February 19, 2025 • 63 mins
In this episode of The Construction Cafe, Tristen Magallanes and Scott Brown explore the power of accountability in leadership. Through personal stories and hard-won lessons, they discuss the difference between accountability and responsibility, creating a culture of ownership, and how reframing questions can lead to positive outcomes. Grab your coffee as we dive into how leaders can brew a culture of trust, integrity, and authenticity. Don’t miss the final installment of our leadership series!
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Episode Transcript
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(00:05):
Welcome to the Construction Cafe, where the buzz of the construction industry meets thewarmth of a friendly conversation.
I'm your host, Tristen Magallanes.
Join me at our virtual cafe as we explore the foundations of construction culture, sip oncutting edge concepts, and amplify the unspoken voices in our industry.
So grab a cup of your favorite beverage, pull up a seat, and let's build more than juststructures, let's build connections.
(00:33):
This is the Construction Cafe.
Hey everyone, welcome back to the Construction Cafe.
I am here again with Scott Brown, and this is going to be our last episode on ourleadership series.
(00:57):
So I'm excited and also a little bit sad, but I'm sure we'll have other moments to haveScott Brown come back and talk to us about other things.
So welcome back, Scott.
Glad to have you.
Thank you, thank you so much.
And I'm here with my coffee on this brisk fall day.
It's really interesting that it's gotten this cold this fast and my yard is so full ofleaves, it's beautiful.
(01:21):
us Californians, it went from 90 degrees to, well, for me, really cold, which people inthe Midwest would probably laugh at that, but that's okay.
So this may be the last one to record, but it's actually the last one before we go intoemotional intelligence.
Well, depending on the feedback and how this goes, it would be fun to have additionalepisodes where we review books, different publications.
(01:50):
Ooh, when women lead.
I've heard different things about it.
So I have another friend of mine who we've talked about digging into newer books that areout there and just critically want to understand all perspectives and different things.
I've bought a few, bought, boughten, that's totally not a right word.
I've bought a few new ones lately and excited to dig into them with other people.
(02:15):
So, yeah.
about today's topic, accountability.
It's something that is extremely important in leadership and building teams and personallife and professional life.
for me, there's a number of publications that biographies to actually which which leadinto this.
(02:36):
But the one publication that
that I like to reference that's a very short read, quick and easy.
It may not cover everything, but it covers enough to give you some starting points to getstarted, which is by John Miller.
It's called Question Behind the Question or QBQ.
And it focuses on building personal accountability to drive positive outcomes in bothpersonal and professional settings, introduces concepts of questions behind the question.
(03:02):
which encourage individuals to reframe their thoughts.
Wow, now there's an interesting concept, reframe your thoughts, questions to emphasizepersonal responsibility rather than blame or inaction.
And so that is really an interesting thought process.
If you reframe your thoughts and the first place that they start with that is how you askyour questions.
(03:26):
Well, I want to back up a little bit first.
And we say the word.
I know, I know you're just you're I've had coffee, I'm ready to go.
You've probably been awake since 4am, although.
Admittedly, I also have been, but that was because of husband snoring this morning and Icouldn't I woke up and couldn't handle it anymore, so just got up.
(03:47):
But we use the word accountability and I think that means different things to differentpeople sometimes.
And so.
I asked the chat GPTs what they defined accountability as, and I also looked up just thebasic definition.
The basic definition said the factor condition of being accountable.
I'm like, that's not super helpful.
(04:09):
And then it added the word responsibility.
And I'm like, I don't know that I agree accountability and responsibility are synonymous.
the chat, correct.
And so,
The chat QPTs summarized it differently and said that accountability means that someone isanswerable for the outcome of a task or project.
(04:30):
Being accountable means that ultimately this person has to explain, justify, and takeownership of both the results and any consequences.
Responsibility is different and it's just specific duties or tasks that's part of yourrole.
And you're not necessarily accountable.
I think it's really, as we dig into this,
(04:51):
understanding that contextually what accountability because I think people assume it meansdifferent things and when we're talking about it I just wanted to tee up like that's what
we're talking about is this this excuse me like explanation justification taking ownershipof results and consequences of same you know that's what we're talking about and yeah
(05:15):
make a good point.
Embracing ownership is an interesting thought process, especially in construction.
Hmm?
So I had a mentor boss that early days of being a superintendent, when an issue wouldarise or something wasn't going correct on the job site, he would ask me straight out, you
(05:40):
know, what's going on here?
And in my young days, not knowing him well and not really understanding leadership well,
I would start with an excuse.
And he would stop me immediately and he'd say, he loved this phrase.
said, excuses are like crutches.
And right now I'm gonna kick your crutches and make you stand on your own two feet.
(06:04):
He said, take another shot at that.
And so I'd start again and I thinking in my own clever manipulative mind at that time, Ican outsmart this guy.
Yeah.
Right.
better excuse.
And it was at that point early in my career with him, he stopped me and he says, I'm gonnagive you one more chance.
(06:29):
And if you can't give me an honest answer to my question, I don't think our future isgonna last very much longer.
And I'm telling you what, that is accountability right there.
He's making me actually own my actions.
Yeah.
and I gave him a very straight, I mean it didn't take me long, I gave him a very straightand direct answer and he said, you and I are gonna have a very long career together.
(06:58):
And that was it.
Yeah, you've told me this this story before personally, and I always thought it wasinteresting because he was leading you to the path of accountability as best as he knew
how.
Right.
And I always think of accountability.
You know, there's my own accountability, but then helping others because I don't think alot of people are taught how to be accountable.
(07:22):
I think people are taught to be fearful of consequences, especially in this industry.
and he was helping you get there.
I might, admittedly, yeah, yeah, I mean, but admittedly, in my 20s, I too was like,approach things with responding with excuses.
(07:42):
And most of that is because in retrospect, I can look at the behaviors, I was terrified ofthe response of the if I said the real like thing, because I reported to people who
by and large were horrific bosses or leaders or whatever you want to classify them.
And their responses, regardless of like, this is what actually happened.
(08:06):
This is how I think we could maybe do this differently next time to mitigate this.
this is, know, it was just berating.
It felt like, like I like did something wrong at home and my dad was like screaming at me.
That was like my first 15 years in the industry and it fucking sucked to be honest.
But
shifting the environment differently in different companies as I moved forward withsurrounding myself with better people than that, or I wouldn't, shouldn't say better, but
(08:33):
people who just had a different way of handling things helped me, I guess, exercise myaccountability muscle differently and learn that similarly to how that gentleman helped
you in their own way.
Like you can take accountability and not be fearful of the consequences and creating anenvironment
where people can take accountability without being fearful of consequences, I think isreally, really important.
(08:57):
Well, what was interesting about that and that one first conversation resonated with meand it's still with me.
You can hear how freely I share that story, but it wasn't, he didn't just stop there.
It's not like, okay, you've answered me correctly.
He, he followed up with, basically stating to me, I don't care what it is.
(09:22):
I don't care how hard it's going to be to tell me the truth.
If you come to me with the straight out direct truth, regardless of how horrifying thatis.
Mm-hmm.
will work through it.
If you come to me with an excuse, there's no recovering from that.
And what he meant by that and what's interesting is, is we already talked about circle oftrust.
(09:44):
I was just gonna say that.
And that's what he was giving me was if you could create that circle of trust And let metell you, there were scenarios where I was young, things went at times, something would go
horribly wrong.
And I come to him and he also coined the phrase, and it may have been personnel, sort ofsubcontractors, that something happened.
(10:08):
And he goes, hard on issues, easy on people.
Mm-hmm
And he was full of those and he's like, listen, this is somebody that you trust, correct?
And I go, yeah.
And he goes, do you believe what they're telling you?
And I said, yes, I do.
And he says, so stop focusing on what happened and start digging in with them, not just mewith them to create a collaborative solution.
(10:35):
He was actually ingraining the circle of trust and accountability, not in me, butinstilling within me to create that.
in others.
And that was probably one of the greatest leadership skills that took me so far in mycareer.
The interesting thing as we're talking about this, this is also something I use with allof my foster kids.
(10:57):
That's one of the first things, the conversations we have.
shit's gonna go off the rails.
You're gonna screw up.
You're gonna do things wrong.
You're gonna break things.
You're gonna, that's gonna happen.
That's life.
And in my home, if we talk about it and we're honest about it and we take accountabilityfor it, we'll figure it out.
(11:18):
The first way to make the situation bad is to try to make excuses, to try to blame otherpeople, to try to not take accountability.
That's like the biggest thing that we try to instill in them from the very, very get-go inour home.
And they do.
They come to me with things that they probably wouldn't necessarily tell other adults intheir lives.
(11:44):
and they're honest with me about it and it has created growth and development in them thatthey hopefully can take forward in their lives with other relationships that I really,
really hope for them is positive.
So it's I think it's a little easier, honestly, for me to do this with the kiddos.
It's a little harder to do this with adults who have 30, 40, 50 years of like ingrainedbehaviors, you know.
(12:10):
But and some people, honestly,
in my career, there's some people I've just kind of given up on in this because it's justyou try and you try and you try and you try and they're just not.
Maybe I'm not the right person to say it in the right way that they're ever going tounderstand it and they need to learn it from someone else, maybe.
So I've moved on in certain in certain situations, but and I, you know, going back to QBQ,like I have in my time gotten stuck in my own victim mentality circulating in my own
(12:40):
brain.
Like, I think we've all been there.
Simon Sinek says it best, goes, who's the most toxic individual on your team or that youwork with on a daily basis?
And they go, everybody's gonna point to the asshole.
Right?
Yeah.
And then he follows it up by saying, so who's the one person on your team, regardless ofwhat's going on, you would go to with anything.
(13:04):
And he would follow that up by saying, there's your accountable leader.
There is the one person that actually has accountability that you can count on and that'sgonna move things forward.
I love that when he's talking about performance and different things, but.
Yeah, I strive to be the person that people point to.
don't know if I'm there, but I strive to be that person.
(13:26):
I want to create that environment.
Well, as a superintendent, there was a fine line between having your name scratched in theshitter and...
I can't believe we're talking about this.
This is great though, the last episode.
That's true.
If your name isn't etched in there with a few colorful words, you really...
(13:52):
Yeah, Yeah, absolutely.
had your name in the shitter, are you really doing it right?
No, I've I've definitely, I've also had that experience early on in the industry.
I've probably had some amazing things written about me.
It's funny because I largely don't care about those things.
(14:14):
It's funny, it's weird.
Well, let me just share another piece from my history with Jim.
And this is two sides of accountability and circle of trust.
So I was still on the same first project that I was on it with him.
As my first opportunity as being a superintendent, we have an inspector show up and heshows up to inspect, and he's new, he's a young kid.
(14:43):
and he shows up to inspect something and it's like he asked if I had some kind ofdocumentation to back up.
I think it was the epoxy that we used to set the bolts because he wasn't there to witnessit.
And so we come into the job site trailer and it was a cold fall day.
We come into the job site trailer and as we're coming in and he follows me in and it'swarm, I said, hey, would you like a cup of coffee while I find this?
(15:11):
and he gets really awkward.
And so I pull out the paperwork and I show it to him and he goes away and like 30, 40minutes later, Jim calls me and he was hot.
He goes, did you bribe an inspector?
my gosh, for a cup of coffee?
