Kim Witten and Nathan Whitbread are back with Claire to update us with where they are with their upcoming book 'Lens Not Label'. The book will be published in November 2026 and explores working with neurodivergent individuals in various settings, including coaching and the workplace. We discuss the importance of understanding and embracing neurodiversity, sharing our personal insights and experiences. Awareness and empathy are critical in fostering inclusive environments.
Keep up to date as we are writing through https://lensnotlabel.substack.com/
Once a week we will be choosing someone to be a beta reader. If you’d like to do that, please email claire@3dcoaching.com with the title BETAREADER sharing the reason you think this would be fun!
Contact:
- Contact Nathan and Kim through Linked In
- Contact Claire by emailing info@3dcoaching.com or check out our Substack where you can talk with other listeners.
Further Information:
- Subscribe or follow The Coaching Inn on your podcast platform or our YouTube Channel to hear or see new episodes as they drop.
- Find out more about 3D Coaching and get new ideas and offers in our weekly email.
Coming Up:
- Open Table - Who we were and who we are becoming
Keywords:
neurodiversity, coaching, Lens Not Label, neurodivergent, workplace inclusion, leadership, podcast, understanding neurodivergence, empowerment, diversity, inclusion, mental health, coaching strategies, neurodivergent voices, book release, personal development, team dynamics, communication, empathy, awareness
We love having a variety of guests join us! Please remember that inviting someone to participate does not mean we necessarily endorse their views or opinions. We believe in open conversation and sharing different perspectives.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hello, this week's episode uh is with me, Kim and Nathan picking up on where we are withour new book coming out in November 2026 called Lens Not Label about working with people
who are neurodivergent.
So there's lots of thinking, an update, an invitation inside of our heads.
(00:22):
And if you work with people, then I hope this is a really useful episode for you and wouldlove to hear your comments, questions.
in the show notes or by going to our Substack for the book, is called Lens Not Label.
So really looking forward to hearing how this episode lands with you.
(00:56):
Hello and welcome to The Coaching Inn.
I'm your host, Claire Pedrick, and today the book writing team are back.
So you may know that I'm writing a new book, which is coming out.
We've just got this amazing news.
It's coming out in November, 2026.
And I am writing it together with Nathan Whitbread and Kim Witten.
(01:21):
Nathan and Kim, welcome back.
Good to be back.
Yeah, thanks Claire.
em
you lovely listeners, we are in spaces like this a lot.
So we just thought we'd be in a space like this today and that we would um invite you intoit.
So Kim, the title and the subject.
(01:46):
So the title is currently Lens Not Label.
That's the title that we're going with.
We are working out the subtitle, which is very important.
And I'll let one of you share why that is.
I can share if you want to.
So one of the things that we've been learning is that the title does some of the work butthe really heavy lifting is done by the subtitle.
(02:09):
Actually why do you want to pick this book up?
Why is it going to be useful?
How is it going to transform the way you do something or not?
So getting it right and getting the wording and making it relevant, important, clearenough.
that that's easy to understand is really important for us.
(02:29):
So we're looking for some help with getting it right.
Yeah, and isn't it interesting that this book has been incubating two years?
And so it's about working with people who are neurodivergent, lovely listeners, and whichwe hope you understood from the title of this episode, because we're trying to get good at
(02:55):
titles.
And what we've realised is that
that we finally found a voice that is speaking to anybody who works with people who areneurodivergent, not just coaches.
So before we talk about possible subtitles and invite our listeners into the chaos that isour creative minds.
(03:22):
There was a post I saw on LinkedIn yesterday that where somebody went, well, isn'teverybody neurodivergent?
And why are you making a thing about it?
And why are you writing a book about it?
What a question.
I was very pleased with my answer, but I'd love to hear what yours would be.
Shall I have a quick go?
(03:45):
So it's an interesting one, it does come up because it's everyone a little bit autistic,everyone a little bit ADHD and there's everyone a little bit whatever, put in the words
that you see fit.
And I think the problem with that idea is that it kind of misses the point.
And the point being that from all the work that I've done in this space, there is...
(04:11):
often to always a cost involved with some of these things.
And that cost can look like additional energy, processing, shame, all the rest of it.
I there's a load.
It's different.
It turns up for different people how this looks like.
But it's not just about being a little bit quirky.
That quirkiness or that perceived quirkiness often comes from a space of, don'tunderstand.
(04:36):
I'm finding it really hard to manage.
I'm finding it really hard to be in this environment.
And I'm having to do loads of extra things to try and get good enough to kind of be.
even if that good enough to be isn't still good enough and you get into this, I mean, toget to this whole thing.
So I would always argue, I think we're all neurodiverse.
I will all think differently.
(04:58):
We all come from different spaces, but to be neurodivergent or neuro spicy or whateverterm you want to use, you're generally talking about a bit more different and there's, and
I would always argue there's generally a cost involved in terms of what that means for youpersonally.
And that could look like, for example, when I finished work,
lie down on the sofa and I don't get up again for four hours because I'm so exhausted fromoperating.
(05:24):
Thank you Nathan for describing my evening every day.
You've just outed me!
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to, I wasn't.
There was no particular example used there.
and then after four hours, go to bed.
So yeah, welcome to my life.
(05:46):
I love what you said about cost because those neurodivergent supervision groups that I runfor coaches who are neurodivergent, some people have said to me, I don't have a diagnosis.
And I say, well, let's have a chat.
And when we have a chat, I'm noticing the cost.
And it's really, you can, it comes very quickly actually when you start talking, I think,or it doesn't.
(06:12):
And my deciding mechanism or my invitational mechanism is actually how much pain has therebeen for this person in this journey about being what they perceive to be neurodivergent.
Yeah, and I think if we all look at the different uh aspects or features, we're all gonnafind that we have traits.
(06:38):
But I think the difference is a matter of degree and impact and like you say, cost tothat.
And that's what separates.
I think that the...
That's the answer to that question of like, well, aren't we all a little bit?
And it's like, well, yes, we all have traits, but, you know, to what degree, what does thewhole picture look like when you look at all of these uh as a whole and how that impacts
(07:08):
you as you move through your day and days?
Because each thing, if there's a cost, is a little bit heavy.
And there's a little bit, and the one thing isn't heavy, is it?
But it's the one thing and the next thing and the next thing and the next thing that makesthe thing a weight to carry at all times.
(07:28):
I was talking to my husband yesterday, actually, and saying how I think I'm managing myenergy so differently in the year that I've known I've got ADHD.
That was yesterday.
Today, I'm preparing myself for a conversation with somebody who's going to say, we wantto go live on this thing, Claire.
(07:49):
And I'm going to have to say to them, I look really professional on the outside, but youneed to know that the back office was created by me, and therefore, it's not ready to
sustain the beautiful impact of this webinar that we want to put on.
Because it was created by...
(08:10):
by somebody who didn't know they were neurodivergent.
And it's very chaotic and it's got lots of holes in it and we're working on it.
And I didn't know, you know, I didn't know.
And now I do know and what an interesting thing.
And that does feel different.
Yeah.
And it's interesting you talk about that Claire, because I'm really struck by this,because I think partnership is the key in all this space.
(08:35):
And there's a partnership that looks like I break things, I make mess, I create newthings.
But then partnering with, for example, some of our colleagues, think can mention Sue,she's great at being ordered and structured.
When she comes in and brings...
continuity and structure to the mess.
It's not saying the mess was bad, but the mess had to be created to work out what thestructure needed to be.
(09:02):
I don't know if that's a good way to articulate it, but I think that's where it, andthere's absolutely an uncomfortableness about that.
There's absolutely a pain in it's not good enough, but it never will be because we'realways iterating and moving forwards.
So sitting with that uncomfortableness and the mess and the mistakes that we might makeand having that be okay.
