October 12, 2024 • 41 mins
Zoe Thompson, coach, trainer and speaker joins me this week as we chat about the ups and downs of leaving the public sector for self-employment, including how tricky it can be to stay visible—especially if you’ve got some past challenges to overcome.
We also discuss the new world that former public sector workers find themselves in and unique challenges that brings as they navigate new, and very different, ways of working.
Zoe shares her fascinating leadership journey from humble beginnings on the front desk of the local police station to senior management positions and how she had to learn fast and think on her feet!
Notes
To find out more about Zoe you can find her on Instagram and Facebook
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Join the ‘Bravery Behind The Brand’ Community On Facebook
The ‘Bravery Behind The Brand’ Motivational Song playlist on Spotify
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi, I'm Amanda Jayne andwelcome to the Communicate
With Confidence Podcast. Myaim is to take the fear out of
communicating and make it easyand fun. On this podcast, I'm
going to be talking abouteverything to do with good
communication, how we canconnect with our audience, get
better at speaking and givingpresentations, increase
visibility and ultimately getmore sales. I'll also be
(00:21):
talking to some incrediblepeople about their business
and I'll be getting theirinsights on how they view
communication and howcomfortable they are showing
up in person and on socialmedia. So let's get started!
Hello everyone and welcome tothe Communicate With
Confidence Podcast. I'm yourhost Amanda Jane and today I
(00:43):
have with me Zoe Thompson,coach, trainer and speaker.
Hello Zoe. Hi, thank you forhaving me in. Thank you for
joining me. I'm really lookingforward to finding all about
your business because I'm inyour Facebook group and I can
see all the fantastic workyou're doing. But for the
moment I'm going to be reallynosy and ask you my famous
three questions now. So, Doyou have a favourite
(01:05):
motivational song? I do andit's Golden by Jill Scott.
It's love, I love the tune butthe lyrics really resonate
with me. Oh I'm not sure. It'san oldie but it's a goodie.
I'll rip that up and put thaton the Spotify list,
fantastic. And do you have afavourite motivational quote?
(01:26):
Probably not one that can beAttributed to anybody, but
anyone that knows me andspends any time with me will
hear me say two thingsfrequently. It is what it is.
I say that a lot, like shrugit off. It is what it is and
get comfortable with beinguncomfortable. That's probably
the two things that you wouldhear me say. Yeah, good piece
(01:47):
of advice, it is one of those,nothing will change, but that
get comfortable beinguncomfortable, that's a really
interesting one because yourhead stops you in your tracks,
doesn't it? Yeah, and I thinkthere's lots of, you know,
when we talk about steppingoutside comfort zone or when
we talk about doing somethingnew, but I think for me and my
journey, every time I'veachieved something, it has
(02:09):
needed me to kind of getcomfortable with being
uncomfortable. So there's alittle bit of a story behind
it, but And that is alwayswhere the magic is when I try
and visualise a ring, I'mstepping in the ring and the
people that go in the ring,that's where the success is,
that's where the adventure isand that is where it is mostly
(02:31):
uncomfortable. Yeah, I thinkdiscomfort gets a bit of a bad
rap as well because we thinkthat it's a negative but
actually A lot of the timesbeing uncomfortable,
especially in a businessworld, being uncomfortable is
a sign that we're doingsomething that's new and
different and it's a goodthing. So I think you can get
addicted to that feeling aswell of that adrenaline rush
(02:54):
of doing something that isoutside of your comfort zone.
So I think if you reframe itto excitement rather than
fear, I think it can make areally big difference. But I
really like that saying. Itwas said to me when I was
competing in Strong Womenyears ago, You know, and
somebody who I think wasrunning out of patience with
my whining of things beingheavy and things hurting. And
(03:15):
he just said, if you want tobe any good at this sport, you
need to get comfortable withbeing uncomfortable. You know,
and I remember just drivinghome from training that night
thinking actually that'spretty good life advice as
well. Not somebody I wouldnormally take life advice from
that's for sure, but it wasdefinitely good advice at the
time. So yes, it's one thatdefinitely I hear myself
saying and definitely say toothers too. You know it when
(03:38):
it has that impact and thatknock between the eyes. Oh
yeah. The proper gut punch itwas. I needed to hear it too.
That is good. And do you read?I do, not as much as I would
like to. I tend to listen toaudiobooks, sort of
self-development I tend tolisten to on audio books, but
I like to sit and readfiction. I've got half the
(04:01):
habit recently, so I did openand start a book two nights
ago, but I keep falling asleepin the first chapter. So I
need to kind of get back intothe swing of it. But I do like
a good learning audio book.But I also just like to get
lost in fiction as well. Yeah,yeah me too. I like to, I love
(04:21):
audiobooks because I canmultitask and I'm sort of at
the same time but I do like, Iread on my Kindle too and I
like to do both but it's justnice. I love when you get a
really good fiction on the goand you can't wait to get back
to it but it's kind of thathabitual thing. I like to do
it Before I go to bed in thathabit or if I've got some time
(04:41):
in the day. But if you get outof the habit of it or if you
run out of time, it is hard tokeep on top of. But it's nice
if you get a goodself-development book and
that's one that you stop deadthinking about. Ooh, that was
good. That was worth reading.So can you give us a brief
overview of what you'reworking on at the moment and
what you do? Yeah, so I kindof had two key strands to the
(05:03):
work that I do. So one of thestrands is the work that I do
with companies, withorganizations that tends to be
leadership work, although I dowork with individuals as well
around behavior skills, softskills, but it's predominantly
leadership work and aspiringleaders. So I've got some
really lovely projects withdifferent companies at the
(05:24):
moment of working with theirleaders and their managers,
but also Helping develop someof the people in the
organization that have gotreal potential as well and
starting a new project, be atwo-year program with a global
company. So it's going tocover people from Europe and
EMEA. I don't know how theypronounce it. I keep calling
(05:46):
it E-M-E-A, which is theregion, but apparently there's
a different way of saying it.So that's kind of the
corporate work that I do. Andthen I support people that are
in the public sector or from apublic sector background who
are aspiring business owners,support them to build their
businesses and then supportthat transition out of the
public sector intoself-employment because it's
(06:09):
very different places, a verydifferent world.
Self-employment to the publicsector is a very different
world. And I really like thedynamic, the characters of
people That are in the publicsector. I'm ex-police myself,
so I get it. I get thechallenges, you know, coming
out of big institutions,especially people that have
been there for a long time isa big step. You know, coming
(06:31):
out of a very secure placewith lots of people and lots
of ways of doing things, Ithink is a real shift. So
yeah, that's kind of the mainwork that I do with
individuals. That's reallyinteresting because we were
just talking earlier about,for example, the different
vocabulary and coming back,working from the public sector
(06:53):
and going into the privatesector with your own business.
You don't know what you don'tknow and there is a very steep
learning curve. So is thereanything else that you've
noticed apart from that, thatlike people don't know what
they don't know? Now you'vebeen able to identify the
pitfalls, for example. One ofthe things that I chose very
early on to do was to workacross all of the different
(07:15):
public sectors. So there arecoaches out there, there's
tutors, you know, teachers totutors, and there are tutor
coaches, there are people thatsupport that strand. There's
quite a lot of people thatwill help a specific role to a
specific business. But Idecided early on that I wanted
to help people across all ofthe public sectors and the
(07:37):
main reason for that is thatwe're very good at what we do
within our own individualpublic sectors but we're very
good at doing what we'vealways done and thinking a
certain way and I think whilstthat's an incredible strength
in business you need to learnto think differently you need
to be able to shift yourthinking you need to be able
(08:00):
to see things from differentperspectives And I think
there's a real strength inbringing different people from
different organisationstogether, because they're all
bringing excellent skill sets,excellent ways of thinking,
but all slightly different.And so when you put those
people in a room together,you're bringing lots of
strengths to the table, butlots of different perspectives
(08:21):
as well. So I could have nicheto work just with people
coming out of the police intotheir different businesses.
