July 30, 2025 • 39 mins
Join host Claire Pedrick as she sits down with Georgina Woudstra to discuss the second edition of Mastering the Art of Team Coaching. Discover the transformative power of emergence in team coaching, the importance of inner development, and the artful simplicity of mastering team dynamics.
Key Topics:
- The evolution of team coaching and its growing popularity
- The balance between structured tools and emergent practices
- Insights into the artful approach to team coaching
- The role of presence and empathic responsiveness in coaching
Resources
- Mastering the Art of Team Coaching
- https://teamcoachingstudio.com/
- https://teamcoachingstudio.com/team-coaching-fundamentals/
Contact:
- Contact Georgina hello@teamcoachingstudio.com
- Contact Claire by emailing info@3dcoaching.com or check out our Substack where you can talk with other listeners.
Further Information:
- Subscribe or follow The Coaching Inn on your podcast platform or our YouTube Channel to hear or see new episodes as they drop.
- Find out more about 3D Coaching and get new ideas and offers in our weekly email.
Coming Up:
- Working Mother. With Rachel Morris
Keywords:
Team Coaching, Emergent Practices, Coaching Mastery, Georgina Woudstra, Coaching Techniques, Inner Development, Coaching Presence, Empathic Responsiveness, Coaching Dynamics, Team Coaching Studio, Coaching Insights, Transformative Coaching, Artful Coaching, Coaching Tools, Coaching Models, Coaching Journey, Coaching Community, Coaching Accreditation, Coaching Program, Coaching Skills, Coaching Strategies, Coaching Sessions, Coaching Conversations, Coaching Impact, Coaching Challenges, Coaching Success, Coaching Growth, Coaching Trends, Coaching Innovation, Coaching Expertise
We love having a variety of guests join us! Please remember that inviting someone to participate does not mean we necessarily endorse their views or opinions. We believe in open conversation and sharing different perspectives.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:15):
Hello and welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn.
I'm your host, Claire Pedrick, and today I'm in conversation with Georgina Woudstra, whohas been to The Coaching Inn before and is back because we are way overdue a coffee and
because she's got a new book out, her second edition of The Team Coaching Book.
(00:38):
So just a reminder, if you want to get every episode as it drops.
please subscribe or follow on your podcast platform and check out the sub stack inside thecoaching in for all sorts of backstage stuff.
Hello Claire, it's so wonderful to see you again and I hope as well as you talking aboutmy book we get to catch up a little bit on what you've been up to lately.
(01:07):
you and you.
So apart from, apart from writing a second edition of your book, what have you been up toin the last three years?
wow, what haven't I been up to?
No, it's been, we've been having a fantastic time really in the, the team coaching studioat getting to know lots of other amazing team coaching practitioners who come along to our
(01:29):
community and struck their staff and share ideas with us, which is great.
So we're really into broadening the number of voices around team coaching.
So it's not just mine.
We've deepened our diploma.
We're going more deeply.
into mastering, into emergence.
When we started the team coaching studio, Claire, in 2017, there were only about three orfour team coaching training programs in the world.
(01:58):
And that's because there weren't professional body accreditation.
Now the ICF, the AC, the MCC all have team coaching creditations.
And at the last count, there are well over a hundred different team coaching coursesavailable.
So people are saying to us now, what's different about yours?
So we're really trying to be clearer about our mission, which is to develop mastery andfor coaches to be able to go beyond tools and models and work in emergence and finding a
(02:32):
way to teach that and to do some quite advanced work with students who come and learn withus has been very exciting and massively rewarding.
And I'm really happy with how it's going.
So yeah, I've been up to that.
And right at the moment, I'm in Malaga in Spain.
My husband and dog and I traveled down here two months ago for a grand experiment.
(02:55):
So we've for a long while wanted to know what it's like to live and work down here.
So we thought, hey, we'll just come down and see what it's like.
How about you?
Good, thank you.
I would love to be living in Spain.
That's very tempting.
(03:15):
I thought that going to Spain to work for a week in the middle of a two week holiday was agreat thing, but you're now tempting me to stay for a lot longer next time we go.
Yes, we did the week before, two weeks before, know, holiday and gone to Spanish languageschool and things, but never for two months.
And it's just, it's glorious.
I love it.
(03:36):
Absolutely love it.
And hope we can come back again, you know, for more.
So yes, back home the end of next week, Sallie Claire.
but you've so inspired me because the digital nomad concept has to be more than a concept,right?
We have to start putting it into practice.
(03:56):
And those of us who work online a lot, why would we not?
It's really enabled it, especially now, you know, our kids have uh flown the nest, sowe're free to go and do that and I recommend it to anybody.
Yeah, when we were in Valencia and I was writing, every morning I walked to the beach andwatched the sunrise.
(04:18):
Then I had a coffee with my man in his cafe who wanted a selfie of me with my laptop andeverything.
It was great.
And then I'd go back to the apartment and write.
It was just fantastic.
Brilliant.
Now that's inspired me for the next book.
I need a writer's retreat in Spain.
oh
(04:40):
at writing in cafes except until I need the big screen.
When I need the big screen I have to be in my office.
So it depends how much of a mess my manuscript is in as to whether I can do it in So whathave you learnt about team coaching since version one?
(05:01):
Thanks for asking that Claire.
um
I've learned and somewhat it's confirmed what I suspected.
So now I've learned more deeply what I suspected quite a few years ago is that the highestimpact moments in team coaching, the most significant transformation come when we're
(05:28):
working emergently.
We may do a lot of other more structured stuff to create a container to
to get into the space where we're really working in the here and now.
But the memorable moments, the transformative moments, the deeper work all happen inemergence.
And that is something that I've known and understood and taught.
(05:51):
ah However, I think a few years ago, were many more coaches were in the place of give methe toolkit.
want the, I want.
the process, give me the in the box process so I can get out and start practicing.
Understandably, that's where people want to begin their practice.
But now people have got several years of team coaching practice.
(06:12):
going, it's helpful to have that toolkit, but it's no guarantee of success.
Inn fact, it's a long way from it because working with teams is messy, unpredictable,systemic, dynamic, it's constantly changing.
And if we're trying to process a machine, a team through a machine kind of process, it'snot going to work.
