April 23, 2025 • 33 mins
John Blakey joins Claire Pedrick to talk about his new book, Force for Good and to discuss the challenges and opportunities for leaders today. John shares the inspiration behind his book, his insights on authentic leadership, and the importance of hope and community in navigating our complex world.
Key Takeaways:
- The global pandemic has significantly impacted leadership dynamics.
- Purpose-driven leadership is essential in uncertain times.
- Writing can be a powerful tool for personal reflection.
- Community plays a crucial role in supporting leaders.
- Authenticity is increasingly important but challenging.
- Hope is a central theme in leadership.
- Naivety can sometimes lead to boldness.
Sound Bites:
- "There's more of me in it."
- "I write to make sense of things."
- "Community is a fantastic resource."
- "I'm calling people to be themselves."
- "Naivety can create boldness."
- "The value in this book is hope."
Contact John through LinkedIn
Contact Claire by emailing info@3dcoaching.com or checking out her 3D Coaching Supervision Community
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Coming Up:
- Open Table on Inclusion in 1-1 Coaching
Keywords: leadership, purpose-driven, authenticity, community, writing, personal experience, resilience, hope, coaching, business
We love having a variety of guests join us! Please remember that inviting someone to participate does not mean we necessarily endorse their views or opinions. We believe in open conversation and sharing different perspectives.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:14):
Hello and welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn where John Blakey is back totalk about his new book which is very exciting.
Just a reminder, Force for Good nice promotion there, I'm sure there'll be more.
Just a reminder if you would love to share this episode with a friend or a colleague thatwould be amazing for us because that broadens our audience so if you like it please share
(00:41):
it.
John, hello.
Good morning, Claire.
It's great to be back.
I remember fondly our conversation last time.
You asked me some great questions, but given that you are a master coach, I know that youare going to ask me some great questions.
I'm not going to do a great big introduction about you.
Do you know what's really funny?
I'm chairing a panel discussion at the weekend where I've been asked to introduce somebodyand they've sent me the biography.
(01:10):
And if I read what they've given me, everybody will have left by the time I finishedtalking because it's really boring and he sounds really interesting.
So I'm not going to do any boring introduction of you.
I'm just going to say, so I'm not going to do any introduction at all.
fair enough.
It's your show.
It's your show.
If you want an introduction to John, book him up on LinkedIn.
(01:33):
So John, you've got a new book out.
No, false for good!
So now you have a trilogy.
Yes, I have a trilogy.
I have a box set.
I talk about it now that I've managed to get to a box set.
When you have two books, you can't really have a box set.
But when you get three and you and you you've had this experience, of course, you can havea you can have a box set.
(01:58):
So, yeah, you know, there's something there's something nice about a trilogy.
Nice, have you got a box?
No, no, I haven't actually literally got the box set, but it would be quite nice idea,even if it's just one that I put my three copies in to have like an official box set would
be would be quite nice.
There's an amazing book binder here in Malvern who I'm sure would make you a bespoke boxif you wanted one.
(02:24):
Yeah.
Well, there you go.
I'll put it on my Christmas list, although it's a little bit of a long way on
Indeed, indeed.
So tell us the story behind the new book.
Yeah, story behind the new book, inspiration behind the new book was really the globalpandemic and my experience of working with leaders through that time and also my own
(02:47):
experience of being a leader through that time and not just that time, but the last fiveyears, you know, we've had a global pandemic, we've had and I've still got a war in
Europe, we've got a mental health crisis, we've had a cost of living crisis.
It's been a tough time.
Sometimes I don't think we pause and recognize that, you know, as much as we could.
(03:09):
It's been a tough time and leaders like everybody else have been under pressure.
They've learned lessons.
And all of that work really right in the new book, Force for Good, was me trying to makesense of my experience, my clients' experience, and share it in a way that hopefully might
(03:31):
resonate and help.
purpose-driven leaders who are wanting to thrive and are wanting to be a Force for Good ina very uncertain world.
Wow, and more uncertain now than when you put your last full stop in.
Exactly, exactly.
Yeah, it's just it's a disrupting and a disrupted time.
And I don't expect that that's going to stop anytime soon.
(03:54):
So if leaders want to be a Force for Good and be purpose led, and at times that might feellike they're swimming against the tide, then they're going to need to be strong and fair
and well supported to do that job well and to thrive whilst they're doing that job.
So
So yeah, that was very much the inspiration for the book.
(04:17):
It's interesting compared to the last book, The Trust of the Executive, which was based onacademic research.
This is very much field research.
And it's very much about the lived experience of my clients and myself in these last fiveyears.
That's really interesting because there's a podcast coming up with Oscar Trimboli wherehe's talking from the research perspective and I'm talking from the lived experience
(04:44):
perspective and where they meet.
We had a really interesting conversation about where they meet.
So where have been the connections for you?
What's been interesting about the academic versus the lived experience?
Well, the publisher said to me about this book, Force for Good, that it's more personal.
You know, I said to them, you know, what do you notice?
(05:04):
Because they read and edited the first, know, trust executive and they read and editedthis book.
It was the same person.
I said, you know, it's interesting.
Just get your perspective.
What do you think is similar and different?
The theme is there's a continuation of the theme around purpose and trust and businessstanding for something bigger, leaders in business standing for something bigger.
(05:26):
That theme is still there.
But the style, when you're not writing with an academic sort of oversight, I think itgives you more freedom to be a bit more personal, to bring a bit more emotion into the
work.
(05:46):
When you're writing more academically, there's more precision, there's more rigor, andjust different styles.
And I probably enjoyed...
enjoyed writing this book.
This book's been a lot of fun and it is a lot of fun.
The Trust Executive was the result of six years academic research.
(06:07):
Academic research is great, can you call it fun at times?