But for me, that felt Highrisk if you like in that you
are bringing people who have avery similar background, very
similar way of thinking, verysimilar way of doing things
together and for me it wasreally important to help to
(08:44):
build that gap, bridge thatgap to help them to meet other
people that think differentlyand also to create a new
network for them as wellbecause there's lots of
Facebook groups where policepeople are with police people,
NHS are with NHS, But actuallywe can create a really strong
support network by bringingpeople together as business
(09:06):
owners with a similarbackground and so that for me
was a decision I made earlyon. So far it's proven to be
the right decision and I thinkfor me the variety in those
conversations is what providesthe value and that richness if
you like in the way Thatpeople talk about things and
(09:28):
the way that people approachthings. And like you said,
that communication ofrecognizing, oh, well, what
does that mean? Like, I'venever heard of that. Whereas
we just talk our own language,don't we? It's about secrecy.
When you're in anorganization, we'll use lots
of abbreviations and only weknow what that means. It's
great in the organizationuntil you try and have that
(09:48):
conversation outside. And soyou're right. You know, some
of the terminology and theways of thinking is Very set
in its routines. So being ableto kind of challenge that and
help people to translate thatinto real world language, but
also translating the businessworld language for them,
(10:09):
because you know, where do youneed a funnel in the public
service? Where do you needsales and marketing in the
public service? You don't needany of that. You don't need
audience building or leadgeneration because most of
what's in the public sector isabout reducing demand. And,
you know, dealing with peoplethe first time so they don't
come back is the completeopposite to business. And also
(10:32):
you don't talk about what youdo. You know, I spent 20 years
looking around the room wherepeople say, Oh, what do you do
for a living? And I'd be like,yeah, I make, I work in a
factory or, you know, I wouldjust make a working admin
because you just didn't talkabout what you do. Whereas
when you're self-employed,everybody needs to know what
(10:52):
you do. And it's reallyuncomfortable, you know, we
have hidden social mediaprofiles. I've got people in
the group who are, you know,have a false name and a false
photograph because that'stheir social media profile. I
still don't know who they are.Yeah, I am learning a little
bit more about theirbusinesses, but they're still,
you know, it takes a while tobuild up that trust and build
(11:16):
up that rapport. And I'm okaywith that because they totally
get it. But it means thatpeople being visible on social
media is a big challenge for alot of people. They're not
used to being out theretalking about what they do.
That is so interesting becausea big part of my business is
visibility and helping peopleto get visible and for a
(11:37):
number of reasons that's notpossible and one of my
podcasts we talked about thethreat of violence from an
ex-partner so that createdthat visibility problem and
now you raise a reallyinteresting point from people
who for whatever they've donein their job they've had to
not be visible completely andthen they're thrust for
(11:59):
whatever reason into thisworld and you're asking them
to do the very thing thatthey've not been allowed to do
and not been able to do for20-25 years and as you say you
know what's a lead magnetwhat's a funnel and you've got
you've got to so in order tobuild this business visibility
is the primary gift that youhave you've got to come on
(12:19):
these podcasts you've got totalk about what it is that you
do and I think these peoplelike me will struggle to
articulate concisely what itis that they do because we're
not used to saying hi I'mAmanda and I do this and I'm
really good at this becauseI've got so interesting that
you say that and I absolutelyget it I and I hadn't
(12:41):
considered it in in that waybecause we don't Hello, I'm
Zoe Thompson.What's a funnel? What is it?
(13:05):
How do you get one of those?You know, I thought it was
this mechanism that I had tobuy and someone would help put
stuff in it. I just couldn'twork out what it was. But the
funny thing was when Irealised what it was, I was
just like, is that it? You'reright, the public sector is
(13:31):
very different and the fundingis very different and how we
process people is verydifferent. But it's really
fascinating. But I still comeback to you don't know what
you don't know. And for me, Ididn't know what the questions
were that I needed to ask. Thename of the meeting assistant
isThat's really, really
(14:11):
interesting. So what aboutyour leadership journey then?
So tell me about some keymilestones that have shaped
your career. Well, it's reallystrange. I was typing out,
rewriting the bio on thewebsite for a talk that I'm
doing next week. And I waslooking at it and I was
thinking, you know, it sayslike how many years in
(14:31):
leadership and then how manyyears in coaching. And I did
20 years in the place, but 15of that was in leadership. And
that I hadn't really looked atit as like a percentage
before, you know, when youjust suddenly see it and I've
written that bio hundreds oftimes over the last seven
years. But it's the first timethat I've really looked at it
(14:52):
and thought actually most ofmy service was in leadership
roles. So I was 18 when Istarted, went in an entry
level role, you know, workedon the reception desk at the
local police station. Reiki,that was an eye opening job.
You have to read a book aboutthat on its own. That is a
long story. Definitely somestories I could tell you from
(15:13):
that job that, you know, butthat I, it was just this whole
world that was out there thatI didn't know existed. So the
learning curve was, was hugefor that. But I'd only, I only
did for a couple of years inthat role. And then supervisor
row at a different stationcame up, didn't have a great
(15:34):
supervisor where I was. And Ikind of had that mentality, I
think it's that young personmentality, isn't it of, well,
I can't do a worse job thanThis person's doing so let me
put, let me just apply for itand see what happens. And
that's really where myleadership journey started.
Oh, they're the bestleadership teachers. Bad
leaders in my opinion are thebest leadership teachers.
(15:56):
Definitely a good teacher ofwhat, what not to do. So I
would have been in my earlytwenties when I started
supervising. Yeah. And I wassupervising a great bunch of
people, but you know, You'vegot certain characters in the
police because you have to bethick skinned. You can't do
(16:16):
these jobs unless you've gotthis level of thick skin,
which means they're greatpeople. They are great at
their jobs. Quite oftenthey're quite challenging. To
manage and you have to findways to be able to communicate
with them, to be able tounderstand what's important to
them. What do they need? Andyou're also recognizing that
how they're communicating withyou doesn't necessarily like
(16:39):
their intention and yourperception is not always the
same. Um, so I learned,learned really quickly and
then I was in seniormanagement at 30. 30. So I was
senior manager as civilianpolice staff. To a department
that had senior policeofficers in terms of service.
(17:01):
So they were people that weremy parents' age. They had
children that were my age. Sothat went down really well. As
you can imagine, a very maledominated environment, very
experienced police officers,very, very good at their jobs.
But they were being told whatto do by this young female
that wasn't even a policeofficer. You know, and was
(17:22):
telling them what to do. Soagain, communication so
important there of learning,finding my own way of, okay,
how do I, how do I make itwork with people? Because I
had a job to do, they had ajob to do and being able to
work that out. So that, youknow, I think they were
probably the two key ones, youknow, being into going into
leadership in, you know, myearly, very early twenties and
(17:45):
then being in, SeniorManagement by 30". 30". The
leadership role must have beenat 21 because I had my son at
22 and I was already in thatjob then. So I think I was in
leadership at 21, seniormanagement by 30. 30. So it's
a very young, very young ageswhen you're managing people
(18:07):
that are older than you. Soyou do have to learn to work
the room. You do have to learnto work with people because
You know, that trust andrapport takes a little while
to build. And then I went intobusiness change not long after
that. That's what I did forthe last couple of years. So
actually, you know, a lot ofthe work that I do now with
(18:28):
leadership training,leadership coaching and
coaching in general, I had theexperience before I learned
the frameworks and the modelsand the, oh yeah, well, you
can do this and you can take,you can go around this and you
can communicate this way. AndI, you know, learned that
through experience before Ilearned, The text book way of
doing things.I want to say tricky people
(19:06):
that I don't I don't meantricky as in that I mean to
try and navigate that you knowthe personalities and the
experience that they had andyou were obviously the best
person for that job and theywould have seen that but I
imagine it had its moments butwas there anyone that inspired
you or did you have any rolemodels? Yeah I'm not there's
and actually we're really goodfriends now so the first boss
(19:27):
that I had when I went intothat first leadership role She
was brilliant. She would talkme through things and it won't
be any surprise that she's aleadership trainer and a coach
now because that was exactlyhow she supported me. She
didn't tell me what to do. Shewould guide and support and
coach. And so I think that forme, not just about learning
(19:49):
how to be a really good leaderand a really good role model,
she also She helped me andshowed me how to use that sort
of coaching technique to getthe best out of people. And we
took different paths in thepolice for years, always kept
in touch afterwards. And thenshe left the organization. I
(20:10):
left the organization andwe've maintained that
friendship. We still catch upnow and kind of talk about
things and things that aregoing on. It's great to be
able to have that. And I thinkthere were, I think later on,
I kind of got to that pointwhere I thought there was a
(20:32):
limit and I'm sure this willprobably resonate with other
people too, because I didn'tfeel like I, when I looked
around, I didn't see othersenior managers who were like
me. You know, I would seecertain people That were
really good managers, but Ididn't feel that I was like
(20:54):
them. And I found it reallyhard to think, well, can I be
my character? Can I be my kindof person and get to that next
level? And then I met somebodyelse and worked with somebody
else who was brilliant andreally good with people,
really funny, used humor, wasreally laid back, really
(21:14):
chilled out about stuff, butstraight down the line. And
that was the first time I sawsomebody who I thought,
actually, you know, I do see abit of myself in somebody
who's at that level and reallysuccessful at what they do.
