February 26, 2025 • 59 mins
Just when you thought The Leadership Blend series was over, we’re back with a bonus episode! Tristen Magallanes and Scott Brown welcome construction safety leader and Navy veteran Shawn Love for a conversation on leadership, accountability, and culture in construction. Shawn shares his journey from the military to the jobsite, the challenges of leading safety in an industry resistant to change, and how building trust transforms teams. From emotional intelligence to calling out bad practices (with humor and respect), this episode is packed with real talk, leadership lessons, and a few laughs.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Welcome to the Construction Cafe, where the buzz of the construction industry meets thewarmth of a friendly conversation.
I'm your host, Tristen Magallanes.
Join me at our virtual cafe as we explore the foundations of construction culture, sip oncutting edge concepts, and amplify the unspoken voices in our industry.
So grab a cup of your favorite beverage, pull up a seat, and let's build more than juststructures, let's build connections.
(00:33):
This is the Construction Cafe.
All right, everyone, welcome back to the Construction Cafe.
Some of you have been following along for the Leadership series.
(00:53):
And I know in the last one, Scott and I said it was the last one we were recording.
But that's just not how we roll.
And so we are wrapping up the series with an eighth episode.
Surprise.
And so Scott Brown, welcome back.
And we are joined by another friend, Shawn Love.
(01:15):
Welcome to the show.
Morning.
you guys all know me Tristen you know Scott.
So let's get to know Shawn.
Shawn, tell us a little bit about yourself.
where to begin.
I was born in 1976.
was Sunday.
Yeah, so was Sunday, 805.
was, you know, a great day.
(01:35):
Little bit about myself.
I'm a safety professional in heavy civil construction.
I didn't start out that way, like most folks.
Before that, I've only been in the construction
industry since 2017 really was my first introduction working with Cintas First Aid andSafety where it's more service than anything, but there was also lot of training and
(01:56):
compliance.
Before that, I was active duty Navy for about 22 years.
So that's a pretty proud thing for me.
So I always like to lead back to it.
I'm one of those old timers.
It's like, yeah, the Navy and I did this and this and this.
So I'm pretty proud of what we accomplished.
of, it's definitely something to be proud of.
22 years isn't anything to kind of sneeze at in the military.
(02:20):
You and I have shared that a lot of my family also is military.
My husband's a veteran.
So incredible journey there.
I'm sure you have a of lessons to share or things to tell us not to do.
And then, yeah, let's...
interesting.
Yeah, so 2017 was when my path crossed with Shawn's, which was pretty amazing how thathappened.
(02:48):
yeah, we hit it off.
Because you you meet everybody Scott Brown, like everybody.
You're like everybody's friend.
we can't go somewhere without you knowing people.
So how did you meet Shawn?
wife when we walk through an airport in a strange city and I recognize somebody and haveto say hi.
She's like, really, did you have to say hi?
I'm like, yeah, I had to say hi.
(03:10):
So like Shawn said, he was working at Cintas and it was he came in early one morning at acompany we both worked at.
And I do my team building stuff I was at that time with the crew.
And I don't know we were
probably under 100 at that point.
It was a pretty large group though.
And we were all on the floor doing some stuff.
(03:33):
We were doing some role plays, skit stuff.
And I don't know specifically what we were talking about.
I think it might've been who moved my cheese.
Could've been Tuckman's ladder too though.
But they've got their back to the Mesnane and I see him up there kind of.
listening and watching what's going on.
And then we spoke afterwards.
To make the story story short, we interviewed him and hired him.
(03:56):
And yeah, and it was kind of interesting at the time, we were looking for somebody andthey're like, we got to find someone, we got to find someone.
I said, Hey, I, I just met someone, I think he's our guy.
And they said, Oh yeah, who's that?
I go, it's, you're not going to believe this, but he came from the Navy as a chief
And you are damage control officer?
(04:17):
Shawn, I may be butchering that.
That was the name of our rating.
other militaries call it an MOS, Military Occupational Specialty, but we call them ratingsin the Navy.
It's Damage Control.
and you're overseeing a number of vessels in the Pacific fleet.
So when my last command I was at was overseeing, I was the damage control assistantofficer, I guess.
(04:44):
So I was the damage control assistant of nine different ships.
So I had to go out to nine different ships, talk with their chiefs, and evaluate, inspect,train, do whatever I could to help them be successful as best as possible.
And whatever that would look like.
I wasn't always successful.
(05:05):
We weren't always successful.
But the lessons that came from that was huge.
So that was my last command that I was at.
Then before that, was on board ships and then shore duties.
Yeah, so that was with.
gonna, yeah, that's a tremendous amount of personnel and responsibility.
That just overwhelms me compared to the small circle I'm in in construction, even thelarge circle within construction.
(05:31):
But I can remember, and I still play this through in my mind very clearly, sitting in theinterview with two other individuals.
And one of them asks Shawn, because he was skeptical.
He goes,
So why would, why would we hire somebody that's had this huge responsibility in the Navythat's now running a route for Cintas And, I just, I was pretty blown away that he asked
(05:56):
that, but at the same time, you're, and I may butcher this, your answer was prettyincredible.
You had stated that when you retired, individuals that you respected had said,
take a position in the civilian life to transition from military to civilian and just takeit slow and the opportunity within a certain timeframe will present itself.
(06:21):
And when you shared that and he said, really, so what was the timeframe?
And you said, I'm pretty close to about a week from when they said it was gonna happen.
And I was just like, I got chills.
And...
Shawn, you're now a very successful individual within construction and safety.
(06:41):
And that level of leadership, that level of emotional intelligence, there's not manypeople that possess that, my friend.
And I'm really, I'm blessed to know you and I'm blessed to watch your career and see whereyou're at.
I just, I'm thankful that we're talking today because I think this story needs to beheard.
And I think it's inspiring.
It inspires me.
(07:01):
I just gotta say.
Thank you.
For me, it's hard to measure success, but I appreciate that.
when I got to know Shawn a little bit before today, and Shawn also shared with me sort ofthat transition and that taking a job to just sort of even civilian life.
(07:23):
But what's it like shifting Shawn from a very structured military environment to thecivilian world and learning to lead within, because I got to imagine there's differences,
right?
yeah.
within the military and then leading within civilian world.
I'm not a military, I personally didn't go into the military, but old school constructionwas very much a like you do as I say kind of situation and is very authoritarian and
(07:53):
things have changed a lot.
So can you talk a little bit about the kind of those differences and was that challengingfor you to kind of change any of that?
So it's absolutely challenging.
So when you leave that very structured, is, here's our hierarchy, here's our chain ofcommand.
You start here, we're doing this, then do this.
(08:14):
You give an order, a direction, whatever you want to call it.
And then if it doesn't get done, you turn around and hold that person accountable inwhichever way is the best way.
So the challenge is when
when you get out, when you're used to a certain way of life, which is why, you know, thefolks I talked to said, Hey man, when you get out, dude, find a job that's high speed, low
(08:37):
drag, and just help that transition.
Cause if you go into a job that's, that's very, you know, leadership based and everything,it's going to be more challenging because trust me, I went through it.
So I was like, okay.
So now fast forward to when I met Scott and was hired on there.
One of the challenges and the guys would call me out, which was awesome, but at the sametime, it was frustrating.
(08:59):
They'd say, hey this isn't the military, man.
We don't run it like that.
It's like, okay, fair enough.
I'm still in that very structured.
Hey, this is what needs to get done.
Make it happen, Captain.
And figuring out that they're not used to someone like me.
I'm not used to that.
So there's a lot of of growing pains, we'll call it, to really figure out what that needsto look like.
(09:26):
And then in the end, it was all about pulling people aside individually going, all right,man, check this out.
Here's what I'm really trying to accomplish.
What do you see to make that successful?
How can I work with you to get you in this point here?
Because this is really the goal of where we want to be.
Tell me about your history.
So was a lot of figuring out that connection where in the military, at the time we weren'treally pulling our sailors and Marines aside going, hey, let's have coffee and lunch and
(09:52):
tell me about your day and tell me about yourself, right?
There was some intrusive leadership where we would try to figure that out, but it wasn'tanything like it is today, right?
Where it's looking at the civilian, it's I wanna know the background, I wanna know whereyou're from so that I can approach you correctly.
Because some people don't,
Take well.
It sounds like there's that rapport building, right?
(10:12):
that rapport building, getting to know someone, meeting them where they're at, whichdoesn't necessarily always happen in other environments.
which is a really important piece.
I know we've talked about when it comes to sort of trust building and team building isthat rapport building that we start with is really, really incredibly important and can
take some time.
(10:33):
This is exactly why when I talk about building high performing teams and building leadersand know how to build leaders because Shawn clearly knows how to do that.
The listening to understand and the taking an individual aside and actually listening totheir story and having them focus on listening to where you're coming from.
So Shawn came from, and my son was in the Navy for 22 years, retired.
(10:58):
And he's just now in civilian life.
And it's been about two years working in civilian life.
And he's going through this exact same struggle Shawn.
He calls me all the time.
So it's like a repeat of what I've watched you go through.
It's kind of crazy.
But in the Navy, different than in construction, not necessarily where you're at, you dosee situations where people's lives are in danger.
(11:22):
Similarly, but in the Navy,
If you're not doing what you're told, you are jeopardizing everybody's life.
And so that accountability aspect is a power and authority position.
And it has to be, there's just no getting around that.
But when you come into civilian life, we've got this funny thing within these companiescalled HR.
(11:44):
And you're not gonna get away with that kind of thought process.
the thing that I...
saw when I was suggesting that we hire you and the thing that I understood more thananything else, you had all of the skill sets and extremely high emotional intelligence.
And you had from the Navy, a high level of discipline.
That discipline just had to be learned in a not away from a power and authority aspectinto a different light.
(12:11):
And you pick that up really quickly.
There were frustrations, but
When I say quickly, it's a relative term.
It might be an ongoing process, but the circle of trust, the ability to collaborate andthe taking people aside and having the one-on-one, but more than that, what I saw more
than anything else, you were having fun, You were having fun.
(12:32):
And that's your...
stories and where you came from.
And I remember you telling some, know, people get shocked about you calling them out onsomething and you tell a story and they'd just be standing there with their jaw dropped.
That really happened?
It's like, yeah, that really happened.
Let's talk a little bit about your primary role, Shawn, is safety related in construction.
(12:55):
And that's a challenging space, I would imagine, to lead.
I've touched on it a little bit in helping to run safety programs at construction firms,mostly because I worked for smaller heavy civil contractor at the time.
you wear multiple hats.
you know, walking onto a job site, I was sometimes viewed as like, great, here comes herecomes the popo, coming in to write me up.
