January 24, 2024 • 40 mins
Sometimes the best learning about coaching comes when we talk about something else and then make our own meaning. Claire met Kate Caroe at the Out of The Box/ Deep Talk conference in September 2023. Over coffee, Kate shared some of the connections she was making between Home Education and Coaching. So we invited her to come to The Coaching Inn and talk more.
Kate has home educated her 6 children and learned about how to facilitate them to do their own learning, how to keep out of the way, to be present, and how to avoid squashing innate curiosity. Kate also discusses the connection between meaning-making and the Out of the Box approach to education. The conversation highlights the significance of relationships, enjoyment, and being present in the learning journey.
Contact Kate through www.outoftheboxstories.org
Keywords
homeschooling, coaching, education, trust, curiosity, play, meaning-making, Out of the Box
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching'svirtual pub where we enjoy conversations
with people who engage in the world ofcoaching.
Things I absolutely love about the work wedo is watching people see something that
is completely disconnected from the workthat they do, suddenly enable them to make
(00:23):
meaning or make connections in a new way.
That's why I love this episode, partlybecause the conversation that I had with
Kate over coffee when we first met enabledboth of us to make new meanings, but also
in the days and weeks since we recordedthis podcast,
I've realized that she is describing inthis conversation the philosophy that we
(00:48):
have of how we train coaches, which isgive you the least that you need to know
and enable you to make your own meanings.
So I hope you love this one to listen toas much as I loved recording it.
And if you like it, we would absolutelylove it if you shared it with one other
person, because we'd love to get thecoaching in.
wider, deeper, further into the world.
(01:10):
Let me know what you think.
Welcome to this week's edition of TheCoaching In.
Today, I'm having a second conversationwith Kate Carrow, who I met in Sheffield
earlier on in the year, when we had themost interesting conversation about
homeschooling and coaching.
And I said to Kate, why don't you come toThe Coaching In and talk to us about it?
(01:31):
Welcome, Kate.
Hello.
Thank you very much.
It's such a delight to see you again.
So just give us some context about whatyou do with your day.
Well, I have two children who I'm homeeducating now, which feels a lot easier
(01:51):
because in total I've had six, but they'vegone to school at 14.
So now with my two boys who are eight andnine, we tend to get up at a reasonable
time and then they do their maths andmusic practice and they might do maths on
(02:14):
the computer.
of their own accord.
They might ask me to get involved or Imight be doing jobs on the computer
because I organize out of the box andacquire called Steel City Choristers as
well.
So I've got my work to do and they've gottheir work to do.
And they should do some, they know theyneed to do a bit of writing as well, a
(02:36):
few, a few spellings or copyright.
And then at coffee time, we then cometogether and have a snack and I have a cup
of coffee.
And we come together for stories.
And we start off with a bit of sort ofpresencing, kind of something peaceful to
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bring us together in a relaxed frame ofmind.
And then we have maybe a couple of hoursof different stories.
And I read, and then they tell back whatthey've heard, so they're obsessing things
themselves.
And then...
Then we have lunch and then they have abit of free play.
(03:20):
And then we often do something later on inthe afternoon, like, or evening, like, or
going to see friends or beavers or choiror tennis.
So there's a lot of them takingresponsibility for their own learning.
Yes.
And that's been quite a big shift becauseI always felt quite responsible early on
(03:45):
with my...
older children who are now 20 and 18.
And I've had to learn to let go ofcontrol, trust that they can do it for
themselves.
Trust that children are born with aninnate curiosity and eagerness to learn
and they're interested in the world.
(04:05):
And if I can harness that, then that's themost powerful way of them learning.
But then you have to create.
some habits so that you've got like acontainer for the learning.
You have to create some habits of like, sothey don't question yet.
(04:25):
Like, okay, you always do your teeth onbrush your teeth on the morning and okay,
you always do your maths and some writingand some music practice on the morning.
So there's some expectation around it, butwithin those boundaries then to trust
them, to trust them and also to trust.
the content of what they're learning, thatit is really interesting.
(04:48):
Like I might not necessarily find mathsall that interesting, but I remember
talking to a friend who's a mathsprofessor when she had little children and
she said, the trouble with English is thatit's so difficult to know how to do
anything with English with your children.
(05:08):
Whereas maths, it's just everywhere.
Everywhere you look, there's shapes andnumbers and fun things that you can do
with the maths.
Her children were in school.
This was just the way she lived, enjoyingseeing the world through that lens.
Yeah.
And so there's all sorts of differentsubjects and it's learning to appreciate
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that there's something exciting.
Wow.
Me feeling that and trusting that so thatthe children can have.
pick up and have confidence and not that Ineed to know about it, I just need to be
interested in it.
So you're trusting very young children todo some really great learning with a
(05:53):
little bit of facilitation from yousometimes.
Yeah, and quite a lot of play and they'lllearn a lot through play.
And some of that play can be like I cansuggest it.
Or maybe there's not maybe that sometimesit's not what's the difference between
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play and and learning.
I'm not sure.
Maybe it's the fact that if I suggestsomething, then we should.
It's just the way that you do it.
It's not necessarily what the activity is,because any activity can be play for
somebody if they're enjoying themselvesand if they're in flow and they're
interested.
So it's the way that you introducesomething or the way that you do it
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together or the way they do it themselvesdetermines whether it's a play or not and
all of it's learning.
I'm interesting.
I love the word flow and play andlearning.
Yeah, I think that's the most.
important.
It doesn't have to be play like, I'mplaying with my, I'm just playing with my
(07:04):
Lego and that's what I feel like doing.
It could be, it could be.
So today we had some friends around andwe'd all done a little bit of looking into
maps and then we, and then the childreneach brought something to show each other
about what they'd learned about maps.
And part of that was, we looked at contourlines.
(07:28):
And so I've got it.
Like we made with plasticine, we made ahill.
nice.
A knife.
We do the contour lines.
Yeah.
It's a show.
And then we and then we do the pictureonto a piece of paper.
And like and that was fun.
And that was I mean, it was it wasn'tplaying that they just decided that they
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were just going to go and do that today.
It was I had decided that we were doingthis.
Well, we'd all decided that we were doing.
Yeah.
having this gathering about maps and thenwe did, and that was one of the
activities.
And another of the activities was playingbattleships because we were looking at
grid references.
And so that is, it's really, I don't thinkthere's all that much difference between.
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play and schoolwork, if it's done in aplayful way.
And that's where most of the learning canhappen.
One of the things that we talk about oftenin coaching is what's the least that the
coach needs to do to facilitate the otherperson to do some thinking.