But I think he was a bit of arole model. No, he was a role
model too. So I think, youknow, you, I think with
anybody, we're always lookingfor somebody who we identify
(21:35):
with, aren't we? We'resomebody, we want to see
somebody who does what we doin the way that we want to do
it in a way that has a similaralignment to our values or
does things in a certain Sofor me that's where the
coaching and mentoring came inbecause I was one of the first
people as a female, as policestaff,
(22:12):
Supervising and managingpolice officers so it was
quite natural that they wouldask me to support other people
coming up through. I think youdo look for people who look
like you or people who behavelike you or people who lead
like you or communicate likeyou. Sometimes that'd be
somebody who Looks like you aswell, but sometimes it's just
actually, you're my kind ofperson and I see you being
(22:33):
successful. And that gives mesome confidence that actually
I can do things my own way.And I know, you know, you'll
talk about this with peoplethat you work with in terms of
communicate how youcommunicate. If you're not
somebody, I am never going tobe somebody who's a shoes,
handbags and nails person.Yeah it won't work and my kind
(22:56):
of take on that is I wouldhave a chat with an individual
and ask them their preferenceshow do you like to be
communicated with and I try tomold into that but I'm never
going to be the you know standup and give a nice little
welcome speech person I willdo everything with humor and
you know if there's You knowif there's a mistake we'll sit
down and we'll sort it outtogether but and I'm also not
I'm not very directive I won'tbe in sort of given orders but
(23:19):
that brings me on to my nextquestion and how important do
you think communication is inleadership but it's all about
style and what you observe soso what are your thoughts on
that? Well I think you have tobe authentic and I think it's
also a massively overused wordas well it's like vulnerable
and authentic like everythingthey're just like the key
(23:39):
words at the moment aren'tthey But I do think it is
important. I think it isimportant that you work and
show up and behave in a waythat aligns with your values.
And I think it's importantthat you are who you are
because that's who people needto connect with. So, you know,
like I said, I am not somebodywho is going to show up in the
(24:01):
Gucci shoes with the handbagand the nails. I'll probably
be in Jordans and I'llprobably be in jeans and
sweats. Until the last minutewhere I'm like, okay, let me
just put some boots on beforeI step on stage. The first,
the first talk I did at ExcelLondon, I wore my Jordans. I
had heels in my bag, butbecause it was the first time
there and I was a little bitnervous and there were wires
(24:24):
everywhere on the stage. And Ijust said to the audience, I
said, I'm keeping my Jordanson because me, heels, nerves,
and lots of wires on the stageis not going to end well.
Luckily, I was talking aboutimposter and confidence and
stress, so I managed to weaveit into the talk. I just said,
I'm not, I can put my heelson, but I'm pretty sure that's
(24:48):
not what you're here for. SoI'm going to keep my Jordans
on and then not worry aboutfalling over. Just talk about
what I'm here to talk about.But I think that's important.
You know, I think people wantto connect with you. People
want to know a little bitabout you, but actually just
want, I think the energy isreally important and if you're
trying to bring a differentpersona, the energy is off and
(25:11):
whether you're into the wheelof energy and all of that
stuff, you feel it. You knowthat something is not right
and you might not know what itis because you don't know that
person, but you know thatsomething is off and people
pick up on that. And I thinkif you, I think people want to
be real. People want to talkto, People with experiences,
(25:32):
they want to know the good,the bad, and the ugly. They
don't want the polishedversion. Social media is a
polished version. The polishedversion doesn't help people.
They need the reality. And Ithink social media is your
shop window, but certainly inmy membership, in the Facebook
group, I try to be as honestas possible about, okay, this
(25:52):
is how it is. Even seven yearsin, this is how it is. This is
how it is for me. This is howit's probably going to be for
you. And this is how you workthrough it. I think you do
need to be authentic. I havemixed feelings about how
vulnerable you need to be. Ithink you need to be honest. I
think integrity is reallyimportant. I don't believe
(26:13):
that you need to beareverything. I think, you know,
for me personally, I thinkthere's a point where What's
behind closed doors staysbehind closed doors. And I
think there's a level ofprofessionalism around that. I
think that's my age and I'mprobably a little bit old
school. But you know, when Istarted working, you didn't
(26:34):
bring your home life intowork. You just didn't do that.
So I guess for me, there'sprobably a shift. I know
younger people in coming intothe working world are coming
into a very different world.So... No, it's interesting. I
think that what you mentionedabout being unpolished, My
kind of personal crusade is tostay away from this
(26:55):
perfectionism and social mediafor me my mission is we have
to let younger people see thatit's okay to show up with no
makeup on and your hair is notperfect because As the mother
of two daughters, I've alwaystried to show them that that's
not how the world is. You showup as you and to get yourself
(27:16):
into that position of fearwhere I can't go out because
my lips aren't right orwhatever. So that's always
been a personal thing for me.So I'll always show up as
myself. And the vulnerabilityside, for me, there's a bit of
vulnerability versus behindthe scenes. So as a business
owner, I'm happy to sharebehind the scenes. This is me
planning next week's stuff butthe vulnerability level
(27:37):
sometimes I see stuff and I'mnot going to give any specific
examples but sometimes itmakes me uncomfortable when
you've got someone there andyou know and I'm a trained
mental health first aider forexample so I'm honing in on
stuff And I'm thinking that'snot good, but I can't reach
out to that person becauseit's not appropriate. Is it
(27:58):
real? Is it not? Do you reallywant to be sharing this? And
it worries me. And thensometimes you see some of the
trends and that scares me too.And again, underlined, I'm the
mother of two daughters. Whatare they seeing that I'm not
seeing? And for me, it's thevulnerability and the behind
the scenes. You'll see alittle bit of my life, but you
won't see everything. I thinkfor me that's the authenticity
(28:22):
because I'm not somebody whoshares a huge amount. Like
even, you know, people who areIn my friendship circle,
they'll say, oh, you'll talk alittle bit, but you don't, you
know, you don't ever go intotoo much detail. So it's not,
that's not authentic for me.So if you ever see me doing
that, that's a performancebecause that's not what I
(28:42):
would do when the camerasaren't rolling. Do you know
what I mean? When I'm nothitting record, you won't ever
see or hear me do that. I willshare things if I feel there's
a purpose for me to share it.So I'll talk about certain
things on different podcastsif I think that's going to
help the audience, but I'm notgoing to share that with
anybody and everybody becausethere's no real purpose or
(29:03):
intention there. You won'tever see me cry on camera in
the same way that you won'tever see me dance on camera.
It's just not me. It's not whoI am and that wouldn't be a
real version of me. So that'snot... It would be a
performance. Yeah, that isalso the same reason why you
(29:24):
won't see me dancing oncamera. I'm the mother of two
daughters. I don't think theywould survive that if their
mum danced. But I have said,which brings me on to my next
question, how comfortable areyou showing up with your
audience? So the only timeyou'll see me dancing on
social media is when I make myfirst million. Happy to put
that out there. So if you dosee me dancing, You can come
(29:46):
on and celebrate with me. Buthow comfortable are you
showing off for your audienceon social media? So you're
obviously happy to go on tothe lives, to the videos, that
kind of thing. So where do youdraw the line? What kind of
level are you comfortable atdoing that? I think it's
following the trends, I thinkis probably where the line is
(30:08):
for me. There'll be certainthings that come up and I
think, oh, that's pretty cool.But that's not for me. And
then I just, you know, let letpeople do their thing. Like,
like, I don't have a problemwith it. I'm not a massive fan
of social media, I'll betotally honest. But I'm, you
know, I'm not somebody thatwould ever like comment or or
is is what it is. It is whatit is. It works for some
(30:31):
people. If you're reallycomfortable sharing that part
of your life with youraudience, You do you because
those people who need to hearthat are going to connect with
you to hear that and that'sokay. I think for me, over the
years, I've found ways ofsharing enough about my life
that gives people enough togo, okay, well, we like you or
(30:53):
we don't like you or thatresonates with me or it
doesn't. It's enough forpeople to, you know, they get
a couple of layers of this iswho I am and this is what I'm
about. But that's that's asfar as it needs to get their
professional relationships. Atthe end of the day, the people
that I work with, it's aprofessional relationship. And
whilst I get on really well, Ilove the clients that I work
(31:16):
with. I still need to maintainthat level of professionalism
as well. So they don't need toknow everything, but you know,
they know, they know theimportant stuff. And then, you
know, there's other stuff thatI choose to keep private as
I'm sure my clients choose tokeep things private as well.
