July 12, 2025 • 39 mins
Join Claire Pedrick in this week's episode of The Coaching Inn as we explore the intricate balance between courage/ bravery and safety in the coaching world. Our guests, Lucy Holburn, Bryony Rowntree, and Josephine Knowles, share their insights and experiences on how to cultivate environments that foster trust and growth. We delve into the concept of "brave spaces" and discuss the importance of not just declaring safety, but actively creating it. Discover how these seasoned coaches navigate the delicate dance of trust, courage, and vulnerability in their practice.
If you found this episode insightful, please share it with a fellow coach who might benefit from these discussions. We'd love to hear your thoughts and experiences on creating brave spaces in coaching. Reach out to us at info@3dcoaching.com with your feedback or topic suggestions for future episodes.
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Keywords:
Coaching, Bravery in Coaching, Safety in Coaching, Trust Building, Coaching Spaces, Brave Spaces, Psychological Safety, Coaching Conversations, Trust and Growth, Coaching Techniques, Inclusive Coaching, Coaching Ethics, Coaching Challenges, Coaching Insights, Coaching Practices, Coaching Relationships, Coaching Dynamics, Coaching Environment, Coaching Strategies, Coaching Community
We love having a variety of guests join us! Please remember that inviting someone to participate does not mean we necessarily endorse their views or opinions. We believe in open conversation and sharing different perspectives.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:15):
Hello and welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn.
This week we are having an Open Table and we're going to talk about bravery and safety incoaching because Lucy Holburn made contact with me and said, wouldn't that make an
interesting podcast?
So I said, come, be in it.
If you don't already subscribe or follow The Coaching Inn, please subscribe or follow onthe platform that you use for your podcasting.
(00:43):
And please share this episode with another coach who you think would find it interesting.
So Lucy Holburn, Bryony Rowntree and Jose Knowles, welcome to The Coaching Inn.
Lucy, you start.
us, tell us a micro version of your journey to this point in coaching.
(01:06):
Okay, my background hi, I'm Lucy and I'm a coach in the sort of social impact world and Itrained during COVID at the same time as running a COVID support hub and having toddler
twins.
So that was a sensible choice.
Anyway, I'm also a facilitator and work in community engagement m in equalities and thatword safety.
(01:37):
is quite an interesting one.
So that was when I messaged you and said, this feels interesting about crossover betweensectors and how we're using that word and thinking about it.
So thanks for inviting me today.
Brilliant, can't wait to hear what you have to say.
Bryony, welcome to you.
Some connections, I think.
(01:59):
Yeah.
So I, well, I mean, I was brought up Quaker, I am Quaker, so I was always brought up tothink about what my work to do in the world was.
And I always looked to supportive care based roles work from care, literally care work,and think about how I could support in the world and
(02:21):
When I got to coaching, I'd thought about counselling, but was coaching.
I've always had a deep belief that we have inner wisdom and we need space for that.
And I love, you know, eldership in places where that still exists in an active way.
So coaching just seemed ideal for that sort of winged woman.
Be with someone to help them find their way with something.
(02:41):
And yeah, I've been doing it for eight years now and really focused on and working withpeople who are in social justice, climate work.
community engagement, arts, know, various things, working to make the society or people,planet a place.
em And they're often, as Lucy's talking about, holding a big load.
So safety, I've always felt safety is just so deeply important and come from asafeguarding background as well.
(03:07):
em I had that lens to come into with questioning, well, what do I do here in thisunregulated profession, I suppose?
Thank you, welcome.
Jose do you not know these two already?
No, I don't.
Lovely to meet you.
Hi, I'm Josephine or Jose How did I get here?
(03:30):
I think for me, it's been about a journey of working alongside women facing sexualexploitation and working to co-found a charity that's still running and doing brilliantly.
So I've kind of had that interest in how do you work alongside people who are invulnerable contexts?
or who have experienced trauma um and how do we kind of hold safety and how do we holdthat conversation together that is in partnership.
(03:58):
So I guess that's where I've kind of come from.
I'm currently freelance, involved in uh thinking partner or coaching, training and sort offacilitation stuff.
So that bit's not polished and I'm okay with that.
So still exploring.
Thank you.
And you know, there's so much connection between what each of you is saying about what youbring.
(04:22):
It's extraordinary.
And that's a beautiful thing.
So let's keep this conversation about safety and also bravery.
Because for me, there's something that says, if we want the people we coach to becourageous, then we need to also be courageous.
Not stupid, but courageous.
But there's also something that's bothering me more and more, which is why, Lucy, we that
(04:45):
first conversation that we had by email was so important, which is, I hear coaches say topeople, this is a safe space, or this is an inclusive space.
But that's not our call, right?
We can't look at this agreement.
I love this.
(05:07):
So Lucy, you opened up the conversation some months ago.
So what do you want to throw into the space right now?
Hmm, yeah, I guess it was em that word safe space and being told it's a safe space issomething that happens a lot.
(05:29):
And however, it definitely feels in the kind of facilitation and inclusion world, we'reshifting away from declaring something as a safe space because we just don't know.
And, you know, I think Bryony you touched or or just about trauma and we don't knoweverybody's experience in the space or.
everyone cultural experience.
(05:50):
em I was on a course a couple of years ago with somebody called em Sade Banks-Tubi.
She's a CEO of an organization working in equalities.
And she said Brave Space.
And I thought, wow, yeah, that's so that's absolutely right.
That just completely nailed it for me.
(06:11):
em
because it was rather than declaring something safe, it's kind of like, how do wecultivate the conditions for that safety?
And bravery feels even better in a way, because in coaching we're saying, because if it'sjust safe, is there growth?
So there's also another little edge to this, which is if it's brave and we can becourageous, then maybe that's also a part of this coaching lens.
(06:38):
em But yeah, back to safety, it was kind of like,
We must know that we can't declare if something is safe for people.
That's their feeling, isn't it?
But we can create the conditions as best we can.
Loving the word declare.
(07:02):
Because doesn't it feel different from say?
But it is declaring.
Bryony, what do you think you were nodding?
Yeah, well, I mean, for years now, I think the whole phrase, is a safe space I'vestruggled with and I have very open conversations with people about it now, whether it's
(07:24):
in a workplace space where I'm facilitating a workshop team coaching mental health firstaid training or one-to-one just with people that I work, you know, who do similar work and
have having that honest conversation because I think it's really important thing for us totalk about.
And I think it was someone years ago had said that they had used when this phrase startedbeing used and she was saying this is a safer space.
(07:52):
But still, think I might, yeah, through conversations have evolved on beyond that.