And part of the process even.
(09:24):
And so if you're coaching or managing or leading or living with or friends with someonewho's neurodivergent, you know, these are some of the things that happening on the inside
that you can't see until you see something else.
So let's think out loud.
(09:46):
I'm hoping by the time we broadcast this episode, we will have the subtitle.
and will share it with you in the show notes.
So let's just show the working out on our thinking about the subtitles.
Kim, you're leading on asking the world, what are we learning?
(10:06):
So we've got some subtitle ideas that we've been kicking around.
And by the time this airs, we will have settled on the subtitle, as you had said earlier.
Here are some of the ideas that we're thinking through um for subtitles.
So things like how to work with neurodivergent people without diagnosing, dismissing, orothering them.
(10:31):
A conversational guide for working with neurodivergent people more effectively.
getting the best out of neurodivergent talent and letting them get the best out of you, orvariation on that, getting the best out of neurodivergent talent so that they can get the
best out of you.
A new way to look at neurodiverse talent.
And there's many more too, but you can see we're staying in this theme of lenses, lensesover labels, lens not label is the main title.
(10:58):
And people have also ran with that theme as well and suggested.
uh
There was one idea that came up in the poll that's fantastic.
We might test this out further.
um What was it?
bringing neurodivergent brilliance into focus, you something like that.
(11:19):
So yeah, all of these ideas are really focusing on the theme of, uh well, partnership isone of the key ideas of the book, simplicity, uh bringing that awareness so that people
don't need to do so much.
They can use what they have, uh work with people in partnership.
(11:41):
uh
And it's more of a symbiotic relationship than let's say a power over relationship, whereyou're the manager and you're trying to extract something.
That's not what we're going with here.
Do one of you want to elaborate more on that?
I just had another idea.
If you mash up two of those, you get a conversational guide to bringing neurodivergentbrilliance into focus.
(12:11):
That feels quite long, but it also feels quite true.
Yes, I agree.
And that conversational guide is a key piece, right?
That this isn't an instruction manual, this isn't a, what are the other things?
My mind's going blank, but it's more conversational in what it does and how we're offeringit.
(12:32):
Yeah, because it's a conversation about how to have conversations, but it's not ablueprint you're to stick down and go, I need to turn to page 53 for this conversation.
It's it's a way of beginning.
I think that's the really important thing that we want to do here is
we have never met the person you're going to be talking to.
We've never met you probably, well we have, but I don't know.
(12:54):
But ultimately you will have a different conversation and some of this stuff will behelpful, we hope it is, and some of the stuff you'll have to set aside and say this isn't
relevant to what I'm doing now.
But hopefully it will inform the choices that you make.
Yeah.
And the whole ethos, lovely listener, is about awareness rather than about being anexpert.
So Nathan and I had a conversation with an organisation yesterday who are commissioning usto run some coach training, which they want their people to use with neurodivergent staff.
(13:25):
And they were talking about then having a neurodiversity coach come and teach them how tobe neurodivergent coaches, neurodiversity coaches.
And what we were saying to them was, if you can have a really great conversation inpartnership, you don't need to do something special because every conversation.
So when we train coaches, every conversation is unique and individual and they all lookdifferent.
(13:49):
So a conversation with somebody who's neurodivergent will look different from someconversation with somebody who's.
called Wayne.
you
Because obviously there's no one in the world called Wayne who's newer to Virgin just likefor the record here.
a conversation with somebody who lives in Australia, which will look different from aconversation with somebody who lives in London, which because, because, and then
(14:20):
everybody's got intersections, but everybody's different.
so it's really pushing the philosophy that everybody is different and that there'ssomething about confidently and in partnership.
having a really good conversation with somebody and not making the neurodivergent thing bea big thing that paralyzes us and makes us go, you need a specialist for this.
(14:52):
Yeah.
And the other thing we did in that conversation, so we talked about actually what who's inyour cohort matters.
Because if you're going to do loads of work together in terms of.
Practice and we know that there's something like 20 % of the UK workforce.
At least if not more in some sectors are, you know, have neurodivergent traits, then we'regoing to be going live.
(15:15):
And if you can do that in a safe space where you've already done the practice.
What else do need to know really, I guess is the question.
So context matters.
People are all different from each other.
And people are different in, know, this person that you had a conversation with last week,it's going to be different when you have a conversation with them again, and within
(15:41):
ourselves as well.
What was the, I think it was Heraclitus that said you can't step in the same river twice.
Right?
It's like the river is always changing.
And so this book is a guide that goes with the river, adapts to this idea.
It's evergreen.
It adapts to this idea that we're always going to be different.
(16:05):
The conversation's always going to be different.
So this is something that's going to be timeless because we've been having conversationsfor eons and you've been having conversations your whole life.
But, you know.
that awareness about how to do it a little bit differently, a little bit better, a littlebit more effectively.
That's the key thing.
(16:25):
And also recognition of what you're already doing that's great sometimes because I think,you know, in the work that I've done, I often come across people who are saying what more
should I do?
How else should I be?
And actually what they're doing is great, but it's messy and it's hard.
And sometimes it doesn't feel very good, but it's still the right thing to do in terms ofhaving an open conversation about what we need to do next.
(16:46):
That's going to help us both move forwards.
Yeah, and knowing that feeling is okay.
Like, yeah, that's not evidence of a misstep.
This is what that looks like.
really struck because last month at the Coaching Inn we had Paul Taylor Pitt who wastalking about his book about still here, still queer, now what is the name?
(17:10):
I'm not sure I've got that in the right order but that's his book and he was talking aboutthe queer community don't have a generation of elders to follow because people's lives
were secret.
people were living secret lives.
(17:31):
And then there was AIDS and people died.
So the generation now of 50 something, the queer community now, particularly men, uh whowere in their 50s are the first generation.
So they're having to become their own elders.
And I think, I wonder whether there's something about that here and what we're talkingabout, because the number of people who were...
(17:58):
recognised and acknowledged for themselves that they were neurodivergent.
We didn't know, we were and we didn't know, so we didn't talk about it.
So there's a lack of eldership that enables, so it's been known for a long, you know, fora long, long, long, long time that people are dyslexic.
(18:22):
And it's been known that some people are whatever, autistic ADHD, whatever, highlysensitive.
But actually the number of people now in the world who are recognising that this is themis so much higher.
We don't have a role model to follow, I think.
have to be our own or see it in each other.
(18:45):
breadth of role models.
there's a few, isn't there?
it's like, but even, yeah, I I just sort of think about some of the names that get rolledout all the time, like Turing and Einstein, but they're all quite a particular type of
person, as opposed to...
always in retrospect.
Mmm.
So at the time.
(19:09):
I wonder what Einstein's life was like and how he engaged with the world.
One suck at a time as I understand it.
So interesting, isn't it?
So what else are we thinking about our subtitle?
(19:33):
Somebody pointed out that there was some labeling going on in some of the subtitle optionsthat we offered, which I thought was interesting and probably true.
And uh helped me to, got me thinking about how we might look at this differently.
And if the, cause I think it's one of the things that's key for us is to demonstrate whatwe mean by how we do it.
(20:01):
and all throughout, like how we write the book, how the book is laid out, obviously whatwe're saying and what we're sharing in it and the experience, but it comes down to the
little details too.
If we're saying lens not label, is there labeling going on that we're not seeing becausewe're so close to it?
(20:24):
Yes, and Neuro-something needs to be in the subtitle or nobody's going to know what it'sabout.
So it's tricky, isn't it?
It is.
Yeah.
was just thinking as you were talking about that, know, sort of, so Malcolm Gladwell wrotea book about, I remember which one it was, but he talked about some concept of thin
slicing, i.e.
the fact that we chop up things to make it easier for us to understand, because wecouldn't process the world because there's so much information coming at us all the time.