(13:19):
And it's really not.
That's not the intention.
I mean, yes, we do do that.
But there's something else to the intent of why we show up as safety leaders.
Tell me more about that on your perspective, because it's not just about writing peopletickets.
No, for me, it's I want people to go home when I when I tell the people that I've workedwith and continue to work with.
(13:42):
I explained that it's the the process of safety and everything.
The impact of that is really what happens if you're not safe.
Right.
What's and to me, it's not about, hey, you know what?
OSHA said so this regulation says so people don't care about like a speeding ticket.
If you're
hauling butt down the road and you just get a speeding ticket and no one, the officer, thejudge, whoever doesn't explain why that's important.
(14:06):
Why is going slower in the rain important?
Why is that one little thing?
Reduce your speed by five miles an hour.
Why is that so important when you're driving in the rain?
If you don't make it important or create that kind of exclamation mark before somethinghappens,
then it's a harder lesson to go by.
(14:26):
So I do my best and again, I'm not always successful and I get some hard lessons of no, Iwent about that the wrong way.
I need to step back and look at what I'm doing and then readdress, right?
It's about making the importance of it.
So if I go out to a job and for instance, if someone's not wearing the right PPE, I'llsay, on, hey, where's your...
(14:48):
Take your pick.
Where's your safety glasses or where's your, hearing protection?
Like where's why, why is your hands all here?
Where's your, what's the impact of that?
If you aren't wearing safety glasses and you're doing a task that exposes your eyes tothat damage, right?
To, to, the bad juju and you lose an eye.
Well, what was that eye worth?
(15:09):
If you lose both eyes, how, how like,
For me, it's the impact of your family, of you, of everything around you.
If you lose your hearing, like if I lose my hearing, how do I hear the people that I love?
How do I listen to laughter?
How am I able to do that, right?
I'm not able to, so then I have to figure different methods out.
(15:33):
If I lose my eyesight, and same, same, if I lose my hand, right?
I go at it with the impact of what happens.
yeah, it's funny.
I'm thinking back to conversations I've had in the industry and folks often, you have apercentage of people though, or a group of people who operate in the, I have to fuck
(15:53):
around to find out situation.
that's just how some people are, right?
I related to like me riding motorcycles.
I used to go stupid fast around turns, stupidly.
And I eventually fucked around and found out and went flying off of it at 95 miles anhour.
it psychologically had a bigger impact on me than more than anything physically as well.
(16:14):
until that moment, I had never considered that that would ever happen to me.
I had never, it was like that happens to other people.
It's never gonna happen to me.
And a lot of people operate from that exact opinion of like, it happens to them.
I'm but I'm always okay.
(16:34):
And until something sometimes happens to people or somebody something happens right nextto them that they physically see and are a part of.
A lot of folks just can't that doesn't sink in.
How do you what's that conversation like as that that has to be challenging to lead peoplein that space for that reason.
(16:56):
it absolutely can be.
And again, I'll go back to the importance of here's why.
I've had on other job sites where I've had, I'll say an old head, guy's been doing it for30, 40 years.
I was like, hey, why aren't we doing A, B, and C?
well, we don't need it.
Well, but we do.
We absolutely do.
(17:17):
The history of this expo, of this,
shows that we've needed this.
Well, it's never happened to me.
So I'm good.
I'm like, no, you're lucky.
You're not good.
You're lucky.
So like we got, we have to understand that, that you're lucky in this and that you haven'thad something, happen yet.
(17:37):
Right.
And hopefully it never does, but you've been lucky.
So give me a favor.
Let's, let's look at this and,
If you feel that that's not the right way, well then let's talk.
Let's look and see what the right way is because we need to be successful.
We need to be safe.
And in a business, business is there to make money.
So we need to check all those blocks at the same time at the best of our ability.
(17:59):
And sometimes it's, hey man, if we take an extra five minutes for this, that's going tosave 50 hours down the road.
And the extra time or the extra whatever now, then that's going to save us the heartache,the whatever pains and heartburn down the road, whatever that looks like.
(18:19):
and sometimes it's just a straight up conversation to depend again, depending on theperson, right?
Cause you can't, I have to remind myself this all the time.
I cannot always go with the issue or the conversation, the same with every single person.
I'm not going to be successful.
So I have to, I have to remind myself that, but there are other folks that you just pullthem aside and go, Hey dude, we can't do that.
(18:43):
Pull your head out of your ass and understand that this is what has to happen.
And if it doesn't happen, then this has to stop and we have to come back, regroup and thenstart again.
I don't want to have to do that.
You don't want to have to do that.
So if we could just, just take a few minutes and then, let's converse about what thisneeds to look like.
So with it, we're good moving forward.
(19:04):
Right.
Shawn, it's interesting that you're in this, the position that you're in is probably oneof the most difficult leadership positions there is because when you're calling people
out, they're gonna take it either one of two ways.
They're gonna, like you said, they're either gonna listen and correct or they're gonnapush back and.
(19:28):
and murmur and be pissy about it.
And there's a percentage that you had shared.
Yes, that's true too.
I was on a very large civil project in LA for a very large GC and we were a subcontractor.
And we were required to be in this safety meeting every Monday morning.
(19:50):
So first thing before we go out to the job site on Monday mornings, we
be in this room with, I don't know, it was in this big hall, there was two, 300 people inthere.
And the safety guys, the safety team would put pictures and video up on the screen ofindividuals on this 11 and a half mile job site, which is huge.
(20:11):
And have them stand up and berate them, just beat them down for what they caught themdoing.
At some point, like the second or third week in, I grabbed my crew and we got up andwalked out.
And of course the PX and the safety guys and everybody came to where we were working thatday and said, Hey, you're required to be here.
(20:31):
And I said, no, this is, this is complete bullshit.
You are creating a police state.
People are looking over their shoulder for you to show up with the camera.
rather than understanding what safety really is.
And so I pushed back pretty hard and they got really, they threatened to throw us off thejob and fine us and all this.
(20:53):
And then the PX says, so I'm hearing you, you're not gonna back down from this, what wouldyou do differently?
And I said, I know for a fact you're a huge company and you have pictures and video fromso many other job sites that you could use examples.
that nobody personally is gonna get called out that you could create safety moments.
(21:15):
So he looks at me and very candidly says, all right, wise ass, show me what you think youcould do.
Because I said, and make something fun out of it to where the guys actually buy in.
And so we had a week, I grabbed some of the select guys on our crew that were willingbecause some of them were like, hell no, I'm not getting up in front of 300 people.
And so we talked about trench safety.
(21:36):
And we had one guy lay on the floor, which everyone was laughing at to begin with.
We had another guy standing up on the edge and I walk up and say, hey, you shouldn't bedown there.
You don't have any shoring or any protection.
And he goes, no, no, I'll just be a minute.
I'll be a minute.
And then the guy up on top says, hey, aren't you married with kids?
(21:57):
And he goes, yeah, why are you asking?
He says, I'm single.
Do you have any pictures of him?
And he goes,
Well, what do you mean?
said, you're not going to make it long and they're going to need somebody.
And everybody laughed.
And all of a sudden we went from police state to, hey, this is serious.
This is something that we need to understand.
And so when we went further on to talk about trench safety and the value that it createsand how quickly something can happen, we got done.
(22:28):
They applauded 300 people.
applauded the safety meeting for crying out loud.
And when we walked out, the PX of the project, he pulls me aside and he said, that waspretty epic.
I've never seen that.
And I said, well, you have to take a approach to safety to where you lead people to buyin, even if they're gonna be that percentage that are gonna hide it, like you're saying,
(22:55):
there's still gonna be that.
But if you don't look at it from a perspective of educating them in a positive way, andyou're just like you said, Shawn, writing the ticket.
I mean, when I get the speeding ticket, whether I show up or not, I still wad it up,pissed off and throw it on the floor.
But at the same time, if you can create an environment where you show up as your authenticself, and you lead them to an understanding that they didn't originally have,
(23:22):
that buy-in of the minority don't have a chance against the majority.
The majority will actually take it upon themselves to call these situations out whenyou're not there.
And for me, that's a level of safety leadership that I don't think we see a lot of in theconstruction industry, and it's sad.
(23:43):
we do, I think it's in the last decade that's grown.
I would say I've seen that shifting in a very positive way, where leading safety has verymuch become different.
And I like the changes I've seen.
it's very similar to what I think police have to go through in trying to do their jobs ofholding people accountable.
(24:05):
Like we have OSHA.
Also OSHA exists for a reason.
Their rules exist for a reason.
It kind of makes me laugh.
People like laugh about like warning labels on things of like, do not ingest your TidePod.
I'm the reason that exists is because some dumb ass ingested it one day or.
at least a couple people probably did.
(24:25):
And it's obviously an issue that enough people thought about it or did it that they haveto now put a warning label behind it.
those rules exist because enough people were dumbasses and did something to prove that weneed that rule in place.
And so it makes it kind of makes me think, Shawn, and maybe you can talk to this becauseyou're a current safety professional.
(24:49):
Yeah.
It kind of makes me think of all of these Instagram videos you see in reels and TikToks ofjust these horrific safety incidents.
Well, people record them and share them.
I mean, yeah, they're out there for quote unquote entertainment, but they're real.
That are real.
(25:09):
Yeah.
are you, can you, are you leveraging that stuff?
Like to help people see, like this shit really happens, guys.
yeah, so when it pops up on LinkedIn, anything that is pertinent is specifically to whatwe're doing, because I always want to throw, hey, look at this, look at this.
We got to maintain this.
But if it doesn't directly reflect on what we're doing, it's not going to have the valueand weight that it really should.
(25:35):
So trench deaths, trench collapses, anything that has to do with what we're doing.
I'll send out and say, hey, heads up, like, check this out.
this is real, folks.
It might not be happening to us.
We may be mitigating a lot of this, but it's still happening throughout this state.
It's happening in other states.
So just because it's not happening to us doesn't mean it's not happening at all.
(25:56):
So we've got to be mindful.
We have to be able to look at that.
Here's some examples of that.
And then when we do safety training every year where we
We kind of shut down for about a week and we go formally train and have differentinstructors come in and talk about confined space and a bunch of other topics.
(26:18):
But that's really my opportunity personally to really face to face with our crews and say,this is important.
Here's why it's not just because of this, but we have to be looking at this and we showvideos and, and statistics.
The statistics really don't hold a lot of weight.
for some of them, but the statistics still tell the story, right?
(26:39):
Numbers don't lie.
So it can be a challenge.