So, I think from, you know,I'm happy doing their lives.
I'm happy speaking on stage.I'm happy doing podcasts. I
(31:40):
don't, you know, I always sayto people, you know, ask, ask
whatever you want to ask. AndI will, you know, I'll filter
the answer to whatever I feelcomfortable with or
appropriate with, whatever isappropriate. But yeah, I
haven't, you know, I don'tthink there's anything that's
kind of, I think it's more, Iguess more of the personal
(32:01):
stuff because I thinksometimes there's a respect in
that line, but I've never beenput in that position where I
felt that I've had to say, I'mnot going to answer that. I
think most people are prettyrespectful in this environment
of not asking too much. Soyeah, I don't think there's
anything. Anything so far? No,that's good. I think you're
(32:23):
right. It's a business,professional relationship and
whatever it is that you'recomfortable with sharing. Some
people, and that's fine, theyshare everything about their
personality and that's theirbrand, is probably the word
we're looking for. The brandis, this is me and this is me,
this is how I show up. Otherpeople are a little bit more
guarded. I myself,everything's not out there but
(32:47):
I like to put a bit of humorin some things which reflects
probably reflects mypersonality but it doesn't
reveal too much about thatbecause you know we coach
people and we have to havethat level of Professionalism,
you know, if you've sharedsome situation about yourself,
it doesn't kind of work it inthat field. Yeah, I think you
(33:08):
need to show your characterbecause that's what people
connect with. You need to showenough for people to build
that rapport, build thatrelationship and build that
trust with. We know it's thelike, no trust is what people
connect with. So I think youhave to be prepared to show
something. It's because you'rea shop window ultimately. So
(33:31):
you have to be in that shopwindow for people. It's that
visibility. People need to seeenough of you to make that
decision of whether or notthey might ever want to work
with you. And that will becharacter as much as that's
going to be professionalcredibility. So I think
sometimes you can see, youknow, I've certainly connected
with people online. And theydefinitely know their staff,
(33:55):
but I can't connect with them.There's something that I just
can't connect with, whetherit's a difference in values or
a difference in, you know,whatever it is, I can't
connect with them. I respecttheir credibility, their
professionalism and what theydo, but they're not somebody
who I would ever choose towork with. And that's going to
be the same for people whenthey see me online and I'm
(34:18):
okay with that. You know,there's plenty of coaches out
there. There's plenty ofpeople that do what I do. So
people should, you know,people do have the right to
make the choice and theyshould have the right to make
the choice, but I think we doneed to put ourselves out
there a little bit to be ableto, you know, You can't show
the brand without showing someof your character. I use, like
(34:40):
you, I use humor a lot. Forsome people, they really like
that. They like the fact thatthings feel quite light. They
feel easygoing, even thoughit's tough stuff. But I'm sure
there's probably quite a lotof people out there going, she
ain't as funny as she thinksshe is and they continue
scrolling and that's the endof it and I'm okay with that.
And you know what, youprobably wouldn't be able to
(35:01):
work with those people anyway,but that word that you use,
connect, that's it, that's thekey word. If someone connects
with what you're putting outthere and what you're saying
and your personality, they'rethe people that you want to
work with and that want towork with you, that's the Holy
Grail. So what legacy do youhope to leave as a leader?
Well, I think just in general,I think it's a great rule of
(35:22):
thumb to try and leave peoplebetter than when you first met
them. I think just in general,try and leave this world a
little bit of a better placein terms of what you can
control and what you caninfluence. I've got a son
who's 22 now, so there'salways been some in terms of
legacy around bringing up ayoung man in this world that
(35:44):
is a good man. You know, and,and treats people well and
respectfully. So that's alwaysbeen really important. And
I'm, I'm glad that he's agood, he's a good person.
Obviously I'm slightly biased,but he's a good human. So
there's that because it's notjust, you know, what we leave
behind. It's also who we leavebehind that will also have
(36:04):
their circle of control andinfluence. I think as a
leader, I think, you know,leadership is really changing,
you know, that what you need.In terms of skill set and who
you need to show up as aleader now is very different
to how it was when I was inleadership roles. I think it
was changing the last fewyears that I was in there. I
(36:26):
think it was definitelystarting to shift, but I think
just being able to equipleaders with those tools and
help them to see things fromdifferent perspectives, that
legacy then spreads becausethey've got teams of 10 or 20
or big departments or, youknow, full organizations. So
there's some legacy there ofjust supporting them, but it's
(36:48):
not always about giving themthe tools. Sometimes the tools
are already there. No, it'sjust helping them to work it
through and giving them thatsupport and that guidance as
the role model did for me whenI first started out as just
helping people find thatconfidence to be the leader
that they know they can be andnot having to conform to What
(37:08):
they think is a good leader,you know, it's not all
shoulder pads and heels, youknow, bright red nails and or,
you know, gray suits andspeaking in a certain way and
using certain language.Actually, you can be you and
lead really well. And I thinkthe coaching culture that's
(37:29):
emerging, it's probably beenaround longer than I
discovered it, but I had amanager that was a really good
coach and I didn't realisewhat it was until I studied it
myself. And that's why Iwanted to do it because I saw
it in action and I justthought, wow, this is amazing.
I could have benefited thisbenefit from so much when I
(37:50):
was younger and when I saw itin action and when I saw the
benefits that I wastransformed. But for me, the,
you know, the excellence inleadership that can be found
in it, it's so subtle and it'sso I can't even think of the
words to describe it. The goodleader almost fades into the
background because the work isdone, because they're doing it
(38:11):
in such a nuanced way andobviously opposite of
directive. And I love that. Ilove that it's becoming more
widespread and people areembracing that kind of
coaching culture. But itwasn't around when I was in my
20s and it would have made abig difference Because you
don't realise you have thepower within you and you've
(38:32):
just got this magical personthat can set you on that path.
But I'm just so grateful tohave discovered it and I'm
even more grateful that Imanaged to study it. And I
love it. I get in my geek zonewhen other people have done it
as well. I just really lovethe conversation. But that
legacy question, I love itbecause most people have a
similar answer and I love itwhen they say, you know, I
want people to walk awayfeeling better when they've
(38:53):
spoken with me or leave theworld a better place or pass
on that legacy to the nextgeneration or their children.
And it's just a niceopportunity to sort of stop
and think, well, what is mylegacy? And I love that people
sort of it's always it's ahumble question who always
give a really humbling answer.And I do love the answers to
it. But we do all have animpact. You know, we're here.
(39:15):
We're here in this world.We're all going to have an
impact. We need to be mindfuland conscious of the impact
that we're having. Becausewe're going to leave an impact
either way so we might as wellchoose what impact we want to
have. Exactly and the beautyof it you're never going to
fully know what the impactwas. You may sometimes someone
(39:35):
might come back but you justnever know what impact you'll
have had on other people and Ilove that you genuinely just
don't know and it's nice tokind of stop and think well
actually I could have had. Youdon't know what people are
thinking or how you might haveinspired someone to take
action and do something. Sowhere can we find out more
about you online? Where can wefind out about your business?
(39:57):
Because it sounds absolutelywonderful. Thank you. So if
you head to the websitezoethompson.uk, you can find
me on the socials there. I'mpretty much where you would
expect to find me. I'm not onTwitter, I am everywhere else.
Mostly active on Instagram.There's some stories there, a
(40:18):
little bit of behind thescenes, but no dancing. No
dancing. Well, I will put allthose links in the show notes
to the podcast. Thank you somuch for joining me, Zoe. It's
been an absolute pleasure. Ihave loved every second. It's
just been a real joy to talkto you. Thank you. Thank you
for listening today andspecial thanks to my fantastic
(40:39):
guest Zoe Thompson for sharingher incredible story with us.
