August 20, 2025 • 34 mins
In this episode of The Coaching Inn, host Claire Pedrick sits down with Rachel Morris to explore the insights and experiences that led to her book, Working Mother. Rachel shares her journey from a career in learning and development to becoming a coach and author. Discover how she navigated the challenges of balancing a thriving career with motherhood, and the patterns she observed in her coaching practice that inspired her book. Rachel talks about the importance of building a support network and embracing the imperfections of both work and parenting.
If you're a working parent or know someone who is, don't miss this insightful conversation. Listen to the full episode and share it with friends who might benefit from Rachel's wisdom. Or buy them the book! It’s currently 99p/ 99c on Kindle
Contact:
- Contact Rachel through Linked In
- Contact Claire by emailing info@3dcoaching.com or check out our Substack where you can talk with other listeners.
Further Information:
- Subscribe or follow The Coaching Inn on your podcast platform or our YouTube Channel to hear or see new episodes as they drop.
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Coming Up:
- Claire will be talking to Tatjana Hartung about The Human Greenhouse
Keywords:
Working Mother, Coaching Journey, Leadership Development, Parental Transition, Maternal Transition, Female Leaders, Work-Life Balance, Career Coaching, Self-Employed Mothers, Maternity Coaching, Parental Coaching, Work Identity, Personal Development, Emotional Patterns, Overwhelm Management, Support Network, Work-Life Integration, Professional Growth, Parenting Challenges
We love having a variety of guests join us! Please remember that inviting someone to participate does not mean we necessarily endorse their views or opinions. We believe in open conversation and sharing different perspectives.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:13):
Hello and welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn.
I'm your host, Claire Pedrick, and today I'm in conversation with Rachel Morris about herbook, Working Mother.
Do share this episode if you love it.
I'm sure you know somebody else who'd really like to listen to it and do follow orsubscribe on your podcast platform to get every episode as it downloads.
(00:39):
Rachel, hello.
Good morning Claire, how are you?
I'm really good, thank you.
And what delight it is to see you.
Nice to see you Claire, nice to see you.
I'm looking forward to this chat.
Well, we're going to talk about your book.
I want to start though by finding out about your coaching journey.
What got you into coaching, Rachel?
(01:00):
So I started my career really early on in learning and development.
So that was kind of my first route into things.
And at the time I was part of a learning and development team where um
We were looking after management development in one of the big luxury retailers here inLondon and, you know, coaching, training, facilitating, mediating were all part of your
(01:24):
toolkit.
They were all kind of part of what you did.
And that was in the late 90s, early noughties.
And then back in 2004, I set up a business because...
just kind of felt that there was a way that we could support people be more of themselves.
know, luxury retail is a beautiful environment, but it's sometimes we can lose the person,we can lose the thing that makes that person unique in the process of making everything so
(01:50):
great.
I used to sit there with a colleague and think, how can we help people to be more ofthemselves as opposed to lose something about themselves?
And so we said, naive, I was 30.
So it was like, oh, how hard can this be?
Come on, let's set up a business that enables people to be more of themselves.
So we set up a company called Motion Learning, which we delivered leadership development,so programs and coaching.
(02:19):
and over the 21 years that it is now, we slowly took all other activity out of thebusiness and transformed totally into a coaching company.
So now, over those 21 years,
we transform purely towards coaching.
So group coaching, team coaching, individual coaching, because for me that's that essenceof where we can help a person to really tap into being more of themselves.
(02:44):
What's in all that imperfection and using it and being your brilliant self.
So that's where it started.
It started with the idea, I think, that still...
guides everything we do today and I say never take me out my practice room because Clairewe're practitioners in my mind and I'm never happier than when I'm right in front of a
person right there in that moment with a person.
(03:08):
So that was my coaching journey but it's been my whole career so I never I never want itto stop I never want it to not be a part of what I do.
That's really unusual isn't it because it's also been my whole career apart from two yearsat beginning.
it?
It is quite unusual and particularly because, I don't know your view on this Claire, butback then, know, coaching wasn't really a thing.
(03:30):
You you left and you were looking at careers and it's like, well, you could be a therapistor you could be a this or you could be a that, but coach wasn't an option, you know, and
I...
oh
I really am so pleased to it's becoming more of an option and certainly when my kids arechoosing options for careers and things, I hope that it's something that's put to them,
it's something that you can choose to make your career in.
(03:53):
I think it will.
Yeah, I was reading a book on holiday.
I think I was reading.
Yeah, I did.
I think it was The Old Ways, which was recommended to me by Naomi Ward, who's been a gueston the podcast.
It's fabulous book, but it talked about it takes 100 years for a river to change where itflows.
(04:20):
And I remember sitting in the Institute of Engineering.
off Parliament Square when I was 25 listening to a talk about international developmentand one of the things was that people were very averse to the word third world and they
(04:42):
said it will take a generation and more for this to flush out of the system and it willtake a generation and more for people to understand that coaching is a profession it's the
same thing that
the change happens, but actually that becoming a normal part of the culture is well, ageneration to a hundred years.
(05:03):
It's really interesting and I think there's also as professionals on the coaching side ofit we've got a responsibility in that because I think of us as you know it's like you know
uh a brilliant craftsman will spend time in their workshop carving and shaving the cornerof the table and if I do it this way if I just do it there or if I use that type of
material or not you know and I look at how not only our profession has developed in the 20plus years you know but also how
(05:32):
I am developing within my profession and helping create that profession.
I don't know about you, Claire, but I often speak to more newly qualified coaches andthey'll say, so what do I need to be doing?
It's like getting practice, getting your workshop.
Get in the workshop.
That's where the work is done.
(05:52):
That's where the magic happens.
Gosh, it's interesting.
Are we lucky then to have been part of it from that stage to see the transformation duringthe course of our careers?
So far, because we've obviously got a long time to go.
You're only the second person I've ever met who's done it from the get-go.
It's very rare, isn't it?
(06:14):
It is very rare.
And I was on a CPD training, a kind of event recently, and there was something reallybeautiful because in the room of, there were maybe eight of us in there.
almost everybody had got 10 or 15 years experience as a minimum in there Claire, a minimumin there and it it led to a really really rich kind of experience and it was it was lovely
(06:42):
it was lovely to hear that quality of experience yeah.
yeah it's lovely so along the way you had two children
And they were like buses, Claire, because one didn't come along for ages, and then thesecond one came along just 14 months after the first one.
