October 11, 2025 • 36 mins
Join Claire at The Book Corner in our virtual pub, The Coaching Inn for a rich discussion about some books that are reshaping our understanding of diversity, inclusion, and personal growth.
Our guests, Nathan Whitbread and Kelly Drewery, share their experiences and insights from reading
- Belonging Without Othering by john a. powell and Stephen Menendian https://amzn.to/41ZoTBH
- Me and White Supremacy by Layla Saad https://amzn.to/41mUxZO
- Blindspot: Hidden Biases of Good People by Mahzarin R. Banaji, Anthony G. Greenwald, et al. https://amzn.to/45ORWsU
- Show Your Work by Austin Kleon https://amzn.to/4632QeS
- Rivers of London series by Ben Aaronovitch https://amzn.to/41mUCwA
- The Life Impossible by Matt Haig https://amzn.to/3Vl8K5M
- The Storyteller by Jodi Picoult https://amzn.to/45UO6ye
- Mythos by Stephen Fry https://amzn.to/3JuzKxk
- The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker https://amzn.to/47MXhDx
- Extraordinary Popular Delusions and The Madness of Crowds by Charles Mackay https://amzn.to/3JAwsZd
Contact:
- Contact Nathan and Kelly through Linked In linkedin.com/in/nathanaelwhitbread and linkedin.com/in/kellydrewery
- Contact Claire by emailing info@3dcoaching.com or check out our Substack where you can talk with other listeners.
Further Information:
- Subscribe or follow The Coaching Inn on your podcast platform or our YouTube Channel to hear or see new episodes as they drop.
- Find out more about 3D Coaching and get new ideas and offers in our weekly email.
Keywords:
Coaching, Book Club, Podcast, Personal Growth, Diversity, Inclusion, Leadership, Self-awareness, Blindspot, White Supremacy, Gathering, Networking, Professional Development, Reading, Insights, Transformation, Mindset, Learning, Collaboration, Empowerment
We love having a variety of guests join us! Please remember that inviting someone to participate does not mean we necessarily endorse their views or opinions. We believe in open conversation and sharing different perspectives.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:15):
Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode of The Coaching Inn which is a SaturdayOpen Table and it's a book corner.
uh So I know you love the book corners, they get loads and loads of listens.
So if you'd like to join me in the book corner at a future episode, find a friend, send mean email and let's do it.
(00:39):
So 3D Coaching's very own Nathan Whitbread.
and Kelly Drewery, welcome to the Coaching In.
Thank you very much, nice to be here Claire, thanks for the invite.
lovely to meet you.
So Kelly, tell us a bit about your coaching journey.
Ooh, coaching journey.
So I've been coaching one-to-one for about five years.
(01:03):
Like many people, I think I discovered coaching somewhere in the midst of lockdown.
So I started coaching online and yeah, so it's...
I still love online coaching actually because you're in such a lovely space, aren't you,with people?
and do various different kinds of coaching.
I'm also a team coach as well, so do a lot of team development with different teams, whichbrings its own uh exciting challenges and it's a really lovely space to be in.
(01:35):
Nice, and Nathan, which bit of you do you want to tell us about?
I guess it's the bookie bit of me that turns up today.
So I'm a coach, I tend to do individual coaching, I also do some other group stuff, mainlyfocused around neurodiversity in the workplace.
But we're not here to talk about that today, we're here to talk about some explorationaround some interesting books that me and my friend Kelly have been reading that have
(01:57):
really got us thinking.
I guess, yeah, I guess we want to talk about it as well, because actually,
It's been a huge learning space about all sorts of things, a place of challenge, but alsoa place of kind of working out what needs to be different.
Nice.
I got my mojo back reading, so I'm really happy to talk about books today.
Do know I didn't read a non-fiction book for about five years?
(02:21):
Well, I did.
I read little pages of bits and never really read anything.
And then suddenly I got my fiction mojo back and now I've got my non-fiction mojo back.
It's very lovely.
I am nearly finished.
I'd like to tell you this because it's been a long journey.
Belonging without Othering.
(02:44):
Mmm, I like that.
two people and it's in the kitchen because I'm reading it so I can't tell you who it's by.
I'll pop it in the show notes.
It's a really interesting book, it's a hard read but the amazing thing is that there are100 pages of references so I think I'm only halfway through but that's not true because
I've nearly finished.
(03:06):
The joy, the joy!
So that is a sort of really beautiful thing.
You you've still got half a book left and you know you haven't got half a book left.
Anyway, it's not about me, it's about you.
What are you lovely people reading?
Well, should I start Kelly or should you want to?
So the reason why we kind of started reading together, because we started reading thisbook, which I'm just going to hold up, which is Me and White Supremacy, which I know
(03:29):
others have heard of.
And I believe there's even some people that run some facilitated book clubs around it.
And the reason why we started reading together, because if you read the T's and C's onthis book, it says you cannot pay to be part of a group to read this book.
should always be free.
So me and Kelly thought we'll just read it together.
(03:50):
And it was quite an interesting adventure wasn't it?
Because it's quite a hard book to read I think in some ways because it really challengedand it's quite an angry book and I understand why it's angry because there's a lot of
injustice it's talking about.
I guess we were quite challenged
(04:13):
Well, I was very challenged in terms of what does that mean for me?
How much of this stuff do I actually agree with?
How much of this stuff do I not agree with?
And also we started to think about if we took the word, if we took racism, the word out ofit and put other difference in, what would that look like?
And I think we started to realize that this is absolutely a valid book, but it's a bookabout difference as much as it's about racism because actually people treat each other.
(04:41):
badly in the same sorts of ways regardless of the difference.
I guess it's a good place to start.
Where did you get to, Cally?
Yeah, no, I'm completely with you on that, Nathan.
think we did reach a point where we had some conversations quite early on where like,actually, this is more than just race.
(05:04):
And that you could put it into all sorts of different contexts.
So there's some real beautiful kind of learnings from it in terms of how we can
um show up effectively.
And we were talking through all sorts of different implications for coaching, weren't we,Nathan, just in terms of, you know, helping people, just sort of making decisions and
(05:31):
really just having that level of self-awareness.
And yeah, so many layers.
I don't know where to start, really.
But yeah.
because I started it and then I bought the workbook for Moon, which is...
And then I recognised that it was going to be really hard and I was going to need to goreally slowly and I wasn't committed to reading.
(05:57):
So actually, I mean, maybe I'm going to pick it up after Belonging Without Othering, whichI absolutely agree with a lot of the examples in Belonging Without Othering are about
race.
and ethnicity and country of origin and all those things.
But I have scribbled all over it of how I can see it connects and challenges around allkinds of difference.
(06:23):
So if anyone ever wants to read a book after me, you'll know exactly what I what Ithought, because I've written it all over it in pencil.
Well, there's some great exercises in the book.
They were doing with, you know, sort of going away reading three or four chapters each andthen coming back and, you know, exploring what we'd come up with from each of the
(06:48):
exercises.
