Folklore, Possession & The Dark Side of Culture — with Victoria Jaye

Preface: There are some audio issues with this episode of no fault of Victoria or myself. Normally I would not post but the information in my opinion is worth the listen and watch.

In this conversation, Victoria Jaye, known as the Demon Folklorist, shares her unique insights into the world of demonology, drawing from her personal experiences and academic background in folklore. She discusses her journey into the field, the differences between demons and jinn, and the cultural contexts that shape our understanding of supernatural phenomena. Victoria emphasizes the importance of critical thinking in distinguishing between demonic fantasy and reality, and she provides valuable insights into how to identify and address potential possession experiences. The conversation also touches on the connections between folklore, horror films, and the rise of demonic fantasy in contemporary culture.

Podcast

https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/demon-folklorist 

Victoria Jaye Book

https://www.amazon.com/Black-Hours-Experiences-Folklore-Victoria/dp/B0CNV113QS


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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Right, we're live. Victoria the demon Folkloreist. Welcome to broadcasting Seeds.
Tell us who you are.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
And j I am the demon folklorist. As he said,
I got my masters in twenty twenty one from Utah
State in supernatural Folklore, and I had done my thesis
on cataloging demonic phenomena from published narratives into site sounds, smell,
and feeling. That's what my first book, The Black Hours,

(00:32):
Modern Demonic Experiences and Folklore is about. And right now
I'm working on my second book about how demonic fantasy
has influenced the way that the public views demonology.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
Wow, you're like college educated demon folklorist, right, but it's cool.
It's it's pretty cool that there from what's university again, Utah, you.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
Have an amazing folk or department. If anyone is ever interested,
I'm happy to answer questions or just go there and
find out for yourself. Because they were very supportive of
me going into demonology. They were like, nobody's done that.
That's so cool, And apparently they still talk about it
to new students. They're like, well, this is what Victoria did,
and I'm like, oh, that's so sweet.

Speaker 1 (01:28):
That's awesome. I love it that and I love that
it's it's somewhat well, it is not it's unique completely,
It's not somewhat unique, it's unique. But so just backtracking,
just a touch, what got you into that? Like, what
what was your Everyone's got a gateway to this high,

(01:50):
strange world that we live in, right or to this
niche of stuff, So what is your gateway?

Speaker 2 (01:56):
What got me into this is that I was possessed
when I was nineteen. I believe currently that it was
a gin, but I think demons were involved. But because
of you know, they have divine laws that they have
to follow. They can't just come into people's lives that

(02:19):
a gin had an easier time accessing me, I have
I lost three days of my life. They're gone, no
idea what happened, anything could have happened to me, and
I have no idea. And I woke up in a
mental institution with a cigarette in my mouth. I don't smoke,
never have, and my glasses weren't on, so it kind
of implies that it could see without them, and you

(02:40):
know I can't see without them at all. So then
it became okay, where am I? What am I doing?
Like why am I here because I was gone for
all of this and trying to rebuild my life after
this event. Honestly though, something I do want to tell
people when they hear that story, because it is frightening.

(03:01):
You can have a perfectly normal life after a possession.
It is not the only experience and it is not
going to define you forever. So something to think about.

Speaker 1 (03:17):
So was there a process of did you? I guess
the right way to put it is yours.

Speaker 2 (03:24):
I actually don't believe it. I did it. I do
believe in God. I believe that he cast it out
for me, either that or it was a combination of
that and my will took back over and I woke
up essentially, because when it comes to possessions of any kind,
your will will eventually rebuild and you will push it out.

(03:45):
But being that I am religious, like, I believe I
had help because I wasn't there.

Speaker 1 (03:54):
Okay, gotcha?

Speaker 2 (03:55):
Yeah? Literally, it was very weird, right, you.

Speaker 1 (03:58):
Just woke up? Wow, in a in a mental institution.

Speaker 2 (04:04):
It is scary. It was in Vegas too, and Vegas
is already kind of nuts. Yeah, this was back in
twenty four Try like I remember the entire first portion
of it. I had wandered out into the street, and
the neighbors had called the cops worried about me. The
cops thought I was high because it's Vegas, and I

(04:24):
had been oppressed quite a bit right before that happened,
and having really strange delusions, like it was definitely a
case of mental illness was definitely at play, because I
do have a serious anxiety disorder, so it was partially that,
for sure, But there was other phenomena that actually people

(04:44):
around me experienced as well, so it wasn't just me
because it's so much easier, I think, to believe that
I just had a mental illness episode rather than oh
my god, I was attacked and possessed by something that
wanted to hurt me, you know. But I did experience
when I was in the hospital, because they took me

(05:06):
in an ambulance, And this whole story is detailed in
my first book, if you're interested. But I was in
the hospital and my mom and dad were there, and
I woke up from being like sedated, and it took
like three times the amount of medicine it should have
for my size because my adrenaline was so high, and
I saw them, But something else was also looking out

(05:29):
through my eyes and talking to them. I was just
sort of like a passenger. I couldn't exert my will
at all. It was like being if you've ever seen
get out, It was like being in the sunken place.
And then three days passed and I woke up. Yeah,

(05:53):
not great, honestly, anywhere wearing by books, Amazon, Barnes, and Noble.
It's available in a couple different places.

Speaker 1 (06:05):
Okay, so so now you call yourself, well you are
a demon folklorest. Can you walk us through what that like,
what that means and how your background like how this
all shaped? Yeah, your identity?