And it feels as though your philosophy ofeducation is what's the least that you
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need to do so that they can do itthemselves?
yes, definitely.
Because I have to...
get out of the, keep out of the way of thechildren because they've got it in
themselves.
I need to suggest something and then, andthen sit back and see where, wherever it
leads.
(09:00):
Because I follow Charlotte Mason's ideas.
She was a educator in the Victorian times.
And she talked about getting, gettingyourself out of the way of the children
because they've, they've got this.
innate curiosity and playfulness anddesire to learn and we just need to get,
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just need to keep ourselves out of the wayso that we don't squash it.
then it'll happen.
You don't need to do much.
But she's inspired you.
Yes, she I came across her ideas a longtime ago, maybe 15 years ago.
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And I was I was quite excited by what shesaid.
But when I tried to implement them withthe children, then it just didn't seem to
work.
I couldn't quite understand how to make ithappen, how to get it.
them to be interested in these books thatwere being suggested and how to do a
nature journal that she suggested.
(10:06):
And I just couldn't make it work.
And over the years I've realized now we'redoing that style and loving it, but it's
been about me transforming myself, whichis what your book was about.
It's about this coach transformingthemselves.
Like,
(10:27):
With a nature journal, I used to suggestto the children that they go and do this
nature journal and then help them do itand then it would peter out.
Whereas now I've learned that I can do anature journal for myself and be genuinely
interested in doing it for myself.
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And then that kind of becomes a norm andthe children can pick up on that.
And I think a lot of education...
The gap between the children who learnreally well and children who don't have
such good results in school can be whattheir home atmosphere is like.
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And all these things that you take forgranted in the atmosphere of who you are
as a person and the things that you'reinterested in, that has a massive
influence on the children's education morethan any activities that you do.
It's about who you are in your characterand what you love.
(11:33):
I know that our listeners with children,some of them are doing a full -time job
and then supporting their kids to do thehomework in the evening.
And you're saying that you've moved awayfrom the rules and you simply let the
children find their way with a little bitof shaping from the outside sometimes.
(11:57):
What would you want to say to thoseparents?
Well, I think they can't, they mustn'tcompare themselves with, I'm not working
full time and I haven't got the pressureof the school asking me to do things that
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I've got to do with the children.
That's different.
I think the main thing is for them to findwhat they enjoy doing with their children
and follow those interests.
and enjoy themselves with the childrenwhenever they can.
They've got to do what they've got to do,but otherwise the main purpose is to enjoy
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the children and do stuff with them andtalk to them and let them talk to you.
Yeah.
So your children are in three buckets,right?
By the sound of it, you've got the oldertwo and then the middle two and then the
younger two.
So what's changed?
Can you tangibly notice what's changedabout how you be with them in this home
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education space from the first two to themiddle two to the last two?
Well, my first, the first two and thesecond two, they're all quite close
together.
They were really a good four.
And I think I felt responsible that theyhad to get through certain things and that
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I had to plan these things and also maybea bit more written work.
So we had more output that I could see theproof of what we were doing and that would
make me feel better.
better.
Whereas, whereas now there's not so muchproof, you can't, it's more about the
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input.
There's not as much output.
And, and I think I would try to plan aheada bit more as what I was hoping to do.
Whereas now I try to be more spontaneousand just see what's available and what's
around and then make the most out of that.
So there's a lot.
I plan what books we've
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storybooks and things we're going to read.
But for example, I thought I might do aplay, this term, a Shakespeare play.
But then I saw that the the Hyperchondriacby Moliere was on at the theatres in
Sheffield.
And I knew I had a copy of Moliere forsome reason.
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So I just thought, well, let's just dothat because it's easier.
And...
and let myself be, just go with what'shappening around me and then make the most
out of that.
It feels more natural and it feels easierbecause...
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You don't have to try to organize quite asmuch stuff.
You just have to make the most out of whatis around and, and enjoy that and be
present to that and realize every littlething is an opportunity to learn even if
it's an interruption or even if it doesn'tseem, even if it's something that gets
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broken and then do something about it.
I mean, it sounds a bit idyllic.
I'm not, it's not idyllic.
I am putting any really on top of thingsin, I'll have my ideals that maybe I don't
live up to, but, but also I suppose, Isuppose as well, I feel more comfortable
because my older children have done well.
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And I know it can't, I know that it's notgoing to be perfect, but, but it'll, it's
good enough.
And it has been, has been,
has been, has had good results.
I would probably do things differently ifI was to do it again.
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Nobody's going to have to be perfect.
And it's quite exciting that it's, thatthe children have done as well as they
have despite me.
So you've got a confidence in the processbeing good enough that feels like it's
allowed you to lighten up a bit.
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on your expectations of yourself.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes, that's right.
I don't feel...
And so then that allows me to enjoy whatI'm doing a bit more, which then becomes a
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virtual circle because then the childrenpick up on that.
And also, I suppose I've learned...
I've learned what's important, what'simportant.
I went for science.
I used to not particularly like doingscience experiments.
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And I knew about the scientific method.
But I would really worry about the scienceexperiment, whether it might work or not,
how interesting it would be, whether thetheory was going to be interesting.
Whereas now I feel like, well,
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She doesn't, it doesn't work so much.
It's just, I need to be a calm presenceand notice, observe clearly, be
methodical, take notes, be interested, behappy with whatever we're exploring.
Even if it doesn't work, it's that's stilluseful.
(17:51):
Maybe talk about the forward model T beingthe T at the time that they'd.
try to make something.
It's just, it's those things that are moreimportant than the content of anything
that you're doing.
The content doesn't matter.
And the content of the children haven'tnecessarily covered the content that they
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would cover in schools.
But they go in, they've been into schoolat 13 or 14 and they have got some gaps in
their knowledge, but they've got a goodattitude to learning.
They've got a sense of...
responsibility for their own education andtheir own self.
And so then they can pick up any extraknowledge that they need to.
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Because they know how to learn.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's the same for, the children havegone on French and German exchanges and
they've gone for six months to France orGermany and then we've had a French or
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German child back with us for six months.
And these French and German children havebeen in school in their country.
So our children go to school in France.
or Germany for six months when they'rewith them, but, and then these children,
when they come to us, they either go toschool here or they buy home, educate
them.
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And so they do something completelydifferent for six months and then go back
to their home country.
And, and, and often they find that they,they're ahead.
They might miss some content, but they,they might be ahead with their maths or
they've just got to set their...
Character has grown, their brains mademore connections, they've had this
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adventure.