No, I'm dead serious.
(15:32):
I'm dead serious.
And I go, Jim, what?
He goes, this inspector went straight back to the to the office and stated to his bossthat you tried to bribe him.
And I said, Wait a minute, we walked in, it's cold out, we walked into the trailer, and Ioffered him a cup of coffee.
(15:52):
And he goes, That's it.
I go, Yeah, that's it.
Now, I had established
that circle of trust and that accountability in showing a pattern.
And this is like months into the project showing this pattern of not giving him excuses,being straight up honest with him.
And he said, I got you.
(16:14):
And that was it.
He got off the phone.
That's wild though, by the way, a cup of coffee.
So the lead inspector and the young man come back together.
Mmm.
And cause I guess the lead inspector for the city there, it was in Lebanon, Oregon, Jimgave him an earful.
Anyways, he brought him back and he said, Hey, the inspector says, he, we introduceourselves and everything.
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And he says, I understand there was a little bit of a misunderstanding today and I want tointroduce you to so-and-so.
This is his first day on the job.
He's eager to do well.
It's my understanding that the two of you, you're going to be seeing a lot of him, the twoof you may have gotten off to a wrong start.
And I said, well, I understand.
(17:03):
And I was very accommodating.
And I said, hey, if this is the ground rules of engagement, I can totally be on that sideof the fence.
On a cold day after we've been out in the rain to come into the trailer when there's afresh pot of coffee and offer a pot of cup of coffee, I wouldn't consider that bribery.
(17:24):
And the lead inspector chuckled a little bit and he says, said to the young man, he said,next time just take the cup of coffee.
Also, I just find that to be polite, but...
But the fact that so I don't know what was that, but there was another level ofaccountability there.
The lead inspector didn't want this young man to have, you know, a tainted approach to hisfirst day.
(17:52):
He actually came out and walked him through and made introductions and, kind of smooth thewalk.
And it was great from that point on, he was very thorough.
He was very much on point when there were things that weren't correct.
He was very on point with it and we addressed it.
But had he not come back with him and created some form of trust and accountabilitybetween the two of us, it would have been an ongoing war.
(18:16):
we can control and influence situations and contribute to a more positive solutionoriented around ownership.
And that is an aspect of accountability, is taking ownership.
That's huge.
You took ownership.
The owner of the company called you immediately because he was panicked.
In that situation, yes.
And accountability and a history of accountability creates that circle of trust and takingownership.
(18:46):
wow, that's huge.
When I had foremen on my job sites that would, I would give them the kick the crutchesspeech and they would stand in front of me and take ownership, I recognized what Jim was
creating in me.
And I saw it from the other side in what I was creating in them and taking ownership.
And what's crazy is once you show people the positive aspects of accountability and takingownership, it's not just your professional life.
(19:14):
It moves into your personal life and things can change.
Yeah, I know I agree.
And also I did tell you before we started recording, I have criticisms of this book too.
It's not criticism of this is all this is bad or anything like that.
(19:37):
I think it's just it's there is missing pieces of the conversation of this book.
So I think this book added with other things together.
is important to consider because the thing that I brought up is, you know, there aresocietal inequities that create power dynamics in different situations where it's hard in
(19:58):
situations for certain people to feel accountable or to be accountable or to holdthemselves accountable because of the environment or the situations that exist now.
Does that mean you can unlearn behavior and relearn better behavior in those situations?
Yes, but it can be different for different people.
And we need to recognize that exists and that is real.
(20:22):
And then it's not necessarily going to be the same.
Like my ability to take personal accountability and situation and feel comfortable with itis going to be different than yours.
And that just that isn't recognized in this book.
I mean the book was written in what 1995 also so I think people also weren't talking a lotabout that kind of stuff maybe.
(20:46):
So I think there's just pieces missing that I would like to maybe see a rewrite of it toinclude.
That would be kind of cool if that ever happened.
that is a really great perspective because it falls short in some cases.
It is a starting point.
And I'm not going to say that it's a fully encompassing starting point.
(21:08):
But one of the things that comes out in this book that, and we've talked about this inother episodes, coming from backgrounds of
traumatic experiences in your youth.
We tend to, and the excuses that I was giving was a survival mode reaction.
And what that actually is defined and what comes out of these pages that's mostinteresting is that we tend to find ourselves when we come out of that stuff and we can
(21:38):
see it in others.
In construction, you see it a lot.
Is this victim speak?
and this victim mentality.
And it does a good job of brushing back some of the dust that covers up this victim speakprocess and mentality to where you can actually recognize what's, there's a deeper
(21:59):
underlying issue in regards to accountability.
That comes it's not just that they it's not that they don't want to be accountable and youyou stated it yourself It's that there's some learned behaviors from past traumas that
Have not been outgrown Or moved or moved past and so this this gives you enough this givesyou an opportunity to kind of shift the dialogue to instead of
(22:26):
And you'll hear it in their answers too, because they'll answer you with why, when and whoinstead of what and how.
And so if you can shift the dialogue just that much, you're not gonna change their wholepsyche, but if you can shift how they answer you with what and how, they will quickly find
themselves moving away from that victim mentality and that victim speak.
(22:48):
It gives them another avenue.
Some of the examples, yes, I use chat GPTs to help me with, because I didn't have time togo through and read all of the book, admittedly, for the first time in our episodes, I did
not get through the whole book and I did use chat GPTs.
Regardless, some of the examples it presented of like the difference in is instead ofsaying, why don't they listen to me?
(23:11):
You shift that to how can I better communicate my ideas?
that is taking like an ownership of how can I communicate this differently now.
I also want to point out I can communicate 15 different ways the same idea and ifsomebody's just refusing because of whatever reason to hear that at some point you have to
(23:32):
say okay I did the absolute best I can in that situation and be okay with it and walk awayand I think that's sort of the piece sometimes it's a struggle for some people and it's
interpreted as a victim mentality but
I would argue it's not.
if you did the absolute best you can with the skill set and tools that you have, that'samazing.
(23:53):
Own it, move on.
You don't need to take ownership of other people's issues, problems, inequitablesituations.
And then the other example that it said is, and this is an interesting one because I hearpeople say this kind of thing.
There's a financial YouTube person I watch and his name is Caleb Hammer.
(24:14):
And I listen to the people he interviews.
And the question that it says is, why is this happening to us?
Like, I hear that kind of like rhetoric a lot of like, well, why, what was me?
Why is it happening?
And the flip in that question is, what steps can we take to improve the situation?
Now,
I don't know that there's always steps people can take, but just trying to think throughand consider.
(24:39):
And sometimes the step to improving your situation is removing yourself from the situationentirely.
you still have agency and accountability in that moment to remove yourself instead offixing it.
And that one took me a long time to flip the script from my history of basically worktrauma,
(25:01):
So it's interesting and I like that part of it is reframing questions or the way thatyou're talking about things because it actually helps you feel empowered to do something.
So you bring up something that I had overlooked and it wasn't in my binder.
Actually, there's a page missing.
I think I gave it to somebody.
One of the things that I often use when I'm talking about building a foundationalunderstanding of accountability, and it's not all about QBQ because you're correct,
(25:27):
there's a lot missing.
And it's a circle diagram and it's a very powerful diagram.
And I use this when I'm speaking to young adults and giving some leadership workshops andstuff.
And so the circle diagram starts with the center circle, which is things that I cancontrol.
I think I know this.
(25:48):
Yes, and then it moves to the next circle, which are things that I can influence.
Mm-hmm.
circle is there's two more actually, things that are of concern and things that are out ofmy control.
I just found it.
Yes, and so if you can, when you're talking about people that have victim mentality orthat have a low sense of accountability, it's interesting when you start asking questions
(26:21):
and creating a different approach to your questions.
It's like, this is one of the things that I try to use is what can you control today?
Mm-hmm.
How can we address what is happening right now?
Is this something that you have control of?
Is this something that you have influence of?
(26:42):
Is this something that's concerning or is this something that's completely out of yourcontrol?
And if you can actually get them to start thinking in this mindset and get rid of thewhite noise of, have no control over this.
Yes, it's concerning, but I have no control over this.
I might be able to influence this, but I'm gonna focus on the things that I have controlof.
(27:04):
You will find yourself creating within them a deeper understanding of their own personalaccountability.
And this is emotional intelligence, their personal accountability, and their understandingof accountability of others.
Hey.
like the way these connect with this better.
Like to me, I'm going to say it feels better.
(27:27):
It's understanding that accountability of things within your control, there are, butstill, even if it's outside of your control, your accountability in that situation could
simply be removing yourself from the situation.
Like that is still within your control to not engage in a situation.
(27:47):
So I don't, it's interesting because I, again, Jim, this was something that Jim would askof me.
He never gave me the diagram, but he would ask me the question, is this within yourcontrol?
Do you have influence on this?
And he would ask all of these questions.
What part of this is in control?
And it was always what and how.
(28:09):
How can you influence this?
What about this is concerning?
And these questions.
And so what I found was I would start bringing that to my personal life because my wifeand I love her to death.
She's amazing by the way, if she ever listens to this.
Props to her, props to her.
(28:30):
she actually, yes, she very much keeps me in line.
But on that topic, the thing that I love about her the most is she's so full of passionateemotion.
And when emotion starts to come into things that are going on, you have to stop and say,what part of this do you have control of?
(28:54):
Mm-hmm.
And it's like, because I see there's a lot of emotion and a lot of passion here and I'mhearing you, but do you have any control over this at all?
And she would answer me, should it be a long pause and she'd look at me and it's you neverwant to use reason on your wife sometimes when they're very emotional, by the way, go very
wrong.
(29:19):
I have the worst.
So she would go.
No, I don't have any control.
And I would, you know, I understand this is concerning.
Do you have any influence?
She'd say, no, I'm powerless against this.
And I'd say, so why are you spending energy here?
Because sometimes my brain just does.
I know, but this is personal accountability of who we are and how we fill our innerthought processes.
(29:46):
And this is a direct correlation in a really appropriate way to emotional intelligence andself-awareness and awareness of others.
Yes.
whether we like it or not, our first response to everything is emotional.
Like that's just automatic.
And it's emotional.
Now being able to recognize that and be aware, self aware of the emotional response andthen be able that takes that that to me is just like exercising in the gym and getting a
(30:11):
stronger squat, like it takes effort and time and patience and, you got to keep exercisingand do all your accessory work.
Like that's the same in this situation, like you have to actively engage in this in orderto get better at it.
I'm also gonna, I wanna throw in here though before I forget, because I will forget if Idon't do it.
The part that I hear people in these kinds of scenarios, and I've done this myself, ispeople bring in concepts of fairness.
(30:37):
Is it fair?
Like, and I think sometimes, and I've done this too, is I recognize it is not fair.
The situation is completely not fair.
It's also irrelevant because it's reality.
And that's a different conversation when it comes to accountability.
And it's a really hard, tough thing to start to unwrap and engage in and accept.
(31:01):
And I struggle with this because I definitely, fairness and equality are also two, likethere's a huge unraveling here of these concepts that can happen.
In a good way, it's just, I sometimes get stuck on the, it's not fair.
And I did that a lot in my 30s.
and I've shifted to it might be in an equitable situation.
(31:25):
I also have no control in this moment of it and I'm going to walk away and let it go.