(20:49):
And I think that's where we sometimes label stuff and it's just, and that's not a badthing, but it's also a good thing to notice when you're doing it and when you're not doing
it.
And I think there's an intentionality that has to be around saying, I need to stop now.
to work out what we're doing and then we can agree what that needs to look like so we canmove forwards.
(21:09):
I think you've made a really good point there too about like labels are useful.
They can be useful up to a point, maybe they're useful till they're, they're not.
we're not saying don't have labels, you know, or don't use labels, but you know, beingaware of when might it be useful to go with the label metaphor.
(21:31):
and switch it to lens or something else.
It's like any model, any metaphor, all of them are useful up to a point, all of them arewrong.
Yeah, absolutely.
We talked about spoons the other day.
Sorry, don't know this is too tangential, but, you know, Kim brought up this brilliantarticle that really said, actually, is spoon theory okay?
(21:55):
Because does it does it actually just make turn a real issue around energy management intosomething that's now in a lovely little box that says, lovely to meet you today, Kim, I
know you've got five spoons and you've obviously used two of them.
So I guess you're okay to do what we want to do now.
tell us about spoon theory, Nathan.
Oh sorry yeah, so I've rushed ahead there and I've slowed down.
So spoon theory is just this concept of energy related to spoons and I like to think aboutlike a cutlery jar you know you've got your cutlery jar of spoons every morning and you
(22:24):
get given a new batch of spoons that have been through the dishwasher that are lovely andclean and you can use them throughout the day but you can't wash them again they go in the
dishwasher and at the end of the day
they then get washed and then you can then use them again the next day.
So every time you do an activity it uses a certain number of these metaphorical spoons.
Now some of the theories talks about as well that sometimes you borrow spoons fromtomorrow because actually what you're doing is so massive and we don't always recognize
(22:53):
when that's happening.
And when you've kind of run out, you've run out and that's it.
You're kind of, you're in that space of I'm on life support, not literally, but in termsof like being able to function the way we'd like to function.
Now the argument that went against was that that kind of categorizes and puts people inquite a distinct box.
If you start to apply that theory quite rigidly to a person, a human being who lives,breathes and is wonderful and unique and brilliantly made and all the rest of it.
(23:21):
And I was just sort of, and I was resting with that because part of me really likes theidea of spoon thing, but then that challenge was really helpful because he said, well,
actually what the missing bit is, we don't know how many spoons someone has until we askedthem.
And they may not know either.
And that may be an ongoing conversation.
And just because they've had a five spoon day today, they might have a two spoon daytomorrow and a 25 spoon day, day after.
(23:45):
And I think particularly in this space, often
the individual doesn't know and if they don't know you sometimes get into this weird sortof space where someone else thinks they know but they don't know is that helpful enough uh
about when is something useful for me if I notice it for myself and when is it not helpfulfor me when somebody else tells me.
(24:13):
You
And that's about agency, isn't it?
It's about my art as individuals, as human beings, how much freedom, flexibility,permission do we have to consider what we know already and put it into practice?
(24:33):
And actually that's true in coaching a lot, isn't it?
That often what we're exploring is that the person may have it inside them.
Asking them what they know already isn't always a great question because they may not beable to access it in the moment.
And then you just know what they know already and they don't know anything new.
That's kind of different conversation.
But I think there is something about...
(24:55):
So for me personally, understanding that energy thing goes back to being a little bitcompassionate when I lie on the sofa for four hours and then go to bed.
But if you said to me, many spoons have you got today, I wouldn't be able to answer thatquestion.
even right now.
And you shouldn't have to in some ways because actually it's just an idea.
(25:17):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And that's the thing, isn't it?
Because you can talk about a concept, but there's a difference between then applying it,if you applying it literally and just understanding there's a concept there.
Yeah, and I think that concept has some baked in assumptions that don't really work.
So it's, it assumes that you can access this information, you know, about where yourenergy is at.
(25:43):
And if you have, you know, challenges with that, or alexithymia, you know, you might notreadily understand or recognize or be able to name label your internal states.
It also assumes that the
that the spoons can't be replenished, you know, various things.
So this is some of the backlash against the spoon theory recently is people recognizingthis.
(26:07):
And that's only possible because when the idea was first presented, it started thisdiscussion.
And this is the great thing about that theory is it started this
this new discussion and awareness around disability, around energy, around all of thesethings.
And because that discussion was started as a result of the theory, we've evolved it tothis point.
(26:29):
Now we're like, yeah, it has all these limitations and problems.
And so what a wonderful thing that we got to this point because of that.
Yeah, love it.
Yeah, and one of the awareness things that comes out of that is that people may be able todo a whole load of things, but they may not be able to do them at any all the time or at
(26:49):
any particular time.
Can we?
So I just had a spoon thing because you've got dessert spoons, tablespoons and teaspoonsand obviously different spoons for different jobs.
And so often we think we've got a bucket load of dessert spoons when we need to mix thetea.
Sorry.
Can I just say there's a thing on Facebook that actually I think nails the issue that wehave, which is a picture of different kinds of spoons.
(27:14):
And it says, people with ADHD all pick the same spoon, which one is it?
And I think that is such a great example that we are bombarded with information that isnot information.
That is just...
oh this is a good thing and I'm going to get lots of likes and follows and now people areall gonna think it's a thing and then and then you look at it and you think I chose the
(27:41):
wrong spoon maybe I don't have ADHD after all and it just it just wastes such an amount ofinformation
say about me?
And of course, some people who are neurodivergent will then just go off and lose totaltrack of the thing they were doing and now be thinking about spoons all day.
(28:03):
Can we just go back to where you said alexithymia?
What does that mean?
Yeah, so I might get this wrong.
So correct me, Nathan, you probably know better than I do, both of you.
But this is the awareness of your ability to identify your um feelings, internal states,kind of what's going on with your body.
(28:25):
And for many neurodivergent people, this is a challenging.
thing is, you if you ask them, does that feel?
Or what are you feeling?
They won't be able to answer that, at least not immediately, you know, that might takesome time, if at all, to really kind of maybe in retrospect to go, yeah, this is, you
(28:47):
know, when I feel this in my body, or when this is happening in my body, it's mapped onto,you know, sadness or anxiety or whatever else.
I totally agree with that.
Brené Brown describes this beautifully in the Relatives to the Heart.
She sort of talks about this idea that you may be experiencing that feeling on a level 10,but only able to articulate a level two.
(29:09):
And of course, that's where we see sometimes when, so I should say sometimes, not always,but sometimes when we see some quite difficult situations, because if you're feeling
something massively, but don't have the language or the understanding to communicate that,that can be really difficult.
Mm-hmm.
I'm wondering where that goes in the book.
(29:34):
I see a possible way in.
And it ties back to what you were saying a minute ago about all this information and allthis, there's this kind of constant pressure, especially on social media to identify and
be able to name and present like, this is me, this is this, this is what I know.
(29:57):
And there's all these, you know, quizzes and tests and, and again, information that's notinformation.
And all of this points to that idea of expertise.
And maybe expertise isn't the point.
like, there's a difference between awareness and knowing and expertise and information inthat whole camp.
(30:20):
And I think we're wanting to make the argument for less of the, the categorization andidentification and more of the, the practical.
aware what do I need to do here?
What's going on?
What's happening in the moment?
But it raises a really interesting question for coaches who use somatics.
(30:47):
and might accidentally gently try and affix meaning to somebody who...
So, yes, thank you.
So somatics is about the feeling in the body.
It's about using the senses of the body as well as the thinking of the head.
So, you know, so much coach training talks about noticing...
(31:12):
I mean, in different ways about noticing whether somebody's thinking or whether they'refeeling, are they speaking from thinking language or feeling language?
