywife's experiencing this anxiety.
She won't let mother -in-law or my mom babysit.
We haven't been on a date in 18 months.
And like, it feels like a fight forthis, but if I say that, then this.
(41:37):
And like, we really get down into theniche to like, you really have an issue.
This is hard.
And having the otherguys step in and be like,
hey, we kind of experienced something likethat and this is what I did and this is
some of the things that happened for me.
So we're a bunch of guysbeing able to say, what, this
is, these are some options.
I know it's really hard, but this iswhat you might be able to do and have
(42:00):
your ability to ask questions eitheranonymously or in front of the group.
And we have guys connectingwith guys about being a father.
And I've got some that have teenagers,they don't have brand new babies.
So we've got like the old guard,but they're still trying to figure
out things with their spouse.
And then we've got people thatI've got a guy in there that's,
they're due in two months.
And so anywhere in between, theguys are welcome to be there.
(42:23):
And is that in person or virtual or both?
That's virtual.
So anyone, because it's agroup, it's not based on state.
I have people in California, Oregon, alot of people here in Utah, that show up.
We just, I send out an RSVP.
We get at least three people thatshow up and, or at least three people
that RSVP and then anyone else iswelcome to, to join the group because
(42:46):
we're just, we're all in it withwhat's happening in their experience.
I love that all in it together.
Yeah.
One of the books that I really foundhelpful in navigating postpartum
depression was silent souls weeping.
And I jotted down a quick quote from that.
She said, healing from depressionis not a linear process.
It's a journey with ups anddowns, victories and setbacks.
(43:08):
It requires patience, persistence, andmost importantly, self -compassion.
I love that.
I just felt like it was so prevalentto know that it's not going to be
just here on up, you know, thatthere was going to be some ups and
downs, but in time all wounds heal.
And with resources that you'reproviding and your practice and
(43:29):
this man cave, which we're all goingto jump on and, you know, get our
husbands to, to come check you out.
There is healing and resources and justso many good things that you're doing.
Thank you so much for sharingall of this with us today.
No problem.
Yes.
I love that we've been talkingabout how it's a journey.
It's not a one and done andwe're always changing and
(43:50):
just to be there on that ride.
And also we, we share everyepisode, just the mom squad secrets.
And this week it's fromAvalyn and she said,
Make sure family members pitch in to helpwith dishes, diaper changes, and laundry.
This takes emotional pressure offof a mom and lets her heal and rest.
And just, you spoke to that a lot,just getting that support and the
(44:11):
resources and the people there so thatit does free up some of the bandwidth
or the capacity to have that intimacyand to focus on your mental health.
Yeah, no problem at all.
I do want to say thatthe man cave is free.
That is something the healing groupoffers just as a social support.
we do have other groupsthat are available.
and if you're looking forlike the postpartum packet,
(44:34):
we do have postpartum packets.
if you call the front desk oremail the front desk at the healing
group, there's resources that we'dlove to provide to moms, dads.
Great.
Yeah, we will definitelylink those in the show notes.
Well, thank you Braxtonfor joining us today.
It was fabulous to hear a perspectivethat we don't often hear about with.
pregnancy and birth.
Thanks so much for having me.
I appreciate it.
(44:55):
Thanks for joining us on today's episode.
We hope you've been elevated andinspired by this week's expert.
Subscribe today so you never missan episode and please share our
podcast or post on your socialmedia so that other moms and dads
to be can also have the best birth.
Please note that the informationprovided is based on the expert's
(45:15):
insights and personal experience.
It is not intended as medical guidance.
Please seek the advice of yourmedical provider as it applies
to your specific condition.
It's the Best Birth Podcast, wherewe interview experts that elevate
you as you prepare your heartand mind to have the best birth.
Each episode will interviewprofessionals so you are prepared
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Our experts will build your confidenceand empower you to trust your
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This audio is takenfrom videos on YouTube.
(00:27):
Watch the entire episodes onYouTube at Birth Made Mindful.
Jen & Sarah [00:01]
Welcome to The Best Birth podcast.
We are excited to have our guesthere today to talk all about
postpartum depression as it appliesfor men and women after birth.
And we have Jen to introduce us.
Yes.
Thank you Braxton for coming.
(00:47):
Braxton Dutson is an LCSW and certifiedsex therapist through ASECT and supervises
therapists seeking ASECT certification.
Braxton is the owner of TigrisConsulting, providing consult.
consultation, supervision, andtraining to clinicians and groups
seeking to improve their workwith clients in the sexual health.
(01:07):
He is a full -time clinician at TheHealing Group in Salt Lake City, Utah.
Braxton also provides mental healthcounseling to teenagers with IEPs
at a local high school in Utah.
Clients primarily seek him for issuespertaining to feeling out of control
with their sexual behaviors, distressin a relationship, sexual education,
and sexual runs a free online postpartumfather's group every second Wednesday
(01:31):
of the month called The Man Cave.
He hosts the popular sexual healthpodcast called Birds and the Bees,
which provides education for clinicians,couples, and parents about sexual health.
He frequently present presents toprofessionals and parents about
sexual health and relationships.
Thank you.
So good to have you.
Thanks for having me.
This is fun to be on the,on the show with y 'all.
Yeah.
So we'll just start out.
(01:52):
How is postpartum affecting men?
I don't feel like I've ever.
Consider that.
Right?