Or I'm going to use what little bit of influence I have to try to create a small tinychange here.
And that will help me feel because right, it's an emotional thing.
I will feel a little bit better in this moment or
I turn the computer off, I walk away and turn my phone off and go exercise for a minuteand try to like move on.
(31:48):
Yeah, so
Did I cause you to forget?
no, no, no, no, not at all.
I just want to address something while it's fresh.
They're really, fairness has nothing to do with accountability.
That's where everybody goes.
They do.
And I'm going to tell you straight up, that's a crutch.
(32:08):
It's an excuse.
It is an absolute excuse.
this is why Jim was such an amazing mentor and his examples.
So I'm going to talk to you about in later in my career with him, we were planningprojects in Alaska and it was at the downturn of the economy in 2008 and nine.
(32:30):
And we had three restaurants,
already boxed up in containers, getting ready to go on to a barge to ship up to Fairbanks,Alaska to go build.
And I mean, I am driving to the port to witness the containers get loaded.
And he goes,
Stop everything.
(32:52):
Cancel the barge.
I'm like, what?
And he goes, the bank just pulled our financing.
And I go, and my first thing, well, that's not fair.
We've got to sign contract.
What are you talking about?
And he goes, this has nothing to do with fair.
This is reality.
I want him, he stops me in my tracks and he goes, pull the truck over.
(33:13):
I want you to hear me.
We are, only going to cover hard costs, no soft costs.
And so I want you to get your head around this.
He says, I literally just got off and this is how quickly he could take that circle ofcontrol, concern, influence and out of his control and actually focus his energy because
he did flex that muscle.
(33:34):
And he'd say, there's nothing fair about this.
This is reality.
We are going to do everything we can right now to mitigate the damages.
That is what's within our control.
Focus on what's within our control.
I don't wanna hear any more energy spent on what we cannot control.
(33:54):
And it was like, wow, that was a lesson.
You've done this for me several times where you've interrupted my whatever discourse I wastelling myself at the time and you've been like, can you actually control any of this
right now?
And you haven't maybe come out and said it specifically that way, but you've said it inother ways that forced me to pause and think and really, yeah, you're right, fairness
(34:23):
is...
It's just the reality of the situation.
It is what it is.
I really don't have control over this.
And I'm going to move on to other areas I can control and I can influence and I can make adifference in and focus on those things.
And it took like a year, I think of you really saying those kinds of things to me for itto start to stick.
But I think that's the other part is helping others in that, just like Jim did for you,you've done for me and I've started, I've been doing this for others too.
(34:52):
is being patient with others and having these conversations
Well, part of what this is, Tristen and it's part of the emotional intelligence package,and it's hard to put your finger on it directly, but it's about creating a
solution-focused environment.
But sometimes I just want to be mad about something, come on.
(35:15):
I'm teasing.
I know.
I know.
okay to take that to another level and damage your character, your brand.
It's not okay.
there's a part of accountability that I carry in myself.
And I was actually criticized when I left Rad Urban, and I'm not gonna name his namebecause he may listen to this, but.
(35:38):
And I said to him, I said, is there one thing that you could share with me that I have asa blind spot on my departure?
And he says, yes.
He says, you lead by example to the nth degree.
And I go, why is that a bad thing?
He says, you can be 25 miles into a 26 mile marathon.
(36:01):
And I'll ask you.
how it's going and is everything okay?
And with energy and enthusiasm, you're gonna tell me yes, whether it's correct or not.
You are gonna tell me yes and that is your blind spot.
And I will tell you to this day, I still struggle with that.
What was funny is when you first said like what he was gonna say, my first instinct was tosay blind optimism.
(36:30):
But I also know that it's not true all the time.
It's just that's your first instinct and your first response is that going towards thatoptimistic thing, which is one, something I love about you.
It's also sometimes infuriating because you're that's not reality.
But you're also open to having the conversation in the moment and also maybe that's notthe full story and we need to be realistic and not completely optimistic.
(37:00):
But you know that about yourself and I love that.
on my job sites as a senior superintendent, having superintendents and foremans under me,when we would do our team building and I'd pull them into the office and I would talk to
them in my team building and I'd say, listen.
This is gonna, you're gonna take this very harshly.
(37:20):
You're not allowed to have a bad day.
And they'd look at me and they go, well, what do you mean?
And I go, you're allowed to have a bad day.
You're just not allowed to have a bad day while you're on this job site doing your job.
And if you are in a position where you're having a bad day, I would much rather you stepup and say, Hey, I'm having a bad day and take yourself out of this scenario because what
(37:45):
you transmit to your crew and what you transmit and give the example of is what you'regoing to receive that day.
And that bad day is going to cascade into multiple bad days of getting that toxicenvironment back out of your crew.
I would much rather you own it.
Come to me and say, I'm having a bad day.
(38:06):
I'm to go home.
And if I understand what you're telling me to be true and correct, absolutely.
Let your second in command that is following your example have a great day.
it's something that, and you're not going to like this, it's a military discipline.
(38:27):
I'm sure it is.
But also, like, I get it.
Well, it's not even it's not even I don't think it's I'm not even looking at it as agendered thing.
I think it's.
man, where am I going with this?
So now let me, I know kind of where you're headed.
So we had a scenario, not to name names, in one of our meetings just the other day, wheresomeone came forward and shared that they were having a bad day and they had a difficult
(38:52):
time.
That is a completely different understanding of that concept.
In that environment, we would encourage people to step forward.
And I would encourage these superintendents and foremen to come to me and explain to mewhat's going on.
It's not like I don't want to know.
I just don't want them to transmit that into their day and their crew.
(39:13):
But like, we're human.
It's not like we can't always control that.
And so I feel like it's a little bit kind of short sighted in that sometimes there's a lotgoing on in our lives and authentically being able to show up.
I mean, that doesn't mean running around like cussing at everybody, screaming at everybodylike that, that kind of stuff.
(39:34):
Yes, like that's not the right thing to do.
But like some people are suffering from major depression or
you know, postpartum depression or like all sorts of different things to where they mightperpetually be having bad days.
And how do we help them authentically be able to show up and not try to tell them not notthat I'm saying you're saying this, but they could interpret this as I'm not allowed to
(39:57):
show up then.
And I don't think that's necessarily the right thing to do either.
So I would want to reframe that in a different way that helps people understand they cancome forward.
have their bad day, share that with everybody for support possibly if they're comfortableand their psychological safety in the environment, and then continue about what they're
(40:20):
doing in a supportive environment versus if you're having a bad day, remove yourself.
And I don't think that's what you intended, but that's kind of how I first got interpretedon my side.
you're correct, the interpretation of that and how I presented it was very much on point.
The other part of that is, is that this is a what and how action of emotional intelligenceand it has to do with...
(40:46):
understanding self-awareness, awareness of others, and group awareness.
So if you have the ability within your team that you're leading to share with them.
what is going on, they will allow you that day.
And it's not going to affect your leadership at all.
(41:07):
You're correct.
If you just show up and you're
They look at you and go, hey, go home and kick the dog or kick the garbage can.
you're just walking around like rah rah rah being rude and mean and whatever like yeah,that's that's yeah, well and yeah.
intelligence to understand your mindset and how you basically project to others, you'recorrect.
(41:31):
If you come out with empathy and you have a crew that trusts you and you trust them, andyou come with empathy and you share with them what's going on, and they are going to step
up and protect you.
Well, and that's to me, if that scenario is what's happening, that is a sign of goodleadership.
Ultimately, that's one, it's a sign of good leadership.
(41:53):
It's a sign of psychological safety.
It's a sign of a good team dynamic.
And that's kind of what this whole series is about is creating the scenario where you canhave a bad day and still show up and have that conversation.
And some teams have that.
under different leadership and I've seen teams where they absolutely do not have that.
(42:17):
And it's a very different feeling.
And, you know, I've had an incident in recent history that has triggered some of mypersonal PTSD pretty, pretty severely actually, which I wasn't expecting.
And in certain team scenarios and environments, I've been very fine showing up and beingvulnerable at admitting that and saying, Hey, I'm struggling.
So I might look different today.
(42:38):
I might not talk as much today, or I might not whatever.
And then in other team environments, I 100 % have no desire to share any of that.
I don't want to, like, I'm hiding it essentially, which is kind of crappy.
Those to me are signs of different, people, like, the teams that those are in have, areexhibiting different leadership skills and different leadership models
Well, what we're talking about is fostering a positive mindset and transmitting thatpositive mindset into others.
(43:04):
And that is an aspect of accountability.
Yeah, I mean, I think the term that I would put on it is fostering psychological safetytoo, which is something that I think back, honestly, when some of these books were
written, that wasn't something that people often utilized as a term, right?
But I think like modern version is recreating an environment of psychological safety forpeople through leadership.
(43:28):
And I would like if we could rewrite this, that's what I would probably term it.
So on that line of understanding, when you get to that point with your team or your leadsto where you can have this conversation about psychological safety and they're comfortable
with sharing that, your circle of trust has just gone to another level.
(43:51):
Now you have individuals that actually are emotionally engaged and
It's a look and a nod from across the job site and they can tell if you're okay or not.
And they are on it immediately.
Hey, what's going on?
Are you okay?
Yeah, I mean, I know there's different people.
(44:15):
Yeah, yeah.
And that is when you have an exceptionally high performing team that understands a highlevel of emotional intelligence.
And that's what these foundational pieces that we've been working on is about.
And it really is about accountability and accountability of ourselves, accountability ofothers, and being accountable for others.
(44:39):
Yeah, it really is.
And it's, I mean, you.
Yeah.
the first time in 15 years, I took personal time off with my family.
And because I have a level of trust with my team members that I have not had in 15 years,I did not look at a single email or open my computer because...
(45:03):
several of us FYI.
But you only called like two or three of us.
Some answered and some did not.
On purpose.
We made a pact.
We made a pact.
No answering.
was a change for me.
This was a big growth moment.
(45:24):
I know, I knew it was gonna be hard for you.
And if you're going to, and if I'm actually taking my own advice and, and actually sharingthis out for other people to understand, I had better take it to the full level of
understanding.
And that was huge for me.
And I got to tell you, I came back just charged, absolutely charged.
(45:44):
Funny is my husband recently, like I'll take, because I've had periods where I've workedlike 10 days straight through the weekend for whatever reasons recently.
I'm fine with it.
But I took a midweek day off to take a minute.
And I did, checked my phone like four times, my work phone, and my husband was like, whatare you doing?
(46:05):
I was like, well, what if, what if?
And he's like, one, it'll be there tomorrow.
It's a day.
He's like, and two, you've got a bunch of other people that'll be on it.
it's fine.
yeah, but what if they need have a question for me?
And they can ask you tomorrow.
So I struggle not because I don't trust everybody else, because I do inherently trusteverybody that are on the different things that I'm working on.
(46:30):
I think I just get so concerned that I'm going to fail them and not show up when they needme.
And that's a different, thing to work on for me as because it's just something I strugglewith personally.
But I was really proud of you for not answering emails.
(46:51):
So I had one email that was the reason that I called, that somebody put a pushnotification through my PTO message.
And I'm like, it literally at first read, and emails are tough because there's no realityof emotion.