And we have gotten in the industry definitely better in the eight years when I startedback in 17, just looking at it and seeing the shifts and the changes, right?
Because regulations are written in blood, policies are written in blood because somethinghappened to create this
(27:03):
policy, whatever that policy is.
And for your case in point, Tristen, don't eat Tide Pods because people were eating TidePods.
Back, I want to say it was the 80s.
I don't know if y'all remember this.
McDonald's was sued because of hot coffee, if I remember right.
(27:24):
And I could be wrong.
So now on their lids and on the
I think it's on the cup too.
think my son let it says caution.
Contents are hot.
Like if you're getting, you're buying hot coffee and yeah, like, this is coffee.
It's going to be ice cold.
No, it's not.
It's hot coffee.
(27:45):
Like, but to your point, that's
had to put that on the package.
Yeah
Yeah, so
The fact that it had to be identified is the part that's most interesting, but it'scorrect.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, there's two pieces to this.
There's the dumbassery, which we all recognize exists in the planet.
(28:06):
I mean, I've done dumb.
Like my husband literally last week was in the garage doing something and he droppedsomething heavy and he's like, yeah, good thing I my safety crocs on.
And I just had to start laughing.
Right.
It was a joke.
He had his crocs on and probably shouldn't have had them on.
And so it kind of probably hurt us.
Yeah, sport mode, sport mode safety crocs.
(28:29):
Mine at least have linings, so we're not going to get stuff in them.
anyway, but so you have the dumbassery but then you also have legitimate like, legal riskmitigation intention behind things too.
So there's, there's the the piece of like, I want to make sure people are safe.
I want to, you know, do these things because other people haven't.
And then there's the I also don't want to like have my company go down in flames becausesomebody sued me.
(28:54):
and I have to offload risk.
So my brain and safety, both of those things are simultaneously true in most situations.
part of the reason behind the label on the cup for McDonald's was more risk mitigationprobably than anything, because I really don't think at the end of the day they gave a
shit if people accidentally drank hot coffee because they were too stupid to realize itwas hot.
(29:15):
Like, come on, sorry.
Yeah.
I got you.
me because I'm like, just like that's like giving me a Tide pod.
Like really, what are we doing here?
So a lot of it is more about like our legal system and mitigating risk as well.
So it is both.
And as a safety leader or any kind of leader in construction, I think you have to like putboth hats on, which is really hard, I think.
(29:38):
And you do it.
It's that can that can definitely be a challenge when, cause as a safety professional,it's not just I'm making sure that our employees are safe and go home safe.
But I also have to look at risk mitigation for the company and exposures for the companythat either aren't identified or maybe they are identified.
And we really need to kind of wrap our brains around that.
(30:00):
Does that need a policy?
Does it not need a policy?
Does that just need a training element in order to make the awareness there and
good follow through and good enforcement and good safety culture, right?
Cause that's all going to come in with that.
And then looking at behavioral based safety, right?
Cause that's really, in my opinion, what safety is behavior based safety, right?
If you create the behavior for safety, then eventually that comes around full circle andyou have a good safety culture.
(30:28):
And then that safety culture gets stronger and stronger and stronger, right?
So that, that
lining or the armor of safety gets thicker and thicker and thicker.
And to me that ties into the very foundation of all of what we've talked about throughthis series of leadership, which is trust, building the trust and rapport with one
another.
So I remember a lot of, I worked in heavy civil for a while and the crews I watched weremostly composite crews.
(30:56):
they continued to work together over a consistent long period of time.
the right hand knew what the left hand was doing without even talking.
Like they could look at each other and they knew how like they knew each other's looks.
It's it's and I think there's a lot to that that is helpful if if you can do that forfolks in the industry because allowing people to spend enough time together to build that
(31:17):
trust I think is really important both for them and as a leader.
Because if I only see you every once in a while, because you show up on my job site hereand there because you're being moved around, I've got to imagine that's really hard to
build trust with somebody when they're being punted all over the place.
You, I want to interject a little bit here and go back just for a moment.
(31:38):
I remember Shawn and we started you and I at the same company in the manufacturing settingand the difference from going from the manufacturing safety aspect to construction in the
field.
And now for you construction in the field to Tristen's point with multiple sites.
that that had to have been a tremendous challenge.
(32:02):
But he already had the experience in the military with all the different ships he served.
Like, I'm making an assumption, Shawn, about your experience, but I feel like you broughtthat knowledge with you from your military service.
Yeah, and that made, at least for me, that made it a lot easier to kind of transition fromhaving the construction manufacturing to, okay, now we're going straight to the job site
(32:25):
and managing one or two job sites.
And then, but it's not just underground, it's underground, it's vertical, it's all thesubcontractors that we have on the job site, managing all of them in the safety aspect and
leading them in the safety aspect.
And then,
taking that and putting that to multiple job sites.
So the challenge with the multiple job sites now is getting to them and making sure thatwhen I go out, I'm talking with everyone as much as I can.
(32:57):
go out, shake everyone's hand, at least look up and go, hey, what's up, man?
And give them that wave to, hey, I'm here.
Hey, how you doing?
And sometimes it can be overwhelming when you've got 10, 15 job sites
And let's say that one job site is
I don't want say more hazardous, but there's definitely more exposure and there's more,more eyes on that you need to be because of so many moving parts.
(33:19):
plus the administrative side that you have to make sure is maintained.
So getting through all those initially was, was a huge challenge, right?
Just figuring out, okay, what do need to do?
How do I get effective with this?
How can I be successful with managing my time, managing my tasks?
(33:40):
and getting the feedback, even if that's pushback to me, feedback is positive feedbackbecause I'm getting something in return.
Even if that's, dude, you got your head up your ass, Shawn.
That's not how that works.
Okay.
Tell me how it works.
Educate me because if I'm not educated, then I'm making an assumption and I'm shootingfrom the hip and shooting from the hips.
(34:00):
Not good.
So that's, that was one of the challenges and it can, yeah, it can.
have to find yourself, you have to find yourself and even on a single job site withmultiple different tradesmen in, like you said, underground, above ground.
You have to build advocates or leaders to be present when you're not present, is thatcorrect?
(34:24):
that level of leadership in sharing your knowledge and your understanding and inspiringthese people to look at things different and finding those individuals that have what we
call a high level of emotional intelligence, which by the way, I believe you possess avery high level of emotional intelligence, but having and building within them these
foundational pieces to lead from a safety perspective.
(34:48):
and support that gives you the ability to shift to, like you said, to job sites that maybe more hazardous to where you may not have that representation.
And that trust factor at some point, Shawn, I know that I have experiences too.
It's the why factor.
They want to show that they're succeeding and they're successful.
(35:10):
There is a need to
know that at any moment you can show up and that they're doing the right thing withouthaving to be asked or told.
And that's that level of leadership that we really strive for, most especially in theconstruction industry, is building those advocates, those leaders, tradespeople that
(35:32):
understand to take a step forward even then.
as we're building these leaders that they are taking away from that, the ability in
following your example, to build other people into that leadership role.
And I got to tell you, for me, that's where it really starts for me with the people,because it's about the relationships and it's about sharing.
(35:53):
I mean, we've been through all these things.
It's about sharing those insights and those understandings to get them to another level.
And I've seen you do that.
I've watched that.
I know that I've done it and I watched Tristen do it too.
It's really a level of leadership that
It makes it fun.
I listening to you both speak, specifically around safety, I feel as though growing thosefolks into safety leaders specifically on job sites.
(36:26):
I think a big piece of it also is empowering them with the knowledge that if they act,they stop work.
insert whatever thing you want to do, action you want to
knowing that you're going to support them.
And I, I'm saying this because I was as I was listening to you speak, both of you, I wasreflecting on my early days, when I was in my early 20s in San Francisco on a job site,
(36:52):
pretty large job site.
It was kind of the precursor infrastructure to what is now like Mission Bay and the GiantStadium area.
And I remember an inspector showed up.
one of the big name inspectors, and went to walk on the job site.
And I was like the baby project engineer, this little tiny young 20 something female inthe middle of like this.
(37:16):
And I looked at him, I'm like, where's your PPE?
And he's like, oh, I don't have it with me today.
I was like, well, you're required to have proper shoes, proper hard hat, safety glasses atminimum.
I need you to have those.
we don't have any extras.
And he's like, well, I'm just going to be 30 minutes.
I was like, yeah, I can't let you on the job site.
(37:38):
And this is 20 something me talking to like the head inspector dude of San Francisco,entire region.
And one of the guys next to me is like, are you crazy?
I was like, no, like he has to, should, of all people should be the example to others.
And I'm just, no, You need to leave or go get your PPE.
(37:59):
And my boss 100 % backed my play.
And I knew that he would in that moment.
He didn't back a lot of other shit for me, but he backed that.
And...
I had confidence that he would because I was doing the right thing.
It was an example to everyone else on that job site that we valued safety, we valuedthose, and we were gonna uphold those values regardless of your rank or position in this
(38:25):
entire world.
And I think that's important that we hold everyone accountable to those same things,regardless of who they are.
I don't know.
I don't know if you guys have any stories about things like that, but it just really mademe reflect back on like upholding those values and supporting people when they do it on
job sites because it's important to support them.
(38:46):
And maybe they make the wrong call in a moment, but still support them, I think is really,really important as a leader.
I think it absolutely is.
Because if we're doing our due diligence, if we're out leading by example, I go out andI'm doing something that I'm showing, hey, this is what we should be doing.
Here's why.
And then that starts to get picked up and starts to grow and grow and grow.
(39:09):
And if someone were to, let's say, walk up to a subcontractor or an inspector, because I'msure we have millions of stories about
A, B, and C walking on a job without the right stuff.
And if they...
flip flops through the job site in the morning in shorts.
my word.
it.
But if we don't support them, and when they're doing that and saying, hey, I need you tohave PPE or hey, you need to go check in with the mobile trailer to go get a quick
(39:40):
orientation done or hey, I need you to come here.
Hey, there's a process that I need you to follow.
If you can do me a favor, talk with this person here and get that done.
And if they're getting told to pack sand and then they...
Mm-hmm.
the leadership know and the leadership goes, I don't know, we don't control them, thenthat completely takes, and what you're talking about is empowerment, right?
(40:01):
That completely takes that empowerment out.
That deletes everything that you're trying to do, right?
So the supporting aspect of it, the backup is huge.
I'm gonna say it's fundamental to the success, right?
And that's safety doesn't matter, accounting, whatever the job is.
If you don't have the support of your leadership,
(40:22):
You are going to struggle.
You're at least I know I'm going to struggle.