(07:03):
I'd say, Claire, I had my first boy in 2012.
And because I'm self-employed,
I went back to work after six weeks.
People say, ooh, that was ambitious.
And it's like, actually, I think it was probably more essential than anything else.
So I went back to work after six weeks.
And then five months after he was born, I found out I was pregnant again.
(07:26):
So I found myself in this very unexpected situation where I was working.
self-employed, pregnant again, mother of a small baby.
And it was a, it felt like everything in life had just collided to be perfectly honest.
felt like this, like beautiful, wanted implosion of stuff.
(07:52):
how it felt.
Yes, sounds like all the things you wanted all at the same time.
you know that be careful what you wish for and then you think I can't now be ungratefulfor what I've got but it's really hard it felt like that yeah and I think what it did for
me Claire was I I hope you can hear from what we've just been saying but I love my work
(08:19):
I really do.
love my work.
don't want to don't, you know, the sense for me of whatever my brain is going to work andI can still do my job well.
I don't want to ever stop working.
So this, this drive to work as a mother for me was really strong.
I wanted to be a great mother, but I also wanted to be really good at my work still too.
And for me, there was a pull.
(08:44):
towards being able to do both of those things in the most effective way I could.
And that doesn't mean perfect.
I only stretch the imagination, but in the best way that I could.
yeah, I felt really strongly that my work identity remained incredibly important duringthat period of time to me, to me.
(09:06):
But I've got this extra really, really important identity bolted on as well, which is oneI'd wanted for a very long time.
So it was like then it was suddenly it was like the combination of those two things, whichcould even be represented by dressing differently.
When I was the work me, I was dressing in one way.
When I was the mom with a very young baby pregnant again me, I was dressing in a slightlydifferent way.
(09:30):
It was like, who am I today?
How do I speak?
Where do I walk?
What do I do?
And it was a fascinating time actually, and remains a fascinating time now that they aremoving into teenage years to look at how you bring those two worlds that seem
incompatible, how you can bring them together in a way that works for you.
(09:51):
Yeah, and your unit.
It's interesting.
It wasn't easy.
None of it was easy.
But then, don't think good stuff is often, is it?
Yeah, I didn't start my business till my second child was three months old.
Just wait until you've got a three month old baby and then do the business.
(10:15):
I'd been employed as a coach before that in an organisation but I just couldn't afford togo back to being employed with two children in London in those days when there was no
benefits for child, you know, were no concessions on childcare so yeah.
it's a, it is a...
(10:35):
huge dilemma and there are people now doing super interesting work around how that impactsparticularly working women, the people that I'm thinking of here say working mothers, but
particularly how that impacts working mothers at pensionable in inverted commas age, solater in life, so how that hits at that period of time is a lasting hit that kind of goes
(11:01):
on for significant periods of time.
It's such an important time and there is no way of getting it right.
There is no one way but actually I do believe there are ways that it can be better for theindividual herself in those moments but we have to make big choices.
(11:22):
We have to make big choices whether it's setting up a business three months in or whetherit's you know going back to work after six weeks.
I I can't wait, can't wait to do that.
Of I didn't.
I just said actually it's really important I do that.
So when did the book start birthing itself?
uh That's a great phrase.
(11:45):
So around that time, Claire, so it had definitely been in progress earlier on because I'dworked with...
working parents, particularly working women ended up being on my list.
So was working with a lot of female leaders.
One of my supervisors always says, um you know, what does your client say about you,Rachel?
(12:06):
What does it tell us about your needs?
You know, so I'd always found that I got quite a weighted female leadership list.
I don't think it was a conscious thing, but we could explore that at another time.
And...
So I'd worked with female leaders, particularly senior female leaders who had gone throughperiods of becoming parents during the course of the time, working with them and kind of,
(12:33):
you know, so that had kind of been happening.
But then back in 2013, I was approached by one of our national broadcasters here in the UKand they said, will you help us pilot maternity coaching?
Oh.
And back in 2013, you know, you'll know, it wasn't, it wasn't a thing.
(12:53):
I mean, it's still parental transition coaching now is still like, what?
So it really wasn't a thing.
And so it was quite interesting because they were saying, let's very specifically pilot aprogram that looks at our female population and let's look at this time when they go off
to have children, let's see if we can help them with it.
So it kind of started then and
(13:15):
Because I was in that situation myself, I was really attracted to it.
It was like, okay, so this is really interesting.
Let's see what's going on.
So over the 10 years from the book arriving, yeah, 10 year gestation period, that's good.
uh Over the 10 years from the book arriving, I just worked more and more and more in thatspace, more in the space of...
(13:42):
uh
certainly the maternal transition, looking at the birth mother very specifically becauseof the very significant kind of phases that she goes through.
And Clara started to see some patterns and I think the privilege we have in the coachingroom is that we have the opportunity, we're working with people at such incredible
(14:05):
moments, that we have that opportunity across conversation and conversation andconversation to see if there are patterns.
Yeah.
and I didn't go out to look for them at all, Claire.
just, kind of, overwhelm was the one that got me first, because unsurprisingly, overwhelmpresents itself quite a lot in those kind of situations.
And...
(14:27):
I was like, oh, this is quite interesting, because this seems to hit at that particulartime.
Okay, well, is there anything common in the timing in which that hits?
know, and kind of so I started to see these patterns, Claire, and I spent that 10 yearslooking at the patterns, checking the patterns, keeping a track of them, seeing what
emotions particularly, because there are data, hey, so what emotions are presenting atdifferent points in time.
(14:52):
I was just curious about it.
And then I started to think, actually, this could be quite helpful.
know, Motion, we've got a coaching team.
And I was thinking, OK, so it helps me to make sure, you know, are the team prepared forwhen this presents itself or how we navigate that with different people?
we, you know, can we help make sure that we're really ready for these things if they startto arise?
(15:12):
And then I started to write it down and started to develop a model that helped me to seewhat I felt I understood.
So.
That was kind of the initial development of it and it was pure curiosity and it was formedwith a view of saying okay within the maternal transition and then we widened it out to
(15:34):
look at non-birth parents as well so to look at within the wider parental transition.
if we see certain things at different points in time or if we see a need for explorationof boundaries at a certain point in time, let's just make sure that we are totally
prepared, you know, that we've got all our latest thinking on that.