(06:40):
And sometimes our redesigned ideas, I we're so focused on getting through the agenda ordoing the exercise next on the list that we miss the moment that's happening right here,
right now.
So it's yes confirmation of that and in fact one of our diploma grads from the first evercohort Claire Sebastian Fox now Dr.
(07:07):
Seb Fox ah in his PhD research he was researching what has the greatest impact in teamcoaching and discovered the same thing it's through the well-held process of emergence so
there's more voices now.
exploring and joining us in this.
(07:29):
Which is exactly, of course, isn't it?
What happens in one-to-one coaching in the emergent?
I mean, it's exactly the same and different.
What I love about your work, Georgina, is how deep you've gone and how you surroundyourselves with people going deep so that when you share, you share from the wisdom of
(07:53):
practice and
When you look at the plethora of stuff out there.
either in the one-to-one space or in the team coaching space.
Finding the wisdom is a really important thing, I think, for coaches who are going to doany kind of development.
(08:13):
I agree.
mean, I guess these days anybody can put in chat GPT, give me a two day process forcoaching a team or something like that.
And I probably get a informed response based on books and stuff that's out there.
You know, you could get a
(08:35):
a workshop design for you in 30 seconds, I guess.
But the wisdom comes from being able to work with where the energy's at in the moment andwhat the system of the team is trying to communicate with us in this moment.
And that's beyond something that could be known to me before I'm in the room, let alone tochat GPT or uh to any book or process.
(09:04):
So a lot of our work is really about inner development.
You know, the best team coaches in my view, not just a one-off course, but a regularpractice is looking after our own inner space so that we can unhook ourselves from the
(09:26):
triggers, the worry, the need to overperform, all the stuff that has us agitated andworking too hard or...
uh in your head so that we can be present with the moment and choose in an intentional wayhow to intervene.
Hmm.
because it's, yeah, I love your description.
(09:48):
It's, we're the vessel.
Almost, aren't we?
Yes.
Yes.
And as you said, like with one-to-one coaching, it's a very similar thing about whatprepares you to be in presence for one-to-one coaching.
Simple things like cutting off all distractions.
(10:08):
But what prepares you to be present coaching a team?
How's some differences?
Because I find that many coaches feel greater pressure to perform.
in supervision are constantly saying to me, you know, I feel this need to add value.
I want to do a good job.
I want this to be successful.
(10:31):
And these, these wants are really well intentioned and wanting to be of service and canget in the way.
Cause ultimately it's the, it's the team's work to do just as in one-to-one coaching, it'sthe client's work to do.
So it's complex.
ah And yet actually
Once you get it, Claire, the interesting thing is it's remarkably and beautifully simple.
(10:55):
There's an artful simplicity to it.
And that's why I call my book Mastering the Art of Team Coaching, because it's an ongoingpractice of mastering.
I'm using the word artful now instead of mastery.
And how come?
What's brought that up for you?
(11:17):
I think partly because in the coaching space, mastery is a thing to attain.
We must get our master certified coach.
We must get our master credential.
We must do this.
Whereas the artfulness is much more for me, much more fluid and emergent and having thecapacity to dance in the space, I guess you could say.
(11:45):
Yes, exactly.
And that's very scary, I think, for a new coach.
Gosh, I remember, Claire, my first ever corporate coaching session.
So I'd done a load of uh freebies.
Thomas, do remember Thomas Leonard?
Yeah, dear Thomas Leonard, who was often thought I was one of the grandfathers ofcoaching, bit like John Whitmore.
(12:10):
Thomas said to me, this was more than 30 years ago, he said,
He said, just go out and get your first hundred clients, Georgina, even if you have to paythem to let you coach them.
So I'd done everything I could do to get my practice in.
got my first corporate client and I'd done mad things like, you know, looked at the listof a hundred great questions you could ask.
(12:34):
What's the magic question?
I was so nervous about adding value and what if I didn't see to be added value and
What if I ran out of things to think about or say?
There's so much road noise going on, so I have huge empathy for anyone starting out,because I've experienced so much of that myself.
Getting to the place where you can clear out that noise, like white noise on a radiostation, is such a beautiful and serene place.
(13:05):
We had five reams of paper for our handouts.
Do remember for coach university?
It was really thick.
yes, exactly,
And you had to go in your head to the page.
I thought this was somebody who was going to talk about this, but they're going to talkabout that.
But I read this page.
And I haven't read that page.
Yeah.
(13:25):
And now with team coaching, with so many schools, almost every one-to-one coach trainingschool is thinking about developing a team coach training program because you've got a
load of alumni there who are very loyal to the school who go, hey, train me in teamcoaching.
So I understand it makes commercial sense, but it's not easy for the faculty to gear upand get trained to deliver something.
(13:51):
So a lot of the courses on offer are
Here's a pre-designed workshop.
Here's an assessment tool so you can diagnose the team, you can find the gaps and thenhere's some modules to plug the gaps.
Useful stuff, it'll get you so far.
But what I want to say to people is be aware, be really aware that there's so much morelearning to do to go beyond that and that really begins with self.
(14:22):
So I'm curious, Claire, I'm sure this comes up for you as well in the training that you doaround the artfulness and presence.
How do you find you support coaches in getting in into that space inside themselves?
My favourite piece of development is improv training.
(14:46):
adults tell me about that.
You and your improv trainer.
Yeah.
Because the things that you're talking about, I don't think you can learn from a book.
Yes.
I think you can learn a lot from a book and I think you can learn a lot from a course andyou can learn a lot from practicing.
(15:06):
But moving from practicing to being in the room with somebody who doesn't know what you'redoing together and isn't necessarily brought into doing the work is such a huge challenge.
So I think all the stuff around courage, presence, being able to step in when you know youneed to step in but you don't know what to say but you do know you need to step in.
(15:31):
All of those things can be beautifully tried out in a safe and fun space of improv.
And our observation is that when coaches do that, they are much more confident to step inin the real world.
Inn the last two or three days, I've listened to a number of recordings for coaches whowere going for their MCC.
(15:56):
I tell them they're on a journey to become an artful coach and we'll get them recordingsfor their MCC on the journey at some point.
But what was fascinating with one yesterday actually was she said, I thought the personwasn't thinking and they were just telling me a lot of stuff.
And I said, well, let's just listen.