If you want to increase saleswith your visibility strategy,
don't miss out on my freeresources. You can find the
links in the podcast notes aswell as the links that Zoe
mentioned in the podcast. Joinme on the next episode for
more incredible stories andinsights. You can follow me on
Instagram at coachamandajeanor visit my website
amandajean.co.uk. Bye for now.
Hi, I'm Amanda Jayne andwelcome to the Communicate
With Confidence Podcast. Myaim is to take the fear out of
communicating and make it easyand fun. On this podcast, I'm
going to be talking abouteverything to do with good
communication, how we canconnect with our audience, get
better at speaking and givingpresentations, increase
visibility and ultimately getmore sales. I'll also be
(00:21):
talking to some incrediblepeople about their business
and I'll be getting theirinsights on how they view
communication and howcomfortable they are showing
up in person and on socialmedia. So let's get started!
Hello everyone and welcome tothe Communicate With
Confidence Podcast. I'm yourhost Amanda Jane and today I
(00:43):
have with me Zoe Thompson,coach, trainer and speaker.
Hello Zoe. Hi, thank you forhaving me in. Thank you for
joining me. I'm really lookingforward to finding all about
your business because I'm inyour Facebook group and I can
see all the fantastic workyou're doing. But for the
moment I'm going to be reallynosy and ask you my famous
three questions now. So, Doyou have a favourite
(01:05):
motivational song? I do andit's Golden by Jill Scott.
It's love, I love the tune butthe lyrics really resonate
with me. Oh I'm not sure. It'san oldie but it's a goodie.
I'll rip that up and put thaton the Spotify list,
fantastic. And do you have afavourite motivational quote?
(01:26):
Probably not one that can beAttributed to anybody, but
anyone that knows me andspends any time with me will
hear me say two thingsfrequently. It is what it is.
I say that a lot, like shrugit off. It is what it is and
get comfortable with beinguncomfortable. That's probably
the two things that you wouldhear me say. Yeah, good piece
(01:47):
of advice, it is one of those,nothing will change, but that
get comfortable beinguncomfortable, that's a really
interesting one because yourhead stops you in your tracks,
doesn't it? Yeah, and I thinkthere's lots of, you know,
when we talk about steppingoutside comfort zone or when
we talk about doing somethingnew, but I think for me and my
journey, every time I'veachieved something, it has
(02:09):
needed me to kind of getcomfortable with being
uncomfortable. So there's alittle bit of a story behind
it, but And that is alwayswhere the magic is when I try
and visualise a ring, I'mstepping in the ring and the
people that go in the ring,that's where the success is,
that's where the adventure isand that is where it is mostly
(02:31):
uncomfortable. Yeah, I thinkdiscomfort gets a bit of a bad
rap as well because we thinkthat it's a negative but
actually A lot of the timesbeing uncomfortable,
especially in a businessworld, being uncomfortable is
a sign that we're doingsomething that's new and
different and it's a goodthing. So I think you can get
addicted to that feeling aswell of that adrenaline rush
(02:54):
of doing something that isoutside of your comfort zone.
So I think if you reframe itto excitement rather than
fear, I think it can make areally big difference. But I
really like that saying. Itwas said to me when I was
competing in Strong Womenyears ago, You know, and
somebody who I think wasrunning out of patience with
my whining of things beingheavy and things hurting. And
(03:15):
he just said, if you want tobe any good at this sport, you
need to get comfortable withbeing uncomfortable. You know,
and I remember just drivinghome from training that night
thinking actually that'spretty good life advice as
well. Not somebody I wouldnormally take life advice from
that's for sure, but it wasdefinitely good advice at the
time. So yes, it's one thatdefinitely I hear myself
saying and definitely say toothers too. You know it when
(03:38):
it has that impact and thatknock between the eyes. Oh
yeah. The proper gut punch itwas. I needed to hear it too.
That is good. And do you read?I do, not as much as I would
like to. I tend to listen toaudiobooks, sort of
self-development I tend tolisten to on audio books, but
I like to sit and readfiction. I've got half the
(04:01):
habit recently, so I did openand start a book two nights
ago, but I keep falling asleepin the first chapter. So I
need to kind of get back intothe swing of it. But I do like
a good learning audio book.But I also just like to get
lost in fiction as well. Yeah,yeah me too. I like to, I love
(04:21):
audiobooks because I canmultitask and I'm sort of at
the same time but I do like, Iread on my Kindle too and I
like to do both but it's justnice. I love when you get a
really good fiction on the goand you can't wait to get back
to it but it's kind of thathabitual thing. I like to do
it Before I go to bed in thathabit or if I've got some time
(04:41):
in the day. But if you get outof the habit of it or if you
run out of time, it is hard tokeep on top of. But it's nice
if you get a goodself-development book and
that's one that you stop deadthinking about. Ooh, that was
good. That was worth reading.So can you give us a brief
overview of what you'reworking on at the moment and
what you do? Yeah, so I kindof had two key strands to the
(05:03):
work that I do. So one of thestrands is the work that I do
with companies, withorganizations that tends to be
leadership work, although I dowork with individuals as well
around behavior skills, softskills, but it's predominantly
leadership work and aspiringleaders. So I've got some
really lovely projects withdifferent companies at the
(05:24):
moment of working with theirleaders and their managers,
but also Helping develop someof the people in the
organization that have gotreal potential as well and
starting a new project, be atwo-year program with a global
company. So it's going tocover people from Europe and
EMEA. I don't know how theypronounce it. I keep calling
(05:46):
it E-M-E-A, which is theregion, but apparently there's
a different way of saying it.So that's kind of the
corporate work that I do. Andthen I support people that are
in the public sector or from apublic sector background who
are aspiring business owners,support them to build their
businesses and then supportthat transition out of the
public sector intoself-employment because it's
(06:09):
very different places, a verydifferent world.
Self-employment to the publicsector is a very different
world. And I really like thedynamic, the characters of
people That are in the publicsector. I'm ex-police myself,
so I get it. I get thechallenges, you know, coming
out of big institutions,especially people that have
been there for a long time isa big step. You know, coming
(06:31):
out of a very secure placewith lots of people and lots
of ways of doing things, Ithink is a real shift. So
yeah, that's kind of the mainwork that I do with
individuals. That's reallyinteresting because we were
just talking earlier about,for example, the different
vocabulary and coming back,working from the public sector
(06:53):
and going into the privatesector with your own business.
You don't know what you don'tknow and there is a very steep
learning curve. So is thereanything else that you've
noticed apart from that, thatlike people don't know what
they don't know? Now you'vebeen able to identify the
pitfalls, for example. One ofthe things that I chose very
early on to do was to workacross all of the different
(07:15):
public sectors. So there arecoaches out there, there's
tutors, you know, teachers totutors, and there are tutor
coaches, there are people thatsupport that strand. There's
quite a lot of people thatwill help a specific role to a
specific business. But Idecided early on that I wanted
to help people across all ofthe public sectors and the
(07:37):
main reason for that is thatwe're very good at what we do
within our own individualpublic sectors but we're very
good at doing what we'vealways done and thinking a
certain way and I think whilstthat's an incredible strength
in business you need to learnto think differently you need
to be able to shift yourthinking you need to be able
(08:00):
to see things from differentperspectives And I think
there's a real strength inbringing different people from
different organisationstogether, because they're all
bringing excellent skill sets,excellent ways of thinking,
but all slightly different.And so when you put those
people in a room together,you're bringing lots of
strengths to the table, butlots of different perspectives
(08:21):
as well. So I could have nicheto work just with people
coming out of the police intotheir different businesses.
But for me, that felt Highrisk if you like in that you
are bringing people who have avery similar background, very
similar way of thinking, verysimilar way of doing things
together and for me it wasreally important to help to
(08:44):
build that gap, bridge thatgap to help them to meet other
people that think differentlyand also to create a new
network for them as wellbecause there's lots of
Facebook groups where policepeople are with police people,
NHS are with NHS, But actuallywe can create a really strong
support network by bringingpeople together as business
(09:06):
owners with a similarbackground and so that for me
was a decision I made earlyon. So far it's proven to be
the right decision and I thinkfor me the variety in those
conversations is what providesthe value and that richness if
you like in the way Thatpeople talk about things and
(09:28):
the way that people approachthings. And like you said,
that communication ofrecognizing, oh, well, what
does that mean? Like, I'venever heard of that. Whereas
we just talk our own language,don't we? It's about secrecy.