And so that was kind of the start of it, Claire, and that was happening over those 10years from kind of 2013 to 2023.
(16:02):
And then...
a member of your research population, I notice.
m
you know, and it's like, yes, I'm feeling that too.
Exactly.
And you know, it's interesting because I've just started writing down things now that I'vegot children leaving primary school and going into high school.
It's like, oh, so what am I experiencing right now?
(16:23):
Let's start to see.
You know, working mother, the teen years kind of thing.
Yeah, we'll see how that one goes.
Hey, I've got a little bit more thinking to do on that one.
But we um
Yeah, so basically then Claire, what we had was this, or what I had was this great load ofinformation that was really useful and very helpful for the business working with other
(16:48):
businesses in terms of helping clients to understand the parental transition, helping thembrief their line managers on how they can support.
Great stuff, great stuff.
Then I had this big dilemma and big moment where I just thought...
By the minute, this isn't right because people who need to access it can't access it.
Well, the person who needs to access it most, the parents in that transition, andparticularly the working mother who all the data tells us is the most vulnerable, unless
(17:18):
you're very privileged and work in a business that provides coaching.
Unless you're in the business that provides coaching that even thinks that parentalcoaching is a thing, which is rarer.
Again, you're not going to access this work.
And that does not sit with me very well.
So the book was my response to that because I thought if, you know, just under 15 quid,you can buy this for yourself, for a sister, for a daughter, for a friend, for a
(17:50):
colleague, for a direct report.
and say, you know, we're not going to be able to give you the full thing that this is theequivalent, here we go, take it.
And that's why I wrote this for her.
didn't write it for HR audience because I, somebody described it as that kind of, youknow, coaching your pocket kind of principle, but it is, I ask the same questions in here
(18:12):
that I spent 10 years refining in the coaching room, you know, and I...
I don't believe everybody needs a coach, but I believe everybody should be able to accessone if they need one.
And accessibility of coaching is so difficult that this is why this birthed.
(18:33):
So for me, there was a real moral responsibility to put it out there, just in case if ithelps 100 women, then that's great.
That's 100 more who might have been able to access it beforehand.
So yeah.
It was a, it was a, didn't set out to find a book, write a book.
I didn't want to put anything out there that was just adding noise.
(18:58):
I thought if it helps, if it helps the narrative, if it helps influence the narrativepositively in a way that isn't currently being talked about or being influenced, then
actually that's a responsibility.
So that's how the book.
pain here.
But it took a good 10 years.
(19:19):
People say that, you know, it's the book I needed.
we didn't have, sorry this makes me sound really old, we didn't have the internet, or ifthe internet existed I didn't have access to it, we didn't have mobile phones, and if you
wanted information you had to go to the library or ring somebody up and ask them to sendit to you in an envelope, if you could work out where you were going to get it from.
(19:49):
And...
library, you know.
uh
Whilst also going to work.
m
I'll put a chapter in the book.
so some of the principles in the book, the coaching principles, the underpinningprinciples are universal principles.
So again, I wrote them around chapters like fear, boundaries, know, kind of control.
(20:11):
So shared principles.
But there is one in there that I feel is so important and it is about kind of...
true kind of bench, personal development board, you know, who's on your bench, who's gotyour back, who are you reaching out to?
And in my personal and professional opinion, there are so many things in life we canchoose to do by ourselves, but we don't have to do by ourselves.
(20:37):
And this is one of them.
And there are so many incredible...
working parents for sure, my books for her because she's the most vulnerable it seems inthis, know, sitting around tables trying to look like they're navigating it, trying to
look like they've got, trying to look like they're okay.
(20:58):
And you just think actually when you're not okay, who can you really turn to to go, I'mreally, really struggling with this.
And
That's a very intentional action isn't it because your work colleagues get their peersupport after work and your mum friends get their peer support during the working day.
(21:22):
So finding that person, those people is quite an artful thing.
It's so hard and people often say, Claire, you know, I feel like I hide the fact still,still, it used to be louder 10 years ago, but still people say, I feel like I hide the
(21:43):
fact that I'm a parent in the day.
I was talking to an incredible woman and she said, actually I'm at home with the babybecause not very well.
I said, where's the baby?
She's behind the screen.
you know, it's like, and okay, that may have been, that was her choice, but she was hidingthe baby, you know, and going, I really hope she doesn't wake up during this call.
I really hope she doesn't wake up during this call.
(22:04):
And so that hiding that part of life, that part of them during the day.
and hiding the other part of them outside of the working day.
When I went back to work, judgment, Claire, came from the most unexpected places of megoing back to work so early.
(22:24):
And comments like, goodness, I hope your child's going to be okay with you.
like, like, judgment, shocking judgment, and it really felt that I was really goingagainst the grain.
And then one day I came home and my eldest must have been about one and a half, and he waspooping around the kitchen on a pretend car.
(22:48):
and he got like a little bag over his shoulder and he went, hi, he said, I'm the mom, hemust've been older, he was talking too, hi, I'm the mom, he said, I've just got in from
work and I've got some tofu in my bag and I'm gonna make tea now, you know, and it wasjust like, what a cool thing.
And was in that moment I thought, we're fine, we're good, we're so good, this is allright.
(23:10):
oh
But there had been a lot of judgment, a lot of judgment before about what I was doing,because I shouldn't have been choosing to do both of those things.
I had to do both those things.
I needed to earn an income, you know.
But I chose to do both those things as well.
And it came with, yeah, it came with quite a lot of difficult conversations with people.
(23:34):
And that's interesting in relation to having your board or your support team, isn't it?
Because what you're doing is you're looking for the supporting people whilst at the sametime having to really quite actively deal with the detractors.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I found finding people on the support team who could understand both perspectives waschallenging as well because there weren't that many people that had done it, you know, or
(23:58):
one person I knew who had done it and was an incredible support to me but had also been ina position where they've been able to have a full-time nanny.
You know, we weren't, that wasn't how our household was set up.