It's, it's, we often start thinkingof baby when it comes to birth.
We think of baby, we think of momand the majority of the support has
typically been formed for the creationof the baby, which makes a lot of sense.
And what we're finding is that mentypically start to develop or can
(02:13):
develop postpartum depression, postpartumanxiety, especially if they've dealt
with anxiety or depression beforehand.
But we're looking at roughly onein 10 men will develop a form of
postpartum depression or anxiety.
and they're 50 % more likely ifmom is experiencing any of those
postpartum symptoms as well.
So does that then have bothpartnerships experiencing mood
(02:37):
disorders after the baby's there?
Yeah.
How are you helping yourclients to overcome that?
So one of the ways that I helpfirst getting guys into a group is
super, super difficult, which is abig reason I call it the man cave.
We call the man cave because, I,
focus on the group differently thanmore of a, tell me about your feelings
(02:58):
and how things are going, becausethat doesn't flow very well with guys.
So oftentimes, in fact, I word it thisway, that we are getting together to
try and build our portfolio of supportto mom, baby, and ourselves as well.
And the majority of the men that Iwork with often want to support their
partners, and so they're willing to givethemselves support to be able to bolster
(03:22):
the support they give to their family.
And
how can a partner offer support?
That's a really good question, especiallydepending on what symptoms are going on.
So if we're going to talk about postpartumanxiety, oftentimes, depending on anxiety
and the intensity of it, I mean, we thinkof a new mom and she's stressed about
(03:43):
what time feeding needs to be and ifbaby's going to go down and if they don't
go down, then what if this and what ifthat and cleanliness and there could be a
lot of things that anxiety will pick at.
and start identifying as a thingthat they have to focus on.
And so if a partner is watchingtheir spouse going, she going crazy,
what am I supposed to do here?
(04:03):
I encourage men to start educatingthemselves about postpartum
depression, postpartum anxiety,whatever you're starting to see.
Get in and get professional help.
You don't need to be the only personthat has to have all the answers,
especially in a space where...
It's brand new, this may be your firstbaby, it could be your fifth, and all
of a sudden this new mom has shown upand it's never been this way because
(04:25):
with the other babies that you've had.
So get some professional support, getinto a doctor, get into a therapist
that specializes in postpartum anxiety.
And then from there, there'sgroups you can get a part of and
then getting more information frombooks or other like Instagram.
There's a lot of influencersthat are really helpful when
it comes to postpartum support.
(04:47):
That way you can start addressinginstead of walking into a room
and being like, stop havinganxiety, because that doesn't work.
Being able to be there as asupport, go, I know that you're
feeling stressed about this.
Let's take some levelsand maybe go take a break.
Remember your therapist said, let's makesure you're getting something to eat.
Maybe when was the lasttime that you took a nap?
There's some of these things thatyou can help as a partner to walk
(05:09):
your spouse through or your partnerthrough to be able to start.
cutting them off or cutting off thethings that add to the anxiety such
as less sleep, not eating, ruminatingover thoughts, not seeing the sun.
Oftentimes we can be cooped up in a house.
So those are some of the basicsthat I say, let's make sure
we're ticking the basics first.
(05:31):
And how can a partner do thatwithout offending the individual
who is suffering or struggling?
That's what we talk about in the groupmostly because they're saying, I'm
trying to support and she's saying,
stop doing what you're doing and whyyou acted so different towards me.
When a partner is a little bit moredefensive and saying, I am not, this
is a real thing for me to be afraid of.
(05:52):
Germs are, this could reallyhurt our baby, which is true.
And we have to go with what is protocol.
Kids are going to get sick.
We can't stop them from getting sick.
So being able to be empathetic towardsyour partner and go, I understand
that this is really important andI want the safety of our baby too.
Like joining with them can be helpful.
(06:12):
And that's why it's also important tohave that professional support that you
can lean on where it's not you versusyour partner, but you can turn to your
partner and say, hey, remember yourtherapist said that it is important
for you to get outside and go just fora walk, go for a walk, I've got baby.
But, and oftentimes you get apartner that's like, no, I have
to be the only one with baby.
I won't have parents watch my kids.
(06:34):
I won't do this or that or the other.
And having a professional supportwhere you could say, you're supposed
to go for a walk for 10 minutes.
Let me be with baby, they'redown, everything's gonna be fine.
Go take your 10 minute walk.
Sometimes there's that pushback,sometimes there's not, but if you continue
getting that pushback, that's whereyou can lean on that therapist or that
(06:54):
professional to be able to say, hey,we're really having a hard time here.
And that's where medicationcan be supportive and you
supporting them with medication ordepending on the severity of it.
I remember my mom would always ask myhusband how she doing is, you know,
all, what are all the signs and things.
So, what would you say?
Could you go through thedifferences between postpartum
(07:16):
anxiety and postpartum depression?
Yeah.
So the postpartum anxiety isgoing to focus more on the anxious
side of things, which is goingto be keyed up feeling on edge.
having a focused anxiety.
I think of anxiety is more of a bullyor you've got a bully in the back of
your mind saying, what if this happens?
What if.
what if and the what if word isconsistent with prove to me that this
(07:38):
is going to happen or prove to me thatthe baby safe and that is one of the
hardest things because every time youactually move to prove something there's
another uncertainty so we're constantlytrying to prove a thing that you can't
necessarily prove is baby breathing wellbaby could be breathing right now but
what in two minutes is baby breathingthen you don't know what if they stop
(08:01):
talk about a scary thing tobe going on in your mind.