And I always say because we have to talk about it in the mental health first aid training.
em You know, I'm not going to say this is a safe space, but I do everything I can to makeit as safe as possible.
em So I come from that same place really with coaching and how I have that conversationand.
(08:13):
em and I just think it's so important.
One of the things I love about coaching is learning honest relationships.
and being able to hopefully cultivate together a space where we can say what we need tosay about how the space feels and what we need at any point and the hope that we are able
(08:33):
to do that even if it's a there's anything we should be working together.
Bravery is not a word I use much I tend to talk about courageous and I love the fact thatthat has heart in it as a root part of the root meaning because I think that allows
something for me of
I can feel a bit nervy about something, but that's different to feeling unsafe.
(08:55):
So I think that happens in my heart if I'm like, oh, I'm going to be brave in this spaceas a coach or where it's unsafe.
feel like my with the grounds, not sure.
So I get a very physical response to when I feel like I'm coming up against boundaries orsomething I need.
You need to stop and have different conversation versus like Quaker.
(09:16):
don't know if you know the name Quaker came from quaking.
at the thought of ministering when you really moved to say something from the depths ofyourself.
So it's a similar sensation, think, coaching when you come to that place, I need to bereally courageous here and offer something.
And that's a different story.
listeners who haven't learned French.
(09:40):
Courage comes from Cour, which is French for
in
It's probably heart in other languages too, I imagine.
But yeah, thank you for that, Bryony.
Yeah, so interesting to think about the difference between bravery and courage.
and that sauce.
(10:03):
as you're knotting.
em I guess I was thinking about, you know, what does psychological safety actually mean?
And there was something around taking risks without repercussions that I thought wasinteresting.
And then it kind of led me to believe, to think about
(10:23):
when people come to a session with us, what culture they come from, whether it's a blameculture or whether it's, you know, things are said behind your back or it's a snidey
culture.
And I think there's something around how do you co-create that session so that you can getto a place of high support, high challenge.
(10:44):
But I guess I was just thinking about the idea of, you know, what does it actually, whatdoes it bring the psychological safety and
And I think there was something for me around we actually feel when it's there andactually it's sort of deeply in our nervous system or in our gut.
know, we kind of feel it more than we kind of do if it, you we know if it's not there.
(11:09):
So there was something around that for me around sort of a definition and then how do weknow it's there?
It was sort of, you feel it.
And I definitely remember kind of quitting with a coach that I felt like.
trust wasn't there and it was a really awkward conversation to have to sack a coach likeoh why am I learning this now but it wasn't there the trust wasn't there and so you know I
(11:32):
knew I had to stop it so that's that's what I was ruminating on.
It's such a delicate dance, isn't it?
Because sometimes the trust isn't there because the coach doesn't trust themselves.
And they're, I mean this in the best possible way, but they're pretending that they'regiving off.
(12:01):
trust the vibes, but they're so scared inside that that is received in a different way.
So there's something about being able to be ourselves, isn't there, in the space?
actually just remembering to trust in the process means that you can be really present andnotice what is rather than feeling like you've got to control the outcome of that session
(12:30):
or that you're totally responsible for this enlightenment sort of light bulb moment that'sgot to happen.
And, you know, it was really clear in someone who's about to go for their assessment, but
Yeah, that's quite, there's a residue of that for a long time, isn't there?
As people find their feet as coaches and get more experienced.
(12:51):
And I wonder whether there always needs to be a little bit of...
uh
because otherwise
What are we doing?
So for me, it's like if I go and do a keynote somewhere, there needs to be a little bitof, here we go.
(13:12):
Is it going to be okay?
Because that brings something.
Briny.
Yeah, well, that made me think that sometimes bringing a lack of safety can come from themundane.
If you've not spent some time to, again, quite a phrase, get your heart and mind preparedand sort of like fiddling around with stuff straight on the call and haven't prepared
(13:37):
yourself in your being, which I'm saying you, but I'm including myself in this becauseI've definitely been guilty of and learned that.
then we're starting off from a place where we haven't actually stepped in holding already,which can have an impact.
Yeah, we need to arrive before the arriving.
(14:01):
Otherwise they're stepping into an empty space that we've just stepped into.
There was something I picked up on from what Joves said, and I also had a question forJoves, if that's all right.
I mean, you talked about different cultures, and I was thinking just that phrase,psychological safety.
I wonder how many people in workplaces feel unsafe when they're here now, back now, ifthey're being told that's present.
(14:25):
But just, that was just a thought that popped up.
The other thing was learning about firing your own coach.
And I was wondering what you learned from that, that we should, would be useful for.
you know, to be aware of being on the other side.
Yeah.
um
It's such good question because I think for me it took two or three sessions for me tosort of realize what I knew.
(14:53):
And it wasn't, she was lovely person, lovely, lovely, but she was performative, i.e.
she was a little bit what you said earlier, Claire, of that sort of nervousness of notbeing able to really ask questions or delve a bit deeper.
So it felt very surface level.
And I was just like, I can't.
I've got time or energy to be serviced.
I need to go in deep with somebody.
(15:15):
And so I kind of sort of said, oh, actually, this is not working for me.
Even though she asked me, she didn't ask me, sorry, she didn't ask me if this was workingfor me at all.
She didn't check in.
So that would be a principle.
It's like, how will we know this is not working for you?
You what will that conversation look like?
So something around that regular check in, I think is really important, but just having tobe.
(15:39):
honest about it really about what I needed um and gratitude.
But I think what I bear in mind is, you know, not everybody's as robust as me to say thisisn't working for me.
So how can I help them have that conversation?
So for me, it's embedded in my triage, it's in your chemistry session, whatever you callit, and it's embedded in contracting and sort of embedded in review really.
(16:06):
um
sort of midway review of like, how's this going?
What do we need to adjust?
Kind of questions that I hope give people a little bit of crumbs to be able to raisetrickier things.
So I think it's about building that trust slowly, I guess, is what I was kind of thinkingof.
(16:27):
Thanks.
just read a terrible novel.
I don't even remember the title of it, but somebody got locked in a room.
That was a bit of it.
But as you were talking, I was thinking, isn't it funny?
Because I think sometimes people feel that they're locked in a coaching relationship, andit's not in their gift to unlock the door, and they can't leave.
(16:47):
And that's not safe, because we feel locked in.
In the ICF ethics, it's not so clear in the other professional bodies, but in the ICFethics, there's a line that basically says the person we're coaching needs to be able to
walk away at any time.
But I think more significantly, they need to be able to know they can walk away at anytime and they need to feel that the door isn't locked.
(17:12):
And I wonder whether sometimes for the reasons people come or who recommended them to comeor how the
process was sold to them or whatever.