(47:13):
You don't know, the words on the page could be, and I speak about this when we talk aboutprefab too,
You could be speaking about prefab to an audience and you could have the early adapter andthe late adapter asking the exact same question and you don't know if they're asking to
tear you down or asking to build you up.
And so those email came at me and I knew better.
(47:38):
I read it and it just resonated as kind of fear.
I know.
It was fear, and part of that fear was because of a reputation of an individual that sentit.
I think it was also just because you're passionate and you care about the subject, youreally wanted to ensure that you addressed it.
And I recognized when you called me, that was part of what was going on of but I reallyneed to answer.
(48:02):
I need to respond to this.
I need to be attentive to this.
Cause I really care and I'm passionate about this and I want to make sure I do a good job.
that's what I heard out of you without you saying it.
And also my first response is you need to not respond.
and you need to respond when you're back at work.
And you also need to specifically tell them, in the future, I'd like you to respect my PTOout of office notification and not do that again.
(48:27):
So to answer your question, I did hear you.
You did, almost word for word.
And by the way, I did not respond.
Good job.
did not respond until the second day I was back.
And when I responded and I came into the meeting the next day after I responded, Iactually asked him specifically, why did you think it was okay to send a push notification
(48:53):
while I was on PTO?
Mm-hmm.
And what was in the answer that I got was very interesting.
Body language speaks volumes.
He was like, I apologize.
I'm just so excited about where this is going.
I just, couldn't control myself.
I just am so energized about what's going on in this.
And I appreciate people who are excited and also respect people's time off, period.
(49:20):
It's there when you get back.
Like nothing in...
best part?
You actually helped me to understand, to take back my power and control from thisindividual.
Yeah, take your boundary.
I have I have I have on my email, because sometimes I know it did.
(49:42):
I know.
In my email, signature, I have a little note on it that says, I realize I might have sentthis out of normal working hours.
Please don't feel obligated to respond to me outside of your normal working hours.
Let me know.
Respond to me when when you're working, basically, because
I recognize sometimes I'm answering people on Sundays or late in the evenings or 4 a.m.
(50:05):
and I don't want people to ever think that they have to respond to me at that same time,ever.
I think that's something people have created and an unrealistic expectation withtechnology that has been created through email notifications and text messaging that I
don't like and I hold the boundary and I tell others.
(50:27):
it's okay for you to respond later.
And I purposely put that there because I know that I email at weird times and I don't wantpeople to expect that they have to answer me then.
Now, am I guilty of getting an email at nine o'clock at night and having to like respondto it?
Yes, I still do it too, but I'm trying to get better at it.
So do you understand how that simple statement at the bottom of your email createsaccountability for both sides?
(50:52):
It's pretty incredible.
Yeah.
I forget somebody else.
I mean, I wish I remember where I read it.
It was someone else.
Another, I think, thought leader shared it on LinkedIn.
And I read it going, you know, I'm going to do this because I think it's really importantto let others know that this is the expectation in the situation and setting a boundary
(51:17):
for them and myself.
And it helps me hold myself accountable to things as well.
And I've had several people point it out that they appreciate that it's there.
And they're like, so I wasn't stressed about answering you.
I just did it the next day because you automatically set the expectation that it's OK thatI don't respond to you immediately.
(51:37):
And I was like, that's awesome.
Maybe put it on your email, too.
I'd like to share that one of the publications that was left to me by Jim, and I stillhave this, the original copy of his Kicking the Crutches, is Brian Tracy's No Excuses.
Yep.
This is a really amazing publication.
(51:58):
If you can actually listen to it and take away from it and follow what they're saying inthere, this has a note inside of it from Jim that states, if you read this book and follow
the examples given, you will literally double your income.
And I'm here to tell you I've read it three times now.
(52:20):
was gonna say you read it a few times.
And all three times, I have, in all reality, doubled my income.
And it is, there's a lot of things in there.
There's a lot of, you have to discipline and a lot of accountability, takingaccountability for your actions and your daily routines and what you do.
(52:41):
it's a level of accountability that literally kicks the crutches in your life to stand andperform.
I would be, I haven't read it.
I am curious to read it.
And I'm also curious, also just because I, you know, I am somewhat ADHD, my husband hasADHD and time management and being accountable, it can be very complex with people who
(53:10):
have high levels of ADHD.
Just curious about like how,
it relates to it a little bit.
mean, this book was written, I think you said in 2010.
So it's newer publication than QBQ So how can you apply these principles also, you know,universally to people who are differently abled?
(53:30):
NeuroSpicy take this in a different way.
How do you transform these concepts and ideas to making room for all types of individualsto show up in their own unique way?
it's something I think about, and making room and space for that is important to me.
You can still be an accountable individual and have full-blown, really complex ADHD.
(53:52):
And I talk about that one because I have the most experience with it, with people in mylife.
and it's, just an interesting concept and I'm not saying I have any answers.
I'm just saying it's something I think about a lot.
yeah.
The last piece of this before we go, the circle diagram is probably one of the mosteffective.
I forgot about that one, I really like it.
(54:14):
And what's interesting is between the circle of control and the circle of concern is thecircle of influence.
And what's crazy is if you cannot influence or have no control, how much time are yougonna spend within the circle of concern?
(54:35):
Because the last one is no control.
And you're gonna, you're emotional,
aspect is either going to take you to when you're talking about concern is going to takeyou to, well I have to have influence now or it's going to take you to I have no control.
Hmm.
So if you jump from one side of that to the other, it's a really interesting thoughtprocess around educating yourself to understand, I really gonna spend, so I'm concerned,
(55:06):
but am I really gonna spend time to influence this or do I really need to just take theunderstanding that I don't have control?
just, found a good graphic where it's not like separate with a middle.
It's actually like nested circles.
And in this, I like the way this is presented and it says, circle of concern.
If I can't control or influence, can I accept it?
(55:27):
And the response is, yeah, and that's exactly what you just said is, can you accept it andjust move on?
And that's the part where I find some people struggle more than others.
I would say sometimes I get stuck there.
But having this, I like one, I really like this graphic.
I will share this and give obvious, you know, copyright to the person who made it, butit's a good one and I like the way that it's depicted and I think it'd be helpful for
(55:55):
people to see it.
So.
when I lost my job in LA for various reasons, and I'm not going to say that I didn'tcontribute to it in some way.
I had an opportunity approached by an attorney friend of mine to go after them.
And I looked at this and I said to this circle diagram or this diagram that you're talkingabout probably feeds it even better.
(56:21):
Am I going to spend the energy and the time?
And if I do spend the energy and the time, is it really going to equate to moving mycareer and my path forward?
Or do I take this lesson?
take my lumps as bad as it hurts and as much as I think I'm correct and move on.
(56:44):
And I chose to move on and my career has taken off like a supercharged rocket since thattime.
learned that exact same lesson both professionally and personally.
And I recently had to explain this to someone else.
And I can't remember who it was, but they said, and it was a personal issue.
(57:07):
And they were why didn't you just sue the crap out of 'em?
Why didn't you go after 'em?
You totally blah, blah.
at the moment, I really wanted to, to be honest.
And had I had the financial stability in my life at the time, I probably would have.
However, retrospectively, I'm glad I didn't because the time and energy and effort wouldhave been all consuming.
The outcome might not have realistically knowing how justice systems work probablywouldn't have been what I would have wanted it to be.
(57:33):
And I would have achieved probably nothing in the process.
So
It's really, it was hard for them to understand what I was trying to share with thembecause it's hard, because in the moment it's, you want like retribution or whatever
justice or whatever word you want.
a list, retaliation, retribution, you name it, it's on that list.
(57:55):
But looking at this, three circles of influence and thinking through it in thatperspective, I think is really helpful in those kinds of situations.
Now it might take a long time of acceptance in some of those situations.
That doesn't mean that you can't, I have flipped the script in some of this and I'vestarted to influence things now in my life that.
(58:18):
maybe doesn't directly affect that particular situation, but my hope is it will influenceother situations that other people won't have to experience like I did.
So I'm turning that and flipping that into progressively moving forward to help othersinfluence the situation better and differently for others in the future.
And that's how I feel like I've turned the situation around for me And I'm not going to gointo the details of the situation, but I do like I feel better about it now because of
(58:44):
that.
it took me a decade.
It's not an easy thing to learn.
Yeah.
where I am with it.
So it's really, really interesting.
I literally had the example of pulling to the side of the road, hearing Jim's voice in myhead saying, focus on what we have control of.
(59:05):
Mm-hmm.
that was how I was able to quickly make that decision and pivot.
I really, feel like...
what you and I heard that voice so clearly in that moment, even through all of the anger,the rage, the I've been wrong, this isn't fair.
All of that came to the surface and boiled up.
I'm not gonna tell you that I didn't feel all of that.
(59:28):
It was every bit of that and then some was there.
And then on top of all of that, I heard the voice say, what of this do you have controlof?
And also, are you gonna waste your time and energy?
with something that you don't understand what you control out of this, or you're gonna getyour focus on what you can control and move forward in a positive way.
(59:50):
And I opted to move forward in a positive way.
You know, I think it's really cool that I know Jim is no longer with us.
No crying Tristen.
You're gonna make me cry.
I know, no crying.
But I think it's really amazing how he lives through you.
And you're kind of passing these true, like heartfelt knowledge things on to me.
(01:00:15):
And now we're sharing it with the world.
Like I find that kind of an incredible, momentum of learning that is just, I think, uniqueand interesting and kind of amazing to me that I've never met this man.
But I feel like I know him in so many ways because of all these things you've shared withme about him, about things he's helped you understand, about your own actions and how you
(01:00:40):
treat me and others around you.
And it's just the coolest, it's like the ultimate leadership.
Even like he left, he's left a legacy of leadership.
And that's.
is how people speak about you when you're gone.
It's just phenomenal to me.
And he...
I know.
I struggle to say his name without getting welled up with tears.
(01:01:05):
Because he truly created a gift within me that I could, the only way I can repay it is toinstill it in others.
I know.
that's what we've I think part of what we started to do with this, this whole seriestogether is I recognize this when we started talking about a lot of this of like, you've
talked about writing a book.
(01:01:26):
And I know that I knew that that format of sharing might not be the right thing for you.
And I was like, how about we record this and
it's turned into something pretty amazing.
And I just want to acknowledge the hard work that you've put in in that and that sharingforward and it's imperfect, right?
There's so much more learning here.
There's so many more conversations that can happen and we can continue to grow together.
(01:01:48):
And I, it's for, you know, a lot of this stems from an individual I've never even met, butI find to be an incredible person, an incredible human.
And I'm thankful that he shared it with you so that you're sharing it with me and we'resharing it with that.
Like, it's just awesome to me.
So thank you for.
And I appreciate you letting me share because that voice has been inside of me that needsto come out.
(01:02:11):
I know, it's awesome.
everything that I do.
And it is so clear the impact that he's had on my life and the impact that that hascreated with so many others.
And that to me is just the ultimate leadership right there.
So, well, I think we're gonna wrap up today on that.
(01:02:32):
If you followed along the whole series, I love it.
We'd love to hear feedback.
We'd love to have more conversations.
If you have an idea and you wanna come on and talk to both of us or one of us.
let me know.
And yeah, thanks again, Scott, for sharing all these things.
been amazing.
Cannot wait.
Thanks.
Bye for now.
(01:02:58):
Thank you for tuning in to today's episode of The Construction Cafe.