It doesn't seem to matter that they missthe six months of content.
It's just your experiences and yourcharacter that develops and that seems to
be similar to anything in home ed, thatit's not about the activities and the
content.
It's just about who you are and how youare.
(20:06):
That's amazing.
Who they are and how they are as much andmore important than what they learn.
And, you know, in many contexts, but, youknow, particularly in coaching coaches get
very anxious about what do I do?
How do I do this?
What else do I need to do?
What else do I need to bring in?
And that feeling that value comes fromwhat we do.
(20:28):
But what a beautiful description aboutimmersing for six months when it's
entirely about who you're becoming and howyou be.
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, and the confidence that you can havein yourself.
Mm -hmm.
and the new experiences that you'rehaving.
(20:50):
Yeah.
That all come from exposure rather thaneducation.
Yes.
Or knowledge.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so.
that's quite radical with the six monthexchanges.
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But in the rest of your life, it's aboutbeing exposed to all sorts of things as
well.
And so that's why it's about input andabout reading stories.
And I'm reading much more complicated ormore engaging, advanced stories to my
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children now than I would have done withmy older ones.
Interesting.
So we've read, we've read Swallows andAmazons and the James Herriot books,
Shakespeare plays and.
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And Moliere.
Well, yeah, and that was fun.
Did you just take it?
Also, I suppose because of this way of.
You take it.
you read a little bit and then you ask thechildren to tell back and they can tell
about what they wanted to say and youtrust them that they're going to sift
through their heads as to everything thatthey've heard and they're going to choose
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what they think is the most interesting orthe most important and then they tell you
back and you accept what they say becausethey're the learner, they're doing the
work, you don't know what thoughtprocesses went to do.
in their head, so you can't see everythingthat they're learning.
You can only see what they're offering.
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And it's not for my benefit what they tellme.
In any case, it's for their own.
It's their own decisions and their owneducation, their own journey.
And so they can't fail because you askthem to tell you something and they tell
you something.
And even if it's brief, then you mighttell them something too.
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If they...
don't want, have hardly anything to say,then you can tell them what you liked
about it too.
So then you get to model that narration,we call it.
And you get to recap in your own wordsabout what you've just read.
So they hear it again and then you moveon.
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So there's no, there's no, there's nopressure.
It's just, and it's all in small bits.
So it's short, short chunks.
And you're not leading them to the placethat you think they ought to be?
No.
Yeah.
I'm not asking them questions and ask, andI'm wanting to check whether they've got
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the, they've been listening and had theright, got the right answer for me.
I don't mind what they've, what they'vecome back with.
It doesn't matter.
I'm really curious about what theconversation was like when you came out of
seeing Marlier's hyperchondriac.
Well, it was funny because he was, it wasquite, it was really comedic and much more
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accessible than you might have thought.
And it was, and they, they talked aboutthe poster was quite different to what the
actors were actually wearing.
So they were like, why is that?
Why do they got a poster with this man ina black velvet jacket and a pink hat,
whereas actually he was all in beige andhe was small and skinny and on the poster.
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And then we're saying, why are there nomore children?
Why weren't there any other children inthe audience?
And also it was rewritten by Roger McGoffin rhyming couplets.
It was funnier than the play, even thoughthe play had been quite funny too.
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Wow, what a beautiful thing.
They probably understood it more than someof the adults in the audience, didn't
they?
Well, probably because we'd just read itand talked about it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you talked about Charlotte Mason.
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What was her philosophy that so attractedyou?
She talks a lot about...
Education being an atmosphere and I heardother people who were following their
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ideas about it being a life home educationbeing a lifestyle and So I was so although
I didn't understand it for a long time.
That is what attracted me to it this ideathat it was It education infiltrated all
of life all of character who you were whatyour whole family is like all the
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nonverbal
things that you have around your houselots of stories and
art and being out in nature, abouttreating education as a as people as the
whole person is about your about thecharacter of the whole person.
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It's about formation.
Rather than the transference ofinformation.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And.
Because it's about your whole personhoodand then a lot of the way that Charlotte
Mason suggests that you learn about thingsis through the lens of another person and
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their life.
So she talks about using living booksrather than textbooks.
And so living books would be the story ofsomebody's life that's really emotionally
engaging.
often might start, if you're reading abiography or something, it often might
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start with the person as a child.
So you get an insight into who they wereas a child and where their interests lay
and why they went into the field that theywent into.
So you can relate to them.
So you might be reading a science book,but we've just read one on Isaac Newton,
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and you read it.
and you see him as a child and you hearabout how he was intrigued about these
workers who were building a windmill nearhim and how he...
and we were reading about Leonardo daVinci as well and how when he was a child,
he got some animals and collected them andthen drew them with perspective and made
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it look really lifelike and his dadthought it was a real dragon or something
and got a copy and that was funny and...
And so you don't really sort of getting aninsight into people's lives and then
learning about their discoveries alongalong the way makes it I feel like can
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relate more and it feels more accessibleand feels more relevant to you because as
you can imagine them as a child and thenyeah.
So a lot of connecting.
Yeah, she talks about education being ascience of relations.
It's all about relationships and alwaysasking, well, what does that remind you
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of?
And seeing how everything interconnectsand noticing.
So like this book about Isaac Newton, thenwe've just finished it and.
the children have been writing.
We've had a group of friends, everybody'swritten a bit of a narration about each
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chapter and then you put it in the postand it goes to somebody else and then you
get another book and then you write thenext chapter in the next book and put it
in the post.
But then we were watching Doctor Who andthen Isaac Newton was mentioned on the
Doctor Who and we went down to...
Cambridge for my daughter's advent carolservice.
And then we'd go past the Isaac Newton pubthere.
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And then I was listening to a podcastabout children's curiosity and they were
talking about him there.
And there's always connections ineverything.
And so that's why we are always lookingout for those.
And you can't really compartmentalizeinto, I'm doing, we're doing history now
and then geography and then science.
I have to answer the council.
They'll ask me, what do I do for thesedifferent subject areas?
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But.
I don't really, the children don't reallylearn in subject areas like that.
It's all, it's always just learning aboutlife and then making connections between.
That reminds me that in coaching often theorganization says that they want this and
this and this and that to be covered, butactually the conversation, the dialogue
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and the growth comes from the connectionand the humanity of it.
Yes, the whole story.
So Kate, we met at an out of the boxworkshop, which is something that you do
and we've interviewed, we've had CatherineLord on here and Tula Valconen.