Speaker 2 (06:25):
Like yeah, absolutely, that's a good question, and what you do.
So I had gone from my folklore degree, honestly not
wanting to explore demonology at all. It really wasn't where
I started. I wanted to look at fairy tales and
horror movies and there's definitely a connection there. But then
I wrote a paper on it and I was done

(06:45):
with the subject. I was like, I did the research,
I no longer want to do this, and yeah, so
I just was like, Okay, what else do you know about?
And I was like, oh, you've done a lot of
research on demons, especially after your own experience, because that's
what I thought it was. Because the literature, unfortunately, I think,

(07:07):
is quite choppy about what demons can and can't do.
So I was like, Okay, you know a lot about demons,
let's look into that. And then I talked to my
thesis advisor and the head of the department, and I
was like, okay, so what interests you about it? Like

(07:28):
what keeps your mind awake at night thinking about this?
And for me, it was I wanted to know what
they could do and what they couldn't do. So I
created a classification system to organize all of this information
by people's narratives. So when because demons are so rare,

(07:48):
I felt the need to go into the literature instead
of interviewing people because a lot of I've noticed real
quickly that a lot of what people think of as
demonic is actually not. It's usually something else, almost always,
like ninety five percent of the time. But yeah, and
that was really how I got started, and then I

(08:10):
expanded it once I was done with my thesis, and
I really didn't want to. I was quite burned out.
I graduated during COVID and it just really messed with
like everything I thought I was going to do. I
had wanted to go into getting my doctorate, but I
realized that I didn't really enjoy academia. I didn't feel

(08:35):
they really valued creativity and this could be like I
could absolutely be wrong about that, especially because of the
way the department talks about me now. And it wasn't
about USU. It was about like my first academic conference.
I felt people were trying to put colds in my research,
that they weren't trying to help me. I was a
student and they were trying to attack me. And I

(08:58):
was like, okay, like I do not like this vibe,
Like what is wrong with you guys? But you know,
like academia at large, maybe that's not true. I don't know.
I left because I didn't enjoy it, and then I
started to because the way that I define what my
research parameters are at the moment when I am the
demon folkorust is, narratives, experiences, phenomena, and media connected to demons.

Speaker 1 (09:27):
So yeah, awesome, So you say, what are some of
these other things that get confused?

Speaker 3 (09:43):
We have.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
Things like gin for instance, which if I explain it,
like humans are over here, demons are over here. Gin
are in the middle. They seem to behave a little
bit like humans. They fall in love, they have children,
they live a lot longer than us, but there is
something human about them. But they also have abilities very

(10:08):
similar to demons. It is not with the same power level.
But I would say that the demons and of course
angels are the most powerful beings at least that I've
come across naturally. As my research goes on, that statement
might change, you know, but for right now, they are

(10:30):
the most powerful negative entities. You know, jin get mistaken
for them all the time, especially in popular culture because
people are inundated with so much like demon saturated content.
So much of paranormal TV is focused on demons because
it ups the ante. So much of demon related horror

(10:52):
movies and possession movies, antichrist movies like Haunted House movies.
They're all different, and they're all and theme and genre,
but they are all mistaken for the same thing by
the public, and people think, oh my gosh, I'm having
this possession experience. But demons are not the only thing

(11:13):
that can possess you. There are other things that are
documented that can do this. Gin can do this. Debuchim
from Jewish folklore. You know, most people know them by
the Dibik box, which is a hoax, but now it's
probably more of a thought form because of so much
energy being directed at it. But like there isn't a

(11:33):
dibik like in there, but a dibic is, you know,
a person who's sole, like a once human person that
has been barred from heaven and hell and is forced
to wander and they look for shelter in people's bodies.
Gin are from Islamic folklore, and they are all across

(11:56):
the Middle East, like literally from like Egypt to Zanzibar.
Like it's pretty crazy how widespread they are. But they
were created, according to the lore, at the same time
as angels, angels of light, Gin of smokeless fire, in
humans of clay. They were like a previous iteration of

(12:16):
the world who now exists like in the air, and
that their bodies likely were destroyed during the flood.

Speaker 1 (12:28):
Gotcha, so kind of along, I guess what you would
call the Nephilim, But they're not. But they're not like
a their own thing.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
If anything, Nephlin might even be a gin human hybrid
because if you look at the Biblical scholarship of the
word Nephelim or not even Nephelm. I'm sorry, I'm the
bene Elite Elohim. I'm not. I don't speak Hebrew. Yep
it really it doesn't mean angel. I can't remember exactly

(13:02):
what it means right now, but it made me go,
that sounds a little bit like gin.

Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yeah, just angels are just it's just the job titles.
It doesn't describe what we're talking at all. It just
I mean, it's for lack of a better description, I
guess that's what we call them, right, But they're not.

Speaker 2 (13:23):
I just don't think they were angels. I think they
were probably gin or something like it that were tasked
with watching over humanity, and they likely fell in love
with women and apparently taught them all sorts of things
that they weren't supposed to know. But that's been going
deeper into the lore. I think Nephelim, that those giants

(13:45):
were a combination of whatever they were and humans. But
their bodies were probably also washed away with the flood,
which is, you know, a documented thing that actually did happen.
It wasn't just a Bible story.

Speaker 1 (14:00):
So yeah, so a debic, is that what you said,
what is what is a debic?

Speaker 2 (14:12):
So that's being from Jewish folklore that I was talking about.
Deepol chem is just the the plural. Okay, okay, these
are once human spirits. They are being punished, but also
no worries feel free. But at the same time in

(14:34):
their lore, they were really popular in Jewish history, right
around a time when women did not have a voice,
So it's positive that well, this was how women who
were in unfortunate situations like marriages they didn't want to
be in, were able to get out of it and
also in a public arena get people to listen to them.

(14:59):
So it's it's like either they're a real spirit or
they're this, or maybe even it's a combination of both.
Because there are instances where people who seemingly died in
the village that people still knew, like, questioned this dipoc
and it answered their questions accurately. So it's really hard

(15:20):
to say, especially you know, like a lot of those
records have been lost and we weren't alive back then,
so we don't know. But I do think it's entirely
possible that human spirits could break somebody down enough to
get in but they seem to have some almost like
a special designation because you don't see ghosts doing this

(15:41):
like all the time.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
But yeah, how that works?

Speaker 2 (15:46):
I have no idea.

Speaker 1 (15:47):
Wow, okay, got my brain scrambled at the moment. So
you brought up your thesis focused on organizing demonic phenomenon.
Could you explain to like layperson what that like in
laypersons terms? What were some patterns?

Speaker 2 (16:11):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (16:12):
Or type?

Speaker 2 (16:12):
So my thesis is called in the Presence of Evil
Demonic Perception Narratives. It is actually available online. I don't
recommend that people read that because it is not my
most recent work and I have made mistakes and it's
not organized exactly the way I want. But The Black
Hours is my most recent work, so that's and it's perfect.