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Welcome to the Construction Cafe, where the buzz of the construction industry meets thewarmth of a friendly conversation.
I'm your host, Tristen Magallanes.
Join me at our virtual cafe as we explore the foundations of construction culture, sip oncutting edge concepts, and amplify the unspoken voices in our industry.
So grab a cup of your favorite beverage, pull up a seat, and let's build more than juststructures, let's build connections.
(00:33):
This is the Construction Cafe.
Hey everyone, welcome back to the Construction Cafe.
I am here again with Scott Brown, and this is going to be our last episode on ourleadership series.
(00:57):
So I'm excited and also a little bit sad, but I'm sure we'll have other moments to haveScott Brown come back and talk to us about other things.
So welcome back, Scott.
Glad to have you.
Thank you, thank you so much.
And I'm here with my coffee on this brisk fall day.
It's really interesting that it's gotten this cold this fast and my yard is so full ofleaves, it's beautiful.
(01:21):
us Californians, it went from 90 degrees to, well, for me, really cold, which people inthe Midwest would probably laugh at that, but that's okay.
So this may be the last one to record, but it's actually the last one before we go intoemotional intelligence.
Well, depending on the feedback and how this goes, it would be fun to have additionalepisodes where we review books, different publications.
(01:50):
Ooh, when women lead.
I've heard different things about it.
So I have another friend of mine who we've talked about digging into newer books that areout there and just critically want to understand all perspectives and different things.
I've bought a few, bought, boughten, that's totally not a right word.
I've bought a few new ones lately and excited to dig into them with other people.
(02:15):
So, yeah.
about today's topic, accountability.
It's something that is extremely important in leadership and building teams and personallife and professional life.
for me, there's a number of publications that biographies to actually which which leadinto this.
(02:36):
But the one publication that
that I like to reference that's a very short read, quick and easy.
It may not cover everything, but it covers enough to give you some starting points to getstarted, which is by John Miller.
It's called Question Behind the Question or QBQ.
And it focuses on building personal accountability to drive positive outcomes in bothpersonal and professional settings, introduces concepts of questions behind the question.
(03:02):
which encourage individuals to reframe their thoughts.
Wow, now there's an interesting concept, reframe your thoughts, questions to emphasizepersonal responsibility rather than blame or inaction.
And so that is really an interesting thought process.
If you reframe your thoughts and the first place that they start with that is how you askyour questions.
(03:26):
Well, I want to back up a little bit first.
And we say the word.
I know, I know you're just you're I've had coffee, I'm ready to go.
You've probably been awake since 4am, although.
Admittedly, I also have been, but that was because of husband snoring this morning and Icouldn't I woke up and couldn't handle it anymore, so just got up.
(03:47):
But we use the word accountability and I think that means different things to differentpeople sometimes.
And so.
I asked the chat GPTs what they defined accountability as, and I also looked up just thebasic definition.
The basic definition said the factor condition of being accountable.
I'm like, that's not super helpful.
(04:09):
And then it added the word responsibility.
And I'm like, I don't know that I agree accountability and responsibility are synonymous.
the chat, correct.
And so,
The chat QPTs summarized it differently and said that accountability means that someone isanswerable for the outcome of a task or project.
(04:30):
Being accountable means that ultimately this person has to explain, justify, and takeownership of both the results and any consequences.
Responsibility is different and it's just specific duties or tasks that's part of yourrole.
And you're not necessarily accountable.
I think it's really, as we dig into this,
(04:51):
understanding that contextually what accountability because I think people assume it meansdifferent things and when we're talking about it I just wanted to tee up like that's what
we're talking about is this this excuse me like explanation justification taking ownershipof results and consequences of same you know that's what we're talking about and yeah
(05:15):
make a good point.
Embracing ownership is an interesting thought process, especially in construction.
Hmm?
So I had a mentor boss that early days of being a superintendent, when an issue wouldarise or something wasn't going correct on the job site, he would ask me straight out, you
(05:40):
know, what's going on here?
And in my young days, not knowing him well and not really understanding leadership well,
I would start with an excuse.
And he would stop me immediately and he'd say, he loved this phrase.
said, excuses are like crutches.
And right now I'm gonna kick your crutches and make you stand on your own two feet.
(06:04):
He said, take another shot at that.
And so I'd start again and I thinking in my own clever manipulative mind at that time, Ican outsmart this guy.
Yeah.
Right.
better excuse.
And it was at that point early in my career with him, he stopped me and he says, I'm gonnagive you one more chance.
(06:29):
And if you can't give me an honest answer to my question, I don't think our future isgonna last very much longer.
And I'm telling you what, that is accountability right there.
He's making me actually own my actions.
Yeah.
and I gave him a very straight, I mean it didn't take me long, I gave him a very straightand direct answer and he said, you and I are gonna have a very long career together.
(06:58):
And that was it.
Yeah, you've told me this this story before personally, and I always thought it wasinteresting because he was leading you to the path of accountability as best as he knew
how.
Right.
And I always think of accountability.
You know, there's my own accountability, but then helping others because I don't think alot of people are taught how to be accountable.
(07:22):
I think people are taught to be fearful of consequences, especially in this industry.
and he was helping you get there.
I might, admittedly, yeah, yeah, I mean, but admittedly, in my 20s, I too was like,approach things with responding with excuses.
(07:42):
And most of that is because in retrospect, I can look at the behaviors, I was terrified ofthe response of the if I said the real like thing, because I reported to people who
by and large were horrific bosses or leaders or whatever you want to classify them.
And their responses, regardless of like, this is what actually happened.
(08:06):
This is how I think we could maybe do this differently next time to mitigate this.
this is, know, it was just berating.
It felt like, like I like did something wrong at home and my dad was like screaming at me.
That was like my first 15 years in the industry and it fucking sucked to be honest.
But
shifting the environment differently in different companies as I moved forward withsurrounding myself with better people than that, or I wouldn't, shouldn't say better, but
(08:33):
people who just had a different way of handling things helped me, I guess, exercise myaccountability muscle differently and learn that similarly to how that gentleman helped
you in their own way.
Like you can take accountability and not be fearful of the consequences and creating anenvironment
where people can take accountability without being fearful of consequences, I think isreally, really important.
(08:57):
Well, what was interesting about that and that one first conversation resonated with meand it's still with me.
You can hear how freely I share that story, but it wasn't, he didn't just stop there.
It's not like, okay, you've answered me correctly.
He, he followed up with, basically stating to me, I don't care what it is.
(09:22):
I don't care how hard it's going to be to tell me the truth.
If you come to me with the straight out direct truth, regardless of how horrifying thatis.
Mm-hmm.
will work through it.
If you come to me with an excuse, there's no recovering from that.
And what he meant by that and what's interesting is, is we already talked about circle oftrust.
(09:44):
I was just gonna say that.
And that's what he was giving me was if you could create that circle of trust And let metell you, there were scenarios where I was young, things went at times, something would go
horribly wrong.
And I come to him and he also coined the phrase, and it may have been personnel, sort ofsubcontractors, that something happened.
(10:08):
And he goes, hard on issues, easy on people.
Mm-hmm
And he was full of those and he's like, listen, this is somebody that you trust, correct?
And I go, yeah.
And he goes, do you believe what they're telling you?
And I said, yes, I do.
And he says, so stop focusing on what happened and start digging in with them, not just mewith them to create a collaborative solution.
(10:35):
He was actually ingraining the circle of trust and accountability, not in me, butinstilling within me to create that.
in others.
And that was probably one of the greatest leadership skills that took me so far in mycareer.
The interesting thing as we're talking about this, this is also something I use with allof my foster kids.
(10:57):
That's one of the first things, the conversations we have.
shit's gonna go off the rails.
You're gonna screw up.
You're gonna do things wrong.
You're gonna break things.
You're gonna, that's gonna happen.
That's life.
And in my home, if we talk about it and we're honest about it and we take accountabilityfor it, we'll figure it out.
(11:18):
The first way to make the situation bad is to try to make excuses, to try to blame otherpeople, to try to not take accountability.
That's like the biggest thing that we try to instill in them from the very, very get-go inour home.
And they do.
They come to me with things that they probably wouldn't necessarily tell other adults intheir lives.
(11:44):
and they're honest with me about it and it has created growth and development in them thatthey hopefully can take forward in their lives with other relationships that I really,
really hope for them is positive.
So it's I think it's a little easier, honestly, for me to do this with the kiddos.
It's a little harder to do this with adults who have 30, 40, 50 years of like ingrainedbehaviors, you know.
(12:10):
But and some people, honestly,
in my career, there's some people I've just kind of given up on in this because it's justyou try and you try and you try and you try and they're just not.
Maybe I'm not the right person to say it in the right way that they're ever going tounderstand it and they need to learn it from someone else, maybe.
So I've moved on in certain in certain situations, but and I, you know, going back to QBQ,like I have in my time gotten stuck in my own victim mentality circulating in my own
(12:40):
brain.
Like, I think we've all been there.
Simon Sinek says it best, goes, who's the most toxic individual on your team or that youwork with on a daily basis?
And they go, everybody's gonna point to the asshole.
Right?
Yeah.
And then he follows it up by saying, so who's the one person on your team, regardless ofwhat's going on, you would go to with anything.
(13:04):
And he would follow that up by saying, there's your accountable leader.
There is the one person that actually has accountability that you can count on and that'sgonna move things forward.
I love that when he's talking about performance and different things, but.
Yeah, I strive to be the person that people point to.
don't know if I'm there, but I strive to be that person.
(13:26):
I want to create that environment.
Well, as a superintendent, there was a fine line between having your name scratched in theshitter and...
I can't believe we're talking about this.
This is great though, the last episode.
That's true.
If your name isn't etched in there with a few colorful words, you really...
(13:52):
Yeah, Yeah, absolutely.
had your name in the shitter, are you really doing it right?
No, I've I've definitely, I've also had that experience early on in the industry.
I've probably had some amazing things written about me.
It's funny because I largely don't care about those things.
(14:14):
It's funny, it's weird.
Well, let me just share another piece from my history with Jim.
And this is two sides of accountability and circle of trust.
So I was still on the same first project that I was on it with him.
As my first opportunity as being a superintendent, we have an inspector show up and heshows up to inspect, and he's new, he's a young kid.
(14:43):
and he shows up to inspect something and it's like he asked if I had some kind ofdocumentation to back up.
I think it was the epoxy that we used to set the bolts because he wasn't there to witnessit.
And so we come into the job site trailer and it was a cold fall day.
We come into the job site trailer and as we're coming in and he follows me in and it'swarm, I said, hey, would you like a cup of coffee while I find this?
(15:11):
and he gets really awkward.
And so I pull out the paperwork and I show it to him and he goes away and like 30, 40minutes later, Jim calls me and he was hot.
He goes, did you bribe an inspector?
my gosh, for a cup of coffee?
No, I'm dead serious.
(15:32):
I'm dead serious.
And I go, Jim, what?
He goes, this inspector went straight back to the to the office and stated to his bossthat you tried to bribe him.
And I said, Wait a minute, we walked in, it's cold out, we walked into the trailer, and Ioffered him a cup of coffee.
(15:52):
And he goes, That's it.
I go, Yeah, that's it.
Now, I had established
that circle of trust and that accountability in showing a pattern.