(16:18):
And through this person, 10 minutes they spoke for, oh lots and lots of talking.
The coach,
made noises at various moments during this thing and each of those noises was a momentwhen actually if they'd had the confidence they'd have then stepped in with something and
(16:41):
it was beautiful because I was able to say to her you've got your timing bang on now it'sthe work the work now is the courage to step in and she said but I don't know what to do
and I said no that's the point
Beautiful.
So you brought to life there what you experience in the room with improvisation and thatfeeling of one foot on the accelerator and the other even more firmly on the brake, isn't
(17:09):
it?
It's like that.
You're going, I've got, I know there's something coming up for me.
but I've got my foot in the brake.
that seems to be, and maybe another PhD student will research this at some point, Claire,but it seems to be an amplified phenomena with team coaches.
(17:30):
So uh what people do is they reach for the facilitators guide and the exercise, what's thenext step in the approach?
Because that's almost like,
clutching onto some guard rails gives that feeling of safety.
What are we going to do now, even if it's confusing or complicated?
(17:54):
See, one of the things that when I look at stuff written about team coaching out therethat's so very populated with models is it puts the coach into a position of needing to
become an expert or at least believing they need to become an expert and to have a load of
analytical stuff about what makes a great team, what makes a team highly effective, whatthey should be doing, how they should think, the team design, et cetera, et cetera.
(18:25):
And in all of that, we miss the fact that right in front of us is a living system thatalready has beauty and grace, even if it has bad behaviors and some difficult stuff going
on.
But there's beauty and grace in there.
just in the sheer fact that they call themselves a team and they get into a room virtuallyor in person together and they've been doing that repeatedly for some time.
(18:54):
I mean that's amazing in and of itself and then you see the team interact and even if onfirst sight it looks ineffective you can see there's some beauty within how they are
encountering each other.
And so part of our work is looking first to see the team in its wonderment and to see whatis supporting it and being a team.
(19:27):
without that thought, without that idea being sewn in your head that to be a livingsystem, there's something that's supporting the fabric of those connections.
Otherwise there'd just be, I don't know, like a bunch of dots with no line between them.
Training your eyes and look in wonder for that is very different from running anassessment tool and looking for the gaps.
(19:52):
And what I find when many coaches get in the room to start working, we might give them asimulation and they watch a team or live role play of a team and instantly their minds are
looking to critique what's not working here?
What would I like to see that should be better or different?
(20:14):
So if you take those two sort of polarities of, let's call it function and dysfunction tomake it rather extreme polarity, we might be out of awareness just looking for dysfunction
so we can add value.
Because if we point out the gaps, then we can close those gaps.
And we could, hey, we could even design a module around trust or get out that book,Covey's Speed of Trust or something like that.
(20:43):
by the Covey workshop on speed of trust and go and run that.
It's a fundamentally different approach to helping the team become aware of what reallysupports them, what brings them aliveness, what's already functioning, and then to become
aware of oh what's going into the shadow because of that.
(21:06):
So I'll give you an example.
So a team I was working with fairly recently, they're very brilliant engineers.
my goodness, their capacity to think is out of this, quite daunting.
I felt intimidated getting in the room with them because the IQ through the roof and thenyou've got that compound effect of being in the whole team of people like that.
(21:33):
uh Watching this team interact and the conversation is like,
We talk around a subject, they bring a subject in, they talk around the subject.
Somebody latches on to a piece of data and then collectively they go down a well-informedand highly educated rabbit hole, all sharing their knowledge about this one thread until
(21:57):
really the strongest player in terms of information wins or wins the points for the day orwins the conversation for the day.
So what we want to keep is their capacity to use their intellect.
Nobody wants to lose that.
(22:18):
What was in the shadow for them was really their capacity to connect that betweenthemselves.
It was more like a competitive sport than let's build on each other's ideas.
Let's take this forward.
Let's really listen deeply to each other.
Let's make sure
(22:38):
Each person's fully heard so we can extract the value from each thinker.
Simple idea, complex inaction.
And we want to keep both.
It's not a gap analysis.
You get that data just from being with the team in their natural habitat and seeing howthat team functions in their natural habitat.
(23:06):
It's a bit like going out into the jungle and
and being with the gorillas or something like that.
You're looking for their natural patterns.
You have spoken so many times in last few minutes about looking.
Yes.
Yeah.
I think that's the same in one-to-one.
And when we're looking in the book or the manual or the we're not seeing what's in frontof us.
(23:32):
One of the principles in improv is if you don't know what to do, look at the person infront of you.
Ah, and what are you looking for in the person in front of you Claire?
You don't know.
No idea.
But you're looking because you will find your next move from looking at the person who'swith you.
(23:55):
And that's what you're describing.
And in that looking, there's so much data.
It's not just the body language, um which is a lot of data in itself, especially in theteam.
Inn a team, there's the interactional patterns.
(24:15):
So one thing we teach ah is coaches you can track, you can look or listen for the content.
And many people who come into team coaching have a skillful facilitators, and they'reextremely good at listening.
and capturing all the threads of content so they can summarize that back.
(24:38):
So going beyond that, going one layer deeper, how do we observe, track, notice, process,which is how what's occurring in front of us is occurring.
What's the interactional dance that's here?
(25:00):
And what does that dance feel like?
So the third layer is the effective quality of that.
So allowing myself to be impacted by the team.
So what does it feel like being with this team as this dance is playing out?
And then another layer below that that isn't visible, so we can't access it just byobservation, are the dynamics.
(25:27):
Because the dynamics are always
You imagine like a volcano in an ocean, volcanic island.
Everything that's under the water, which may have deep roots like an iceberg.
That's what we're talking about as the dynamics unseen, but felt, they disturb.
(25:49):
They can even eat up and create an eruption like a volcano.
It's felt.
uh
Occasionally what bubbles up becomes visible, turns into behaviours or some kind of dramaplaying out.
But we feel it long before then.
So learning to tune in and give voice to and to make what's invisible visible.
(26:14):
And I think this is the artful way of a team coach is finding a way to give voice to makevisible what's invisible.
to name what's unnamed, to speak what the team have up until now found no words to speak.
(26:36):
And that's our own, comes through our own relationship with ourselves.
And that's uncomfortable.
and it's uncomfortable and can invite our inner dialogue of, that's just me.