I think all of us sometimes work with people who don't know they can walk away unless wetell them they could.
(17:34):
I think that's particularly true when you're doing internal coaching.
So, you people know each other or you've been commissioned by a sponsor.
And that's been in my experience of just sort of having to reiterate constantly, this isconfidential.
Like I only say, yeah, it's going great to someone else.
I would never say even who I'm coaching.
So there's something around that confidentiality that we know already that needs to bereiterated, I think.
(17:59):
And the walk away, think is really key because otherwise...
you really are just talking very surface level things, whether it's about productivity,which is still important, but it might not be what they actually want to show up with.
So that's an interesting thought, I think.
And was interesting that that sounds like the lack of her ability to be brave actuallymade it unsafe.
(18:20):
Yeah.
because you couldn't build trust, you didn't know that she could go there with you.
Yeah, yeah I think so.
I've forgotten all about that.
So checking in.
is actually part of courage from the coach because the person might go, well, actuallyit's not doing, it's not really very useful to me.
(18:42):
So there's an exposing thing in checking in, isn't there?
But if we don't check in that, you know, they're all connected.
Lucy, as you are listening, what are you thinking?
em I'm thinking a bit more about em coaches, line manager, know, that kind of internalcoaching in organizations and how actually there's so much challenge around that really,
(19:05):
isn't there?
And when there are power dynamics or relationships that exist, em you know, it's soundingalmost irresponsible that, you know, that somebody can't walk away or, you know, it feels
like there's,
eh There's new insight there for me because em it's actually a tough gig, isn't it?
(19:31):
If you're the manager trying to be a coach, em there's a lot more in that than anindependent coach relationship.
And how do we really make that very safe for everybody concerned?
can't be a coach, can you?
Because there are lots of things they can't say to you because you're the line manager.
(19:56):
So we can offer people coaching questions and encourage them to go away, think about it.
But there will be a superficial level.
So it's a bit of a car crash when the person in the organization has just been on a reallybrilliant coaching course and learned to work deeply with people.
(20:17):
And then they go back to work and go, I can use coaching with my colleagues.
And then they try and go deep.
Because of course they can go deep.
But there are people we can't go deep with because the people we're working with can'tunsay what they've just said.
And actually, we're asking them.
We're asking them to go beyond the boundary that's okay.
(20:40):
So yeah, it's a very interesting thing.
I'm just reminded of when I interviewed.
um
organisations are
Yeah, they're doing.
Yeah.
So manager as coach is a great thing.
it's not
Sorry.
(21:00):
Yeah.
No, which is why doing things like having people in this charity train to use coaching andhaving people in that charity train to use coaching, and then they coach across.
We used to do that in the NHS in the early 2000s when we started doing our coach training,we would have people from the primary care trust as it was called then and we'd have
(21:24):
people from the hospital and they would, they would switch.
So the person in the primary care trust who had somebody who needed coaching would asksomeone in the hospital to do the coaching and the other way around so that you didn't pay
the money, because that's what it was all about, but you did provide uh a place wherepeople could explore more deeply.
(21:47):
Yorkshire Accord, I think, does that up here.
I think it's a collection of internal coaches and they coach in someone else'sorganisation.
everybody else, but not their own.
Yeah, it's genius, isn't it?
It's a really good idea.
So Timothy Clark, in that conversation about psychological safety in series four, I thinkit was might have been series three, he said that psychological safety comes when people
(22:14):
are rewarded for being vulnerable.
That's quite an active thing, isn't it?
Because it's an action and not a feeling.
what does reward mean?
Because that could go many ways.
I think it's not paying them.
(22:35):
No.
I think not.
uh
But there's an exchange, isn't there?
there's also something about how do we be vulnerable in order for the other person to becourageous.
(22:55):
That comes back for me around uh belonging culture.
You know, do you feel included and that you belong in that culture?
And, you know, I think that that is a real dance because if people, if people don't orthey're not rewarded for being vulnerable and told to shut up or kind of, you know,
(23:17):
they're the problem.
You just kind of get a really weird culture going on.
So think that's, it's an interesting.
space to think about whether the, you know, the kind of culture that they sit in, I guess.
Yeah.
And I think as coaches, it's our, friends said this to me when we were talking aboutreturn to work.
So I've done quite a bit of return to work coaching, but it's up to the community thatsomeone's entering to welcome that person, not for that person to make themselves feel
(23:45):
welcomed.
So as coaches, part of our job is to make, is to welcome our thinking partner, client,coachee into the space, like being ready eh and greeting them.
well and warmly or however we are and work you know in our energies.
(24:06):
But then I think also there's a piece in so I've learned to em contract around beingimperfect with vocabulary and it started off partly to do but not just my dyslexia but
confidence around dyslexia and feeling like certainly in the early days I couldn't alwayscome up with clean questions.
So I just started to say to people, sometimes I might just give you a bundle of, offer youa bundle of words if you want it and see what comes out of it.
(24:31):
And it's helped me to contract around that.
Please don't be a good coaching client.
And how are we going to hear if they go, yes, I might do that.
And I can go, okay, what, how are you going to be showing up if that happens?
But yeah, that was, and that was quite a shift for me and being able to be more relaxedand feel more courageous in going, this is something I struggle with.
(24:52):
It's not always going to be clean questions.
It's not going to be a text book coaching in that way.
I'm happy with that.
Is that okay with you?
Because when we make mistakes, we give permission for the other person to make mistakes.
I love what you said about welcome, Bryony.
It makes some sense for me of some writing that I've been doing about the coach as host.
(25:19):
Because as much as it's our space together,
There is something about us hosting.
read on holiday, I read The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker.
I don't know if anyone's read it.
shelf.
I haven't read it yet.
say it was on my shelf for a long time and then I wanted a quote from it for the bit I waswriting about hosting.
(25:44):
I've all got it.
uh I really recommend it.
because it's very easy to read and because what she's describing isn't actually one-to-onecoaching ever, there's loads of meaning to be made from what she says that we can take
(26:08):
into the one-to-one space.
It's given me a whole load of new stuff.
um Yeah, really simple stuff.
I, which, as you were saying, welcome, I thought, of course it's welcome.
May I quote you on that in a book, Bryony?
(26:32):
Thank you very much.
We're bringing people into circle almost like thinking about sort of more ancient and wellnot current as well human ways of being and it's a circle of two.
But we've taken our place first and invited them in.
they can only go into the circle as much as we're willing to go into the circle.
(26:56):
So if they jump straight into the middle, which some people do, and we don't, they're ontheir own and they feel like we're looking at them, which maybe Jo's a little bit
connected with what you were describing.