Maybe, but it's tough, know, and it's rigorous and it does sort of have a discipline aboutit that means that, yeah, you've got to stick to the...
the path a bit more.
You can't go down as many B roads as I did with with course for good.
(06:32):
I love that.
It sounds like you said six years research and then you had to write the book.
Yeah, well actually I wrote the book after four years, four years into the research Iwrote the book because the publisher wanted the book and then I went back finished the
research and then and then the second edition of the Trust Executive in 2020 had all thefull research in it so I was quite pleased to get that second edition out because it had
(06:58):
the full research in whereas the first book had like two-thirds of the of the picture init so you know that that's again I suppose that having to
you know, what the different demands of academic institutions, publishers, your audience,and like everything else, you're looking to, you know, build those relationships and they
(07:22):
have different needs and different expectations sometimes.
Yeah, yeah, and then the new one sounds like it's coming from your soul.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's more of, there's more of me in it.
And I think I don't know if you whether you've had this experience that the more youwrite, the more books you write, like everything else, it's, it's, it's about building
(07:44):
confidence.
And, you know, you bring in more of yourself to the table each time you write, I think,because you you do build confidence, not everybody
is going to love what you write, but you know, do get people who get value from it andfind it really helpful and that gives you confidence to say, okay, well, let's bring a bit
(08:05):
more to the table and let's see what you make of that.
Yes and let me write the book that addresses the things that I don't like when I when Iwatch people who read the first book.
You go did I say that?
Maybe I should say that in a different way.
yeah, yeah, you learn, you build your confidence and but it's a great, great journey goingthe book writing journey, you know, it's a lot of fun and it's a privilege to have the
(08:36):
opportunity to do it and you know, I have to try to pinch myself every day to not eventhough this is the third book, you know, not to take it for granted to still feel it like
the first time and and
not normalize the experience of writing books and doing what I do because yeah you knowit's fantastic.
That's amazing.
(08:57):
So where do you write?
Where do I write?
I write in all sorts of different places.
I don't have a special writing place.
I'm someone who can sort of, I need half a day to write.
I can't write sort of half an hour between doing emails.
(09:18):
I need half a day.
So I need to blank out some time.
But if you give me half a day and you let me loose, then wherever I am,
I could write on someone's kitchen top, I could write in the tray, I could write sort of,yeah, the place is okay for me as long as I'm sort of on my own.
(09:42):
And yeah, I don't have a favorite writing place.
I know some people do.
Well, it sounds like your favorite right place is wherever you are.
Yeah, yeah, and you know, when you first asked me that question, where do you write?
I mean, I write in my in my head and in my heart.
So so those things are always with me and I just have to listen.
(10:03):
You know, I need to listen to write.
It sounds odd to say that maybe, but I just if I'm listening well, then something willcome and I will capture it.
And I don't know if you've had this experience, Claire, but and I had it a lot with thenew book, because again, it was a more
blank sheet sort of starting point.
I would start a page or start a chapter and I had literally no idea where it was going.
(10:29):
And I would write a page and I'd look back and read it and I'm thinking, Oh, where didthat come from?
You know, it's it's sort of surprises me and you know, I like that because it's it's sortof got a freshness about it and a real creativity that means you're
Yeah, you're sort of right.
(10:49):
Yeah, because I said I wrote this to make sense of things.
And I'm doing it for myself, as well as my audience, you know, that I wanted to make senseof stuff, those things I didn't really, that bothered me and, and writing is a way for me
to process, you know, my thoughts.
And when you write things down, as we all know, it gives you a different perspective.
(11:14):
And when we work, we coaching clients, you know, often
We're encouraging people to journal, encouraging people to write things down because itgives you like a third person perspective.
And that can be very helpful in clarifying your thinking and, and yeah, finding, joiningthe dots around disparate thoughts.
(11:41):
bit of distance.
Yeah, a bit of distance, bit of perspective.
Detachment.
Yeah, you know.
You've just helped me make sense of my very bad writing week.
you've been writing this week?
last week,
(12:01):
But when you said, I write to make sense of things, that's such a beautiful description ofthe not planned out, emergent, I need to sit down and see what happens kind of style,
isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, you know, I don't, don't play music.
(12:24):
don't, you know, this is my way of doing it.
Other people will do it in other ways.
Like I think, you know, I watch people play musical instruments and I see that as a greatexpression.
And I imagine there's a similar feeling that you can get from, from playing music.
So, so people do it in different ways.
(12:46):
And writing is just my way of,
that creative expression.
Nice, so what's your dream for this one?
Well, I'm sort of living the dream really.
mean, you know, it sounds a bit, it sounds a bit naff, sounds a bit twee, but yesterdayI'm here at the Scotsman Hotel in Edinburgh.
(13:10):
Yesterday I delivered the keynote at the B Corp conference, the first ever B Corpconference in Scotland.
150 people in the room and I'm sharing with them about Force for Good, How to Thrive as aPurpose Dream leader and
So that audience, that opportunity to engage with that audience for me is really the dreamof this book.
(13:38):
It's to get to those leaders who are pioneers, who are standing for their values andcommitting their businesses to being a Force for Good.
So that B Corp community, I always had the B Corp community in mind when I was thinkingabout this book, the strapline of B Corp is making business a Force for Good.
(13:58):
My title of the book is Force for Good.
I'm obviously, it's, I'm calling to that, to that audience.
And yesterday through a series of serendipitous events, I got to stand in front of thatroom and I got to, to share on this.
(14:19):
And so that's the dream, Claire.
You know, I'm, I'm, I'm going to the U S later in the year.
I'll gauge a group there in the U S on this, on this topic.
obviously US particularly, I mean, I don't know what sort of reception I'm going to get inthe US, but it feels like an interesting time to go there.
I went to Estonia to share about this book.