I'm not going to be as effective or, or, efficient as I can be.
eventually I'm going to burn out and say, you know what?
just, can't, I don't have the support.
don't have the right leadership behind me.
And I, I got to look for something else or I got to do something else, or maybe I need tostep back and say, Hey, can we sit down and talk for a minute?
(40:45):
Hey, I feel like I'm not getting supported.
Thank you.
at least communicating that openly so that maybe they're not aware.
Maybe we get into these motions and a rut, for lack of a better term, and maybe that's notnoticed.
Maybe it's just firing on all cylinders and going, hold on.
(41:08):
I wasn't even aware of that, man.
I'm sorry.
Let me step back here.
Let's look at this.
So that can be huge.
I think that kind of, that kind of fits a little bit into, know Shawn, you and I talkedearlier this week.
It's a little bit of when you're, when you're creating new teams, we talked aboutTuckman's Ladder and about that forming and storming and the ability to have constructive
(41:32):
conflict within that in order to work through that storm to get back to a better phase ofyour, for your team.
And part of that is having the ability to speak up.
and have conflict and not move away from the conflict but move through the conflicttogether.
And at the end of the day, me giving up something and you giving up something and usagreeing and compromising isn't necessarily the right thing either.
(42:03):
We've talked about that in one of the episodes and it's hard, it's hard work.
So
when we start talking about Tuckman's Ladder and the storming part of it, right?
There's a lot of conflict resolution that has to happen throughout the whole process.
And you might not hit all of them.
You might go straight from storming to performing, right?
So you might jump a step because it just clicks and it was just that accelerated.
(42:28):
But to have that conflict resolution and the constructive conflict,
Right.
Cause there's constructive conflict, deconstructive conflict, Constructive conflict beingyou, you disagree with me.
We disagree.
Let's find out why we disagree.
Okay.
Then we get into understanding that.
And then that's that constructive conflict, right?
(42:48):
That's a conflict resolution of moving forward.
And it's not necessarily the compromise.
It's the understanding, right.
To what Scott was saying, listening to understand, right.
That level three listening where it's.
I need to hear what you're saying.
I need to be able to digest what you're saying so that I can understand it.
If I'm just listening to you, just so I can respond and throw something back at you,that's not as effective, right?
(43:13):
In fact, that's usually kind of productive.
So there can be a lot of different moving parts to it.
And so long as you understand those moving parts and what that really means, I thinkthat's pretty key.
So there was a point Tristen, when we were, don't know if it was Tuckman's ladder,actually I think it was emotional intelligence, where we were talking about the core
competencies, the self-awareness, self-management, social awareness, and relationshipmanagement.
(43:37):
And then you have the 12 crucial competencies under it.
But what Shawn brought forward and what you brought forward Tristen, where you know thatthere are individuals that in,
in the hierarchy of leadership that have your back.
That when you speak out, they're going to back your play.
And I think that's a piece of emotional intelligence.
And I don't know if it's a core competency or one of the 12, we could have as a 13th thatyou had brought forward is advocacy awareness.
(44:06):
Understanding that you have an awareness of the trust factor, the, the
advocacy awareness factor, so to speak, and you brought this forward in one of ourepisodes, that you don't have to even hesitate because you know that you're in the right
and they're going to back your play and you have that and possess that awareness.
(44:27):
And I think that is a, goes to that circle of trust and it's a different level of thattrust level.
It's not just, Hey, I trust you because we're standing in front of each other and we're inthis meeting together.
It's Hey,
I know enough about you and how you operate that you, within the ground rules ofengagement, you always operate this way and whatever it is that comes up, I've got you.
(44:52):
Well, and I'll add, it's not necessarily even about because I made the right call or theright decision, right?
Like I'm going to make, we all are going to make bad decisions, uninformed decisions,decisions.
Like it's going to happen.
And I think the testament of a good leader is having room for that.
(45:16):
Giving room for that to happen and
still, I have your back.
And we're going to learn from this and we're going to grow together,
one of the things that comes out of the foundational pieces that I personally feel areimportant in getting to emotional intelligence is the levels of listening, Tuckman's
(45:36):
ladder, change management, looking at things different, time management, but all of thatleads up to when like Shawn in the leadership position and when you're building other
leaders is recognizing
coachability within people, recognizing, hey, they may make mistakes.
Like we said, they may not do everything correct the first time.
(45:57):
But when you correct them, that coachability aspect is there and you know that it's alock, it's locked in.
And it's recognizing that, that skill set or that development in people.
Is that something that you have come to recognize when you're
working with individuals that you see this right away.
I know that I've developed that skill.
(46:19):
I feel like Shawn definitely probably has.
I know he does too.
I have my moments.
I'm not infallible for sure.
I'd like to say, I recognize everything.
not, but no, I don't.
I think that that is a huge skill set for leadership, right?
And it's not just the lead coach mentor aspect of her, right?
(46:40):
You're leading, you're coaching, you're mentoring in the best way possible
for the success of that person and the team and overall company though, just everythingacross the board, right?
Cause it's one team, one goal.
that's, you, you, there's individuals in teams.
So you have to be able to identify the individual.
You have to have that acknowledgement of individuality so that you can bring that onto theteam and have it be successful across the board.
(47:10):
I know for me, sometimes I struggle with the individuality of it.
Like, hey, we're one cog in the machine.
It's like, well, hold on, step back.
Like if we take this cog out, the machine doesn't run.
So the individuality for me and how I look at it absolutely has to be recognized in orderto be successful with the team.
But you also have to be able to, for me, I have to be able to identify others and kind oftheir emotional state.
(47:37):
Like if,
They operate a certain way if their MO is day in, day out.
And then one day it's not so much there.
You're like, huh, hey man.
So going out on job sites, talking with people and interacting with that trust, right?
It's huge to be able to go, hey, you got a minute?
Hey, let me talk to real quick.
(47:58):
Hey dude, everything good?
Cause you've been kicking ass this whole time and you seem a little under the weather.
I just want to check in on you, see, make sure you're good, dude.
Thank
make sure you're rocking.
Like, you know what, I've had this going on, I've got this going on, okay.
And then just listen, right?
And be able to identify that.
(48:18):
Scott and I have had that experience in the past when I first started working over there.
miss those, I miss those when you pull aside moments and I was included in that becausethe value stream that comes out of that is, yeah, I've actually witnessed that, Shawn, and
when you mentioned it, I just got chills.
That was, some of the best moments in leadership and sharing is just getting, and I callit, when you recognize that, I call it,
(48:47):
Hey, just getting down in the mud with them.
Just get down there in the mud with them and find out what's going on.
Yeah.
Cause it's you, you have to take yourself from this bird's eye view and get finite.
You have to bring yourself to the ground.
We're like, all right, what's going on now?
I haven't always been successful.
I'm gonna tell you what I've been guilty of walking on the job site over something andgoing, what, who the hell did this?
(49:09):
What the?
And then have the person who did it said, Hey man, that was me.
You ain't, you ain't gotta like call me out in front of everyone and cuss and shit.
And I was like, damn, you know what?
at least they called you out on it, right?
they did.
And I immediately apologize like, damn, dude, you're right.
I'm so sorry.
And I looked at once that I shouldn't have done that.
That was totally that's my fault.
My bad.
(49:30):
I love I'm the step back and I'm gonna come readdress because that that's not how thatshould be.
So I said, I'm not available.
That's sharing your authentic self though.
That's sharing your authentic self and that vulnerability to admit that you had made anerror, that actually goes a long ways in building trust.
(49:51):
I'm gonna tell you what, that is one of the pieces.
If you have the ability to self-awareness of stepping back and going, man, I just steppedin it big time.
I apologize, dude.
That goes a long ways.
Another piece that came to mind while you were sharing, Shawn, was the emotionalintelligence level to recognize when you are not the right leader for someone and taking
(50:15):
yourself out of that situation or recommending that they move on to a different situation,a different role, a different responsibility.
I think some leaders really struggle with acknowledging
that because there's this attachment of like, well, I'm not enough then, or I'm not thispersona of I am the leader, therefore I must fill all roles and all shoes for all people.
(50:38):
That's not true, because I think we all have individual styles and some of them don't fitwith other people.
I fully acknowledge that.
There are some people, number one, I'm not the right leader for their needs.
Number two, I really don't want to lead them because
insert a million different reasons why depending on the you know the situation Because Iknow in that moment that we're not going to create success for them I think a challenging
(51:04):
Thing in our industry that I've seen is there's this assumption
sometimes that just because you have a leadership role that you could do that foreverybody and that's not that's relatively not true in my from what I've seen.
And you have to be able to identify that.
then for me, the challenge is, damn, I'm not the right leader.
(51:25):
I'm not the right person to make this team, this take your pick successful and being ableto own that.
Because I've had to do that in the past.
And that is not a comfortable conversation for me at all.
A leader, I lead coach mentor as best as possible.
And it's hard for me to say, you know what?
(51:49):
I don't have what it takes.
I don't have either the right skillset, the right experience, the right take your pickwith this team, this insert to make it successful.
So I think we need to look at it again and go, Hey, this needs to go to here or to someoneelse because I don't have the right.
(52:10):
still set for this.
don't have the right abilities.
I don't have the right whatever.
And that, like to your point is, is a challenge because I don't want to say that I'mwrong.
I don't want to say I suck.
I don't want to say that, that I'm not the greatest in the world, right?
That's, that's hard because I'm, telling myself that and I have to look in the mirror andgo, Hey, you're not the right guy for this.
(52:30):
You're just, you just, you've done what you can and
this, this for.
best part about this is like, we all have this internal story, right?
That we're gonna tell ourselves, it's like, well, I'm not good enough, or I'm not theperson, I'm not that guy, or I'm not that woman.
But at the end of the day, the fact that you're even doing it proves that you absolutelyare because you're recognizing it needs something else.
(52:52):
So in that moment, you are actually, in my opinion, the highest example of leadership inthat moment, because you are recognizing that it needs something different.
Yeah.
I did this on a, we were working on a project and we had a team that was working on thisand Tristen is in R &D, director of R &D and for a day job.
(53:13):
And it was a project that I was involved in.
I was one of the inventors of this from the very beginning.
And we got to a point where I was so passionate and so wrapped up and so
love about you, Mr.
Scott Brown.
But the fact was, I did not allow room for failure with that perception and what I wasprojecting.
(53:38):
I literally pulled myself out.
I pulled myself out of the team, but I did recommend a replacement.
Not to say that they still didn't inform me on where they were going or what they weredoing for feedback, but I wasn't engaged in that because if I had stayed there to that
point, I would have...
it would have never created the success that it created and recognizing that in myselfthat I was not the right person.
