May 10, 2025 • 44 mins
In this episode of The Coaching Inn, host Claire Pedrick engages in a profound discussion with Naomi Ward and Fenella Trevillion about the complexities of coaching in diverse environments. We explore the importance of acknowledging differences, the impact of race and identity, and the necessity of vulnerability and discomfort in coaching relationships. The conversation emphasises the need for self-reflection and the role of coaches in fostering inclusive spaces where all individuals feel seen and heard. The episode concludes with a call to action for coaches to reflect on their practices and the role they play in promoting inclusion and safety.
Takeaways:
- Coaching in diverse settings requires awareness of group dynamics.
- Acknowledging differences can create a more inclusive coaching environment.
- Personal experiences shape coaching practices and philosophies.
- Race and identity significantly impact coaching relationships.
- Discomfort can be a powerful tool for growth in coaching.
- Vulnerability is essential for building trust in coaching.
- Self-reflection is crucial for understanding one's biases.
- Coaches must challenge assumptions about safety in coaching spaces.
- Inclusion in coaching is a shared responsibility among all coaches.
- The role of coaching extends beyond individual development to societal impact.
Keywords:
coaching, inclusion, diversity, vulnerability, discomfort, self-reflection, race, identity, group dynamics, personal growth
Sound Bites:
- "How can we traverse our differences?"
- "I see you in the way you want to be seen."
- "We don't grow in comfort."
- "Discomfort is our friend."
- "What is the role of coaching in this moment?"
- "The violence of coaching."
- "This is a safe space."
- "Let's carry the conversation on."
Contact through Linked In:
Here is Fenella’s paper: Disrupting my whiteness towards inhabiting a race equity coaching perspective: A self-inquiry into race, whiteness, and its impact on my coaching practice
Contact Claire by emailing info@3dcoaching.com or checking out her 3D Coaching Supervision Community
If you like this episode, subscribe or follow The Coaching Inn on your podcast platform or our YouTube Channel to hear or see new episodes as they drop.
If you’d like to find out more about 3D Coaching, you can get all our new ideas and offers in our weekly email.
Coming Up:
- Elizabeth Uviebinené talks about the Storia journaling app
- Soon - Open Table with coaches who have come from the caring professions
Key Words
coaching, inclusion, diversity, vulnerability, discomfort, self-reflection, race, identity, group dynamics, personal growth
We lov
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:13):
Hello and welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn.
This week is an Open Table.
My name's Claire Pedrick, I'm your host.
And today I'm delighted to be in the good company of Naomi Ward and Fenella Trevillion.
Hello Naomi and Fenella.
Hi
Naomi, this was your brilliant idea.
(00:35):
Tell us about your brilliant idea.
Well, it arose from something that you shared, which was within group settings.
And I work a lot in group settings, mostly with groups.
And it was a statement and acknowledgement that you use at 3D Coaching to acknowledge thedifference in the room, maybe the land that the work is taking place on, ancestry, what's
(01:04):
come before and
different people and levels of oppression and power within that room.
And I remember you had noticed that in reading that there were a couple of people that youfelt needed to hear it, like something settled in the room.
And I was really curious about that.
And I just asked the question, what does that look like in a one-to-one space?
(01:32):
Like how might that acknowledgement that
of all those dynamics, all of those systems that are in play, that are in the space, beuseful?
How would we offer that?
So I'm really here to learn from this conversation about what that might be.
(01:55):
And as you say that, of course I remember the moment that happened in the group when Isaid that and somebody suddenly changed their whole posture and view because my sense was
that they felt seen.
in an online group.
They were new to the group.
They were not white.
(02:17):
They were not from the UK.
It was really interesting.
And I have been testing myself against the conversation that you and I had after thatsince in one-to-ones with some quite interesting results.
So thank you for coming and just tell us a little bit about yourself and how you do yourwork and then we'll meet Fenella.
(02:39):
Yes.
So I work for a company called MSB and we, and I design learning programs mainly to, it'sa coach education for international schools, which have very diverse, teams and people.
(03:00):
However, the leadership of these schools is quite hegemonic in identity, which is a reallyinteresting space.
And so I'm really interested in these dynamics and interested in not only my one-to-onecoaching space, but how coach education is part of how we learn to be in one-to-one
(03:25):
spaces.
So always looking to disrupt myself and learn and unlearn and...
Yeah, try and make coaching a place where everyone can bring more of their humanity intothe conversation in what might be a safer space.
(03:49):
Yeah.
Thank you and Fenella, welcome.
Thank you.
Thank you.
It's very nice to be here.
It's lovely to have you here.
So tell us a bit about your journey and what you do.
So my coaching journey is, I think started with the listening and sometimes not talking, Ithink.
(04:22):
probably the main place I learned about that was when I was a nurse.
So ages ago, I remember
being kind of slightly criticised for wanting to talk to the patients and not getting onwith everything else I was supposed to be doing, all the other practical things, and I
thought maybe this is a bit more my space.
(04:45):
Then I went into social work, I enjoyed that hugely and I think one of the things thatdrew me was that sort of intensity of that one-to-one space and kind of just being with
the person and understanding what that's about.
Anyway,
Many years after that, I became a manager and a leader and always enjoyed hearing from thefront line about everything, both from staff and from the users of the service.
(05:17):
And then I had an opportunity, eventually, after a great big reorganisation in the I thinkit was the last one, to leave, which was a great joy because I realised the one thing I
wanted was back to that
that one-to-one space and work with people directly.
So I felt as though there was about 20 people between me and the front line.
(05:45):
The idea of getting back to that relationship was a real joy.
So I then did a masters in coaching and behavioural change and then started to workdirectly with people and started my own business.
The rest of the story is here right now.
Yeah, absolutely.
How fascinating.
(06:05):
And you've written a paper about inclusion and coaching, which I've really enjoyedreading.
Good.
Good, good.
thank you.
I'll pop a link.
I'm sure we'll talk about it and I'll pop a link in the show notes so that people can readit for themselves.
Can I open up by telling a story that was told to me the other day by somebody who saidthat somebody had come to them for coaching and they said, I'm looking for a
(06:36):
neurodivergent coach.
And he said, well, that's not me.
you
So let's see how we get on and at the end of the conversation if it appears that it's notme then we can, you know, I can help you find somebody.
And of course during the course of the conversation it emerged that it was him.
(06:57):
But I thought that was such a beautiful story of naming what is.
And it reminded me of the times when I've named what is because I have been given theopportunity to by the other person.
And how, when the other person gives us the opportunity, we've actually got a really, youknow, it's not that difficult to open up this difference thing.