(14:41):
I went to Dubai, you know, that's the dream.
And what's been lovely about those trips, all of them have come about throughrelationships that I had with people over many years.
maybe people who I might've first met when I wrote challenging coaching or when I wrotetrusted executive.
(15:02):
So it's been a real opportunity to reconnect with my network to look up some old chums.
And then they've said, you know, how about you do this?
How about we do that?
so, yeah, it's been a real...
and compared to the other two books I've been much more relaxed about it in a sense of Idon't really have massive expectations for this book in a sense of I'm not trying to prove
(15:29):
anything really with this book.
You know when you first write a book I think you're trying to prove that you can write.
You know when I just except because of that academic sort of expectation there was a bitof weight of expectation on that but this one as I say it's got a free spirit about it.
(15:49):
And, you know, I don't have massive expectations and I think that's made the journeyreally fun.
yeah, I'm not, I'm not like, I haven't got like heavy goals around it.
You know, it's a light project and I'm really enjoying the fact that I haven't put it intothat.
(16:12):
I put big expectations on its shoulders.
It's a bit like having kids, isn't it?
You know,
I often talk about writing books as like having kids, know, I've got two sons and I've gotthree books and you know, you can put heavy expectations on your kids and or you can let
them be who they are and live their version of the dream, whatever that is to them.
(16:37):
And, you know, that's hard, you know, you as a parent, you care and you have expectations,you know, it's hard.
not have them.
So I think, yeah, again, maybe the third child is also a more liberated soul than thefirst or second one.
I was the second child, you know, the first, yeah, the second child.
(17:00):
So I think, yeah, just different, different expectations you have.
So long answer to your question, but I do feel like I'm living the dream of this book atthe moment.
That's lovely and it sounds as though as you're talking about how you're getting yourspeaking engagements, it sounds as though it's part of a movement or a tribe or some kind
(17:26):
of connectivity thing across the world.
Yeah, there are different communities, business communities.
B Corp I mentioned Vistage is a business network that I've been very closely associatedwith over the years.
The International Coach Federation I still have, even though I'm not as active in thatcommunities I used to be, but I still have personal relationships that I built from that
(17:50):
time.
So yeah, there are communities.
I talk a lot in the book about community and the value of community as part of the
the nourishment of a leader and that community is a fantastic resource to help with yourresilience and motivation in tough times.
(18:11):
So part of thriving, I think, is to think about what communities are you part of and howmuch of yourself you invest in in those communities.
Because I feel over my career, there's been some great communities that I've...
been part of and, I probably never realized I got involved in some of them a little bit byaccident or for different reasons.
(18:36):
You know, I got involved with the ICF because I wanted to get the credential, you know,and it, but, but, but then I realized I was part of the community.
and B Corp, a lot of, a lot of businesses that go through the B Corp assessment, they doit because they want to get the badge.
But once they've got in.
(18:56):
to the community, they realize how valuable the community is.
And the reason they stay is because of the community.
so I think community is something very important.
And certainly this book has tapped into, as you say, a number of different communitiesthat I've been part of over time.
Yes, as you're talking it really makes me think about connection.
(19:23):
and connection around what's important and values and all those important things.
Yeah.
Because you're calling people to be different, aren't you?
Well, I'm calling people to be themselves really.
Which is different.
(19:44):
Yeah, I'm calling people to be themselves.
Which is different.
Yeah.
So what are people saying about that?
about the idea of being themselves.
Yes, and being different.
(20:07):
Well, if I think about the audience yesterday, because of the times that we're in rightnow...
I think people are a little bit more scared about being themselves than they were a coupleof months ago.
You know, it goes through cycles, doesn't it?
(20:27):
know, sometimes it's sort of fashionable to be yourself and sometimes it's notfashionable.
I wonder if we're going into a period where it's not going to be as fashionable to beyourself.
And that means therefore you're going to need more courage to continue.
to uphold that view and that way of being.
(20:53):
So yeah, I think as we know as coaches, mean, there's been a movement for a long timereally of people wanting to claim that personal authenticity.
And it's been great.
Yeah, it's been great.
But I wonder whether we're just at a point in the wider
(21:15):
societal sort of context where it's going to get a bit harder.
And maybe we, you know, we're all going to need to adapt to that and reflect on that alittle bit because the drive for personal authenticity and being yourself creates a
complex, diverse world.
(21:36):
And not everybody feels comfortable with that.
In fact, all of us at some point don't feel comfortable with it.
because we have to keep adapting to everybody else who's different.
And that's hard work.
It takes a lot of time and effort.
So I think, yeah, we're at an interesting point in that whole cycle.
(22:00):
I was just thinking as you were talking, if I want to be different, then I have to bereally tolerant of everyone else being different.
Yeah, yeah.
But as you were talking, I was thinking about speaking out.
Because it feels that the world is in a place now where it's more important to speak outand it's more difficult to speak out.
(22:23):
Yeah, yeah, it could get very hard to speak out.
You know, there could be a lot of consequences of speaking out.
And I don't know, you know, at what point, at what point do you not speak out?
At what point do you speak out?
At what point do you fit in?
(22:46):
And at what point do you not fit in?
So yeah, I'm challenged by that.
I'm worried by that, must admit.
Because I can see it turn in quite quickly.
And you can sort of see it turning quite quickly, particularly when we look at events inthe US.
mean, you can see how quickly protest can become flattery and accommodation of newbehaviors that previously...
(23:20):
would not have been tolerated, but nobody's, everyone's too tired to speak out or toofrightened to speak out in the presence of power.
Yeah, we're not actually that brave most of the time.
Because, yeah, we don't want to get hurt.
(23:45):
And there are different risks, aren't there, at different seasons of our own personallives.
