October 5, 2024 • 42 mins
On today’s episode, I’m joined by Sarah Langslow, the brilliant author of Do Sweat the Small Stuff, a book that dives into how it’s the everyday interactions—rather than just the big moments—that truly shape our relationships and leadership.
We have a fascinating conversation (and many laughs!) about emotions in communication and how mastering both your own and others' communication styles can feel like unlocking a superpower!
Sarah also takes us through her career journey, sharing how discovering coaching transformed her approach to leadership. We dig into the powerful connection between effective communication and leadership success, and Sarah highlights why reframing failure as a growth opportunity and stepping outside your comfort zone can lead to incredible breakthroughs.
You won’t want to miss this one so grab a coffee and some biscuits and get comfy!
Notes
To find out more about Sarah you can find her on Instagram and Linkedin and you can get her book here
Download your free guide ‘Mic Drop Presentation Hacks’
Join the ‘Bravery Behind The Brand’ Community On Facebook
The ‘Bravery Behind The Brand’ Motivational Song playlist on Spotify
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi, I'm Amanda Jayne andwelcome to the Communicate
With Confidence Podcast. Myaim is to take the fear out of
communicating and make it easyand fun. On this podcast, I'm
going to be talking abouteverything to do with good
communication, how we canconnect with our audience, get
better at speaking and givingpresentations, increase
visibility and ultimately getmore sales. I'll also be
(00:21):
talking to some incrediblepeople about their business
and I'll be getting theirinsights on how they view
communication and howcomfortable they are showing
up in person and on socialmedia. So let's get started.
Hello everyone and welcome tothe Communicate With
Confidence Podcast. I'm yourhost Amanda Jayne and today I
(00:43):
have with me Sarah Langslow,who is the author of Do Sweat
the Small Stuff, Harness thePower of Microinteractions
Transform Your Leadership. Igot that all in one. Welcome
Sarah. Thank you for havingme. It's good to be here. It's
good to have you here and I'mdying to know all about your
book but before we get thereI've got to ask you a few
(01:05):
questions. So do you have afavourite motivational song?
Yeah I had to think hardabout, I was thinking hard
about this one because I didhave a little heads up before
the podcast that this wascoming my way as I've heard
you on you know on yourprevious podcast so The one I
settled on, it's a bit of acheesy one, I'm not gonna lie.
(01:27):
It's Eye of the Tiger. It'sthe theme from Rocky III, I
think. But it's one of thosesongs, I don't know if you
have this, that some songsjust have really strong
associations for you, reallystrong positive associations
and it was many, many moonsago. I used to be quite a
(01:48):
competitive rower and It wasactually at university, there
were round competitions andthey used to play this song at
full blast. And it was alwaysas soon as I hear the opening,
it's like I'm right back thereand the adrenaline's going,
I'm like, I'm ready, let's go.So it always kind of gets me
going. Yeah, I can imagine itdoes seem to kind of prepare
(02:10):
you for battle almost, doesn'tit? That's quite a good
description. Yeah, instantly.And you know, it's funny you
mentioned that my daughter, my17 year old daughter was
showing me a TikTok of a threeyear old girl singing that
song, Eye of the Tiger. And Ithought, you go girl, this
tiny little three year oldsinging it. And it's just one
of those songs that's going totranscend generations. So I
(02:32):
absolutely love that. That isgoing on the Spotify playlist.
And what about a motivationalquote? So I don't have a
single one that I sort ofalways come back to. I think
I'm a bit like whatever is onmy mind or the sort of theme
of stuff I'm personallyworking on reflects the sort
of quote. So the one I'mthinking a lot about at the
(02:53):
moment is, do or do not, thereis no try. Oh, and I think
they know where that comesfrom. Do you know where this
one's from? But you know what?It's from the Big Bang Theory,
not the film. No, actually,no. Well, I think the film
came first because it's fromYoda in the Star Wars Episode
(03:15):
V of The Empire Strikes Back,but it's I just love it.
Partly, now as a writer, Istill struggle to call myself
that. I still don't reallyfeel like a writer. But as a
writer, I'm something of anerd for syntax and the way we
say things. But I love the wayit disrupts. It always makes
(03:35):
me like, no, just do it ordon't do it. Choose. Don't sit
there and try and be like,well, maybe I'll do a
half-hearted effort. You cando something or not do
something, but if you're goingto do it, go for it. Give it
your full effort. Go all in.Give something a really good
go. So whenever I'm, it's whatI like. Yeah. If
(04:01):
anyone watches The Big BangTheory, Penny says it to
Leonard. And I haven't, andthat's how I know that line,
although I haven't seen allthe Star Wars, in a Star Wars
isn't it? And that's how Iknow that quote. But it's, and
you know what, I've actuallylearned loads of stuff like
that from Big Bang, but yeah,I obviously love that quote.
And my next question, I'mgoing to ask you, do you read,
but I see behind you loads ofbooks, so you, and you're a
(04:24):
writer, so you clearly do. Sohave you got a favourite book
or anything in particular thatstands out to you apart from
your own? Yeah, that would bea bit, that would be a bit
narcissistic, like, yes, myfavourite book. I think that's
really cool. Of course, it'swonderful. We don't bang our
own drum enough, I think. I dolove my book, don't get me
wrong. But again, I'm similar,I sort of go through phases.
(04:46):
And I was thinking, what oneam I recommending a lot at the
moment? And it's one I readquite recently, which is Right
Kind of Wrong by AmyEdmondson. And she is a
Harvard Business Revieweditor. I think she works.
She's also a professor. She'san academic in this area, but
(05:07):
she does a lot of work inparticular around
psychological safety and thisidea of how we can learn in
this book to fail well. And Ithink for a lot of people,
It's, and I'm sure you talkabout this a lot on your
podcast, it's this fear offailure that stops us doing
things. It stops us speakingup, it stops us being seen.
(05:30):
And she does, for me, what'sreally interesting in the book
is she breaks it down thatyes, there are sort of better
failures and less usefulfailures, you know, what she
calls very basic failures arethe ones which are easily
avoidable and really we needto just put the effort and not
do, but intelligent failures,failures where we learn stuff.
Failures where we're gettinginto new territory or trying
(05:53):
things we've never done beforeand okay, it doesn't work out.
Never mind, we still learnfrom it. When I was reading
it, it really helped me do alot of reframing. You probably
get the theme with the sort ofdo or do not, but there is no
try. There's a sort of generaltheme to just get out there
and do stuff and some of itwill work and some of it
won't. At least you're takingaction and moving forwards
(06:18):
rather than sitting somewherecomfortable and going oh I'm
not really sure I want to dothat because then you're
neither moving Iwish I'd known how essential
it was to feel when I waslearning and I remember when I
was younger doing things,feeling and thinking that was
(06:38):
it, that meant I was no goodat that thing and I didn't
keep trying, I abandoned itand I'm really glad that the
narrative has changed aroundthat word And that young
people are accepting that, oh,yeah, well, I failed. I'll do
it again. I'll fail to do itagain. And I just absolutely
love that theme. And it isjust so essential. But I wish
(06:58):
that's something I would tellmy younger self. And I think
it's what was the particularnuance for this is I think
I've intellectually understoodhow important it is to fail
for a long time. It's like,well, that's how you learn.
It's part of experimenting.But she really addresses the
emotional side of learning howto fail, of how we How we
(07:19):
handle that, how we buildresilience to bounce back, how
we stop. Failure, adding allof this meaning or judgment on
ourselves and it just becomesa thing that happens that we
can learn from and it's fine.Because I think that's the
side that is often underaddressed. We can be very
flippant about, well, it's howyou learn. It's like, well,
(07:41):
that's great, but it stillfeels rubbish. When you try
something and you fail at itor it doesn't work out, you
sort of have to address theemotional side of it as well,
I think. And what was the termyou used? Psychological
safety, was that it? I've notcome across that term too
much. I did when I wasstudying coaching and I just
love the fact that it's beingaddressed and it's being
(08:02):
talked about and I think it'sso important but it's
fascinating and obviously I'min my geek zone now, I could
listen to you all night. It'sreally connected to the stuff
I write about in the bookbecause if your listeners
aren't familiar, sopsychological, I'll probably
get the definition not quiteright, but essentially it's
(08:22):
about how you create a cultureand an environment where it's
okay to make mistakes. Wheremistakes aren't penalized,
they aren't judged, they'rejust, they're accepted as a
normal part of it. And itdoesn't have to mean that
environments soft or alwayskind or that we don't address
under performance. That can bea sort of... We're still
(08:46):
striving for really highperformance and to learn and
to be great but it means weaccept that mistakes and
failure are a part of that andwe don't have a culture where
they're either penalized orjudged or Well, it's just not
safe to make them. That'swhere the sort of safety part
comes in. Yeah. No, it is.It's fascinating. And I'm
(09:08):
definitely going to look atthat book. That is amazing.