And feeling might be about emotion.
And as more as there's more awareness of semantics and as it's clear that connectingwhat's going on in our body is useful in terms of connecting what's going on in our head,
(31:37):
increasingly coaches are saying, where are you feeling that in your body?
Which is a great question.
But from what we've just said, the art of that is not to make a judgment when somebodygoes, don't know.
Because that doesn't mean they don't know.
It might mean they don't know, but it might also mean I don't know now, or I can'tarticulate it now.
(32:02):
Which opens the whole thing up even bigger, which is...
Everyone we work with as an individual and we need to work differently with everyone.
And we can't work with them the same next week as we did this week, which is kind of,which is kind of the point of the book.
You've read it now listeners, by the way.
(32:23):
Yeah.
Just wanted to say something.
Yeah.
I wanted to add something to the somatic.
piece because I just I found what you said so relatable and I find the somatic like for mepersonally, it's it's a bit impenetrable and and it feels like when I'm in a session or
(32:44):
I'm you know, I've definitely been in coaching sessions with other coaches or group thingsthat have this somatic approach and for me personally, it's it feels like advanced level,
you know, just it feels like
you know, graduate level coaching or something.
It's so, I find it so challenging.
(33:06):
And there's this added pressure of if somebody asks me how I feel, I don't want to say, Idon't know.
You know, it's...
It feels as though there'll be a judgment on that.
Yeah, how could I not know?
Yeah, that question.
(33:27):
a horrible question in that moment, isn't it?
It is, and if you didn't know, well then I'd be able to answer your question.
Yeah.
something here about masking as well and what I mean by that is so if I could talk aboutme so I know for me there's often a divide particularly in professional context between
(33:50):
what I'm feeling inside and what I'm prepared to.
share.
show or present and I know we've both had conversations where that mask comes tumblingdown once trust is formed and different types of conversations happen and it's just
there's but I think sometimes if we're not careful
(34:16):
we can support that to happen and it's not safe enough.
Yeah, because the art is that we've got to know that absolutely nothing will be done withthe thing that we're about to disclose with the mask off.
That it's not going to impact us.
Can I?
Sorry I'm really interested in this.
(34:37):
So this morning when I was doing my exercises from my trainer she's going, so she's on alittle video, she's going feel it in your hamstring and I'm going well but I can't.
I'm just wondering whether I don't have a hamstring or whether that's alexithonia or
(35:01):
feel it somewhere else Claire can I ask?
What do mean, was I stretching the wrong bit?
No, no, not the wrong bit because and the reason why I go with this is because so I'vebeen doing some gymnastics for a while and I get to hang out with some incredibly flexible
fit people and they do these stretches they go.
I know I'm not saying it's you but but as I'm doing this stuff I'm going with that I can'teven feel that there because I can't even get in the position to start to do that but I
(35:25):
will try but it's completely different because I'm opening up something different which isunrelated because I'm not even there to do the thing they want me to do yet and that's
fine I don't know if that's
I can feel some of them, that some of them I think, I'm sure you're right that I'm tryingto do this to do that, but it's not happening.
prep stuff, it takes time but it's great.
(35:46):
yeah.
Or if you're like me and you're extremely hypermobile, it's, you're not going to ever feelit anyway, cause you're, you're stretching so far past, you know, what, what you need.
And so that it's just, which is the whole problem.
And the reason why I'm doing the exercises is to learn how to, to bring it back to asensible level of stretch.
(36:09):
So everybody's different and we're all struggling for these different reasons.
did I cut across your story Claire?
I realised that you were done.
Are sure?
just, I was just reaching out for help.
you
There's two words that came up in this conversation that we haven't said this, but we feltreally resonant is this idea of curiosity and kindness.
(36:30):
Yeah.
And there's also, I have a whole page of notes, so I'm about to batten down the hatchesfor another whole week's writing in my cupboard.
Nobody come in.
The writing cupboard.
Nobody give me any new ideas Nathan!
(36:53):
We're going dark aren't we?
uh
And I've just got a whole load of other things to, of lenses actually, to look at somestuff through, which is a really useful thing.
Lovely listeners.
One of the challenges about this book, I think, is that there are so many things we couldput in and we're trying to make it readable and useful and also recognise that there's a
(37:20):
boundary.
There are some principles that are useful, which you'll find in the book.
So as we're coming to the end of our conversation, I've had an idea of what will motivatepeople to look in the show notes.
Look in the show notes to find the subtitle we have chosen.
(37:43):
That probably means you can pre-order the book now.
ah If you can, we'll put the link there.
As soon as it's available for pre-order, we'll put the link.
in the show notes to this episode, because you may be listening to it six months a year,five years after we've recorded it, which is a lovely thing.
ah If you're listening to this in five years time, in 2030, just know that we've learned alot since we recorded this episode.
(38:07):
You
So find out where we are now by chasing us on some kind of social media or websites andthings, and then you'll discover what we think now that we didn't think when we recorded
it today.
and ask us about spoons and what we think about spoons, because I'm sure that will evolveby then.
ah Check out the subtitle in the show notes and uh send us an email.
(38:36):
Once a week for five weeks we're going to choose one of you to be a beta reader.
So contact us, look in the show notes, do what the instructions in the show notes say.
And uh once a week for the next five weeks, we're going to choose uh one of you to be abeta reader and we'll put you in our beta reader.
(39:02):
special thing.
Will you update the show notes once that five weeks is over, Claire So?
eh
that to delete what's in the show notes.
So lovely listener, you don't go there with such a hope.
But of course you could buy the book if you're listening after November, 2026.
(39:24):
And it's called Lens Not Label and is available in all major book online places.
How weird is that?
All that time travel!
I need to go lie down on the couch for four hours.
I'll be with Doctor Who.
(39:45):
gone to 2030, now about 2025.
So we need to wrap this up, Nathan and Kim and lovely listener, because this is what ourwriting meetings are like, which is probably why, lovely listener, you get a little bit of
a sense why it's taken us so long to quite get ourselves in gear, but we are now in gear.
(40:05):
So Kim, how would you like us to finish?
How would you like to finish?
Hahaha
I'd love to offer a question or a prompt to the readers, to listeners and readers, futurereaders, to think about.
I don't know what that is though.
(40:28):
Let's talk to Nathan and maybe you'll work it out.
Nathan, what is your ending thing?
ending?
I just wanted to encourage you that this type of conversation is something you can havewith other people you know and actually one thing we've learned about writing this book is
that we are different yet similar.
(40:49):
We're passionately committed to trying to do something together, we've done it withcuriosity and kindness and I would just encourage anyone who's listening, thinking about
this stuff, however far in the future that may be, to never stop exploring.
Thank
Have you got it, Kim?
(41:10):
No, I was captivated by what Nathan was saying.
He said it best.
Maybe it's, know, oh think of somebody in mind that you can start having this kind ofconversation, a different kind of conversation with who might be a safer person to try
out, you know, talking about some of these ideas if there was something that intriguedyou.
(41:39):
Thank you.
Thank you, lovely listener, for jumping into our conversation.
And we hope there's been some useful stuff in it for you.
And think about one thing that you're taking away from what we've said that might be auseful lens to look through in a conversation with somebody who is or, yeah, just who is
(42:03):
different from you.
They don't have to be neurodivergent.
They just could be different from you.
oh
Because if we're going to work with people who are different, we need to work in slightlydifferent ways and we can't learn how many people live in the planet.
8 billion?
We can't learn eight billion or whatever it is ways of having conversations becauseactually we can learn some simple ways of having conversations in partnership that begin
(42:28):
to enable us to have conversations with more people.
Maybe not eight billion, but you never know.
lot of talking.
not wildly off.
Well doesn't matter because it's a lot.