I was talking to somebody yesterday and I said, at my age, I've got nothing to lose.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I think I say that from a position where I think that when I was younger, I think Idid have something to lose.
(24:07):
And therefore that means that the opportunity and the courage, as you said, to speak outor to do whatever will be different for different phases.
Because if it all falls over now, it's not the end of the world.
If it all falls over when you've got mortgage to pay and all those other things, it, youknow, it matters a lot.
Yeah, Yeah, there's a different stages of life and being an elder of the tribe means thatyou get certain, some things are easier, some things are harder.
(24:42):
The thing I miss actually, the thing I miss is the naivety.
Because sometimes naivety prompts you to speak out, because you don't actually know whatyou're doing.
You don't even know you're being brave.
And everybody else is looking at you thinking,
my goodness, what have they just said?
And you have got no idea that you've stood on a landmine and you know, it's, it's about tobe, but I sort of miss the naivety.
(25:06):
mean, because I think naivety can create boldness.
and you know, I think, so I think some of the, the, the advantage of that earlier stage oflife is, is, the naivety.
cause people talk about naivety, naivety is a bad thing.
But actually, I think there's a huge amount of good in naivety.
(25:28):
I wouldn't have done half of things that I'd done if I hadn't have been ridiculouslynaive.
Yeah
I'm thinking about that fairy, I don't know, we call it a fairy tale or something.
You know, the emperor's new clothes, where the emperor's parading naked through the streetand everybody's pretending that the emperor's wearing clothes, except for the child who
(25:49):
says, you're not wearing any clothes.
Yeah.
So what's the child being brave or what's the child being naive?
I think probably the child has been naive.
You know, just saying it as it is because that's what they saw.
Whereas when you get older, you weigh it up before you say anything, you're weighing upconsequences.
What about this?
(26:10):
What if that happened?
What if that happened?
And, you know, before you know what's happened, the moment's passed and you've not saidanything.
so that's a beautiful thing, isn't it?
That time link, the timeliness of courage.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, but I'm you know that that yeah, I can see it.
(26:33):
You know, I go out there and I talk about purpose driven leadership and being a Force forGood about trust and You know, I am getting and I said this yesterday in the in the
session yesterday I am getting in the last month people saying to me at a certain point inthe workshop or whatever John, that's all very well But what about Donald Trump?
(26:55):
So I'm getting that sort of coming up now and it's like people are saying
Well, this doesn't work anymore, does it?
And I'm going, why not?
Because this isn't about what is politically desirable.
This is about your values and your principles.
(27:16):
And I am sort of quite shocked at how quickly the tone in some of those conversations ischanging and how quickly people are ditching stuff.
that I thought was not just a frivolous, superficial, fashionable thing, but I thought wasmuch deeper seated than that.
(27:39):
And I saw a quote on LinkedIn about this, which I thought was great.
This is Groucho Marx quote that says, well, these are my principles.
And if you don't like them, well, I've got others.
And it's like that.
It's like I'm thinking what you mean you adopted these principles around diversity andinclusion.
(28:03):
because you thought it was what everybody else was doing and it had the blessing of somepolitical party rather than that you thought it was the right thing to do according to
your values and your principles.
And I'm sort of like realizing that there's been a lot of this green washing, a lot ofthis diversity washing, purpose washing, there's a huge amount of it.
(28:29):
And the tree is going to be shaken now and...
know, lot of people fall out of the tree because they were never holding on strong enoughin the first place.
Sorry, I'm getting a bit passionate there.
I think there's passion to be, know, passion's important, isn't it?
And there's something in there about power.
(28:55):
people take power, don't they?
You know, some people take a lot of power, but actually, they only have more power when wealso give it to them.
Yes, yes.
Well, that's that's one of the conversations I had in a workshop a couple of weeks agowhere this came up and somebody said, it's all very well, but what about Donald Trump?
I did get passionate.
(29:16):
And I I heard myself saying at one point, who invited Donald Trump into this room?
Because I didn't.
You know, who invited him into your head?
Because I didn't.
And
we've got to be, I think, yeah, who do we want to invite into the room?
Who do you want to invite into your head?
(29:37):
Because we don't have to invite, you know, we've got a choice around that.
And I think being more discerning about how these things are influencing us and whatvoices we're paying attention to and the way that can start to really change the
atmosphere in places.
(29:58):
I mean, it's amazing, isn't it?
I've got to credit him because it's just amazing that he's able to be in every room in theworld at the moment.
I had a call with somebody in Hungary and they go, I'll have you through the conversation.
Yeah, but what about Donald Trump?
I'm thinking, is there any way that this guy is not turning up at the moment?
(30:21):
So you have to say, look, that's great for him.
Good on him.
I don't know how he did it, but he's done it.
But then you have to go, okay,
What about my voice?
Where is my voice turning up?
Does my voice not matter?
Am I just a sort of pawn in this Donald Trump game and that I'm just letting him pull allmy strings through his dominance of the media?
(30:49):
mean, it's like, so I think it's a huge wake-up call, but you can tell I'm, yeah, I'm sortof, I'm really quite passionate about it.
I can hear that and the thing about volume, where's my volume?
In my head, around my principles.
(31:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Am I listening to that voice?
Or am I just going to get let that be drowned out?
And how brave, how brave will I be when it comes to the crunch?
I mean, I don't know how brave I would be.
It's extraordinary, isn't it, that it's significantly more important now than it was whenyou started writing it.
(31:38):
Yes, yes, I thought I was writing a really fashionable book, I now realise I'm writingsomething very erratical.
or prophetic.
Well, yeah, I took about hope, but this is a book about hope.
I don't profess to be, you know, like, able to know the future, but I am someone who hopesabout a future.
(32:03):
And the value that's in this book is hope.
What a good place to end.
The value in this book is hope.
So the book is Force for Good by John Blakey available from all good book sources.