(30:39):
So for you, what's this connection betweenmeaning making and out of the box in the
way that you do home ed?
So a lot of the ideas for Out of the Boxcame.
for Catherine from Godly Play, but for mefrom Charlotte Mason and my experience of
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home ed.
And...
Cause I, when we went into lockdown, Iwrote a little bit about home ed being
about the atmosphere and life and not justabout activities.
Cause people were needing to dohomeschooling, which was quite different
(31:24):
to, through home ed.
Yeah.
Catherine and I found a lot of connectionabout this kind of idea that it's about a
way.
way of being and how that way of being isthe most important thing.
And then we started this Facebook groupcalled Dooby Doo, which was about doing
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and being, because we wanted to focus onthis idea of this.
So there is something to explore aboutwhat it is about being the most important
thing in any kind of activity.
And then I was talking about stories,being a vehicle for learning and...
being emotionally engaging.
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And so then we, eventually that then ledto us designing Out of the Box because I
like the idea of using stories as a sortof stimulus for the children's learning.
We could use, we've developed wisdomstories for Out of the Box, but we're
going to develop science and historystories and things.
(32:30):
Cause we've got a story like a King Canuteand
the waves and then you tell the story inout of the box with the figures on the
sand or on the cloth and tell the storyabout King Canute trying to get the waves
to the sea to stop coming in.
And then the children then get to see thatenacted in front of them and then opening
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up the dialogue around what did you likeabout that?
What did you not like?
They get to say what they want to sayabout the story and how it impacted them
and what they notice.
They get to play with the story and say,well, what would you do?
Where would you be in the story?
And they get to really engage with theirphysically, with the materials, but also
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emotionally and with the conversation anddialogue about how do they relate to that
story.
And it's just fun and playful and light.
And that can then lead to more studyabout.
Viking towns or whatever, but it justignites an interest.
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And you could have that.
You could have the same for a scientificcharacter, Gregor Mendel with his peas or
you could do all sorts of little storiesand they're only so short.
It could just be a little way ofintroducing a topic.
I think it would be, I mean, schools doloads of creative things, but this was
(34:04):
just another.
creative way that I think is really niceto get the children really talking and
because there's having their own ideas andhaving their own agency over something.
And for us as the adults to kind of getout of the way of them and just play.
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Because you're inviting them to stand in adifferent place in the story, aren't you?
And getting them to look at the story fromdifferent
perspectives in a really simple way.
Yes.
And getting them to think about thehumanity, the people in the stories and
what were their motivations and why werethey doing what they're doing and playing
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with the people and because the childrencan work out, make meaning as they play
and think about what it feels more playfulhaving little wooden figures and being
able to play in a group.
than just thinking theoretically aboutwhat were the motivations of the advice,
the king's advisors or, but to actuallyplay with it.
(35:14):
Yeah.
Inhabit it a bit more and you just have abit of fun and mess around and experiment
and there's no right or wrong, but I thinkyou can get, have more ideas and be more,
yeah, more creative if you just get achance to play with things like that.
Touch it, inhabit it, try it out, playwith it.
(35:37):
And then think, and then think about what,and then what does that mean for me?
Like, who do I relate to and how would Ibe in that kind of situation?
And...
And I felt with our home edge that when Iwas first home educating, then people
would talk about their children playinghistory stories and things.
(35:59):
And my children didn't do that so much.
Whereas now they do.
And I think it's because we, I give themmore input with more in a more relaxed,
playful, lighthearted way out of the boxis, and then I give them more free time to
play.
So they can play with their Lego, theirclaim a beer and, and, or.
(36:19):
free play in the garden or whatever.
And then you do see them then playing outthese stories.
They played out like Hengist and Horso whowere in a feast and the Saxons and then
they whipped out their daggers at the endof the meal.
It was terrible.
But they play that and it becomes theirown.
(36:41):
And then out of the box if children canget to play with the stories afterwards
and the materials, they can...
inhabited and it can become their own,they can relate to it and enjoy it and I
think it ignites a real interest inanything and you can have any kind of
subject in there.
I'm laughing to myself because it's commonisn't it for adults to say let's play with
(37:06):
some ideas but that's entirely in thehead.
Okay let's sit here and discuss.
otherwise known as play with some ideas,but you're talking about actually
touching, feeling, experiencing.
Yes.
And really, well, I used to work in, for amedia agency and there was one time when
(37:31):
we wanted to come up with some ideas for aclient.
I can't remember what the product was, butit was a, some sort of youth campaign.
And in order to get people to be morecreative.
come up with more ideas and things, thenthey invite, they sent everybody an
invitation.
It was just a meeting to brainstorm someideas, but you got an invitation to a
(37:54):
meeting that was a box with a, they openedup with a balloon, a helium balloon, and
came out and it said, come, come along tothis meeting basically, but in a fun way.
And then you went down to this meetingroom and there was bean bags and pizza.
And we were all supposed to sort of kindof pretend to be teenagers to
(38:14):
to get into the mood of thinking like thatin order to get more ideas to flow and be
more relaxed and playful.
And so it's good to inhabit and reallyplay with your body to then be able to
come up with more ideas.
(38:36):
Yeah, that's amazing.
That's amazing.
So what would you like our listeners tohear?
and to think about in relation to learningfrom what we've talked about around home
educate.
I think that learning is fun, thatrelationships are the main thing to enjoy
(39:03):
yourselves and...
and be interested, but have a nice timeand follow what you feel like doing.
and relax into it.
And I love how you've done this with twoseparate bundles of your children and how
(39:29):
you've learnt from the first go, so thesecond go, and that you still recognise
that the first go was good enough.
That's beautiful.
Yes, it's quite good to have six childrenbecause I can keep experimenting for a bit
longer.
Great.
Thank you so much for coming to the coachagain.
(39:49):
How do people get in touch with you ifthey want to talk more about out of the
box?
They could go to our website,outofthepoxstories .org and we're on
Facebook as out of the box.
Would be great to hear from people.
Brilliant.
I'm interested in the exchanges that'sAleph, the Association of Language
(40:09):
Learning on Famille.
A -L -L -E -F.
Brilliant.
Thank you so much, Kate, and what apleasure it has been to have you here at
The Coaching In today.
And thank you everyone for listening.
Bye bye.
Thank you.
If you've enjoyed what you've heard today,we'd love you to share the podcast with a
friend or leave a comment on social media.
(40:31):
And if you'd like to become a regular atThe Coaching In, you can subscribe on
Podbean and all major podcast channels.
We look forward to welcoming you nexttime.
You've been listening to The Coaching In.