(54:02):
Shawn, that was hard.
man, I'm here to tell you that was like, talk about the passion that I had for this thingnot failing and to recognize and tell Tristen, I can't be part of this.
I have to back out, but I believe this individual would be a good fit.
And how did that go when I did that?
Well, you didn't squirrel as much, I'll tell you that.
(54:23):
no, that that that particular team squirrels like a mofo.
And they always will.
it's something I love about it.
And I also get frustrated by it because, you know, I like let's get things done.
But also, I appreciate that we can take 10 minutes at the start of any meeting and justsquirrel the heck out of everything.
Get the squirrels out and then move on.
(54:43):
At least in the moment, because I squirrel to like my.
squirrel brain.
If you guys only heard all of the inner squirrels that happen every day, my husband somedays is like, how do you how do you ever go to sleep?
I truly don't know.
My brain never stops.
We're getting close to time here.
So any final thoughts in general on leadership at all from other view?
(55:09):
Well, for me personally, this has been great, Shawn.
I'm really thankful you joined with Tristen and I.
This was good.
This needs to happen again, honestly.
The conversation and hearing, and I guess I didn't really fully have a great awareness ofthe level of leadership that's required from a safety manager, safety leaders perspective.
(55:32):
That is incredibly impressive to know the nuances and the
the different pieces of that that have to be there.
And I really appreciate you sharing that.
I'd like to hear more.
It's pretty cool.
Yeah, amazing.
Any final leadership thoughts from you?
(55:53):
I don't know that.
I'm not the best leader in the world.
I'm I'm effective.
I like to think.
But I know that that looking at what I've achieved, what my folks that I've worked withhave achieved and watching them grow for me is huge.
As a as a leader, I think that the key points are.
Emotionally intelligent, allowing that failure, right?
(56:15):
Being able to recognize that and being able to, if need be, step back, take yourself outof that picture, readdress and then come back, right?
Cause that's growth.
That's where we get into the leading and the coaching and the mentoring.
Right.
For me, those three letters are huge.
I learned that in the Navy lead coach mentor and that's stuck with me.
(56:38):
And I think for a lot of folks that'll stick with them.
for forever.
And one last thing, Tristen, before we go.
Yes.
Shawn the one thing that came forward that I tend to lose sight of is the personalinteraction and personal relationships and the ability to just get down in the mud with
them to understand and the value that that creates.
(56:58):
And my friend, you're one of the best at that.
And I got to say that is the measuring stick of true leadership and the ability to connectwith people.
And because let's face it, the leadership is about people and that's
That's where the, that's, we could all learn from that.
And with humility, I do understand that it's not tooting your own horn.
(57:20):
It's about seeing the success of others is creating that pathway.
And I appreciate you sharing that, man.
That was great.
I appreciate you guys having me on and reaching out.
It's been great.
to thank both of you for spending your Sunday morning with me.
This will be our last episode on the Leadership Series.
(57:41):
It does have to come to an end.
But just for folks' awareness, kicking up the week after this will be a whole week forWomen in Construction Week where
We are interviewing anywhere from 10 to 15 amazing women in this industry from all sortsof professions, backgrounds, and two to three episodes a day being released.
(58:05):
So look out, world.
We're hitting you hard.
I have a
more to come as always and If people have anything they want to talk about or think isimportant hit me up and thanks for joining us today, everybody
Thank you, Kirsten.
Thanks, Shawn.
Thank you for tuning in to today's episode of The Construction Cafe.
(58:28):
We hope you found our conversation as inspiring as your next big project.
Remember, you can dive deeper into the resources and topics we discuss by connecting withus on LinkedIn and Instagram.
Just search for The Construction Cafe.
Don't miss out on future episodes.
Be sure to follow us on Spotify, Podbean, and Apple Podcasts to keep the conversationgoing.
(58:48):
If you're passionate about the construction industry and have a story to share, we'd loveto hear from you.
Visit our website at the constructioncafe.com and drop us a note.
Let's keep building together.
Welcome to the Construction Cafe, where the buzz of the construction industry meets thewarmth of a friendly conversation.
I'm your host, Tristen Magallanes.
Join me at our virtual cafe as we explore the foundations of construction culture, sip oncutting edge concepts, and amplify the unspoken voices in our industry.
So grab a cup of your favorite beverage, pull up a seat, and let's build more than juststructures, let's build connections.
(00:33):
This is the Construction Cafe.
All right, everyone, welcome back to the Construction Cafe.
Some of you have been following along for the Leadership series.
(00:53):
And I know in the last one, Scott and I said it was the last one we were recording.
But that's just not how we roll.
And so we are wrapping up the series with an eighth episode.
Surprise.
And so Scott Brown, welcome back.
And we are joined by another friend, Shawn Love.
(01:15):
Welcome to the show.
Morning.
you guys all know me Tristen you know Scott.
So let's get to know Shawn.
Shawn, tell us a little bit about yourself.
where to begin.
I was born in 1976.
was Sunday.
Yeah, so was Sunday, 805.
was, you know, a great day.
(01:35):
Little bit about myself.
I'm a safety professional in heavy civil construction.
I didn't start out that way, like most folks.
Before that, I've only been in the construction
industry since 2017 really was my first introduction working with Cintas First Aid andSafety where it's more service than anything, but there was also lot of training and
(01:56):
compliance.
Before that, I was active duty Navy for about 22 years.
So that's a pretty proud thing for me.
So I always like to lead back to it.
I'm one of those old timers.
It's like, yeah, the Navy and I did this and this and this.
So I'm pretty proud of what we accomplished.
of, it's definitely something to be proud of.
22 years isn't anything to kind of sneeze at in the military.
(02:20):
You and I have shared that a lot of my family also is military.
My husband's a veteran.
So incredible journey there.
I'm sure you have a of lessons to share or things to tell us not to do.
And then, yeah, let's...
interesting.
Yeah, so 2017 was when my path crossed with Shawn's, which was pretty amazing how thathappened.
(02:48):
yeah, we hit it off.
Because you you meet everybody Scott Brown, like everybody.
You're like everybody's friend.
we can't go somewhere without you knowing people.
So how did you meet Shawn?
wife when we walk through an airport in a strange city and I recognize somebody and haveto say hi.
She's like, really, did you have to say hi?
I'm like, yeah, I had to say hi.
(03:10):
So like Shawn said, he was working at Cintas and it was he came in early one morning at acompany we both worked at.
And I do my team building stuff I was at that time with the crew.
And I don't know we were
probably under 100 at that point.
It was a pretty large group though.
And we were all on the floor doing some stuff.
(03:33):
We were doing some role plays, skit stuff.
And I don't know specifically what we were talking about.
I think it might've been who moved my cheese.
Could've been Tuckman's ladder too though.
But they've got their back to the Mesnane and I see him up there kind of.
listening and watching what's going on.
And then we spoke afterwards.
To make the story story short, we interviewed him and hired him.
(03:56):
And yeah, and it was kind of interesting at the time, we were looking for somebody andthey're like, we got to find someone, we got to find someone.
I said, Hey, I, I just met someone, I think he's our guy.
And they said, Oh yeah, who's that?
I go, it's, you're not going to believe this, but he came from the Navy as a chief
And you are damage control officer?
(04:17):
Shawn, I may be butchering that.
That was the name of our rating.
other militaries call it an MOS, Military Occupational Specialty, but we call them ratingsin the Navy.
It's Damage Control.
and you're overseeing a number of vessels in the Pacific fleet.
So when my last command I was at was overseeing, I was the damage control assistantofficer, I guess.
(04:44):
So I was the damage control assistant of nine different ships.
So I had to go out to nine different ships, talk with their chiefs, and evaluate, inspect,train, do whatever I could to help them be successful as best as possible.
And whatever that would look like.
I wasn't always successful.
(05:05):
We weren't always successful.
But the lessons that came from that was huge.
So that was my last command that I was at.
Then before that, was on board ships and then shore duties.
Yeah, so that was with.
gonna, yeah, that's a tremendous amount of personnel and responsibility.
That just overwhelms me compared to the small circle I'm in in construction, even thelarge circle within construction.
(05:31):
But I can remember, and I still play this through in my mind very clearly, sitting in theinterview with two other individuals.
And one of them asks Shawn, because he was skeptical.
He goes,
So why would, why would we hire somebody that's had this huge responsibility in the Navythat's now running a route for Cintas And, I just, I was pretty blown away that he asked
(05:56):
that, but at the same time, you're, and I may butcher this, your answer was prettyincredible.
You had stated that when you retired, individuals that you respected had said,
take a position in the civilian life to transition from military to civilian and just takeit slow and the opportunity within a certain timeframe will present itself.
(06:21):
And when you shared that and he said, really, so what was the timeframe?
And you said, I'm pretty close to about a week from when they said it was gonna happen.
And I was just like, I got chills.
And...
Shawn, you're now a very successful individual within construction and safety.
(06:41):
And that level of leadership, that level of emotional intelligence, there's not manypeople that possess that, my friend.
And I'm really, I'm blessed to know you and I'm blessed to watch your career and see whereyou're at.
I just, I'm thankful that we're talking today because I think this story needs to beheard.
And I think it's inspiring.
It inspires me.
(07:01):
I just gotta say.
Thank you.
For me, it's hard to measure success, but I appreciate that.
when I got to know Shawn a little bit before today, and Shawn also shared with me sort ofthat transition and that taking a job to just sort of even civilian life.
(07:23):
But what's it like shifting Shawn from a very structured military environment to thecivilian world and learning to lead within, because I got to imagine there's differences,
right?
yeah.
within the military and then leading within civilian world.
I'm not a military, I personally didn't go into the military, but old school constructionwas very much a like you do as I say kind of situation and is very authoritarian and
(07:53):
things have changed a lot.
So can you talk a little bit about the kind of those differences and was that challengingfor you to kind of change any of that?
So it's absolutely challenging.
So when you leave that very structured, is, here's our hierarchy, here's our chain ofcommand.
You start here, we're doing this, then do this.
(08:14):
You give an order, a direction, whatever you want to call it.
And then if it doesn't get done, you turn around and hold that person accountable inwhichever way is the best way.
So the challenge is when
when you get out, when you're used to a certain way of life, which is why, you know, thefolks I talked to said, Hey man, when you get out, dude, find a job that's high speed, low
(08:37):
drag, and just help that transition.
Cause if you go into a job that's, that's very, you know, leadership based and everything,it's going to be more challenging because trust me, I went through it.
So I was like, okay.
So now fast forward to when I met Scott and was hired on there.