And Nathan, you were saying, you know, actually, you could apply this to any kind ofneurodiversity.
You could apply it to age, you could apply it to social class.
It's all sorts of different ways that, you different privileges.
show up for people in different spaces.
It's so valuable really, sort going deeper into race as well for people that aren'texposed to that very much, but it really, you know, it made us explore this whole space uh
(07:19):
in a lot of depth actually.
think it really did change us, didn't it Nathan, just in terms of...
think so and think one of the things that really jumped out for me was that, and it'sfunny because it relates to a conversation I was having with someone today and they were
talking to this individual is a mixed race individual who lives in a very affluent whitemiddle class area.
(07:41):
She was just describing when I go to the gym people look at me differently.
They don't have to say anything but I think it's different about the way they treat me.
And it's this, do you know what really gets under my skin?
This whole idea that
when you have a power differential, the person with the least power is supposed to do allthe advocating.
(08:02):
Where did that turn up?
Which I don't place into the Timothy Clark stuff around psychological safety andchallenger safety being kind of like the starting point for most people.
But the reality is you haven't even got the safety to turn up, let alone challenge.
(08:22):
Yeah, so it's so interesting, it?
And that's showing up.
You know, the more we become aware of difference, the more you notice it shows up.
You know, how many neurodiversity advocates are not neurodivergent?
Yeah, and how many people are writing books about neurodiversity that aren'tneurodivergent?
(08:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So Me and White Supremacy by Layla.
Lay this side.
Yeah.
So that's where we started.
Where do we go next?
We saw a
are we going in order here
(09:08):
This beauty.
uh So this is about the hidden biases of good people.
ah So all sorts of ways that our brain naturally have bias, otherwise our brains wouldcompletely explode.
ah So we filter things, we fill in meaning.
ah
know, find ways to actually make ourselves feel good as well.
(09:31):
you know, we've got, uh you know, conformity biases, authority biases, all sorts ofdifferent biases that we have.
um And so these things were showing up in this book and just pointing out that they can bea good thing, but we also need to be aware of them because they can, you know, create the
(09:53):
blind spots.
So yeah, so there's some interesting things.
What did you feel?
because I'm going through my audible and finding the ones that I need to finish.
Well what I love about this book is because there's obviously books that are written thatare kind of bit more opinion pieces aren't there?
You know they go well I've had an idea but Blindspot's based on a research one if you'regoing for 20 years is it?
(10:17):
Or is it longer?
You you can actually take you can you can actually participate in the research and youcould find out a little bit about maybe some of the biases you have in because they do
this thing around they show you two images and I think it stopped and it was about raceinitially again so
would show a picture of maybe a gun and then they associate which color you're thinkingabout most and you can start to see some of the associations and that can be quite hard I
(10:45):
think you know in terms of seeing some of that stuff because you kind of go well I've gotthis kind of bit going on that I'm this because I still think you have choice but there's
an argument here that says although you have choice there are some sort of should we sayslightly pre-made decisions about
what could influence that choice and you're to have to work quite actively to be, shouldwe say, more fair and balanced in some of the choices you make and that can relate to
(11:12):
everything.
Where you buy your petrol from, the shops you visit, who you interact with and all thosemicro choices can have huge impact if think that affects large numbers of people.
I think that's really interesting.
I can't remember if it was in that book or whether I've read it since though, but I alsolike this idea of likeability bias.
(11:34):
Yes.
and how for people we like we'll forgive them all sorts of things.
Interesting, that's so interesting.
So you didn't go for the easy journey did you?
No.
By the way, Kelly does drag me across the coals.
Well, I'd just like to say that I'd just like to say Kelly, rightly so, drags me acrossthe coals in terms of my thinking because what I've really liked about our conversation
(12:03):
about this, hasn't been a nice, I mean, obviously we get on well as people that respecteach other, but there hasn't been this kind of like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
There's been some quite, I guess, robust conversation about stuff actually.
about why do we think that?
Why do you think that?
Is that okay to think that?
How on did you get there?
(12:23):
Because I think what I've really found great about doing this with is that Kelly's gotsome really good, I think some well thought through strong views around, for example, some
of the way women are treated.
Is that a good way to share that Kelly?
It's basically by our society and some of the laws we have around that, in terms ofparticularly around some of the offences that are committed and how that relates to some
(12:45):
of this stuff.
thinking about some of the implications of some of the ways we think about this hasmassive impact for how we behave as a society.
Yeah.
Yeah.
uh
really, really useful, actually, really challenging.
Yeah, and thanks for that Nathan.
I think some of our conversations have covered, you know, of race, gender, but also thingslike faith, uh wealth distribution, you know, and how that shows up in workplaces, you
(13:14):
know, in terms of people being, you know, put at risk of redundancy, for example, and howmuch easier it is to be able to cope with that if you've got the resources and
know, supporting the background if you don't have that privilege.
And so, you know, we've been sort of exploring, well, has that turned up in our ownexperiences or with people that we've coached and, ah you know, other people that we've
(13:41):
known in various organisations that we've worked in?
it's been a real, quite a personal journey, but I think that's what we've really enjoyedthough, hasn't it, Nathan?
It's really made us show up.
um and deep into our own experiences in a way that a lot of other books you find, um youknow, you can keep a certain distance from them, but you can't, you can't with these
(14:03):
books.
You really are, you know, challenging yourself at, you know, almost a meta level of, know,am I being kind of like colourblind?
All sorts of different things that it really unpacks and really goes quite deep.
So I'm loving the idea that you've got a worksheet, Claire.
and that you're going to give it uh time.
(14:25):
Because I think that's, we found we could only do it in bits at a time.
Really, yeah, really through it.
lovely cover.
I just need to find it.
Keep talking.
For the person to take, Claire's got off to find her work bro.
Oh here it is.
(14:46):
mean, it's a really, it's a, you know, it merits the, it's a beautiful workbook.
uh
as well as much.
Yeah, guided journal.
And it was hard and it said, so I've done the first bit and it was hard and it said, goslowly.
(15:07):
Yeah, I'd agree with that.
I totally agree with that.
Because it's easy to rush this stuff and actually it's kind of like an onion.
You've got to remove the layers that you use to protect yourself from the that don't needprotecting from almost.
If that makes sense.
And I think the journey of doing it with somebody else who's different is really useful.
(15:34):
but different enough, but also you have enough trust that you can receive challenge and bechallenged without it being that whole catastrophic thing where you go, my gosh.
It sounds like a book group with nuclear accountability.
Is that how we navigate?
(15:56):
I'm sorry, I gotta go now.
if you're in a book group with 10 people, you can sort of disappear.
Whereas if you're in a book group with two people, there is no corner.
Yeah.
It's interesting and actually, yeah.
Go on, tell me you're gonna say.
No, you say it, no, I'm just thinking.
was gonna say, what did you read after blind spot?
Well, we've read some other interesting bits, because we've also done some more business-yrelated stuff.
(16:20):
We did that marketing bit, I can't remember which one it was.