Thank you. So tell us aboutyour book. My book, so Do
Sweat The Small Staff, it cameout in the summer this July.
And I mean, that's been alabour of love for the last
nearly two years, probablymore than two years, actually.
It's all about The tinyinteractions that we have with
(09:32):
other humans every day. Soit's based on this premise
that life actually isn'talways about those big
significant important moments.So think of it almost if you
think of an analogy ofmarriage or a long-term
relationship. It's not aboutthe wedding day. Don't get me
wrong, the wedding day isgreat and really important and
lovely and loads of fun, buther marriage is about the
(09:55):
day-to-day, the tiny littlethings. Does someone take the
pin out? Do they remember tosay, how was your day when
they come in? What's theexpression on their face? It's
all those tiny little momentsand it's the same day-to-day
when we're interacting withpeople and particularly when
we're leading people. Thosetiny, what I call
micro-interactions, Actuallyreally add up to the
(10:16):
relationship. It's what wesay, it's what we don't say,
maybe what we avoid saying.It's how we say it. Do we ask
questions or do we makestatements? What's our tone?
What's our energy? How do wephrase things even? It's also
about more than just what wesay, it's about what we listen
to, what we ignore, what we,again, the conversations we
(10:38):
avoid. And about our actionsand interactions and habits
and behaviours. Do we walk inwith a smile on our face? Are
we good at managing our ownemotions? Do we say it's
really important for people toswitch off at the end of the
day but send them 14 emailschasing them about something
between 6pm and 9am thefollowing morning? All those
(11:01):
little habits. And ways we dothings, even conscious right
now as I'm talking to you,even are we leaning forward
and sort of really up inpeople's faces? Are we leaning
back, maybe speaking moreslowly, leaving more space?
All of those things affect howwe communicate, how we come
(11:22):
across and the impact we haveon others. So it's basically,
the book is all about thosehelping us understand The
impact we have through our ownnatural patterns of
interacting and then a littlebit about how we can maybe
reshape those if the impact wewant, the impact we intend
(11:42):
isn't quite matching up to theway we might be currently
coming across. It's sointeresting and you're just
completely speaking to me inmy geek zone. And I always say
that, just as an example, as ahuman, not necessarily leader,
but as a human, you have thepower to set the tone of the
room the minute you walk in.So if you walk in and you're
(12:05):
happy and cheery, Everyonewill feed off that vibe, but
if the car's broke down, youwalk in, you're in a bad mood
and you enter with that,everyone will come off that.
But you're absolutely rightabout the micro signals that
you give, how you're observingpeople's personal space. For
example, some people don'tactually like being touched,
(12:26):
for example. And me, I'm notthat touchy feely, but to
convey compassion, I mighttouch your arm. To convey
compassion, I've had to learnthat that's not OK, even
though I'm not that touchyfeely. So all of those little
things that behaviors thatI've learned over the years,
because I won't go in and giveyou a big hug because that's
(12:46):
not me at all. But it's so andit's becoming more self-aware
of how we show up with otherpeople, especially when we are
and you know, when we areleading. Everything that
you're possibly not aware ofis impacting everyone that you
are leading and I'm definitelygoing to read your book. It's
such a great example rightbecause you're in that moment
(13:10):
when you reach out or yourinstinct is to reach out and
just put your hand onsomebody's arm your intent
It's so positive. It's, I wantto reassure, I want to let
them know I'm here, I want tolet them, you know, give them
a bit of comfort orreassurance through some
physical touch. Because ifsomeone put their hand on your
arm, that's how you wouldinterpret it. That's your
(13:31):
understanding. It's sort ofthe way you see the world. And
you're spot on because It'snot about our intent because
if the impact of that is toleave the other person feeling
uncomfortable because theyinterpret physical touch as an
invasion of their space orsomething that makes them feel
uncomfortable and meansthey're actually not listening
(13:52):
to a word you say, they'rejust thinking, why does she
have her hand on my arm? Andthat mismatch between our
intent and our intent is ahuge theme through the book
because it's Like I generallyhave a positive view on the
world. I think most of us havevery good intentions and
actually we kind of want toknow where those intentions
(14:12):
aren't translating into theimpact that we're hoping we
have and that we want to have.Yeah, and as going through
that journey as a I'm myself aprofessional communicator, so
I like to say when I meet newpeople, when I work with new
people, I try to casually havethat dialogue. Now this is
going to come out wrong, but Itry to establish, you know,
(14:35):
how do you like to becommunicated with? For
example, do you like shortemails? Would you prefer I
popped in? And, you know, Iwouldn't necessarily go, Are
you happy with me touching youon the arm when I want to
convey? You know, that kind ofthing. But it is worth
spending some time getting toknow that person and
understanding how they want tobe communicated with, because
(14:56):
you can't imagine how, youknow, your intent, as you say,
may be in the very bestinterest, but you've got
absolutely no idea how that isbeing perceived. So it's worth
trying to invest some time Andyou won't get all the answers,
you won't get the 100% of howthey want to be communicated
with, but invest in that timetrying to learn how that
(15:19):
person perceives the world.And sometimes it is okay just
to ask some direct questionsabout their basic sort of
communication And sometimes,you know, we've all had good
leaders and we've all had badleaders. And that's how we
learned to develop our ownstyle.
(15:43):
But it's interesting that youcannot lead in one specific
way to a group of people. Youhave to be dynamic and you
have to be fluent, you have toflex and with one result in
mind to get the job done inthe best possible way with the
happiest possible outcome. Butthe dynamics of human
(16:03):
behaviour and leadershipbehaviour will always be
fascinated. And you're right.And I think the way we get the
job done in the best possibleway is through getting the
best out of our people. And soactually, if we start with our
people, you know, I couldn't,I'm going to violently agree
with you throughout a lot ofthis. I think it's a big gap
(16:24):
for many Whether we use theterm leaders or simply anyone
who is managing other people,I think there's a big gap that
we don't nearly often enoughhave the conversations about
how we like to work. We talkabout the tasks, we talk about
the deadlines, we talk aboutthe outcomes we need to get,
but we don't sit down and havea conversation as you say. How
(16:46):
do you like to work? Underwhat conditions do you thrive?
Do you like me to offersupport? Do you want to wait
to ask? As you say, do youprefer a quick phone call or
would you always prefer amessage or something before we
speak in person? And as yousay, you may not get all the
answers, but the other thingthat those conversations do
(17:06):
that's very valuable is itsort of establishes that it's
okay to have a conversationabout that. And if something
in the communication isn'tworking, you can talk about
it. Oh, I didn't realise youdidn't like to be emailed like
that. No problem at all. Wecan adjust that. It sort of
sets it up as a normalconversation topic, if you
(17:28):
like, which is so helpful. Andpeople are genuinely a bit
confused when you have thatconversation. And they're
like, what? You're asking methat? Oh, well, actually, I
like that. I get to have asay? Oh, I didn't know that.
And I think it conveys thefact that you're compassionate
and that you're giving thatperson the opportunity to say.
And I had a really, reallyfunny example last week.
(17:51):
Someone that I work with sentme a message and I've told
them, you know, brevity isyour friend. Just tell me what
you need to tell me and that'sfine. And they apologised for
being brusque and I was like,what? No, it's fine. You know,
you don't have to begin with,dear Sir Madam, thank you for
your consideration. But I justthought, well, how interesting
(18:13):
that our manners were at thisinfluence on this message.
And, you know, they know thatif it's just, can you do this,
please? That's fine. That'show I like to be communicated
with it because I'm so busy,got so many demands on my
time. That's perfect for me.But I think out of common
courtesy, people genuinely arenot used to being asked that
(18:34):
question, which is just so, sointeresting. But I think very
Very empowering to asksomeone, you know, how do you
like to be communicated with?Very much so. So what about
your leadership journey then?Have you, how's that been?
Have you got any tales fromhow you've This is only a half
hour podcast. My background insome ways is a sort of weird
(19:01):
mix of the traditional and thecompletely non-traditional. I
came from university, wentinto a sort of milk round job
as they were known then, youknow, I went into consulting.