And also you can have more than one conversation that will be different with the sameperson so then you get into all sorts of issues.
then you get to bigger numbers.
(42:48):
That's true.
OK, so we're talking about partnership conversations.
Let's go back to the to the doable, easy end of that.
Partnership conversations come from co-creating every conversation with an individual sothat we're doing something that's serving them and serving the purpose of the conversation
and that is useful and that we agree together how we're going to do that.
(43:12):
And that really matters.
Thank you, Kim.
Witton, thank you Nathan Whitbread.
Thank you lovely listener for listening.
We'll be back next week with another episode that will be much calmer than this.
And we're very grateful and delighted that you have been in our company for the last 40minutes.
(43:33):
Thank you for coming.
Bye bye.
Hello, this week's episode uh is with me, Kim and Nathan picking up on where we are withour new book coming out in November 2026 called Lens Not Label about working with people
who are neurodivergent.
So there's lots of thinking, an update, an invitation inside of our heads.
(00:22):
And if you work with people, then I hope this is a really useful episode for you and wouldlove to hear your comments, questions.
in the show notes or by going to our Substack for the book, is called Lens Not Label.
So really looking forward to hearing how this episode lands with you.
(00:56):
Hello and welcome to The Coaching Inn.
I'm your host, Claire Pedrick, and today the book writing team are back.
So you may know that I'm writing a new book, which is coming out.
We've just got this amazing news.
It's coming out in November, 2026.
And I am writing it together with Nathan Whitbread and Kim Witten.
(01:21):
Nathan and Kim, welcome back.
Good to be back.
Yeah, thanks Claire.
em
you lovely listeners, we are in spaces like this a lot.
So we just thought we'd be in a space like this today and that we would um invite you intoit.
So Kim, the title and the subject.
(01:46):
So the title is currently Lens Not Label.
That's the title that we're going with.
We are working out the subtitle, which is very important.
And I'll let one of you share why that is.
I can share if you want to.
So one of the things that we've been learning is that the title does some of the work butthe really heavy lifting is done by the subtitle.
(02:09):
Actually why do you want to pick this book up?
Why is it going to be useful?
How is it going to transform the way you do something or not?
So getting it right and getting the wording and making it relevant, important, clearenough.
that that's easy to understand is really important for us.
(02:29):
So we're looking for some help with getting it right.
Yeah, and isn't it interesting that this book has been incubating two years?
And so it's about working with people who are neurodivergent, lovely listeners, and whichwe hope you understood from the title of this episode, because we're trying to get good at
(02:55):
titles.
And what we've realised is that
that we finally found a voice that is speaking to anybody who works with people who areneurodivergent, not just coaches.
So before we talk about possible subtitles and invite our listeners into the chaos that isour creative minds.
(03:22):
There was a post I saw on LinkedIn yesterday that where somebody went, well, isn'teverybody neurodivergent?
And why are you making a thing about it?
And why are you writing a book about it?
What a question.
I was very pleased with my answer, but I'd love to hear what yours would be.
Shall I have a quick go?
(03:45):
So it's an interesting one, it does come up because it's everyone a little bit autistic,everyone a little bit ADHD and there's everyone a little bit whatever, put in the words
that you see fit.
And I think the problem with that idea is that it kind of misses the point.
And the point being that from all the work that I've done in this space, there is...
(04:11):
often to always a cost involved with some of these things.
And that cost can look like additional energy, processing, shame, all the rest of it.
I there's a load.
It's different.
It turns up for different people how this looks like.
But it's not just about being a little bit quirky.
That quirkiness or that perceived quirkiness often comes from a space of, don'tunderstand.
(04:36):
I'm finding it really hard to manage.
I'm finding it really hard to be in this environment.
And I'm having to do loads of extra things to try and get good enough to kind of be.
even if that good enough to be isn't still good enough and you get into this, I mean, toget to this whole thing.
So I would always argue, I think we're all neurodiverse.
I will all think differently.
(04:58):
We all come from different spaces, but to be neurodivergent or neuro spicy or whateverterm you want to use, you're generally talking about a bit more different and there's, and
I would always argue there's generally a cost involved in terms of what that means for youpersonally.
And that could look like, for example, when I finished work,
lie down on the sofa and I don't get up again for four hours because I'm so exhausted fromoperating.
(05:24):
Thank you Nathan for describing my evening every day.
You've just outed me!
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to, I wasn't.
There was no particular example used there.
and then after four hours, go to bed.
So yeah, welcome to my life.
(05:46):
I love what you said about cost because those neurodivergent supervision groups that I runfor coaches who are neurodivergent, some people have said to me, I don't have a diagnosis.
And I say, well, let's have a chat.
And when we have a chat, I'm noticing the cost.
And it's really, you can, it comes very quickly actually when you start talking, I think,or it doesn't.
(06:12):
And my deciding mechanism or my invitational mechanism is actually how much pain has therebeen for this person in this journey about being what they perceive to be neurodivergent.
Yeah, and I think if we all look at the different uh aspects or features, we're all gonnafind that we have traits.
(06:38):
But I think the difference is a matter of degree and impact and like you say, cost tothat.
And that's what separates.
I think that the...
That's the answer to that question of like, well, aren't we all a little bit?
And it's like, well, yes, we all have traits, but, you know, to what degree, what does thewhole picture look like when you look at all of these uh as a whole and how that impacts
(07:08):
you as you move through your day and days?
Because each thing, if there's a cost, is a little bit heavy.
And there's a little bit, and the one thing isn't heavy, is it?
But it's the one thing and the next thing and the next thing and the next thing that makesthe thing a weight to carry at all times.
(07:28):
I was talking to my husband yesterday, actually, and saying how I think I'm managing myenergy so differently in the year that I've known I've got ADHD.
That was yesterday.
Today, I'm preparing myself for a conversation with somebody who's going to say, we wantto go live on this thing, Claire.
(07:49):
And I'm going to have to say to them, I look really professional on the outside, but youneed to know that the back office was created by me, and therefore, it's not ready to
sustain the beautiful impact of this webinar that we want to put on.
Because it was created by...
(08:10):
by somebody who didn't know they were neurodivergent.
And it's very chaotic and it's got lots of holes in it and we're working on it.
And I didn't know, you know, I didn't know.
And now I do know and what an interesting thing.
And that does feel different.
Yeah.
And it's interesting you talk about that Claire, because I'm really struck by this,because I think partnership is the key in all this space.
(08:35):
And there's a partnership that looks like I break things, I make mess, I create newthings.
But then partnering with, for example, some of our colleagues, think can mention Sue,she's great at being ordered and structured.
When she comes in and brings...
continuity and structure to the mess.
It's not saying the mess was bad, but the mess had to be created to work out what thestructure needed to be.
(09:02):
I don't know if that's a good way to articulate it, but I think that's where it, andthere's absolutely an uncomfortableness about that.
There's absolutely a pain in it's not good enough, but it never will be because we'realways iterating and moving forwards.
So sitting with that uncomfortableness and the mess and the mistakes that we might makeand having that be okay.
And part of the process even.
(09:24):
And so if you're coaching or managing or leading or living with or friends with someonewho's neurodivergent, you know, these are some of the things that happening on the inside
that you can't see until you see something else.
So let's think out loud.
(09:46):
I'm hoping by the time we broadcast this episode, we will have the subtitle.
and will share it with you in the show notes.
So let's just show the working out on our thinking about the subtitles.
Kim, you're leading on asking the world, what are we learning?
(10:06):
So we've got some subtitle ideas that we've been kicking around.
And by the time this airs, we will have settled on the subtitle, as you had said earlier.
Here are some of the ideas that we're thinking through um for subtitles.
So things like how to work with neurodivergent people without diagnosing, dismissing, orothering them.