(07:20):
But then there's a question about how do we open it up ourselves when the other personhasn't started?
You know, the who leads first question.
So I'm really curious, you you said, Naomi, that your places are quite hegemonic.
What do you notice and what do you offer?
(07:45):
So, yeah, the spaces that I coach in tend to be white Western leaders.
And it's something I want to learn about and be more...
(08:08):
I mean, it's such, it's such a good question and you can tell that I don't have an answerbecause you know, we learned that coaching is about the contract and it's about the
agreement and it's about the work you've agreed to do.
And, you know, I also know that we're all different, you know, no matter what.
(08:29):
So whatever the visible differences, a way that I try to invite that is first of all,
offering something of myself, you know, that first move to say, so I might say, I've sortof started to use language, like I'm racialized as white, so I'm aware of my whiteness and
(08:51):
how that might contribute to my worldview.
I might say I'm a mother, I might say, you know, I only speak one language, you know, allthese things that
are going to influence how we work.
might say, quite an introvert.
reflect, I need time to reflect.
So all of these offers we make ourselves maybe would open up a channel of connection thatmakes the other person, even if it's not in that moment later on in the coaching
(09:21):
relationship to open up more if they choose.
Yeah, and you talked about visible differences and of course there are also invisibledifferences aren't there?
I'm curious to find out, Fenella, you've been on quite the journey.
Yes I have, Which bit are you interested in?
(09:43):
I'm really interested in the journey, if you're willing to share that, and how that'schanged your practice.
Yes, yes it has significantly.
And of course with any journey, particularly a life journey, it's not a linear one andoften when we look back we suddenly saw we were journeying way back when.
(10:09):
So I come from South Africa and I grew up in apartheid South Africa which is significant,it's a different place from South Africa now.
And in a funny sort of way, as I reflect, it was very much a bit like the film in the zoneof interest.
(10:30):
In lots of ways that was my childhood.
Although there were some really big differences.
I was lucky enough to have parents and grandparents who were quite supportive and openedout lots of questions and also challenged.
in certainly verbally in their minds and some of their behaviour, the system that withinwhich we were and the context.
(10:58):
I also have some incredibly sort of strong autobiographic memories of seeing some prettyawful episodes of islands against black people.
And I remember thinking I'm really
hating this, this is not right.
(11:18):
And even some very subtle things that happened.
And I remember the discomfort, so the discomfort when I was nine years old and walked intoa kind of corner shop and there must have been 20 black people in there.
And quite suddenly the space was opened up for me to be seen and served directly.
(11:39):
And you know, when you're nine and you can see all these adults and I just rememberthinking this is
can't be right, this is awful and that's a minor example but there were lots of thoselittle examples and certainly as I grew up and traveled I remember thinking I never want
to return to South Africa so I emigrated to this country.
(12:04):
So those were significant things.
The big issue particularly for me was racism.
I guess that's a significant one and we often have a significant one.
So, and particularly when people have had a kind of touching experience.
But as I said, that was a big issue for me, but it came and it went.
(12:27):
And I realized one of the main reasons is, you know, talking about race is an incrediblyawkward thing.
don't, particularly white people, white people don't like talking about it.
And of course, people who are racialized as black are
quite comfortable with it, isn't it?
(12:47):
Because they live in that world, they've grown up in it, their families often talked aboutit, or sometimes they haven't, but it's something they've lived with all their lives.
And us as white people tend not to like it at all.
And it was the issue often around policies, I'd raise issues about, we putting this in,are we adding that?
(13:13):
And I guess there was sort of that feeling of feeling exhausted by the tension that Icreated.
And so I'd come and go with it.
And then I went to my coach when I did my masters.
In a mad sort of way, I think I realized there was a slight relief because of course, wedidn't talk about anything like that.
(13:36):
There was nothing negative at all.
Everybody was the same and we all embraced everybody.
in exactly the same way.
Nobody was different.
And that's how we were to see our co-cheats.
And I remember thinking, this is bizarre.
Is this a new language?
Is this a new way of being I'm supposed to be in?
And it did feel incredibly uncomfortable again, although, you you collude, don't you?
(14:03):
If something's comfortable, you collude with it.
And I think I did.
then,
went out in the world and started working.
Predominantly, I work with doctors in training.
So that's probably been my biggest source of referrals.
And often thought, you know, that came across such many of the people I worked with werepeople who would identify as brown or people who were identified as black, but mostly
(14:33):
people who identified themselves or were identified as brown.
And so the whole issue bobbed in and out for me and I was always quite concerned aboutwhere was I in the midst of all this and thinking this can't be right not to notice, not
to raise it.
And then, as we know, George Floyd was murdered and like for very many people, that was anabsolutely pivotal point.
(14:59):
And I suddenly thought, I can't really play this game anymore.
It's a farce pretending everybody was the same.
And one of the things that's always been quite big for me has been about politics andunderstanding the world from political way and about power.
I started to, from that moment on, everything changed.
(15:24):
And I don't know what other bits you're interested in, but it's been, it's played a verysignificant part for me since then and has informed my coaching very considerably,
actually.
As I said, many of the people that I work with are people who would identify as browns,particularly.
(15:45):
I have worked with a few people who identify as black, but it's mostly in the NHS,predominantly people from the Asian subcontinent, but also East Asia too.
So what sounds and looks different now in your coaching, Fenella?
(16:13):
Well, I think this, we call it an issue of difference, which I I experienced all the wordsin this domain, as we know, are clunky, uncomfortable, and it doesn't, you know, different
from what, and of course it's different from being white, isn't it?
And of course, you know, that immediately puts us in an uncomfortable domain, in thedomain of whiteness.
(16:41):
But what is different?
is that I, the first thing is I'm interested in inevitably the referral, the person'sissue, what's going on for them.
I usually look at their name and see if that tells me anything.
I look and see how they've identified.
Often they haven't, but they are asked to identify their race and ethnicity.
(17:04):
So I might do a bit of homework before I even have any contact with them.
Well, not might, definitely do homework.
before have contact with the person.
So that's very different.
Just that.
And like for anybody, it's about who's going to be appearing in the room.
How can I just at least think about where they're coming from?
(17:30):
And then of course, like most coaches have that initial session, the so-called chemistrysession.
Usually the discussion is just like any other discussion when you meet somebody, how areyou, where are you, all those kind of making people comfortable feelings and giving them
(17:55):
an opportunity to talk about those sorts of ordinary things, the settling stuff.
One of the very first things I do is then talk about the psychological contract.
And with that,
I bring in the issue of, let's talk about us as two different people.