A few years later I did anMBA, I used that to move over
and work in banking for a fewyears. I rapidly realised that
that was not where I wanted towork and move back into
consulting. So that was sortof a relatively normal career
(19:23):
path up to that point. I guessin terms of, I don't know,
moments that defined mycareer, if that isn't too
highbrow aware of what it is.Keep milestones, yeah,
absolutely. Keep milestones,there we go, that sounds a bit
less, yeah. One of those, Ithink, as I was, when I was in
banking, there was a periodtowards the end especially
where I just wasn't happy. Iknew it wasn't right for me. I
(19:46):
felt a bit stuck in the job. Ifelt a bit trapped, feeling
like I'd made a wrong move inmy career and I didn't know
how to sort of undo it and getout of it again. And one of my
very close friends at thetime, we were away for a
weekend together and I'd sortof poured out all my woes and
she said to me, have you everthought of working with a
(20:06):
coach? And it was just that onso many levels her bothering
to ask the question, herthinking of that for me,
thinking I wonder if thatmight help. I'd never worked
with a coach. I didn't reallyeven know what coaching was
particularly at that point.And that very much set me off
on track for sort of thesecond half of my career so
(20:26):
far, if you like, becauseFirstly it got me back into
consulting but the process ofme doing that really opened my
eyes in terms of what waspossible through partnering
with a coach and having thatspace where I could get
support and get reflection andbe challenged and just see the
world a bit differently. Andfast forward a few years, that
(20:47):
coach while I'd been workingwith her had said to me, I
think you'd make a good coachand I'd sort of go oh that's
very nice lovely and gone offinto my consulting job and
said well that's Right, butthen sort of fast forward a
few years later when I thoughtyou know it's like that seed
that gets planted that sort ofgrows away at the back and you
go maybe I want to come backto that and yeah I went back
(21:09):
to her and said a did you meanit and b can you really make a
living doing this because Iwant to make a proper living
doing it And she said yes onboth counts and I took the
plunge, I retrained and thatwas about eight years ago,
eight and a half years ago, Iembarked on that sort of
second part of my career ifyou like to move into
(21:31):
coaching. And I've been doingthat full time ever since, so
working as a coach, workingeverything around leadership
development really.One-to-one, doing some work
with teams, I speak and thenthe latest iteration of that
being putting some of thoseideas and things I've learned
through that eight years ofcoaching hundreds of clients
(21:52):
down into a book so I canhopefully get it out to a
wider audience. Wow, it's soincredible and your story
resonates with me because Iwas, something similar, I was
offered coaching at work, atleadership coach in a few
sessions. And I had a fewproblems and when I went
through it, because it wassuch a revelation working with
(22:15):
this coach, I remember sittingthinking, what witchcraft is
this? Well, it was sotransformative and I
immediately knew in my bonesthat's what I wanted to do.
And I did the same, I studiedand I got qualified and then I
used it in my job and itreally, really helped me be a
better leader and helped mewith that understanding and
(22:36):
self-awareness. But it waslike peeping through a curtain
and seeing the other half ofthe world because it just made
me understand so much that Ihadn't been able to articulate
beforehand and it really,really did It just helped me
articulate so many things inmy mind, but like you, it was
(22:56):
so transformative and it wasjust like, wow. And yeah,
similar situation. I spent thetime since that doing that and
integrate that in my job.Haven't wrote a book yet, who
knows, but I love the factthat... Still time. I love the
fact that it's moved you to dothat. And you see the world
(23:16):
through different eyes, don'tyou, when you're a coach,
because it's obviously theopposite of directive and
you're steering a differentkind of vehicle, aren't you?
And from a leadershipperspective, it just can make
so much of a difference in theworkplace. Yeah, very much so
(23:36):
and I think even you certainlydo see the world differently
once you are a coach but Ithink even just working with a
coach that's you know when youtalk about the transformative
power that that's kind of whatit comes back down to is that
they help you see yourself andthe world a bit differently.
There's that the other quitewell-known quote which is that
(23:57):
we see the world not as it isbut as we are in that you know
we We go through the worldwith this kind of lens on
built from all our pastexperiences and our family and
upbringing, culture, you know,your example of, you know,
touching somebody on the arm,that's a, it's a cultural or
something you've learned thatthat's what your family did,
(24:18):
or that's what your friendsdid, or your culture, you
know, did. But we, the risk isthat we see the world as,
well, everybody's like that.And whether that's for our
relationships in our personallife or our professional life
or how we lead others, it'sexactly having that
realisation that the worldisn't fixed, that others are
different and that we canshift our own perspective to
(24:39):
see things in a different wayjust opens up so much, I don't
know, freedom almost. So muchpossibility through not having
this sort of more fixed viewof the world. And I've always
loved that when you seesomething in a different way
or when you have aconversation, you see things
in a different light. I justlove, I love when you sit and
(25:02):
you go, wow, I hadn'tconsidered that. You know,
that is just my favouritething to say. So I think we've
touched on a little bit, buthow important do you think
communication is inleadership? It's so
fundamental. Because for me,leadership really is about
relationship. It's aboutinspiring others, it's about
(25:24):
moving and motivating othersto want to do things.
Leadership isn't aboutrequiring or having control
over others or forcing othersto do things. We do that
through the relationships webuild and the trust we build
and that comes down tocommunication. It's about how
we interact with others, howwe show up, how we influence
(25:45):
So communicating is just so,so fundamental. And it's, it's
in some ways, it's kind of askill we take for granted. I
don't quite mean it that way,but I think many, many of us,
it's like when you startpeeling the layers away and
(26:06):
learning more about it, youalmost realize how much you
don't know or how much skillyou can build, how much
nuance, how much Iuse the analogy in the book
about talking that so many ofus, we kind of go through the
world on autopilot. And we doit partly from necessity
because we don't really haveenough brain capacity to think
(26:28):
about every single tiny momentall of the time. Just being
able to digest our food andbreathe alongside holding a
conversation and resisting theforce of gravity. There's
already a lot going on. Butyou add extra layers into that
and being able to notice thenuances of how somebody
responds to you, to be able toadapt, to be able to think
(26:50):
through the situation and theoutcome you want and have that
influence the way youcommunicate. But just the way
we show up, as you say, awhole sort of being,
demeanour, energy, tone, allof those things, which are all
communicating. Whether we'rethinking about them
intentionally or not, we arecommunicating. And so that
(27:11):
awareness and understanding ofthat is to me a big difference
between effective and muchless effective leadership if
we're not thinking about thatenough. And that's why I find
it so fascinating too. Tospend some time in a business,
for example, investing in you,learning about yourself, what
(27:35):
can you improve, what are thebest points about you and when
you learn some of the basics,And put some of those
principles into practice. Thethings that you can achieve
with diplomacy, tact,authenticity, respect, it's
incredible. And, you know,sometimes I'll do little
experiments and I'll think,I'll try this this way. Let's
(27:57):
see how that goes. And I justlove it because, you know, 20
years ago, I maybe wouldn'thave been so, it's so I don't
want to say skilled but maybeit must be and you know you
learn things as you go alongbut there are so many there
are good ways to do things andnot such good ways but I do
like being able to bring inthat diplomacy and doing
things and that usually meansspending a little bit longer
(28:20):
Go on, you know, doing,implementing something, but
it's worth the investment atthe time, if you see what I
mean. But spending that timeand learning those few, you
know, some basic skills reallyis worth that investment. So
how comfortable are youshowing up for your audience
online then? Have you? So yougot this book and you've
(28:41):
probably been doing this booktour, which I imagine is
really glamorous. It'sprobably not. Complete
opposites of Paris. I mean, Ithink like many authors, we
have to do self-promotion.It's a very tiny percentage of
books out there that get anyform of sort of big marketing
(29:02):
machine behind them. So likethe majority of authors are
out there sort of promoting itmyself. It's always an
interesting question with howcomfortable. I mean, a lot
more comfortable than I usedto be, I think, certainly.
That's not to say I alwaysfind it easy. There's
definitely the days you justwant to hide and not, you
know, it takes me an hour anda half to write a LinkedIn
(29:24):
post because I'm overthinkingit so chronically, you know,
whatever it might be. Have youhad to step out of your
comfort zone and make yourselfdo it? Because this stuff
doesn't come naturally to mostpeople. 100%. 100%. No, and
it's One of the ways I look atit is that it's ultimately
it's all practice. I'm nottrying to sort of put on a
(29:45):
final polished performance, inpart because I'm not there yet
and I don't even know reallywhere there is. I'm not sure
there is a sort of finaldestination with this, in part
because I think You know,sometimes we get too polished
and it creates a disconnect.It creates a sort of barrier
(30:06):
between us and our audiencebecause like, are you real?
You seem a bit too polishedand a bit too perfect. And yet
it does take that confidenceto be out there with a bit of
messiness or a bit of gettingthings wrong or, you know, the
odd thing that just sort ofcompletely misses the mark or
you, you know, you screw up.So I look at it as sort of a
(30:27):
constant practice and Someweeks I'm up for pushing
myself and you know gettingout there and doing more. I
certainly did a lot in thelead up to the book of putting
myself out there. I then sortof retreated a bit afterwards
because I found that as anintrovert I found that tiring
you know to do that sort ofrelentlessly for two or three
months beforehand. But it'sall part of growing the skill
(30:49):
and the muscle for me and Ikeep trying to do it. I think
the area I'm working on at themoment is probably to be a bit
Alongside the consistency ofdoing it and just practice and
doing more is to be a bit moreMarmite with it. To be
slightly more provocative,have slightly more opinions.