It ran on two incomes.
needed both our incomes, you know, it kind of, another brilliant support for me who'd gotfour children, but he was the dad, you know, and his wife who had had a great career, lots
(24:21):
of women giving up great careers, had had a great, fantastic legal career beforehand stopsto stay at home with the four children, you know, and those huge challenges of, my husband
at the time was a head teacher
and so incredibly supportive, but just not around during the day.
You can't rely on them in the term time during the day.
(24:43):
was just not, you know, if something kicked off, there was no.
So that, those really deep conversations, even with your supporters about, how do wereally make this work?
Because I am the one that the school has the number for, or I am the one that the doctorhas the number for, or I am the one that sees the.
(25:03):
we've run out of tracksuit bottoms or I am that, know, and it's, I feel, I put stuff in, alot of stuff in the book about,
connection to your sense of self, so whether it's your values, whether it's aboutidentity, whether it's about your motivations, whether it's about your intentions, oh and
(25:24):
a lot about how to really, because they're changing during this period of time, what youthought was important is really being challenged and who you thought you were, you've got
a new job title, don't know if you like it or not, you know, it's like, and even thoughyou wanted it.
and that sense of connecting to yourself so you can then articulate that, know, and by nomeans perfect communicator, but I've studied communication a lot.
(25:50):
I've looked at communication a lot.
I've learned that communication a lot.
And being able to find my voice in that period of time was super difficult, superdifficult.
And again, I felt like I had quite a lot of tools that were there to help me and I stillfound it really challenging.
So it's, think this period of time pulls on so many levels for people.
(26:15):
pulls on a superficial but significant, how on earth does all of this, how do I get to theend of the day in one piece?
And it pulls on that really, really deep sets level of, and why, who, how, and why evengonna get to the end of the day just as me?
(26:37):
I love the title, As We're Talking, because as you were talking just then I was thinking,it's quite binary isn't it?
You're a worker, and whatever the identity, or you're a parent.
And the challenge comes that you are that, but you're kind of not, because you're not onlythat, and you are the other, but you're not because you're kind of other things as well.
(27:01):
And that in between space is a real challenge.
It's a huge challenge and again we were looking at the title, know, the simplicity andcomplexity of this all in one go and I think for me the sense of I wanted so much to have
this title because I'm so proud of both parts of it.
(27:24):
I'm so proud of the work in me and I am so proud of the mother bee but when we put themtogether, blimey.
So Rachel, it's working mother full stop.
Yes.
Yes.
Because that's who I am and will always be.
(27:46):
Now I am that.
It's like, know, no matter what happens in the future, no matter what happens, I willalways be the working mother.
it's a no going back road, isn't it?
You know, and we said earlier, be careful what you wish for, because also sometimes thatroad, even when we're walking down it and even when we want it.
(28:11):
when we realise that there's a no going back on it, can feel that's quite a moment.
And I remember holding my first son when he arrived and my partner had to go probably foran off-stead or something like that, like 48 hours after he was born, if I had to think it
was.
And I remember holding this tiny thing, he was tiny when he was born, which is also partof the self-care chapter in this book, because that was me.
(28:40):
not taking care of myself and taking care of lots of other priorities.
So he was really, really small when he was born.
And I remember holding this thing and just thinking, I've got you forever.
As in, you you are here forever and hopefully here forever.
But you know, it's like, I can't put you some, can't, you don't, you don't go.
This is now it.
(29:02):
Yeah.
This is it.
And what a glorious it is.
things that we don't know.
We don't know what we don't know.
You know, and people ask sometimes, you know, I don't know if you get this clear, butpeople ask, what did you learn about yourself from writing a book?
You know, uh lots for sure.
(29:22):
oh That I like writing to REMs sitting on a sofa in a cafe.
don't know why.
But also, what did I learn?
What am I learning through myself from acquiring this job, this like label or title?
my days, constantly, constantly, constantly.
(29:43):
you know, every single time I think I understand it, they change and therefore I change inresponse to them.
You know, one day one of them said, you're quite good at this mum thing mum.
And I said, well, that's lucky, isn't it?
Because I am just having a go most of the time.
Just having a stab at it and sometimes I'll get it right and often I won't.
(30:06):
to
Yeah, so what's your dream for this book?
In your wildest dreams, what would you like for it?
uh
My dream is em quite gentle, I believe, Claire.
I write about the dream in the book.
(30:28):
I write about it very early on, actually, in the introduction.
I say, you know, I live in London and one day, so I say the tube, right?
But one day I would love to see somebody reading this book.
and I'd love to say to her, I'd love to go up to her, or if it's a line manager, maybe himor a partner, him or a, you know, and I would love to go up to whoever is reading and say,
(30:52):
is it any good?
Is it any good?
And for them to say, oh my God, it's completely helping me right now.
It's changing the way I think or feel right now.
And that's it.
And I recently, haven't quite achieved that yet.
(31:13):
but somebody who I didn't know wrote on LinkedIn, put up a copy of the book and tagged meon LinkedIn and said, em you haven't seen me on the tube yet reading this book.
But she said, have a good look around because if you ever see a person crying happy tearsof relief on the tube, the chances are they've got your book in their hand.
(31:34):
And so it was the loveliest thing, the real loveliest thing to read because
you know, it was just that moment of somebody clearly having read what I'd written, whichis always a very nice thing to hear, but saying, you you haven't seen me, but I am um
doing that.
(31:55):
And it had a picture of her holding this open on the tube, you know?
And so that's my ambition for it.
And I think Claire...
uh
There are lots of things, you know this as a writer as well, but there are lots of thingsabout the writing process is very varied and some of it I've loved and some of it I've
really not loved.
(32:15):
So the finding my voice was really difficult.
I wanted this to be for her.
It needed to be me, Rachel, talking to her in my language, my way.
So the finding the voice was really hard.
The writing the book was totally, totally joyful.
You know, I find the PR bits of writing the book.
quite challenging, you know, but I suppose I do it because the more people I can help knowthat this is out there, you know, and pick up a copy for a friend, for a sister, for a
(32:45):
sibling, for a direct report, as well as for yourself, you know, it's, then that'ssuccess.
That's success.
So just every 100 people that pick it up and see it will tell me that they've seen it.
I just think, that was worth it.
That was really, really worth it.
So you're talking to our lovely listeners in 128 countries.
(33:11):
What would you like?
If there was one thing they could do, what would it be?