And if in the back of your mind you'vegot this bully that's saying like, you
have to check, you should go check.
Could you imagine if baby diedand it's because you didn't check?
Those levels of anxiety where we'refeeling keyed up on edge for something
that could possibly go wrong.
That's where you're startingto feel some of the anxiety.
We're anticipating something is goingto happen and we're not able to reach
(08:24):
that assurance that it won't happen.
And that's stressful.
The difference in that and thedepression is depression you might find
that you have a lack of motivation.
You don't want to get up, you don'twant to shower, you're not really
worried about anything that's happening.
You just feel down, youdon't feel yourself.
(08:44):
But a big part of that you might seeas a partner or as a parent is that
they haven't showered in many days.
It's hard as a mom to showeranyways, but we're talking like.
long periods of time, not takingcare of themselves, not really
having an urge to take care ofthemselves or take care of baby.
Thoughts of suicide, thoughts of showingsigns of hopelessness or helplessness.
(09:08):
Again, there's the protocol of life isthat we experience those to some degree.
But oftentimes people saythat, this is the baby blues.
And if it's after 48 hours afteryou've had the baby and we're still
experiencing some intense feelings and.
That is not baby blues.
That is a time to be able to start askingfor extra support and getting them to see
(09:29):
somebody because they don't need to sufferthrough that depressive or anxious state.
And when we talk about the timeframe,what support do we have from our medical
system to ensure that we are gettingthe proper care after those 48 hours?
That's a good question.
Depending on your provider.
I think this is where you canadvocate for yourself prior to,
(09:52):
being able to talk with the primarycaregiver or your OB or whoever you have
decided to work with for delivery andsay, what are we going to do post care?
If I start to feel anxious or depressedor I have a history of anxiety or
depression, because some of those, wedon't know exactly what creates or makes
(10:12):
postpartum depression or anxiety, butwe do know that some factors that if you
have experienced some severe anxiety,
or depression prior to birth, thatyou're more likely to experience
postpartum anxiety or depression.
So being able to have thatconversation and set up a plan.
Now, we know plans can change,birth plans, all the things,
but being able to talk with yourprovider and say, if I start to
(10:33):
feel this way, what are we gonna do?
That is probably one of thebest ways that you can prep
yourself for the postnatal time.
But being able to, if you haven't donethat and you're finding yourself watching
this podcast saying, well, we've had,we're in the middle of it right now.
We don't have the plan.
it's great to be able to starttalking to your provider right now
(10:54):
and say, what do you recommend?
And if you find that you have a provider,it's like, Ooh, I don't, I don't know.
Ask friends, ask another provider, callup other places, start looking for, like
if you call up the healing group, you canask for, we have a packet for postpartum.
then we, it's called PMED.
perinatal mood and anxiety disorders.
So that would involve OCD,anxiety, depression, even
(11:20):
psychosis that could be in there.
If you start to notice that your partneris experiencing psychosis, that's
the time to get to the hospital ASAP.
But any of the other ones, if youwere to call the healing group or some
other organizations that specializein maternal mental health, then there
are a lot of ways that we can startsaying, hey, this is what you can
start right now while you're getting.
a new provider or trying to getsome of that medical support.
(11:43):
Finding a provider while you're in thedepths of it is such a hard experience.
Not that I speak from my own experience,but I wonder, so six weeks after your
baby's born, you kind of wrap up yourcare with your, maternal health provider.
And so that's where I feellike there's this gap in like,
(12:04):
who is actually taking care.
of me.
Now the me can be the mom,the me could be the dad.
And realizing that, we kind of haveto be our own advocates and put things
in place so that we have a safety net.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Cause it is the six week for whateverreason it's turned into, we don't see
doctors anymore and now we can have sex.
(12:26):
And it's just such a black and white.
No, that, shouldn't be that way.
It shouldn't be, you now no longerhave any medical support or care.
And it absolutely does not need tobe that now we can move directly back
into penetrative sexual experiences.
That's just too much all black and white.
So advocating for yourself, if you arefeeling nervous about it, now granted,
(12:47):
if you're experiencing postpartumanxiety, you're going to feel some
nervousness about a lot of things.
So being able to recognize howcan I set up a care plan and
see if your doctor does do that.
If not, the care can also move to thematernal or the mental side of things.
And I would highly encourage having atherapist, even if you're not seeing
(13:08):
them weekly, being able to see themevery other week, join up with groups.
We host weekly groups for moms that justhad a baby so that you can have some of
those supports with other moms that aregoing through very similar situations.
All of that we've seen reallyhelps with the overall care
(13:29):
of a mother's well -being.
And have you seen an increaseof postpartum mood disorders
in the last few years?
That's hard for me to say becausemy specialty is typically in the
sexual health side of things.
I've noticed an increase in menseeking support because that's
who I'm actually working with.
And a lot of moms don't come tosee me very often, but the guys do.
(13:51):
I get a lot of men that are like, Idon't know if I want to go see a female
therapist, but I'll go see that guy.
He seems pretty cool.
and I have seen more men bemore willing and open to, having
conversations about their mental state.
Typically it's based through mypartner's having a hard time.
And so I want to support them.
I'm seeing a positivetrend in that regard.