This isn't about me.
It's about them and all that we disown about data that's affected, how we're beingaffected and realizing that that is data and being willing to act on that, which is...
(27:12):
to me like the improv part, it's, yeah, comes through the exchange, it's between.
And there's an intimacy in the dance that you're describing, isn't there, between the teamcoach and the team that requires the team coach to be looking.
(27:34):
to be looking and to be um showing up in a way, in their way of being, that creates asupportive container.
I really believe we need to aim for building a supportive container before we shift to anyform of provocation.
(28:00):
Ultimately, we're usually brought in to disturb.
because usually there's some agenda for change.
I say usually, I'm not sure I've ever been brought in where there's no agenda for change.
It might just be that that agenda is really not clear what they're wanting.
But my assumption is if I'm brought in and investing the time and the money, there's someagenda for change.
(28:27):
Therefore they want some disturbance, but for us human beings to risk.
the vulnerability or exposure of that disturbance.
We need a lot of safety and support.
So again, sometimes I see coaches going in to look and be present, but imagine they'redoing it like, I don't know, like a doctor in a white jacket with a clipboard and a pair
(29:03):
of glasses and a frown.
peeking up over the clipboard.
No, it shuts the team down.
And what you see is the team survival mode come out.
So the adaptive behaviors or resistance, as we call it, which is interrupting their owncontact with awareness.
(29:31):
Because they don't feel safe enough for that awareness to be seen.
And that's a lot about how we show up.
Yeah, that's vulnerability, isn't it?
Which means that we need to not know what we're going to do.
We need that the not knowing and the vulnerability, I think, come together.
And so similarly and differently in team coaching and one on
(29:52):
I think it goes a bit beyond that as well in um this idea that comes from Gish Dalt, whichI love, which is presence, real presence is about empathic responsiveness.
So sometimes when you watch a team interact, imagine you're on the sidelines or on abalcony, not with the team.
(30:20):
and you watch a team interact, one person says something and they may be met by pokerfaces.
or top of the head.
um or looking out the window, filling on my phone.
(30:43):
Now that's not just about it stifles thinking, it's that there's no contact.
And without contact with other, without contact with ourself or without contact withwhat's wanting to emerge, no coachable work is happening.
(31:04):
There's no data available to the system for us to work with.
So, so that empathic responsiveness is really important.
And sometimes coaches aren't aware of that.
They've not had the chance to think about that.
So they show up in this sort of, I think running a mantra of it.
(31:27):
Not, it's not about me.
And therefore one team member says something.
The coach keeps a poker face.
They track the content and write down the content of what someone said so I can summarizeit later.
Then they wait for them or invite the next person to speak.
I'm not, I can't respond to that.
(31:50):
And so it goes on where the coach is out of awareness, has not managed to build a contactfull, empathic, responsive space that builds a container.
Now, obviously we want to get to a place
where team members do that for themselves, where they're making the container, wherethey're in contact with each other.
(32:15):
That's the ultimate goal.
But many are unlikely to be there at the start.
So we need to be an anchor to begin with and build that container, hold that space tostart with.
So these are simple ideas and harder if you're
(32:36):
course running, where are we on the time, what's the next bit on the exercise, I've got toteach this model.
It's very hard to remember that, the importance of container building and empathicresponsiveness and the effective quality of presence.
which is all in one on one too, isn't it?
How interesting.
(32:57):
So Georgina, you've got a second edition of your book.
I do.
So I know lots of our listeners have bought the first edition.
What's different about the second edition?
Oh, thank you for asking Claire.
You know, had a quite a few months of negotiating with myself because I was feeling theurge to write a second book, which was much more purely about working emergently.
(33:30):
Because my first book, I wanted to meet coaches where they're at, which is give me thebasics, tell me what a team coaching journey might look like and what some of the
different
interventions along that journey might be and the competencies and so it's foundational.
But I also wanted to not create the illusion that that's enough, that working in acontactful, presentful, emergent way is important and I think I went so far with that in
(34:02):
the first book.
um
But I felt it needed more.
It needed to go further with that before writing a specific book on working emergently.
To help people understand, I guess, the essential balance between structure and emergence,how we need a holding container or a set of containers like a team coaching journey.
(34:29):
The client needs some sense of what's the journey look like that we're going to be goingon.
and what might those stages be and what's your approach to want to get into therelationship with you and to take the risk of being vulnerable, but to get into the more
(34:50):
impactful work we need to work So I wanted to bring that more clearly through and alsothrough our teaching in our diploma programme, some of the ideas expressed in the first
book.
I hadn't really written enough into, here's how.
(35:10):
And for example, what I talked with you about before about uh looking or observing thatyou you can process content dynamics levels as well as impact on self.
What does that really look like?
um Similarly with, if you're intervening emergently, how do you intervene?
(35:34):
at different levels of the system and what does that look like as an intervention?
And then I've put in more vignettes to try and bring it to life from stories, compilationsof stories really taken from so many different teams I've worked with uh to take it off
the page, hopefully, in a way that helps people picture an experience a bit better.
(36:00):
mean, as you say, can't,
only get so far with a book, at some point you really need to get into the Roman ahexperiment and practice and learn with practitioners.
But that was the idea behind it.
Sounds like our listeners who've got your book should be giving it away and buying thesecond edition.
(36:21):
I think that's a great idea.
Also, whether you bought the second book or not, you can go to our website and download awork accompanying workbook.
It'll make more sense if you've got the second edition because there's supportingmaterials for each chapter, but also a whole reflective um practice area.
(36:45):
So for example, Imagine Claire building your own
Team Coaching Manifesto, what would you say to clients perhaps about what your philosophyis of team coaching, how you think change happens, how you show up, what they can expect,
what you do, what you don't do?
(37:06):
So there's little workbook exercises for that and examples, and it's about 80 pages long,just the downloadable workbook.
So any listener can access that now, even if they've bought the book or not.
So we'll put a link to the book in the show notes.
We'll put a link to your website in the show notes.
And if people want to talk to you Georgina, how do they make contact?
(37:31):
They can email me at Georgina at teamcoachingstudio.com.
So please put that in as well if you're up for that Claire.
You can connect with me on LinkedIn.
We have a beautiful community of team coaches worldwide.