The one thing I would suggest you do, if you are in the situation as a working parentnavigating this transition, I would say take it one step at a time and with kindness to
(33:33):
yourself.
That's the one thing for you to do.
Don't worry about everything.
Just go next.
One step at a time and with kindness to yourself.
And if you are listening to this and you are not a working parent,
get a copy and gift it.
But before you gift it, read it.
(33:53):
Because everybody, everybody's got a role to play in this.
Everybody can do something that's gonna help people in this transition.
So Working Mother by Rachel Morris.
Buy it, read it, it.
Buy it, read it, it.
I like that.
Thank you for coming to The Coaching Inn, Rachel.
(34:15):
Oh, thank you for having me.
It's so lovely to chat to you.
Thank you, Claire.
and you and thank you for listening everyone we'll be back next week with another episodebye bye
Hello and welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn.
I'm your host, Claire Pedrick, and today I'm in conversation with Rachel Morris about herbook, Working Mother.
Do share this episode if you love it.
I'm sure you know somebody else who'd really like to listen to it and do follow orsubscribe on your podcast platform to get every episode as it downloads.
(00:39):
Rachel, hello.
Good morning Claire, how are you?
I'm really good, thank you.
And what delight it is to see you.
Nice to see you Claire, nice to see you.
I'm looking forward to this chat.
Well, we're going to talk about your book.
I want to start though by finding out about your coaching journey.
What got you into coaching, Rachel?
(01:00):
So I started my career really early on in learning and development.
So that was kind of my first route into things.
And at the time I was part of a learning and development team where um
We were looking after management development in one of the big luxury retailers here inLondon and, you know, coaching, training, facilitating, mediating were all part of your
(01:24):
toolkit.
They were all kind of part of what you did.
And that was in the late 90s, early noughties.
And then back in 2004, I set up a business because...
just kind of felt that there was a way that we could support people be more of themselves.
know, luxury retail is a beautiful environment, but it's sometimes we can lose the person,we can lose the thing that makes that person unique in the process of making everything so
(01:50):
great.
I used to sit there with a colleague and think, how can we help people to be more ofthemselves as opposed to lose something about themselves?
And so we said, naive, I was 30.
So it was like, oh, how hard can this be?
Come on, let's set up a business that enables people to be more of themselves.
So we set up a company called Motion Learning, which we delivered leadership development,so programs and coaching.
(02:19):
and over the 21 years that it is now, we slowly took all other activity out of thebusiness and transformed totally into a coaching company.
So now, over those 21 years,
we transform purely towards coaching.
So group coaching, team coaching, individual coaching, because for me that's that essenceof where we can help a person to really tap into being more of themselves.
(02:44):
What's in all that imperfection and using it and being your brilliant self.
So that's where it started.
It started with the idea, I think, that still...
guides everything we do today and I say never take me out my practice room because Clairewe're practitioners in my mind and I'm never happier than when I'm right in front of a
person right there in that moment with a person.
(03:08):
So that was my coaching journey but it's been my whole career so I never I never want itto stop I never want it to not be a part of what I do.
That's really unusual isn't it because it's also been my whole career apart from two yearsat beginning.
it?
It is quite unusual and particularly because, I don't know your view on this Claire, butback then, know, coaching wasn't really a thing.
(03:30):
You you left and you were looking at careers and it's like, well, you could be a therapistor you could be a this or you could be a that, but coach wasn't an option, you know, and
I...
oh
I really am so pleased to it's becoming more of an option and certainly when my kids arechoosing options for careers and things, I hope that it's something that's put to them,
it's something that you can choose to make your career in.
(03:53):
I think it will.
Yeah, I was reading a book on holiday.
I think I was reading.
Yeah, I did.
I think it was The Old Ways, which was recommended to me by Naomi Ward, who's been a gueston the podcast.
It's fabulous book, but it talked about it takes 100 years for a river to change where itflows.
(04:20):
And I remember sitting in the Institute of Engineering.
off Parliament Square when I was 25 listening to a talk about international developmentand one of the things was that people were very averse to the word third world and they
(04:42):
said it will take a generation and more for this to flush out of the system and it willtake a generation and more for people to understand that coaching is a profession it's the
same thing that
the change happens, but actually that becoming a normal part of the culture is well, ageneration to a hundred years.
(05:03):
It's really interesting and I think there's also as professionals on the coaching side ofit we've got a responsibility in that because I think of us as you know it's like you know
uh a brilliant craftsman will spend time in their workshop carving and shaving the cornerof the table and if I do it this way if I just do it there or if I use that type of
material or not you know and I look at how not only our profession has developed in the 20plus years you know but also how
(05:32):
I am developing within my profession and helping create that profession.
I don't know about you, Claire, but I often speak to more newly qualified coaches andthey'll say, so what do I need to be doing?
It's like getting practice, getting your workshop.
Get in the workshop.
That's where the work is done.
(05:52):
That's where the magic happens.
Gosh, it's interesting.
Are we lucky then to have been part of it from that stage to see the transformation duringthe course of our careers?
So far, because we've obviously got a long time to go.
You're only the second person I've ever met who's done it from the get-go.
It's very rare, isn't it?
(06:14):
It is very rare.
And I was on a CPD training, a kind of event recently, and there was something reallybeautiful because in the room of, there were maybe eight of us in there.
almost everybody had got 10 or 15 years experience as a minimum in there Claire, a minimumin there and it it led to a really really rich kind of experience and it was it was lovely
(06:42):
it was lovely to hear that quality of experience yeah.
yeah it's lovely so along the way you had two children
And they were like buses, Claire, because one didn't come along for ages, and then thesecond one came along just 14 months after the first one.
(07:03):
I'd say, Claire, I had my first boy in 2012.
And because I'm self-employed,
I went back to work after six weeks.
People say, ooh, that was ambitious.
And it's like, actually, I think it was probably more essential than anything else.
So I went back to work after six weeks.
And then five months after he was born, I found out I was pregnant again.
(07:26):
So I found myself in this very unexpected situation where I was working.
self-employed, pregnant again, mother of a small baby.
And it was a, it felt like everything in life had just collided to be perfectly honest.
felt like this, like beautiful, wanted implosion of stuff.
(07:52):
how it felt.