(14:12):
I know that a statistic of onein four women to experience a
postpartum mood disorder, butit seems like it's increased.
That would seem like it to me as well,at least from when I've gone to the
postpartum support international.
Any of the PSI trainings, they'retalking about that being the number
(14:33):
is the one that's been diagnosed.
That's also a hard number to go off of.
It's what we have, but those that goundiagnosed is pretty significant.
I can tell you many, manystories of moms and dads, but
particular moms that come in,
and have been like, I just haven'tfelt myself in three years.
So you've gone three yearsundiagnosed and suffering with
(14:56):
anxiety and postpartum depression.
And the main thing that we know is thatas you catch it or as you recognize
it and get support, you do get better.
We know that through the methods thatPSI has talked about and the therapy that
we're doing, we're finding better methodsof addressing it and moms get better.
I love that message.
It is very hopeful.
(15:17):
And I love that we've been stressinga lot the preparation because we
in this podcast are seeking to helpwomen prepare for pregnancy and birth.
And so, as you said, if you can lookat it in advance to anticipate what
could happen or, having that supportin place before you actually delivered
that, that will be more reliable thanhaving to try and find it afterwards,
(15:39):
though it can be found for sure.
So.
Well, let's move into a little bitmore about this sexual intimacy
portion as it is more your geniusand zone of where you hang out.
And so what sort of conversationsdo men have as they come to you
introducing sex after, after a baby.
the big misconception is the six weeks.
That's probably the first one isthat we're going to go see the doctor
(16:01):
and then vaginal sex can happen.
Part of this misconception is
that usually infers that we'rehaving no sexual or intimate
connection during those six weeks.
And oftentimes in pregnancy even beforethen, just depending on male partner's
experience and female partner's experienceand desire, how they're feeling,
it can vary on differing factors.
(16:23):
So when the guys come and talkto me, they're like, so how do we
get sex back on the table becauseshe's saying absolutely not and
I'm going a little stir crazy here.
And...
The first things that I talk tothem about is how are we engaging in
emotional, mental, and physical intimacy.
Now, intimacy is often coinedas this like secret term that
(16:44):
we can use instead of sex.
We're like, we were being intimate.
And we're like, well,what does intimate mean?
So intimacy is a form of all of it.
How are we feeling connection?
I like to think of intimacyas a very close connection.
And that could be physicalthrough sexual connection.
But also that can be through words,that can be through non -sexual touch,
(17:05):
that can be through sharing emotions.
All of those can be intimatewithout it being sexual.
Oftentimes they're talkingabout being sexually intimate.
So I'm saying how oftenare we holding hands?
Are we cuddling?
Are we kissing?
Are we expressing desire for connection?
Are we expressinggratitude to our partner?
(17:28):
What are we doing in the meantime?
and oftentimes it shifted towards baby.
So who's taking care of baby?
What does baby need?
What are naps?
When are we taking naps?
Then I've got to go to work and maybewe're just getting ready to start going
back to work if a female partner islooking at returning to the workforce.
So there's a lot of moving parts andthe couple starts to, that's one of the
(17:52):
first things that goes onto the wayside.
So we stop the intimate connectionand then the six weeks happen to go.
Sweet, we can get back into it.
And it's like, I don't know.
Plus if we've had any type of birthtrauma, we're not acknowledging
that healing all sorts of things.
So I start to encourage themen to understand that there's
a lot of components to this.
(18:13):
And if we have given up any ofthese other ones, it is a really
hard shift to go from we're takingcare of baby, taking care of baby.
Let's have vaginal sex.
Let's ease into this.
How can we experience like,what do you want to experience?
Do you want to experience an orgasm?
Can you do that with partner in the room?
How does that work if we're not usinggenitals or if your genitals are involved
(18:34):
and hers are not, because we're stillhealing, we need to open up other
experiences that are available and thatshe's open to and that you're open to.
So we can build connection and pleasureover what act we're engaging in.
And that connection is soimportant because as a new mom,
you feel completely touched out.
You feel completely exhausted.
(18:54):
You don't even know if it's day or night.
And so you lose that connection, butyou want to have the connection again.
what do we do and how can we get there?
Especially if we move into, there's acommon experience where a partner, and
this can be male or female, but onepartner, oftentimes being the touched out
(19:16):
one is like, I am dying for a connection.
And so I'd love to watch amovie, cuddle and just be close.
partners and like, sweet, we have touch.
Now we're moving towards sex.
And so then there's this learnedexperience that, we won't touch
then unless we're about to have sex.
So then touch stops andwe don't want to do that.
(19:37):
So if you find yourself in that,which a lot of couples probably
will find themselves beinglike, that's exactly what it is.
I am not touching my partner becauseif I do, then I'm like, great, he's
going to start thinking about sex.
I don't want to, so I'm not goingto engage in any type of touch.
Being able to clarify, I'm not looking forsexual connection or I might be able to
get into that mood, but currently rightnow I just want to feel close to you.
(19:59):
And male partner going, okay,yeah, all right, let's do this.
And while it may not move towards sex, ifI'm interested in say an orgasm, is there
a way that we can have this conversationso that it's not moving towards sex,
but there's still an option for me toexperience an orgasm if I'd like to.
Or if I'm feeling turned onbecause we are kissing or we are
touching, that it's not like,
(20:20):
Yeah, tough.