Because deep down I wouldrather be sharing things or...
(31:16):
It's not sort of provocativefor the sake of it, but what I
want to do is to be attractingthe kind of people who I think
that's a good thing because ifI'm trying to
(31:44):
I'm probably going to end upappealing to nobody. And I'm
not saying that's easy. Ithink I really have to push
myself and I still, even whenI push myself, probably end up
a bit more vanilla than Iwould like to be. But it's a
constant practice andsomething I'm working on. I
just think it's so hardbecause by the very fact that
(32:05):
you've written this book, youneed to cut yourself off from
the world and you needsolitude and you've got to
spend time researching anddoing it. And then, you know,
this cocoon, you're coming outas this butterfly and you're
like, right, well, I've doneall this and I loved it. It
was a labour of love. And Ihave to do what now? I have to
go on podcasts, I have to goon the radio. You have to do
(32:27):
the opposite to what you spenttime doing and getting all
your visibility layers. Andyou're right, you do need to
be a little bit controversialbecause you're going to have
to get people to disagree withyou to get the debate going.
And, you know, and sometimesthe internet's not a nice
place, but in order to dothat, you've got to sort of
prompt that debate. And it'sjust that paradox, you know,
(32:52):
and it's got to be exhausting,but, you know, you've just got
to pace yourself, but it'sjust that publicity trail.
Unfortunately, it's necessaryevil. And it's just, I think
it's the same for everybody.You know, you might have a
cake shop or, you know, andyou might like baking the cake
and selling your cakes. Butyou still got to go out there
and tell people about yourcake shop and you've just got
(33:12):
to be so good at so manythings to do the thing that
you just want to do. Althoughit's funny because I think the
more I do it almost the more Ienjoy it and part of it is
also that framing because if Irelate to it as a necessary
evil I'm probably gonna suffermy way through it and hate it
(33:33):
and I feel like it's a choreand feel like I'm failing at
it and that that's a bad thingand that, you know, so and so
and it's just going to bemiserable. And if I can shift
that and sort of relate to itas something that I play with,
something that I'm, you know,having fun with, you know, I
think for a long time I heldLinkedIn in particular as this
(33:54):
sort of I have to show up veryprofessionally because I have
to have this persona becauseno one will ever hire me for
any sensible amount of moneyif I show up and I'm a bit
irreverent. Humor is such abig part of who I am and the
way I work with people. I didsome work and I was working
with someone who sort of did asurvey of some of my clients
(34:16):
and they said the singlebiggest thing they said about
working with you is that theylaugh and they're coaching
each other. I don't know how Ifeel about that because I feel
like I should be serious. It'slike no because you know when
I'm coaching people if they'regetting very They're heavy and
self-judgmental and you knowthey're noticing all the
(34:39):
things they're doing wrong orthat aren't working or the
opportunities. God that's amiserable place to sit.
Whereas if I can get them tolaugh at themselves a bit and
go okay that was that was aninteresting choice of things
to do given the circumstances.You know there's a lightness
to it and a It makes it Ithink easier to make changes
(35:00):
and to try new things if we'remaking it light. It doesn't
have to mean it's unserious orit doesn't have substance, it
just means we're not making itsignificant and heavy, which
is I think one of the biggestthings that gets, or at least
certainly for me, gets in theway of me doing things. The
more I relate to it assignificant, this is really
important and everybody'swatching and I have to get it
(35:22):
right. The harder it becomesto show up and say something
or have an opinion or be seen,be visible. And it is true,
people buy from people andyour personality is
immediately what peoplegravitate to. And I love that
you said about people laughingin your coaching sessions. If
(35:45):
someone's leaving a coachingsession with you and you've
made them laugh, The benefitfor me there is they're not
taking themselves tooseriously. And if they're
having, by definition ofhaving a coaching session,
they've left feeling, having adifferent perspective on
whatever it was that wasthere. So I love that. I think
that's brilliant. And ifthat's what you're known for,
I'd be absolutely capitalised.Embrace it, exactly. I don't
(36:11):
need to deny it or wish it wassomething else. Embrace it
because it works. Yeah,absolutely. Embrace it. And
that is such a nice facet toyour personality to have. So
my final question then, whatlegacy do you hope to leave as
a leader? That is a bigquestion. It is, isn't it?
(36:33):
The way I think about thisquestion is, I almost don't
get too specific, but it'sactually an exercise in the
book, it's thinking about whatsuccess means to me, and
that's success in the I'msitting there on my 80th
(36:54):
birthday looking back andgoing, do I feel proud of my
life? And I think part of itis the experience that I want
to have, having joy and funand connection and adventure
and all of that sort of thing.And that might look a lot of
different ways through mylife. But in terms of the
impact I want to have onothers, it's really simply
(37:16):
about leaving the world abetter place for me having
been in it. And that might bethrough the relationships I
have, it might be through thework I do, who knows? But if
I'm thinking about leaving theworld better, that gives me a
sort of steer in terms of whatI want to be doing or It's an
(37:41):
opportunity, the thing that'sright for me. You know, the
book is, for me, I hope alittle tiny way I can leave
the world better. Because evenwhen I'm not here, those ideas
will still be floating around.It's sort of there forever
now, which is An exciting anda scary thought and it's that
ripple impact. Even just oneor two people read that and it
(38:05):
makes a difference. It makes adifference for the people
around them and the peoplethey work with and the people
they communicate with. That'sa good thing for me. That is
an incredible legacy and onyour birthday, You'll be able
to say, I wrote a book. Youknow, no matter what happens,
no matter whatever directionthis takes you on, I wrote a
book and people will read it.They will be influenced by it.
(38:29):
They will enjoy it. And, youknow, that legacy, I'm
interested in what doessuccess look like for you?
It's such an interestingquestion. It's very revealing
about a person and I don'tmean, you know, if someone
sits and says, oh, I want tobe a billionaire. Well, that's
great for that person. Butit's very... Own it. Own it.
They care about it. If that'swhat matters to you, go for
(38:51):
it. Well, it's interesting howfew people actually say that.
And success for me personally,I want to be healthy, I want
to be here, I want to be agrandmother, I want to be
enjoying my grandchildren andI just want to be comfortable
and happy and have joy. Butthose are the things that
(39:12):
matter. It's not about themoney. You could be
Gazillionaire and not haveyour health. But to have, you
know, have that impact, havethat joy. I just think it's
such a nice question. Youknow, what is your legacy and
what does success look like toyou? And people always ponder
and think, what does thatmean? But I think it's a nice
question to sort of stop atsome point in your life and
(39:32):
think, well, actually, whatwill that legacy be? And the
success question is also that.But you know, you can no one
can take that out from you. Iwrote a book. You should get a
T-shirt with that on. If youever end up in one of these
luxury care homes or whatever,that's what I'm going to do.
(39:53):
I'll still be selling it. I'llbe like, I've got my little
square thing. I'll take creditcards. With your greatest
achievement on it and a QRcode on the back. As you say,
it's It's sort of freeing in away because, you know, even if
I do nothing else, I've donethat. And I'm not done yet.
(40:16):
There's plenty more to do, butit's sort of both and. You
know, you can celebrate thatby saying, well, if nothing
else on that scale everhappens again, it's... You
know, for that line in sand,this stage in your life is
huge. You know, the world isyour oyster from this point.
So that that's your challenge.How can you beat that? So
(40:40):
absolutely incredible stuff.So where can we find you
online and where can we findyour book and more about Sarah
Langslow? Yeah, lots ofplaces. So come find me on
LinkedIn as I'm practicingbeing irreverent and
provocative. I'm quiteprofessional on LinkedIn, by
the way. Come and join in theconversation. I just chose to
make a balance. So yeah, soSarah Langslow on LinkedIn.
(41:03):
It's a unique surname so I'mquite easy to find. You can
also find me on my websitewhich is SarahLangslow.com or
DoYouSweatTheSmallStuffBook.com.We'll get you links to a bit
more information about thebook. And yeah, come and join
in the conversation.Fantastic. I will put all
(41:23):
those links in the show notes.Definitely check them out. I
can't wait to read it. I'mdefinitely going to get my
copy. And thank you so muchfor joining me on the podcast.