(18:19):
And as you'll notice, I'm a person who's likely to be, well, as you can see from us, I'minevitably much older than you are.
And so let's just notice that.
I'm noticing other possible differences.
And I...
(18:39):
invariably stop myself, I say I'm racialized as white and I'm just wondering how you seethat and I'm wondering about how we can traverse our differences.
And usually if there is an opportunity make it quite clear that the differences are to becelebrated and enjoyed and how can we use that in the work that we're doing.
(19:10):
I'm very interested often at people's reaction and I've had hugely positive responses toit actually.
One of the other things I do do is give people my website.
So the place where I get my referrals from don't usually, many of the people there don'thave their own websites.
(19:33):
We are all employed by the NHS.
But I say, look, this is my own website.
We want to look at something.
Look at me, find out a bit more about me do.
And quite often they have and quite often they say, gosh, I was really pleased to see,know, see you and what what your values are and how you work.
So I feel excited about this.
(19:55):
So it's quite often quite a positive place that it starts from.
I love what a demonstration that is, Fenella, of Timothy Clark's first mover obligation tobe vulnerable.
Because you said, I start with me, I say I'm racialized as white, which is starting with,yeah, starting with the difference that is you, rather than the difference that is the
(20:22):
other.
beautiful.
Naomi, I could see you processing there.
rather just listen to Fenella to be honest.
But, but, I think as she was talking, I was just recognizing again, the importance ofbeing clear enough on our own stance and philosophy and the evolution of that.
(20:50):
Certainly when I trained eight or nine years ago, you know, the training is, we've gotthose sacred cows, haven't we, of coaching that.
are kind of non-negotiable in this space.
You talk about collusion and I certainly inhaled all of it.
(21:10):
And then I really encourage people to read Fanella's paper because there are these momentsof pivot that I recognized as I read it, which was like, things changed here, things
changed here, things changed here.
So in our maturity as coaches, or not necessarily at the beginning of your coaching,
(21:30):
coach education, because we're all human for a long time before we're You know, what ischanging for me?
Who am I now?
What is my philosophy?
What is my purpose?
Therefore, what is my practice?
And how can I communicate that, which is an ethical responsibility for us as coaches to beclear in who we are and what we offer.
(21:56):
And then hopefully, you know, as Fenella said, people will
come and feel safe enough that this is a space that might be an alternative to otherlearning, personal development spaces that feel exclusive.
(22:18):
So I think doing that work on who we are, what we stand for in the world and it ispolitical, is important work to do.
And we are all different.
There is always going to be difference between us and the people that we're working with.
(22:43):
I worked with somebody recently and I asked them, they'd worked with someone before and Isaid, tell me about the person you worked with before.
And they said, they were not white.
They were not female and they were not British.
(23:04):
They described it in a different way, but I'm keeping it safe here.
And I'm sitting there as a white British woman thinking, heck.
But actually the only thing to do is to respond to that, right?
So I just went and I'm a white British woman.
And the person said to me, that's all I needed to hear.
(23:28):
that I was willing to outwardly express that we were different and the work is goingreally brilliantly because it is, we are different and I'm different from anyone they've
worked with before and therefore that needs to be acknowledged, right?
Because otherwise we're pretending we're the same and we're not.
(23:54):
I've been writing this morning about difference in the neurodivergent.
neurotypical or whatever you wish to call it space.
And again, it's
Difference is different and it's the same and it's different.
Hmm.
(24:14):
Yeah, I was, and I think there's this sense that we are unknowable at the end of the day.
I was, this is really staying with me.
This, teacher was asked what her pedagogical aspirations were as a teacher.
And she said, what if we joined our wildernesses together?
(24:39):
So this idea that
our body, our life, our history might be a wilderness unexplored territory, but that yoursand mine might meet in this space.
And maybe the work we do in coaching is to include more and more of that in our awarenessas an individual and as a partnership.
(25:06):
And, and this kind of goes to, and
me if I'm going off on a tangent here, but these sacred cows that we have to get from A toB in coaching, there has to be an action.
I'm not so sure.
What if it is just this exploration of wilderness, lifting up rocks, having a look, youknow, and deciding what we want to include.
(25:39):
And you you say something Claire, which I carry with me, which is people are longing to beperceived, not transformed.
And with that comes spontaneous movement, I've always found.
But this idea of not having to know ourselves or each other, that we might be awilderness, I find quite appealing or quite beguiling as a way to approach the coaching
(26:05):
relationship.
I don't know.
that makes sense.
There's something isn't there about everyone feeling seen and heard and felt.
And what there's that South African phrase is it you you know this is it so boner the Zuluphrase vanilla I see you.
(26:30):
So a borner, yeah.
So a borner, usually.
Yeah.
But one of the things that's playing around in my mind is something about I see you in theway you want to be seen.
I mean, I think that's a very crucial thing because with the seeing comes a number oflayers and often that brings in the whole issue of the relationship and the power within
(27:03):
that relationship and also about
enabling somebody's agency too.
So through the seeing and kind of the things that are important to them coming forward tooand giving them their agency in that space.
(27:24):
Yeah.
There's agency.
There's also, I think, the, the, our work, isn't there?
What's the work we need to do?
Starting from what's the work that I need to do in order to be able to toleratedifference?
What's the work I need to do about who am I?
(27:47):
Where do I fit in the world?
All of those really important things.
And that takes a level of vulnerability, doesn't it?
I've heard a lovely phrase that I'm carrying around at the moment, another one calledloving corrections, which is Adrienne Marie Brown, her most recent book.
(28:12):
And it's how we lovingly correct ourselves in order to be in right relationship with eachother and the planet, and the natural world.
So that work perhaps can feel very daunting, but what if we framed it as a lovingcorrection and what if we offered it to each other in that way?
(28:39):
And I think that's about inhabiting spaces where we are uncomfortable.
The three of us do represent that the majority of coaches in our...
And so what are the spaces we're putting ourselves in where we will receive lovingcorrection and discomfort versus comfort?
(29:07):
So it's, it's, it's not something you can do in isolation.
I don't think something you have to do relationally.
That's I think.
Or maybe it's both.
I'm curious, Vanellope, because you've been on...
I think, no, I agree with you, it is relational.
(29:30):
And there is something about the listening to oneself and that, you know, what was thatthat I heard myself say?
what was that that I heard I felt myself feeling?
And these are not pretty thoughts often.
(29:55):
And that's part of it, which is
is the, well not part of it, it's actually key is exploring one's discomfort and givingoneself opportunity to hear it, allow it, because we can't move on until we know what's
being said, what's being said internally and interrogating that.