Sorry.
What options can we start integrating sothat we don't lose the touch in between?
And is that communication that is promptedby a male or a female, or is it an outside
party who's saying, Hey, both of you needto start communicating about this topic.
I think oftentimes when I see them,I'm the third party saying, Hey, we
need to start talking about this topicbecause the couples that come in to
(20:43):
see me after this are usually saying,
I don't talk, I don't touch, I don't doanything because everything I seem to
do, in fact I'll change in another roomnow because everything I'm doing sexually
excites him and then that means thatwe've got to have sex and so I'm trying
to avoid this pressure for sex and theother partner that is feeling like they
want to engage is going, she's avoidingme and so any time that we start to
(21:06):
move into that I'm dying for it and sothey start to scramble for the sexual
connection and then I have to help him
reduce that level of intensityof like, here it is, my gosh.
And I have to encourage the partnerto come in and say like, hey, let's
start practicing being able toengage in the touch that you want
to while we can also have a no.
And let's explore your agreementstogether of what is okay.
(21:29):
Because the agreements beforehand may notbe okay for the next six months to a year.
If it's like, no, we don't have, let'ssay, masturbation in our relationship.
I need to be present for all these things.
Maybe that's a different experience.
Maybe we bring that in in a partnership.
How do we start to engage that?
And that depends on values and goalsas well as some of the, the methods
(21:52):
that I can bring into the couple.
But a lot of the times I'm notthird party saying we need to find
out something different becausethis one is, is too binary.
Do most couples come to you in aplace where they're able to regain
this easily or are they beyond help?
It's not, I haven't found a couple.
postpartum that is beyond help.
(22:16):
I found couples that have gonepostpartum with four or five babies
and they haven't discussed this.
They've just gone through the method butabout every two years they're having a
baby so they restart the cycle each timeand so all of a sudden on their fourth or
fifth they're like we feel like roommates.
We've had we've been focusing on creatinga family now we're at the family space
(22:36):
but now now what now what do we do?
That I've seen.
And that's still not beyond help.
That's just a lot of thepatterns are much more ingrained.
And so it can be a little bitharder to step out and go, well,
if I start to do this with her,then I'm never going to have sex.
I'm like, okay, we haveto manage that stress.
So that could possibly be.
(22:57):
And then for the other side, well, ifI start to give in any, then if I give
him an inch, he's going to take a mile.
And being able to support her in managingthat distress, but it gets ingrained.
The earlier we catch it, the morewe can have a conversation as
we're talking about pre -baby.
The more we say like, okay, so whatis our postnatal sexual health plan?
(23:18):
Not necessarily at six weeks we're gonnado this thing, but when, depending on
what happens, how do we wanna communicateabout what you're feeling good for,
what I'm looking for, and how we canbe open to pleasure and connection.
The more we can focus pleasureand connection versus orgasm and
what sexual act we're doing, themore success we can experience and
(23:41):
the closer we can stay together.
I love that you brought in all the layers.
Like you said, it's not just the six week,okay, black and white, do we have sex?
Do we not?
There's so much that goes intothat and there's so many components
of intimacy that you brought in.
Well, let's add another layer here andhow does body image affect everything?
I know that a woman's body goes throughso many changes and what have you
(24:02):
seen about the men and their reactionto that and how they navigate that?
So it's, it's interesting female bodiesand this happens in lesbian relationships.
This happens in LGBTrelationships across the board.
So individuals that have thebaby and the body has gone
through a massive transformation.
Some find it very like I'm a mother.
(24:23):
And this is, this is a mother body.
Like, look, I've got my mother body.
And the hard part is there can be acompetition in that of like the excitement
between like, look, I'm, I've gained, Ican't remember one mom said, I gained my
stripes and she had her stretch marks andthings that she was excited about that.
and then there's the societalexperience of like, and now I
(24:45):
need a tummy tuck and now I needto get back into my, what is it?
Nine months in nine months outhas been quite the trend recently.
where you've got a body that this ismy nine month after having her with the
baby and then nine months afterwards andhere I am this fit person again and the
expectations are pretty heavy there andso then we have breast changes we have
(25:08):
stomach we have changes with the vulvachanges with vaginal experience we also
have just different parts of the bodythat has gained weight is shifted hormones
have changed so we really have a newbody that we're trying to engage with.
And for a lot of men, thischange can feel different.
Like, how do I interactwith this new body?
(25:31):
Just as much as the femalepartner is experiencing, what
am I doing with this new body?
A lot of men I've heard talkabout, like, this is cool.
Like, this is the partner that I'mwith that she went through all these
changes for this child that I have, orthese children that we have together.
And there's a massiveamount of appreciation.
And at the same time, westill live in a society where,
(25:52):
we can have this piece and then onthe other side it's kind of like, but
younger, but tighter body, but thisis what we should look like, should
you get to the gym, should you this?
And I see a lot of the pitfallsis the guys are trying to be
supportive and they start statingthings that are much more critical.
I'm
(26:15):
like, hey, well, whydon't you get to the gym?
It's like, ooh, what is our goal?
Is our goal to be ableto have physical fitness?
Is our goal to look a certain way?
If the goal is to look a certain way,we need to adjust our viewpoints.
All bodies are different and themore we can give thanks for the body
(26:36):
that we have and what's happened,I try and tell the men, she just
went through a massive body change.
You didn't have to go through that.