So noticing how much people are stepping in and how much we're stepping in, I think isreally fundamental.
(27:23):
I was thinking about this also in terms of tears.
When people bring tears to the space and that idea of when you feel safe enough to cry andour response to that as well, which I may well be taking to supervision sometime this
week.
But there was something around that, wow, someone trusts you enough to kind of, cry with,to just have that moment of crying.
(27:48):
And I was wondering about different people's responses to that and how we...
kind of normalize tears and I often say tears are welcome or something but then I alwaysthink, God does that sound awful?
But there was something around that being emotionally free that kind of can signifysafety.
(28:12):
And I think it's about kind of, again, how do you normalize that emotional expression,whether it's that or laughing or whatever.
and will I let myself leak?
or do I feel that I have to hold back?
I know there's something about not sobbing with...
(28:35):
There's something I do, okay, let's say we're not gonna, you I am completely overtaken bymy emotion and I'm incapable of being present here.
We're not talking about that.
But there is something I think, if you're gonna talk about safety, that actually says, ifyour tears...
(28:58):
evoke tears in me.
I think that's okay.
I think what's not okay is I try and be terribly nice about, terribly English.
Come on Lucy.
No, go Bryony in then Lucy.
I don't think it's just tears.
(29:19):
So if I'm not in the room with someone, unless they request it, I work without videobecause for me, I listen deeper and I hear deeper.
I contract around, if this regularly happens, as soon as someone apologizes for emotion,we contract around that.
And I tend to say, if we were in the same room, there'd be a box of tissues, but I'm notgoing to pass it to you.
(29:42):
If you're crying, I'm not going to interrupt.
If you're swearing, if you're shouting, you're laughing, I'm not going to interrupt.
I be with you in that and we'll explore it when you're ready.
But the same with if someone gets really excited and happy and they're on a roll and likethere's something about what you just said Claire that I thought, yeah, I will feed back
to them that I've got cheesecake from smiling so much while they're telling me this.
(30:04):
But I wouldn't necessarily, well I might do, if we're in the room together.
I wouldn't necessarily be jumping for joy if they're also, you know, it depends.
getting a sense for what's most useful there, but not diving in the river with them, butbeing there.
But that will bring some connection emotion, I think.
(30:31):
I often have a tear when somebody's had an amazing win.
You go, that's amazing!
Here it comes.
Well I still cry on sports day and my kids don't even compete anymore so I cry all sortsof things my eyes leak.
(30:53):
I'm smiling and nodding because I am a leaker and I'm so happy to hear Claire that it'stotally fine.
Apparently that's great because I do and it more often than not is that welling up of likethis is brilliant like yeah something incredible is happening.
think we just need to be clear on whether it...
(31:14):
Because often it's their stuff that is emoting in us.
That's a word I've just made up, or maybe it's a word.
And sometimes we'll leak a tear in response to something they've said and they won't.
But there's a difference between leaking and sobbing.
Yes.
(31:36):
But yeah, because we're humans, right?
And emotional is a normal thing.
think there can be a real impact on the relationship, a positive impact on therelationship when there's that emotional connection and we are feeling things alongside
them, especially when it's a developed relationship.
(31:57):
I think more so.
And if we're going to be with, then we're going to be with.
So it's, Jose's.
So I wonder whether a good word think about in this is consent, because there's somethingaround people consenting to go deep within themselves and consenting to go with you to
(32:22):
that space.
And I wonder if that's a way of thinking about kind of trust and you know, we consent totrust to go there with you.
That's really clunky language, but yeah, I'm just thinking about that word, whether that'suseful.
(32:44):
think that's really useful.
consent to being human.
Yeah.
Yeah.
As a human.
And not as a...
Because we are two humans in the space and sometimes, yeah, we are two humans in thespace.
Or many.
(33:05):
And in community development work, often say we move at the speed of trust.
You know, that's how fast we can go.
And we can't go faster than that.
And that feels quite translatable.
Me too.
(33:27):
And sometimes the speed of trust in a one-to-one is quite fast.
And sometimes it's really slow and sometimes it may never be present.
Go on, Bryony.
We've had thought now I've got another thought.
It's always so interesting.
I don't Yeah, I think on the back of what you've just said, Claire, people, even in thatfirst session or if I do a little bit of coaching in the first inquiry call, if they want
(33:58):
to, people can be surprised how far they've gone into something.
But that, I think that's a great beginning to acknowledge actually is them.
done that, they've done the work uh and for them to learn that they're capable of holdingthemselves there as well and doing that.
(34:21):
Often when people say, I didn't expect to tell you that, I don't think I've ever toldanyone that.
I'll go, and is that okay?
Because I think that checking in actually goes, you don't have to stay this deep if youdon't want to.
We can, but you don't have to.
(34:41):
So the is that okay question for me seems to work well because they know, oh, you shouldnot want to make me do that.
And of course what they always do then is just to get deeper because they know that theydidn't have to.
(35:02):
Wow.
Yeah.
Permission and consent.
So what an interesting conversation.
I guess my question is, as we begin to wrap up, ah what's the question that you're takingaway?
All the insights.
(35:33):
going to think a bit more about that noticing how far, I quite like the idea of likearriving and then jumping into the circle and maybe I've got a bird's eye view of that
circle and now and I might just have that as a noticing thing in my head how far have wejumped in eh we just gone feet first into the middle or we kind of tiptoeing uh
(36:00):
that feels like that might be quite useful at lens to just of just yeah maybe it's ayardstick.
Briony.
I'm really struck by Lucy's comment about go at pace at the Trust Graves, or I can'tremember the exact words, but I've got a sense of it.
(36:26):
And remembering asking someone in the group asking to put on the group agreement, theTrust, and me having to unpack that, that actually, do we need in place?
So thinking about the way Lucy put, phrased that, if we are tiptoeing around that circle,what needs to shift?
(36:48):
Nice.
Cheers.
think it'll probably be thinking a bit more about giving people the power to walk awaywithout shame or it being about performance.
know, this is just not a good fit and actually that's okay rather than, ah you know, maybetaking it personally or, you know, going to those spaces, but just, you know, when it
(37:15):
works and I think when it doesn't, it's okay to just, if you're going deep, is, if you'renot, you know.
keeping at service level.
So something around that, think.
Nice.
What I'm taking away is declare or inquire.
Thank you, Lucy.
And the welcome thing.
(37:36):
So, yeah, thank you.
bring our stories around leaving relationships and all the stuff we have.
Yeah, and that's something really worth exploring in supervision, isn't it?
Because when do we not end relationships?