3D Coaching's Virtual Pub.
For more information, check out 3Dcoaching.com.
You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching'svirtual pub where we enjoy conversations
with people who engage in the world ofcoaching.
Things I absolutely love about the work wedo is watching people see something that
is completely disconnected from the workthat they do, suddenly enable them to make
(00:23):
meaning or make connections in a new way.
That's why I love this episode, partlybecause the conversation that I had with
Kate over coffee when we first met enabledboth of us to make new meanings, but also
in the days and weeks since we recordedthis podcast,
I've realized that she is describing inthis conversation the philosophy that we
(00:48):
have of how we train coaches, which isgive you the least that you need to know
and enable you to make your own meanings.
So I hope you love this one to listen toas much as I loved recording it.
And if you like it, we would absolutelylove it if you shared it with one other
person, because we'd love to get thecoaching in.
wider, deeper, further into the world.
(01:10):
Let me know what you think.
Welcome to this week's edition of TheCoaching In.
Today, I'm having a second conversationwith Kate Carrow, who I met in Sheffield
earlier on in the year, when we had themost interesting conversation about
homeschooling and coaching.
And I said to Kate, why don't you come toThe Coaching In and talk to us about it?
(01:31):
Welcome, Kate.
Hello.
Thank you very much.
It's such a delight to see you again.
So just give us some context about whatyou do with your day.
Well, I have two children who I'm homeeducating now, which feels a lot easier
(01:51):
because in total I've had six, but they'vegone to school at 14.
So now with my two boys who are eight andnine, we tend to get up at a reasonable
time and then they do their maths andmusic practice and they might do maths on
(02:14):
the computer.
of their own accord.
They might ask me to get involved or Imight be doing jobs on the computer
because I organize out of the box andacquire called Steel City Choristers as
well.
So I've got my work to do and they've gottheir work to do.
And they should do some, they know theyneed to do a bit of writing as well, a
(02:36):
few, a few spellings or copyright.
And then at coffee time, we then cometogether and have a snack and I have a cup
of coffee.
And we come together for stories.
And we start off with a bit of sort ofpresencing, kind of something peaceful to
(02:57):
bring us together in a relaxed frame ofmind.
And then we have maybe a couple of hoursof different stories.
And I read, and then they tell back whatthey've heard, so they're obsessing things
themselves.
And then...
Then we have lunch and then they have abit of free play.
(03:20):
And then we often do something later on inthe afternoon, like, or evening, like, or
going to see friends or beavers or choiror tennis.
So there's a lot of them takingresponsibility for their own learning.
Yes.
And that's been quite a big shift becauseI always felt quite responsible early on
(03:45):
with my...
older children who are now 20 and 18.
And I've had to learn to let go ofcontrol, trust that they can do it for
themselves.
Trust that children are born with aninnate curiosity and eagerness to learn
and they're interested in the world.
(04:05):
And if I can harness that, then that's themost powerful way of them learning.
But then you have to create.
some habits so that you've got like acontainer for the learning.
You have to create some habits of like, sothey don't question yet.
(04:25):
Like, okay, you always do your teeth onbrush your teeth on the morning and okay,
you always do your maths and some writingand some music practice on the morning.
So there's some expectation around it, butwithin those boundaries then to trust
them, to trust them and also to trust.
the content of what they're learning, thatit is really interesting.
(04:48):
Like I might not necessarily find mathsall that interesting, but I remember
talking to a friend who's a mathsprofessor when she had little children and
she said, the trouble with English is thatit's so difficult to know how to do
anything with English with your children.
(05:08):
Whereas maths, it's just everywhere.
Everywhere you look, there's shapes andnumbers and fun things that you can do
with the maths.
Her children were in school.
This was just the way she lived, enjoyingseeing the world through that lens.
Yeah.
And so there's all sorts of differentsubjects and it's learning to appreciate
(05:31):
that there's something exciting.
Wow.
Me feeling that and trusting that so thatthe children can have.
pick up and have confidence and not that Ineed to know about it, I just need to be
interested in it.
So you're trusting very young children todo some really great learning with a
(05:53):
little bit of facilitation from yousometimes.
Yeah, and quite a lot of play and they'lllearn a lot through play.
And some of that play can be like I cansuggest it.
Or maybe there's not maybe that sometimesit's not what's the difference between
(06:15):
play and and learning.
I'm not sure.
Maybe it's the fact that if I suggestsomething, then we should.
It's just the way that you do it.
It's not necessarily what the activity is,because any activity can be play for
somebody if they're enjoying themselvesand if they're in flow and they're
interested.
So it's the way that you introducesomething or the way that you do it
(06:41):
together or the way they do it themselvesdetermines whether it's a play or not and
all of it's learning.
I'm interesting.
I love the word flow and play andlearning.
Yeah, I think that's the most.
important.
It doesn't have to be play like, I'mplaying with my, I'm just playing with my
(07:04):
Lego and that's what I feel like doing.
It could be, it could be.
So today we had some friends around andwe'd all done a little bit of looking into
maps and then we, and then the childreneach brought something to show each other
about what they'd learned about maps.
And part of that was, we looked at contourlines.
(07:28):
And so I've got it.
Like we made with plasticine, we made ahill.
nice.
A knife.
We do the contour lines.
Yeah.
It's a show.
And then we and then we do the pictureonto a piece of paper.
And like and that was fun.
And that was I mean, it was it wasn'tplaying that they just decided that they
(07:52):
were just going to go and do that today.
It was I had decided that we were doingthis.
Well, we'd all decided that we were doing.
Yeah.
having this gathering about maps and thenwe did, and that was one of the
activities.
And another of the activities was playingbattleships because we were looking at
grid references.
And so that is, it's really, I don't thinkthere's all that much difference between.
(08:18):
play and schoolwork, if it's done in aplayful way.
And that's where most of the learning canhappen.
One of the things that we talk about oftenin coaching is what's the least that the
coach needs to do to facilitate the otherperson to do some thinking.
And it feels as though your philosophy ofeducation is what's the least that you
(08:40):
need to do so that they can do itthemselves?
yes, definitely.
Because I have to...
get out of the, keep out of the way of thechildren because they've got it in
themselves.
I need to suggest something and then, andthen sit back and see where, wherever it
leads.
(09:00):
Because I follow Charlotte Mason's ideas.
She was a educator in the Victorian times.
And she talked about getting, gettingyourself out of the way of the children
because they've, they've got this.
innate curiosity and playfulness anddesire to learn and we just need to get,
(09:25):
just need to keep ourselves out of the wayso that we don't squash it.
then it'll happen.