It's been absolutelyfantastic. I have loved
talking to you. I could talkto you all night. Fascinating
conversation as ever, but it'sbeen an absolute pleasure. And
thank you for joining me.Thank you very much for having
(41:45):
me. It's been great. Thank youfor listening today and
special thanks to my amazingguest Sarah Langslow for
sharing her fascinating storywith us and don't forget to
check out her book, Do SweatThe Small Stuff. If you want
to increase your sales withyour visibility strategy,
don't miss out on my freeresources. You can find the
links in the podcast notes aswell as the links that Sarah
also mentioned in the podcast.Join me on the next episode
(42:08):
for more incredible storiesand insights. You can follow
me on Instagram at coachAmanda Gian or visit my
website AmandaGian.co.uk. Byefor now.
Hi, I'm Amanda Jayne andwelcome to the Communicate
With Confidence Podcast. Myaim is to take the fear out of
communicating and make it easyand fun. On this podcast, I'm
going to be talking abouteverything to do with good
communication, how we canconnect with our audience, get
better at speaking and givingpresentations, increase
visibility and ultimately getmore sales. I'll also be
(00:21):
talking to some incrediblepeople about their business
and I'll be getting theirinsights on how they view
communication and howcomfortable they are showing
up in person and on socialmedia. So let's get started.
Hello everyone and welcome tothe Communicate With
Confidence Podcast. I'm yourhost Amanda Jayne and today I
(00:43):
have with me Sarah Langslow,who is the author of Do Sweat
the Small Stuff, Harness thePower of Microinteractions
Transform Your Leadership. Igot that all in one. Welcome
Sarah. Thank you for havingme. It's good to be here. It's
good to have you here and I'mdying to know all about your
book but before we get thereI've got to ask you a few
(01:05):
questions. So do you have afavourite motivational song?
Yeah I had to think hardabout, I was thinking hard
about this one because I didhave a little heads up before
the podcast that this wascoming my way as I've heard
you on you know on yourprevious podcast so The one I
settled on, it's a bit of acheesy one, I'm not gonna lie.
(01:27):
It's Eye of the Tiger. It'sthe theme from Rocky III, I
think. But it's one of thosesongs, I don't know if you
have this, that some songsjust have really strong
associations for you, reallystrong positive associations
and it was many, many moonsago. I used to be quite a
(01:48):
competitive rower and It wasactually at university, there
were round competitions andthey used to play this song at
full blast. And it was alwaysas soon as I hear the opening,
it's like I'm right back thereand the adrenaline's going,
I'm like, I'm ready, let's go.So it always kind of gets me
going. Yeah, I can imagine itdoes seem to kind of prepare
(02:10):
you for battle almost, doesn'tit? That's quite a good
description. Yeah, instantly.And you know, it's funny you
mentioned that my daughter, my17 year old daughter was
showing me a TikTok of a threeyear old girl singing that
song, Eye of the Tiger. And Ithought, you go girl, this
tiny little three year oldsinging it. And it's just one
of those songs that's going totranscend generations. So I
(02:32):
absolutely love that. That isgoing on the Spotify playlist.
And what about a motivationalquote? So I don't have a
single one that I sort ofalways come back to. I think
I'm a bit like whatever is onmy mind or the sort of theme
of stuff I'm personallyworking on reflects the sort
of quote. So the one I'mthinking a lot about at the
(02:53):
moment is, do or do not, thereis no try. Oh, and I think
they know where that comesfrom. Do you know where this
one's from? But you know what?It's from the Big Bang Theory,
not the film. No, actually,no. Well, I think the film
came first because it's fromYoda in the Star Wars Episode
(03:15):
V of The Empire Strikes Back,but it's I just love it.
Partly, now as a writer, Istill struggle to call myself
that. I still don't reallyfeel like a writer. But as a
writer, I'm something of anerd for syntax and the way we
say things. But I love the wayit disrupts. It always makes
(03:35):
me like, no, just do it ordon't do it. Choose. Don't sit
there and try and be like,well, maybe I'll do a
half-hearted effort. You cando something or not do
something, but if you're goingto do it, go for it. Give it
your full effort. Go all in.Give something a really good
go. So whenever I'm, it's whatI like. Yeah. If
(04:01):
anyone watches The Big BangTheory, Penny says it to
Leonard. And I haven't, andthat's how I know that line,
although I haven't seen allthe Star Wars, in a Star Wars
isn't it? And that's how Iknow that quote. But it's, and
you know what, I've actuallylearned loads of stuff like
that from Big Bang, but yeah,I obviously love that quote.
And my next question, I'mgoing to ask you, do you read,
but I see behind you loads ofbooks, so you, and you're a
(04:24):
writer, so you clearly do. Sohave you got a favourite book
or anything in particular thatstands out to you apart from
your own? Yeah, that would bea bit, that would be a bit
narcissistic, like, yes, myfavourite book. I think that's
really cool. Of course, it'swonderful. We don't bang our
own drum enough, I think. I dolove my book, don't get me
wrong. But again, I'm similar,I sort of go through phases.
(04:46):
And I was thinking, what oneam I recommending a lot at the
moment? And it's one I readquite recently, which is Right
Kind of Wrong by AmyEdmondson. And she is a
Harvard Business Revieweditor. I think she works.
She's also a professor. She'san academic in this area, but
(05:07):
she does a lot of work inparticular around
psychological safety and thisidea of how we can learn in
this book to fail well. And Ithink for a lot of people,
It's, and I'm sure you talkabout this a lot on your
podcast, it's this fear offailure that stops us doing
things. It stops us speakingup, it stops us being seen.
(05:30):
And she does, for me, what'sreally interesting in the book
is she breaks it down thatyes, there are sort of better
failures and less usefulfailures, you know, what she
calls very basic failures arethe ones which are easily
avoidable and really we needto just put the effort and not
do, but intelligent failures,failures where we learn stuff.
Failures where we're gettinginto new territory or trying
(05:53):
things we've never done beforeand okay, it doesn't work out.
Never mind, we still learnfrom it. When I was reading
it, it really helped me do alot of reframing. You probably
get the theme with the sort ofdo or do not, but there is no
try. There's a sort of generaltheme to just get out there
and do stuff and some of itwill work and some of it
won't. At least you're takingaction and moving forwards
(06:18):
rather than sitting somewherecomfortable and going oh I'm
not really sure I want to dothat because then you're
neither moving Iwish I'd known how essential
it was to feel when I waslearning and I remember when I
was younger doing things,feeling and thinking that was
(06:38):
it, that meant I was no goodat that thing and I didn't
keep trying, I abandoned itand I'm really glad that the
narrative has changed aroundthat word And that young
people are accepting that, oh,yeah, well, I failed. I'll do
it again. I'll fail to do itagain. And I just absolutely
love that theme. And it isjust so essential. But I wish
(06:58):
that's something I would tellmy younger self. And I think
it's what was the particularnuance for this is I think
I've intellectually understoodhow important it is to fail
for a long time. It's like,well, that's how you learn.
It's part of experimenting.But she really addresses the
emotional side of learning howto fail, of how we How we
(07:19):
handle that, how we buildresilience to bounce back, how
we stop. Failure, adding allof this meaning or judgment on
ourselves and it just becomesa thing that happens that we
can learn from and it's fine.Because I think that's the
side that is often underaddressed. We can be very
flippant about, well, it's howyou learn. It's like, well,
(07:41):
that's great, but it stillfeels rubbish. When you try
something and you fail at itor it doesn't work out, you
sort of have to address theemotional side of it as well,
I think. And what was the termyou used? Psychological
safety, was that it? I've notcome across that term too
much. I did when I wasstudying coaching and I just
love the fact that it's beingaddressed and it's being
(08:02):
talked about and I think it'sso important but it's
fascinating and obviously I'min my geek zone now, I could
listen to you all night. It'sreally connected to the stuff
I write about in the bookbecause if your listeners
aren't familiar, sopsychological, I'll probably
get the definition not quiteright, but essentially it's
(08:22):
about how you create a cultureand an environment where it's
okay to make mistakes. Wheremistakes aren't penalized,
they aren't judged, they'rejust, they're accepted as a
normal part of it. And itdoesn't have to mean that
environments soft or alwayskind or that we don't address
under performance. That can bea sort of... We're still
(08:46):
striving for really highperformance and to learn and
to be great but it means weaccept that mistakes and
failure are a part of that andwe don't have a culture where
they're either penalized orjudged or Well, it's just not
safe to make them. That'swhere the sort of safety part
comes in. Yeah. No, it is.It's fascinating. And I'm
(09:08):
definitely going to look atthat book. That is amazing.
Thank you. So tell us aboutyour book. My book, so Do
Sweat The Small Staff, it cameout in the summer this July.
And I mean, that's been alabour of love for the last
nearly two years, probablymore than two years, actually.