Because we're not very good at ending.
(37:56):
And we don't make it safe for the other person to leave.
That's another podcast.
That is another podcast.
oh
sometimes some people would prefer things never to end.
(38:17):
Because ending is such a difficult thing.
So.
Tell us, the lovely listeners, what you'd like the next podcast to be that bounces out ofthis.
Send an email to info at 3dcoaching.com with your best idea, and then you'll be the guest.
We'll get some other people to come along and talk about it with you.
So that depends how courageous you're feeling.
(38:41):
Thank you so much, Lucy Holburn, Bryony Rowntree and Josephine Knowles for coming to TheCoaching Inn, and thank you everyone for listening.
Bye-bye.
Thank you.
you
Hello and welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn.
This week we are having an Open Table and we're going to talk about bravery and safety incoaching because Lucy Holburn made contact with me and said, wouldn't that make an
interesting podcast?
So I said, come, be in it.
If you don't already subscribe or follow The Coaching Inn, please subscribe or follow onthe platform that you use for your podcasting.
(00:43):
And please share this episode with another coach who you think would find it interesting.
So Lucy Holburn, Bryony Rowntree and Jose Knowles, welcome to The Coaching Inn.
Lucy, you start.
us, tell us a micro version of your journey to this point in coaching.
(01:06):
Okay, my background hi, I'm Lucy and I'm a coach in the sort of social impact world and Itrained during COVID at the same time as running a COVID support hub and having toddler
twins.
So that was a sensible choice.
Anyway, I'm also a facilitator and work in community engagement m in equalities and thatword safety.
(01:37):
is quite an interesting one.
So that was when I messaged you and said, this feels interesting about crossover betweensectors and how we're using that word and thinking about it.
So thanks for inviting me today.
Brilliant, can't wait to hear what you have to say.
Bryony, welcome to you.
Some connections, I think.
(01:59):
Yeah.
So I, well, I mean, I was brought up Quaker, I am Quaker, so I was always brought up tothink about what my work to do in the world was.
And I always looked to supportive care based roles work from care, literally care work,and think about how I could support in the world and
(02:21):
When I got to coaching, I'd thought about counselling, but was coaching.
I've always had a deep belief that we have inner wisdom and we need space for that.
And I love, you know, eldership in places where that still exists in an active way.
So coaching just seemed ideal for that sort of winged woman.
Be with someone to help them find their way with something.
(02:41):
And yeah, I've been doing it for eight years now and really focused on and working withpeople who are in social justice, climate work.
community engagement, arts, know, various things, working to make the society or people,planet a place.
em And they're often, as Lucy's talking about, holding a big load.
So safety, I've always felt safety is just so deeply important and come from asafeguarding background as well.
(03:07):
em I had that lens to come into with questioning, well, what do I do here in thisunregulated profession, I suppose?
Thank you, welcome.
Jose do you not know these two already?
No, I don't.
Lovely to meet you.
Hi, I'm Josephine or Jose How did I get here?
(03:30):
I think for me, it's been about a journey of working alongside women facing sexualexploitation and working to co-found a charity that's still running and doing brilliantly.
So I've kind of had that interest in how do you work alongside people who are invulnerable contexts?
or who have experienced trauma um and how do we kind of hold safety and how do we holdthat conversation together that is in partnership.
(03:58):
So I guess that's where I've kind of come from.
I'm currently freelance, involved in uh thinking partner or coaching, training and sort offacilitation stuff.
So that bit's not polished and I'm okay with that.
So still exploring.
Thank you.
And you know, there's so much connection between what each of you is saying about what youbring.
(04:22):
It's extraordinary.
And that's a beautiful thing.
So let's keep this conversation about safety and also bravery.
Because for me, there's something that says, if we want the people we coach to becourageous, then we need to also be courageous.
Not stupid, but courageous.
But there's also something that's bothering me more and more, which is why, Lucy, we that
(04:45):
first conversation that we had by email was so important, which is, I hear coaches say topeople, this is a safe space, or this is an inclusive space.
But that's not our call, right?
We can't look at this agreement.
I love this.
(05:07):
So Lucy, you opened up the conversation some months ago.
So what do you want to throw into the space right now?
Hmm, yeah, I guess it was em that word safe space and being told it's a safe space issomething that happens a lot.
(05:29):
And however, it definitely feels in the kind of facilitation and inclusion world, we'reshifting away from declaring something as a safe space because we just don't know.
And, you know, I think Bryony you touched or or just about trauma and we don't knoweverybody's experience in the space or.
everyone cultural experience.
(05:50):
em I was on a course a couple of years ago with somebody called em Sade Banks-Tubi.
She's a CEO of an organization working in equalities.
And she said Brave Space.
And I thought, wow, yeah, that's so that's absolutely right.
That just completely nailed it for me.
(06:11):
em
because it was rather than declaring something safe, it's kind of like, how do wecultivate the conditions for that safety?
And bravery feels even better in a way, because in coaching we're saying, because if it'sjust safe, is there growth?
So there's also another little edge to this, which is if it's brave and we can becourageous, then maybe that's also a part of this coaching lens.
(06:38):
em But yeah, back to safety, it was kind of like,
We must know that we can't declare if something is safe for people.
That's their feeling, isn't it?
But we can create the conditions as best we can.
Loving the word declare.
(07:02):
Because doesn't it feel different from say?
But it is declaring.
Bryony, what do you think you were nodding?
Yeah, well, I mean, for years now, I think the whole phrase, is a safe space I'vestruggled with and I have very open conversations with people about it now, whether it's
(07:24):
in a workplace space where I'm facilitating a workshop team coaching mental health firstaid training or one-to-one just with people that I work, you know, who do similar work and
have having that honest conversation because I think it's really important thing for us totalk about.
And I think it was someone years ago had said that they had used when this phrase startedbeing used and she was saying this is a safer space.
(07:52):
But still, think I might, yeah, through conversations have evolved on beyond that.
And I always say because we have to talk about it in the mental health first aid training.
em You know, I'm not going to say this is a safe space, but I do everything I can to makeit as safe as possible.
em So I come from that same place really with coaching and how I have that conversationand.
(08:13):
em and I just think it's so important.
One of the things I love about coaching is learning honest relationships.
and being able to hopefully cultivate together a space where we can say what we need tosay about how the space feels and what we need at any point and the hope that we are able
(08:33):
to do that even if it's a there's anything we should be working together.
Bravery is not a word I use much I tend to talk about courageous and I love the fact thatthat has heart in it as a root part of the root meaning because I think that allows
something for me of
I can feel a bit nervy about something, but that's different to feeling unsafe.