And this is like months into the project showing this pattern of not giving him excuses,being straight up honest with him.
And he said, I got you.
(16:14):
And that was it.
He got off the phone.
That's wild though, by the way, a cup of coffee.
So the lead inspector and the young man come back together.
Mmm.
And cause I guess the lead inspector for the city there, it was in Lebanon, Oregon, Jimgave him an earful.
Anyways, he brought him back and he said, Hey, the inspector says, he, we introduceourselves and everything.
(16:42):
And he says, I understand there was a little bit of a misunderstanding today and I want tointroduce you to so-and-so.
This is his first day on the job.
He's eager to do well.
It's my understanding that the two of you, you're going to be seeing a lot of him, the twoof you may have gotten off to a wrong start.
And I said, well, I understand.
(17:03):
And I was very accommodating.
And I said, hey, if this is the ground rules of engagement, I can totally be on that sideof the fence.
On a cold day after we've been out in the rain to come into the trailer when there's afresh pot of coffee and offer a pot of cup of coffee, I wouldn't consider that bribery.
(17:24):
And the lead inspector chuckled a little bit and he says, said to the young man, he said,next time just take the cup of coffee.
Also, I just find that to be polite, but...
But the fact that so I don't know what was that, but there was another level ofaccountability there.
The lead inspector didn't want this young man to have, you know, a tainted approach to hisfirst day.
(17:52):
He actually came out and walked him through and made introductions and, kind of smooth thewalk.
And it was great from that point on, he was very thorough.
He was very much on point when there were things that weren't correct.
He was very on point with it and we addressed it.
But had he not come back with him and created some form of trust and accountabilitybetween the two of us, it would have been an ongoing war.
(18:16):
we can control and influence situations and contribute to a more positive solutionoriented around ownership.
And that is an aspect of accountability, is taking ownership.
That's huge.
You took ownership.
The owner of the company called you immediately because he was panicked.
In that situation, yes.
And accountability and a history of accountability creates that circle of trust and takingownership.
(18:46):
wow, that's huge.
When I had foremen on my job sites that would, I would give them the kick the crutchesspeech and they would stand in front of me and take ownership, I recognized what Jim was
creating in me.
And I saw it from the other side in what I was creating in them and taking ownership.
And what's crazy is once you show people the positive aspects of accountability and takingownership, it's not just your professional life.
(19:14):
It moves into your personal life and things can change.
Yeah, I know I agree.
And also I did tell you before we started recording, I have criticisms of this book too.
It's not criticism of this is all this is bad or anything like that.
(19:37):
I think it's just it's there is missing pieces of the conversation of this book.
So I think this book added with other things together.
is important to consider because the thing that I brought up is, you know, there aresocietal inequities that create power dynamics in different situations where it's hard in
(19:58):
situations for certain people to feel accountable or to be accountable or to holdthemselves accountable because of the environment or the situations that exist now.
Does that mean you can unlearn behavior and relearn better behavior in those situations?
Yes, but it can be different for different people.
And we need to recognize that exists and that is real.
(20:22):
And then it's not necessarily going to be the same.
Like my ability to take personal accountability and situation and feel comfortable with itis going to be different than yours.
And that just that isn't recognized in this book.
I mean the book was written in what 1995 also so I think people also weren't talking a lotabout that kind of stuff maybe.
(20:46):
So I think there's just pieces missing that I would like to maybe see a rewrite of it toinclude.
That would be kind of cool if that ever happened.
that is a really great perspective because it falls short in some cases.
It is a starting point.
And I'm not going to say that it's a fully encompassing starting point.
(21:08):
But one of the things that comes out in this book that, and we've talked about this inother episodes, coming from backgrounds of
traumatic experiences in your youth.
We tend to, and the excuses that I was giving was a survival mode reaction.
And what that actually is defined and what comes out of these pages that's mostinteresting is that we tend to find ourselves when we come out of that stuff and we can
(21:38):
see it in others.
In construction, you see it a lot.
Is this victim speak?
and this victim mentality.
And it does a good job of brushing back some of the dust that covers up this victim speakprocess and mentality to where you can actually recognize what's, there's a deeper
(21:59):
underlying issue in regards to accountability.
That comes it's not just that they it's not that they don't want to be accountable and youyou stated it yourself It's that there's some learned behaviors from past traumas that
Have not been outgrown Or moved or moved past and so this this gives you enough this givesyou an opportunity to kind of shift the dialogue to instead of
(22:26):
And you'll hear it in their answers too, because they'll answer you with why, when and whoinstead of what and how.
And so if you can shift the dialogue just that much, you're not gonna change their wholepsyche, but if you can shift how they answer you with what and how, they will quickly find
themselves moving away from that victim mentality and that victim speak.
(22:48):
It gives them another avenue.
Some of the examples, yes, I use chat GPTs to help me with, because I didn't have time togo through and read all of the book, admittedly, for the first time in our episodes, I did
not get through the whole book and I did use chat GPTs.
Regardless, some of the examples it presented of like the difference in is instead ofsaying, why don't they listen to me?
(23:11):
You shift that to how can I better communicate my ideas?
that is taking like an ownership of how can I communicate this differently now.
I also want to point out I can communicate 15 different ways the same idea and ifsomebody's just refusing because of whatever reason to hear that at some point you have to
(23:32):
say okay I did the absolute best I can in that situation and be okay with it and walk awayand I think that's sort of the piece sometimes it's a struggle for some people and it's
interpreted as a victim mentality but
I would argue it's not.
if you did the absolute best you can with the skill set and tools that you have, that'samazing.
(23:53):
Own it, move on.
You don't need to take ownership of other people's issues, problems, inequitablesituations.
And then the other example that it said is, and this is an interesting one because I hearpeople say this kind of thing.
There's a financial YouTube person I watch and his name is Caleb Hammer.
(24:14):
And I listen to the people he interviews.
And the question that it says is, why is this happening to us?
Like, I hear that kind of like rhetoric a lot of like, well, why, what was me?
Why is it happening?
And the flip in that question is, what steps can we take to improve the situation?
Now,
I don't know that there's always steps people can take, but just trying to think throughand consider.
(24:39):
And sometimes the step to improving your situation is removing yourself from the situationentirely.
you still have agency and accountability in that moment to remove yourself instead offixing it.
And that one took me a long time to flip the script from my history of basically worktrauma,
(25:01):
So it's interesting and I like that part of it is reframing questions or the way thatyou're talking about things because it actually helps you feel empowered to do something.
So you bring up something that I had overlooked and it wasn't in my binder.
Actually, there's a page missing.
I think I gave it to somebody.
One of the things that I often use when I'm talking about building a foundationalunderstanding of accountability, and it's not all about QBQ because you're correct,
(25:27):
there's a lot missing.
And it's a circle diagram and it's a very powerful diagram.
And I use this when I'm speaking to young adults and giving some leadership workshops andstuff.
And so the circle diagram starts with the center circle, which is things that I cancontrol.
I think I know this.
(25:48):
Yes, and then it moves to the next circle, which are things that I can influence.
Mm-hmm.
circle is there's two more actually, things that are of concern and things that are out ofmy control.
I just found it.
Yes, and so if you can, when you're talking about people that have victim mentality orthat have a low sense of accountability, it's interesting when you start asking questions
(26:21):
and creating a different approach to your questions.
It's like, this is one of the things that I try to use is what can you control today?
Mm-hmm.
How can we address what is happening right now?
Is this something that you have control of?
Is this something that you have influence of?
(26:42):
Is this something that's concerning or is this something that's completely out of yourcontrol?
And if you can actually get them to start thinking in this mindset and get rid of thewhite noise of, have no control over this.
Yes, it's concerning, but I have no control over this.
I might be able to influence this, but I'm gonna focus on the things that I have controlof.
(27:04):
You will find yourself creating within them a deeper understanding of their own personalaccountability.
And this is emotional intelligence, their personal accountability, and their understandingof accountability of others.
Hey.
like the way these connect with this better.
Like to me, I'm going to say it feels better.
(27:27):
It's understanding that accountability of things within your control, there are, butstill, even if it's outside of your control, your accountability in that situation could
simply be removing yourself from the situation.
Like that is still within your control to not engage in a situation.
(27:47):
So I don't, it's interesting because I, again, Jim, this was something that Jim would askof me.
He never gave me the diagram, but he would ask me the question, is this within yourcontrol?
Do you have influence on this?
And he would ask all of these questions.
What part of this is in control?
And it was always what and how.
(28:09):
How can you influence this?
What about this is concerning?
And these questions.
And so what I found was I would start bringing that to my personal life because my wifeand I love her to death.
She's amazing by the way, if she ever listens to this.
Props to her, props to her.
(28:30):
she actually, yes, she very much keeps me in line.
But on that topic, the thing that I love about her the most is she's so full of passionateemotion.
And when emotion starts to come into things that are going on, you have to stop and say,what part of this do you have control of?
(28:54):
Mm-hmm.
And it's like, because I see there's a lot of emotion and a lot of passion here and I'mhearing you, but do you have any control over this at all?
And she would answer me, should it be a long pause and she'd look at me and it's you neverwant to use reason on your wife sometimes when they're very emotional, by the way, go very
wrong.
(29:19):
I have the worst.
So she would go.
No, I don't have any control.
And I would, you know, I understand this is concerning.
Do you have any influence?
She'd say, no, I'm powerless against this.
And I'd say, so why are you spending energy here?
Because sometimes my brain just does.
I know, but this is personal accountability of who we are and how we fill our innerthought processes.
(29:46):
And this is a direct correlation in a really appropriate way to emotional intelligence andself-awareness and awareness of others.
Yes.
whether we like it or not, our first response to everything is emotional.
Like that's just automatic.
And it's emotional.
Now being able to recognize that and be aware, self aware of the emotional response andthen be able that takes that that to me is just like exercising in the gym and getting a
(30:11):
stronger squat, like it takes effort and time and patience and, you got to keep exercisingand do all your accessory work.
Like that's the same in this situation, like you have to actively engage in this in orderto get better at it.
I'm also gonna, I wanna throw in here though before I forget, because I will forget if Idon't do it.
The part that I hear people in these kinds of scenarios, and I've done this myself, ispeople bring in concepts of fairness.
(30:37):
Is it fair?
Like, and I think sometimes, and I've done this too, is I recognize it is not fair.
The situation is completely not fair.
It's also irrelevant because it's reality.
And that's a different conversation when it comes to accountability.
And it's a really hard, tough thing to start to unwrap and engage in and accept.
(31:01):
And I struggle with this because I definitely, fairness and equality are also two, likethere's a huge unraveling here of these concepts that can happen.
In a good way, it's just, I sometimes get stuck on the, it's not fair.
And I did that a lot in my 30s.
and I've shifted to it might be in an equitable situation.
(31:25):
I also have no control in this moment of it and I'm going to walk away and let it go.
Or I'm going to use what little bit of influence I have to try to create a small tinychange here.
And that will help me feel because right, it's an emotional thing.
I will feel a little bit better in this moment or
I turn the computer off, I walk away and turn my phone off and go exercise for a minuteand try to like move on.
(31:48):
Yeah, so
Did I cause you to forget?
no, no, no, no, not at all.
I just want to address something while it's fresh.
They're really, fairness has nothing to do with accountability.
That's where everybody goes.
They do.