It's all about The tinyinteractions that we have with
(09:32):
other humans every day. Soit's based on this premise
that life actually isn'talways about those big
significant important moments.So think of it almost if you
think of an analogy ofmarriage or a long-term
relationship. It's not aboutthe wedding day. Don't get me
wrong, the wedding day isgreat and really important and
lovely and loads of fun, buther marriage is about the
(09:55):
day-to-day, the tiny littlethings. Does someone take the
pin out? Do they remember tosay, how was your day when
they come in? What's theexpression on their face? It's
all those tiny little momentsand it's the same day-to-day
when we're interacting withpeople and particularly when
we're leading people. Thosetiny, what I call
micro-interactions, Actuallyreally add up to the
(10:16):
relationship. It's what wesay, it's what we don't say,
maybe what we avoid saying.It's how we say it. Do we ask
questions or do we makestatements? What's our tone?
What's our energy? How do wephrase things even? It's also
about more than just what wesay, it's about what we listen
to, what we ignore, what we,again, the conversations we
(10:38):
avoid. And about our actionsand interactions and habits
and behaviours. Do we walk inwith a smile on our face? Are
we good at managing our ownemotions? Do we say it's
really important for people toswitch off at the end of the
day but send them 14 emailschasing them about something
between 6pm and 9am thefollowing morning? All those
(11:01):
little habits. And ways we dothings, even conscious right
now as I'm talking to you,even are we leaning forward
and sort of really up inpeople's faces? Are we leaning
back, maybe speaking moreslowly, leaving more space?
All of those things affect howwe communicate, how we come
(11:22):
across and the impact we haveon others. So it's basically,
the book is all about thosehelping us understand The
impact we have through our ownnatural patterns of
interacting and then a littlebit about how we can maybe
reshape those if the impact wewant, the impact we intend
(11:42):
isn't quite matching up to theway we might be currently
coming across. It's sointeresting and you're just
completely speaking to me inmy geek zone. And I always say
that, just as an example, as ahuman, not necessarily leader,
but as a human, you have thepower to set the tone of the
room the minute you walk in.So if you walk in and you're
(12:05):
happy and cheery, Everyonewill feed off that vibe, but
if the car's broke down, youwalk in, you're in a bad mood
and you enter with that,everyone will come off that.
But you're absolutely rightabout the micro signals that
you give, how you're observingpeople's personal space. For
example, some people don'tactually like being touched,
(12:26):
for example. And me, I'm notthat touchy feely, but to
convey compassion, I mighttouch your arm. To convey
compassion, I've had to learnthat that's not OK, even
though I'm not that touchyfeely. So all of those little
things that behaviors thatI've learned over the years,
because I won't go in and giveyou a big hug because that's
(12:46):
not me at all. But it's so andit's becoming more self-aware
of how we show up with otherpeople, especially when we are
and you know, when we areleading. Everything that
you're possibly not aware ofis impacting everyone that you
are leading and I'm definitelygoing to read your book. It's
such a great example rightbecause you're in that moment
(13:10):
when you reach out or yourinstinct is to reach out and
just put your hand onsomebody's arm your intent
It's so positive. It's, I wantto reassure, I want to let
them know I'm here, I want tolet them, you know, give them
a bit of comfort orreassurance through some
physical touch. Because ifsomeone put their hand on your
arm, that's how you wouldinterpret it. That's your
(13:31):
understanding. It's sort ofthe way you see the world. And
you're spot on because It'snot about our intent because
if the impact of that is toleave the other person feeling
uncomfortable because theyinterpret physical touch as an
invasion of their space orsomething that makes them feel
uncomfortable and meansthey're actually not listening
(13:52):
to a word you say, they'rejust thinking, why does she
have her hand on my arm? Andthat mismatch between our
intent and our intent is ahuge theme through the book
because it's Like I generallyhave a positive view on the
world. I think most of us havevery good intentions and
actually we kind of want toknow where those intentions
(14:12):
aren't translating into theimpact that we're hoping we
have and that we want to have.Yeah, and as going through
that journey as a I'm myself aprofessional communicator, so
I like to say when I meet newpeople, when I work with new
people, I try to casually havethat dialogue. Now this is
going to come out wrong, but Itry to establish, you know,
(14:35):
how do you like to becommunicated with? For
example, do you like shortemails? Would you prefer I
popped in? And, you know, Iwouldn't necessarily go, Are
you happy with me touching youon the arm when I want to
convey? You know, that kind ofthing. But it is worth
spending some time getting toknow that person and
understanding how they want tobe communicated with, because
(14:56):
you can't imagine how, youknow, your intent, as you say,
may be in the very bestinterest, but you've got
absolutely no idea how that isbeing perceived. So it's worth
trying to invest some time Andyou won't get all the answers,
you won't get the 100% of howthey want to be communicated
with, but invest in that timetrying to learn how that
(15:19):
person perceives the world.And sometimes it is okay just
to ask some direct questionsabout their basic sort of
communication And sometimes,you know, we've all had good
leaders and we've all had badleaders. And that's how we
learned to develop our ownstyle.
(15:43):
But it's interesting that youcannot lead in one specific
way to a group of people. Youhave to be dynamic and you
have to be fluent, you have toflex and with one result in
mind to get the job done inthe best possible way with the
happiest possible outcome. Butthe dynamics of human
(16:03):
behaviour and leadershipbehaviour will always be
fascinated. And you're right.And I think the way we get the
job done in the best possibleway is through getting the
best out of our people. And soactually, if we start with our
people, you know, I couldn't,I'm going to violently agree
with you throughout a lot ofthis. I think it's a big gap
(16:24):
for many Whether we use theterm leaders or simply anyone
who is managing other people,I think there's a big gap that
we don't nearly often enoughhave the conversations about
how we like to work. We talkabout the tasks, we talk about
the deadlines, we talk aboutthe outcomes we need to get,
but we don't sit down and havea conversation as you say. How
(16:46):
do you like to work? Underwhat conditions do you thrive?
Do you like me to offersupport? Do you want to wait
to ask? As you say, do youprefer a quick phone call or
would you always prefer amessage or something before we
speak in person? And as yousay, you may not get all the
answers, but the other thingthat those conversations do
(17:06):
that's very valuable is itsort of establishes that it's
okay to have a conversationabout that. And if something
in the communication isn'tworking, you can talk about
it. Oh, I didn't realise youdidn't like to be emailed like
that. No problem at all. Wecan adjust that. It sort of
sets it up as a normalconversation topic, if you
(17:28):
like, which is so helpful. Andpeople are genuinely a bit
confused when you have thatconversation. And they're
like, what? You're asking methat? Oh, well, actually, I
like that. I get to have asay? Oh, I didn't know that.
And I think it conveys thefact that you're compassionate
and that you're giving thatperson the opportunity to say.
And I had a really, reallyfunny example last week.
(17:51):
Someone that I work with sentme a message and I've told
them, you know, brevity isyour friend. Just tell me what
you need to tell me and that'sfine. And they apologised for
being brusque and I was like,what? No, it's fine. You know,
you don't have to begin with,dear Sir Madam, thank you for
your consideration. But I justthought, well, how interesting
(18:13):
that our manners were at thisinfluence on this message.
And, you know, they know thatif it's just, can you do this,
please? That's fine. That'show I like to be communicated
with it because I'm so busy,got so many demands on my
time. That's perfect for me.But I think out of common
courtesy, people genuinely arenot used to being asked that
(18:34):
question, which is just so, sointeresting. But I think very
Very empowering to asksomeone, you know, how do you
like to be communicated with?Very much so. So what about
your leadership journey then?Have you, how's that been?
Have you got any tales fromhow you've This is only a half
hour podcast. My background insome ways is a sort of weird
(19:01):
mix of the traditional and thecompletely non-traditional. I
came from university, wentinto a sort of milk round job
as they were known then, youknow, I went into consulting.