(08:55):
So I think that happens in my heart if I'm like, oh, I'm going to be brave in this spaceas a coach or where it's unsafe.
feel like my with the grounds, not sure.
So I get a very physical response to when I feel like I'm coming up against boundaries orsomething I need.
You need to stop and have different conversation versus like Quaker.
(09:16):
don't know if you know the name Quaker came from quaking.
at the thought of ministering when you really moved to say something from the depths ofyourself.
So it's a similar sensation, think, coaching when you come to that place, I need to bereally courageous here and offer something.
And that's a different story.
listeners who haven't learned French.
(09:40):
Courage comes from Cour, which is French for
in
It's probably heart in other languages too, I imagine.
But yeah, thank you for that, Bryony.
Yeah, so interesting to think about the difference between bravery and courage.
and that sauce.
(10:03):
as you're knotting.
em I guess I was thinking about, you know, what does psychological safety actually mean?
And there was something around taking risks without repercussions that I thought wasinteresting.
And then it kind of led me to believe, to think about
(10:23):
when people come to a session with us, what culture they come from, whether it's a blameculture or whether it's, you know, things are said behind your back or it's a snidey
culture.
And I think there's something around how do you co-create that session so that you can getto a place of high support, high challenge.
(10:44):
But I guess I was just thinking about the idea of, you know, what does it actually, whatdoes it bring the psychological safety and
And I think there was something for me around we actually feel when it's there andactually it's sort of deeply in our nervous system or in our gut.
know, we kind of feel it more than we kind of do if it, you we know if it's not there.
(11:09):
So there was something around that for me around sort of a definition and then how do weknow it's there?
It was sort of, you feel it.
And I definitely remember kind of quitting with a coach that I felt like.
trust wasn't there and it was a really awkward conversation to have to sack a coach likeoh why am I learning this now but it wasn't there the trust wasn't there and so you know I
(11:32):
knew I had to stop it so that's that's what I was ruminating on.
It's such a delicate dance, isn't it?
Because sometimes the trust isn't there because the coach doesn't trust themselves.
And they're, I mean this in the best possible way, but they're pretending that they'regiving off.
(12:01):
trust the vibes, but they're so scared inside that that is received in a different way.
So there's something about being able to be ourselves, isn't there, in the space?
actually just remembering to trust in the process means that you can be really present andnotice what is rather than feeling like you've got to control the outcome of that session
(12:30):
or that you're totally responsible for this enlightenment sort of light bulb moment that'sgot to happen.
And, you know, it was really clear in someone who's about to go for their assessment, but
Yeah, that's quite, there's a residue of that for a long time, isn't there?
As people find their feet as coaches and get more experienced.
(12:51):
And I wonder whether there always needs to be a little bit of...
uh
because otherwise
What are we doing?
So for me, it's like if I go and do a keynote somewhere, there needs to be a little bitof, here we go.
(13:12):
Is it going to be okay?
Because that brings something.
Briny.
Yeah, well, that made me think that sometimes bringing a lack of safety can come from themundane.
If you've not spent some time to, again, quite a phrase, get your heart and mind preparedand sort of like fiddling around with stuff straight on the call and haven't prepared
(13:37):
yourself in your being, which I'm saying you, but I'm including myself in this becauseI've definitely been guilty of and learned that.
then we're starting off from a place where we haven't actually stepped in holding already,which can have an impact.
Yeah, we need to arrive before the arriving.
(14:01):
Otherwise they're stepping into an empty space that we've just stepped into.
There was something I picked up on from what Joves said, and I also had a question forJoves, if that's all right.
I mean, you talked about different cultures, and I was thinking just that phrase,psychological safety.
I wonder how many people in workplaces feel unsafe when they're here now, back now, ifthey're being told that's present.
(14:25):
But just, that was just a thought that popped up.
The other thing was learning about firing your own coach.
And I was wondering what you learned from that, that we should, would be useful for.
you know, to be aware of being on the other side.
Yeah.
um
It's such good question because I think for me it took two or three sessions for me tosort of realize what I knew.
(14:53):
And it wasn't, she was lovely person, lovely, lovely, but she was performative, i.e.
she was a little bit what you said earlier, Claire, of that sort of nervousness of notbeing able to really ask questions or delve a bit deeper.
So it felt very surface level.
And I was just like, I can't.
I've got time or energy to be serviced.
I need to go in deep with somebody.
(15:15):
And so I kind of sort of said, oh, actually, this is not working for me.
Even though she asked me, she didn't ask me, sorry, she didn't ask me if this was workingfor me at all.
She didn't check in.
So that would be a principle.
It's like, how will we know this is not working for you?
You what will that conversation look like?
So something around that regular check in, I think is really important, but just having tobe.
(15:39):
honest about it really about what I needed um and gratitude.
But I think what I bear in mind is, you know, not everybody's as robust as me to say thisisn't working for me.
So how can I help them have that conversation?
So for me, it's embedded in my triage, it's in your chemistry session, whatever you callit, and it's embedded in contracting and sort of embedded in review really.
(16:06):
um
sort of midway review of like, how's this going?
What do we need to adjust?
Kind of questions that I hope give people a little bit of crumbs to be able to raisetrickier things.
So I think it's about building that trust slowly, I guess, is what I was kind of thinkingof.
(16:27):
Thanks.
just read a terrible novel.
I don't even remember the title of it, but somebody got locked in a room.
That was a bit of it.
But as you were talking, I was thinking, isn't it funny?
Because I think sometimes people feel that they're locked in a coaching relationship, andit's not in their gift to unlock the door, and they can't leave.
(16:47):
And that's not safe, because we feel locked in.
In the ICF ethics, it's not so clear in the other professional bodies, but in the ICFethics, there's a line that basically says the person we're coaching needs to be able to
walk away at any time.
But I think more significantly, they need to be able to know they can walk away at anytime and they need to feel that the door isn't locked.
(17:12):
And I wonder whether sometimes for the reasons people come or who recommended them to comeor how the
process was sold to them or whatever.
I think all of us sometimes work with people who don't know they can walk away unless wetell them they could.
(17:34):
I think that's particularly true when you're doing internal coaching.
So, you people know each other or you've been commissioned by a sponsor.
And that's been in my experience of just sort of having to reiterate constantly, this isconfidential.
Like I only say, yeah, it's going great to someone else.
I would never say even who I'm coaching.
So there's something around that confidentiality that we know already that needs to bereiterated, I think.
(17:59):
And the walk away, think is really key because otherwise...
you really are just talking very surface level things, whether it's about productivity,which is still important, but it might not be what they actually want to show up with.
So that's an interesting thought, I think.