It was that short bit we looked at.
Yes, which we quite like.
Because we're coaches and for anyone listening to the podcast, I'm sure, unless you're amultimillionaire coach, you probably think a lot about, know, how do I make this business
work?
And I know that's not the purpose of why we're here, but that's really relevant.
(16:40):
I think often in coaching, we either duck that subject or fearfully
run around scared of what the answers might be.
I don't personally think it's complicated to find clients or people to work with but I dothink it takes work and it takes a bit of thinking and it's all about who do you want to
(17:00):
work with, where are you going to put the time and effort in.
So what was the book called again?
Show Your Work by Austin Cleon.
Yeah, it's quite a short book, but it's quite useful because it just talks about marketingstrategy at a very basic level, which is all about, know, who do you want to work with?
(17:22):
How are you going to work with them?
How are you going to keep it human so that they don't think you're completely imbecile andhassling them to the point you never want to hear from them ever again?
You know, all that sort of good stuff, which is which is what we hear repackaged over andover again.
I there's nothing new here, is there?
Relationship people buy from people they like and trust.
How do you build that trust in a scalable way that works for you and doesn't kind of wrungyou ragged creating content that you're you know, making sure you're actually doing the
(17:51):
things you enjoy doing in terms of content creation, which I think was really, has beenreally useful.
Yeah.
go on Kelly.
I was going to say, think what I took away from that particular book was, you know, takepeople with you on the journey of discovery, know, all the various bit of Lego bricks that
you collect on the way and sort of and just sort of, you know, share those, you know, sothat you're taking everybody with you.
(18:18):
So we were realising after we'd been reading these other books, actually, we probably wantto unpack these a bit more.
ah It is a journey, it is a journey that you go through, it's lifelong as well.
ah Yeah, it's, yeah, yeah, they're all related, all those books are related.
We can.
(18:38):
In the commercial break, I want to know what's the latest novel you've read.
Thank
You want to know now?
Go UKRA first, Kelly.
the novel is the commercial break.
Okay, right.
for me, I've been reading the whole of the Rivers of London series and I absolutely loveit.
(18:59):
I mean, it's the best ever.
I think I've told you about it's really good because I actually love it.
for those of you that haven't read it or have been exposed to it, it's Harry Potter meetsthe Metropolitan Police.
It's this concept that there is a secret part to the Metropolitan Police that is chargedwith managing weird beep, beep, beep.
That's the word they use in the book, but weird stuff, i.e.
And there's two individuals, one of them's who's been kicking around since the end of theSecond World War, and another one's a new recruit who basically didn't fit in anywhere
(19:24):
else and got recruited in.
But it's fascinating because you've got this blend between really well-researched policeprocedure with the overlay of this magical stuff going on.
And I love that kind of wrestling going on.
So it's a really interesting insight into the police, but at the same time, you've gotthis kind of mystical angle to it.
And it's got real people in it.
And that's the other thing, you know?
So that's what I've been reading.
(19:46):
And what are you reading?
My summer read, and I know some of your previous guests on the book corner are bit of afan as well, but I've got the latest Matt Haig book.
yeah, this one's The Life Impossible.
I think it came out about four weeks ago.
So June, June, July 2025.
(20:07):
And this one's set in Ibiza.
So it feels like a summer holiday read to me, but I love Matt Haig.
I love all of his kids' books.
My kids love them.
uh And I love all of his novels as well, they're great.
So my favourite one was The Humans.
Love that story.
It just has such imagination, different perspective and just way to look in at the worldthat you come away and just feel bigger and wiser in some fashion.
(20:35):
love that Hague, he's great.
nice nice I'm just reading in some who done it thing.
Who's it by?
Who did do it?
oh
I'm only on about page 20.
I recently read The Storyteller by Jodie Pickle that I thought was really fascinating.
that was, she really researches her books.
(20:58):
she, I mean, I don't like all her books.
She wrote one about Egypt that I didn't like at all, but it was very well researched.
This one was about a Holocaust survivor in America.
And it had different...
It jumps to and fro in time, which was really fascinating.
(21:19):
And it really made me think.
And I like novels that make me think.
I also like novels.
Well, I did start reading mythos and I have now I'm reading again.
It's back on my list.
Because he's written a brilliant book that's slightly older, is, think it's basicallyabout the one where Hitler gets murdered, but isn't born because someone sterilises his
(21:45):
parents.
And then how does that play out?
And it's just, I love the idea that actually it's thinking about you can't just take badstuff away if you don't take away the processes that make bad stuff happen.
Yeah.
thought it was fascinating.
The other author I met recently, which I absolutely love, was Carissa, oh what's her name?
She wrote her How to Train Your Dragon.
(22:07):
So she is just so awesome and I'm absolutely convinced she's dyslexic, because the way shedescribed it, because she's got a character in her book The Wizards of Once, who is a
dyslexic female who's absolutely awesome and I think it's her.
But she just talked about the whole process of writing some of this stuff.
She basically spent every summer holiday on an island with no electricity, one house thather family stayed in and the whole How to Drain Your Dragon stuff is written around stuff
(22:32):
that's on that island.
It's just amazing.
So she is incredible and she just talks about the whole process of storytelling, how youtake real things and add a bit of a twist of something unusual to it.
She's brilliant.
Nice.
I've also pre-ordered the new Richard Osman, um but that won't come out.
(22:52):
Well, apparently he's going back to Cooper's Chase.
For those of you listening around the world, Richard Osman has written a series of booksabout a retirement village.
And uh then he wrote another one about something else, We Solved Murders, and this nextone goes back.
(23:14):
to Cooper's Chase Retirement Village.
So very exciting.
I have it on pre-order so it will arrive the day it comes out.
Alright, it's so exciting.
Yeah.
so now our commercial break is over let's go back to work and remember listeners we'd loveto hear from you and we'd love you to come to the book corner doesn't matter where you are
(23:37):
in the world yeah bring a friend and tell us what you're reading so Kelly you're the onewho's got the stash in front of you what's the next one on your list?
So you say that that is that is my summer read but my slightly more it might feed intowhat I do is actually this lovely book that I picked up in one of the museums in Cambridge
(24:04):
where I live um and it's been designed around the earth shot awards.
It's really, I think it's designed to be for teenagers, but just to be sort of thinkingabout, oh, it's a handbook for dreamers and thinkers.
(24:25):
And it's by Johnny Hughes and Colin Butterfield.
So it's about solutions to repair our planet.
And it just, it feels like it's going to be a really lovely read.
This one I'm actually going to read with my kids and it's got a lovely kind of, you know,
content that feels like summer in it, you know, but it's got lots of different kind ofcase studies and different things that have been going on in different parts of the world,
(24:52):
but in really accessible, straightforward way that's not 7,000 pages of text.
So, yeah, so that's my next read and I'm going to see how that sort of feeds into the workthat I do.
Oh lovely.
Nathan you've got another one.