A few years later I did anMBA, I used that to move over
and work in banking for a fewyears. I rapidly realised that
that was not where I wanted towork and move back into
consulting. So that was sortof a relatively normal career
(19:23):
path up to that point. I guessin terms of, I don't know,
moments that defined mycareer, if that isn't too
highbrow aware of what it is.Keep milestones, yeah,
absolutely. Keep milestones,there we go, that sounds a bit
less, yeah. One of those, Ithink, as I was, when I was in
banking, there was a periodtowards the end especially
where I just wasn't happy. Iknew it wasn't right for me. I
(19:46):
felt a bit stuck in the job. Ifelt a bit trapped, feeling
like I'd made a wrong move inmy career and I didn't know
how to sort of undo it and getout of it again. And one of my
very close friends at thetime, we were away for a
weekend together and I'd sortof poured out all my woes and
she said to me, have you everthought of working with a
(20:06):
coach? And it was just that onso many levels her bothering
to ask the question, herthinking of that for me,
thinking I wonder if thatmight help. I'd never worked
with a coach. I didn't reallyeven know what coaching was
particularly at that point.And that very much set me off
on track for sort of thesecond half of my career so
(20:26):
far, if you like, becauseFirstly it got me back into
consulting but the process ofme doing that really opened my
eyes in terms of what waspossible through partnering
with a coach and having thatspace where I could get
support and get reflection andbe challenged and just see the
world a bit differently. Andfast forward a few years, that
(20:47):
coach while I'd been workingwith her had said to me, I
think you'd make a good coachand I'd sort of go oh that's
very nice lovely and gone offinto my consulting job and
said well that's Right, butthen sort of fast forward a
few years later when I thoughtyou know it's like that seed
that gets planted that sort ofgrows away at the back and you
go maybe I want to come backto that and yeah I went back
(21:09):
to her and said a did you meanit and b can you really make a
living doing this because Iwant to make a proper living
doing it And she said yes onboth counts and I took the
plunge, I retrained and thatwas about eight years ago,
eight and a half years ago, Iembarked on that sort of
second part of my career ifyou like to move into
(21:31):
coaching. And I've been doingthat full time ever since, so
working as a coach, workingeverything around leadership
development really.One-to-one, doing some work
with teams, I speak and thenthe latest iteration of that
being putting some of thoseideas and things I've learned
through that eight years ofcoaching hundreds of clients
(21:52):
down into a book so I canhopefully get it out to a
wider audience. Wow, it's soincredible and your story
resonates with me because Iwas, something similar, I was
offered coaching at work, atleadership coach in a few
sessions. And I had a fewproblems and when I went
through it, because it wassuch a revelation working with
(22:15):
this coach, I remember sittingthinking, what witchcraft is
this? Well, it was sotransformative and I
immediately knew in my bonesthat's what I wanted to do.
And I did the same, I studiedand I got qualified and then I
used it in my job and itreally, really helped me be a
better leader and helped mewith that understanding and
(22:36):
self-awareness. But it waslike peeping through a curtain
and seeing the other half ofthe world because it just made
me understand so much that Ihadn't been able to articulate
beforehand and it really,really did It just helped me
articulate so many things inmy mind, but like you, it was
(22:56):
so transformative and it wasjust like, wow. And yeah,
similar situation. I spent thetime since that doing that and
integrate that in my job.Haven't wrote a book yet, who
knows, but I love the factthat... Still time. I love the
fact that it's moved you to dothat. And you see the world
(23:16):
through different eyes, don'tyou, when you're a coach,
because it's obviously theopposite of directive and
you're steering a differentkind of vehicle, aren't you?
And from a leadershipperspective, it just can make
so much of a difference in theworkplace. Yeah, very much so
(23:36):
and I think even you certainlydo see the world differently
once you are a coach but Ithink even just working with a
coach that's you know when youtalk about the transformative
power that that's kind of whatit comes back down to is that
they help you see yourself andthe world a bit differently.
There's that the other quitewell-known quote which is that
(23:57):
we see the world not as it isbut as we are in that you know
we We go through the worldwith this kind of lens on
built from all our pastexperiences and our family and
upbringing, culture, you know,your example of, you know,
touching somebody on the arm,that's a, it's a cultural or
something you've learned thatthat's what your family did,
(24:18):
or that's what your friendsdid, or your culture, you
know, did. But we, the risk isthat we see the world as,
well, everybody's like that.And whether that's for our
relationships in our personallife or our professional life
or how we lead others, it'sexactly having that
realisation that the worldisn't fixed, that others are
different and that we canshift our own perspective to
(24:39):
see things in a different wayjust opens up so much, I don't
know, freedom almost. So muchpossibility through not having
this sort of more fixed viewof the world. And I've always
loved that when you seesomething in a different way
or when you have aconversation, you see things
in a different light. I justlove, I love when you sit and
(25:02):
you go, wow, I hadn'tconsidered that. You know,
that is just my favouritething to say. So I think we've
touched on a little bit, buthow important do you think
communication is inleadership? It's so
fundamental. Because for me,leadership really is about
relationship. It's aboutinspiring others, it's about
(25:24):
moving and motivating othersto want to do things.
Leadership isn't aboutrequiring or having control
over others or forcing othersto do things. We do that
through the relationships webuild and the trust we build
and that comes down tocommunication. It's about how
we interact with others, howwe show up, how we influence
(25:45):
So communicating is just so,so fundamental. And it's, it's
in some ways, it's kind of askill we take for granted. I
don't quite mean it that way,but I think many, many of us,
it's like when you startpeeling the layers away and
(26:06):
learning more about it, youalmost realize how much you
don't know or how much skillyou can build, how much
nuance, how much Iuse the analogy in the book
about talking that so many ofus, we kind of go through the
world on autopilot. And we doit partly from necessity
because we don't really haveenough brain capacity to think
(26:28):
about every single tiny momentall of the time. Just being
able to digest our food andbreathe alongside holding a
conversation and resisting theforce of gravity. There's
already a lot going on. Butyou add extra layers into that
and being able to notice thenuances of how somebody
responds to you, to be able toadapt, to be able to think
(26:50):
through the situation and theoutcome you want and have that
influence the way youcommunicate. But just the way
we show up, as you say, awhole sort of being,
demeanour, energy, tone, allof those things, which are all
communicating. Whether we'rethinking about them
intentionally or not, we arecommunicating. And so that
(27:11):
awareness and understanding ofthat is to me a big difference
between effective and muchless effective leadership if
we're not thinking about thatenough. And that's why I find
it so fascinating too. Tospend some time in a business,
for example, investing in you,learning about yourself, what
(27:35):
can you improve, what are thebest points about you and when
you learn some of the basics,And put some of those
principles into practice. Thethings that you can achieve
with diplomacy, tact,authenticity, respect, it's
incredible. And, you know,sometimes I'll do little
experiments and I'll think,I'll try this this way. Let's
(27:57):
see how that goes. And I justlove it because, you know, 20
years ago, I maybe wouldn'thave been so, it's so I don't
want to say skilled but maybeit must be and you know you
learn things as you go alongbut there are so many there
are good ways to do things andnot such good ways but I do
like being able to bring inthat diplomacy and doing
things and that usually meansspending a little bit longer
(28:20):
Go on, you know, doing,implementing something, but
it's worth the investment atthe time, if you see what I
mean. But spending that timeand learning those few, you
know, some basic skills reallyis worth that investment. So
how comfortable are youshowing up for your audience
online then? Have you? So yougot this book and you've
(28:41):
probably been doing this booktour, which I imagine is
really glamorous. It'sprobably not. Complete
opposites of Paris. I mean, Ithink like many authors, we
have to do self-promotion.It's a very tiny percentage of
books out there that get anyform of sort of big marketing
(29:02):
machine behind them. So likethe majority of authors are
out there sort of promoting itmyself. It's always an
interesting question with howcomfortable. I mean, a lot
more comfortable than I usedto be, I think, certainly.
That's not to say I alwaysfind it easy. There's
definitely the days you justwant to hide and not, you
know, it takes me an hour anda half to write a LinkedIn
(29:24):
post because I'm overthinkingit so chronically, you know,
whatever it might be. Have youhad to step out of your
comfort zone and make yourselfdo it? Because this stuff
doesn't come naturally to mostpeople. 100%. 100%. No, and
it's One of the ways I look atit is that it's ultimately
it's all practice. I'm nottrying to sort of put on a
(29:45):
final polished performance, inpart because I'm not there yet
and I don't even know reallywhere there is. I'm not sure
there is a sort of finaldestination with this, in part
because I think You know,sometimes we get too polished
and it creates a disconnect.It creates a sort of barrier
(30:06):
between us and our audiencebecause like, are you real?
You seem a bit too polishedand a bit too perfect. And yet
it does take that confidenceto be out there with a bit of
messiness or a bit of gettingthings wrong or, you know, the
odd thing that just sort ofcompletely misses the mark or
you, you know, you screw up.So I look at it as sort of a
(30:27):
constant practice and Someweeks I'm up for pushing
myself and you know gettingout there and doing more. I
certainly did a lot in thelead up to the book of putting
myself out there. I then sortof retreated a bit afterwards
because I found that as anintrovert I found that tiring
you know to do that sort ofrelentlessly for two or three
months beforehand. But it'sall part of growing the skill
(30:49):
and the muscle for me and Ikeep trying to do it. I think
the area I'm working on at themoment is probably to be a bit
Alongside the consistency ofdoing it and just practice and
doing more is to be a bit moreMarmite with it. To be
slightly more provocative,have slightly more opinions.
Because deep down I wouldrather be sharing things or...