You don't need to do much.
But she's inspired you.
Yes, she I came across her ideas a longtime ago, maybe 15 years ago.
(09:45):
And I was I was quite excited by what shesaid.
But when I tried to implement them withthe children, then it just didn't seem to
work.
I couldn't quite understand how to make ithappen, how to get it.
them to be interested in these books thatwere being suggested and how to do a
nature journal that she suggested.
(10:06):
And I just couldn't make it work.
And over the years I've realized now we'redoing that style and loving it, but it's
been about me transforming myself, whichis what your book was about.
It's about this coach transformingthemselves.
Like,
(10:27):
With a nature journal, I used to suggestto the children that they go and do this
nature journal and then help them do itand then it would peter out.
Whereas now I've learned that I can do anature journal for myself and be genuinely
interested in doing it for myself.
(10:47):
And then that kind of becomes a norm andthe children can pick up on that.
And I think a lot of education...
The gap between the children who learnreally well and children who don't have
such good results in school can be whattheir home atmosphere is like.
(11:09):
And all these things that you take forgranted in the atmosphere of who you are
as a person and the things that you'reinterested in, that has a massive
influence on the children's education morethan any activities that you do.
It's about who you are in your characterand what you love.
(11:33):
I know that our listeners with children,some of them are doing a full -time job
and then supporting their kids to do thehomework in the evening.
And you're saying that you've moved awayfrom the rules and you simply let the
children find their way with a little bitof shaping from the outside sometimes.
(11:57):
What would you want to say to thoseparents?
Well, I think they can't, they mustn'tcompare themselves with, I'm not working
full time and I haven't got the pressureof the school asking me to do things that
(12:19):
I've got to do with the children.
That's different.
I think the main thing is for them to findwhat they enjoy doing with their children
and follow those interests.
and enjoy themselves with the childrenwhenever they can.
They've got to do what they've got to do,but otherwise the main purpose is to enjoy
(12:44):
the children and do stuff with them andtalk to them and let them talk to you.
Yeah.
So your children are in three buckets,right?
By the sound of it, you've got the oldertwo and then the middle two and then the
younger two.
So what's changed?
Can you tangibly notice what's changedabout how you be with them in this home
(13:06):
education space from the first two to themiddle two to the last two?
Well, my first, the first two and thesecond two, they're all quite close
together.
They were really a good four.
And I think I felt responsible that theyhad to get through certain things and that
(13:31):
I had to plan these things and also maybea bit more written work.
So we had more output that I could see theproof of what we were doing and that would
make me feel better.
better.
Whereas, whereas now there's not so muchproof, you can't, it's more about the
(13:51):
input.
There's not as much output.
And, and I think I would try to plan aheada bit more as what I was hoping to do.
Whereas now I try to be more spontaneousand just see what's available and what's
around and then make the most out of that.
So there's a lot.
I plan what books we've
(14:12):
storybooks and things we're going to read.
But for example, I thought I might do aplay, this term, a Shakespeare play.
But then I saw that the the Hyperchondriacby Moliere was on at the theatres in
Sheffield.
And I knew I had a copy of Moliere forsome reason.
(14:36):
So I just thought, well, let's just dothat because it's easier.
And...
and let myself be, just go with what'shappening around me and then make the most
out of that.
It feels more natural and it feels easierbecause...
(14:58):
You don't have to try to organize quite asmuch stuff.
You just have to make the most out of whatis around and, and enjoy that and be
present to that and realize every littlething is an opportunity to learn even if
it's an interruption or even if it doesn'tseem, even if it's something that gets
(15:21):
broken and then do something about it.
I mean, it sounds a bit idyllic.
I'm not, it's not idyllic.
I am putting any really on top of thingsin, I'll have my ideals that maybe I don't
live up to, but, but also I suppose, Isuppose as well, I feel more comfortable
because my older children have done well.
(15:44):
And I know it can't, I know that it's notgoing to be perfect, but, but it'll, it's
good enough.
And it has been, has been,
has been, has had good results.
I would probably do things differently ifI was to do it again.
(16:05):
Nobody's going to have to be perfect.
And it's quite exciting that it's, thatthe children have done as well as they
have despite me.
So you've got a confidence in the processbeing good enough that feels like it's
allowed you to lighten up a bit.
(16:25):
on your expectations of yourself.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes, that's right.
I don't feel...
And so then that allows me to enjoy whatI'm doing a bit more, which then becomes a
(16:47):
virtual circle because then the childrenpick up on that.
And also, I suppose I've learned...
I've learned what's important, what'simportant.
I went for science.
I used to not particularly like doingscience experiments.
(17:07):
And I knew about the scientific method.
But I would really worry about the scienceexperiment, whether it might work or not,
how interesting it would be, whether thetheory was going to be interesting.
Whereas now I feel like, well,
(17:27):
She doesn't, it doesn't work so much.
It's just, I need to be a calm presenceand notice, observe clearly, be
methodical, take notes, be interested, behappy with whatever we're exploring.
Even if it doesn't work, it's that's stilluseful.
(17:51):
Maybe talk about the forward model T beingthe T at the time that they'd.
try to make something.
It's just, it's those things that are moreimportant than the content of anything
that you're doing.
The content doesn't matter.
And the content of the children haven'tnecessarily covered the content that they
(18:12):
would cover in schools.
But they go in, they've been into schoolat 13 or 14 and they have got some gaps in
their knowledge, but they've got a goodattitude to learning.
They've got a sense of...
responsibility for their own education andtheir own self.
And so then they can pick up any extraknowledge that they need to.
(18:36):
Because they know how to learn.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's the same for, the children havegone on French and German exchanges and
they've gone for six months to France orGermany and then we've had a French or
(18:57):
German child back with us for six months.
And these French and German children havebeen in school in their country.
So our children go to school in France.
or Germany for six months when they'rewith them, but, and then these children,
when they come to us, they either go toschool here or they buy home, educate
them.
(19:18):
And so they do something completelydifferent for six months and then go back
to their home country.
And, and, and often they find that they,they're ahead.
They might miss some content, but they,they might be ahead with their maths or
they've just got to set their...
Character has grown, their brains mademore connections, they've had this
(19:39):
adventure.
It doesn't seem to matter that they missthe six months of content.
It's just your experiences and yourcharacter that develops and that seems to
be similar to anything in home ed, thatit's not about the activities and the
content.
It's just about who you are and how youare.
(20:06):
That's amazing.