How to thrive as a purpose-driven leader.
And if people want to join in the conversation, how do they make contact with you John?
(32:29):
Through LinkedIn is the best way.
Yeah, I'm pretty active on LinkedIn.
Don't do Instagram, don't do Facebook.
But yeah, I'm pretty active on LinkedIn.
So yeah, welcome the debate, welcome the engagement.
And I hope that listeners have found that stirred them a little bit this morning.
(32:51):
I think it will have and do put comments in the chat below wherever you're listening toyour podcast.
Thank you, John, for coming to the Coaching In.
Thank you, Claire.
Pleasure.
and thank you everyone for listening.
See you next time.
Bye bye.
Hello and welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn where John Blakey is back totalk about his new book which is very exciting.
Just a reminder, Force for Good nice promotion there, I'm sure there'll be more.
Just a reminder if you would love to share this episode with a friend or a colleague thatwould be amazing for us because that broadens our audience so if you like it please share
(00:41):
it.
John, hello.
Good morning, Claire.
It's great to be back.
I remember fondly our conversation last time.
You asked me some great questions, but given that you are a master coach, I know that youare going to ask me some great questions.
I'm not going to do a great big introduction about you.
Do you know what's really funny?
I'm chairing a panel discussion at the weekend where I've been asked to introduce somebodyand they've sent me the biography.
(01:10):
And if I read what they've given me, everybody will have left by the time I finishedtalking because it's really boring and he sounds really interesting.
So I'm not going to do any boring introduction of you.
I'm just going to say, so I'm not going to do any introduction at all.
fair enough.
It's your show.
It's your show.
If you want an introduction to John, book him up on LinkedIn.
(01:33):
So John, you've got a new book out.
No, false for good!
So now you have a trilogy.
Yes, I have a trilogy.
I have a box set.
I talk about it now that I've managed to get to a box set.
When you have two books, you can't really have a box set.
But when you get three and you and you you've had this experience, of course, you can havea you can have a box set.
(01:58):
So, yeah, you know, there's something there's something nice about a trilogy.
Nice, have you got a box?
No, no, I haven't actually literally got the box set, but it would be quite nice idea,even if it's just one that I put my three copies in to have like an official box set would
be would be quite nice.
There's an amazing book binder here in Malvern who I'm sure would make you a bespoke boxif you wanted one.
(02:24):
Yeah.
Well, there you go.
I'll put it on my Christmas list, although it's a little bit of a long way on
Indeed, indeed.
So tell us the story behind the new book.
Yeah, story behind the new book, inspiration behind the new book was really the globalpandemic and my experience of working with leaders through that time and also my own
(02:47):
experience of being a leader through that time and not just that time, but the last fiveyears, you know, we've had a global pandemic, we've had and I've still got a war in
Europe, we've got a mental health crisis, we've had a cost of living crisis.
It's been a tough time.
Sometimes I don't think we pause and recognize that, you know, as much as we could.
(03:09):
It's been a tough time and leaders like everybody else have been under pressure.
They've learned lessons.
And all of that work really right in the new book, Force for Good, was me trying to makesense of my experience, my clients' experience, and share it in a way that hopefully might
(03:31):
resonate and help.
purpose-driven leaders who are wanting to thrive and are wanting to be a Force for Good ina very uncertain world.
Wow, and more uncertain now than when you put your last full stop in.
Exactly, exactly.
Yeah, it's just it's a disrupting and a disrupted time.
And I don't expect that that's going to stop anytime soon.
(03:54):
So if leaders want to be a Force for Good and be purpose led, and at times that might feellike they're swimming against the tide, then they're going to need to be strong and fair
and well supported to do that job well and to thrive whilst they're doing that job.
So
So yeah, that was very much the inspiration for the book.
(04:17):
It's interesting compared to the last book, The Trust of the Executive, which was based onacademic research.
This is very much field research.
And it's very much about the lived experience of my clients and myself in these last fiveyears.
That's really interesting because there's a podcast coming up with Oscar Trimboli wherehe's talking from the research perspective and I'm talking from the lived experience
(04:44):
perspective and where they meet.
We had a really interesting conversation about where they meet.
So where have been the connections for you?
What's been interesting about the academic versus the lived experience?
Well, the publisher said to me about this book, Force for Good, that it's more personal.
You know, I said to them, you know, what do you notice?
(05:04):
Because they read and edited the first, know, trust executive and they read and editedthis book.
It was the same person.
I said, you know, it's interesting.
Just get your perspective.
What do you think is similar and different?
The theme is there's a continuation of the theme around purpose and trust and businessstanding for something bigger, leaders in business standing for something bigger.
(05:26):
That theme is still there.
But the style, when you're not writing with an academic sort of oversight, I think itgives you more freedom to be a bit more personal, to bring a bit more emotion into the
work.
(05:46):
When you're writing more academically, there's more precision, there's more rigor, andjust different styles.
And I probably enjoyed...
enjoyed writing this book.
This book's been a lot of fun and it is a lot of fun.
The Trust Executive was the result of six years academic research.
(06:07):
Academic research is great, can you call it fun at times?
Maybe, but it's tough, know, and it's rigorous and it does sort of have a discipline aboutit that means that, yeah, you've got to stick to the...
the path a bit more.
You can't go down as many B roads as I did with with course for good.
(06:32):
I love that.
It sounds like you said six years research and then you had to write the book.
Yeah, well actually I wrote the book after four years, four years into the research Iwrote the book because the publisher wanted the book and then I went back finished the
research and then and then the second edition of the Trust Executive in 2020 had all thefull research in it so I was quite pleased to get that second edition out because it had
(06:58):
the full research in whereas the first book had like two-thirds of the of the picture init so you know that that's again I suppose that having to
you know, what the different demands of academic institutions, publishers, your audience,and like everything else, you're looking to, you know, build those relationships and they
(07:22):
have different needs and different expectations sometimes.