(31:16):
It's not sort of provocativefor the sake of it, but what I
want to do is to be attractingthe kind of people who I think
that's a good thing because ifI'm trying to
(31:44):
I'm probably going to end upappealing to nobody. And I'm
not saying that's easy. Ithink I really have to push
myself and I still, even whenI push myself, probably end up
a bit more vanilla than Iwould like to be. But it's a
constant practice andsomething I'm working on. I
just think it's so hardbecause by the very fact that
(32:05):
you've written this book, youneed to cut yourself off from
the world and you needsolitude and you've got to
spend time researching anddoing it. And then, you know,
this cocoon, you're coming outas this butterfly and you're
like, right, well, I've doneall this and I loved it. It
was a labour of love. And Ihave to do what now? I have to
go on podcasts, I have to goon the radio. You have to do
(32:27):
the opposite to what you spenttime doing and getting all
your visibility layers. Andyou're right, you do need to
be a little bit controversialbecause you're going to have
to get people to disagree withyou to get the debate going.
And, you know, and sometimesthe internet's not a nice
place, but in order to dothat, you've got to sort of
prompt that debate. And it'sjust that paradox, you know,
(32:52):
and it's got to be exhausting,but, you know, you've just got
to pace yourself, but it'sjust that publicity trail.
Unfortunately, it's necessaryevil. And it's just, I think
it's the same for everybody.You know, you might have a
cake shop or, you know, andyou might like baking the cake
and selling your cakes. Butyou still got to go out there
and tell people about yourcake shop and you've just got
(33:12):
to be so good at so manythings to do the thing that
you just want to do. Althoughit's funny because I think the
more I do it almost the more Ienjoy it and part of it is
also that framing because if Irelate to it as a necessary
evil I'm probably gonna suffermy way through it and hate it
(33:33):
and I feel like it's a choreand feel like I'm failing at
it and that that's a bad thingand that, you know, so and so
and it's just going to bemiserable. And if I can shift
that and sort of relate to itas something that I play with,
something that I'm, you know,having fun with, you know, I
think for a long time I heldLinkedIn in particular as this
(33:54):
sort of I have to show up veryprofessionally because I have
to have this persona becauseno one will ever hire me for
any sensible amount of moneyif I show up and I'm a bit
irreverent. Humor is such abig part of who I am and the
way I work with people. I didsome work and I was working
with someone who sort of did asurvey of some of my clients
(34:16):
and they said the singlebiggest thing they said about
working with you is that theylaugh and they're coaching
each other. I don't know how Ifeel about that because I feel
like I should be serious. It'slike no because you know when
I'm coaching people if they'regetting very They're heavy and
self-judgmental and you knowthey're noticing all the
(34:39):
things they're doing wrong orthat aren't working or the
opportunities. God that's amiserable place to sit.
Whereas if I can get them tolaugh at themselves a bit and
go okay that was that was aninteresting choice of things
to do given the circumstances.You know there's a lightness
to it and a It makes it Ithink easier to make changes
(35:00):
and to try new things if we'remaking it light. It doesn't
have to mean it's unserious orit doesn't have substance, it
just means we're not making itsignificant and heavy, which
is I think one of the biggestthings that gets, or at least
certainly for me, gets in theway of me doing things. The
more I relate to it assignificant, this is really
important and everybody'swatching and I have to get it
(35:22):
right. The harder it becomesto show up and say something
or have an opinion or be seen,be visible. And it is true,
people buy from people andyour personality is
immediately what peoplegravitate to. And I love that
you said about people laughingin your coaching sessions. If
(35:45):
someone's leaving a coachingsession with you and you've
made them laugh, The benefitfor me there is they're not
taking themselves tooseriously. And if they're
having, by definition ofhaving a coaching session,
they've left feeling, having adifferent perspective on
whatever it was that wasthere. So I love that. I think
that's brilliant. And ifthat's what you're known for,
I'd be absolutely capitalised.Embrace it, exactly. I don't
(36:11):
need to deny it or wish it wassomething else. Embrace it
because it works. Yeah,absolutely. Embrace it. And
that is such a nice facet toyour personality to have. So
my final question then, whatlegacy do you hope to leave as
a leader? That is a bigquestion. It is, isn't it?
(36:33):
The way I think about thisquestion is, I almost don't
get too specific, but it'sactually an exercise in the
book, it's thinking about whatsuccess means to me, and
that's success in the I'msitting there on my 80th
(36:54):
birthday looking back andgoing, do I feel proud of my
life? And I think part of itis the experience that I want
to have, having joy and funand connection and adventure
and all of that sort of thing.And that might look a lot of
different ways through mylife. But in terms of the
impact I want to have onothers, it's really simply
(37:16):
about leaving the world abetter place for me having
been in it. And that might bethrough the relationships I
have, it might be through thework I do, who knows? But if
I'm thinking about leaving theworld better, that gives me a
sort of steer in terms of whatI want to be doing or It's an
(37:41):
opportunity, the thing that'sright for me. You know, the
book is, for me, I hope alittle tiny way I can leave
the world better. Because evenwhen I'm not here, those ideas
will still be floating around.It's sort of there forever
now, which is An exciting anda scary thought and it's that
ripple impact. Even just oneor two people read that and it
(38:05):
makes a difference. It makes adifference for the people
around them and the peoplethey work with and the people
they communicate with. That'sa good thing for me. That is
an incredible legacy and onyour birthday, You'll be able
to say, I wrote a book. Youknow, no matter what happens,
no matter whatever directionthis takes you on, I wrote a
book and people will read it.They will be influenced by it.
(38:29):
They will enjoy it. And, youknow, that legacy, I'm
interested in what doessuccess look like for you?
It's such an interestingquestion. It's very revealing
about a person and I don'tmean, you know, if someone
sits and says, oh, I want tobe a billionaire. Well, that's
great for that person. Butit's very... Own it. Own it.
They care about it. If that'swhat matters to you, go for
(38:51):
it. Well, it's interesting howfew people actually say that.
And success for me personally,I want to be healthy, I want
to be here, I want to be agrandmother, I want to be
enjoying my grandchildren andI just want to be comfortable
and happy and have joy. Butthose are the things that
(39:12):
matter. It's not about themoney. You could be
Gazillionaire and not haveyour health. But to have, you
know, have that impact, havethat joy. I just think it's
such a nice question. Youknow, what is your legacy and
what does success look like toyou? And people always ponder
and think, what does thatmean? But I think it's a nice
question to sort of stop atsome point in your life and
(39:32):
think, well, actually, whatwill that legacy be? And the
success question is also that.But you know, you can no one
can take that out from you. Iwrote a book. You should get a
T-shirt with that on. If youever end up in one of these
luxury care homes or whatever,that's what I'm going to do.
(39:53):
I'll still be selling it. I'llbe like, I've got my little
square thing. I'll take creditcards. With your greatest
achievement on it and a QRcode on the back. As you say,
it's It's sort of freeing in away because, you know, even if
I do nothing else, I've donethat. And I'm not done yet.
(40:16):
There's plenty more to do, butit's sort of both and. You
know, you can celebrate thatby saying, well, if nothing
else on that scale everhappens again, it's... You
know, for that line in sand,this stage in your life is
huge. You know, the world isyour oyster from this point.
So that that's your challenge.How can you beat that? So
(40:40):
absolutely incredible stuff.So where can we find you
online and where can we findyour book and more about Sarah
Langslow? Yeah, lots ofplaces. So come find me on
LinkedIn as I'm practicingbeing irreverent and
provocative. I'm quiteprofessional on LinkedIn, by
the way. Come and join in theconversation. I just chose to
make a balance. So yeah, soSarah Langslow on LinkedIn.
(41:03):
It's a unique surname so I'mquite easy to find. You can
also find me on my websitewhich is SarahLangslow.com or
DoYouSweatTheSmallStuffBook.com.We'll get you links to a bit
more information about thebook. And yeah, come and join
in the conversation.Fantastic. I will put all
(41:23):
those links in the show notes.Definitely check them out. I
can't wait to read it. I'mdefinitely going to get my
copy. And thank you so muchfor joining me on the podcast.
It's been absolutelyfantastic. I have loved
talking to you. I could talkto you all night. Fascinating
conversation as ever, but it'sbeen an absolute pleasure. And
thank you for joining me.Thank you very much for having
(41:45):
me. It's been great. Thank youfor listening today and
special thanks to my amazingguest Sarah Langslow for
sharing her fascinating storywith us and don't forget to
check out her book, Do SweatThe Small Stuff. If you want
to increase your sales withyour visibility strategy,
don't miss out on my freeresources. You can find the
links in the podcast notes aswell as the links that Sarah
also mentioned in the podcast.Join me on the next episode
(42:08):
for more incredible storiesand insights. You can follow
me on Instagram at coachAmanda Gian or visit my
website AmandaGian.co.uk. Byefor now.
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