(16:33):
I'm not going to touch it. Yeah, it's real. When
you're a writer, you're like, oh my god, did I
really put that into the world. So when it comes
to the way that I organized it, I felt that
the best way to look at it was my sight, sounds, smell,
and feeling, because this is how we as humans regulate

(16:58):
our senses and even experience the paranormal in the first place.
So I wanted to look at Okay, what do people
see when they're in the presence of a demon? What
do they hear, what do they smell, what do they feel?
And what is most interesting to me is that feeling
always comes first, and even if you are not a

(17:19):
drop psychic, you are going to feel it because your
body senses that this is a danger to you, that
you need to run and you need to get away
as fast as you can because these things are malevolent.
They're malevolence for humans just basically like rolls off of
them in waves. They hate us. So people feel it

(17:41):
the second they walk into places that are infested, and
it's always it comes up in every single narrative. It
is the feeling of something is wrong, something is evil.
But people dismiss it. They're like, it's an old house,
and yes, I've been in a few basements that are
totally creepy, you know, even if the rest of the
house isn't. It's just the nature of certain places. But

(18:05):
people do explain it away and try to, you know,
put logic to it. But it is something I tell people.
You need to listen when your body is telling you
you need to leave, you need to listen to that.
But people don't listen to it, and then they go
in they start living. Yeah, and people often don't even believe.

(18:26):
I know, it's so real.

Speaker 1 (18:28):
I don't want to laugh at that, but my god,
you know, but people.

Speaker 2 (18:32):
Do not listen to that feeling, and they don't even
listen when all of their senses are ringing alarm bells
until the moment that they see something. That is when
they're like, okay, maybe this is supernatural, and that that
is an interesting thing I've noticed. But every single demonic
infestation comes with markers. That's what I call them. They

(18:53):
are things that happen in every single demonic narrative ever,
and that's how you can tell that it's a demon
as opposed to something. So things like seeing a gigantic
black shadow. Usually sometimes it's hooded, sometimes it looks like
it's mixed with animal human parts, but you're going to

(19:15):
see something eventually. Another is that feeling of evil when you,
you know, cross the threshold of this place that's already infested,
horrific rotting smells that get worse and worse over time.
You know, things like that. There's a bunch of them.
And the way that I tell a marker is because

(19:36):
if you look at that section in my book, there's
so many that it takes up pages and pages because
it happens in every single one. So that's how I
tell a marker from something else. And you know, it
doesn't seem that demons have all the same powers and abilities,

(19:58):
like for instance, people seem to be very concerned that, oh,
a demon's going to possess me and then it'll go
and kill people I love. If that were true, it
would show up more in the narratives. People do not
seem to actually, like, there's been like less than five
cases ever where a person was very clearly possessed at
the time of the murder. So I actually think it's

(20:21):
certain demons that have that ability. It's not everybody, or
they would do it more. They hate humans. Of course
they're going to murder you if they can. But the
real thing that demons do that their goal seems to be,
it's not your soul. Like some people think they want
to cause death in the person, they want their body

(20:42):
to give up. They don't seem to do anything with
the soul. It is the whole process of infestation, oppression,
and then possession, and then the last stage is death.

Speaker 1 (20:58):
And usually getting the person probably.

Speaker 2 (21:00):
Too possibly really they want them to give up and yeah,
seed control essentially to them, but the second the person
like okay, in the Analisee Michelle case, for instance, I
do not believe that that was a demon because of
really specific phenomena. And I think Annalise and this is

(21:23):
not a comment on her strength. I think she went
through a lot, but I do think that her body,
she gave up her will and she died because her
body when they did an autopsy, there was nothing actually
wrong with her physically, So it sounds like she gave
up her will to live. And I completely get it
because I've been in that fight, not to the level

(21:44):
that she was at, thankfully, but it is really difficult
to hold on when you're being attacked like that. And
that poor girl, and you know, I hope she's in heaven.

Speaker 1 (22:00):
For sure for sure. So some context, what just so
people get like, what what films like horror and let's
say horror films because you like horror films, all right,
do you think actually get demons right, like, either in
terms of folklore or like the accuracy or narrative functions?

Speaker 2 (22:25):
So what there are actually or our axis is the
most accurate film that ninety five percent accuracy. The things
that aren't accurate are actually the idea of black masses
being held that are widespread and like a real danger.
That's that's satanic panic right there. And if people are

(22:48):
holding black masses at all, it is not the way
films depict it. It's not like a witch's sabbot. It's
people who have watched too many movies who are trying
to like in dulge their dedancy by doing sick, twisted
things or people they're like extremist groups. Real Satanism doesn't

(23:10):
actually hold with hurting other people or animals or any
of the thing that Satanists are known for in film.
So yeah, it's it's very it's on a small scale
if it's happening at all.

Speaker 4 (23:26):
Yeah, I'm trying to think of what I've got this
question my head and I can I'm trying to put
words to it, Like, so, what's the difference between like
a folkal or based recognition of demonic.

Speaker 1 (23:47):
Present right versus how it's usually portrayed and like paranormal
TV shows, movies things like that, what's the what's the actual.

Speaker 2 (24:01):
It's a lot slower difference than it is portrayed, and
it'll be like I think some movies get that right,
Like I thought things like Insidious the First you did
really well with like how slow the phenomena starts and
and it built and built and built. But no film
is going to include all of the little stuff in between,

(24:23):
so you know, you can't really accurately show that process,
but you can show yeah, you don't have time, like
that's just not But it will get it will get
worse if you have a demon, it will get much worse,
and it will become deadly at one point because of

(24:45):
how they always single out a person, usually the most
psychologically vulnerable or open to possess, to take over, and
they don't really seem to do much once they have
possessed people, though there are you know, reports of some
things that they have done, but it seems to be

(25:09):
trying to kill the person and you know, cause strife
and hurt within that family. But in the movies, it's
just it's not. It's also never that fast to get
church approval ever, like it's bureaucratic. There's a lot of paperwork.
You have to prove it beyond a shadow of a

(25:30):
doubt that this is happening in the first place, and
that takes time. I mean, I'm not Catholic, I don't
have any affiliations with the Catholic Church, but I know
it does take a while, and that's why exercits have
popped up in the last you know, thirty plus years,
who are circumventing that because it takes too long and