Yeah, yeah, and then the new one sounds like it's coming from your soul.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's more of, there's more of me in it.
And I think I don't know if you whether you've had this experience that the more youwrite, the more books you write, like everything else, it's, it's, it's about building
(07:44):
confidence.
And, you know, you bring in more of yourself to the table each time you write, I think,because you you do build confidence, not everybody
is going to love what you write, but you know, do get people who get value from it andfind it really helpful and that gives you confidence to say, okay, well, let's bring a bit
(08:05):
more to the table and let's see what you make of that.
Yes and let me write the book that addresses the things that I don't like when I when Iwatch people who read the first book.
You go did I say that?
Maybe I should say that in a different way.
yeah, yeah, you learn, you build your confidence and but it's a great, great journey goingthe book writing journey, you know, it's a lot of fun and it's a privilege to have the
(08:36):
opportunity to do it and you know, I have to try to pinch myself every day to not eventhough this is the third book, you know, not to take it for granted to still feel it like
the first time and and
not normalize the experience of writing books and doing what I do because yeah you knowit's fantastic.
That's amazing.
(08:57):
So where do you write?
Where do I write?
I write in all sorts of different places.
I don't have a special writing place.
I'm someone who can sort of, I need half a day to write.
I can't write sort of half an hour between doing emails.
(09:18):
I need half a day.
So I need to blank out some time.
But if you give me half a day and you let me loose, then wherever I am,
I could write on someone's kitchen top, I could write in the tray, I could write sort of,yeah, the place is okay for me as long as I'm sort of on my own.
(09:42):
And yeah, I don't have a favorite writing place.
I know some people do.
Well, it sounds like your favorite right place is wherever you are.
Yeah, yeah, and you know, when you first asked me that question, where do you write?
I mean, I write in my in my head and in my heart.
So so those things are always with me and I just have to listen.
(10:03):
You know, I need to listen to write.
It sounds odd to say that maybe, but I just if I'm listening well, then something willcome and I will capture it.
And I don't know if you've had this experience, Claire, but and I had it a lot with thenew book, because again, it was a more
blank sheet sort of starting point.
I would start a page or start a chapter and I had literally no idea where it was going.
(10:29):
And I would write a page and I'd look back and read it and I'm thinking, Oh, where didthat come from?
You know, it's it's sort of surprises me and you know, I like that because it's it's sortof got a freshness about it and a real creativity that means you're
Yeah, you're sort of right.
(10:49):
Yeah, because I said I wrote this to make sense of things.
And I'm doing it for myself, as well as my audience, you know, that I wanted to make senseof stuff, those things I didn't really, that bothered me and, and writing is a way for me
to process, you know, my thoughts.
And when you write things down, as we all know, it gives you a different perspective.
(11:14):
And when we work, we coaching clients, you know, often
We're encouraging people to journal, encouraging people to write things down because itgives you like a third person perspective.
And that can be very helpful in clarifying your thinking and, and yeah, finding, joiningthe dots around disparate thoughts.
(11:41):
bit of distance.
Yeah, a bit of distance, bit of perspective.
Detachment.
Yeah, you know.
You've just helped me make sense of my very bad writing week.
you've been writing this week?
last week,
(12:01):
But when you said, I write to make sense of things, that's such a beautiful description ofthe not planned out, emergent, I need to sit down and see what happens kind of style,
isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, you know, I don't, don't play music.
(12:24):
don't, you know, this is my way of doing it.
Other people will do it in other ways.
Like I think, you know, I watch people play musical instruments and I see that as a greatexpression.
And I imagine there's a similar feeling that you can get from, from playing music.
So, so people do it in different ways.
(12:46):
And writing is just my way of,
that creative expression.
Nice, so what's your dream for this one?
Well, I'm sort of living the dream really.
mean, you know, it sounds a bit, it sounds a bit naff, sounds a bit twee, but yesterdayI'm here at the Scotsman Hotel in Edinburgh.
(13:10):
Yesterday I delivered the keynote at the B Corp conference, the first ever B Corpconference in Scotland.
150 people in the room and I'm sharing with them about Force for Good, How to Thrive as aPurpose Dream leader and
So that audience, that opportunity to engage with that audience for me is really the dreamof this book.
(13:38):
It's to get to those leaders who are pioneers, who are standing for their values andcommitting their businesses to being a Force for Good.
So that B Corp community, I always had the B Corp community in mind when I was thinkingabout this book, the strapline of B Corp is making business a Force for Good.
(13:58):
My title of the book is Force for Good.
I'm obviously, it's, I'm calling to that, to that audience.
And yesterday through a series of serendipitous events, I got to stand in front of thatroom and I got to, to share on this.
(14:19):
And so that's the dream, Claire.
You know, I'm, I'm, I'm going to the U S later in the year.
I'll gauge a group there in the U S on this, on this topic.
obviously US particularly, I mean, I don't know what sort of reception I'm going to get inthe US, but it feels like an interesting time to go there.
I went to Estonia to share about this book.
(14:41):
I went to Dubai, you know, that's the dream.
And what's been lovely about those trips, all of them have come about throughrelationships that I had with people over many years.
maybe people who I might've first met when I wrote challenging coaching or when I wrotetrusted executive.
(15:02):
So it's been a real opportunity to reconnect with my network to look up some old chums.
And then they've said, you know, how about you do this?
How about we do that?
so, yeah, it's been a real...
and compared to the other two books I've been much more relaxed about it in a sense of Idon't really have massive expectations for this book in a sense of I'm not trying to prove
(15:29):
anything really with this book.
You know when you first write a book I think you're trying to prove that you can write.