(30:18):
And for me that, so the paper that I wrote really came out of a long time ofinterrogating.
many things and thinking what went on just then?
What did I hear myself say?
And acknowledging that and working with it, think for me that's been so important.
(30:41):
And the discomfort has been probably my most powerful tool really, and being vulnerablewithout discomfort.
and exercising the discomfort, I think.
I was in a conversation with my supervisor the other day and we were talking aboutcoaching when there's a, it becomes apparent that there's poor mental health.
(31:07):
And one of the things that we were recognising was that that's a very uncomfortable placeto be if you're not used to being uncomfortable.
And actually we need to get used to being uncomfortable so that when uncomfortable thingshappen, we can hold it and not freak.
And just how useful that is as a part of us developing as humans.
(31:33):
So where are we when we're in the minority?
Where do we go to be in the minority and how do we learn to be in those, whatever thatlooks like, to be in that kind of context to understand?
a little bit of what it feels like for us.
(31:55):
Yeah, and just thinking about coach education as well.
just finished a long program today with a group of teachers and
On the whole, the greatest learning is that I'm more comfortable with the uncomfortable.
we're delighted to hear they're not saying I can ask a good question.
(32:18):
It's, it's just like, I am a bit more comfortable with being uncomfortable.
And I think, I think that is something that coaching can really serve in us and expand inus both in our practice as coaches and what we offer the people.
people we were because we don't grow in comfort, do we?
(32:39):
And I think that's so interesting from Fenella and sitting with that of when we do feelthat embodied experience, usually there's data there and it's slowing down enough to go,
interesting.
What's the data here?
What's going on?
(33:00):
how can I, something that I found very useful is just making that object.
you know, like not thinking that is me, that's just a part of me that's freaking out inthis moment.
So what's going on?
How can I speak to it?
How can I settle it?
How can I get in dialogue with it?
So that I'm then in touch with more of my humanity rather than just going, Oh, no, bequiet.
(33:23):
That's, I'm ashamed of that part of me.
Loving correction, right?
I can look at that part of me and go, you know, no, let's, let's.
I was very interested recently in the supervision session.
(33:47):
One of the things that's been taking up quite a lot of my thinking is about supervisionand how we can use that as well and how we can bring criticality into supervision.
And each person as they introduced themselves was talking about how they'd felt thevarious sessions they'd had with people.
(34:12):
were uncomfortable and they wanted to kind of correct that.
What were they doing wrong?
And I guess it's back to the same theme is that I encourage them to to be comfortable withtheir discomfort, their discomfort.
Discomfort is our friend, as you rightly said, it gives us data.
(34:35):
So I was quite pleased at the very end that it was a consistent agreement that that's
one of their biggest bits of learning.
And thing that I was left feeling curious about is surely that's got to be one of themajor numps of coaching.
How is it that coaches are being produced to think that unless it feels really comfortableand friendly and full of compassion and joy, then it's wrong or it's not good coaching.
(35:09):
So anyway.
Hold that question there.
Yes, and isn't it funny because the assumption that if I feel comfortable, they feelcomfortable, which of course is so not true.
I'm sitting, Fenella, with what you said about the nine-year-old you.
You
(35:29):
And all those teachers around you, all those lovely people who opened up the space for youto go in, all of whom individually have been part of your journey of learning about this.
And it's often, it, in those uncomfortable places where we do do our best learning, eventhough it's really hard.
(35:50):
And for a nine-year-old you, you know, that's a difficult lesson to learn.
And I wonder what we can do to harness our teachers who might be in the present, who mightbe in the past.
(36:11):
I can remember when I was a teacher in Kenya.
and given enormous amount of white privilege, even though I was in the minority by someconsiderable distance, you know, two white people in 2000 kilometres or something, I mean,
a lot of space.
(36:37):
It was the person who didn't give me privilege from whom I learnt the most.
And I was so delighted to meet this gentleman.
He'd been a Maomao fighter in the Kenyan, in the war of independence in the 1960s andhadn't seen a white person since.
(36:57):
And he was related to one of my students who said, let's go and meet, go and see him.
And it was completely formative because I needed to be, it was important for me to be.
not elevated.
And however much I tried to not have privilege, I did.
(37:19):
You can't not have it, can you?
If you've got it, you can't un-have it.
So such an interesting experience.
And the people in your shop, Naomi, you'll have the people, we'll all have, everyonelistening will have all kinds of people who we can remember as being teachers for us.
(37:43):
And how do we respect and honour that?
think it's a really interesting question.
So I'm going to put your paper in the show notes, Fenella.
What's...
And name me your contact details as well, and both of your contact details so people cancontinue the conversation if they wish to.
(38:09):
What's your challenge to our listeners as we finish today?
Gosh.
Well, I keep coming back to this idea of tracking your evolution and your moments ofinsight lifelong.
(38:36):
Can you express that in a way that feels authentic and courageous?
in the here and now.
and, and I think, you know, this podcast was, you know, about inclusion and difference.
And we live in a time when people are being told they don't have the right to exist.
(39:05):
which is, deeply painful agonizing for so many, so many people.
on the planet.
kind of what is, what is your role and what is coaching's role in this moment?
(39:25):
when there's this ferocious sense of exclusion.
And I just briefly.
share a story.
Last week, I was doing a workshop on belonging with some head teachers and we played agame where the first round you moved around and you gave each other belonging cues.
So hello, how are you?
(39:46):
Gentle touch, eye contact.
And then the next round, everyone moved around, they made eye contact and then they brokeit.
Just looked away.
And after about 40 seconds, people went, stop, stop, I can't stand it, I can't stand it.
So that to me illustrated like a fractal of what it is to be excluded.
(40:07):
So, yeah, maybe those are two separate things, but you know, that the pain of exclusion wefeel in those small moments, imagine what that's like for people facing these real threats
to their lives.
So yeah, I guess, I guess to reflect on what's the, what's the role of coaching in thismoment.
(40:33):
vanilla.
Yes, I'd like to pick up on that.
Because one of the things I quite often hear, particularly from Black colleagues, is theviolence of coaching.
In fact, kind of how their experience has been about actually coaching is not a safespace.
(41:04):
The other thing I think is particularly those of us who identify as white, you know, webring out our whiteness wherever we are.
And for some reason, and one of the things I do celebrate today is that all three of usare people who are white people in this space talking about diversity.
(41:25):
Because so often we expect that actually where's the black person who can tell us aboutthis?
Where's the black person who can tell us how to do this?
And actually, as we know, and I know I've made quite a thing about that in my paper, butit's a very abiding thing that I hear again and again is how so often people of color are
(41:50):
so fed up with having to tell their story.