It's called the TCS Team Coaching Community where every month we run arena practicesessions inspired by Bernie Brown's, know, the courage of getting into the arena.
(37:59):
Nice!
the arena and practice and practice emergently.
We have team coaching clinics, which is a bit like peer supervision every month.
We're just about to start a inner development series in September, where my businesspartner, Alad De Jong, and I will be running a series of exploration into the IDG and the
(38:21):
development goals and what that means for team coaches.
And we also on our website, we have a free e-learning course.
that is really significant.
It's about 12 hours of learning called Team Coaching Fundamentals for anyone who's justwanting to get started, but does a bit more, then they're welcome to sign up for that as
(38:43):
well.
Fabulous.
All those resources, lovely listeners.
Yes, plenty.
Georgina, it's so lovely to have caught up with you a little bit.
ah
you for inviting me here today?
Well, pleasure.
Thank you for coming and everyone, thank you for listening and we'll be back next weekwith another episode.
Bye.
(39:04):
Bye bye.
Hello and welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn.
I'm your host, Claire Pedrick, and today I'm in conversation with Georgina Woudstra, whohas been to The Coaching Inn before and is back because we are way overdue a coffee and
because she's got a new book out, her second edition of The Team Coaching Book.
(00:38):
So just a reminder, if you want to get every episode as it drops.
please subscribe or follow on your podcast platform and check out the sub stack inside thecoaching in for all sorts of backstage stuff.
Hello Claire, it's so wonderful to see you again and I hope as well as you talking aboutmy book we get to catch up a little bit on what you've been up to lately.
(01:07):
you and you.
So apart from, apart from writing a second edition of your book, what have you been up toin the last three years?
wow, what haven't I been up to?
No, it's been, we've been having a fantastic time really in the, the team coaching studioat getting to know lots of other amazing team coaching practitioners who come along to our
(01:29):
community and struck their staff and share ideas with us, which is great.
So we're really into broadening the number of voices around team coaching.
So it's not just mine.
We've deepened our diploma.
We're going more deeply.
into mastering, into emergence.
When we started the team coaching studio, Claire, in 2017, there were only about three orfour team coaching training programs in the world.
(01:58):
And that's because there weren't professional body accreditation.
Now the ICF, the AC, the MCC all have team coaching creditations.
And at the last count, there are well over a hundred different team coaching coursesavailable.
So people are saying to us now, what's different about yours?
So we're really trying to be clearer about our mission, which is to develop mastery andfor coaches to be able to go beyond tools and models and work in emergence and finding a
(02:32):
way to teach that and to do some quite advanced work with students who come and learn withus has been very exciting and massively rewarding.
And I'm really happy with how it's going.
So yeah, I've been up to that.
And right at the moment, I'm in Malaga in Spain.
My husband and dog and I traveled down here two months ago for a grand experiment.
(02:55):
So we've for a long while wanted to know what it's like to live and work down here.
So we thought, hey, we'll just come down and see what it's like.
How about you?
Good, thank you.
I would love to be living in Spain.
That's very tempting.
(03:15):
I thought that going to Spain to work for a week in the middle of a two week holiday was agreat thing, but you're now tempting me to stay for a lot longer next time we go.
Yes, we did the week before, two weeks before, know, holiday and gone to Spanish languageschool and things, but never for two months.
And it's just, it's glorious.
I love it.
(03:36):
Absolutely love it.
And hope we can come back again, you know, for more.
So yes, back home the end of next week, Sallie Claire.
but you've so inspired me because the digital nomad concept has to be more than a concept,right?
We have to start putting it into practice.
(03:56):
And those of us who work online a lot, why would we not?
It's really enabled it, especially now, you know, our kids have uh flown the nest, sowe're free to go and do that and I recommend it to anybody.
Yeah, when we were in Valencia and I was writing, every morning I walked to the beach andwatched the sunrise.
(04:18):
Then I had a coffee with my man in his cafe who wanted a selfie of me with my laptop andeverything.
It was great.
And then I'd go back to the apartment and write.
It was just fantastic.
Brilliant.
Now that's inspired me for the next book.
I need a writer's retreat in Spain.
oh
(04:40):
at writing in cafes except until I need the big screen.
When I need the big screen I have to be in my office.
So it depends how much of a mess my manuscript is in as to whether I can do it in So whathave you learnt about team coaching since version one?
(05:01):
Thanks for asking that Claire.
um
I've learned and somewhat it's confirmed what I suspected.
So now I've learned more deeply what I suspected quite a few years ago is that the highestimpact moments in team coaching, the most significant transformation come when we're
(05:28):
working emergently.
We may do a lot of other more structured stuff to create a container to
to get into the space where we're really working in the here and now.
But the memorable moments, the transformative moments, the deeper work all happen inemergence.
And that is something that I've known and understood and taught.
(05:51):
ah However, I think a few years ago, were many more coaches were in the place of give methe toolkit.
want the, I want.
the process, give me the in the box process so I can get out and start practicing.
Understandably, that's where people want to begin their practice.
But now people have got several years of team coaching practice.
(06:12):
going, it's helpful to have that toolkit, but it's no guarantee of success.
Inn fact, it's a long way from it because working with teams is messy, unpredictable,systemic, dynamic, it's constantly changing.
And if we're trying to process a machine, a team through a machine kind of process, it'snot going to work.
(06:40):
And sometimes our redesigned ideas, I we're so focused on getting through the agenda ordoing the exercise next on the list that we miss the moment that's happening right here,
right now.
So it's yes confirmation of that and in fact one of our diploma grads from the first evercohort Claire Sebastian Fox now Dr.
(07:07):
Seb Fox ah in his PhD research he was researching what has the greatest impact in teamcoaching and discovered the same thing it's through the well-held process of emergence so
there's more voices now.
exploring and joining us in this.
(07:29):
Which is exactly, of course, isn't it?
What happens in one-to-one coaching in the emergent?
I mean, it's exactly the same and different.
What I love about your work, Georgina, is how deep you've gone and how you surroundyourselves with people going deep so that when you share, you share from the wisdom of
(07:53):
practice and
When you look at the plethora of stuff out there.
either in the one-to-one space or in the team coaching space.
Finding the wisdom is a really important thing, I think, for coaches who are going to doany kind of development.