One of the challenges and the guys would call me out, which was awesome, but at the sametime, it was frustrating.
(08:59):
They'd say, hey this isn't the military, man.
We don't run it like that.
It's like, okay, fair enough.
I'm still in that very structured.
Hey, this is what needs to get done.
Make it happen, Captain.
And figuring out that they're not used to someone like me.
I'm not used to that.
So there's a lot of of growing pains, we'll call it, to really figure out what that needsto look like.
(09:26):
And then in the end, it was all about pulling people aside individually going, all right,man, check this out.
Here's what I'm really trying to accomplish.
What do you see to make that successful?
How can I work with you to get you in this point here?
Because this is really the goal of where we want to be.
Tell me about your history.
So was a lot of figuring out that connection where in the military, at the time we weren'treally pulling our sailors and Marines aside going, hey, let's have coffee and lunch and
(09:52):
tell me about your day and tell me about yourself, right?
There was some intrusive leadership where we would try to figure that out, but it wasn'tanything like it is today, right?
Where it's looking at the civilian, it's I wanna know the background, I wanna know whereyou're from so that I can approach you correctly.
Because some people don't,
Take well.
It sounds like there's that rapport building, right?
(10:12):
that rapport building, getting to know someone, meeting them where they're at, whichdoesn't necessarily always happen in other environments.
which is a really important piece.
I know we've talked about when it comes to sort of trust building and team building isthat rapport building that we start with is really, really incredibly important and can
take some time.
(10:33):
This is exactly why when I talk about building high performing teams and building leadersand know how to build leaders because Shawn clearly knows how to do that.
The listening to understand and the taking an individual aside and actually listening totheir story and having them focus on listening to where you're coming from.
So Shawn came from, and my son was in the Navy for 22 years, retired.
(10:58):
And he's just now in civilian life.
And it's been about two years working in civilian life.
And he's going through this exact same struggle Shawn.
He calls me all the time.
So it's like a repeat of what I've watched you go through.
It's kind of crazy.
But in the Navy, different than in construction, not necessarily where you're at, you dosee situations where people's lives are in danger.
(11:22):
Similarly, but in the Navy,
If you're not doing what you're told, you are jeopardizing everybody's life.
And so that accountability aspect is a power and authority position.
And it has to be, there's just no getting around that.
But when you come into civilian life, we've got this funny thing within these companiescalled HR.
(11:44):
And you're not gonna get away with that kind of thought process.
the thing that I...
saw when I was suggesting that we hire you and the thing that I understood more thananything else, you had all of the skill sets and extremely high emotional intelligence.
And you had from the Navy, a high level of discipline.
That discipline just had to be learned in a not away from a power and authority aspectinto a different light.
(12:11):
And you pick that up really quickly.
There were frustrations, but
When I say quickly, it's a relative term.
It might be an ongoing process, but the circle of trust, the ability to collaborate andthe taking people aside and having the one-on-one, but more than that, what I saw more
than anything else, you were having fun, You were having fun.
(12:32):
And that's your...
stories and where you came from.
And I remember you telling some, know, people get shocked about you calling them out onsomething and you tell a story and they'd just be standing there with their jaw dropped.
That really happened?
It's like, yeah, that really happened.
Let's talk a little bit about your primary role, Shawn, is safety related in construction.
(12:55):
And that's a challenging space, I would imagine, to lead.
I've touched on it a little bit in helping to run safety programs at construction firms,mostly because I worked for smaller heavy civil contractor at the time.
you wear multiple hats.
you know, walking onto a job site, I was sometimes viewed as like, great, here comes herecomes the popo, coming in to write me up.
(13:19):
And it's really not.
That's not the intention.
I mean, yes, we do do that.
But there's something else to the intent of why we show up as safety leaders.
Tell me more about that on your perspective, because it's not just about writing peopletickets.
No, for me, it's I want people to go home when I when I tell the people that I've workedwith and continue to work with.
(13:42):
I explained that it's the the process of safety and everything.
The impact of that is really what happens if you're not safe.
Right.
What's and to me, it's not about, hey, you know what?
OSHA said so this regulation says so people don't care about like a speeding ticket.
If you're
hauling butt down the road and you just get a speeding ticket and no one, the officer, thejudge, whoever doesn't explain why that's important.
(14:06):
Why is going slower in the rain important?
Why is that one little thing?
Reduce your speed by five miles an hour.
Why is that so important when you're driving in the rain?
If you don't make it important or create that kind of exclamation mark before somethinghappens,
then it's a harder lesson to go by.
(14:26):
So I do my best and again, I'm not always successful and I get some hard lessons of no, Iwent about that the wrong way.
I need to step back and look at what I'm doing and then readdress, right?
It's about making the importance of it.
So if I go out to a job and for instance, if someone's not wearing the right PPE, I'llsay, on, hey, where's your...
(14:48):
Take your pick.
Where's your safety glasses or where's your, hearing protection?
Like where's why, why is your hands all here?
Where's your, what's the impact of that?
If you aren't wearing safety glasses and you're doing a task that exposes your eyes tothat damage, right?
To, to, the bad juju and you lose an eye.
Well, what was that eye worth?
(15:09):
If you lose both eyes, how, how like,
For me, it's the impact of your family, of you, of everything around you.
If you lose your hearing, like if I lose my hearing, how do I hear the people that I love?
How do I listen to laughter?
How am I able to do that, right?
I'm not able to, so then I have to figure different methods out.
(15:33):
If I lose my eyesight, and same, same, if I lose my hand, right?
I go at it with the impact of what happens.
yeah, it's funny.
I'm thinking back to conversations I've had in the industry and folks often, you have apercentage of people though, or a group of people who operate in the, I have to fuck
(15:53):
around to find out situation.
that's just how some people are, right?
I related to like me riding motorcycles.
I used to go stupid fast around turns, stupidly.
And I eventually fucked around and found out and went flying off of it at 95 miles anhour.
it psychologically had a bigger impact on me than more than anything physically as well.
(16:14):
until that moment, I had never considered that that would ever happen to me.
I had never, it was like that happens to other people.
It's never gonna happen to me.
And a lot of people operate from that exact opinion of like, it happens to them.
I'm but I'm always okay.
(16:34):
And until something sometimes happens to people or somebody something happens right nextto them that they physically see and are a part of.
A lot of folks just can't that doesn't sink in.
How do you what's that conversation like as that that has to be challenging to lead peoplein that space for that reason.
(16:56):
it absolutely can be.
And again, I'll go back to the importance of here's why.
I've had on other job sites where I've had, I'll say an old head, guy's been doing it for30, 40 years.
I was like, hey, why aren't we doing A, B, and C?
well, we don't need it.
Well, but we do.
We absolutely do.
(17:17):
The history of this expo, of this,
shows that we've needed this.
Well, it's never happened to me.
So I'm good.
I'm like, no, you're lucky.
You're not good.
You're lucky.
So like we got, we have to understand that, that you're lucky in this and that you haven'thad something, happen yet.
(17:37):
Right.
And hopefully it never does, but you've been lucky.
So give me a favor.
Let's, let's look at this and,
If you feel that that's not the right way, well then let's talk.
Let's look and see what the right way is because we need to be successful.
We need to be safe.
And in a business, business is there to make money.
So we need to check all those blocks at the same time at the best of our ability.
(17:59):
And sometimes it's, hey man, if we take an extra five minutes for this, that's going tosave 50 hours down the road.
And the extra time or the extra whatever now, then that's going to save us the heartache,the whatever pains and heartburn down the road, whatever that looks like.
(18:19):
and sometimes it's just a straight up conversation to depend again, depending on theperson, right?
Cause you can't, I have to remind myself this all the time.
I cannot always go with the issue or the conversation, the same with every single person.
I'm not going to be successful.
So I have to, I have to remind myself that, but there are other folks that you just pullthem aside and go, Hey dude, we can't do that.
(18:43):
Pull your head out of your ass and understand that this is what has to happen.
And if it doesn't happen, then this has to stop and we have to come back, regroup and thenstart again.
I don't want to have to do that.
You don't want to have to do that.
So if we could just, just take a few minutes and then, let's converse about what thisneeds to look like.
So with it, we're good moving forward.
(19:04):
Right.
Shawn, it's interesting that you're in this, the position that you're in is probably oneof the most difficult leadership positions there is because when you're calling people
out, they're gonna take it either one of two ways.
They're gonna, like you said, they're either gonna listen and correct or they're gonnapush back and.
(19:28):
and murmur and be pissy about it.
And there's a percentage that you had shared.
Yes, that's true too.
I was on a very large civil project in LA for a very large GC and we were a subcontractor.
And we were required to be in this safety meeting every Monday morning.
(19:50):
So first thing before we go out to the job site on Monday mornings, we
be in this room with, I don't know, it was in this big hall, there was two, 300 people inthere.
And the safety guys, the safety team would put pictures and video up on the screen ofindividuals on this 11 and a half mile job site, which is huge.
(20:11):
And have them stand up and berate them, just beat them down for what they caught themdoing.
At some point, like the second or third week in, I grabbed my crew and we got up andwalked out.
And of course the PX and the safety guys and everybody came to where we were working thatday and said, Hey, you're required to be here.
(20:31):
And I said, no, this is, this is complete bullshit.
You are creating a police state.
People are looking over their shoulder for you to show up with the camera.
rather than understanding what safety really is.
And so I pushed back pretty hard and they got really, they threatened to throw us off thejob and fine us and all this.
(20:53):
And then the PX says, so I'm hearing you, you're not gonna back down from this, what wouldyou do differently?
And I said, I know for a fact you're a huge company and you have pictures and video fromso many other job sites that you could use examples.
that nobody personally is gonna get called out that you could create safety moments.
(21:15):
So he looks at me and very candidly says, all right, wise ass, show me what you think youcould do.
Because I said, and make something fun out of it to where the guys actually buy in.
And so we had a week, I grabbed some of the select guys on our crew that were willingbecause some of them were like, hell no, I'm not getting up in front of 300 people.
And so we talked about trench safety.
(21:36):
And we had one guy lay on the floor, which everyone was laughing at to begin with.
We had another guy standing up on the edge and I walk up and say, hey, you shouldn't bedown there.
You don't have any shoring or any protection.
And he goes, no, no, I'll just be a minute.
I'll be a minute.
And then the guy up on top says, hey, aren't you married with kids?
(21:57):
And he goes, yeah, why are you asking?
He says, I'm single.
Do you have any pictures of him?
And he goes,
Well, what do you mean?
said, you're not going to make it long and they're going to need somebody.
And everybody laughed.
And all of a sudden we went from police state to, hey, this is serious.