(10:31):
A conversational guide for working with neurodivergent people more effectively.
getting the best out of neurodivergent talent and letting them get the best out of you, orvariation on that, getting the best out of neurodivergent talent so that they can get the
best out of you.
A new way to look at neurodiverse talent.
And there's many more too, but you can see we're staying in this theme of lenses, lensesover labels, lens not label is the main title.
(10:58):
And people have also ran with that theme as well and suggested.
uh
There was one idea that came up in the poll that's fantastic.
We might test this out further.
um What was it?
bringing neurodivergent brilliance into focus, you something like that.
(11:19):
So yeah, all of these ideas are really focusing on the theme of, uh well, partnership isone of the key ideas of the book, simplicity, uh bringing that awareness so that people
don't need to do so much.
They can use what they have, uh work with people in partnership.
(11:41):
uh
And it's more of a symbiotic relationship than let's say a power over relationship, whereyou're the manager and you're trying to extract something.
That's not what we're going with here.
Do one of you want to elaborate more on that?
I just had another idea.
If you mash up two of those, you get a conversational guide to bringing neurodivergentbrilliance into focus.
(12:11):
That feels quite long, but it also feels quite true.
Yes, I agree.
And that conversational guide is a key piece, right?
That this isn't an instruction manual, this isn't a, what are the other things?
My mind's going blank, but it's more conversational in what it does and how we're offeringit.
(12:32):
Yeah, because it's a conversation about how to have conversations, but it's not ablueprint you're to stick down and go, I need to turn to page 53 for this conversation.
It's it's a way of beginning.
I think that's the really important thing that we want to do here is
we have never met the person you're going to be talking to.
We've never met you probably, well we have, but I don't know.
(12:54):
But ultimately you will have a different conversation and some of this stuff will behelpful, we hope it is, and some of the stuff you'll have to set aside and say this isn't
relevant to what I'm doing now.
But hopefully it will inform the choices that you make.
Yeah.
And the whole ethos, lovely listener, is about awareness rather than about being anexpert.
So Nathan and I had a conversation with an organisation yesterday who are commissioning usto run some coach training, which they want their people to use with neurodivergent staff.
(13:25):
And they were talking about then having a neurodiversity coach come and teach them how tobe neurodivergent coaches, neurodiversity coaches.
And what we were saying to them was, if you can have a really great conversation inpartnership, you don't need to do something special because every conversation.
So when we train coaches, every conversation is unique and individual and they all lookdifferent.
(13:49):
So a conversation with somebody who's neurodivergent will look different from someconversation with somebody who's.
called Wayne.
you
Because obviously there's no one in the world called Wayne who's newer to Virgin just likefor the record here.
a conversation with somebody who lives in Australia, which will look different from aconversation with somebody who lives in London, which because, because, and then
(14:20):
everybody's got intersections, but everybody's different.
so it's really pushing the philosophy that everybody is different and that there'ssomething about confidently and in partnership.
having a really good conversation with somebody and not making the neurodivergent thing bea big thing that paralyzes us and makes us go, you need a specialist for this.
(14:52):
Yeah.
And the other thing we did in that conversation, so we talked about actually what who's inyour cohort matters.
Because if you're going to do loads of work together in terms of.
Practice and we know that there's something like 20 % of the UK workforce.
At least if not more in some sectors are, you know, have neurodivergent traits, then we'regoing to be going live.
(15:15):
And if you can do that in a safe space where you've already done the practice.
What else do need to know really, I guess is the question.
So context matters.
People are all different from each other.
And people are different in, know, this person that you had a conversation with last week,it's going to be different when you have a conversation with them again, and within
(15:41):
ourselves as well.
What was the, I think it was Heraclitus that said you can't step in the same river twice.
Right?
It's like the river is always changing.
And so this book is a guide that goes with the river, adapts to this idea.
It's evergreen.
It adapts to this idea that we're always going to be different.
(16:05):
The conversation's always going to be different.
So this is something that's going to be timeless because we've been having conversationsfor eons and you've been having conversations your whole life.
But, you know.
that awareness about how to do it a little bit differently, a little bit better, a littlebit more effectively.
That's the key thing.
(16:25):
And also recognition of what you're already doing that's great sometimes because I think,you know, in the work that I've done, I often come across people who are saying what more
should I do?
How else should I be?
And actually what they're doing is great, but it's messy and it's hard.
And sometimes it doesn't feel very good, but it's still the right thing to do in terms ofhaving an open conversation about what we need to do next.
(16:46):
That's going to help us both move forwards.
Yeah, and knowing that feeling is okay.
Like, yeah, that's not evidence of a misstep.
This is what that looks like.
really struck because last month at the Coaching Inn we had Paul Taylor Pitt who wastalking about his book about still here, still queer, now what is the name?
(17:10):
I'm not sure I've got that in the right order but that's his book and he was talking aboutthe queer community don't have a generation of elders to follow because people's lives
were secret.
people were living secret lives.
(17:31):
And then there was AIDS and people died.
So the generation now of 50 something, the queer community now, particularly men, uh whowere in their 50s are the first generation.
So they're having to become their own elders.
And I think, I wonder whether there's something about that here and what we're talkingabout, because the number of people who were...
(17:58):
recognised and acknowledged for themselves that they were neurodivergent.
We didn't know, we were and we didn't know, so we didn't talk about it.
So there's a lack of eldership that enables, so it's been known for a long, you know, fora long, long, long, long time that people are dyslexic.
(18:22):
And it's been known that some people are whatever, autistic ADHD, whatever, highlysensitive.
But actually the number of people now in the world who are recognising that this is themis so much higher.
We don't have a role model to follow, I think.
have to be our own or see it in each other.
(18:45):
breadth of role models.
there's a few, isn't there?
it's like, but even, yeah, I I just sort of think about some of the names that get rolledout all the time, like Turing and Einstein, but they're all quite a particular type of
person, as opposed to...
always in retrospect.
Mmm.
So at the time.
(19:09):
I wonder what Einstein's life was like and how he engaged with the world.
One suck at a time as I understand it.
So interesting, isn't it?
So what else are we thinking about our subtitle?
(19:33):
Somebody pointed out that there was some labeling going on in some of the subtitle optionsthat we offered, which I thought was interesting and probably true.
And uh helped me to, got me thinking about how we might look at this differently.
And if the, cause I think it's one of the things that's key for us is to demonstrate whatwe mean by how we do it.
(20:01):
and all throughout, like how we write the book, how the book is laid out, obviously whatwe're saying and what we're sharing in it and the experience, but it comes down to the
little details too.
If we're saying lens not label, is there labeling going on that we're not seeing becausewe're so close to it?
(20:24):
Yes, and Neuro-something needs to be in the subtitle or nobody's going to know what it'sabout.
So it's tricky, isn't it?
It is.
Yeah.
was just thinking as you were talking about that, know, sort of, so Malcolm Gladwell wrotea book about, I remember which one it was, but he talked about some concept of thin
slicing, i.e.
the fact that we chop up things to make it easier for us to understand, because wecouldn't process the world because there's so much information coming at us all the time.
(20:49):
And I think that's where we sometimes label stuff and it's just, and that's not a badthing, but it's also a good thing to notice when you're doing it and when you're not doing
it.
And I think there's an intentionality that has to be around saying, I need to stop now.
to work out what we're doing and then we can agree what that needs to look like so we canmove forwards.
(21:09):
I think you've made a really good point there too about like labels are useful.
They can be useful up to a point, maybe they're useful till they're, they're not.
we're not saying don't have labels, you know, or don't use labels, but you know, beingaware of when might it be useful to go with the label metaphor.
(21:31):
and switch it to lens or something else.
It's like any model, any metaphor, all of them are useful up to a point, all of them arewrong.