You know when I just except because of that academic sort of expectation there was a bitof weight of expectation on that but this one as I say it's got a free spirit about it.
(15:49):
And, you know, I don't have massive expectations and I think that's made the journeyreally fun.
yeah, I'm not, I'm not like, I haven't got like heavy goals around it.
You know, it's a light project and I'm really enjoying the fact that I haven't put it intothat.
(16:12):
I put big expectations on its shoulders.
It's a bit like having kids, isn't it?
You know,
I often talk about writing books as like having kids, know, I've got two sons and I've gotthree books and you know, you can put heavy expectations on your kids and or you can let
them be who they are and live their version of the dream, whatever that is to them.
(16:37):
And, you know, that's hard, you know, you as a parent, you care and you have expectations,you know, it's hard.
not have them.
So I think, yeah, again, maybe the third child is also a more liberated soul than thefirst or second one.
I was the second child, you know, the first, yeah, the second child.
(17:00):
So I think, yeah, just different, different expectations you have.
So long answer to your question, but I do feel like I'm living the dream of this book atthe moment.
That's lovely and it sounds as though as you're talking about how you're getting yourspeaking engagements, it sounds as though it's part of a movement or a tribe or some kind
(17:26):
of connectivity thing across the world.
Yeah, there are different communities, business communities.
B Corp I mentioned Vistage is a business network that I've been very closely associatedwith over the years.
The International Coach Federation I still have, even though I'm not as active in thatcommunities I used to be, but I still have personal relationships that I built from that
(17:50):
time.
So yeah, there are communities.
I talk a lot in the book about community and the value of community as part of the
the nourishment of a leader and that community is a fantastic resource to help with yourresilience and motivation in tough times.
(18:11):
So part of thriving, I think, is to think about what communities are you part of and howmuch of yourself you invest in in those communities.
Because I feel over my career, there's been some great communities that I've...
been part of and, I probably never realized I got involved in some of them a little bit byaccident or for different reasons.
(18:36):
You know, I got involved with the ICF because I wanted to get the credential, you know,and it, but, but, but then I realized I was part of the community.
and B Corp, a lot of, a lot of businesses that go through the B Corp assessment, they doit because they want to get the badge.
But once they've got in.
(18:56):
to the community, they realize how valuable the community is.
And the reason they stay is because of the community.
so I think community is something very important.
And certainly this book has tapped into, as you say, a number of different communitiesthat I've been part of over time.
Yes, as you're talking it really makes me think about connection.
(19:23):
and connection around what's important and values and all those important things.
Yeah.
Because you're calling people to be different, aren't you?
Well, I'm calling people to be themselves really.
Which is different.
(19:44):
Yeah, I'm calling people to be themselves.
Which is different.
Yeah.
So what are people saying about that?
about the idea of being themselves.
Yes, and being different.
(20:07):
Well, if I think about the audience yesterday, because of the times that we're in rightnow...
I think people are a little bit more scared about being themselves than they were a coupleof months ago.
You know, it goes through cycles, doesn't it?
(20:27):
know, sometimes it's sort of fashionable to be yourself and sometimes it's notfashionable.
I wonder if we're going into a period where it's not going to be as fashionable to beyourself.
And that means therefore you're going to need more courage to continue.
to uphold that view and that way of being.
(20:53):
So yeah, I think as we know as coaches, mean, there's been a movement for a long timereally of people wanting to claim that personal authenticity.
And it's been great.
Yeah, it's been great.
But I wonder whether we're just at a point in the wider
(21:15):
societal sort of context where it's going to get a bit harder.
And maybe we, you know, we're all going to need to adapt to that and reflect on that alittle bit because the drive for personal authenticity and being yourself creates a
complex, diverse world.
(21:36):
And not everybody feels comfortable with that.
In fact, all of us at some point don't feel comfortable with it.
because we have to keep adapting to everybody else who's different.
And that's hard work.
It takes a lot of time and effort.
So I think, yeah, we're at an interesting point in that whole cycle.
(22:00):
I was just thinking as you were talking, if I want to be different, then I have to bereally tolerant of everyone else being different.
Yeah, yeah.
But as you were talking, I was thinking about speaking out.
Because it feels that the world is in a place now where it's more important to speak outand it's more difficult to speak out.
(22:23):
Yeah, yeah, it could get very hard to speak out.
You know, there could be a lot of consequences of speaking out.
And I don't know, you know, at what point, at what point do you not speak out?
At what point do you speak out?
At what point do you fit in?
(22:46):
And at what point do you not fit in?
So yeah, I'm challenged by that.
I'm worried by that, must admit.
Because I can see it turn in quite quickly.
And you can sort of see it turning quite quickly, particularly when we look at events inthe US.
mean, you can see how quickly protest can become flattery and accommodation of newbehaviors that previously...
(23:20):
would not have been tolerated, but nobody's, everyone's too tired to speak out or toofrightened to speak out in the presence of power.
Yeah, we're not actually that brave most of the time.
Because, yeah, we don't want to get hurt.
(23:45):
And there are different risks, aren't there, at different seasons of our own personallives.
I was talking to somebody yesterday and I said, at my age, I've got nothing to lose.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I think I say that from a position where I think that when I was younger, I think Idid have something to lose.
(24:07):
And therefore that means that the opportunity and the courage, as you said, to speak outor to do whatever will be different for different phases.
Because if it all falls over now, it's not the end of the world.
If it all falls over when you've got mortgage to pay and all those other things, it, youknow, it matters a lot.
Yeah, Yeah, there's a different stages of life and being an elder of the tribe means thatyou get certain, some things are easier, some things are harder.
(24:42):
The thing I miss actually, the thing I miss is the naivety.
Because sometimes naivety prompts you to speak out, because you don't actually know whatyou're doing.
You don't even know you're being brave.