I have, yeah, so I went to the shelf because I totally realised it was a really good bookthat I had read a little while ago, which I thought would be good to mention, because I
(25:18):
think some books really influence us and we don't always realise the extent.
So this is a book that I read quite a years ago, but I do come back to quite a And it'scalled The Extraordinary Popular Delusions and The Madness of Crowds.
Now, why this book is really interesting is because it talks about, I guess you're awareof things like the South Sea Bubble, the tulip.
(25:41):
sort of, and the, what they call it, it was sort of this tulip movement in Holland wherebasically tulips became incredibly overvalued to the point where one guy actually was
sentenced to death for accidentally eating a tulip of high value.
And it's just this idea that human beings go through these constant cycles of boom andbust.
(26:02):
And we saw it in the dot com boom, we saw it in the sub prime market, and we'll see itagain in the next thing.
And I think.
The thing that really influenced me about this book, very in mind this book is quite anold book now, is that the same cycles exist.
The same cycles exist and they don't go away.
We are fools if we think they change because human beings fundamentally behave the same.
(26:24):
They go through this cycle of making things more and more more valuable with things thatintrinsically don't have that value.
And the way I like to think about is eventually you run out of mugs who are prepared topay that value and suddenly the price drops.
we see that in all sorts of things and I wonder if we may see it in some of the spaces weoperate in sometimes about certain things and certain offers.
(26:44):
So I just I think we're fools if we don't learn the lessons of history and that's one ofthe I guess one of the books for me that really kind of banged that home in a big way.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So what's the one you're reading at the moment?
At the moment I'm reading a that you'd actually asked me to look at.
(27:07):
together we're not reading a book at the moment actually because we are in interregnum atthe moment.
We are waiting to start our next one.
Which is interesting.
inspiration at the moment, help me Nathan.
Yeah, so we've taken a little break there in terms of, because as could imagine it wasactually quite intense, which was good, but know work took over for a bit.
But we are, think the plan is to get back together towards the end of the year to startdoing some stuff again.
(27:33):
lovely.
please.
The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker.
this book?
Yes Nathan, I do mean the book you're holding in your hand.
do you mean, Claire?
What do you mean this one?
Yeah
I liked it so much I sent a copy to everyone in our team, you see.
(27:56):
But Nathan hadn't told me he'd already got it.
I knew I had it and I had it.
It sounded like a really good book.
I'll put it on my pile.
We'll take that recommendation Paul, that's very kind, I'll make him read it.
really good.
I've read the first chapter and I'm sitting on it, if that makes sense in terms of like...
(28:20):
about it is that some workbooks are quite a hard read.
And some workbooks are an easy read, but a hard application.
So it's a beautiful thing to read.
So the Art of Gathering is really beautifully, it's a beautiful book to read and thenyou've got to start thinking about it.
(28:41):
And I like that because it gives you a little bit of a flow before you have to go, ohgolly, now I need to think about this.
What are you learning from it Claire?
Yeah, go on, carry on.
it?
So I'm going to pick it up because it's got all my tensor marks in it and I can tell youwhat I'm learning from it.
I think what I like about it is...
(29:03):
It's close enough to what I believe about hosting as a coach and a facilitator that it'sdeeply challenging because I sort of agree with it and she sort of pushes it and it's like
she pushes it a bit further in different places.
So it's not like a new and radical different view where you've got to go, do I think thisis okay or not?
(29:30):
It's...
Yeah, it's a lot of sense making and a lot of potential for disruption.
So for example, she's talking about inclusion.
So she says, Barack Obama's aunt once told him, if everyone is family, no one is family.
(29:55):
It's blood that makes a tribe, a border that makes a nation.
The same is true of gatherings.
So here is a corollary to his aunt saying, if everyone is invited, no one is invited inthe sense of being truly held by the group.
By closing the door, you create the room.
And then you kind of go.
(30:20):
It's full of those kind of things where you go, well, of course, and then and what if andbecause and all of those things.
Yeah, so there's bits there abouts or boundaries, isn't there, and just being in oroutside that boundary.
Yeah.
So belonging without othering is more philosophical, whereas this is more practical.
(30:48):
Yeah.
What have you done differently so far in DJing?
very challenging question.
Can I just tell you our listeners love it when guests turn the table on me.
I get lots of emails going I really like that episode.
Well first of all I sent it to my team.
(31:10):
because the authors sound really rich.
in the middle of writing a chapter in a book and realized that the coach is host.
And that's really got me thinking about we are the host.
So it's their space and yet we're the host.
(31:33):
So that's a sort of emerging thing and that will come out through hundreds ofconversations.
and I'll probably know what I think about under conversations time.
But there's a real, there's a, yeah, there's a sense making and also um some just reallygood practical stuff.
(31:58):
Like when you're hosting, don't start with the notices.
I like that level of practical.
uh
in my training and we're on site or online, I don't start by saying we're going to have abreak at the top of the hour.
We need to start by being purposeful and being what we're here for.
(32:18):
We can talk about the fire exits five minutes or 10 minutes in, but if that's what youstart with, you lose something of the soul of the gathering and what the gathering is for.
And she does quite a lot of work around pre-gatherings.
So the night before gathering of the thing.
And the other thing that I've done is I went to a nine others dinner, which I'veinterviewed Katie from Neither and Others on a previous podcast.
(32:49):
And that's a gathering meal.
And there's some real connections between what Priya Parker says and what the nine othersdinner was like.
So I went to one a few weeks ago and that was really fantastic.
And I actually made a really big decision as a result of it.
What do you think listeners, should I ask Claire what the decision is?
(33:12):
Excellent.
The trailer.
sign an NDA Clare.
Sorry, sorry, Kelly.
at some point but not today.
Yeah.
I mean I just read the first chapter Claire and I was just really struck by the whole, Idon't know it's all basic in some sense, but the whole why bit, why are we gathering?
it's particularly, mean because some of the work I do is around meetings seems to be thefavourite, I know there's people that specialise this, but it seems to be a theme that
(33:39):
comes up over and over again, particularly with some of the work I do around academicinstitutions and non-for-profits.
I don't know why non-for-profits particularly, but they seem to like meetings and lots ofpeople spend an awful lot of time in them.
People don't remember the why.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you're not hot on the wire, then you end up in a bit of a mess, think, sometimes.
(33:59):
Yeah, Purpose of the meeting and why am I here?
What's my role?
Yeah.
90 % of their work is in the prep.
Well, the pre in the pre arriving, so it talks a lot about inviting.
What does it say in the invitation?
How do we invite?
What what do we put in place?
(34:20):
It's real and then accept that there is an end.
Yeah.
which of course is really important for coaching and podcasts.
Yeah, and I think that what I was going to say, that's a great hint, Clare, and I likethat, but...
But it was interesting you mentioned that, got a few...
All I was going to say was I think anything you do, if you don't start with the end inmind, then how could you make yourself redundant and irrelevant?
(34:46):
Because actually, if you fulfilled your purpose, surely that's the whole point.
Yeah.
Yeah, and you need to end and not overextend just because you think you haven't quitefinished because you probably have.