So we need some empathy in regards to it.
And also I need to cut out that justbecause she's had a baby does not
this whole like she's become loose andthis sex is not going to be the same.
(26:59):
If it's adjusted, okay, it's adjusted.
And at the same time, that'swhat the body's supposed to do.
It's not this like, female bodiesdidn't know they were going to
have this baby's head go through.
And now it's like, well, this is horrible,but there's changes that do happen.
And the more that we can acceptthat, the better we can be.
The difference is that someguys experience it differently
(27:20):
and some guys aren't nice.
And that's an unfortunate part.
I often try and challenge,but that's not a guarantee.
So if you find yourself with a partnerthat is not as nice, that they're
being critical, challenging that can besupportive, getting into a therapist,
helping read books about what to expectwhen you're expecting, if you will.
(27:42):
And trying to stay away from the socialnorms is going to be one of the best
ways but we're ingrained with it fromreally from childhood of what you're
supposed to be and so those are hardthose those are hard ones to change.
Well I have found that for a womanif she's able to accept her mombod it
seems easier for the male to then sayI accept it too and embrace it on both
(28:04):
sides instead of having those unrealisticexpectations that nothing is meant
to change or shift or look differentor feel different, you know,
like after your birthing years.
Yes, absolutely.
So I'm curious for the two of you,as you've had friends or you've
talked with other individuals,when someone is going through a
(28:26):
body change, what's been the mostsupportive way to accept those changes?
What have you guys seen?
I think, like you said, giving yourselfgrace and gratitude and maybe just saying
affirmations in the mirror if you needto, or maybe some bridge statements.
(28:48):
So you maybe can't get to, I love mybody, but maybe you can get to, my body
just did this thing, and taking thosestepping stones back to acceptance.
Love it.
Love it.
Anything for you.
I think it's about time, recognizingthat the time that we have invested,
into growing our baby.
And then the time that we spendraising that baby, or like you were
(29:11):
saying the nine months in nine monthsout, it's not always nine months.
And for some it's, it's three monthsand all of a sudden they look like
they have never even had a baby, butjust recognizing that in time, that
love and acceptance for our bodiescan also shift and that's okay.
(29:32):
It's okay for it to shiftone way or the other.
And, and like I said, I feel likemy own confidence can help to.
Boister the confidence of my partner.
When I say I love my body andI'm so grateful that it was
able to bear these children.
And also there's a sense of pride thatI can say, Hey, I gained 50 pounds
(29:52):
and I lost those 50 pounds and knowingthat through hard work and effort, but
not doing it because society tells meI have to, but because I feel great.
And I love the feeling of being ableto lift those weights and lift my
baby and feel like strong again.
Yes.
I love the way that you'retalking about the way you feel.
(30:14):
The more we focus on nine months in, ninemonths out, 50 pounds up, 50 pounds down,
anything where we start looking numberson an arbitrary, this is the weight
that you're pushing against the world.
It doesn't allow for muscle gain.
It doesn't allow for ability.
And oftentimes moms have felt adisability, like, okay, I can't do certain
(30:36):
things, whether because baby's not lettingme or because I went through the surgery
or if you have a C -section at all, likeyou have days where you can't sit up.
There's a form of disability that weexperience and the more that we can
focus on what you can do versus howmuch weight you've gained or how much
you see more in areas of your body.
(30:57):
the more satisfaction you can gainbecause you have control or you have
more influence over things that you cando or that you can try and focus on such
as I would like to get to a place whereI feel like I can run back to where
I was or that I can continue runningversus changing and challenging your
body to be who they were versus beingable to go what does this look like now?
(31:20):
Because you're also trying to gainthe different things in your body
and we know that if you're trying togain strength, your body needs sleep.
Babies aren't notoriousfor allowing you to sleep.
So if you aren't having that sleep,you're still working up a hill.
And the more grace you can giveyourself and go, this is wonderful.
I can pick up my baby.
This is wonderful that even after shortnights of sleep, I'm still able to, I
(31:44):
was still able to do this one thing.
Yes, the dishes aren't done andthe house seems like it's a wreck.
And I was also able totake care of my baby today.
And that is a massive win.
There's plenty of time down theroad to be able to clean a house.
If you need some extra support,get some extra support.
Those are the things wecan start looking at.
But I think the biggest problemthat we run into for men and
(32:05):
for women is that there is somuch focus on you need to do it.
And if you don't do it, no oneelse is going to and you failed.
You need to do it on your own.
You need to make sure yourwife, in fact, these guys are
like, I want to make her feel.
You can't make her feel.
You can feel a certain way.
You can advocate for yourself.
You can push for support for her andfor you, but you can't make her do that.
(32:28):
And the same thing goes for if you'refeeling down, if you're feeling
comparative and you're comparingyourself to others, find people
on social media that actually talkabout the truth, show their stretch
marks, show their imperfection,show what their house looks like.
And they're like, this is what I'mdoing and this is what today brought.
The more we can do acceptance, theless we're going to have the comparison
(32:48):
and the shame that I can't do it.
And our society has beenembracing those shifts.
Every bod is a bikini bod.
Yes.
Yes, it has been.
Yes.
I love those changes in perspective andeven verbiage as you were talking, because
I've heard so many times, I've got to getmy body back, but it's not about that.
It's about, this is thebody I'm stepping into.