Yes, sounds like all the things you wanted all at the same time.
you know that be careful what you wish for and then you think I can't now be ungratefulfor what I've got but it's really hard it felt like that yeah and I think what it did for
me Claire was I I hope you can hear from what we've just been saying but I love my work
(08:19):
I really do.
love my work.
don't want to don't, you know, the sense for me of whatever my brain is going to work andI can still do my job well.
I don't want to ever stop working.
So this, this drive to work as a mother for me was really strong.
I wanted to be a great mother, but I also wanted to be really good at my work still too.
And for me, there was a pull.
(08:44):
towards being able to do both of those things in the most effective way I could.
And that doesn't mean perfect.
I only stretch the imagination, but in the best way that I could.
yeah, I felt really strongly that my work identity remained incredibly important duringthat period of time to me, to me.
(09:06):
But I've got this extra really, really important identity bolted on as well, which is oneI'd wanted for a very long time.
So it was like then it was suddenly it was like the combination of those two things, whichcould even be represented by dressing differently.
When I was the work me, I was dressing in one way.
When I was the mom with a very young baby pregnant again me, I was dressing in a slightlydifferent way.
(09:30):
It was like, who am I today?
How do I speak?
Where do I walk?
What do I do?
And it was a fascinating time actually, and remains a fascinating time now that they aremoving into teenage years to look at how you bring those two worlds that seem
incompatible, how you can bring them together in a way that works for you.
(09:51):
Yeah, and your unit.
It's interesting.
It wasn't easy.
None of it was easy.
But then, don't think good stuff is often, is it?
Yeah, I didn't start my business till my second child was three months old.
Just wait until you've got a three month old baby and then do the business.
(10:15):
I'd been employed as a coach before that in an organisation but I just couldn't afford togo back to being employed with two children in London in those days when there was no
benefits for child, you know, were no concessions on childcare so yeah.
it's a, it is a...
(10:35):
huge dilemma and there are people now doing super interesting work around how that impactsparticularly working women, the people that I'm thinking of here say working mothers, but
particularly how that impacts working mothers at pensionable in inverted commas age, solater in life, so how that hits at that period of time is a lasting hit that kind of goes
(11:01):
on for significant periods of time.
It's such an important time and there is no way of getting it right.
There is no one way but actually I do believe there are ways that it can be better for theindividual herself in those moments but we have to make big choices.
(11:22):
We have to make big choices whether it's setting up a business three months in or whetherit's you know going back to work after six weeks.
I I can't wait, can't wait to do that.
Of I didn't.
I just said actually it's really important I do that.
So when did the book start birthing itself?
uh That's a great phrase.
(11:45):
So around that time, Claire, so it had definitely been in progress earlier on because I'dworked with...
working parents, particularly working women ended up being on my list.
So was working with a lot of female leaders.
One of my supervisors always says, um you know, what does your client say about you,Rachel?
(12:06):
What does it tell us about your needs?
You know, so I'd always found that I got quite a weighted female leadership list.
I don't think it was a conscious thing, but we could explore that at another time.
And...
So I'd worked with female leaders, particularly senior female leaders who had gone throughperiods of becoming parents during the course of the time, working with them and kind of,
(12:33):
you know, so that had kind of been happening.
But then back in 2013, I was approached by one of our national broadcasters here in the UKand they said, will you help us pilot maternity coaching?
Oh.
And back in 2013, you know, you'll know, it wasn't, it wasn't a thing.
(12:53):
I mean, it's still parental transition coaching now is still like, what?
So it really wasn't a thing.
And so it was quite interesting because they were saying, let's very specifically pilot aprogram that looks at our female population and let's look at this time when they go off
to have children, let's see if we can help them with it.
So it kind of started then and
(13:15):
Because I was in that situation myself, I was really attracted to it.
It was like, okay, so this is really interesting.
Let's see what's going on.
So over the 10 years from the book arriving, yeah, 10 year gestation period, that's good.
uh Over the 10 years from the book arriving, I just worked more and more and more in thatspace, more in the space of...
(13:42):
uh
certainly the maternal transition, looking at the birth mother very specifically becauseof the very significant kind of phases that she goes through.
And Clara started to see some patterns and I think the privilege we have in the coachingroom is that we have the opportunity, we're working with people at such incredible
(14:05):
moments, that we have that opportunity across conversation and conversation andconversation to see if there are patterns.
Yeah.
and I didn't go out to look for them at all, Claire.
just, kind of, overwhelm was the one that got me first, because unsurprisingly, overwhelmpresents itself quite a lot in those kind of situations.
And...
(14:27):
I was like, oh, this is quite interesting, because this seems to hit at that particulartime.
Okay, well, is there anything common in the timing in which that hits?
know, and kind of so I started to see these patterns, Claire, and I spent that 10 yearslooking at the patterns, checking the patterns, keeping a track of them, seeing what
emotions particularly, because there are data, hey, so what emotions are presenting atdifferent points in time.
(14:52):
I was just curious about it.
And then I started to think, actually, this could be quite helpful.
know, Motion, we've got a coaching team.
And I was thinking, OK, so it helps me to make sure, you know, are the team prepared forwhen this presents itself or how we navigate that with different people?
we, you know, can we help make sure that we're really ready for these things if they startto arise?
(15:12):
And then I started to write it down and started to develop a model that helped me to seewhat I felt I understood.
So.
That was kind of the initial development of it and it was pure curiosity and it was formedwith a view of saying okay within the maternal transition and then we widened it out to
(15:34):
look at non-birth parents as well so to look at within the wider parental transition.
if we see certain things at different points in time or if we see a need for explorationof boundaries at a certain point in time, let's just make sure that we are totally
prepared, you know, that we've got all our latest thinking on that.
And so that was kind of the start of it, Claire, and that was happening over those 10years from kind of 2013 to 2023.
(16:02):
And then...
a member of your research population, I notice.
m
you know, and it's like, yes, I'm feeling that too.
Exactly.
And you know, it's interesting because I've just started writing down things now that I'vegot children leaving primary school and going into high school.
It's like, oh, so what am I experiencing right now?
(16:23):
Let's start to see.
You know, working mother, the teen years kind of thing.
Yeah, we'll see how that one goes.
Hey, I've got a little bit more thinking to do on that one.