I didn't mean that.
That wasn't a...
So...
The love in the room.
(35:08):
Lovely listeners who've stayed till the end.
I've not gone, these three are completely bonkers, let me switch them off.
uh Kelly, how do people get in touch with you if they want to talk to you?
Oh, so I'm on, as most of us are on LinkedIn.
They can always track me down on LinkedIn.
(35:28):
It's quite easy to find me, given my surname.
So that's probably the best place to get in touch with me actually.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Nathan?
Same with me actually, LinkedIn or the website, whichever you, or 3D, you can get methrough 3D as well, so.
Marvellous.
So Kelly Drewery, Nathan Whitbread, thank you for coming to The Coaching Inn.
(35:51):
Thank you everybody for listening and really seriously, we would absolutely love to hearfrom you and a friend or two or three friends and come to a future episode of the book
corner at The Coaching Inn.
Or you could come to a podcast corner if podcast is your preference.
uh So thank you all for listening.
(36:11):
We'll be back next week with another episode.
Bye bye.
Bye.
Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode of The Coaching Inn which is a SaturdayOpen Table and it's a book corner.
uh So I know you love the book corners, they get loads and loads of listens.
So if you'd like to join me in the book corner at a future episode, find a friend, send mean email and let's do it.
(00:39):
So 3D Coaching's very own Nathan Whitbread.
and Kelly Drewery, welcome to the Coaching In.
Thank you very much, nice to be here Claire, thanks for the invite.
lovely to meet you.
So Kelly, tell us a bit about your coaching journey.
Ooh, coaching journey.
So I've been coaching one-to-one for about five years.
(01:03):
Like many people, I think I discovered coaching somewhere in the midst of lockdown.
So I started coaching online and yeah, so it's...
I still love online coaching actually because you're in such a lovely space, aren't you,with people?
and do various different kinds of coaching.
I'm also a team coach as well, so do a lot of team development with different teams, whichbrings its own uh exciting challenges and it's a really lovely space to be in.
(01:35):
Nice, and Nathan, which bit of you do you want to tell us about?
I guess it's the bookie bit of me that turns up today.
So I'm a coach, I tend to do individual coaching, I also do some other group stuff, mainlyfocused around neurodiversity in the workplace.
But we're not here to talk about that today, we're here to talk about some explorationaround some interesting books that me and my friend Kelly have been reading that have
(01:57):
really got us thinking.
I guess, yeah, I guess we want to talk about it as well, because actually,
It's been a huge learning space about all sorts of things, a place of challenge, but alsoa place of kind of working out what needs to be different.
Nice.
I got my mojo back reading, so I'm really happy to talk about books today.
Do know I didn't read a non-fiction book for about five years?
(02:21):
Well, I did.
I read little pages of bits and never really read anything.
And then suddenly I got my fiction mojo back and now I've got my non-fiction mojo back.
It's very lovely.
I am nearly finished.
I'd like to tell you this because it's been a long journey.
Belonging without Othering.
(02:44):
Mmm, I like that.
two people and it's in the kitchen because I'm reading it so I can't tell you who it's by.
I'll pop it in the show notes.
It's a really interesting book, it's a hard read but the amazing thing is that there are100 pages of references so I think I'm only halfway through but that's not true because
I've nearly finished.
(03:06):
The joy, the joy!
So that is a sort of really beautiful thing.
You you've still got half a book left and you know you haven't got half a book left.
Anyway, it's not about me, it's about you.
What are you lovely people reading?
Well, should I start Kelly or should you want to?
So the reason why we kind of started reading together, because we started reading thisbook, which I'm just going to hold up, which is Me and White Supremacy, which I know
(03:29):
others have heard of.
And I believe there's even some people that run some facilitated book clubs around it.
And the reason why we started reading together, because if you read the T's and C's onthis book, it says you cannot pay to be part of a group to read this book.
should always be free.
So me and Kelly thought we'll just read it together.
(03:50):
And it was quite an interesting adventure wasn't it?
Because it's quite a hard book to read I think in some ways because it really challengedand it's quite an angry book and I understand why it's angry because there's a lot of
injustice it's talking about.
I guess we were quite challenged
(04:13):
Well, I was very challenged in terms of what does that mean for me?
How much of this stuff do I actually agree with?
How much of this stuff do I not agree with?
And also we started to think about if we took the word, if we took racism, the word out ofit and put other difference in, what would that look like?
And I think we started to realize that this is absolutely a valid book, but it's a bookabout difference as much as it's about racism because actually people treat each other.
(04:41):
badly in the same sorts of ways regardless of the difference.
I guess it's a good place to start.
Where did you get to, Cally?
Yeah, no, I'm completely with you on that, Nathan.
think we did reach a point where we had some conversations quite early on where like,actually, this is more than just race.
(05:04):
And that you could put it into all sorts of different contexts.
So there's some real beautiful kind of learnings from it in terms of how we can
um show up effectively.
And we were talking through all sorts of different implications for coaching, weren't we,Nathan, just in terms of, you know, helping people, just sort of making decisions and
(05:31):
really just having that level of self-awareness.
And yeah, so many layers.
I don't know where to start, really.
But yeah.
because I started it and then I bought the workbook for Moon, which is...
And then I recognised that it was going to be really hard and I was going to need to goreally slowly and I wasn't committed to reading.
(05:57):
So actually, I mean, maybe I'm going to pick it up after Belonging Without Othering, whichI absolutely agree with a lot of the examples in Belonging Without Othering are about
race.
and ethnicity and country of origin and all those things.
But I have scribbled all over it of how I can see it connects and challenges around allkinds of difference.
(06:23):
So if anyone ever wants to read a book after me, you'll know exactly what I what Ithought, because I've written it all over it in pencil.
Well, there's some great exercises in the book.
They were doing with, you know, sort of going away reading three or four chapters each andthen coming back and, you know, exploring what we'd come up with from each of the
(06:48):
exercises.
And Nathan, you were saying, you know, actually, you could apply this to any kind ofneurodiversity.
You could apply it to age, you could apply it to social class.
It's all sorts of different ways that, you different privileges.
show up for people in different spaces.
It's so valuable really, sort going deeper into race as well for people that aren'texposed to that very much, but it really, you know, it made us explore this whole space uh
(07:19):
in a lot of depth actually.
think it really did change us, didn't it Nathan, just in terms of...
think so and think one of the things that really jumped out for me was that, and it'sfunny because it relates to a conversation I was having with someone today and they were
talking to this individual is a mixed race individual who lives in a very affluent whitemiddle class area.
(07:41):
She was just describing when I go to the gym people look at me differently.
They don't have to say anything but I think it's different about the way they treat me.
And it's this, do you know what really gets under my skin?
This whole idea that
when you have a power differential, the person with the least power is supposed to do allthe advocating.
(08:02):
Where did that turn up?
Which I don't place into the Timothy Clark stuff around psychological safety andchallenger safety being kind of like the starting point for most people.