And was interesting that that sounds like the lack of her ability to be brave actuallymade it unsafe.
(18:20):
Yeah.
because you couldn't build trust, you didn't know that she could go there with you.
Yeah, yeah I think so.
I've forgotten all about that.
So checking in.
is actually part of courage from the coach because the person might go, well, actuallyit's not doing, it's not really very useful to me.
(18:42):
So there's an exposing thing in checking in, isn't there?
But if we don't check in that, you know, they're all connected.
Lucy, as you are listening, what are you thinking?
em I'm thinking a bit more about em coaches, line manager, know, that kind of internalcoaching in organizations and how actually there's so much challenge around that really,
(19:05):
isn't there?
And when there are power dynamics or relationships that exist, em you know, it's soundingalmost irresponsible that, you know, that somebody can't walk away or, you know, it feels
like there's,
eh There's new insight there for me because em it's actually a tough gig, isn't it?
(19:31):
If you're the manager trying to be a coach, em there's a lot more in that than anindependent coach relationship.
And how do we really make that very safe for everybody concerned?
can't be a coach, can you?
Because there are lots of things they can't say to you because you're the line manager.
(19:56):
So we can offer people coaching questions and encourage them to go away, think about it.
But there will be a superficial level.
So it's a bit of a car crash when the person in the organization has just been on a reallybrilliant coaching course and learned to work deeply with people.
(20:17):
And then they go back to work and go, I can use coaching with my colleagues.
And then they try and go deep.
Because of course they can go deep.
But there are people we can't go deep with because the people we're working with can'tunsay what they've just said.
And actually, we're asking them.
We're asking them to go beyond the boundary that's okay.
(20:40):
So yeah, it's a very interesting thing.
I'm just reminded of when I interviewed.
um
organisations are
Yeah, they're doing.
Yeah.
So manager as coach is a great thing.
it's not
Sorry.
(21:00):
Yeah.
No, which is why doing things like having people in this charity train to use coaching andhaving people in that charity train to use coaching, and then they coach across.
We used to do that in the NHS in the early 2000s when we started doing our coach training,we would have people from the primary care trust as it was called then and we'd have
(21:24):
people from the hospital and they would, they would switch.
So the person in the primary care trust who had somebody who needed coaching would asksomeone in the hospital to do the coaching and the other way around so that you didn't pay
the money, because that's what it was all about, but you did provide uh a place wherepeople could explore more deeply.
(21:47):
Yorkshire Accord, I think, does that up here.
I think it's a collection of internal coaches and they coach in someone else'sorganisation.
everybody else, but not their own.
Yeah, it's genius, isn't it?
It's a really good idea.
So Timothy Clark, in that conversation about psychological safety in series four, I thinkit was might have been series three, he said that psychological safety comes when people
(22:14):
are rewarded for being vulnerable.
That's quite an active thing, isn't it?
Because it's an action and not a feeling.
what does reward mean?
Because that could go many ways.
I think it's not paying them.
(22:35):
No.
I think not.
uh
But there's an exchange, isn't there?
there's also something about how do we be vulnerable in order for the other person to becourageous.
(22:55):
That comes back for me around uh belonging culture.
You know, do you feel included and that you belong in that culture?
And, you know, I think that that is a real dance because if people, if people don't orthey're not rewarded for being vulnerable and told to shut up or kind of, you know,
(23:17):
they're the problem.
You just kind of get a really weird culture going on.
So think that's, it's an interesting.
space to think about whether the, you know, the kind of culture that they sit in, I guess.
Yeah.
And I think as coaches, it's our, friends said this to me when we were talking aboutreturn to work.
So I've done quite a bit of return to work coaching, but it's up to the community thatsomeone's entering to welcome that person, not for that person to make themselves feel
(23:45):
welcomed.
So as coaches, part of our job is to make, is to welcome our thinking partner, client,coachee into the space, like being ready eh and greeting them.
well and warmly or however we are and work you know in our energies.
(24:06):
But then I think also there's a piece in so I've learned to em contract around beingimperfect with vocabulary and it started off partly to do but not just my dyslexia but
confidence around dyslexia and feeling like certainly in the early days I couldn't alwayscome up with clean questions.
So I just started to say to people, sometimes I might just give you a bundle of, offer youa bundle of words if you want it and see what comes out of it.
(24:31):
And it's helped me to contract around that.
Please don't be a good coaching client.
And how are we going to hear if they go, yes, I might do that.
And I can go, okay, what, how are you going to be showing up if that happens?
But yeah, that was, and that was quite a shift for me and being able to be more relaxedand feel more courageous in going, this is something I struggle with.
(24:52):
It's not always going to be clean questions.
It's not going to be a text book coaching in that way.
I'm happy with that.
Is that okay with you?
Because when we make mistakes, we give permission for the other person to make mistakes.
I love what you said about welcome, Bryony.
It makes some sense for me of some writing that I've been doing about the coach as host.
(25:19):
Because as much as it's our space together,
There is something about us hosting.
read on holiday, I read The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker.
I don't know if anyone's read it.
shelf.
I haven't read it yet.
say it was on my shelf for a long time and then I wanted a quote from it for the bit I waswriting about hosting.
(25:44):
I've all got it.
uh I really recommend it.
because it's very easy to read and because what she's describing isn't actually one-to-onecoaching ever, there's loads of meaning to be made from what she says that we can take
(26:08):
into the one-to-one space.
It's given me a whole load of new stuff.
um Yeah, really simple stuff.
I, which, as you were saying, welcome, I thought, of course it's welcome.
May I quote you on that in a book, Bryony?
(26:32):
Thank you very much.
We're bringing people into circle almost like thinking about sort of more ancient and wellnot current as well human ways of being and it's a circle of two.
But we've taken our place first and invited them in.
they can only go into the circle as much as we're willing to go into the circle.
(26:56):
So if they jump straight into the middle, which some people do, and we don't, they're ontheir own and they feel like we're looking at them, which maybe Jo's a little bit
connected with what you were describing.
So noticing how much people are stepping in and how much we're stepping in, I think isreally fundamental.
(27:23):
I was thinking about this also in terms of tears.
When people bring tears to the space and that idea of when you feel safe enough to cry andour response to that as well, which I may well be taking to supervision sometime this
week.
But there was something around that, wow, someone trusts you enough to kind of, cry with,to just have that moment of crying.
(27:48):
And I was wondering about different people's responses to that and how we...
kind of normalize tears and I often say tears are welcome or something but then I alwaysthink, God does that sound awful?
But there was something around that being emotionally free that kind of can signifysafety.