And what work are we as white people doing to kind of...
work with everybody because that's the other thing.
is a difference, it's a universal issue.
It's not, I'm going to be working with this person today who's neurodiverse or I'm goingto be working with somebody else who has mental health problems and it's something about,
(42:18):
must flick the switch on or that switch on and actually this is everybody and how can webe authentic with that.
And how can we bring our integrity and enable them to bring their authenticity andintegrity into the space?
(42:39):
Thank you.
with us in the journey really.
because they're not different, we're all different.
And yeah, we're doing another podcast soon about safety and courage.
Because one of the things that bothers me is when coaches say this is a safe space.
(43:00):
And I want to go, you can't say that.
none of us have the right to tell anyone that this is a safe space.
Because it's not our decision.
But that's for another day.
it's not our experience how we don't know that person's level of vulnerability and andlack of sense of lack of safety.
(43:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, Fenella Trevillion and Naomi Ward, thank you so much for coming to The Coaching Inntoday and thank you everyone for listening.
Let's carry the conversation on.
Do send in what you're thinking and let's grow this because it matters.
(43:46):
So have a good day and we'll be back next week with another episode.
Bye bye.
Hello and welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn.
This week is an Open Table.
My name's Claire Pedrick, I'm your host.
And today I'm delighted to be in the good company of Naomi Ward and Fenella Trevillion.
Hello Naomi and Fenella.
Hi
Naomi, this was your brilliant idea.
(00:35):
Tell us about your brilliant idea.
Well, it arose from something that you shared, which was within group settings.
And I work a lot in group settings, mostly with groups.
And it was a statement and acknowledgement that you use at 3D Coaching to acknowledge thedifference in the room, maybe the land that the work is taking place on, ancestry, what's
(01:04):
come before and
different people and levels of oppression and power within that room.
And I remember you had noticed that in reading that there were a couple of people that youfelt needed to hear it, like something settled in the room.
And I was really curious about that.
And I just asked the question, what does that look like in a one-to-one space?
(01:32):
Like how might that acknowledgement that
of all those dynamics, all of those systems that are in play, that are in the space, beuseful?
How would we offer that?
So I'm really here to learn from this conversation about what that might be.
(01:55):
And as you say that, of course I remember the moment that happened in the group when Isaid that and somebody suddenly changed their whole posture and view because my sense was
that they felt seen.
in an online group.
They were new to the group.
They were not white.
(02:17):
They were not from the UK.
It was really interesting.
And I have been testing myself against the conversation that you and I had after thatsince in one-to-ones with some quite interesting results.
So thank you for coming and just tell us a little bit about yourself and how you do yourwork and then we'll meet Fenella.
(02:39):
Yes.
So I work for a company called MSB and we, and I design learning programs mainly to, it'sa coach education for international schools, which have very diverse, teams and people.
(03:00):
However, the leadership of these schools is quite hegemonic in identity, which is a reallyinteresting space.
And so I'm really interested in these dynamics and interested in not only my one-to-onecoaching space, but how coach education is part of how we learn to be in one-to-one
(03:25):
spaces.
So always looking to disrupt myself and learn and unlearn and...
Yeah, try and make coaching a place where everyone can bring more of their humanity intothe conversation in what might be a safer space.
(03:49):
Yeah.
Thank you and Fenella, welcome.
Thank you.
Thank you.
It's very nice to be here.
It's lovely to have you here.
So tell us a bit about your journey and what you do.
So my coaching journey is, I think started with the listening and sometimes not talking, Ithink.
(04:22):
probably the main place I learned about that was when I was a nurse.
So ages ago, I remember
being kind of slightly criticised for wanting to talk to the patients and not getting onwith everything else I was supposed to be doing, all the other practical things, and I
thought maybe this is a bit more my space.
(04:45):
Then I went into social work, I enjoyed that hugely and I think one of the things thatdrew me was that sort of intensity of that one-to-one space and kind of just being with
the person and understanding what that's about.
Anyway,
Many years after that, I became a manager and a leader and always enjoyed hearing from thefront line about everything, both from staff and from the users of the service.
(05:17):
And then I had an opportunity, eventually, after a great big reorganisation in the I thinkit was the last one, to leave, which was a great joy because I realised the one thing I
wanted was back to that
that one-to-one space and work with people directly.
So I felt as though there was about 20 people between me and the front line.
(05:45):
The idea of getting back to that relationship was a real joy.
So I then did a masters in coaching and behavioural change and then started to workdirectly with people and started my own business.
The rest of the story is here right now.
Yeah, absolutely.
How fascinating.
(06:05):
And you've written a paper about inclusion and coaching, which I've really enjoyedreading.
Good.
Good, good.
thank you.
I'll pop a link.
I'm sure we'll talk about it and I'll pop a link in the show notes so that people can readit for themselves.
Can I open up by telling a story that was told to me the other day by somebody who saidthat somebody had come to them for coaching and they said, I'm looking for a
(06:36):
neurodivergent coach.
And he said, well, that's not me.
you
So let's see how we get on and at the end of the conversation if it appears that it's notme then we can, you know, I can help you find somebody.
And of course during the course of the conversation it emerged that it was him.
(06:57):
But I thought that was such a beautiful story of naming what is.
And it reminded me of the times when I've named what is because I have been given theopportunity to by the other person.
And how, when the other person gives us the opportunity, we've actually got a really, youknow, it's not that difficult to open up this difference thing.
(07:20):
But then there's a question about how do we open it up ourselves when the other personhasn't started?
You know, the who leads first question.
So I'm really curious, you you said, Naomi, that your places are quite hegemonic.
What do you notice and what do you offer?
(07:45):
So, yeah, the spaces that I coach in tend to be white Western leaders.
And it's something I want to learn about and be more...
(08:08):
I mean, it's such, it's such a good question and you can tell that I don't have an answerbecause you know, we learned that coaching is about the contract and it's about the
agreement and it's about the work you've agreed to do.
And, you know, I also know that we're all different, you know, no matter what.
(08:29):
So whatever the visible differences, a way that I try to invite that is first of all,
offering something of myself, you know, that first move to say, so I might say, I've sortof started to use language, like I'm racialized as white, so I'm aware of my whiteness and
(08:51):
how that might contribute to my worldview.
I might say I'm a mother, I might say, you know, I only speak one language, you know, allthese things that
are going to influence how we work.
might say, quite an introvert.
reflect, I need time to reflect.
So all of these offers we make ourselves maybe would open up a channel of connection thatmakes the other person, even if it's not in that moment later on in the coaching
(09:21):
relationship to open up more if they choose.