When you're in anorganization, we'll use lots
of abbreviations and only weknow what that means. It's
great in the organizationuntil you try and have that
(09:48):
conversation outside. And soyou're right. You know, some
of the terminology and theways of thinking is Very set
in its routines. So being ableto kind of challenge that and
help people to translate thatinto real world language, but
also translating the businessworld language for them,
(10:09):
because you know, where do youneed a funnel in the public
service? Where do you needsales and marketing in the
public service? You don't needany of that. You don't need
audience building or leadgeneration because most of
what's in the public sector isabout reducing demand. And,
you know, dealing with peoplethe first time so they don't
come back is the completeopposite to business. And also
(10:32):
you don't talk about what youdo. You know, I spent 20 years
looking around the room wherepeople say, Oh, what do you do
for a living? And I'd be like,yeah, I make, I work in a
factory or, you know, I wouldjust make a working admin
because you just didn't talkabout what you do. Whereas
when you're self-employed,everybody needs to know what
(10:52):
you do. And it's reallyuncomfortable, you know, we
have hidden social mediaprofiles. I've got people in
the group who are, you know,have a false name and a false
photograph because that'stheir social media profile. I
still don't know who they are.Yeah, I am learning a little
bit more about theirbusinesses, but they're still,
you know, it takes a while tobuild up that trust and build
(11:16):
up that rapport. And I'm okaywith that because they totally
get it. But it means thatpeople being visible on social
media is a big challenge for alot of people. They're not
used to being out theretalking about what they do.
That is so interesting becausea big part of my business is
visibility and helping peopleto get visible and for a
(11:37):
number of reasons that's notpossible and one of my
podcasts we talked about thethreat of violence from an
ex-partner so that createdthat visibility problem and
now you raise a reallyinteresting point from people
who for whatever they've donein their job they've had to
not be visible completely andthen they're thrust for
(11:59):
whatever reason into thisworld and you're asking them
to do the very thing thatthey've not been allowed to do
and not been able to do for20-25 years and as you say you
know what's a lead magnetwhat's a funnel and you've got
you've got to so in order tobuild this business visibility
is the primary gift that youhave you've got to come on
(12:19):
these podcasts you've got totalk about what it is that you
do and I think these peoplelike me will struggle to
articulate concisely what itis that they do because we're
not used to saying hi I'mAmanda and I do this and I'm
really good at this becauseI've got so interesting that
you say that and I absolutelyget it I and I hadn't
(12:41):
considered it in in that waybecause we don't Hello, I'm
Zoe Thompson.What's a funnel? What is it?
(13:05):
How do you get one of those?You know, I thought it was
this mechanism that I had tobuy and someone would help put
stuff in it. I just couldn'twork out what it was. But the
funny thing was when Irealised what it was, I was
just like, is that it? You'reright, the public sector is
(13:31):
very different and the fundingis very different and how we
process people is verydifferent. But it's really
fascinating. But I still comeback to you don't know what
you don't know. And for me, Ididn't know what the questions
were that I needed to ask. Thename of the meeting assistant
isThat's really, really
(14:11):
interesting. So what aboutyour leadership journey then?
So tell me about some keymilestones that have shaped
your career. Well, it's reallystrange. I was typing out,
rewriting the bio on thewebsite for a talk that I'm
doing next week. And I waslooking at it and I was
thinking, you know, it sayslike how many years in
(14:31):
leadership and then how manyyears in coaching. And I did
20 years in the place, but 15of that was in leadership. And
that I hadn't really looked atit as like a percentage
before, you know, when youjust suddenly see it and I've
written that bio hundreds oftimes over the last seven
years. But it's the first timethat I've really looked at it
(14:52):
and thought actually most ofmy service was in leadership
roles. So I was 18 when Istarted, went in an entry
level role, you know, workedon the reception desk at the
local police station. Reiki,that was an eye opening job.
You have to read a book aboutthat on its own. That is a
long story. Definitely somestories I could tell you from
(15:13):
that job that, you know, butthat I, it was just this whole
world that was out there thatI didn't know existed. So the
learning curve was, was hugefor that. But I'd only, I only
did for a couple of years inthat role. And then supervisor
row at a different stationcame up, didn't have a great
(15:34):
supervisor where I was. And Ikind of had that mentality, I
think it's that young personmentality, isn't it of, well,
I can't do a worse job thanThis person's doing so let me
put, let me just apply for itand see what happens. And
that's really where myleadership journey started.
Oh, they're the bestleadership teachers. Bad
leaders in my opinion are thebest leadership teachers.
(15:56):
Definitely a good teacher ofwhat, what not to do. So I
would have been in my earlytwenties when I started
supervising. Yeah. And I wassupervising a great bunch of
people, but you know, You'vegot certain characters in the
police because you have to bethick skinned. You can't do
(16:16):
these jobs unless you've gotthis level of thick skin,
which means they're greatpeople. They are great at
their jobs. Quite oftenthey're quite challenging. To
manage and you have to findways to be able to communicate
with them, to be able tounderstand what's important to
them. What do they need? Andyou're also recognizing that
how they're communicating withyou doesn't necessarily like
(16:39):
their intention and yourperception is not always the
same. Um, so I learned,learned really quickly and
then I was in seniormanagement at 30. 30. So I was
senior manager as civilianpolice staff. To a department
that had senior policeofficers in terms of service.
(17:01):
So they were people that weremy parents' age. They had
children that were my age. Sothat went down really well. As
you can imagine, a very maledominated environment, very
experienced police officers,very, very good at their jobs.
But they were being told whatto do by this young female
that wasn't even a policeofficer. You know, and was
(17:22):
telling them what to do. Soagain, communication so
important there of learning,finding my own way of, okay,
how do I, how do I make itwork with people? Because I
had a job to do, they had ajob to do and being able to
work that out. So that, youknow, I think they were
probably the two key ones, youknow, being into going into
leadership in, you know, myearly, very early twenties and
(17:45):
then being in, SeniorManagement by 30". 30". The
leadership role must have beenat 21 because I had my son at
22 and I was already in thatjob then. So I think I was in
leadership at 21, seniormanagement by 30. 30. So it's
a very young, very young ageswhen you're managing people
(18:07):
that are older than you. Soyou do have to learn to work
the room. You do have to learnto work with people because
You know, that trust andrapport takes a little while
to build. And then I went intobusiness change not long after
that. That's what I did forthe last couple of years. So
actually, you know, a lot ofthe work that I do now with
(18:28):
leadership training,leadership coaching and
coaching in general, I had theexperience before I learned
the frameworks and the modelsand the, oh yeah, well, you
can do this and you can take,you can go around this and you
can communicate this way. AndI, you know, learned that
through experience before Ilearned, The text book way of
doing things.I want to say tricky people
(19:06):
that I don't I don't meantricky as in that I mean to
try and navigate that you knowthe personalities and the
experience that they had andyou were obviously the best
person for that job and theywould have seen that but I
imagine it had its moments butwas there anyone that inspired
you or did you have any rolemodels? Yeah I'm not there's
and actually we're really goodfriends now so the first boss
(19:27):
that I had when I went intothat first leadership role She
was brilliant. She would talkme through things and it won't
be any surprise that she's aleadership trainer and a coach
now because that was exactlyhow she supported me. She
didn't tell me what to do. Shewould guide and support and
coach. And so I think that forme, not just about learning
(19:49):
how to be a really good leaderand a really good role model,
she also She helped me andshowed me how to use that sort
of coaching technique to getthe best out of people. And we
took different paths in thepolice for years, always kept
in touch afterwards. And thenshe left the organization. I
(20:10):
left the organization andwe've maintained that
friendship. We still catch upnow and kind of talk about
things and things that aregoing on. It's great to be
able to have that. And I thinkthere were, I think later on,
I kind of got to that pointwhere I thought there was a
(20:32):
limit and I'm sure this willprobably resonate with other
people too, because I didn'tfeel like I, when I looked
around, I didn't see othersenior managers who were like
me. You know, I would seecertain people That were
really good managers, but Ididn't feel that I was like
(20:54):
them. And I found it reallyhard to think, well, can I be
my character? Can I be my kindof person and get to that next
level? And then I met somebodyelse and worked with somebody
else who was brilliant andreally good with people,
really funny, used humor, wasreally laid back, really
(21:14):
chilled out about stuff, butstraight down the line. And
that was the first time I sawsomebody who I thought,
actually, you know, I do see abit of myself in somebody
who's at that level and reallysuccessful at what they do.