But the reality is you haven't even got the safety to turn up, let alone challenge.
(08:22):
Yeah, so it's so interesting, it?
And that's showing up.
You know, the more we become aware of difference, the more you notice it shows up.
You know, how many neurodiversity advocates are not neurodivergent?
Yeah, and how many people are writing books about neurodiversity that aren'tneurodivergent?
(08:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So Me and White Supremacy by Layla.
Lay this side.
Yeah.
So that's where we started.
Where do we go next?
We saw a
are we going in order here
(09:08):
This beauty.
uh So this is about the hidden biases of good people.
ah So all sorts of ways that our brain naturally have bias, otherwise our brains wouldcompletely explode.
ah So we filter things, we fill in meaning.
ah
know, find ways to actually make ourselves feel good as well.
(09:31):
you know, we've got, uh you know, conformity biases, authority biases, all sorts ofdifferent biases that we have.
um And so these things were showing up in this book and just pointing out that they can bea good thing, but we also need to be aware of them because they can, you know, create the
(09:53):
blind spots.
So yeah, so there's some interesting things.
What did you feel?
because I'm going through my audible and finding the ones that I need to finish.
Well what I love about this book is because there's obviously books that are written thatare kind of bit more opinion pieces aren't there?
You know they go well I've had an idea but Blindspot's based on a research one if you'regoing for 20 years is it?
(10:17):
Or is it longer?
You you can actually take you can you can actually participate in the research and youcould find out a little bit about maybe some of the biases you have in because they do
this thing around they show you two images and I think it stopped and it was about raceinitially again so
would show a picture of maybe a gun and then they associate which color you're thinkingabout most and you can start to see some of the associations and that can be quite hard I
(10:45):
think you know in terms of seeing some of that stuff because you kind of go well I've gotthis kind of bit going on that I'm this because I still think you have choice but there's
an argument here that says although you have choice there are some sort of should we sayslightly pre-made decisions about
what could influence that choice and you're to have to work quite actively to be, shouldwe say, more fair and balanced in some of the choices you make and that can relate to
(11:12):
everything.
Where you buy your petrol from, the shops you visit, who you interact with and all thosemicro choices can have huge impact if think that affects large numbers of people.
I think that's really interesting.
I can't remember if it was in that book or whether I've read it since though, but I alsolike this idea of likeability bias.
(11:34):
Yes.
and how for people we like we'll forgive them all sorts of things.
Interesting, that's so interesting.
So you didn't go for the easy journey did you?
No.
By the way, Kelly does drag me across the coals.
Well, I'd just like to say that I'd just like to say Kelly, rightly so, drags me acrossthe coals in terms of my thinking because what I've really liked about our conversation
(12:03):
about this, hasn't been a nice, I mean, obviously we get on well as people that respecteach other, but there hasn't been this kind of like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
There's been some quite, I guess, robust conversation about stuff actually.
about why do we think that?
Why do you think that?
Is that okay to think that?
How on did you get there?
(12:23):
Because I think what I've really found great about doing this with is that Kelly's gotsome really good, I think some well thought through strong views around, for example, some
of the way women are treated.
Is that a good way to share that Kelly?
It's basically by our society and some of the laws we have around that, in terms ofparticularly around some of the offences that are committed and how that relates to some
(12:45):
of this stuff.
thinking about some of the implications of some of the ways we think about this hasmassive impact for how we behave as a society.
Yeah.
Yeah.
uh
really, really useful, actually, really challenging.
Yeah, and thanks for that Nathan.
I think some of our conversations have covered, you know, of race, gender, but also thingslike faith, uh wealth distribution, you know, and how that shows up in workplaces, you
(13:14):
know, in terms of people being, you know, put at risk of redundancy, for example, and howmuch easier it is to be able to cope with that if you've got the resources and
know, supporting the background if you don't have that privilege.
And so, you know, we've been sort of exploring, well, has that turned up in our ownexperiences or with people that we've coached and, ah you know, other people that we've
(13:41):
known in various organisations that we've worked in?
it's been a real, quite a personal journey, but I think that's what we've really enjoyedthough, hasn't it, Nathan?
It's really made us show up.
um and deep into our own experiences in a way that a lot of other books you find, um youknow, you can keep a certain distance from them, but you can't, you can't with these
(14:03):
books.
You really are, you know, challenging yourself at, you know, almost a meta level of, know,am I being kind of like colourblind?
All sorts of different things that it really unpacks and really goes quite deep.
So I'm loving the idea that you've got a worksheet, Claire.
and that you're going to give it uh time.
(14:25):
Because I think that's, we found we could only do it in bits at a time.
Really, yeah, really through it.
lovely cover.
I just need to find it.
Keep talking.
For the person to take, Claire's got off to find her work bro.
Oh here it is.
(14:46):
mean, it's a really, it's a, you know, it merits the, it's a beautiful workbook.
uh
as well as much.
Yeah, guided journal.
And it was hard and it said, so I've done the first bit and it was hard and it said, goslowly.
(15:07):
Yeah, I'd agree with that.
I totally agree with that.
Because it's easy to rush this stuff and actually it's kind of like an onion.
You've got to remove the layers that you use to protect yourself from the that don't needprotecting from almost.
If that makes sense.
And I think the journey of doing it with somebody else who's different is really useful.
(15:34):
but different enough, but also you have enough trust that you can receive challenge and bechallenged without it being that whole catastrophic thing where you go, my gosh.
It sounds like a book group with nuclear accountability.
Is that how we navigate?
(15:56):
I'm sorry, I gotta go now.
if you're in a book group with 10 people, you can sort of disappear.
Whereas if you're in a book group with two people, there is no corner.
Yeah.
It's interesting and actually, yeah.
Go on, tell me you're gonna say.
No, you say it, no, I'm just thinking.
was gonna say, what did you read after blind spot?
Well, we've read some other interesting bits, because we've also done some more business-yrelated stuff.
(16:20):
We did that marketing bit, I can't remember which one it was.
It was that short bit we looked at.
Yes, which we quite like.
Because we're coaches and for anyone listening to the podcast, I'm sure, unless you're amultimillionaire coach, you probably think a lot about, know, how do I make this business
work?
And I know that's not the purpose of why we're here, but that's really relevant.
(16:40):
I think often in coaching, we either duck that subject or fearfully
run around scared of what the answers might be.
I don't personally think it's complicated to find clients or people to work with but I dothink it takes work and it takes a bit of thinking and it's all about who do you want to
(17:00):
work with, where are you going to put the time and effort in.
So what was the book called again?
Show Your Work by Austin Cleon.
Yeah, it's quite a short book, but it's quite useful because it just talks about marketingstrategy at a very basic level, which is all about, know, who do you want to work with?
(17:22):
How are you going to work with them?
How are you going to keep it human so that they don't think you're completely imbecile andhassling them to the point you never want to hear from them ever again?
You know, all that sort of good stuff, which is which is what we hear repackaged over andover again.
I there's nothing new here, is there?
Relationship people buy from people they like and trust.