(25:51):
the person is in danger. So do you think there's
an optic endemonic that is demonic fantasy? For sure? Because
if there was an uptick, let me just say this,
if there was an uptick in actual demonic activity, don't
you think I'd have more to do, like more to

(26:12):
look at, more cases to analyze, because I love to
do that. When I had my podcast, Demon Folkloris, that's
what I did a lot of the time. I just
looked at cases and analyzed them and told people whether
or not I thought this was a real demon. And
if it wasn't a demon, what did I think it was.
So it's just like, yeah, there would be so much

(26:32):
more for me to do in the world. And what
I really think is on the rise is demonic fantasy.
And this is my term. I coined it to explain
the weird inaccurate ideas that people pick up from media
mainly and also para celebrities, and sometimes churches pastors watch
the same movies as us, you know, and sometimes that

(26:54):
stuff filters and trickles into their sermons and people walk away,
Like I have seen people like pastors on the internet
with their full chest being like, la, booboos are evil,
and I'm like, no, they're not. They're a stuffy that
looks a little creepy, like that's their whole thing. And
it's just like I you can't call something demonic because

(27:17):
you don't agree with it, because calling it that is
deeply irresponsible. First of all, you're freaking people out because
the word demonic means related to demons. It's not related
to demons, not at all. And having these things is
not going to cause a demonic presence. There's only a
few ways we have identified that demons actually get in.

(27:40):
But churches and some para celebrities have agendas that they
are trying to push of ideas to curb certain behavior
in the world. And it's not like this is mainly
churches that does this. Because I recently read an exorcist
book and I do have a lot of respect for
exorcists and demonologists who are actual demonologists, not people who

(28:03):
are like, oh yeah, I have a demonology degree because
I did an online course, and I'm like, okay, but
they often are like, oh yeah, alcohol and abusing alcohol
and casual sex. That's how demons get in. And I
almost threw the book across the room because I was like,
that is not how they get in. That is a lie,

(28:25):
because if that were true, don't you think there'd be
more a lot of people do that. We're in modern times,
Puritan times, you know. So no, that's not how demons
get in. Demons get in through only four ways that
I've identified, and there could be more. I'm always like
open to looking at, you know, more possibilities. This is

(28:48):
all we know so far. First is what I call,
well we all call it this law of invitation. So
this is when a demon is invited in and accepts
the invitation. Because a lot of people try to invite
demons in and nothing happens. So, you know, like it

(29:09):
is more difficult than it looks. But for whatever reason,
demons are kind of picky about who they want to infest.
I don't know what the reasoning is, but there's that,
and it's not through wigi boards, which I know a
lot of people think I get that question so much,
you have no idea, But really a wigi board is

(29:31):
more like a foothold, especially if you don't close the session.
Demons need really big doorways. And this is something that
the public gets wrong a lot, and it is mainly
due to Satanic panic and people like the Warrens and
the Church saying anything outside of the church is evil,

(29:52):
and because they have an agenda, they do not want
you to talk to God or anything else without them
being in the middle of it. And also they don't
want you to find answers anywhere but them. And I'm
not like a hater. Yeah, and I'm not like a
hater against churches if you are not doing crimes, because

(30:14):
some churches are and using that to cover it up.
And it makes me sick because you know, like I
do believe in God, and I don't like churches mainly
because I've never found one that was doing what it
was supposed to be doing instead of you know, hurting
people and trying to say bad things. So I say, like,

(30:35):
I'm not a hater of churches, but also I don't
like churches. I don't like how people abuse the idea
of a church, and I think that's evil. But that's
a different tangent.

Speaker 1 (30:49):
Yes, I mean it's like the whole you know. I, yes,
I believe in God, but I'm not overtly religious because
I don't have a afiliation with the church.

Speaker 2 (31:01):
Neither do I I don't have an affiliation specific I
forgot the other two. Sorry, the other three, I got
way off topic. Yeah, just so that everybody knows the
law of attraction is another way that demons can come in.
And this is when you do something so twisted and
evil that's against your own humanity that it sends up

(31:22):
like a dark beacon, and sometimes a demon will answer
and want to hang out with you because you are
so disgusting, so twisted. Already, it is already living there,
and you moving in means that you actually encroached on

(31:43):
its space, so it does not have to find a
way into your life. It's already there because of you.
And then scent, Okay, I meant what was that scent?
There is a lot of law or that demons can
be bound for a certain amount of time by extremely

(32:05):
dark magic to be sent after somebody to hurt them,
to take from them, even to kill them. But this
is actually not very common because a lot of people
cannot enact this kind of magic without it sort of
like rebounding on them and killing them. Because demons don't
like you. Why would they want to be like bound

(32:25):
by you? Do you really think they're not going to
retaliate and it A lot of people do not have
the magical know how to be able to do this effectively.
You know, satanic panic, a lot of it use the
oh people are dabbling in the occult. I call myself
an ocultist because I study the occult, but I'm more

(32:46):
of a budding one. I am not at the education
level yet for me to confidently say that. But I
have studied a lot of magical practices and most of
them do not include this kind of magic. This is different.
Most magic is designed to try and help your daily life.
It's like folk healing. So you know, people who are

(33:08):
out here like fearing magical practices that witches are casting
spells on them as unwitting innocent Christians. That's really not
what they're doing. They're trying to help their own lives.
They're trying to a lot of spells are about money
and love and trying and not like casting so that

(33:28):
somebody falls in love with you, but to find it.
And there's there's a lot of fear around witches, and
I've found them to be the most lovely people. Same
with Satanists, same with pagans. It was a pagan who
helped me out my friend when I needed help because
I was living in a place that was spiritually weird
and it was affecting me daily. And witches are always

(33:50):
ready to jump in and they're not going to judge
you about how you got to this place where this
thing is in your life, when I've found, unfortunately that
a lot of Christians will be like, what did you
do to get this in your life? And it's very judgmental,
and I just I think that's very against the actual
teachings of Christ. So yeah, it's just things are really