But I think he was a bit of arole model. No, he was a role
model too. So I think, youknow, you, I think with
anybody, we're always lookingfor somebody who we identify
(21:35):
with, aren't we? We'resomebody, we want to see
somebody who does what we doin the way that we want to do
it in a way that has a similaralignment to our values or
does things in a certain Sofor me that's where the
coaching and mentoring came inbecause I was one of the first
people as a female, as policestaff,
(22:12):
Supervising and managingpolice officers so it was
quite natural that they wouldask me to support other people
coming up through. I think youdo look for people who look
like you or people who behavelike you or people who lead
like you or communicate likeyou. Sometimes that'd be
somebody who Looks like you aswell, but sometimes it's just
actually, you're my kind ofperson and I see you being
(22:33):
successful. And that gives mesome confidence that actually
I can do things my own way.And I know, you know, you'll
talk about this with peoplethat you work with in terms of
communicate how youcommunicate. If you're not
somebody, I am never going tobe somebody who's a shoes,
handbags and nails person.Yeah it won't work and my kind
(22:56):
of take on that is I wouldhave a chat with an individual
and ask them their preferenceshow do you like to be
communicated with and I try tomold into that but I'm never
going to be the you know standup and give a nice little
welcome speech person I willdo everything with humor and
you know if there's You knowif there's a mistake we'll sit
down and we'll sort it outtogether but and I'm also not
I'm not very directive I won'tbe in sort of given orders but
(23:19):
that brings me on to my nextquestion and how important do
you think communication is inleadership but it's all about
style and what you observe soso what are your thoughts on
that? Well I think you have tobe authentic and I think it's
also a massively overused wordas well it's like vulnerable
and authentic like everythingthey're just like the key
(23:39):
words at the moment aren'tthey But I do think it is
important. I think it isimportant that you work and
show up and behave in a waythat aligns with your values.
And I think it's importantthat you are who you are
because that's who people needto connect with. So, you know,
like I said, I am not somebodywho is going to show up in the
(24:01):
Gucci shoes with the handbagand the nails. I'll probably
be in Jordans and I'llprobably be in jeans and
sweats. Until the last minutewhere I'm like, okay, let me
just put some boots on beforeI step on stage. The first,
the first talk I did at ExcelLondon, I wore my Jordans. I
had heels in my bag, butbecause it was the first time
there and I was a little bitnervous and there were wires
(24:24):
everywhere on the stage. And Ijust said to the audience, I
said, I'm keeping my Jordanson because me, heels, nerves,
and lots of wires on the stageis not going to end well.
Luckily, I was talking aboutimposter and confidence and
stress, so I managed to weaveit into the talk. I just said,
I'm not, I can put my heelson, but I'm pretty sure that's
(24:48):
not what you're here for. SoI'm going to keep my Jordans
on and then not worry aboutfalling over. Just talk about
what I'm here to talk about.But I think that's important.
You know, I think people wantto connect with you. People
want to know a little bitabout you, but actually just
want, I think the energy isreally important and if you're
trying to bring a differentpersona, the energy is off and
(25:11):
whether you're into the wheelof energy and all of that
stuff, you feel it. You knowthat something is not right
and you might not know what itis because you don't know that
person, but you know thatsomething is off and people
pick up on that. And I thinkif you, I think people want to
be real. People want to talkto, People with experiences,
(25:32):
they want to know the good,the bad, and the ugly. They
don't want the polishedversion. Social media is a
polished version. The polishedversion doesn't help people.
They need the reality. And Ithink social media is your
shop window, but certainly inmy membership, in the Facebook
group, I try to be as honestas possible about, okay, this
(25:52):
is how it is. Even seven yearsin, this is how it is. This is
how it is for me. This is howit's probably going to be for
you. And this is how you workthrough it. I think you do
need to be authentic. I havemixed feelings about how
vulnerable you need to be. Ithink you need to be honest. I
think integrity is reallyimportant. I don't believe
(26:13):
that you need to beareverything. I think, you know,
for me personally, I thinkthere's a point where What's
behind closed doors staysbehind closed doors. And I
think there's a level ofprofessionalism around that. I
think that's my age and I'mprobably a little bit old
school. But you know, when Istarted working, you didn't
(26:34):
bring your home life intowork. You just didn't do that.
So I guess for me, there'sprobably a shift. I know
younger people in coming intothe working world are coming
into a very different world.So... No, it's interesting. I
think that what you mentionedabout being unpolished, My
kind of personal crusade is tostay away from this
(26:55):
perfectionism and social mediafor me my mission is we have
to let younger people see thatit's okay to show up with no
makeup on and your hair is notperfect because As the mother
of two daughters, I've alwaystried to show them that that's
not how the world is. You showup as you and to get yourself
(27:16):
into that position of fearwhere I can't go out because
my lips aren't right orwhatever. So that's always
been a personal thing for me.So I'll always show up as
myself. And the vulnerabilityside, for me, there's a bit of
vulnerability versus behindthe scenes. So as a business
owner, I'm happy to sharebehind the scenes. This is me
planning next week's stuff butthe vulnerability level
(27:37):
sometimes I see stuff and I'mnot going to give any specific
examples but sometimes itmakes me uncomfortable when
you've got someone there andyou know and I'm a trained
mental health first aider forexample so I'm honing in on
stuff And I'm thinking that'snot good, but I can't reach
out to that person becauseit's not appropriate. Is it
(27:58):
real? Is it not? Do you reallywant to be sharing this? And
it worries me. And thensometimes you see some of the
trends and that scares me too.And again, underlined, I'm the
mother of two daughters. Whatare they seeing that I'm not
seeing? And for me, it's thevulnerability and the behind
the scenes. You'll see alittle bit of my life, but you
won't see everything. I thinkfor me that's the authenticity
(28:22):
because I'm not somebody whoshares a huge amount. Like
even, you know, people who areIn my friendship circle,
they'll say, oh, you'll talk alittle bit, but you don't, you
know, you don't ever go intotoo much detail. So it's not,
that's not authentic for me.So if you ever see me doing
that, that's a performancebecause that's not what I
(28:42):
would do when the camerasaren't rolling. Do you know
what I mean? When I'm nothitting record, you won't ever
see or hear me do that. I willshare things if I feel there's
a purpose for me to share it.So I'll talk about certain
things on different podcastsif I think that's going to
help the audience, but I'm notgoing to share that with
anybody and everybody becausethere's no real purpose or
(29:03):
intention there. You won'tever see me cry on camera in
the same way that you won'tever see me dance on camera.
It's just not me. It's not whoI am and that wouldn't be a
real version of me. So that'snot... It would be a
performance. Yeah, that isalso the same reason why you
(29:24):
won't see me dancing oncamera. I'm the mother of two
daughters. I don't think theywould survive that if their
mum danced. But I have said,which brings me on to my next
question, how comfortable areyou showing up with your
audience? So the only timeyou'll see me dancing on
social media is when I make myfirst million. Happy to put
that out there. So if you dosee me dancing, You can come
(29:46):
on and celebrate with me. Buthow comfortable are you
showing off for your audienceon social media? So you're
obviously happy to go on tothe lives, to the videos, that
kind of thing. So where do youdraw the line? What kind of
level are you comfortable atdoing that? I think it's
following the trends, I thinkis probably where the line is
(30:08):
for me. There'll be certainthings that come up and I
think, oh, that's pretty cool.But that's not for me. And
then I just, you know, let letpeople do their thing. Like,
like, I don't have a problemwith it. I'm not a massive fan
of social media, I'll betotally honest. But I'm, you
know, I'm not somebody thatwould ever like comment or or
is is what it is. It is whatit is. It works for some
(30:31):
people. If you're reallycomfortable sharing that part
of your life with youraudience, You do you because
those people who need to hearthat are going to connect with
you to hear that and that'sokay. I think for me, over the
years, I've found ways ofsharing enough about my life
that gives people enough togo, okay, well, we like you or
(30:53):
we don't like you or thatresonates with me or it
doesn't. It's enough forpeople to, you know, they get
a couple of layers of this iswho I am and this is what I'm
about. But that's that's asfar as it needs to get their
professional relationships. Atthe end of the day, the people
that I work with, it's aprofessional relationship. And
whilst I get on really well, Ilove the clients that I work
(31:16):
with. I still need to maintainthat level of professionalism
as well. So they don't need toknow everything, but you know,
they know, they know theimportant stuff. And then, you
know, there's other stuff thatI choose to keep private as
I'm sure my clients choose tokeep things private as well.