Yeah, and you talked about visible differences and of course there are also invisibledifferences aren't there?
I'm curious to find out, Fenella, you've been on quite the journey.
Yes I have, Which bit are you interested in?
(09:43):
I'm really interested in the journey, if you're willing to share that, and how that'schanged your practice.
Yes, yes it has significantly.
And of course with any journey, particularly a life journey, it's not a linear one andoften when we look back we suddenly saw we were journeying way back when.
(10:09):
So I come from South Africa and I grew up in apartheid South Africa which is significant,it's a different place from South Africa now.
And in a funny sort of way, as I reflect, it was very much a bit like the film in the zoneof interest.
(10:30):
In lots of ways that was my childhood.
Although there were some really big differences.
I was lucky enough to have parents and grandparents who were quite supportive and openedout lots of questions and also challenged.
in certainly verbally in their minds and some of their behaviour, the system that withinwhich we were and the context.
(10:58):
I also have some incredibly sort of strong autobiographic memories of seeing some prettyawful episodes of islands against black people.
And I remember thinking I'm really
hating this, this is not right.
(11:18):
And even some very subtle things that happened.
And I remember the discomfort, so the discomfort when I was nine years old and walked intoa kind of corner shop and there must have been 20 black people in there.
And quite suddenly the space was opened up for me to be seen and served directly.
(11:39):
And you know, when you're nine and you can see all these adults and I just rememberthinking this is
can't be right, this is awful and that's a minor example but there were lots of thoselittle examples and certainly as I grew up and traveled I remember thinking I never want
to return to South Africa so I emigrated to this country.
(12:04):
So those were significant things.
The big issue particularly for me was racism.
I guess that's a significant one and we often have a significant one.
So, and particularly when people have had a kind of touching experience.
But as I said, that was a big issue for me, but it came and it went.
(12:27):
And I realized one of the main reasons is, you know, talking about race is an incrediblyawkward thing.
don't, particularly white people, white people don't like talking about it.
And of course, people who are racialized as black are
quite comfortable with it, isn't it?
(12:47):
Because they live in that world, they've grown up in it, their families often talked aboutit, or sometimes they haven't, but it's something they've lived with all their lives.
And us as white people tend not to like it at all.
And it was the issue often around policies, I'd raise issues about, we putting this in,are we adding that?
(13:13):
And I guess there was sort of that feeling of feeling exhausted by the tension that Icreated.
And so I'd come and go with it.
And then I went to my coach when I did my masters.
In a mad sort of way, I think I realized there was a slight relief because of course, wedidn't talk about anything like that.
(13:36):
There was nothing negative at all.
Everybody was the same and we all embraced everybody.
in exactly the same way.
Nobody was different.
And that's how we were to see our co-cheats.
And I remember thinking, this is bizarre.
Is this a new language?
Is this a new way of being I'm supposed to be in?
And it did feel incredibly uncomfortable again, although, you you collude, don't you?
(14:03):
If something's comfortable, you collude with it.
And I think I did.
then,
went out in the world and started working.
Predominantly, I work with doctors in training.
So that's probably been my biggest source of referrals.
And often thought, you know, that came across such many of the people I worked with werepeople who would identify as brown or people who were identified as black, but mostly
(14:33):
people who identified themselves or were identified as brown.
And so the whole issue bobbed in and out for me and I was always quite concerned aboutwhere was I in the midst of all this and thinking this can't be right not to notice, not
to raise it.
And then, as we know, George Floyd was murdered and like for very many people, that was anabsolutely pivotal point.
(14:59):
And I suddenly thought, I can't really play this game anymore.
It's a farce pretending everybody was the same.
And one of the things that's always been quite big for me has been about politics andunderstanding the world from political way and about power.
I started to, from that moment on, everything changed.
(15:24):
And I don't know what other bits you're interested in, but it's been, it's played a verysignificant part for me since then and has informed my coaching very considerably,
actually.
As I said, many of the people that I work with are people who would identify as browns,particularly.
(15:45):
I have worked with a few people who identify as black, but it's mostly in the NHS,predominantly people from the Asian subcontinent, but also East Asia too.
So what sounds and looks different now in your coaching, Fenella?
(16:13):
Well, I think this, we call it an issue of difference, which I I experienced all the wordsin this domain, as we know, are clunky, uncomfortable, and it doesn't, you know, different
from what, and of course it's different from being white, isn't it?
And of course, you know, that immediately puts us in an uncomfortable domain, in thedomain of whiteness.
(16:41):
But what is different?
is that I, the first thing is I'm interested in inevitably the referral, the person'sissue, what's going on for them.
I usually look at their name and see if that tells me anything.
I look and see how they've identified.
Often they haven't, but they are asked to identify their race and ethnicity.
(17:04):
So I might do a bit of homework before I even have any contact with them.
Well, not might, definitely do homework.
before have contact with the person.
So that's very different.
Just that.
And like for anybody, it's about who's going to be appearing in the room.
How can I just at least think about where they're coming from?
(17:30):
And then of course, like most coaches have that initial session, the so-called chemistrysession.
Usually the discussion is just like any other discussion when you meet somebody, how areyou, where are you, all those kind of making people comfortable feelings and giving them
(17:55):
an opportunity to talk about those sorts of ordinary things, the settling stuff.
One of the very first things I do is then talk about the psychological contract.
And with that,
I bring in the issue of, let's talk about us as two different people.
(18:19):
And as you'll notice, I'm a person who's likely to be, well, as you can see from us, I'minevitably much older than you are.
And so let's just notice that.
I'm noticing other possible differences.
And I...
(18:39):
invariably stop myself, I say I'm racialized as white and I'm just wondering how you seethat and I'm wondering about how we can traverse our differences.
And usually if there is an opportunity make it quite clear that the differences are to becelebrated and enjoyed and how can we use that in the work that we're doing.
(19:10):
I'm very interested often at people's reaction and I've had hugely positive responses toit actually.
One of the other things I do do is give people my website.
So the place where I get my referrals from don't usually, many of the people there don'thave their own websites.
(19:33):
We are all employed by the NHS.
But I say, look, this is my own website.
We want to look at something.
Look at me, find out a bit more about me do.
And quite often they have and quite often they say, gosh, I was really pleased to see,know, see you and what what your values are and how you work.
So I feel excited about this.
(19:55):
So it's quite often quite a positive place that it starts from.
I love what a demonstration that is, Fenella, of Timothy Clark's first mover obligation tobe vulnerable.
Because you said, I start with me, I say I'm racialized as white, which is starting with,yeah, starting with the difference that is you, rather than the difference that is the
(20:22):
other.
beautiful.