(34:13):
kind of weird in the world right now, and I'm
doing the best that I can to try to dispel
demonic fantasy as I see it. Like Annabel. I'm sure
you've heard the buzz about Annabel, Like, there is a
lot going on there and a lot of it's demonic fantasy,
and I got backlash for that when I spoke out
about it. The paranormal community at large tends to agree

(34:36):
with my views on annabel but the public doesn't understand
that the paranormal community is often joking when we're like,
Annabelle is going to come after you, Like it was
a joke before Dan Rivera tragically died that Oh my gosh,
she was in New Orleans. That's why that plantation burned down,

(34:57):
That's why all those convicts escaped. We were joking and
most of us knew that, but the public picked up
on it and loved the idea of a possessed doll,
and it got wild from there. People are like, oh
my god, she escaped, and people had to be like, no,
she didn't. She's right here, guys, Like so, I think

(35:18):
the public wants to believe in this sort of thing,
And then they come to me and are coming at
me and being like, well, where are you getting this information?
It's like from my years of research, what do you mean? Like,
do you think I'm just out here saying this? But
to be honest, when I did my TikTok video on it,
I didn't introduce my credentials, which next time I'll do,

(35:38):
but I'm also going to turn off the comments because
I'm here to educate. I'm not here to engage with
people who don't know what right, Yeah, I know you
know what I'm talking about.

Speaker 1 (35:53):
I totally understand, Yes I do. So what exactly is
a demon like? Where like we don't know back what this?
What is it?

Speaker 2 (36:02):
Like?

Speaker 1 (36:02):
What are that? Is my honest answer, you know, like
you've got the Book of Enoch and their explanation that
it's a you know what we brought up Nephlum earlier,
the disembodied spirit of Nephlum. That's what Enoch says a
namon is.

Speaker 2 (36:20):
But we don't know. But I can tell you what
I think they are based on everything that I understand
about them at this juncture. I think some of them
are fallen angels some of them. I think others of
them are lower classes of power entities that maybe joined

(36:40):
in the fight against God and humanity during the war.
And the war is heavily debated anyway, so it's like
I can't prove that the war happened. I'm not going
to try to prove it, but personally, yes, I do
believe that at one point, right people chose sides or
not even people. I'm sorry, that's incorrect. Entities show sides.

(37:02):
So they chose sides, and there's good and there's evil,
and evil, if you really think about it, means unfriendly
to humans, malicious towards humanity. So when we say like
like a child predator, like that's evil, it is they
are fundamentally unfriendly to humanity because they're hurting some of

(37:24):
the innocent. Yeah, you know, so that's what I think
they are. But there seem to be different levels of
ability within demonic hierarchy because you know, it's as above
so below that's the low anyway that demons have rank
in hell, just like angels in Heaven have rank.

Speaker 1 (37:48):
So yeah, right, there's a hierarchy for sure. All Right,
So we've talked about demons, We've talked to Gin, we've
talked about or the Dibek. Right, what other entities?

Speaker 2 (38:10):
We also have? Shadow people?

Speaker 1 (38:11):
Do we have out there?

Speaker 2 (38:13):
We don't know what shadow people are either, but I
can tell you what I think they are based on
research that I did for the Paranormal Research Symposium in Gettysburg.
I did and that was such a cool trip. And
if any of you are living around there. It is
coming up again in August. I won't be there sadly
this year, but maybe next year. It is so cool.

Speaker 1 (38:36):
I loved that is a pretty cool place.

Speaker 2 (38:38):
Extremely haunted, but I didn't really have very many experiences
because I was more focused on like my research and
trying to like get ready for the presentation. But it
was cool anyways. So I had looked at demons versus
shadow people versus skin walkers because I wanted to see

(38:58):
these things that seem to be mistaken for each other.
I wanted to see what the real differences were by
doing a classificing excuse me, classification system on each one.
And I found that shadow people are very strange because
I cannot tell what they are from their lore, but

(39:22):
I think they're actually the form of the shadow person.
It comes up in every single narrative that exists in
the paranormal, including Bigfoot, UFO UAP. I know that that's
what it's called. When I was growing up, it was UFO.
In cases skin walkers, they come up in every single narrative,
including demons. I think it's an easy form for a

(39:45):
spirit to take on our plane because they all seem
to be in these like there's like several different types
of them, and they all seem to be there for
different reasons. So I just think it's an easy form
for them to take, but that I can't. I can
prove it, but it is difficult to know for sure.

(40:08):
We don't know anything for sure in the paranormal. We
just do the best we can. So we're talking about
bigger psychic abilities.

Speaker 1 (40:17):
Oh yes, yes, so where so where are you in?

Speaker 2 (40:23):
There is a spectrum. I yet at times they are
flesh and blood, but they also walk in the spirit realm.
To me, it's the only way because they're phenomena is
very very close to skin walkers. And skin walkers are
you know from the Navajo or is it Dne Yeah,

(40:49):
but they are people who have done extremely dark magic
to the point where to be initiated you have to
usually kill somebody that you love to receive this horrific
gift of power, which to me sounds like a sacrifice
to a demon. Once upon a time, the legend is

(41:11):
that they were they were meant to skin walker ability
was actually more like dream walker. They were somebody who
would walk between worlds. It was meant to help the
people and something seemingly came along and offered it easier,
though not easy, because yeah, you have to kill somebody
you love or do something equally messed up, and this

(41:34):
thing offered the power. And now skin walkers do seemingly
exists or especially around the Utah area and also a
little bit in other states too, but that's where I
mostly hear about them. But they very clearly sometimes are
flesh because they can be shot. They can be hurt
at times, and then other times they're shot and there

(41:58):
is nothing like they don't even react. They still advance.
There's still a danger, and they are very malicious towards
regular people who come across them. But they were human
and are currently operating with power that is unnatural, So

(42:18):
they're phenomena shows that sometimes they are here and sometimes
they are not physically same thing comes up in Bigfoot.
I think sometimes they're flesh and blood and sometimes they
walk in spirit, so they are both. I don't know
what they are. I'm not sure we're going to come
across a real explanation, but I've also heard that they

(42:41):
have communities. People have come across them. Sometimes people can
even become friends with them. They leave gifts. It sounds
like in your life at pivotal moments of your life,
they have appeared. So I wonder if they're trying to
communicate with you. But that's just a thought, you know,