How do you build that trust in a scalable way that works for you and doesn't kind of wrungyou ragged creating content that you're you know, making sure you're actually doing the
(17:51):
things you enjoy doing in terms of content creation, which I think was really, has beenreally useful.
Yeah.
go on Kelly.
I was going to say, think what I took away from that particular book was, you know, takepeople with you on the journey of discovery, know, all the various bit of Lego bricks that
you collect on the way and sort of and just sort of, you know, share those, you know, sothat you're taking everybody with you.
(18:18):
So we were realising after we'd been reading these other books, actually, we probably wantto unpack these a bit more.
ah It is a journey, it is a journey that you go through, it's lifelong as well.
ah Yeah, it's, yeah, yeah, they're all related, all those books are related.
We can.
(18:38):
In the commercial break, I want to know what's the latest novel you've read.
Thank
You want to know now?
Go UKRA first, Kelly.
the novel is the commercial break.
Okay, right.
for me, I've been reading the whole of the Rivers of London series and I absolutely loveit.
(18:59):
I mean, it's the best ever.
I think I've told you about it's really good because I actually love it.
for those of you that haven't read it or have been exposed to it, it's Harry Potter meetsthe Metropolitan Police.
It's this concept that there is a secret part to the Metropolitan Police that is chargedwith managing weird beep, beep, beep.
That's the word they use in the book, but weird stuff, i.e.
And there's two individuals, one of them's who's been kicking around since the end of theSecond World War, and another one's a new recruit who basically didn't fit in anywhere
(19:24):
else and got recruited in.
But it's fascinating because you've got this blend between really well-researched policeprocedure with the overlay of this magical stuff going on.
And I love that kind of wrestling going on.
So it's a really interesting insight into the police, but at the same time, you've gotthis kind of mystical angle to it.
And it's got real people in it.
And that's the other thing, you know?
So that's what I've been reading.
(19:46):
And what are you reading?
My summer read, and I know some of your previous guests on the book corner are bit of afan as well, but I've got the latest Matt Haig book.
yeah, this one's The Life Impossible.
I think it came out about four weeks ago.
So June, June, July 2025.
(20:07):
And this one's set in Ibiza.
So it feels like a summer holiday read to me, but I love Matt Haig.
I love all of his kids' books.
My kids love them.
uh And I love all of his novels as well, they're great.
So my favourite one was The Humans.
Love that story.
It just has such imagination, different perspective and just way to look in at the worldthat you come away and just feel bigger and wiser in some fashion.
(20:35):
love that Hague, he's great.
nice nice I'm just reading in some who done it thing.
Who's it by?
Who did do it?
oh
I'm only on about page 20.
I recently read The Storyteller by Jodie Pickle that I thought was really fascinating.
that was, she really researches her books.
(20:58):
she, I mean, I don't like all her books.
She wrote one about Egypt that I didn't like at all, but it was very well researched.
This one was about a Holocaust survivor in America.
And it had different...
It jumps to and fro in time, which was really fascinating.
(21:19):
And it really made me think.
And I like novels that make me think.
I also like novels.
Well, I did start reading mythos and I have now I'm reading again.
It's back on my list.
Because he's written a brilliant book that's slightly older, is, think it's basicallyabout the one where Hitler gets murdered, but isn't born because someone sterilises his
(21:45):
parents.
And then how does that play out?
And it's just, I love the idea that actually it's thinking about you can't just take badstuff away if you don't take away the processes that make bad stuff happen.
Yeah.
thought it was fascinating.
The other author I met recently, which I absolutely love, was Carissa, oh what's her name?
She wrote her How to Train Your Dragon.
(22:07):
So she is just so awesome and I'm absolutely convinced she's dyslexic, because the way shedescribed it, because she's got a character in her book The Wizards of Once, who is a
dyslexic female who's absolutely awesome and I think it's her.
But she just talked about the whole process of writing some of this stuff.
She basically spent every summer holiday on an island with no electricity, one house thather family stayed in and the whole How to Drain Your Dragon stuff is written around stuff
(22:32):
that's on that island.
It's just amazing.
So she is incredible and she just talks about the whole process of storytelling, how youtake real things and add a bit of a twist of something unusual to it.
She's brilliant.
Nice.
I've also pre-ordered the new Richard Osman, um but that won't come out.
(22:52):
Well, apparently he's going back to Cooper's Chase.
For those of you listening around the world, Richard Osman has written a series of booksabout a retirement village.
And uh then he wrote another one about something else, We Solved Murders, and this nextone goes back.
(23:14):
to Cooper's Chase Retirement Village.
So very exciting.
I have it on pre-order so it will arrive the day it comes out.
Alright, it's so exciting.
Yeah.
so now our commercial break is over let's go back to work and remember listeners we'd loveto hear from you and we'd love you to come to the book corner doesn't matter where you are
(23:37):
in the world yeah bring a friend and tell us what you're reading so Kelly you're the onewho's got the stash in front of you what's the next one on your list?
So you say that that is that is my summer read but my slightly more it might feed intowhat I do is actually this lovely book that I picked up in one of the museums in Cambridge
(24:04):
where I live um and it's been designed around the earth shot awards.
It's really, I think it's designed to be for teenagers, but just to be sort of thinkingabout, oh, it's a handbook for dreamers and thinkers.
(24:25):
And it's by Johnny Hughes and Colin Butterfield.
So it's about solutions to repair our planet.
And it just, it feels like it's going to be a really lovely read.
This one I'm actually going to read with my kids and it's got a lovely kind of, you know,
content that feels like summer in it, you know, but it's got lots of different kind ofcase studies and different things that have been going on in different parts of the world,
(24:52):
but in really accessible, straightforward way that's not 7,000 pages of text.
So, yeah, so that's my next read and I'm going to see how that sort of feeds into the workthat I do.
Oh lovely.
Nathan you've got another one.
I have, yeah, so I went to the shelf because I totally realised it was a really good bookthat I had read a little while ago, which I thought would be good to mention, because I
(25:18):
think some books really influence us and we don't always realise the extent.
So this is a book that I read quite a years ago, but I do come back to quite a And it'scalled The Extraordinary Popular Delusions and The Madness of Crowds.
Now, why this book is really interesting is because it talks about, I guess you're awareof things like the South Sea Bubble, the tulip.
(25:41):
sort of, and the, what they call it, it was sort of this tulip movement in Holland wherebasically tulips became incredibly overvalued to the point where one guy actually was
sentenced to death for accidentally eating a tulip of high value.
And it's just this idea that human beings go through these constant cycles of boom andbust.
(26:02):
And we saw it in the dot com boom, we saw it in the sub prime market, and we'll see itagain in the next thing.
And I think.
The thing that really influenced me about this book, very in mind this book is quite anold book now, is that the same cycles exist.
The same cycles exist and they don't go away.
We are fools if we think they change because human beings fundamentally behave the same.
(26:24):
They go through this cycle of making things more and more more valuable with things thatintrinsically don't have that value.