Naomi, I could see you processing there.
rather just listen to Fenella to be honest.
But, but, I think as she was talking, I was just recognizing again, the importance ofbeing clear enough on our own stance and philosophy and the evolution of that.
(20:50):
Certainly when I trained eight or nine years ago, you know, the training is, we've gotthose sacred cows, haven't we, of coaching that.
are kind of non-negotiable in this space.
You talk about collusion and I certainly inhaled all of it.
(21:10):
And then I really encourage people to read Fanella's paper because there are these momentsof pivot that I recognized as I read it, which was like, things changed here, things
changed here, things changed here.
So in our maturity as coaches, or not necessarily at the beginning of your coaching,
(21:30):
coach education, because we're all human for a long time before we're You know, what ischanging for me?
Who am I now?
What is my philosophy?
What is my purpose?
Therefore, what is my practice?
And how can I communicate that, which is an ethical responsibility for us as coaches to beclear in who we are and what we offer.
(21:56):
And then hopefully, you know, as Fenella said, people will
come and feel safe enough that this is a space that might be an alternative to otherlearning, personal development spaces that feel exclusive.
(22:18):
So I think doing that work on who we are, what we stand for in the world and it ispolitical, is important work to do.
And we are all different.
There is always going to be difference between us and the people that we're working with.
(22:43):
I worked with somebody recently and I asked them, they'd worked with someone before and Isaid, tell me about the person you worked with before.
And they said, they were not white.
They were not female and they were not British.
(23:04):
They described it in a different way, but I'm keeping it safe here.
And I'm sitting there as a white British woman thinking, heck.
But actually the only thing to do is to respond to that, right?
So I just went and I'm a white British woman.
And the person said to me, that's all I needed to hear.
(23:28):
that I was willing to outwardly express that we were different and the work is goingreally brilliantly because it is, we are different and I'm different from anyone they've
worked with before and therefore that needs to be acknowledged, right?
Because otherwise we're pretending we're the same and we're not.
(23:54):
I've been writing this morning about difference in the neurodivergent.
neurotypical or whatever you wish to call it space.
And again, it's
Difference is different and it's the same and it's different.
Hmm.
(24:14):
Yeah, I was, and I think there's this sense that we are unknowable at the end of the day.
I was, this is really staying with me.
This, teacher was asked what her pedagogical aspirations were as a teacher.
And she said, what if we joined our wildernesses together?
(24:39):
So this idea that
our body, our life, our history might be a wilderness unexplored territory, but that yoursand mine might meet in this space.
And maybe the work we do in coaching is to include more and more of that in our awarenessas an individual and as a partnership.
(25:06):
And, and this kind of goes to, and
me if I'm going off on a tangent here, but these sacred cows that we have to get from A toB in coaching, there has to be an action.
I'm not so sure.
What if it is just this exploration of wilderness, lifting up rocks, having a look, youknow, and deciding what we want to include.
(25:39):
And you you say something Claire, which I carry with me, which is people are longing to beperceived, not transformed.
And with that comes spontaneous movement, I've always found.
But this idea of not having to know ourselves or each other, that we might be awilderness, I find quite appealing or quite beguiling as a way to approach the coaching
(26:05):
relationship.
I don't know.
that makes sense.
There's something isn't there about everyone feeling seen and heard and felt.
And what there's that South African phrase is it you you know this is it so boner the Zuluphrase vanilla I see you.
(26:30):
So a borner, yeah.
So a borner, usually.
Yeah.
But one of the things that's playing around in my mind is something about I see you in theway you want to be seen.
I mean, I think that's a very crucial thing because with the seeing comes a number oflayers and often that brings in the whole issue of the relationship and the power within
(27:03):
that relationship and also about
enabling somebody's agency too.
So through the seeing and kind of the things that are important to them coming forward tooand giving them their agency in that space.
(27:24):
Yeah.
There's agency.
There's also, I think, the, the, our work, isn't there?
What's the work we need to do?
Starting from what's the work that I need to do in order to be able to toleratedifference?
What's the work I need to do about who am I?
(27:47):
Where do I fit in the world?
All of those really important things.
And that takes a level of vulnerability, doesn't it?
I've heard a lovely phrase that I'm carrying around at the moment, another one calledloving corrections, which is Adrienne Marie Brown, her most recent book.
(28:12):
And it's how we lovingly correct ourselves in order to be in right relationship with eachother and the planet, and the natural world.
So that work perhaps can feel very daunting, but what if we framed it as a lovingcorrection and what if we offered it to each other in that way?
(28:39):
And I think that's about inhabiting spaces where we are uncomfortable.
The three of us do represent that the majority of coaches in our...
And so what are the spaces we're putting ourselves in where we will receive lovingcorrection and discomfort versus comfort?
(29:07):
So it's, it's, it's not something you can do in isolation.
I don't think something you have to do relationally.
That's I think.
Or maybe it's both.
I'm curious, Vanellope, because you've been on...
I think, no, I agree with you, it is relational.
(29:30):
And there is something about the listening to oneself and that, you know, what was thatthat I heard myself say?
what was that that I heard I felt myself feeling?
And these are not pretty thoughts often.
(29:55):
And that's part of it, which is
is the, well not part of it, it's actually key is exploring one's discomfort and givingoneself opportunity to hear it, allow it, because we can't move on until we know what's
being said, what's being said internally and interrogating that.
(30:18):
And for me that, so the paper that I wrote really came out of a long time ofinterrogating.
many things and thinking what went on just then?
What did I hear myself say?
And acknowledging that and working with it, think for me that's been so important.
(30:41):
And the discomfort has been probably my most powerful tool really, and being vulnerablewithout discomfort.
and exercising the discomfort, I think.
I was in a conversation with my supervisor the other day and we were talking aboutcoaching when there's a, it becomes apparent that there's poor mental health.
(31:07):
And one of the things that we were recognising was that that's a very uncomfortable placeto be if you're not used to being uncomfortable.
And actually we need to get used to being uncomfortable so that when uncomfortable thingshappen, we can hold it and not freak.
And just how useful that is as a part of us developing as humans.
(31:33):
So where are we when we're in the minority?
Where do we go to be in the minority and how do we learn to be in those, whatever thatlooks like, to be in that kind of context to understand?
a little bit of what it feels like for us.
(31:55):
Yeah, and just thinking about coach education as well.
just finished a long program today with a group of teachers and
On the whole, the greatest learning is that I'm more comfortable with the uncomfortable.
we're delighted to hear they're not saying I can ask a good question.