(43:02):
Take it how you like, right, And the phenomena is strange.
They are often seen driving alien spacecraft. That's nuts. Like,
they clearly have a connection to Fay, they have a
connection to extraterrestrials. I think personally that a skinwalker ranch

(43:29):
is a portal field and that everybody uses it good, bad, past, present, future,
It doesn't matter. They're all using it. Yeah, there's something
about it that big Foot always seem to have this

(43:49):
connection to natural resources. Like in Pennsylvania there's a huge
Bigfoot flat and it's because it's the biggest quartz deposit
in the US. That's at least what's positive. Other places
it's because there's a natural water source that's very big,
or some other kind of rock, and as we know,
quarts amplifies. So I think these beings, whatever they are,

(44:15):
are drawn to these places and they gather in these places.
But at times they appear in our world. But they're
so big that we would have noticed if they were
living here in flesh and blood as far as like
forestation and how much they're going to need to consume
just to keep themselves alive. And so many people have

(44:38):
had Bigfoot experiences that the numbers are astonishing at the charts. Crazy.

Speaker 1 (44:46):
Oh it's off the charts. I mean the Bigfoot, the
Bigfoot mapping project just him, I mean he pulls from
other places, but he's got fifteen thousand documented cases of sightings.

Speaker 2 (45:03):
Isn't that nuts? Though?

Speaker 1 (45:05):
That's so many and it's crazy. They're just mapped all
over and actually the place is the number one stay
right now Inania like you, like you had said for
for new sightings, and and the east.

Speaker 2 (45:23):
In certain areas had interesting Bigfoot anomalies. Yeah, it's so
crazy to me. But I had this guy try to
like correct me, be like are you sure it's not
your subconscious projection. I'm like, no, there's data. What do
you what? Like, I love it as a woman researcher,

(45:45):
like men really trying to like flirt with me by
correcting me. And it's like, Okay, why don't you go
look at the phenomena, dude, Like that's what I'm doing.
So funny.

Speaker 1 (45:58):
Yeah, yeah, there's so there's also a woman. Her name
is terrestrial. That's what she goes by. But she has
the Sasquatch Data Project and her information is legit. It's crazy.
It's basically it says, yes, Bigfoot exists in some form
or fashion. There's no way around that. It's just how

(46:21):
does that right? All flesh? No pun intended, How does
that all flesh out?

Speaker 5 (46:26):
Right?

Speaker 1 (46:27):
So I it's it's so interesting to me, and it's
like I've kind of taken a step back from it
because it just gets intense, and you know, I mean,
but like this weekend, I'm going to be in Tennessee
at the Great Smoking Mountain. They said, well, is it
Bigfoot Conference? Yeah, the Smoking Mountain Bigfoot Conference. So that
should be fun. But it's like, I don't get involved

(46:52):
with the politics, no, I you I just have everybody.

Speaker 2 (46:57):
On I really that's what you're on Bigfoot. And then
I saw Tim Renner and Josh Putchen speak at in
Gettysburg at the Paranormal Research Symposium talking about Oh yes,
I had used their their Where the Footsteps End Volume

(47:18):
one and two in my own Bigfoot research that I
had started to try and classify them, see what patterns
emerge because the way that I do things apparently is
a little bit different in terms of data. I mean,
I didn't think it was like, you know, groundbreaking or
anything like that when I was inventing it, but apparently

(47:40):
not a lot of people have looked in this way.
So eventually I will and I'll map it out. But
it'll tell me things about the way that they manifest
about their behavior.

Speaker 1 (47:50):
Yeah. Yeah, when you do that, I'd love it.

Speaker 2 (47:56):
It'll be everywhere. If you follow me on any of
my socials, like I, well, I will announce it one time.

Speaker 1 (48:02):
Okay, good, awesome. Yeah, I just had josh on he
uh he uh so yeah, when did that episode? What's today? Wednesday? Yeah?
It actually I posted that episode yesterday is the episode.

Speaker 2 (48:20):
It's just amazing wealth of knowledge.

Speaker 1 (48:23):
Yeah. So going back to demon like demon type stuff, right, So,
like we live in this insane digital world, right, so
do you are there types of I say demons as
like a blanket statement, okay, And I say demons like

(48:45):
emerging in cultural and psychological sense in the digital world.
Like we talked about AI and that AI is, well,
what are your takes.

Speaker 2 (48:57):
On I don't think they're really related at this juncture.
That could change. Demons do have knowledge of past present
in future, so they may cross over into that, but
that has actually already happened with the appearance of Zozo,
and we do words. I personally think, because I looked

(49:19):
into Zozo phenomena, I would listen to that episode because
I go by it like line by line and look
into the claims about people who have reached out with
Zozo experiences that it is some type of gin yep.
And I think because the phenomena is simply not strong enough,
not powerful enough, and it is dangerous, but not dangerous

(49:40):
enough to be a deep And that's really how you
separate gin and demons. And there are some things that
only demons can do that GIN cannot, and it doesn't
manifest in those yeah narratives, So.

Speaker 1 (49:57):
Are gin inherently They can be good, they can.

Speaker 2 (50:00):
Roll, and they can be evil. They're much like humans.
They have free will.

Speaker 1 (50:04):
Okay, so right, m so, so much of what people
would ascribe to demon like possession, let's say, could actually
just be a gen possibly, right, I mean, it makes sense.

Speaker 2 (50:26):
To me that it is something else no matter what.
It's like a five percent chance that it's like an
actual demon because and people are like, oh okay, well,
if that's true, how are they getting over here? They're
from the Middle East, and it's like, how did the
fae get over here? They're probably attached to someone. What
do you mean, like we'll go over there all the time.

Speaker 1 (50:49):
Yeah, I mean. And and that's an uptick because there,
you know, it's one of those things like especially when
you look at I wonder if if there's a correlation
with Middle Eastern immigration, and I'm.

Speaker 2 (51:02):
Not sure, like it's entirely possible. We don't know how
they travel exactly, but that would be my best guess.
And fairies came over with a lot of the Celtic people,
and that's why we have fairies now here. A lot
of them are probably in the mountains like Appalachia, you know, so.