And I'm going to tell you straight up, that's a crutch.
(32:08):
It's an excuse.
It is an absolute excuse.
this is why Jim was such an amazing mentor and his examples.
So I'm going to talk to you about in later in my career with him, we were planningprojects in Alaska and it was at the downturn of the economy in 2008 and nine.
(32:30):
And we had three restaurants,
already boxed up in containers, getting ready to go on to a barge to ship up to Fairbanks,Alaska to go build.
And I mean, I am driving to the port to witness the containers get loaded.
And he goes,
Stop everything.
(32:52):
Cancel the barge.
I'm like, what?
And he goes, the bank just pulled our financing.
And I go, and my first thing, well, that's not fair.
We've got to sign contract.
What are you talking about?
And he goes, this has nothing to do with fair.
This is reality.
I want him, he stops me in my tracks and he goes, pull the truck over.
(33:13):
I want you to hear me.
We are, only going to cover hard costs, no soft costs.
And so I want you to get your head around this.
He says, I literally just got off and this is how quickly he could take that circle ofcontrol, concern, influence and out of his control and actually focus his energy because
he did flex that muscle.
(33:34):
And he'd say, there's nothing fair about this.
This is reality.
We are going to do everything we can right now to mitigate the damages.
That is what's within our control.
Focus on what's within our control.
I don't wanna hear any more energy spent on what we cannot control.
(33:54):
And it was like, wow, that was a lesson.
You've done this for me several times where you've interrupted my whatever discourse I wastelling myself at the time and you've been like, can you actually control any of this
right now?
And you haven't maybe come out and said it specifically that way, but you've said it inother ways that forced me to pause and think and really, yeah, you're right, fairness
(34:23):
is...
It's just the reality of the situation.
It is what it is.
I really don't have control over this.
And I'm going to move on to other areas I can control and I can influence and I can make adifference in and focus on those things.
And it took like a year, I think of you really saying those kinds of things to me for itto start to stick.
But I think that's the other part is helping others in that, just like Jim did for you,you've done for me and I've started, I've been doing this for others too.
(34:52):
is being patient with others and having these conversations
Well, part of what this is, Tristen and it's part of the emotional intelligence package,and it's hard to put your finger on it directly, but it's about creating a
solution-focused environment.
But sometimes I just want to be mad about something, come on.
(35:15):
I'm teasing.
I know.
I know.
okay to take that to another level and damage your character, your brand.
It's not okay.
there's a part of accountability that I carry in myself.
And I was actually criticized when I left Rad Urban, and I'm not gonna name his namebecause he may listen to this, but.
(35:38):
And I said to him, I said, is there one thing that you could share with me that I have asa blind spot on my departure?
And he says, yes.
He says, you lead by example to the nth degree.
And I go, why is that a bad thing?
He says, you can be 25 miles into a 26 mile marathon.
(36:01):
And I'll ask you.
how it's going and is everything okay?
And with energy and enthusiasm, you're gonna tell me yes, whether it's correct or not.
You are gonna tell me yes and that is your blind spot.
And I will tell you to this day, I still struggle with that.
What was funny is when you first said like what he was gonna say, my first instinct was tosay blind optimism.
(36:30):
But I also know that it's not true all the time.
It's just that's your first instinct and your first response is that going towards thatoptimistic thing, which is one, something I love about you.
It's also sometimes infuriating because you're that's not reality.
But you're also open to having the conversation in the moment and also maybe that's notthe full story and we need to be realistic and not completely optimistic.
(37:00):
But you know that about yourself and I love that.
on my job sites as a senior superintendent, having superintendents and foremans under me,when we would do our team building and I'd pull them into the office and I would talk to
them in my team building and I'd say, listen.
This is gonna, you're gonna take this very harshly.
(37:20):
You're not allowed to have a bad day.
And they'd look at me and they go, well, what do you mean?
And I go, you're allowed to have a bad day.
You're just not allowed to have a bad day while you're on this job site doing your job.
And if you are in a position where you're having a bad day, I would much rather you stepup and say, Hey, I'm having a bad day and take yourself out of this scenario because what
(37:45):
you transmit to your crew and what you transmit and give the example of is what you'regoing to receive that day.
And that bad day is going to cascade into multiple bad days of getting that toxicenvironment back out of your crew.
I would much rather you own it.
Come to me and say, I'm having a bad day.
(38:06):
I'm to go home.
And if I understand what you're telling me to be true and correct, absolutely.
Let your second in command that is following your example have a great day.
it's something that, and you're not going to like this, it's a military discipline.
(38:27):
I'm sure it is.
But also, like, I get it.
Well, it's not even it's not even I don't think it's I'm not even looking at it as agendered thing.
I think it's.
man, where am I going with this?
So now let me, I know kind of where you're headed.
So we had a scenario, not to name names, in one of our meetings just the other day, wheresomeone came forward and shared that they were having a bad day and they had a difficult
(38:52):
time.
That is a completely different understanding of that concept.
In that environment, we would encourage people to step forward.
And I would encourage these superintendents and foremen to come to me and explain to mewhat's going on.
It's not like I don't want to know.
I just don't want them to transmit that into their day and their crew.
(39:13):
But like, we're human.
It's not like we can't always control that.
And so I feel like it's a little bit kind of short sighted in that sometimes there's a lotgoing on in our lives and authentically being able to show up.
I mean, that doesn't mean running around like cussing at everybody, screaming at everybodylike that, that kind of stuff.
(39:34):
Yes, like that's not the right thing to do.
But like some people are suffering from major depression or
you know, postpartum depression or like all sorts of different things to where they mightperpetually be having bad days.
And how do we help them authentically be able to show up and not try to tell them not notthat I'm saying you're saying this, but they could interpret this as I'm not allowed to
(39:57):
show up then.
And I don't think that's necessarily the right thing to do either.
So I would want to reframe that in a different way that helps people understand they cancome forward.
have their bad day, share that with everybody for support possibly if they're comfortableand their psychological safety in the environment, and then continue about what they're
(40:20):
doing in a supportive environment versus if you're having a bad day, remove yourself.
And I don't think that's what you intended, but that's kind of how I first got interpretedon my side.
you're correct, the interpretation of that and how I presented it was very much on point.
The other part of that is, is that this is a what and how action of emotional intelligenceand it has to do with...
(40:46):
understanding self-awareness, awareness of others, and group awareness.
So if you have the ability within your team that you're leading to share with them.
what is going on, they will allow you that day.
And it's not going to affect your leadership at all.
(41:07):
You're correct.
If you just show up and you're
They look at you and go, hey, go home and kick the dog or kick the garbage can.
you're just walking around like rah rah rah being rude and mean and whatever like yeah,that's that's yeah, well and yeah.
intelligence to understand your mindset and how you basically project to others, you'recorrect.
(41:31):
If you come out with empathy and you have a crew that trusts you and you trust them, andyou come with empathy and you share with them what's going on, and they are going to step
up and protect you.
Well, and that's to me, if that scenario is what's happening, that is a sign of goodleadership.
Ultimately, that's one, it's a sign of good leadership.
(41:53):
It's a sign of psychological safety.
It's a sign of a good team dynamic.
And that's kind of what this whole series is about is creating the scenario where you canhave a bad day and still show up and have that conversation.
And some teams have that.
under different leadership and I've seen teams where they absolutely do not have that.
(42:17):
And it's a very different feeling.
And, you know, I've had an incident in recent history that has triggered some of mypersonal PTSD pretty, pretty severely actually, which I wasn't expecting.
And in certain team scenarios and environments, I've been very fine showing up and beingvulnerable at admitting that and saying, Hey, I'm struggling.
So I might look different today.
(42:38):
I might not talk as much today, or I might not whatever.
And then in other team environments, I 100 % have no desire to share any of that.
I don't want to, like, I'm hiding it essentially, which is kind of crappy.
Those to me are signs of different, people, like, the teams that those are in have, areexhibiting different leadership skills and different leadership models
Well, what we're talking about is fostering a positive mindset and transmitting thatpositive mindset into others.
(43:04):
And that is an aspect of accountability.
Yeah, I mean, I think the term that I would put on it is fostering psychological safetytoo, which is something that I think back, honestly, when some of these books were
written, that wasn't something that people often utilized as a term, right?
But I think like modern version is recreating an environment of psychological safety forpeople through leadership.
(43:28):
And I would like if we could rewrite this, that's what I would probably term it.
So on that line of understanding, when you get to that point with your team or your leadsto where you can have this conversation about psychological safety and they're comfortable
with sharing that, your circle of trust has just gone to another level.
(43:51):
Now you have individuals that actually are emotionally engaged and
It's a look and a nod from across the job site and they can tell if you're okay or not.
And they are on it immediately.
Hey, what's going on?
Are you okay?
Yeah, I mean, I know there's different people.
(44:15):
Yeah, yeah.
And that is when you have an exceptionally high performing team that understands a highlevel of emotional intelligence.
And that's what these foundational pieces that we've been working on is about.
And it really is about accountability and accountability of ourselves, accountability ofothers, and being accountable for others.
(44:39):
Yeah, it really is.
And it's, I mean, you.
Yeah.
the first time in 15 years, I took personal time off with my family.
And because I have a level of trust with my team members that I have not had in 15 years,I did not look at a single email or open my computer because...
(45:03):
several of us FYI.
But you only called like two or three of us.
Some answered and some did not.
On purpose.
We made a pact.
We made a pact.
No answering.
was a change for me.
This was a big growth moment.
(45:24):
I know, I knew it was gonna be hard for you.
And if you're going to, and if I'm actually taking my own advice and, and actually sharingthis out for other people to understand, I had better take it to the full level of
understanding.
And that was huge for me.
And I got to tell you, I came back just charged, absolutely charged.
(45:44):
Funny is my husband recently, like I'll take, because I've had periods where I've workedlike 10 days straight through the weekend for whatever reasons recently.
I'm fine with it.
But I took a midweek day off to take a minute.
And I did, checked my phone like four times, my work phone, and my husband was like, whatare you doing?
(46:05):
I was like, well, what if, what if?
And he's like, one, it'll be there tomorrow.
It's a day.
He's like, and two, you've got a bunch of other people that'll be on it.
it's fine.
yeah, but what if they need have a question for me?
And they can ask you tomorrow.
So I struggle not because I don't trust everybody else, because I do inherently trusteverybody that are on the different things that I'm working on.
(46:30):
I think I just get so concerned that I'm going to fail them and not show up when they needme.
And that's a different, thing to work on for me as because it's just something I strugglewith personally.
But I was really proud of you for not answering emails.
(46:51):
So I had one email that was the reason that I called, that somebody put a pushnotification through my PTO message.
And I'm like, it literally at first read, and emails are tough because there's no realityof emotion.
(47:13):
You don't know, the words on the page could be, and I speak about this when we talk aboutprefab too,
You could be speaking about prefab to an audience and you could have the early adapter andthe late adapter asking the exact same question and you don't know if they're asking to
tear you down or asking to build you up.
And so those email came at me and I knew better.
(47:38):
I read it and it just resonated as kind of fear.
I know.
It was fear, and part of that fear was because of a reputation of an individual that sentit.
I think it was also just because you're passionate and you care about the subject, youreally wanted to ensure that you addressed it.
And I recognized when you called me, that was part of what was going on of but I reallyneed to answer.