Yeah, absolutely.
We talked about spoons the other day.
Sorry, don't know this is too tangential, but, you know, Kim brought up this brilliantarticle that really said, actually, is spoon theory okay?
(21:55):
Because does it does it actually just make turn a real issue around energy management intosomething that's now in a lovely little box that says, lovely to meet you today, Kim, I
know you've got five spoons and you've obviously used two of them.
So I guess you're okay to do what we want to do now.
tell us about spoon theory, Nathan.
Oh sorry yeah, so I've rushed ahead there and I've slowed down.
So spoon theory is just this concept of energy related to spoons and I like to think aboutlike a cutlery jar you know you've got your cutlery jar of spoons every morning and you
(22:24):
get given a new batch of spoons that have been through the dishwasher that are lovely andclean and you can use them throughout the day but you can't wash them again they go in the
dishwasher and at the end of the day
they then get washed and then you can then use them again the next day.
So every time you do an activity it uses a certain number of these metaphorical spoons.
Now some of the theories talks about as well that sometimes you borrow spoons fromtomorrow because actually what you're doing is so massive and we don't always recognize
(22:53):
when that's happening.
And when you've kind of run out, you've run out and that's it.
You're kind of, you're in that space of I'm on life support, not literally, but in termsof like being able to function the way we'd like to function.
Now the argument that went against was that that kind of categorizes and puts people inquite a distinct box.
If you start to apply that theory quite rigidly to a person, a human being who lives,breathes and is wonderful and unique and brilliantly made and all the rest of it.
(23:21):
And I was just sort of, and I was resting with that because part of me really likes theidea of spoon thing, but then that challenge was really helpful because he said, well,
actually what the missing bit is, we don't know how many spoons someone has until we askedthem.
And they may not know either.
And that may be an ongoing conversation.
And just because they've had a five spoon day today, they might have a two spoon daytomorrow and a 25 spoon day, day after.
(23:45):
And I think particularly in this space, often
the individual doesn't know and if they don't know you sometimes get into this weird sortof space where someone else thinks they know but they don't know is that helpful enough uh
about when is something useful for me if I notice it for myself and when is it not helpfulfor me when somebody else tells me.
(24:13):
You
And that's about agency, isn't it?
It's about my art as individuals, as human beings, how much freedom, flexibility,permission do we have to consider what we know already and put it into practice?
(24:33):
And actually that's true in coaching a lot, isn't it?
That often what we're exploring is that the person may have it inside them.
Asking them what they know already isn't always a great question because they may not beable to access it in the moment.
And then you just know what they know already and they don't know anything new.
That's kind of different conversation.
But I think there is something about...
(24:55):
So for me personally, understanding that energy thing goes back to being a little bitcompassionate when I lie on the sofa for four hours and then go to bed.
But if you said to me, many spoons have you got today, I wouldn't be able to answer thatquestion.
even right now.
And you shouldn't have to in some ways because actually it's just an idea.
(25:17):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And that's the thing, isn't it?
Because you can talk about a concept, but there's a difference between then applying it,if you applying it literally and just understanding there's a concept there.
Yeah, and I think that concept has some baked in assumptions that don't really work.
So it's, it assumes that you can access this information, you know, about where yourenergy is at.
(25:43):
And if you have, you know, challenges with that, or alexithymia, you know, you might notreadily understand or recognize or be able to name label your internal states.
It also assumes that the
that the spoons can't be replenished, you know, various things.
So this is some of the backlash against the spoon theory recently is people recognizingthis.
(26:07):
And that's only possible because when the idea was first presented, it started thisdiscussion.
And this is the great thing about that theory is it started this
this new discussion and awareness around disability, around energy, around all of thesethings.
And because that discussion was started as a result of the theory, we've evolved it tothis point.
(26:29):
Now we're like, yeah, it has all these limitations and problems.
And so what a wonderful thing that we got to this point because of that.
Yeah, love it.
Yeah, and one of the awareness things that comes out of that is that people may be able todo a whole load of things, but they may not be able to do them at any all the time or at
(26:49):
any particular time.
Can we?
So I just had a spoon thing because you've got dessert spoons, tablespoons and teaspoonsand obviously different spoons for different jobs.
And so often we think we've got a bucket load of dessert spoons when we need to mix thetea.
Sorry.
Can I just say there's a thing on Facebook that actually I think nails the issue that wehave, which is a picture of different kinds of spoons.
(27:14):
And it says, people with ADHD all pick the same spoon, which one is it?
And I think that is such a great example that we are bombarded with information that isnot information.
That is just...
oh this is a good thing and I'm going to get lots of likes and follows and now people areall gonna think it's a thing and then and then you look at it and you think I chose the
(27:41):
wrong spoon maybe I don't have ADHD after all and it just it just wastes such an amount ofinformation
say about me?
And of course, some people who are neurodivergent will then just go off and lose totaltrack of the thing they were doing and now be thinking about spoons all day.
(28:03):
Can we just go back to where you said alexithymia?
What does that mean?
Yeah, so I might get this wrong.
So correct me, Nathan, you probably know better than I do, both of you.
But this is the awareness of your ability to identify your um feelings, internal states,kind of what's going on with your body.
(28:25):
And for many neurodivergent people, this is a challenging.
thing is, you if you ask them, does that feel?
Or what are you feeling?
They won't be able to answer that, at least not immediately, you know, that might takesome time, if at all, to really kind of maybe in retrospect to go, yeah, this is, you
(28:47):
know, when I feel this in my body, or when this is happening in my body, it's mapped onto,you know, sadness or anxiety or whatever else.
I totally agree with that.
Brené Brown describes this beautifully in the Relatives to the Heart.
She sort of talks about this idea that you may be experiencing that feeling on a level 10,but only able to articulate a level two.
(29:09):
And of course, that's where we see sometimes when, so I should say sometimes, not always,but sometimes when we see some quite difficult situations, because if you're feeling
something massively, but don't have the language or the understanding to communicate that,that can be really difficult.
Mm-hmm.
I'm wondering where that goes in the book.
(29:34):
I see a possible way in.
And it ties back to what you were saying a minute ago about all this information and allthis, there's this kind of constant pressure, especially on social media to identify and
be able to name and present like, this is me, this is this, this is what I know.
(29:57):
And there's all these, you know, quizzes and tests and, and again, information that's notinformation.
And all of this points to that idea of expertise.
And maybe expertise isn't the point.
like, there's a difference between awareness and knowing and expertise and information inthat whole camp.
(30:20):
And I think we're wanting to make the argument for less of the, the categorization andidentification and more of the, the practical.
aware what do I need to do here?
What's going on?
What's happening in the moment?
But it raises a really interesting question for coaches who use somatics.
(30:47):
and might accidentally gently try and affix meaning to somebody who...
So, yes, thank you.
So somatics is about the feeling in the body.
It's about using the senses of the body as well as the thinking of the head.
So, you know, so much coach training talks about noticing...
(31:12):
I mean, in different ways about noticing whether somebody's thinking or whether they'refeeling, are they speaking from thinking language or feeling language?
And feeling might be about emotion.
And as more as there's more awareness of semantics and as it's clear that connectingwhat's going on in our body is useful in terms of connecting what's going on in our head,
(31:37):
increasingly coaches are saying, where are you feeling that in your body?
Which is a great question.
But from what we've just said, the art of that is not to make a judgment when somebodygoes, don't know.
Because that doesn't mean they don't know.
It might mean they don't know, but it might also mean I don't know now, or I can'tarticulate it now.
(32:02):
Which opens the whole thing up even bigger, which is...
Everyone we work with as an individual and we need to work differently with everyone.
And we can't work with them the same next week as we did this week, which is kind of,which is kind of the point of the book.
You've read it now listeners, by the way.