This is my finding a new normal,finding what helps you feel good
(33:11):
and focusing on that instead oftrying to go back to the past.
Absolutely.
If we can focus on health.
Health is a really arbitrary experiencewhere we have certain things that
doctors can say, this is the most, thisis within a bell curve, which is great.
You're within a bell curve.
If you are beyond that, let's makesome adjustments on either side.
(33:32):
And the hard part is we startgetting, trying to get back to
bodies and going beyond babies.
We are, we are obsessed with tryingto become teenagers and young
twenties again, obsessed, right?
So you can get Botox, you canget lifts, you can get all sorts.
I mean, shoot, go down I -15.
All you have to do issee all the different.
Dude, there's a dad bodmakeover that I just saw.
(33:54):
I was like, they're shifting to us.
So there's a dad bod makeoverand there is a mommy makeover.
And there's all the things tobe able to get you back to these
late teens, early twenties.
And it's not happening.
All of us are getting older.
All of it.
We're going to get wrinkles.
We can buy all the creams.
We can do the things and it can help us.
(34:14):
age differently, for sure.
Taking care of your body, skincareis called skincare for a reason.
You're caring for it.
It's not bringing you back to the 20s,it's taking care of it which can help it
stay elastic and all the other things.
Just as much as you're going fora run or doing cardiovascular
work, it's not getting your heartback to its 20s, but it's helping
your blood vessels stay vascular.
(34:34):
So important.
That aspect of it is what I'd like to seebrought into the postpartum experience.
Of my body has changed and I don't haveto go back to what it was, but I want to
maintain and explore what looks healthy tome and what feels good to me versus having
a direct point of once I get here, I'llexperience happiness where we can say,
(34:55):
let's experience happiness now while I'mstill on this journey of making change.
Because once you get there, guess what?
You change, you change.
And your happiness won'tbe affected by a number.
No, it doesn't.
It doesn't.
Talk to bodybuilders.
Fascinating, fascinatingto talk to bodybuilders.
You see them up on stage, they're at3 % body fat to 12 % body fat, depending
(35:20):
if you're watching men or women.
And they will talk about the miserythey've gone through to get to that.
They have cut water, they've cutfoods, they've cut all sorts of things
to be able to get this physique.
That physique being oiled up,tanned up on stage is for a moment.
And immediately once theyeat, the body goes back into.
storing water, storing thesedifferent, the nutrients that you need.
(35:42):
They don't look like that all the time.
And oftentimes it can become somewhatof feeling of obsession to be able to
get back to a single point in time,to look like what it was on stage.
And to talk about that,that's what we see.
And we see these Instagram modelsand they have that point in
time that they've worked reallyhard to get to a point in time.
But as soon as they eat, as soon asthere's something else, the body shifts.
(36:04):
So even if we're saying I wantto be at a certain number on the
scale, a number on my body fat,
Good heavens, we're going to change.
We change consistently.
So we want to stay withinthe healthy side of things.
This conversation about mental health andphysical health has been so enlightening.
What else do you have to share withus about how we can prepare or how we
(36:24):
can help ourselves in the postpartum?
The, the preparing side of things becauseof the intimate side, I think that
the important part when I'm, when I'mtalking with, with men in particular,
but also the things that we talkabout for, for female experience is.
when you're going through your natalexperience, find ways that you can connect
(36:46):
that are sexual, that are also, that allowfor movement, such as, I mean, first one
of the big things you gotta experienceis you've got this stomach, right?
You've got the belly of the baby ateight months is there and present.
And so there's some disc, there's canbe some uncomfortable things such as,
well, baby's present and there couldbe a psychological experience around
(37:09):
like, how do I feel about knowingthere's another human that's here?
And maybe our typical sexualpositions are not viable.
So how do we roll with that?
That level of curiosity andexploration is what I would
encourage every couple to go through.
To get to a place where you can go,okay, so baby at eight months and
(37:29):
sexual experience at eight monthsis going to look different than,
what it looked like threeweeks postpartum to five months
postpartum to two years postpartum.
Like it's going to lookand feel different.
So trying to get back to wherewe were, let's not jump straight
back to what we think we know.
Let's start exploring with what touchfeels good now, because that changes from
(37:51):
sensations to in genitals, sensationsto breasts, sensations to just parts
of our back, experiences like thatcan be fun to start exploring touch.
I think the hard part is we often, asa society, focus on what we're gonna
do with our genitals and I try andhelp people expand that to let's hold
hands, let's kiss, let's touch, let'sfind what closeness we can experience
(38:17):
and how I can express the excitementI'm having the baby's coming and maybe
the nervousness that I'm experiencing.
I push dads to do that all the time.
Share with her what is going on,the things you're excited about,
the things you're nervous about.
The stress level that they oftenexperience is if I express nervousness,
then what if that activates anxiety?
What if that creates more stress?
(38:37):
And it could.
And at the same time, there is a levelof we can tolerate that distress and know
that just because we're worried aboutit doesn't mean it's going to happen.
The same thing can gowith intimate connection.
The more we can be explorative, seewhat feels good, see what doesn't
feel good, and not feel this rejectionof like, don't do that, that's bad.
(38:58):
It's like, all right.
I don't really like being touchedlike that as much as I used to.
Let's explore over here.
What about that?
What about this?