But we um
Yeah, so basically then Claire, what we had was this, or what I had was this great load ofinformation that was really useful and very helpful for the business working with other
(16:48):
businesses in terms of helping clients to understand the parental transition, helping thembrief their line managers on how they can support.
Great stuff, great stuff.
Then I had this big dilemma and big moment where I just thought...
By the minute, this isn't right because people who need to access it can't access it.
Well, the person who needs to access it most, the parents in that transition, andparticularly the working mother who all the data tells us is the most vulnerable, unless
(17:18):
you're very privileged and work in a business that provides coaching.
Unless you're in the business that provides coaching that even thinks that parentalcoaching is a thing, which is rarer.
Again, you're not going to access this work.
And that does not sit with me very well.
So the book was my response to that because I thought if, you know, just under 15 quid,you can buy this for yourself, for a sister, for a daughter, for a friend, for a
(17:50):
colleague, for a direct report.
and say, you know, we're not going to be able to give you the full thing that this is theequivalent, here we go, take it.
And that's why I wrote this for her.
didn't write it for HR audience because I, somebody described it as that kind of, youknow, coaching your pocket kind of principle, but it is, I ask the same questions in here
(18:12):
that I spent 10 years refining in the coaching room, you know, and I...
I don't believe everybody needs a coach, but I believe everybody should be able to accessone if they need one.
And accessibility of coaching is so difficult that this is why this birthed.
(18:33):
So for me, there was a real moral responsibility to put it out there, just in case if ithelps 100 women, then that's great.
That's 100 more who might have been able to access it beforehand.
So yeah.
It was a, it was a, didn't set out to find a book, write a book.
I didn't want to put anything out there that was just adding noise.
(18:58):
I thought if it helps, if it helps the narrative, if it helps influence the narrativepositively in a way that isn't currently being talked about or being influenced, then
actually that's a responsibility.
So that's how the book.
pain here.
But it took a good 10 years.
(19:19):
People say that, you know, it's the book I needed.
we didn't have, sorry this makes me sound really old, we didn't have the internet, or ifthe internet existed I didn't have access to it, we didn't have mobile phones, and if you
wanted information you had to go to the library or ring somebody up and ask them to sendit to you in an envelope, if you could work out where you were going to get it from.
(19:49):
And...
library, you know.
uh
Whilst also going to work.
m
I'll put a chapter in the book.
so some of the principles in the book, the coaching principles, the underpinningprinciples are universal principles.
So again, I wrote them around chapters like fear, boundaries, know, kind of control.
(20:11):
So shared principles.
But there is one in there that I feel is so important and it is about kind of...
true kind of bench, personal development board, you know, who's on your bench, who's gotyour back, who are you reaching out to?
And in my personal and professional opinion, there are so many things in life we canchoose to do by ourselves, but we don't have to do by ourselves.
(20:37):
And this is one of them.
And there are so many incredible...
working parents for sure, my books for her because she's the most vulnerable it seems inthis, know, sitting around tables trying to look like they're navigating it, trying to
look like they've got, trying to look like they're okay.
(20:58):
And you just think actually when you're not okay, who can you really turn to to go, I'mreally, really struggling with this.
And
That's a very intentional action isn't it because your work colleagues get their peersupport after work and your mum friends get their peer support during the working day.
(21:22):
So finding that person, those people is quite an artful thing.
It's so hard and people often say, Claire, you know, I feel like I hide the fact still,still, it used to be louder 10 years ago, but still people say, I feel like I hide the
(21:43):
fact that I'm a parent in the day.
I was talking to an incredible woman and she said, actually I'm at home with the babybecause not very well.
I said, where's the baby?
She's behind the screen.
you know, it's like, and okay, that may have been, that was her choice, but she was hidingthe baby, you know, and going, I really hope she doesn't wake up during this call.
I really hope she doesn't wake up during this call.
(22:04):
And so that hiding that part of life, that part of them during the day.
and hiding the other part of them outside of the working day.
When I went back to work, judgment, Claire, came from the most unexpected places of megoing back to work so early.
(22:24):
And comments like, goodness, I hope your child's going to be okay with you.
like, like, judgment, shocking judgment, and it really felt that I was really goingagainst the grain.
And then one day I came home and my eldest must have been about one and a half, and he waspooping around the kitchen on a pretend car.
(22:48):
and he got like a little bag over his shoulder and he went, hi, he said, I'm the mom, hemust've been older, he was talking too, hi, I'm the mom, he said, I've just got in from
work and I've got some tofu in my bag and I'm gonna make tea now, you know, and it wasjust like, what a cool thing.
And was in that moment I thought, we're fine, we're good, we're so good, this is allright.
(23:10):
oh
But there had been a lot of judgment, a lot of judgment before about what I was doing,because I shouldn't have been choosing to do both of those things.
I had to do both those things.
I needed to earn an income, you know.
But I chose to do both those things as well.
And it came with, yeah, it came with quite a lot of difficult conversations with people.
(23:34):
And that's interesting in relation to having your board or your support team, isn't it?
Because what you're doing is you're looking for the supporting people whilst at the sametime having to really quite actively deal with the detractors.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I found finding people on the support team who could understand both perspectives waschallenging as well because there weren't that many people that had done it, you know, or
(23:58):
one person I knew who had done it and was an incredible support to me but had also been ina position where they've been able to have a full-time nanny.
You know, we weren't, that wasn't how our household was set up.
It ran on two incomes.
needed both our incomes, you know, it kind of, another brilliant support for me who'd gotfour children, but he was the dad, you know, and his wife who had had a great career, lots
(24:21):
of women giving up great careers, had had a great, fantastic legal career beforehand stopsto stay at home with the four children, you know, and those huge challenges of, my husband
at the time was a head teacher
and so incredibly supportive, but just not around during the day.
You can't rely on them in the term time during the day.
(24:43):
was just not, you know, if something kicked off, there was no.
So that, those really deep conversations, even with your supporters about, how do wereally make this work?
Because I am the one that the school has the number for, or I am the one that the doctorhas the number for, or I am the one that sees the.