This is something that we need to understand.
And so when we went further on to talk about trench safety and the value that it createsand how quickly something can happen, we got done.
(22:28):
They applauded 300 people.
applauded the safety meeting for crying out loud.
And when we walked out, the PX of the project, he pulls me aside and he said, that waspretty epic.
I've never seen that.
And I said, well, you have to take a approach to safety to where you lead people to buyin, even if they're gonna be that percentage that are gonna hide it, like you're saying,
(22:55):
there's still gonna be that.
But if you don't look at it from a perspective of educating them in a positive way, andyou're just like you said, Shawn, writing the ticket.
I mean, when I get the speeding ticket, whether I show up or not, I still wad it up,pissed off and throw it on the floor.
But at the same time, if you can create an environment where you show up as your authenticself, and you lead them to an understanding that they didn't originally have,
(23:22):
that buy-in of the minority don't have a chance against the majority.
The majority will actually take it upon themselves to call these situations out whenyou're not there.
And for me, that's a level of safety leadership that I don't think we see a lot of in theconstruction industry, and it's sad.
(23:43):
we do, I think it's in the last decade that's grown.
I would say I've seen that shifting in a very positive way, where leading safety has verymuch become different.
And I like the changes I've seen.
it's very similar to what I think police have to go through in trying to do their jobs ofholding people accountable.
(24:05):
Like we have OSHA.
Also OSHA exists for a reason.
Their rules exist for a reason.
It kind of makes me laugh.
People like laugh about like warning labels on things of like, do not ingest your TidePod.
I'm the reason that exists is because some dumb ass ingested it one day or.
at least a couple people probably did.
(24:25):
And it's obviously an issue that enough people thought about it or did it that they haveto now put a warning label behind it.
those rules exist because enough people were dumbasses and did something to prove that weneed that rule in place.
And so it makes it kind of makes me think, Shawn, and maybe you can talk to this becauseyou're a current safety professional.
(24:49):
Yeah.
It kind of makes me think of all of these Instagram videos you see in reels and TikToks ofjust these horrific safety incidents.
Well, people record them and share them.
I mean, yeah, they're out there for quote unquote entertainment, but they're real.
That are real.
(25:09):
Yeah.
are you, can you, are you leveraging that stuff?
Like to help people see, like this shit really happens, guys.
yeah, so when it pops up on LinkedIn, anything that is pertinent is specifically to whatwe're doing, because I always want to throw, hey, look at this, look at this.
We got to maintain this.
But if it doesn't directly reflect on what we're doing, it's not going to have the valueand weight that it really should.
(25:35):
So trench deaths, trench collapses, anything that has to do with what we're doing.
I'll send out and say, hey, heads up, like, check this out.
this is real, folks.
It might not be happening to us.
We may be mitigating a lot of this, but it's still happening throughout this state.
It's happening in other states.
So just because it's not happening to us doesn't mean it's not happening at all.
(25:56):
So we've got to be mindful.
We have to be able to look at that.
Here's some examples of that.
And then when we do safety training every year where we
We kind of shut down for about a week and we go formally train and have differentinstructors come in and talk about confined space and a bunch of other topics.
(26:18):
But that's really my opportunity personally to really face to face with our crews and say,this is important.
Here's why it's not just because of this, but we have to be looking at this and we showvideos and, and statistics.
The statistics really don't hold a lot of weight.
for some of them, but the statistics still tell the story, right?
(26:39):
Numbers don't lie.
So it can be a challenge.
And we have gotten in the industry definitely better in the eight years when I startedback in 17, just looking at it and seeing the shifts and the changes, right?
Because regulations are written in blood, policies are written in blood because somethinghappened to create this
(27:03):
policy, whatever that policy is.
And for your case in point, Tristen, don't eat Tide Pods because people were eating TidePods.
Back, I want to say it was the 80s.
I don't know if y'all remember this.
McDonald's was sued because of hot coffee, if I remember right.
(27:24):
And I could be wrong.
So now on their lids and on the
I think it's on the cup too.
think my son let it says caution.
Contents are hot.
Like if you're getting, you're buying hot coffee and yeah, like, this is coffee.
It's going to be ice cold.
No, it's not.
It's hot coffee.
(27:45):
Like, but to your point, that's
had to put that on the package.
Yeah
Yeah, so
The fact that it had to be identified is the part that's most interesting, but it'scorrect.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, there's two pieces to this.
There's the dumbassery, which we all recognize exists in the planet.
(28:06):
I mean, I've done dumb.
Like my husband literally last week was in the garage doing something and he droppedsomething heavy and he's like, yeah, good thing I my safety crocs on.
And I just had to start laughing.
Right.
It was a joke.
He had his crocs on and probably shouldn't have had them on.
And so it kind of probably hurt us.
Yeah, sport mode, sport mode safety crocs.
(28:29):
Mine at least have linings, so we're not going to get stuff in them.
anyway, but so you have the dumbassery but then you also have legitimate like, legal riskmitigation intention behind things too.
So there's, there's the the piece of like, I want to make sure people are safe.
I want to, you know, do these things because other people haven't.
And then there's the I also don't want to like have my company go down in flames becausesomebody sued me.
(28:54):
and I have to offload risk.
So my brain and safety, both of those things are simultaneously true in most situations.
part of the reason behind the label on the cup for McDonald's was more risk mitigationprobably than anything, because I really don't think at the end of the day they gave a
shit if people accidentally drank hot coffee because they were too stupid to realize itwas hot.
(29:15):
Like, come on, sorry.
Yeah.
I got you.
me because I'm like, just like that's like giving me a Tide pod.
Like really, what are we doing here?
So a lot of it is more about like our legal system and mitigating risk as well.
So it is both.
And as a safety leader or any kind of leader in construction, I think you have to like putboth hats on, which is really hard, I think.
(29:38):
And you do it.
It's that can that can definitely be a challenge when, cause as a safety professional,it's not just I'm making sure that our employees are safe and go home safe.
But I also have to look at risk mitigation for the company and exposures for the companythat either aren't identified or maybe they are identified.
And we really need to kind of wrap our brains around that.
(30:00):
Does that need a policy?
Does it not need a policy?
Does that just need a training element in order to make the awareness there and
good follow through and good enforcement and good safety culture, right?
Cause that's all going to come in with that.
And then looking at behavioral based safety, right?
Cause that's really, in my opinion, what safety is behavior based safety, right?
If you create the behavior for safety, then eventually that comes around full circle andyou have a good safety culture.
(30:28):
And then that safety culture gets stronger and stronger and stronger, right?
So that, that
lining or the armor of safety gets thicker and thicker and thicker.
And to me that ties into the very foundation of all of what we've talked about throughthis series of leadership, which is trust, building the trust and rapport with one
another.
So I remember a lot of, I worked in heavy civil for a while and the crews I watched weremostly composite crews.
(30:56):
they continued to work together over a consistent long period of time.
the right hand knew what the left hand was doing without even talking.
Like they could look at each other and they knew how like they knew each other's looks.
It's it's and I think there's a lot to that that is helpful if if you can do that forfolks in the industry because allowing people to spend enough time together to build that
(31:17):
trust I think is really important both for them and as a leader.
Because if I only see you every once in a while, because you show up on my job site hereand there because you're being moved around, I've got to imagine that's really hard to
build trust with somebody when they're being punted all over the place.
You, I want to interject a little bit here and go back just for a moment.
(31:38):
I remember Shawn and we started you and I at the same company in the manufacturing settingand the difference from going from the manufacturing safety aspect to construction in the
field.
And now for you construction in the field to Tristen's point with multiple sites.
that that had to have been a tremendous challenge.
(32:02):
But he already had the experience in the military with all the different ships he served.
Like, I'm making an assumption, Shawn, about your experience, but I feel like you broughtthat knowledge with you from your military service.
Yeah, and that made, at least for me, that made it a lot easier to kind of transition fromhaving the construction manufacturing to, okay, now we're going straight to the job site
(32:25):
and managing one or two job sites.
And then, but it's not just underground, it's underground, it's vertical, it's all thesubcontractors that we have on the job site, managing all of them in the safety aspect and
leading them in the safety aspect.
And then,
taking that and putting that to multiple job sites.
So the challenge with the multiple job sites now is getting to them and making sure thatwhen I go out, I'm talking with everyone as much as I can.
(32:57):
go out, shake everyone's hand, at least look up and go, hey, what's up, man?
And give them that wave to, hey, I'm here.
Hey, how you doing?
And sometimes it can be overwhelming when you've got 10, 15 job sites
And let's say that one job site is
I don't want say more hazardous, but there's definitely more exposure and there's more,more eyes on that you need to be because of so many moving parts.
(33:19):
plus the administrative side that you have to make sure is maintained.
So getting through all those initially was, was a huge challenge, right?
Just figuring out, okay, what do need to do?
How do I get effective with this?
How can I be successful with managing my time, managing my tasks?
(33:40):
and getting the feedback, even if that's pushback to me, feedback is positive feedbackbecause I'm getting something in return.
Even if that's, dude, you got your head up your ass, Shawn.
That's not how that works.
Okay.
Tell me how it works.
Educate me because if I'm not educated, then I'm making an assumption and I'm shootingfrom the hip and shooting from the hips.
(34:00):
Not good.
So that's, that was one of the challenges and it can, yeah, it can.
have to find yourself, you have to find yourself and even on a single job site withmultiple different tradesmen in, like you said, underground, above ground.
You have to build advocates or leaders to be present when you're not present, is thatcorrect?
(34:24):
that level of leadership in sharing your knowledge and your understanding and inspiringthese people to look at things different and finding those individuals that have what we
call a high level of emotional intelligence, which by the way, I believe you possess avery high level of emotional intelligence, but having and building within them these
foundational pieces to lead from a safety perspective.
(34:48):
and support that gives you the ability to shift to, like you said, to job sites that maybe more hazardous to where you may not have that representation.
And that trust factor at some point, Shawn, I know that I have experiences too.
It's the why factor.
They want to show that they're succeeding and they're successful.
(35:10):
There is a need to
know that at any moment you can show up and that they're doing the right thing withouthaving to be asked or told.
And that's that level of leadership that we really strive for, most especially in theconstruction industry, is building those advocates, those leaders, tradespeople that
(35:32):
understand to take a step forward even then.
as we're building these leaders that they are taking away from that, the ability in
following your example, to build other people into that leadership role.
And I got to tell you, for me, that's where it really starts for me with the people,because it's about the relationships and it's about sharing.
(35:53):
I mean, we've been through all these things.
It's about sharing those insights and those understandings to get them to another level.