(08:13):
I agree.
mean, I guess these days anybody can put in chat GPT, give me a two day process forcoaching a team or something like that.
And I probably get a informed response based on books and stuff that's out there.
You know, you could get a
(08:35):
a workshop design for you in 30 seconds, I guess.
But the wisdom comes from being able to work with where the energy's at in the moment andwhat the system of the team is trying to communicate with us in this moment.
And that's beyond something that could be known to me before I'm in the room, let alone tochat GPT or uh to any book or process.
(09:04):
So a lot of our work is really about inner development.
You know, the best team coaches in my view, not just a one-off course, but a regularpractice is looking after our own inner space so that we can unhook ourselves from the
(09:26):
triggers, the worry, the need to overperform, all the stuff that has us agitated andworking too hard or...
uh in your head so that we can be present with the moment and choose in an intentional wayhow to intervene.
Hmm.
because it's, yeah, I love your description.
(09:48):
It's, we're the vessel.
Almost, aren't we?
Yes.
Yes.
And as you said, like with one-to-one coaching, it's a very similar thing about whatprepares you to be in presence for one-to-one coaching.
Simple things like cutting off all distractions.
(10:08):
But what prepares you to be present coaching a team?
How's some differences?
Because I find that many coaches feel greater pressure to perform.
in supervision are constantly saying to me, you know, I feel this need to add value.
I want to do a good job.
I want this to be successful.
(10:31):
And these, these wants are really well intentioned and wanting to be of service and canget in the way.
Cause ultimately it's the, it's the team's work to do just as in one-to-one coaching, it'sthe client's work to do.
So it's complex.
ah And yet actually
Once you get it, Claire, the interesting thing is it's remarkably and beautifully simple.
(10:55):
There's an artful simplicity to it.
And that's why I call my book Mastering the Art of Team Coaching, because it's an ongoingpractice of mastering.
I'm using the word artful now instead of mastery.
And how come?
What's brought that up for you?
(11:17):
I think partly because in the coaching space, mastery is a thing to attain.
We must get our master certified coach.
We must get our master credential.
We must do this.
Whereas the artfulness is much more for me, much more fluid and emergent and having thecapacity to dance in the space, I guess you could say.
(11:45):
Yes, exactly.
And that's very scary, I think, for a new coach.
Gosh, I remember, Claire, my first ever corporate coaching session.
So I'd done a load of uh freebies.
Thomas, do remember Thomas Leonard?
Yeah, dear Thomas Leonard, who was often thought I was one of the grandfathers ofcoaching, bit like John Whitmore.
(12:10):
Thomas said to me, this was more than 30 years ago, he said,
He said, just go out and get your first hundred clients, Georgina, even if you have to paythem to let you coach them.
So I'd done everything I could do to get my practice in.
got my first corporate client and I'd done mad things like, you know, looked at the listof a hundred great questions you could ask.
(12:34):
What's the magic question?
I was so nervous about adding value and what if I didn't see to be added value and
What if I ran out of things to think about or say?
There's so much road noise going on, so I have huge empathy for anyone starting out,because I've experienced so much of that myself.
Getting to the place where you can clear out that noise, like white noise on a radiostation, is such a beautiful and serene place.
(13:05):
We had five reams of paper for our handouts.
Do remember for coach university?
It was really thick.
yes, exactly,
And you had to go in your head to the page.
I thought this was somebody who was going to talk about this, but they're going to talkabout that.
But I read this page.
And I haven't read that page.
Yeah.
(13:25):
And now with team coaching, with so many schools, almost every one-to-one coach trainingschool is thinking about developing a team coach training program because you've got a
load of alumni there who are very loyal to the school who go, hey, train me in teamcoaching.
So I understand it makes commercial sense, but it's not easy for the faculty to gear upand get trained to deliver something.
(13:51):
So a lot of the courses on offer are
Here's a pre-designed workshop.
Here's an assessment tool so you can diagnose the team, you can find the gaps and thenhere's some modules to plug the gaps.
Useful stuff, it'll get you so far.
But what I want to say to people is be aware, be really aware that there's so much morelearning to do to go beyond that and that really begins with self.
(14:22):
So I'm curious, Claire, I'm sure this comes up for you as well in the training that you doaround the artfulness and presence.
How do you find you support coaches in getting in into that space inside themselves?
My favourite piece of development is improv training.
(14:46):
adults tell me about that.
You and your improv trainer.
Yeah.
Because the things that you're talking about, I don't think you can learn from a book.
Yes.
I think you can learn a lot from a book and I think you can learn a lot from a course andyou can learn a lot from practicing.
(15:06):
But moving from practicing to being in the room with somebody who doesn't know what you'redoing together and isn't necessarily brought into doing the work is such a huge challenge.
So I think all the stuff around courage, presence, being able to step in when you know youneed to step in but you don't know what to say but you do know you need to step in.
(15:31):
All of those things can be beautifully tried out in a safe and fun space of improv.
And our observation is that when coaches do that, they are much more confident to step inin the real world.
Inn the last two or three days, I've listened to a number of recordings for coaches whowere going for their MCC.
(15:56):
I tell them they're on a journey to become an artful coach and we'll get them recordingsfor their MCC on the journey at some point.
But what was fascinating with one yesterday actually was she said, I thought the personwasn't thinking and they were just telling me a lot of stuff.
And I said, well, let's just listen.
(16:18):
And through this person, 10 minutes they spoke for, oh lots and lots of talking.
The coach,
made noises at various moments during this thing and each of those noises was a momentwhen actually if they'd had the confidence they'd have then stepped in with something and
(16:41):
it was beautiful because I was able to say to her you've got your timing bang on now it'sthe work the work now is the courage to step in and she said but I don't know what to do
and I said no that's the point
Beautiful.
So you brought to life there what you experience in the room with improvisation and thatfeeling of one foot on the accelerator and the other even more firmly on the brake, isn't
(17:09):
it?
It's like that.
You're going, I've got, I know there's something coming up for me.
but I've got my foot in the brake.
that seems to be, and maybe another PhD student will research this at some point, Claire,but it seems to be an amplified phenomena with team coaches.
(17:30):
So uh what people do is they reach for the facilitators guide and the exercise, what's thenext step in the approach?
Because that's almost like,
clutching onto some guard rails gives that feeling of safety.