And the way I like to think about is eventually you run out of mugs who are prepared topay that value and suddenly the price drops.
we see that in all sorts of things and I wonder if we may see it in some of the spaces weoperate in sometimes about certain things and certain offers.
(26:44):
So I just I think we're fools if we don't learn the lessons of history and that's one ofthe I guess one of the books for me that really kind of banged that home in a big way.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So what's the one you're reading at the moment?
At the moment I'm reading a that you'd actually asked me to look at.
(27:07):
together we're not reading a book at the moment actually because we are in interregnum atthe moment.
We are waiting to start our next one.
Which is interesting.
inspiration at the moment, help me Nathan.
Yeah, so we've taken a little break there in terms of, because as could imagine it wasactually quite intense, which was good, but know work took over for a bit.
But we are, think the plan is to get back together towards the end of the year to startdoing some stuff again.
(27:33):
lovely.
please.
The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker.
this book?
Yes Nathan, I do mean the book you're holding in your hand.
do you mean, Claire?
What do you mean this one?
Yeah
I liked it so much I sent a copy to everyone in our team, you see.
(27:56):
But Nathan hadn't told me he'd already got it.
I knew I had it and I had it.
It sounded like a really good book.
I'll put it on my pile.
We'll take that recommendation Paul, that's very kind, I'll make him read it.
really good.
I've read the first chapter and I'm sitting on it, if that makes sense in terms of like...
(28:20):
about it is that some workbooks are quite a hard read.
And some workbooks are an easy read, but a hard application.
So it's a beautiful thing to read.
So the Art of Gathering is really beautifully, it's a beautiful book to read and thenyou've got to start thinking about it.
(28:41):
And I like that because it gives you a little bit of a flow before you have to go, ohgolly, now I need to think about this.
What are you learning from it Claire?
Yeah, go on, carry on.
it?
So I'm going to pick it up because it's got all my tensor marks in it and I can tell youwhat I'm learning from it.
I think what I like about it is...
(29:03):
It's close enough to what I believe about hosting as a coach and a facilitator that it'sdeeply challenging because I sort of agree with it and she sort of pushes it and it's like
she pushes it a bit further in different places.
So it's not like a new and radical different view where you've got to go, do I think thisis okay or not?
(29:30):
It's...
Yeah, it's a lot of sense making and a lot of potential for disruption.
So for example, she's talking about inclusion.
So she says, Barack Obama's aunt once told him, if everyone is family, no one is family.
(29:55):
It's blood that makes a tribe, a border that makes a nation.
The same is true of gatherings.
So here is a corollary to his aunt saying, if everyone is invited, no one is invited inthe sense of being truly held by the group.
By closing the door, you create the room.
And then you kind of go.
(30:20):
It's full of those kind of things where you go, well, of course, and then and what if andbecause and all of those things.
Yeah, so there's bits there abouts or boundaries, isn't there, and just being in oroutside that boundary.
Yeah.
So belonging without othering is more philosophical, whereas this is more practical.
(30:48):
Yeah.
What have you done differently so far in DJing?
very challenging question.
Can I just tell you our listeners love it when guests turn the table on me.
I get lots of emails going I really like that episode.
Well first of all I sent it to my team.
(31:10):
because the authors sound really rich.
in the middle of writing a chapter in a book and realized that the coach is host.
And that's really got me thinking about we are the host.
So it's their space and yet we're the host.
(31:33):
So that's a sort of emerging thing and that will come out through hundreds ofconversations.
and I'll probably know what I think about under conversations time.
But there's a real, there's a, yeah, there's a sense making and also um some just reallygood practical stuff.
(31:58):
Like when you're hosting, don't start with the notices.
I like that level of practical.
uh
in my training and we're on site or online, I don't start by saying we're going to have abreak at the top of the hour.
We need to start by being purposeful and being what we're here for.
(32:18):
We can talk about the fire exits five minutes or 10 minutes in, but if that's what youstart with, you lose something of the soul of the gathering and what the gathering is for.
And she does quite a lot of work around pre-gatherings.
So the night before gathering of the thing.
And the other thing that I've done is I went to a nine others dinner, which I'veinterviewed Katie from Neither and Others on a previous podcast.
(32:49):
And that's a gathering meal.
And there's some real connections between what Priya Parker says and what the nine othersdinner was like.
So I went to one a few weeks ago and that was really fantastic.
And I actually made a really big decision as a result of it.
What do you think listeners, should I ask Claire what the decision is?
(33:12):
Excellent.
The trailer.
sign an NDA Clare.
Sorry, sorry, Kelly.
at some point but not today.
Yeah.
I mean I just read the first chapter Claire and I was just really struck by the whole, Idon't know it's all basic in some sense, but the whole why bit, why are we gathering?
it's particularly, mean because some of the work I do is around meetings seems to be thefavourite, I know there's people that specialise this, but it seems to be a theme that
(33:39):
comes up over and over again, particularly with some of the work I do around academicinstitutions and non-for-profits.
I don't know why non-for-profits particularly, but they seem to like meetings and lots ofpeople spend an awful lot of time in them.
People don't remember the why.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you're not hot on the wire, then you end up in a bit of a mess, think, sometimes.
(33:59):
Yeah, Purpose of the meeting and why am I here?
What's my role?
Yeah.
90 % of their work is in the prep.
Well, the pre in the pre arriving, so it talks a lot about inviting.
What does it say in the invitation?
How do we invite?
What what do we put in place?
(34:20):
It's real and then accept that there is an end.
Yeah.
which of course is really important for coaching and podcasts.
Yeah, and I think that what I was going to say, that's a great hint, Clare, and I likethat, but...
But it was interesting you mentioned that, got a few...
All I was going to say was I think anything you do, if you don't start with the end inmind, then how could you make yourself redundant and irrelevant?
(34:46):
Because actually, if you fulfilled your purpose, surely that's the whole point.
Yeah.
Yeah, and you need to end and not overextend just because you think you haven't quitefinished because you probably have.
I didn't mean that.
That wasn't a...
So...
The love in the room.
(35:08):
Lovely listeners who've stayed till the end.
I've not gone, these three are completely bonkers, let me switch them off.
uh Kelly, how do people get in touch with you if they want to talk to you?
Oh, so I'm on, as most of us are on LinkedIn.
They can always track me down on LinkedIn.
(35:28):
It's quite easy to find me, given my surname.
So that's probably the best place to get in touch with me actually.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Nathan?
Same with me actually, LinkedIn or the website, whichever you, or 3D, you can get methrough 3D as well, so.
Marvellous.
So Kelly Drewery, Nathan Whitbread, thank you for coming to The Coaching Inn.
(35:51):
Thank you everybody for listening and really seriously, we would absolutely love to hearfrom you and a friend or two or three friends and come to a future episode of the book
corner at The Coaching Inn.
Or you could come to a podcast corner if podcast is your preference.
uh So thank you all for listening.
(36:11):
We'll be back next week with another episode.
Bye bye.
Bye.
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