(48:02):
I need to respond to this.
I need to be attentive to this.
Cause I really care and I'm passionate about this and I want to make sure I do a good job.
that's what I heard out of you without you saying it.
And also my first response is you need to not respond.
and you need to respond when you're back at work.
And you also need to specifically tell them, in the future, I'd like you to respect my PTOout of office notification and not do that again.
(48:27):
So to answer your question, I did hear you.
You did, almost word for word.
And by the way, I did not respond.
Good job.
did not respond until the second day I was back.
And when I responded and I came into the meeting the next day after I responded, Iactually asked him specifically, why did you think it was okay to send a push notification
(48:53):
while I was on PTO?
Mm-hmm.
And what was in the answer that I got was very interesting.
Body language speaks volumes.
He was like, I apologize.
I'm just so excited about where this is going.
I just, couldn't control myself.
I just am so energized about what's going on in this.
And I appreciate people who are excited and also respect people's time off, period.
(49:20):
It's there when you get back.
Like nothing in...
best part?
You actually helped me to understand, to take back my power and control from thisindividual.
Yeah, take your boundary.
I have I have I have on my email, because sometimes I know it did.
(49:42):
I know.
In my email, signature, I have a little note on it that says, I realize I might have sentthis out of normal working hours.
Please don't feel obligated to respond to me outside of your normal working hours.
Let me know.
Respond to me when when you're working, basically, because
I recognize sometimes I'm answering people on Sundays or late in the evenings or 4 a.m.
(50:05):
and I don't want people to ever think that they have to respond to me at that same time,ever.
I think that's something people have created and an unrealistic expectation withtechnology that has been created through email notifications and text messaging that I
don't like and I hold the boundary and I tell others.
(50:27):
it's okay for you to respond later.
And I purposely put that there because I know that I email at weird times and I don't wantpeople to expect that they have to answer me then.
Now, am I guilty of getting an email at nine o'clock at night and having to like respondto it?
Yes, I still do it too, but I'm trying to get better at it.
So do you understand how that simple statement at the bottom of your email createsaccountability for both sides?
(50:52):
It's pretty incredible.
Yeah.
I forget somebody else.
I mean, I wish I remember where I read it.
It was someone else.
Another, I think, thought leader shared it on LinkedIn.
And I read it going, you know, I'm going to do this because I think it's really importantto let others know that this is the expectation in the situation and setting a boundary
(51:17):
for them and myself.
And it helps me hold myself accountable to things as well.
And I've had several people point it out that they appreciate that it's there.
And they're like, so I wasn't stressed about answering you.
I just did it the next day because you automatically set the expectation that it's OK thatI don't respond to you immediately.
(51:37):
And I was like, that's awesome.
Maybe put it on your email, too.
I'd like to share that one of the publications that was left to me by Jim, and I stillhave this, the original copy of his Kicking the Crutches, is Brian Tracy's No Excuses.
Yep.
This is a really amazing publication.
(51:58):
If you can actually listen to it and take away from it and follow what they're saying inthere, this has a note inside of it from Jim that states, if you read this book and follow
the examples given, you will literally double your income.
And I'm here to tell you I've read it three times now.
(52:20):
was gonna say you read it a few times.
And all three times, I have, in all reality, doubled my income.
And it is, there's a lot of things in there.
There's a lot of, you have to discipline and a lot of accountability, takingaccountability for your actions and your daily routines and what you do.
(52:41):
it's a level of accountability that literally kicks the crutches in your life to stand andperform.
I would be, I haven't read it.
I am curious to read it.
And I'm also curious, also just because I, you know, I am somewhat ADHD, my husband hasADHD and time management and being accountable, it can be very complex with people who
(53:10):
have high levels of ADHD.
Just curious about like how,
it relates to it a little bit.
mean, this book was written, I think you said in 2010.
So it's newer publication than QBQ So how can you apply these principles also, you know,universally to people who are differently abled?
(53:30):
NeuroSpicy take this in a different way.
How do you transform these concepts and ideas to making room for all types of individualsto show up in their own unique way?
it's something I think about, and making room and space for that is important to me.
You can still be an accountable individual and have full-blown, really complex ADHD.
(53:52):
And I talk about that one because I have the most experience with it, with people in mylife.
and it's, just an interesting concept and I'm not saying I have any answers.
I'm just saying it's something I think about a lot.
yeah.
The last piece of this before we go, the circle diagram is probably one of the mosteffective.
I forgot about that one, I really like it.
(54:14):
And what's interesting is between the circle of control and the circle of concern is thecircle of influence.
And what's crazy is if you cannot influence or have no control, how much time are yougonna spend within the circle of concern?
(54:35):
Because the last one is no control.
And you're gonna, you're emotional,
aspect is either going to take you to when you're talking about concern is going to takeyou to, well I have to have influence now or it's going to take you to I have no control.
Hmm.
So if you jump from one side of that to the other, it's a really interesting thoughtprocess around educating yourself to understand, I really gonna spend, so I'm concerned,
(55:06):
but am I really gonna spend time to influence this or do I really need to just take theunderstanding that I don't have control?
just, found a good graphic where it's not like separate with a middle.
It's actually like nested circles.
And in this, I like the way this is presented and it says, circle of concern.
If I can't control or influence, can I accept it?
(55:27):
And the response is, yeah, and that's exactly what you just said is, can you accept it andjust move on?
And that's the part where I find some people struggle more than others.
I would say sometimes I get stuck there.
But having this, I like one, I really like this graphic.
I will share this and give obvious, you know, copyright to the person who made it, butit's a good one and I like the way that it's depicted and I think it'd be helpful for
(55:55):
people to see it.
So.
when I lost my job in LA for various reasons, and I'm not going to say that I didn'tcontribute to it in some way.
I had an opportunity approached by an attorney friend of mine to go after them.
And I looked at this and I said to this circle diagram or this diagram that you're talkingabout probably feeds it even better.
(56:21):
Am I going to spend the energy and the time?
And if I do spend the energy and the time, is it really going to equate to moving mycareer and my path forward?
Or do I take this lesson?
take my lumps as bad as it hurts and as much as I think I'm correct and move on.
(56:44):
And I chose to move on and my career has taken off like a supercharged rocket since thattime.
learned that exact same lesson both professionally and personally.
And I recently had to explain this to someone else.
And I can't remember who it was, but they said, and it was a personal issue.
(57:07):
And they were why didn't you just sue the crap out of 'em?
Why didn't you go after 'em?
You totally blah, blah.
at the moment, I really wanted to, to be honest.
And had I had the financial stability in my life at the time, I probably would have.
However, retrospectively, I'm glad I didn't because the time and energy and effort wouldhave been all consuming.
The outcome might not have realistically knowing how justice systems work probablywouldn't have been what I would have wanted it to be.
(57:33):
And I would have achieved probably nothing in the process.
So
It's really, it was hard for them to understand what I was trying to share with thembecause it's hard, because in the moment it's, you want like retribution or whatever
justice or whatever word you want.
a list, retaliation, retribution, you name it, it's on that list.
(57:55):
But looking at this, three circles of influence and thinking through it in thatperspective, I think is really helpful in those kinds of situations.
Now it might take a long time of acceptance in some of those situations.
That doesn't mean that you can't, I have flipped the script in some of this and I'vestarted to influence things now in my life that.
(58:18):
maybe doesn't directly affect that particular situation, but my hope is it will influenceother situations that other people won't have to experience like I did.
So I'm turning that and flipping that into progressively moving forward to help othersinfluence the situation better and differently for others in the future.
And that's how I feel like I've turned the situation around for me And I'm not going to gointo the details of the situation, but I do like I feel better about it now because of
(58:44):
that.
it took me a decade.
It's not an easy thing to learn.
Yeah.
where I am with it.
So it's really, really interesting.
I literally had the example of pulling to the side of the road, hearing Jim's voice in myhead saying, focus on what we have control of.
(59:05):
Mm-hmm.
that was how I was able to quickly make that decision and pivot.
I really, feel like...
what you and I heard that voice so clearly in that moment, even through all of the anger,the rage, the I've been wrong, this isn't fair.
All of that came to the surface and boiled up.
I'm not gonna tell you that I didn't feel all of that.
(59:28):
It was every bit of that and then some was there.
And then on top of all of that, I heard the voice say, what of this do you have controlof?
And also, are you gonna waste your time and energy?
with something that you don't understand what you control out of this, or you're gonna getyour focus on what you can control and move forward in a positive way.
(59:50):
And I opted to move forward in a positive way.
You know, I think it's really cool that I know Jim is no longer with us.
No crying Tristen.
You're gonna make me cry.
I know, no crying.
But I think it's really amazing how he lives through you.
And you're kind of passing these true, like heartfelt knowledge things on to me.
(01:00:15):
And now we're sharing it with the world.
Like I find that kind of an incredible, momentum of learning that is just, I think, uniqueand interesting and kind of amazing to me that I've never met this man.
But I feel like I know him in so many ways because of all these things you've shared withme about him, about things he's helped you understand, about your own actions and how you
(01:00:40):
treat me and others around you.
And it's just the coolest, it's like the ultimate leadership.
Even like he left, he's left a legacy of leadership.
And that's.
is how people speak about you when you're gone.
It's just phenomenal to me.
And he...
I know.
I struggle to say his name without getting welled up with tears.
(01:01:05):
Because he truly created a gift within me that I could, the only way I can repay it is toinstill it in others.
I know.
that's what we've I think part of what we started to do with this, this whole seriestogether is I recognize this when we started talking about a lot of this of like, you've
talked about writing a book.
(01:01:26):
And I know that I knew that that format of sharing might not be the right thing for you.
And I was like, how about we record this and
it's turned into something pretty amazing.
And I just want to acknowledge the hard work that you've put in in that and that sharingforward and it's imperfect, right?
There's so much more learning here.
There's so many more conversations that can happen and we can continue to grow together.
(01:01:48):
And I, it's for, you know, a lot of this stems from an individual I've never even met, butI find to be an incredible person, an incredible human.
And I'm thankful that he shared it with you so that you're sharing it with me and we'resharing it with that.
Like, it's just awesome to me.
So thank you for.
And I appreciate you letting me share because that voice has been inside of me that needsto come out.
(01:02:11):
I know, it's awesome.
everything that I do.
And it is so clear the impact that he's had on my life and the impact that that hascreated with so many others.
And that to me is just the ultimate leadership right there.
So, well, I think we're gonna wrap up today on that.
(01:02:32):
If you followed along the whole series, I love it.
We'd love to hear feedback.
We'd love to have more conversations.
If you have an idea and you wanna come on and talk to both of us or one of us.
let me know.
And yeah, thanks again, Scott, for sharing all these things.
been amazing.
Cannot wait.
Thanks.
Bye for now.
(01:02:58):
Thank you for tuning in to today's episode of The Construction Cafe.
We hope you found our conversation as inspiring as your next big project.
Remember, you can dive deeper into the resources and topics we discuss by connecting withus on LinkedIn and Instagram.
Just search for The Construction Cafe.
Don't miss out on future episodes.
Be sure to follow us on Spotify, Podbean, and Apple Podcasts to keep the conversationgoing.
(01:03:22):
If you're passionate about the construction industry and have a story to share, we'd loveto hear from you.
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Let's keep building together.
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