What are we going to do now, even if it's confusing or complicated?
(17:54):
See, one of the things that when I look at stuff written about team coaching out therethat's so very populated with models is it puts the coach into a position of needing to
become an expert or at least believing they need to become an expert and to have a load of
analytical stuff about what makes a great team, what makes a team highly effective, whatthey should be doing, how they should think, the team design, et cetera, et cetera.
(18:25):
And in all of that, we miss the fact that right in front of us is a living system thatalready has beauty and grace, even if it has bad behaviors and some difficult stuff going
on.
But there's beauty and grace in there.
just in the sheer fact that they call themselves a team and they get into a room virtuallyor in person together and they've been doing that repeatedly for some time.
(18:54):
I mean that's amazing in and of itself and then you see the team interact and even if onfirst sight it looks ineffective you can see there's some beauty within how they are
encountering each other.
And so part of our work is looking first to see the team in its wonderment and to see whatis supporting it and being a team.
(19:27):
without that thought, without that idea being sewn in your head that to be a livingsystem, there's something that's supporting the fabric of those connections.
Otherwise there'd just be, I don't know, like a bunch of dots with no line between them.
Training your eyes and look in wonder for that is very different from running anassessment tool and looking for the gaps.
(19:52):
And what I find when many coaches get in the room to start working, we might give them asimulation and they watch a team or live role play of a team and instantly their minds are
looking to critique what's not working here?
What would I like to see that should be better or different?
(20:14):
So if you take those two sort of polarities of, let's call it function and dysfunction tomake it rather extreme polarity, we might be out of awareness just looking for dysfunction
so we can add value.
Because if we point out the gaps, then we can close those gaps.
And we could, hey, we could even design a module around trust or get out that book,Covey's Speed of Trust or something like that.
(20:43):
by the Covey workshop on speed of trust and go and run that.
It's a fundamentally different approach to helping the team become aware of what reallysupports them, what brings them aliveness, what's already functioning, and then to become
aware of oh what's going into the shadow because of that.
(21:06):
So I'll give you an example.
So a team I was working with fairly recently, they're very brilliant engineers.
my goodness, their capacity to think is out of this, quite daunting.
I felt intimidated getting in the room with them because the IQ through the roof and thenyou've got that compound effect of being in the whole team of people like that.
(21:33):
uh Watching this team interact and the conversation is like,
We talk around a subject, they bring a subject in, they talk around the subject.
Somebody latches on to a piece of data and then collectively they go down a well-informedand highly educated rabbit hole, all sharing their knowledge about this one thread until
(21:57):
really the strongest player in terms of information wins or wins the points for the day orwins the conversation for the day.
So what we want to keep is their capacity to use their intellect.
Nobody wants to lose that.
(22:18):
What was in the shadow for them was really their capacity to connect that betweenthemselves.
It was more like a competitive sport than let's build on each other's ideas.
Let's take this forward.
Let's really listen deeply to each other.
Let's make sure
(22:38):
Each person's fully heard so we can extract the value from each thinker.
Simple idea, complex inaction.
And we want to keep both.
It's not a gap analysis.
You get that data just from being with the team in their natural habitat and seeing howthat team functions in their natural habitat.
(23:06):
It's a bit like going out into the jungle and
and being with the gorillas or something like that.
You're looking for their natural patterns.
You have spoken so many times in last few minutes about looking.
Yes.
Yeah.
I think that's the same in one-to-one.
And when we're looking in the book or the manual or the we're not seeing what's in frontof us.
(23:32):
One of the principles in improv is if you don't know what to do, look at the person infront of you.
Ah, and what are you looking for in the person in front of you Claire?
You don't know.
No idea.
But you're looking because you will find your next move from looking at the person who'swith you.
(23:55):
And that's what you're describing.
And in that looking, there's so much data.
It's not just the body language, um which is a lot of data in itself, especially in theteam.
Inn a team, there's the interactional patterns.
(24:15):
So one thing we teach ah is coaches you can track, you can look or listen for the content.
And many people who come into team coaching have a skillful facilitators, and they'reextremely good at listening.
and capturing all the threads of content so they can summarize that back.
(24:38):
So going beyond that, going one layer deeper, how do we observe, track, notice, process,which is how what's occurring in front of us is occurring.
What's the interactional dance that's here?
(25:00):
And what does that dance feel like?
So the third layer is the effective quality of that.
So allowing myself to be impacted by the team.
So what does it feel like being with this team as this dance is playing out?
And then another layer below that that isn't visible, so we can't access it just byobservation, are the dynamics.
(25:27):
Because the dynamics are always
You imagine like a volcano in an ocean, volcanic island.
Everything that's under the water, which may have deep roots like an iceberg.
That's what we're talking about as the dynamics unseen, but felt, they disturb.
(25:49):
They can even eat up and create an eruption like a volcano.
It's felt.
uh
Occasionally what bubbles up becomes visible, turns into behaviours or some kind of dramaplaying out.
But we feel it long before then.
So learning to tune in and give voice to and to make what's invisible visible.
(26:14):
And I think this is the artful way of a team coach is finding a way to give voice to makevisible what's invisible.
to name what's unnamed, to speak what the team have up until now found no words to speak.
(26:36):
And that's our own, comes through our own relationship with ourselves.
And that's uncomfortable.
and it's uncomfortable and can invite our inner dialogue of, that's just me.
This isn't about me.
It's about them and all that we disown about data that's affected, how we're beingaffected and realizing that that is data and being willing to act on that, which is...
(27:12):
to me like the improv part, it's, yeah, comes through the exchange, it's between.
And there's an intimacy in the dance that you're describing, isn't there, between the teamcoach and the team that requires the team coach to be looking.
(27:34):
to be looking and to be um showing up in a way, in their way of being, that creates asupportive container.
I really believe we need to aim for building a supportive container before we shift to anyform of provocation.
(28:00):
Ultimately, we're usually brought in to disturb.
because usually there's some agenda for change.
I say usually, I'm not sure I've ever been brought in where there's no agenda for change.
It might just be that that agenda is really not clear what they're wanting.
But my assumption is if I'm brought in and investing the time and the money, there's someagenda for change.
(28:27):
Therefore they want some disturbance, but for us human beings to risk.
the vulnerability or exposure of that disturbance.