(32:23):
Yeah.
Just wanted to say something.
Yeah.
I wanted to add something to the somatic.
piece because I just I found what you said so relatable and I find the somatic like for mepersonally, it's it's a bit impenetrable and and it feels like when I'm in a session or
(32:44):
I'm you know, I've definitely been in coaching sessions with other coaches or group thingsthat have this somatic approach and for me personally, it's it feels like advanced level,
you know, just it feels like
you know, graduate level coaching or something.
It's so, I find it so challenging.
(33:06):
And there's this added pressure of if somebody asks me how I feel, I don't want to say, Idon't know.
You know, it's...
It feels as though there'll be a judgment on that.
Yeah, how could I not know?
Yeah, that question.
(33:27):
a horrible question in that moment, isn't it?
It is, and if you didn't know, well then I'd be able to answer your question.
Yeah.
something here about masking as well and what I mean by that is so if I could talk aboutme so I know for me there's often a divide particularly in professional context between
(33:50):
what I'm feeling inside and what I'm prepared to.
share.
show or present and I know we've both had conversations where that mask comes tumblingdown once trust is formed and different types of conversations happen and it's just
there's but I think sometimes if we're not careful
(34:16):
we can support that to happen and it's not safe enough.
Yeah, because the art is that we've got to know that absolutely nothing will be done withthe thing that we're about to disclose with the mask off.
That it's not going to impact us.
Can I?
Sorry I'm really interested in this.
(34:37):
So this morning when I was doing my exercises from my trainer she's going, so she's on alittle video, she's going feel it in your hamstring and I'm going well but I can't.
I'm just wondering whether I don't have a hamstring or whether that's alexithonia or
(35:01):
feel it somewhere else Claire can I ask?
What do mean, was I stretching the wrong bit?
No, no, not the wrong bit because and the reason why I go with this is because so I'vebeen doing some gymnastics for a while and I get to hang out with some incredibly flexible
fit people and they do these stretches they go.
I know I'm not saying it's you but but as I'm doing this stuff I'm going with that I can'teven feel that there because I can't even get in the position to start to do that but I
(35:25):
will try but it's completely different because I'm opening up something different which isunrelated because I'm not even there to do the thing they want me to do yet and that's
fine I don't know if that's
I can feel some of them, that some of them I think, I'm sure you're right that I'm tryingto do this to do that, but it's not happening.
prep stuff, it takes time but it's great.
(35:46):
yeah.
Or if you're like me and you're extremely hypermobile, it's, you're not going to ever feelit anyway, cause you're, you're stretching so far past, you know, what, what you need.
And so that it's just, which is the whole problem.
And the reason why I'm doing the exercises is to learn how to, to bring it back to asensible level of stretch.
(36:09):
So everybody's different and we're all struggling for these different reasons.
did I cut across your story Claire?
I realised that you were done.
Are sure?
just, I was just reaching out for help.
you
There's two words that came up in this conversation that we haven't said this, but we feltreally resonant is this idea of curiosity and kindness.
(36:30):
Yeah.
And there's also, I have a whole page of notes, so I'm about to batten down the hatchesfor another whole week's writing in my cupboard.
Nobody come in.
The writing cupboard.
Nobody give me any new ideas Nathan!
(36:53):
We're going dark aren't we?
uh
And I've just got a whole load of other things to, of lenses actually, to look at somestuff through, which is a really useful thing.
Lovely listeners.
One of the challenges about this book, I think, is that there are so many things we couldput in and we're trying to make it readable and useful and also recognise that there's a
(37:20):
boundary.
There are some principles that are useful, which you'll find in the book.
So as we're coming to the end of our conversation, I've had an idea of what will motivatepeople to look in the show notes.
Look in the show notes to find the subtitle we have chosen.
(37:43):
That probably means you can pre-order the book now.
ah If you can, we'll put the link there.
As soon as it's available for pre-order, we'll put the link.
in the show notes to this episode, because you may be listening to it six months a year,five years after we've recorded it, which is a lovely thing.
ah If you're listening to this in five years time, in 2030, just know that we've learned alot since we recorded this episode.
(38:07):
You
So find out where we are now by chasing us on some kind of social media or websites andthings, and then you'll discover what we think now that we didn't think when we recorded
it today.
and ask us about spoons and what we think about spoons, because I'm sure that will evolveby then.
ah Check out the subtitle in the show notes and uh send us an email.
(38:36):
Once a week for five weeks we're going to choose one of you to be a beta reader.
So contact us, look in the show notes, do what the instructions in the show notes say.
And uh once a week for the next five weeks, we're going to choose uh one of you to be abeta reader and we'll put you in our beta reader.
(39:02):
special thing.
Will you update the show notes once that five weeks is over, Claire So?
eh
that to delete what's in the show notes.
So lovely listener, you don't go there with such a hope.
But of course you could buy the book if you're listening after November, 2026.
(39:24):
And it's called Lens Not Label and is available in all major book online places.
How weird is that?
All that time travel!
I need to go lie down on the couch for four hours.
I'll be with Doctor Who.
(39:45):
gone to 2030, now about 2025.
So we need to wrap this up, Nathan and Kim and lovely listener, because this is what ourwriting meetings are like, which is probably why, lovely listener, you get a little bit of
a sense why it's taken us so long to quite get ourselves in gear, but we are now in gear.
(40:05):
So Kim, how would you like us to finish?
How would you like to finish?
Hahaha
I'd love to offer a question or a prompt to the readers, to listeners and readers, futurereaders, to think about.
I don't know what that is though.
(40:28):
Let's talk to Nathan and maybe you'll work it out.
Nathan, what is your ending thing?
ending?
I just wanted to encourage you that this type of conversation is something you can havewith other people you know and actually one thing we've learned about writing this book is
that we are different yet similar.
(40:49):
We're passionately committed to trying to do something together, we've done it withcuriosity and kindness and I would just encourage anyone who's listening, thinking about
this stuff, however far in the future that may be, to never stop exploring.
Thank
Have you got it, Kim?
(41:10):
No, I was captivated by what Nathan was saying.
He said it best.
Maybe it's, know, oh think of somebody in mind that you can start having this kind ofconversation, a different kind of conversation with who might be a safer person to try
out, you know, talking about some of these ideas if there was something that intriguedyou.
(41:39):
Thank you.
Thank you, lovely listener, for jumping into our conversation.
And we hope there's been some useful stuff in it for you.
And think about one thing that you're taking away from what we've said that might be auseful lens to look through in a conversation with somebody who is or, yeah, just who is
(42:03):
different from you.
They don't have to be neurodivergent.
They just could be different from you.
oh
Because if we're going to work with people who are different, we need to work in slightlydifferent ways and we can't learn how many people live in the planet.
8 billion?
We can't learn eight billion or whatever it is ways of having conversations becauseactually we can learn some simple ways of having conversations in partnership that begin
(42:28):
to enable us to have conversations with more people.
Maybe not eight billion, but you never know.
lot of talking.
not wildly off.
Well doesn't matter because it's a lot.
And also you can have more than one conversation that will be different with the sameperson so then you get into all sorts of issues.
then you get to bigger numbers.
(42:48):
That's true.
OK, so we're talking about partnership conversations.
Let's go back to the to the doable, easy end of that.
Partnership conversations come from co-creating every conversation with an individual sothat we're doing something that's serving them and serving the purpose of the conversation
and that is useful and that we agree together how we're going to do that.
(43:12):
And that really matters.
Thank you, Kim.
Witton, thank you Nathan Whitbread.
Thank you lovely listener for listening.
We'll be back next week with another episode that will be much calmer than this.
And we're very grateful and delighted that you have been in our company for the last 40minutes.
(43:33):
Thank you for coming.
Bye bye.
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