So, I think from, you know,I'm happy doing their lives.
I'm happy speaking on stage.I'm happy doing podcasts. I
(31:40):
don't, you know, I always sayto people, you know, ask, ask
whatever you want to ask. AndI will, you know, I'll filter
the answer to whatever I feelcomfortable with or
appropriate with, whatever isappropriate. But yeah, I
haven't, you know, I don'tthink there's anything that's
kind of, I think it's more, Iguess more of the personal
(32:01):
stuff because I thinksometimes there's a respect in
that line, but I've never beenput in that position where I
felt that I've had to say, I'mnot going to answer that. I
think most people are prettyrespectful in this environment
of not asking too much. Soyeah, I don't think there's
anything. Anything so far? No,that's good. I think you're
(32:23):
right. It's a business,professional relationship and
whatever it is that you'recomfortable with sharing. Some
people, and that's fine, theyshare everything about their
personality and that's theirbrand, is probably the word
we're looking for. The brandis, this is me and this is me,
this is how I show up. Otherpeople are a little bit more
guarded. I myself,everything's not out there but
(32:47):
I like to put a bit of humorin some things which reflects
probably reflects mypersonality but it doesn't
reveal too much about thatbecause you know we coach
people and we have to havethat level of Professionalism,
you know, if you've sharedsome situation about yourself,
it doesn't kind of work it inthat field. Yeah, I think you
(33:08):
need to show your characterbecause that's what people
connect with. You need to showenough for people to build
that rapport, build thatrelationship and build that
trust with. We know it's thelike, no trust is what people
connect with. So I think youhave to be prepared to show
something. It's because you'rea shop window ultimately. So
(33:31):
you have to be in that shopwindow for people. It's that
visibility. People need to seeenough of you to make that
decision of whether or notthey might ever want to work
with you. And that will becharacter as much as that's
going to be professionalcredibility. So I think
sometimes you can see, youknow, I've certainly connected
with people online. And theydefinitely know their staff,
(33:55):
but I can't connect with them.There's something that I just
can't connect with, whetherit's a difference in values or
a difference in, you know,whatever it is, I can't
connect with them. I respecttheir credibility, their
professionalism and what theydo, but they're not somebody
who I would ever choose towork with. And that's going to
be the same for people whenthey see me online and I'm
(34:18):
okay with that. You know,there's plenty of coaches out
there. There's plenty ofpeople that do what I do. So
people should, you know,people do have the right to
make the choice and theyshould have the right to make
the choice, but I think we doneed to put ourselves out
there a little bit to be ableto, you know, You can't show
the brand without showing someof your character. I use, like
(34:40):
you, I use humor a lot. Forsome people, they really like
that. They like the fact thatthings feel quite light. They
feel easygoing, even thoughit's tough stuff. But I'm sure
there's probably quite a lotof people out there going, she
ain't as funny as she thinksshe is and they continue
scrolling and that's the endof it and I'm okay with that.
And you know what, youprobably wouldn't be able to
(35:01):
work with those people anyway,but that word that you use,
connect, that's it, that's thekey word. If someone connects
with what you're putting outthere and what you're saying
and your personality, they'rethe people that you want to
work with and that want towork with you, that's the Holy
Grail. So what legacy do youhope to leave as a leader?
Well, I think just in general,I think it's a great rule of
(35:22):
thumb to try and leave peoplebetter than when you first met
them. I think just in general,try and leave this world a
little bit of a better placein terms of what you can
control and what you caninfluence. I've got a son
who's 22 now, so there'salways been some in terms of
legacy around bringing up ayoung man in this world that
(35:44):
is a good man. You know, and,and treats people well and
respectfully. So that's alwaysbeen really important. And
I'm, I'm glad that he's agood, he's a good person.
Obviously I'm slightly biased,but he's a good human. So
there's that because it's notjust, you know, what we leave
behind. It's also who we leavebehind that will also have
(36:04):
their circle of control andinfluence. I think as a
leader, I think, you know,leadership is really changing,
you know, that what you need.In terms of skill set and who
you need to show up as aleader now is very different
to how it was when I was inleadership roles. I think it
was changing the last fewyears that I was in there. I
(36:26):
think it was definitelystarting to shift, but I think
just being able to equipleaders with those tools and
help them to see things fromdifferent perspectives, that
legacy then spreads becausethey've got teams of 10 or 20
or big departments or, youknow, full organizations. So
there's some legacy there ofjust supporting them, but it's
(36:48):
not always about giving themthe tools. Sometimes the tools
are already there. No, it'sjust helping them to work it
through and giving them thatsupport and that guidance as
the role model did for me whenI first started out as just
helping people find thatconfidence to be the leader
that they know they can be andnot having to conform to What
(37:08):
they think is a good leader,you know, it's not all
shoulder pads and heels, youknow, bright red nails and or,
you know, gray suits andspeaking in a certain way and
using certain language.Actually, you can be you and
lead really well. And I thinkthe coaching culture that's
(37:29):
emerging, it's probably beenaround longer than I
discovered it, but I had amanager that was a really good
coach and I didn't realisewhat it was until I studied it
myself. And that's why Iwanted to do it because I saw
it in action and I justthought, wow, this is amazing.
I could have benefited thisbenefit from so much when I
(37:50):
was younger and when I saw itin action and when I saw the
benefits that I wastransformed. But for me, the,
you know, the excellence inleadership that can be found
in it, it's so subtle and it'sso I can't even think of the
words to describe it. The goodleader almost fades into the
background because the work isdone, because they're doing it
(38:11):
in such a nuanced way andobviously opposite of
directive. And I love that. Ilove that it's becoming more
widespread and people areembracing that kind of
coaching culture. But itwasn't around when I was in my
20s and it would have made abig difference Because you
don't realise you have thepower within you and you've
(38:32):
just got this magical personthat can set you on that path.
But I'm just so grateful tohave discovered it and I'm
even more grateful that Imanaged to study it. And I
love it. I get in my geek zonewhen other people have done it
as well. I just really lovethe conversation. But that
legacy question, I love itbecause most people have a
similar answer and I love itwhen they say, you know, I
want people to walk awayfeeling better when they've
(38:53):
spoken with me or leave theworld a better place or pass
on that legacy to the nextgeneration or their children.
And it's just a niceopportunity to sort of stop
and think, well, what is mylegacy? And I love that people
sort of it's always it's ahumble question who always
give a really humbling answer.And I do love the answers to
it. But we do all have animpact. You know, we're here.
(39:15):
We're here in this world.We're all going to have an
impact. We need to be mindfuland conscious of the impact
that we're having. Becausewe're going to leave an impact
either way so we might as wellchoose what impact we want to
have. Exactly and the beautyof it you're never going to
fully know what the impactwas. You may sometimes someone
(39:35):
might come back but you justnever know what impact you'll
have had on other people and Ilove that you genuinely just
don't know and it's nice tokind of stop and think well
actually I could have had. Youdon't know what people are
thinking or how you might haveinspired someone to take
action and do something. Sowhere can we find out more
about you online? Where can wefind out about your business?
(39:57):
Because it sounds absolutelywonderful. Thank you. So if
you head to the websitezoethompson.uk, you can find
me on the socials there. I'mpretty much where you would
expect to find me. I'm not onTwitter, I am everywhere else.
Mostly active on Instagram.There's some stories there, a
(40:18):
little bit of behind thescenes, but no dancing. No
dancing. Well, I will put allthose links in the show notes
to the podcast. Thank you somuch for joining me, Zoe. It's
been an absolute pleasure. Ihave loved every second. It's
just been a real joy to talkto you. Thank you. Thank you
for listening today andspecial thanks to my fantastic
(40:39):
guest Zoe Thompson for sharingher incredible story with us.
If you want to increase saleswith your visibility strategy,
don't miss out on my freeresources. You can find the
links in the podcast notes aswell as the links that Zoe
mentioned in the podcast. Joinme on the next episode for
more incredible stories andinsights. You can follow me on
Instagram at coachamandajeanor visit my website
amandajean.co.uk. Bye for now.
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