(28:12):
And I think it's about kind of, again, how do you normalize that emotional expression,whether it's that or laughing or whatever.
and will I let myself leak?
or do I feel that I have to hold back?
I know there's something about not sobbing with...
(28:35):
There's something I do, okay, let's say we're not gonna, you I am completely overtaken bymy emotion and I'm incapable of being present here.
We're not talking about that.
But there is something I think, if you're gonna talk about safety, that actually says, ifyour tears...
(28:58):
evoke tears in me.
I think that's okay.
I think what's not okay is I try and be terribly nice about, terribly English.
Come on Lucy.
No, go Bryony in then Lucy.
I don't think it's just tears.
(29:19):
So if I'm not in the room with someone, unless they request it, I work without videobecause for me, I listen deeper and I hear deeper.
I contract around, if this regularly happens, as soon as someone apologizes for emotion,we contract around that.
And I tend to say, if we were in the same room, there'd be a box of tissues, but I'm notgoing to pass it to you.
(29:42):
If you're crying, I'm not going to interrupt.
If you're swearing, if you're shouting, you're laughing, I'm not going to interrupt.
I be with you in that and we'll explore it when you're ready.
But the same with if someone gets really excited and happy and they're on a roll and likethere's something about what you just said Claire that I thought, yeah, I will feed back
to them that I've got cheesecake from smiling so much while they're telling me this.
(30:04):
But I wouldn't necessarily, well I might do, if we're in the room together.
I wouldn't necessarily be jumping for joy if they're also, you know, it depends.
getting a sense for what's most useful there, but not diving in the river with them, butbeing there.
But that will bring some connection emotion, I think.
(30:31):
I often have a tear when somebody's had an amazing win.
You go, that's amazing!
Here it comes.
Well I still cry on sports day and my kids don't even compete anymore so I cry all sortsof things my eyes leak.
(30:53):
I'm smiling and nodding because I am a leaker and I'm so happy to hear Claire that it'stotally fine.
Apparently that's great because I do and it more often than not is that welling up of likethis is brilliant like yeah something incredible is happening.
think we just need to be clear on whether it...
(31:14):
Because often it's their stuff that is emoting in us.
That's a word I've just made up, or maybe it's a word.
And sometimes we'll leak a tear in response to something they've said and they won't.
But there's a difference between leaking and sobbing.
Yes.
(31:36):
But yeah, because we're humans, right?
And emotional is a normal thing.
think there can be a real impact on the relationship, a positive impact on therelationship when there's that emotional connection and we are feeling things alongside
them, especially when it's a developed relationship.
(31:57):
I think more so.
And if we're going to be with, then we're going to be with.
So it's, Jose's.
So I wonder whether a good word think about in this is consent, because there's somethingaround people consenting to go deep within themselves and consenting to go with you to
(32:22):
that space.
And I wonder if that's a way of thinking about kind of trust and you know, we consent totrust to go there with you.
That's really clunky language, but yeah, I'm just thinking about that word, whether that'suseful.
(32:44):
think that's really useful.
consent to being human.
Yeah.
Yeah.
As a human.
And not as a...
Because we are two humans in the space and sometimes, yeah, we are two humans in thespace.
Or many.
(33:05):
And in community development work, often say we move at the speed of trust.
You know, that's how fast we can go.
And we can't go faster than that.
And that feels quite translatable.
Me too.
(33:27):
And sometimes the speed of trust in a one-to-one is quite fast.
And sometimes it's really slow and sometimes it may never be present.
Go on, Bryony.
We've had thought now I've got another thought.
It's always so interesting.
I don't Yeah, I think on the back of what you've just said, Claire, people, even in thatfirst session or if I do a little bit of coaching in the first inquiry call, if they want
(33:58):
to, people can be surprised how far they've gone into something.
But that, I think that's a great beginning to acknowledge actually is them.
done that, they've done the work uh and for them to learn that they're capable of holdingthemselves there as well and doing that.
(34:21):
Often when people say, I didn't expect to tell you that, I don't think I've ever toldanyone that.
I'll go, and is that okay?
Because I think that checking in actually goes, you don't have to stay this deep if youdon't want to.
We can, but you don't have to.
(34:41):
So the is that okay question for me seems to work well because they know, oh, you shouldnot want to make me do that.
And of course what they always do then is just to get deeper because they know that theydidn't have to.
(35:02):
Wow.
Yeah.
Permission and consent.
So what an interesting conversation.
I guess my question is, as we begin to wrap up, ah what's the question that you're takingaway?
All the insights.
(35:33):
going to think a bit more about that noticing how far, I quite like the idea of likearriving and then jumping into the circle and maybe I've got a bird's eye view of that
circle and now and I might just have that as a noticing thing in my head how far have wejumped in eh we just gone feet first into the middle or we kind of tiptoeing uh
(36:00):
that feels like that might be quite useful at lens to just of just yeah maybe it's ayardstick.
Briony.
I'm really struck by Lucy's comment about go at pace at the Trust Graves, or I can'tremember the exact words, but I've got a sense of it.
(36:26):
And remembering asking someone in the group asking to put on the group agreement, theTrust, and me having to unpack that, that actually, do we need in place?
So thinking about the way Lucy put, phrased that, if we are tiptoeing around that circle,what needs to shift?
(36:48):
Nice.
Cheers.
think it'll probably be thinking a bit more about giving people the power to walk awaywithout shame or it being about performance.
know, this is just not a good fit and actually that's okay rather than, ah you know, maybetaking it personally or, you know, going to those spaces, but just, you know, when it
(37:15):
works and I think when it doesn't, it's okay to just, if you're going deep, is, if you'renot, you know.
keeping at service level.
So something around that, think.
Nice.
What I'm taking away is declare or inquire.
Thank you, Lucy.
And the welcome thing.
(37:36):
So, yeah, thank you.
bring our stories around leaving relationships and all the stuff we have.
Yeah, and that's something really worth exploring in supervision, isn't it?
Because when do we not end relationships?
Because we're not very good at ending.
(37:56):
And we don't make it safe for the other person to leave.
That's another podcast.
That is another podcast.
oh
sometimes some people would prefer things never to end.
(38:17):
Because ending is such a difficult thing.
So.
Tell us, the lovely listeners, what you'd like the next podcast to be that bounces out ofthis.
Send an email to info at 3dcoaching.com with your best idea, and then you'll be the guest.
We'll get some other people to come along and talk about it with you.
So that depends how courageous you're feeling.
(38:41):
Thank you so much, Lucy Holburn, Bryony Rowntree and Josephine Knowles for coming to TheCoaching Inn, and thank you everyone for listening.
Bye-bye.
Thank you.
you
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