(32:18):
It's, it's just like, I am a bit more comfortable with being uncomfortable.
And I think, I think that is something that coaching can really serve in us and expand inus both in our practice as coaches and what we offer the people.
people we were because we don't grow in comfort, do we?
(32:39):
And I think that's so interesting from Fenella and sitting with that of when we do feelthat embodied experience, usually there's data there and it's slowing down enough to go,
interesting.
What's the data here?
What's going on?
(33:00):
how can I, something that I found very useful is just making that object.
you know, like not thinking that is me, that's just a part of me that's freaking out inthis moment.
So what's going on?
How can I speak to it?
How can I settle it?
How can I get in dialogue with it?
So that I'm then in touch with more of my humanity rather than just going, Oh, no, bequiet.
(33:23):
That's, I'm ashamed of that part of me.
Loving correction, right?
I can look at that part of me and go, you know, no, let's, let's.
I was very interested recently in the supervision session.
(33:47):
One of the things that's been taking up quite a lot of my thinking is about supervisionand how we can use that as well and how we can bring criticality into supervision.
And each person as they introduced themselves was talking about how they'd felt thevarious sessions they'd had with people.
(34:12):
were uncomfortable and they wanted to kind of correct that.
What were they doing wrong?
And I guess it's back to the same theme is that I encourage them to to be comfortable withtheir discomfort, their discomfort.
Discomfort is our friend, as you rightly said, it gives us data.
(34:35):
So I was quite pleased at the very end that it was a consistent agreement that that's
one of their biggest bits of learning.
And thing that I was left feeling curious about is surely that's got to be one of themajor numps of coaching.
How is it that coaches are being produced to think that unless it feels really comfortableand friendly and full of compassion and joy, then it's wrong or it's not good coaching.
(35:09):
So anyway.
Hold that question there.
Yes, and isn't it funny because the assumption that if I feel comfortable, they feelcomfortable, which of course is so not true.
I'm sitting, Fenella, with what you said about the nine-year-old you.
You
(35:29):
And all those teachers around you, all those lovely people who opened up the space for youto go in, all of whom individually have been part of your journey of learning about this.
And it's often, it, in those uncomfortable places where we do do our best learning, eventhough it's really hard.
(35:50):
And for a nine-year-old you, you know, that's a difficult lesson to learn.
And I wonder what we can do to harness our teachers who might be in the present, who mightbe in the past.
(36:11):
I can remember when I was a teacher in Kenya.
and given enormous amount of white privilege, even though I was in the minority by someconsiderable distance, you know, two white people in 2000 kilometres or something, I mean,
a lot of space.
(36:37):
It was the person who didn't give me privilege from whom I learnt the most.
And I was so delighted to meet this gentleman.
He'd been a Maomao fighter in the Kenyan, in the war of independence in the 1960s andhadn't seen a white person since.
(36:57):
And he was related to one of my students who said, let's go and meet, go and see him.
And it was completely formative because I needed to be, it was important for me to be.
not elevated.
And however much I tried to not have privilege, I did.
(37:19):
You can't not have it, can you?
If you've got it, you can't un-have it.
So such an interesting experience.
And the people in your shop, Naomi, you'll have the people, we'll all have, everyonelistening will have all kinds of people who we can remember as being teachers for us.
(37:43):
And how do we respect and honour that?
think it's a really interesting question.
So I'm going to put your paper in the show notes, Fenella.
What's...
And name me your contact details as well, and both of your contact details so people cancontinue the conversation if they wish to.
(38:09):
What's your challenge to our listeners as we finish today?
Gosh.
Well, I keep coming back to this idea of tracking your evolution and your moments ofinsight lifelong.
(38:36):
Can you express that in a way that feels authentic and courageous?
in the here and now.
and, and I think, you know, this podcast was, you know, about inclusion and difference.
And we live in a time when people are being told they don't have the right to exist.
(39:05):
which is, deeply painful agonizing for so many, so many people.
on the planet.
kind of what is, what is your role and what is coaching's role in this moment?
(39:25):
when there's this ferocious sense of exclusion.
And I just briefly.
share a story.
Last week, I was doing a workshop on belonging with some head teachers and we played agame where the first round you moved around and you gave each other belonging cues.
So hello, how are you?
(39:46):
Gentle touch, eye contact.
And then the next round, everyone moved around, they made eye contact and then they brokeit.
Just looked away.
And after about 40 seconds, people went, stop, stop, I can't stand it, I can't stand it.
So that to me illustrated like a fractal of what it is to be excluded.
(40:07):
So, yeah, maybe those are two separate things, but you know, that the pain of exclusion wefeel in those small moments, imagine what that's like for people facing these real threats
to their lives.
So yeah, I guess, I guess to reflect on what's the, what's the role of coaching in thismoment.
(40:33):
vanilla.
Yes, I'd like to pick up on that.
Because one of the things I quite often hear, particularly from Black colleagues, is theviolence of coaching.
In fact, kind of how their experience has been about actually coaching is not a safespace.
(41:04):
The other thing I think is particularly those of us who identify as white, you know, webring out our whiteness wherever we are.
And for some reason, and one of the things I do celebrate today is that all three of usare people who are white people in this space talking about diversity.
(41:25):
Because so often we expect that actually where's the black person who can tell us aboutthis?
Where's the black person who can tell us how to do this?
And actually, as we know, and I know I've made quite a thing about that in my paper, butit's a very abiding thing that I hear again and again is how so often people of color are
(41:50):
so fed up with having to tell their story.
And what work are we as white people doing to kind of...
work with everybody because that's the other thing.
is a difference, it's a universal issue.
It's not, I'm going to be working with this person today who's neurodiverse or I'm goingto be working with somebody else who has mental health problems and it's something about,
(42:18):
must flick the switch on or that switch on and actually this is everybody and how can webe authentic with that.
And how can we bring our integrity and enable them to bring their authenticity andintegrity into the space?
(42:39):
Thank you.
with us in the journey really.
because they're not different, we're all different.
And yeah, we're doing another podcast soon about safety and courage.
Because one of the things that bothers me is when coaches say this is a safe space.
(43:00):
And I want to go, you can't say that.
none of us have the right to tell anyone that this is a safe space.
Because it's not our decision.
But that's for another day.
it's not our experience how we don't know that person's level of vulnerability and andlack of sense of lack of safety.
(43:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, Fenella Trevillion and Naomi Ward, thank you so much for coming to The Coaching Inntoday and thank you everyone for listening.
Let's carry the conversation on.
Do send in what you're thinking and let's grow this because it matters.
(43:46):
So have a good day and we'll be back next week with another episode.
Bye bye.
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