(25:03):
we've run out of tracksuit bottoms or I am that, know, and it's, I feel, I put stuff in, alot of stuff in the book about,
connection to your sense of self, so whether it's your values, whether it's aboutidentity, whether it's about your motivations, whether it's about your intentions, oh and
(25:24):
a lot about how to really, because they're changing during this period of time, what youthought was important is really being challenged and who you thought you were, you've got
a new job title, don't know if you like it or not, you know, it's like, and even thoughyou wanted it.
and that sense of connecting to yourself so you can then articulate that, know, and by nomeans perfect communicator, but I've studied communication a lot.
(25:50):
I've looked at communication a lot.
I've learned that communication a lot.
And being able to find my voice in that period of time was super difficult, superdifficult.
And again, I felt like I had quite a lot of tools that were there to help me and I stillfound it really challenging.
So it's, think this period of time pulls on so many levels for people.
(26:15):
pulls on a superficial but significant, how on earth does all of this, how do I get to theend of the day in one piece?
And it pulls on that really, really deep sets level of, and why, who, how, and why evengonna get to the end of the day just as me?
(26:37):
I love the title, As We're Talking, because as you were talking just then I was thinking,it's quite binary isn't it?
You're a worker, and whatever the identity, or you're a parent.
And the challenge comes that you are that, but you're kind of not, because you're not onlythat, and you are the other, but you're not because you're kind of other things as well.
(27:01):
And that in between space is a real challenge.
It's a huge challenge and again we were looking at the title, know, the simplicity andcomplexity of this all in one go and I think for me the sense of I wanted so much to have
this title because I'm so proud of both parts of it.
(27:24):
I'm so proud of the work in me and I am so proud of the mother bee but when we put themtogether, blimey.
So Rachel, it's working mother full stop.
Yes.
Yes.
Because that's who I am and will always be.
(27:46):
Now I am that.
It's like, know, no matter what happens in the future, no matter what happens, I willalways be the working mother.
it's a no going back road, isn't it?
You know, and we said earlier, be careful what you wish for, because also sometimes thatroad, even when we're walking down it and even when we want it.
(28:11):
when we realise that there's a no going back on it, can feel that's quite a moment.
And I remember holding my first son when he arrived and my partner had to go probably foran off-stead or something like that, like 48 hours after he was born, if I had to think it
was.
And I remember holding this tiny thing, he was tiny when he was born, which is also partof the self-care chapter in this book, because that was me.
(28:40):
not taking care of myself and taking care of lots of other priorities.
So he was really, really small when he was born.
And I remember holding this thing and just thinking, I've got you forever.
As in, you you are here forever and hopefully here forever.
But you know, it's like, I can't put you some, can't, you don't, you don't go.
This is now it.
(29:02):
Yeah.
This is it.
And what a glorious it is.
things that we don't know.
We don't know what we don't know.
You know, and people ask sometimes, you know, I don't know if you get this clear, butpeople ask, what did you learn about yourself from writing a book?
You know, uh lots for sure.
(29:22):
oh That I like writing to REMs sitting on a sofa in a cafe.
don't know why.
But also, what did I learn?
What am I learning through myself from acquiring this job, this like label or title?
my days, constantly, constantly, constantly.
(29:43):
you know, every single time I think I understand it, they change and therefore I change inresponse to them.
You know, one day one of them said, you're quite good at this mum thing mum.
And I said, well, that's lucky, isn't it?
Because I am just having a go most of the time.
Just having a stab at it and sometimes I'll get it right and often I won't.
(30:06):
to
Yeah, so what's your dream for this book?
In your wildest dreams, what would you like for it?
uh
My dream is em quite gentle, I believe, Claire.
I write about the dream in the book.
(30:28):
I write about it very early on, actually, in the introduction.
I say, you know, I live in London and one day, so I say the tube, right?
But one day I would love to see somebody reading this book.
and I'd love to say to her, I'd love to go up to her, or if it's a line manager, maybe himor a partner, him or a, you know, and I would love to go up to whoever is reading and say,
(30:52):
is it any good?
Is it any good?
And for them to say, oh my God, it's completely helping me right now.
It's changing the way I think or feel right now.
And that's it.
And I recently, haven't quite achieved that yet.
(31:13):
but somebody who I didn't know wrote on LinkedIn, put up a copy of the book and tagged meon LinkedIn and said, em you haven't seen me on the tube yet reading this book.
But she said, have a good look around because if you ever see a person crying happy tearsof relief on the tube, the chances are they've got your book in their hand.
(31:34):
And so it was the loveliest thing, the real loveliest thing to read because
you know, it was just that moment of somebody clearly having read what I'd written, whichis always a very nice thing to hear, but saying, you you haven't seen me, but I am um
doing that.
(31:55):
And it had a picture of her holding this open on the tube, you know?
And so that's my ambition for it.
And I think Claire...
uh
There are lots of things, you know this as a writer as well, but there are lots of thingsabout the writing process is very varied and some of it I've loved and some of it I've
really not loved.
(32:15):
So the finding my voice was really difficult.
I wanted this to be for her.
It needed to be me, Rachel, talking to her in my language, my way.
So the finding the voice was really hard.
The writing the book was totally, totally joyful.
You know, I find the PR bits of writing the book.
quite challenging, you know, but I suppose I do it because the more people I can help knowthat this is out there, you know, and pick up a copy for a friend, for a sister, for a
(32:45):
sibling, for a direct report, as well as for yourself, you know, it's, then that'ssuccess.
That's success.
So just every 100 people that pick it up and see it will tell me that they've seen it.
I just think, that was worth it.
That was really, really worth it.
So you're talking to our lovely listeners in 128 countries.
(33:11):
What would you like?
If there was one thing they could do, what would it be?
The one thing I would suggest you do, if you are in the situation as a working parentnavigating this transition, I would say take it one step at a time and with kindness to
(33:33):
yourself.
That's the one thing for you to do.
Don't worry about everything.
Just go next.
One step at a time and with kindness to yourself.
And if you are listening to this and you are not a working parent,
get a copy and gift it.
But before you gift it, read it.
(33:53):
Because everybody, everybody's got a role to play in this.
Everybody can do something that's gonna help people in this transition.
So Working Mother by Rachel Morris.
Buy it, read it, it.
Buy it, read it, it.
I like that.
Thank you for coming to The Coaching Inn, Rachel.
(34:15):
Oh, thank you for having me.
It's so lovely to chat to you.
Thank you, Claire.
and you and thank you for listening everyone we'll be back next week with another episodebye bye
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