And everybody else is looking at you thinking,
my goodness, what have they just said?
And you have got no idea that you've stood on a landmine and you know, it's, it's about tobe, but I sort of miss the naivety.
(25:06):
mean, because I think naivety can create boldness.
and you know, I think, so I think some of the, the, the advantage of that earlier stage oflife is, is, the naivety.
cause people talk about naivety, naivety is a bad thing.
But actually, I think there's a huge amount of good in naivety.
(25:28):
I wouldn't have done half of things that I'd done if I hadn't have been ridiculouslynaive.
Yeah
I'm thinking about that fairy, I don't know, we call it a fairy tale or something.
You know, the emperor's new clothes, where the emperor's parading naked through the streetand everybody's pretending that the emperor's wearing clothes, except for the child who
(25:49):
says, you're not wearing any clothes.
Yeah.
So what's the child being brave or what's the child being naive?
I think probably the child has been naive.
You know, just saying it as it is because that's what they saw.
Whereas when you get older, you weigh it up before you say anything, you're weighing upconsequences.
What about this?
(26:10):
What if that happened?
What if that happened?
And, you know, before you know what's happened, the moment's passed and you've not saidanything.
so that's a beautiful thing, isn't it?
That time link, the timeliness of courage.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, but I'm you know that that yeah, I can see it.
(26:33):
You know, I go out there and I talk about purpose driven leadership and being a Force forGood about trust and You know, I am getting and I said this yesterday in the in the
session yesterday I am getting in the last month people saying to me at a certain point inthe workshop or whatever John, that's all very well But what about Donald Trump?
(26:55):
So I'm getting that sort of coming up now and it's like people are saying
Well, this doesn't work anymore, does it?
And I'm going, why not?
Because this isn't about what is politically desirable.
This is about your values and your principles.
(27:16):
And I am sort of quite shocked at how quickly the tone in some of those conversations ischanging and how quickly people are ditching stuff.
that I thought was not just a frivolous, superficial, fashionable thing, but I thought wasmuch deeper seated than that.
(27:39):
And I saw a quote on LinkedIn about this, which I thought was great.
This is Groucho Marx quote that says, well, these are my principles.
And if you don't like them, well, I've got others.
And it's like that.
It's like I'm thinking what you mean you adopted these principles around diversity andinclusion.
(28:03):
because you thought it was what everybody else was doing and it had the blessing of somepolitical party rather than that you thought it was the right thing to do according to
your values and your principles.
And I'm sort of like realizing that there's been a lot of this green washing, a lot ofthis diversity washing, purpose washing, there's a huge amount of it.
(28:29):
And the tree is going to be shaken now and...
know, lot of people fall out of the tree because they were never holding on strong enoughin the first place.
Sorry, I'm getting a bit passionate there.
I think there's passion to be, know, passion's important, isn't it?
And there's something in there about power.
(28:55):
people take power, don't they?
You know, some people take a lot of power, but actually, they only have more power when wealso give it to them.
Yes, yes.
Well, that's that's one of the conversations I had in a workshop a couple of weeks agowhere this came up and somebody said, it's all very well, but what about Donald Trump?
I did get passionate.
(29:16):
And I I heard myself saying at one point, who invited Donald Trump into this room?
Because I didn't.
You know, who invited him into your head?
Because I didn't.
And
we've got to be, I think, yeah, who do we want to invite into the room?
Who do you want to invite into your head?
(29:37):
Because we don't have to invite, you know, we've got a choice around that.
And I think being more discerning about how these things are influencing us and whatvoices we're paying attention to and the way that can start to really change the
atmosphere in places.
(29:58):
I mean, it's amazing, isn't it?
I've got to credit him because it's just amazing that he's able to be in every room in theworld at the moment.
I had a call with somebody in Hungary and they go, I'll have you through the conversation.
Yeah, but what about Donald Trump?
I'm thinking, is there any way that this guy is not turning up at the moment?
(30:21):
So you have to say, look, that's great for him.
Good on him.
I don't know how he did it, but he's done it.
But then you have to go, okay,
What about my voice?
Where is my voice turning up?
Does my voice not matter?
Am I just a sort of pawn in this Donald Trump game and that I'm just letting him pull allmy strings through his dominance of the media?
(30:49):
mean, it's like, so I think it's a huge wake-up call, but you can tell I'm, yeah, I'm sortof, I'm really quite passionate about it.
I can hear that and the thing about volume, where's my volume?
In my head, around my principles.
(31:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Am I listening to that voice?
Or am I just going to get let that be drowned out?
And how brave, how brave will I be when it comes to the crunch?
I mean, I don't know how brave I would be.
It's extraordinary, isn't it, that it's significantly more important now than it was whenyou started writing it.
(31:38):
Yes, yes, I thought I was writing a really fashionable book, I now realise I'm writingsomething very erratical.
or prophetic.
Well, yeah, I took about hope, but this is a book about hope.
I don't profess to be, you know, like, able to know the future, but I am someone who hopesabout a future.
(32:03):
And the value that's in this book is hope.
What a good place to end.
The value in this book is hope.
So the book is Force for Good by John Blakey available from all good book sources.
How to thrive as a purpose-driven leader.
And if people want to join in the conversation, how do they make contact with you John?
(32:29):
Through LinkedIn is the best way.
Yeah, I'm pretty active on LinkedIn.
Don't do Instagram, don't do Facebook.
But yeah, I'm pretty active on LinkedIn.
So yeah, welcome the debate, welcome the engagement.
And I hope that listeners have found that stirred them a little bit this morning.
(32:51):
I think it will have and do put comments in the chat below wherever you're listening toyour podcast.
Thank you, John, for coming to the Coaching In.
Thank you, Claire.
Pleasure.
and thank you everyone for listening.
See you next time.
Bye bye.
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