We need a lot of safety and support.
So again, sometimes I see coaches going in to look and be present, but imagine they'redoing it like, I don't know, like a doctor in a white jacket with a clipboard and a pair
(29:03):
of glasses and a frown.
peeking up over the clipboard.
No, it shuts the team down.
And what you see is the team survival mode come out.
So the adaptive behaviors or resistance, as we call it, which is interrupting their owncontact with awareness.
(29:31):
Because they don't feel safe enough for that awareness to be seen.
And that's a lot about how we show up.
Yeah, that's vulnerability, isn't it?
Which means that we need to not know what we're going to do.
We need that the not knowing and the vulnerability, I think, come together.
And so similarly and differently in team coaching and one on
(29:52):
I think it goes a bit beyond that as well in um this idea that comes from Gish Dalt, whichI love, which is presence, real presence is about empathic responsiveness.
So sometimes when you watch a team interact, imagine you're on the sidelines or on abalcony, not with the team.
(30:20):
and you watch a team interact, one person says something and they may be met by pokerfaces.
or top of the head.
um or looking out the window, filling on my phone.
(30:43):
Now that's not just about it stifles thinking, it's that there's no contact.
And without contact with other, without contact with ourself or without contact withwhat's wanting to emerge, no coachable work is happening.
(31:04):
There's no data available to the system for us to work with.
So, so that empathic responsiveness is really important.
And sometimes coaches aren't aware of that.
They've not had the chance to think about that.
So they show up in this sort of, I think running a mantra of it.
(31:27):
Not, it's not about me.
And therefore one team member says something.
The coach keeps a poker face.
They track the content and write down the content of what someone said so I can summarizeit later.
Then they wait for them or invite the next person to speak.
I'm not, I can't respond to that.
(31:50):
And so it goes on where the coach is out of awareness, has not managed to build a contactfull, empathic, responsive space that builds a container.
Now, obviously we want to get to a place
where team members do that for themselves, where they're making the container, wherethey're in contact with each other.
(32:15):
That's the ultimate goal.
But many are unlikely to be there at the start.
So we need to be an anchor to begin with and build that container, hold that space tostart with.
So these are simple ideas and harder if you're
(32:36):
course running, where are we on the time, what's the next bit on the exercise, I've got toteach this model.
It's very hard to remember that, the importance of container building and empathicresponsiveness and the effective quality of presence.
which is all in one on one too, isn't it?
How interesting.
(32:57):
So Georgina, you've got a second edition of your book.
I do.
So I know lots of our listeners have bought the first edition.
What's different about the second edition?
Oh, thank you for asking Claire.
You know, had a quite a few months of negotiating with myself because I was feeling theurge to write a second book, which was much more purely about working emergently.
(33:30):
Because my first book, I wanted to meet coaches where they're at, which is give me thebasics, tell me what a team coaching journey might look like and what some of the
different
interventions along that journey might be and the competencies and so it's foundational.
But I also wanted to not create the illusion that that's enough, that working in acontactful, presentful, emergent way is important and I think I went so far with that in
(34:02):
the first book.
um
But I felt it needed more.
It needed to go further with that before writing a specific book on working emergently.
To help people understand, I guess, the essential balance between structure and emergence,how we need a holding container or a set of containers like a team coaching journey.
(34:29):
The client needs some sense of what's the journey look like that we're going to be goingon.
and what might those stages be and what's your approach to want to get into therelationship with you and to take the risk of being vulnerable, but to get into the more
(34:50):
impactful work we need to work So I wanted to bring that more clearly through and alsothrough our teaching in our diploma programme, some of the ideas expressed in the first
book.
I hadn't really written enough into, here's how.
(35:10):
And for example, what I talked with you about before about uh looking or observing thatyou you can process content dynamics levels as well as impact on self.
What does that really look like?
um Similarly with, if you're intervening emergently, how do you intervene?
(35:34):
at different levels of the system and what does that look like as an intervention?
And then I've put in more vignettes to try and bring it to life from stories, compilationsof stories really taken from so many different teams I've worked with uh to take it off
the page, hopefully, in a way that helps people picture an experience a bit better.
(36:00):
mean, as you say, can't,
only get so far with a book, at some point you really need to get into the Roman ahexperiment and practice and learn with practitioners.
But that was the idea behind it.
Sounds like our listeners who've got your book should be giving it away and buying thesecond edition.
(36:21):
I think that's a great idea.
Also, whether you bought the second book or not, you can go to our website and download awork accompanying workbook.
It'll make more sense if you've got the second edition because there's supportingmaterials for each chapter, but also a whole reflective um practice area.
(36:45):
So for example, Imagine Claire building your own
Team Coaching Manifesto, what would you say to clients perhaps about what your philosophyis of team coaching, how you think change happens, how you show up, what they can expect,
what you do, what you don't do?
(37:06):
So there's little workbook exercises for that and examples, and it's about 80 pages long,just the downloadable workbook.
So any listener can access that now, even if they've bought the book or not.
So we'll put a link to the book in the show notes.
We'll put a link to your website in the show notes.
And if people want to talk to you Georgina, how do they make contact?
(37:31):
They can email me at Georgina at teamcoachingstudio.com.
So please put that in as well if you're up for that Claire.
You can connect with me on LinkedIn.
We have a beautiful community of team coaches worldwide.
It's called the TCS Team Coaching Community where every month we run arena practicesessions inspired by Bernie Brown's, know, the courage of getting into the arena.
(37:59):
Nice!
the arena and practice and practice emergently.
We have team coaching clinics, which is a bit like peer supervision every month.
We're just about to start a inner development series in September, where my businesspartner, Alad De Jong, and I will be running a series of exploration into the IDG and the
(38:21):
development goals and what that means for team coaches.
And we also on our website, we have a free e-learning course.
that is really significant.
It's about 12 hours of learning called Team Coaching Fundamentals for anyone who's justwanting to get started, but does a bit more, then they're welcome to sign up for that as
(38:43):
well.
Fabulous.
All those resources, lovely listeners.
Yes, plenty.
Georgina, it's so lovely to have caught up with you a little bit.
ah
you for inviting me here today?
Well, pleasure.
Thank you for coming and everyone, thank you for listening and we'll be back next weekwith another episode.
Bye.
(39:04):
Bye bye.
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