Speaker 1 (51:23):
Oh yeah, but you hear you hear stories about them
ament so yeah, I know.

Speaker 2 (51:31):
It's a very strange, strange place, very dangerous. But also
I think in places like that there is this beautiful
chiarskiro effect where light and dark end up sort of
codexisting in the world. But it is strange. There is
high strangeness there. There are things that are dangerous and

(51:53):
I want to go I'm not gonna lie. I have
family and Appalachia over in Kentucky.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
You know, yep. And I mean if you get technical,
like where I do my a lot of my research
is apple Aachia. It's just in Pennsylvania, but it's the apple.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
Older than bone.

Speaker 1 (52:15):
And they're old. Well. And that's the funny part is
if you think about it, technically the mountains in Ireland
and in Scotland are technically the Appalachian.

Speaker 2 (52:30):
Mountains separated, just Tangia. Yeah, so I'm not surprised at all. Right, So,
and we don't know how related Fay and gin are.
Maybe they are the same flavor, like the same thing,
different flavors, different zip codes, same neighborhood, different as zip code,

(52:51):
you know.

Speaker 1 (52:52):
Right right, Yeah, it is so was I mean, it's
just cool. It's really cool to think about that and
do all the stuff. So yeah, that was one of
the thing that drew me to Joshua was this his
first book, what she wrote years and years ago, but.

Speaker 2 (53:11):
That oh the Trojan talked about it. It's on my
list of books to.

Speaker 1 (53:15):
Read Trojan Feasts.

Speaker 2 (53:17):
It's just amazing. It is amazing at the mind blown moment,
like yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:27):
Yeah, yeah. So this podcast is called Broadcasting Seeds and
it's about planting seeds and folks minds, right, so they
can think outside the box, think outside our reality possibly.
So I always ask my guests to plant some seeds

(53:48):
in the viewer's minds to kind of part with.

Speaker 2 (53:52):
See when it comes to demons, that one seed I
want to plant is that there are more ah zessing
entities that exists in our world than just them. When
I first went into folk Corps, I thought it was
only angels and demons, and a lot of people think so. Now.

(54:12):
I also believed in ghosts as well, but the other stuff,
I was like, maybe it's like a demon pretending to
be this. But now with all of the folklore, all
of these eyewitness accounts, all of the things that are
happening to people, the high strangeness, there is more than
we understand that is in the neutral. So that's one

(54:36):
seed I want to too. I think that demonic fantasy
is incredibly prevalent, and every single belief that you have
about demons currently, I encourage people to trace it back.
Where did you get? Is that a critical source? A
lot of what we think of as popular demonology. Malachi Martin,

(54:56):
The Warrens, people who wrote a bunch of like demonology
books in the seventies and the eighties. They are byproducts
of satanic panic. These are not critical sources because we
cannot prove that any of this happened. And I know
people are very divided, not really in the paranormal. Most
people just really don't like them. The Warrens not so

(55:19):
much in the public, but they are not a critical
source because we cannot prove it. We don't see them
releasing like their case files to prove that these things happened.
So it's one of those things like you need to
look very critically about where you got that idea, trace
it back, force yourself to trace it back, which book,

(55:42):
which movie, Because a lot of very strange ideas that
people come up to me with their full chest and
tell me with full confidence this is yeah, this is real,
And I'm like, Nope, where'd you get that? You know,
me and my deepulists and exorcist friends, we get a

(56:03):
lot of really weird stuff said to us and we're
just like what, Like, where did you get that? So
demonic fantasy is on the right. I don't think demons
are on the rides. I think demonic fantasies and there
seems to be a second wave of satanic panic going
on right now. So anytime you hear something is demonic,

(56:27):
look into the source. Look who's saying it. Do they
have an agenda? Are they trying to influence your behavior
in some way? So that's another thing.

Speaker 1 (56:39):
Yeah, as far as if someone's having issues, like like
an entity, how do you like discern through that? You
know what I mean? Like like me, like, how do
I how do I discern through figuring out?

Speaker 2 (56:55):
How I deal with what I tell people is to First,
I want you to write down every single thing that
has happened, and you do not have to puzzle through
it yourself. There are other researchers like me who will
do that for you. So write it down, get video
evidence if you can give us the biggest picture you
possibly can, and I will look at it for you

(57:17):
if you want me to. But I may not tell
you what you want to hear. And people I do
get a lot of backlash about that and people being
rude because they're like, no, it is a demon, and
I'm like, why do you want it to be a demon?
It's not like and here is an itemized list about
why it's not right. If you can't convince me you're not.

(57:38):
This isn't a demon like and I'm not the end
all be all when it comes to you know, demons,
and it is not to say that I'm not ever
going to get things wrong, but demonic phenomena is so
clear cut it is undeniable when it's a demon that
if it's that's just not happening past a certain point.

(58:00):
I'm sorry, I do not believe that that's what it is.
And yeah, people get rude, but if you reach out
to me, I may tell you an alternative theory, and
you have to be prepared that it may not be
demonic at all. It looked into a lot of different
types of entities. I eventually want to be well rounded
and have looked at everything. But that's a lot of

(58:22):
research on my end.

Speaker 1 (58:26):
Yeah, for sure, it's just a matter of like, if
you've got folks that have issues and it's not a demon.

Speaker 2 (58:34):
You deal with culture in its context, you know what
I mean, it was a gin, I would look people
in the Muslim community because they know the existence of
demons and deal with it quite often. I would start there.
If it is a diboc, maybe look into Judaism. How
do they get rid of dubuquem. It's always best to
look at it in its context, because if you come

(58:57):
out of Gin with Christianity, they have the ability to
just ignore it. This is not the same rules, it's
not the same entity. They are not bound by the
same divine laws. A demon is forced to respond if
it is baide too. If you invoke the name of

(59:19):
God in Jesus, a gin will not. And that's why
I thought the analyst Michelle case wasn't a gin because
it did not come out when it was bade to
under holy names. Yeah, so I think they dealt with
it the wrong way, that's agreed, But they didn't know.