Who they are and how they are as much andmore important than what they learn.
And, you know, in many contexts, but, youknow, particularly in coaching coaches get
very anxious about what do I do?
How do I do this?
What else do I need to do?
What else do I need to bring in?
And that feeling that value comes fromwhat we do.
(20:28):
But what a beautiful description aboutimmersing for six months when it's
entirely about who you're becoming and howyou be.
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, and the confidence that you can havein yourself.
Mm -hmm.
and the new experiences that you'rehaving.
(20:50):
Yeah.
That all come from exposure rather thaneducation.
Yes.
Or knowledge.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so.
that's quite radical with the six monthexchanges.
(21:12):
But in the rest of your life, it's aboutbeing exposed to all sorts of things as
well.
And so that's why it's about input andabout reading stories.
And I'm reading much more complicated ormore engaging, advanced stories to my
(21:32):
children now than I would have done withmy older ones.
Interesting.
So we've read, we've read Swallows andAmazons and the James Herriot books,
Shakespeare plays and.
(21:54):
And Moliere.
Well, yeah, and that was fun.
Did you just take it?
Also, I suppose because of this way of.
You take it.
you read a little bit and then you ask thechildren to tell back and they can tell
about what they wanted to say and youtrust them that they're going to sift
through their heads as to everything thatthey've heard and they're going to choose
(22:17):
what they think is the most interesting orthe most important and then they tell you
back and you accept what they say becausethey're the learner, they're doing the
work, you don't know what thoughtprocesses went to do.
in their head, so you can't see everythingthat they're learning.
You can only see what they're offering.
(22:39):
And it's not for my benefit what they tellme.
In any case, it's for their own.
It's their own decisions and their owneducation, their own journey.
And so they can't fail because you askthem to tell you something and they tell
you something.
And even if it's brief, then you mighttell them something too.
(23:00):
If they...
don't want, have hardly anything to say,then you can tell them what you liked
about it too.
So then you get to model that narration,we call it.
And you get to recap in your own wordsabout what you've just read.
So they hear it again and then you moveon.
(23:21):
So there's no, there's no, there's nopressure.
It's just, and it's all in small bits.
So it's short, short chunks.
And you're not leading them to the placethat you think they ought to be?
No.
Yeah.
I'm not asking them questions and ask, andI'm wanting to check whether they've got
(23:41):
the, they've been listening and had theright, got the right answer for me.
I don't mind what they've, what they'vecome back with.
It doesn't matter.
I'm really curious about what theconversation was like when you came out of
seeing Marlier's hyperchondriac.
Well, it was funny because he was, it wasquite, it was really comedic and much more
(24:05):
accessible than you might have thought.
And it was, and they, they talked aboutthe poster was quite different to what the
actors were actually wearing.
So they were like, why is that?
Why do they got a poster with this man ina black velvet jacket and a pink hat,
whereas actually he was all in beige andhe was small and skinny and on the poster.
(24:30):
And then we're saying, why are there nomore children?
Why weren't there any other children inthe audience?
And also it was rewritten by Roger McGoffin rhyming couplets.
It was funnier than the play, even thoughthe play had been quite funny too.
(24:56):
Wow, what a beautiful thing.
They probably understood it more than someof the adults in the audience, didn't
they?
Well, probably because we'd just read itand talked about it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you talked about Charlotte Mason.
(25:21):
What was her philosophy that so attractedyou?
She talks a lot about...
Education being an atmosphere and I heardother people who were following their
(25:41):
ideas about it being a life home educationbeing a lifestyle and So I was so although
I didn't understand it for a long time.
That is what attracted me to it this ideathat it was It education infiltrated all
of life all of character who you were whatyour whole family is like all the
(26:04):
nonverbal
things that you have around your houselots of stories and
art and being out in nature, abouttreating education as a as people as the
whole person is about your about thecharacter of the whole person.
(26:30):
It's about formation.
Rather than the transference ofinformation.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And.
Because it's about your whole personhoodand then a lot of the way that Charlotte
Mason suggests that you learn about thingsis through the lens of another person and
(26:55):
their life.
So she talks about using living booksrather than textbooks.
And so living books would be the story ofsomebody's life that's really emotionally
engaging.
often might start, if you're reading abiography or something, it often might
(27:15):
start with the person as a child.
So you get an insight into who they wereas a child and where their interests lay
and why they went into the field that theywent into.
So you can relate to them.
So you might be reading a science book,but we've just read one on Isaac Newton,
(27:39):
and you read it.
and you see him as a child and you hearabout how he was intrigued about these
workers who were building a windmill nearhim and how he...
and we were reading about Leonardo daVinci as well and how when he was a child,
he got some animals and collected them andthen drew them with perspective and made
(28:02):
it look really lifelike and his dadthought it was a real dragon or something
and got a copy and that was funny and...
And so you don't really sort of getting aninsight into people's lives and then
learning about their discoveries alongalong the way makes it I feel like can
(28:25):
relate more and it feels more accessibleand feels more relevant to you because as
you can imagine them as a child and thenyeah.
So a lot of connecting.
Yeah, she talks about education being ascience of relations.
It's all about relationships and alwaysasking, well, what does that remind you
(28:45):
of?
And seeing how everything interconnectsand noticing.
So like this book about Isaac Newton, thenwe've just finished it and.
the children have been writing.
We've had a group of friends, everybody'swritten a bit of a narration about each
(29:08):
chapter and then you put it in the postand it goes to somebody else and then you
get another book and then you write thenext chapter in the next book and put it
in the post.
But then we were watching Doctor Who andthen Isaac Newton was mentioned on the
Doctor Who and we went down to...
Cambridge for my daughter's advent carolservice.
And then we'd go past the Isaac Newton pubthere.
(29:30):
And then I was listening to a podcastabout children's curiosity and they were
talking about him there.
And there's always connections ineverything.
And so that's why we are always lookingout for those.
And you can't really compartmentalizeinto, I'm doing, we're doing history now
and then geography and then science.
I have to answer the council.
They'll ask me, what do I do for thesedifferent subject areas?
(29:54):
But.
I don't really, the children don't reallylearn in subject areas like that.
It's all, it's always just learning aboutlife and then making connections between.
That reminds me that in coaching often theorganization says that they want this and
this and this and that to be covered, butactually the conversation, the dialogue
(30:14):
and the growth comes from the connectionand the humanity of it.
Yes, the whole story.
So Kate, we met at an out of the boxworkshop, which is something that you do
and we've interviewed, we've had CatherineLord on here and Tula Valconen.