The more we can be curious and seek forpleasure and connection, if at the end
of a touching, connecting, verbalizingexperience, you feel connected with
your partner and you've been feelingpleasure, you are ahead of the game.
(39:20):
And if you're wanting anorgasm, great, voice that.
And we can create a space where...
That is something that we canidentify what is she open for?
What is he open for?
How can we experience what we'd liketo and don't take things as personally.
The more we can talk about it beforethe birth, the more we can have that
practice after birth when we haveanother big change that we're dealing
(39:41):
with and we're in uncharted territory.
Wow.
Well, I think that is unique to be ableto combine those two because it seems
like if you're being open and connectiveand having those discussions about your
your fears and your worries and the thingsthat are going on that will also bring
forth the mental and emotional preparationas well as help with the physical.
(40:03):
So that's amazing.
Absolutely.
Well, we love to talk aboutresources to share either books
or other experts that you havefound bring light to these topics.
Do you have any to share with us today?
Daniel Singley is in California and hehas taken on, like for dads, he's like,
postpartum father, like we need to beremembered and he gives presentations
(40:26):
with the baby Bjorn and baby in front.
Like he's, he's taken on fatherhoodand it is really cool to watch his
organization do research on postpartumwith fathers on what to, I'm trying
to remember what he puts it togetheras, but I want to say he was one of
the ones that coined the portfolio.
Like let's, let's do like investments,but we're investing with our family.
(40:49):
So.
What are you doing with your portfolioof the time you're spending with your
baby and with partner and on yourself?
And he's very much anactivist for fathers.
So Daniel Singley, and I thinkthat's like S -I -N -G -L -E
-Y, great to look him up online.
His organization inCalifornia is wonderful.
(41:12):
I think that obviously the groupthat I run, The Man Cave, it is...
blows my mind every month thatwe meet together that these
questions come up like, hey, mywife's experiencing this anxiety.
She won't let mother -in-law or my mom babysit.
We haven't been on a date in 18 months.
And like, it feels like a fight forthis, but if I say that, then this.
(41:37):
And like, we really get down into theniche to like, you really have an issue.
This is hard.
And having the otherguys step in and be like,
hey, we kind of experienced something likethat and this is what I did and this is
some of the things that happened for me.
So we're a bunch of guysbeing able to say, what, this
is, these are some options.
I know it's really hard, but this iswhat you might be able to do and have
(42:00):
your ability to ask questions eitheranonymously or in front of the group.
And we have guys connectingwith guys about being a father.
And I've got some that have teenagers,they don't have brand new babies.
So we've got like the old guard,but they're still trying to figure
out things with their spouse.
And then we've got people thatI've got a guy in there that's,
they're due in two months.
And so anywhere in between, theguys are welcome to be there.
(42:23):
And is that in person or virtual or both?
That's virtual.
So anyone, because it's agroup, it's not based on state.
I have people in California, Oregon, alot of people here in Utah, that show up.
We just, I send out an RSVP.
We get at least three people thatshow up and, or at least three people
that RSVP and then anyone else iswelcome to, to join the group because
(42:46):
we're just, we're all in it withwhat's happening in their experience.
I love that all in it together.
Yeah.
One of the books that I really foundhelpful in navigating postpartum
depression was silent souls weeping.
And I jotted down a quick quote from that.
She said, healing from depressionis not a linear process.
It's a journey with ups anddowns, victories and setbacks.
(43:08):
It requires patience, persistence, andmost importantly, self -compassion.
I love that.
I just felt like it was so prevalentto know that it's not going to be
just here on up, you know, thatthere was going to be some ups and
downs, but in time all wounds heal.
And with resources that you'reproviding and your practice and
(43:29):
this man cave, which we're all goingto jump on and, you know, get our
husbands to, to come check you out.
There is healing and resources and justso many good things that you're doing.
Thank you so much for sharingall of this with us today.
No problem.
Yes.
I love that we've been talkingabout how it's a journey.
It's not a one and done andwe're always changing and
(43:50):
just to be there on that ride.
And also we, we share everyepisode, just the mom squad secrets.
And this week it's fromAvalyn and she said,
Make sure family members pitch in to helpwith dishes, diaper changes, and laundry.
This takes emotional pressure offof a mom and lets her heal and rest.
And just, you spoke to that a lot,just getting that support and the
(44:11):
resources and the people there so thatit does free up some of the bandwidth
or the capacity to have that intimacyand to focus on your mental health.
Yeah, no problem at all.
I do want to say thatthe man cave is free.
That is something the healing groupoffers just as a social support.
we do have other groupsthat are available.
and if you're looking forlike the postpartum packet,
(44:34):
we do have postpartum packets.
if you call the front desk oremail the front desk at the healing
group, there's resources that we'dlove to provide to moms, dads.
Great.
Yeah, we will definitelylink those in the show notes.
Well, thank you Braxtonfor joining us today.
It was fabulous to hear a perspectivethat we don't often hear about with.
pregnancy and birth.
Thanks so much for having me.
I appreciate it.
(44:55):
Thanks for joining us on today's episode.
We hope you've been elevated andinspired by this week's expert.
Subscribe today so you never missan episode and please share our
podcast or post on your socialmedia so that other moms and dads
to be can also have the best birth.
Please note that the informationprovided is based on the expert's
(45:15):
insights and personal experience.
It is not intended as medical guidance.
Please seek the advice of yourmedical provider as it applies
to your specific condition.
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