Speaker 1 (59:39):
I mean, there's many times you see possession. I'll and
I'll do that with air quotes possession, right, and yes,
it might be possession, but I'll say demonic possession where
it just doesn't work, like the exorcism doesn't work. So
that would kind of be if it takes weeks, I
would say, well, you're not probably dealing with the demon

(01:00:02):
you're now.

Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
It could be a high level entity, but there will
break in that case that show you it's demonic, you know.
But yeah, that is another want if you come at
something the wrong way out of the context of its culture,
it will not be dealt with effectively. It's like breaking

(01:00:26):
your right leg and putting a cast on the left.
It just won't work.

Speaker 1 (01:00:34):
Yeah, hmm, yeah. I have a friend that was possessed
by a demon and a demon in a blanket term
and he had to end up going through a sum
a shamanic ritual resue. It's that wasn't an exorcism, but

(01:00:56):
it was a shamanic thing and that rid him of
that entity, whereas in he had a pastor all over
it for it just never broke no, exactly, And that's
what I'm saying. It's kind of now.

Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
Naturally, I don't want to be I would have to
hear the entire list of phenomena, everything that happened to him,
you know, because of course, of course, the problem I
think with a lot of the paranormal has largely become
quite dismissive of demons in the first place. And it's
completely understandable why they became like a buzzword and like

(01:01:35):
something people put on their videos to gain views and clicks.
And we need to be diligent and look into things
from all angles and then decide what it is. Because
demons I believe to exist, but I'm not going to
sit here and try to convince you that they exist.

(01:01:56):
But if somebody thought they were having a demonic problem.
The purpose of my first book, The Black Hours, is
so that you can go through it line by line
and literally check it off like a checklist. The more
you have, the more likely you do have a demon right.
So it was an attempt to look at demonic phenomena

(01:02:19):
more universally, less religiously, because I don't find that at times,
religious points of view can be a little bit limiting.
I'm trying to look at it as widespread as humanly possible.
At this juncture, my data might be corrupted. I could
have all sorts of mistakes that I have made, and

(01:02:42):
I'll be the first to tell people, Hey, I messed up,
you know, because we have to look at our thoughts critically,
you know, or research whereuse It's what we do. Like. Yeah,
and I am not the end all be all, but
I do think that I add something to the pair
normal that is useful, and I'm just doing the best

(01:03:03):
I can, just like everyone else. Yeah, thanks for having me, I.

Speaker 1 (01:03:10):
Really thank you for coming on super interesting and I
would like you to Yeah, Sareia.

Speaker 2 (01:03:18):
Is under demon Folklorest. It's just all streamlines that way.
I also have done horror column writing because I like
to analyze horror movies for Morbidly Beautiful, also under demon Folklorest.
And yeah, like, I have all sorts of things going on,
but that's the easiest way to find me. And my

(01:03:38):
podcast has three seasons if you're interested. I looked at
horror movies, folklore, and demon cases because those are my
three main interests. And yeah, feel free to follow me.
I have all of my accounts locked at the moment,
but you can request me if you want to follow
my stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:03:55):
And yeah, awesome again, thanks for coming on.

Speaker 2 (01:04:02):
And yeah, once my new book is out, I'll reach
out and we can talk about that one.

Speaker 1 (01:04:11):
Absolutely for sure, for sure, let me know.

Speaker 6 (01:04:26):
And it came to pass when men began to multiply
on the face of your the sons of God saw
the daughters of men.

Speaker 1 (01:04:33):
That they were fair, and they took them wives.

Speaker 6 (01:04:37):
Of all which they chose, and they bore them giants.

Speaker 5 (01:04:46):
Giants. Yo.

Speaker 3 (01:05:06):
I dropped versus like tablets from Sinis miss scrolls of
Enoch encrypted in the shadow twist watching blood dripping from
celestial fists, Nephilim stomping earth. They ain't myths, They exist
back in Genesis sists. The heavens fell hard, angels broke ranks.
Now the veils got scars, took the daughters of man.
Now the blood lines painted, hybrid beats in the woods,
faces unpainted. They saw a war metal root cut and

(01:05:29):
the charms alchemy and death, and the briston arms. Isaizel
fell found in dutch Hill's pit, but his whispers still
echoed when the witches spin. They gave men the blade,
the curse, the fire taught them secrets to heaven. Now
the stars can spire. The flood came down, but the
blood remained. Now we fight in the spirit, holy war
on the.

Speaker 5 (01:05:47):
Brain, God.

Speaker 6 (01:05:59):
For God, the spit apocalypse coas like I'm John on
pat most I was flamed Brad with the verse that
of slap Ghost Raphost.

Speaker 3 (01:06:14):
Of the Seraphim Pal mccleatt, sitting on our walk through dimensions,
where the spirit saint channel to Belice told that Jash
too can't built cities. But the spirits flew from Mount Herman.
They dropped in thirteen's pack, signed and blood. Now they
horn our dreams. They tore the enchantments, signs in the skies,
named the constellations and porte man's lives.

Speaker 5 (01:06:33):
Now we chased big Foot, nah the stag kin.

Speaker 3 (01:06:36):
Of remnant left over from netfoilim sin to a man
in shadows, sirens and lake skin walkers prowling shrouded in face,
but the saint. No fairy tale of d and d quest.
It's a spiritual war, armored up with.

Speaker 5 (01:06:48):
The blessed.

Speaker 6 (01:06:52):
Against the principalities, powers, brulers of darkness, and.

Speaker 3 (01:06:58):
Play ripped from watched. How I studied the scrolls, line
the wiscripture. Then I least up souls every game and.

Speaker 5 (01:07:04):
Got a route.

Speaker 3 (01:07:05):
Every lie got a name, And that.

Speaker 7 (01:07:07):
Serpent still whispering, he ain't changed the game.

Speaker 3 (01:07:09):
Liling in the window came in the midst but I
walked with the lamb, not a fang nor fast. The
veils torn, but the war rain't done. We in the
fourth watch now waiting for the sun mark of the beast,
digital change, coarse light prophets trying to high jack brains,
but were bringing out the truth. No sugar, no gloss,
just ruggie gospel piled to the.

Speaker 7 (01:07:29):
Cross whisper to the last

Speaker 3 (01:07:49):
To the west man Room, as it was in the
days of Noah, so shall it be in the coming
of the Son of Man.