(30:39):
So for you, what's this connection betweenmeaning making and out of the box in the
way that you do home ed?
So a lot of the ideas for Out of the Boxcame.
for Catherine from Godly Play, but for mefrom Charlotte Mason and my experience of
(31:03):
home ed.
And...
Cause I, when we went into lockdown, Iwrote a little bit about home ed being
about the atmosphere and life and not justabout activities.
Cause people were needing to dohomeschooling, which was quite different
(31:24):
to, through home ed.
Yeah.
Catherine and I found a lot of connectionabout this kind of idea that it's about a
way.
way of being and how that way of being isthe most important thing.
And then we started this Facebook groupcalled Dooby Doo, which was about doing
(31:46):
and being, because we wanted to focus onthis idea of this.
So there is something to explore aboutwhat it is about being the most important
thing in any kind of activity.
And then I was talking about stories,being a vehicle for learning and...
being emotionally engaging.
(32:08):
And so then we, eventually that then ledto us designing Out of the Box because I
like the idea of using stories as a sortof stimulus for the children's learning.
We could use, we've developed wisdomstories for Out of the Box, but we're
going to develop science and historystories and things.
(32:30):
Cause we've got a story like a King Canuteand
the waves and then you tell the story inout of the box with the figures on the
sand or on the cloth and tell the storyabout King Canute trying to get the waves
to the sea to stop coming in.
And then the children then get to see thatenacted in front of them and then opening
(32:56):
up the dialogue around what did you likeabout that?
What did you not like?
They get to say what they want to sayabout the story and how it impacted them
and what they notice.
They get to play with the story and say,well, what would you do?
Where would you be in the story?
And they get to really engage with theirphysically, with the materials, but also
(33:19):
emotionally and with the conversation anddialogue about how do they relate to that
story.
And it's just fun and playful and light.
And that can then lead to more studyabout.
Viking towns or whatever, but it justignites an interest.
(33:40):
And you could have that.
You could have the same for a scientificcharacter, Gregor Mendel with his peas or
you could do all sorts of little storiesand they're only so short.
It could just be a little way ofintroducing a topic.
I think it would be, I mean, schools doloads of creative things, but this was
(34:04):
just another.
creative way that I think is really niceto get the children really talking and
because there's having their own ideas andhaving their own agency over something.
And for us as the adults to kind of getout of the way of them and just play.
(34:28):
Because you're inviting them to stand in adifferent place in the story, aren't you?
And getting them to look at the story fromdifferent
perspectives in a really simple way.
Yes.
And getting them to think about thehumanity, the people in the stories and
what were their motivations and why werethey doing what they're doing and playing
(34:50):
with the people and because the childrencan work out, make meaning as they play
and think about what it feels more playfulhaving little wooden figures and being
able to play in a group.
than just thinking theoretically aboutwhat were the motivations of the advice,
the king's advisors or, but to actuallyplay with it.
(35:14):
Yeah.
Inhabit it a bit more and you just have abit of fun and mess around and experiment
and there's no right or wrong, but I thinkyou can get, have more ideas and be more,
yeah, more creative if you just get achance to play with things like that.
Touch it, inhabit it, try it out, playwith it.
(35:37):
And then think, and then think about what,and then what does that mean for me?
Like, who do I relate to and how would Ibe in that kind of situation?
And...
And I felt with our home edge that when Iwas first home educating, then people
would talk about their children playinghistory stories and things.
(35:59):
And my children didn't do that so much.
Whereas now they do.
And I think it's because we, I give themmore input with more in a more relaxed,
playful, lighthearted way out of the boxis, and then I give them more free time to
play.
So they can play with their Lego, theirclaim a beer and, and, or.
(36:19):
free play in the garden or whatever.
And then you do see them then playing outthese stories.
They played out like Hengist and Horso whowere in a feast and the Saxons and then
they whipped out their daggers at the endof the meal.
It was terrible.
But they play that and it becomes theirown.
(36:41):
And then out of the box if children canget to play with the stories afterwards
and the materials, they can...
inhabited and it can become their own,they can relate to it and enjoy it and I
think it ignites a real interest inanything and you can have any kind of
subject in there.
I'm laughing to myself because it's commonisn't it for adults to say let's play with
(37:06):
some ideas but that's entirely in thehead.
Okay let's sit here and discuss.
otherwise known as play with some ideas,but you're talking about actually
touching, feeling, experiencing.
Yes.
And really, well, I used to work in, for amedia agency and there was one time when
(37:31):
we wanted to come up with some ideas for aclient.
I can't remember what the product was, butit was a, some sort of youth campaign.
And in order to get people to be morecreative.
come up with more ideas and things, thenthey invite, they sent everybody an
invitation.
It was just a meeting to brainstorm someideas, but you got an invitation to a
(37:54):
meeting that was a box with a, they openedup with a balloon, a helium balloon, and
came out and it said, come, come along tothis meeting basically, but in a fun way.
And then you went down to this meetingroom and there was bean bags and pizza.
And we were all supposed to sort of kindof pretend to be teenagers to
(38:14):
to get into the mood of thinking like thatin order to get more ideas to flow and be
more relaxed and playful.
And so it's good to inhabit and reallyplay with your body to then be able to
come up with more ideas.
(38:36):
Yeah, that's amazing.
That's amazing.
So what would you like our listeners tohear?
and to think about in relation to learningfrom what we've talked about around home
educate.
I think that learning is fun, thatrelationships are the main thing to enjoy
(39:03):
yourselves and...
and be interested, but have a nice timeand follow what you feel like doing.
and relax into it.
And I love how you've done this with twoseparate bundles of your children and how
(39:29):
you've learnt from the first go, so thesecond go, and that you still recognise
that the first go was good enough.
That's beautiful.
Yes, it's quite good to have six childrenbecause I can keep experimenting for a bit
longer.
Great.
Thank you so much for coming to the coachagain.
(39:49):
How do people get in touch with you ifthey want to talk more about out of the
box?
They could go to our website,outofthepoxstories .org and we're on
Facebook as out of the box.
Would be great to hear from people.
Brilliant.
I'm interested in the exchanges that'sAleph, the Association of Language
(40:09):
Learning on Famille.
A -L -L -E -F.
Brilliant.
Thank you so much, Kate, and what apleasure it has been to have you here at
The Coaching In today.
And thank you everyone for listening.
Bye bye.
Thank you.
If you've enjoyed what you've heard today,we'd love you to share the podcast with a
friend or leave a comment on social media.
(40:31):
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We look forward to welcoming you nexttime.
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