And I've seen you do that.
I've watched that.
I know that I've done it and I watched Tristen do it too.
It's really a level of leadership that
It makes it fun.
I listening to you both speak, specifically around safety, I feel as though growing thosefolks into safety leaders specifically on job sites.
(36:26):
I think a big piece of it also is empowering them with the knowledge that if they act,they stop work.
insert whatever thing you want to do, action you want to
knowing that you're going to support them.
And I, I'm saying this because I was as I was listening to you speak, both of you, I wasreflecting on my early days, when I was in my early 20s in San Francisco on a job site,
(36:52):
pretty large job site.
It was kind of the precursor infrastructure to what is now like Mission Bay and the GiantStadium area.
And I remember an inspector showed up.
one of the big name inspectors, and went to walk on the job site.
And I was like the baby project engineer, this little tiny young 20 something female inthe middle of like this.
(37:16):
And I looked at him, I'm like, where's your PPE?
And he's like, oh, I don't have it with me today.
I was like, well, you're required to have proper shoes, proper hard hat, safety glasses atminimum.
I need you to have those.
we don't have any extras.
And he's like, well, I'm just going to be 30 minutes.
I was like, yeah, I can't let you on the job site.
(37:38):
And this is 20 something me talking to like the head inspector dude of San Francisco,entire region.
And one of the guys next to me is like, are you crazy?
I was like, no, like he has to, should, of all people should be the example to others.
And I'm just, no, You need to leave or go get your PPE.
(37:59):
And my boss 100 % backed my play.
And I knew that he would in that moment.
He didn't back a lot of other shit for me, but he backed that.
And...
I had confidence that he would because I was doing the right thing.
It was an example to everyone else on that job site that we valued safety, we valuedthose, and we were gonna uphold those values regardless of your rank or position in this
(38:25):
entire world.
And I think that's important that we hold everyone accountable to those same things,regardless of who they are.
I don't know.
I don't know if you guys have any stories about things like that, but it just really mademe reflect back on like upholding those values and supporting people when they do it on
job sites because it's important to support them.
(38:46):
And maybe they make the wrong call in a moment, but still support them, I think is really,really important as a leader.
I think it absolutely is.
Because if we're doing our due diligence, if we're out leading by example, I go out andI'm doing something that I'm showing, hey, this is what we should be doing.
Here's why.
And then that starts to get picked up and starts to grow and grow and grow.
(39:09):
And if someone were to, let's say, walk up to a subcontractor or an inspector, because I'msure we have millions of stories about
A, B, and C walking on a job without the right stuff.
And if they...
flip flops through the job site in the morning in shorts.
my word.
it.
But if we don't support them, and when they're doing that and saying, hey, I need you tohave PPE or hey, you need to go check in with the mobile trailer to go get a quick
(39:40):
orientation done or hey, I need you to come here.
Hey, there's a process that I need you to follow.
If you can do me a favor, talk with this person here and get that done.
And if they're getting told to pack sand and then they...
Mm-hmm.
the leadership know and the leadership goes, I don't know, we don't control them, thenthat completely takes, and what you're talking about is empowerment, right?
(40:01):
That completely takes that empowerment out.
That deletes everything that you're trying to do, right?
So the supporting aspect of it, the backup is huge.
I'm gonna say it's fundamental to the success, right?
And that's safety doesn't matter, accounting, whatever the job is.
If you don't have the support of your leadership,
(40:22):
You are going to struggle.
You're at least I know I'm going to struggle.
I'm not going to be as effective or, or, efficient as I can be.
eventually I'm going to burn out and say, you know what?
just, can't, I don't have the support.
don't have the right leadership behind me.
And I, I got to look for something else or I got to do something else, or maybe I need tostep back and say, Hey, can we sit down and talk for a minute?
(40:45):
Hey, I feel like I'm not getting supported.
Thank you.
at least communicating that openly so that maybe they're not aware.
Maybe we get into these motions and a rut, for lack of a better term, and maybe that's notnoticed.
Maybe it's just firing on all cylinders and going, hold on.
(41:08):
I wasn't even aware of that, man.
I'm sorry.
Let me step back here.
Let's look at this.
So that can be huge.
I think that kind of, that kind of fits a little bit into, know Shawn, you and I talkedearlier this week.
It's a little bit of when you're, when you're creating new teams, we talked aboutTuckman's Ladder and about that forming and storming and the ability to have constructive
(41:32):
conflict within that in order to work through that storm to get back to a better phase ofyour, for your team.
And part of that is having the ability to speak up.
and have conflict and not move away from the conflict but move through the conflicttogether.
And at the end of the day, me giving up something and you giving up something and usagreeing and compromising isn't necessarily the right thing either.
(42:03):
We've talked about that in one of the episodes and it's hard, it's hard work.
So
when we start talking about Tuckman's Ladder and the storming part of it, right?
There's a lot of conflict resolution that has to happen throughout the whole process.
And you might not hit all of them.
You might go straight from storming to performing, right?
So you might jump a step because it just clicks and it was just that accelerated.
(42:28):
But to have that conflict resolution and the constructive conflict,
Right.
Cause there's constructive conflict, deconstructive conflict, Constructive conflict beingyou, you disagree with me.
We disagree.
Let's find out why we disagree.
Okay.
Then we get into understanding that.
And then that's that constructive conflict, right?
(42:48):
That's a conflict resolution of moving forward.
And it's not necessarily the compromise.
It's the understanding, right.
To what Scott was saying, listening to understand, right.
That level three listening where it's.
I need to hear what you're saying.
I need to be able to digest what you're saying so that I can understand it.
If I'm just listening to you, just so I can respond and throw something back at you,that's not as effective, right?
(43:13):
In fact, that's usually kind of productive.
So there can be a lot of different moving parts to it.
And so long as you understand those moving parts and what that really means, I thinkthat's pretty key.
So there was a point Tristen, when we were, don't know if it was Tuckman's ladder,actually I think it was emotional intelligence, where we were talking about the core
competencies, the self-awareness, self-management, social awareness, and relationshipmanagement.
(43:37):
And then you have the 12 crucial competencies under it.
But what Shawn brought forward and what you brought forward Tristen, where you know thatthere are individuals that in,
in the hierarchy of leadership that have your back.
That when you speak out, they're going to back your play.
And I think that's a piece of emotional intelligence.
And I don't know if it's a core competency or one of the 12, we could have as a 13th thatyou had brought forward is advocacy awareness.
(44:06):
Understanding that you have an awareness of the trust factor, the, the
advocacy awareness factor, so to speak, and you brought this forward in one of ourepisodes, that you don't have to even hesitate because you know that you're in the right
and they're going to back your play and you have that and possess that awareness.
(44:27):
And I think that is a, goes to that circle of trust and it's a different level of thattrust level.
It's not just, Hey, I trust you because we're standing in front of each other and we're inthis meeting together.
It's Hey,
I know enough about you and how you operate that you, within the ground rules ofengagement, you always operate this way and whatever it is that comes up, I've got you.
(44:52):
Well, and I'll add, it's not necessarily even about because I made the right call or theright decision, right?
Like I'm going to make, we all are going to make bad decisions, uninformed decisions,decisions.
Like it's going to happen.
And I think the testament of a good leader is having room for that.
(45:16):
Giving room for that to happen and
still, I have your back.
And we're going to learn from this and we're going to grow together,
one of the things that comes out of the foundational pieces that I personally feel areimportant in getting to emotional intelligence is the levels of listening, Tuckman's
(45:36):
ladder, change management, looking at things different, time management, but all of thatleads up to when like Shawn in the leadership position and when you're building other
leaders is recognizing
coachability within people, recognizing, hey, they may make mistakes.
Like we said, they may not do everything correct the first time.
(45:57):
But when you correct them, that coachability aspect is there and you know that it's alock, it's locked in.
And it's recognizing that, that skill set or that development in people.
Is that something that you have come to recognize when you're
working with individuals that you see this right away.
I know that I've developed that skill.
(46:19):
I feel like Shawn definitely probably has.
I know he does too.
I have my moments.
I'm not infallible for sure.
I'd like to say, I recognize everything.
not, but no, I don't.
I think that that is a huge skill set for leadership, right?
And it's not just the lead coach mentor aspect of her, right?
(46:40):
You're leading, you're coaching, you're mentoring in the best way possible
for the success of that person and the team and overall company though, just everythingacross the board, right?
Cause it's one team, one goal.
that's, you, you, there's individuals in teams.
So you have to be able to identify the individual.
You have to have that acknowledgement of individuality so that you can bring that onto theteam and have it be successful across the board.
(47:10):
I know for me, sometimes I struggle with the individuality of it.
Like, hey, we're one cog in the machine.
It's like, well, hold on, step back.
Like if we take this cog out, the machine doesn't run.
So the individuality for me and how I look at it absolutely has to be recognized in orderto be successful with the team.
But you also have to be able to, for me, I have to be able to identify others and kind oftheir emotional state.
(47:37):
Like if,
They operate a certain way if their MO is day in, day out.
And then one day it's not so much there.
You're like, huh, hey man.
So going out on job sites, talking with people and interacting with that trust, right?
It's huge to be able to go, hey, you got a minute?
Hey, let me talk to real quick.
(47:58):
Hey dude, everything good?
Cause you've been kicking ass this whole time and you seem a little under the weather.
I just want to check in on you, see, make sure you're good, dude.
Thank
make sure you're rocking.
Like, you know what, I've had this going on, I've got this going on, okay.
And then just listen, right?
And be able to identify that.
(48:18):
Scott and I have had that experience in the past when I first started working over there.
miss those, I miss those when you pull aside moments and I was included in that becausethe value stream that comes out of that is, yeah, I've actually witnessed that, Shawn, and
when you mentioned it, I just got chills.
That was, some of the best moments in leadership and sharing is just getting, and I callit, when you recognize that, I call it,
(48:47):
Hey, just getting down in the mud with them.
Just get down there in the mud with them and find out what's going on.
Yeah.
Cause it's you, you have to take yourself from this bird's eye view and get finite.
You have to bring yourself to the ground.
We're like, all right, what's going on now?
I haven't always been successful.
I'm gonna tell you what I've been guilty of walking on the job site over something andgoing, what, who the hell did this?
(49:09):
What the?
And then have the person who did it said, Hey man, that was me.
You ain't, you ain't gotta like call me out in front of everyone and cuss and shit.
And I was like, damn, you know what?
at least they called you out on it, right?
they did.
And I immediately apologize like, damn, dude, you're right.
I'm so sorry.
And I looked at once that I shouldn't have done that.
That was totally that's my fault.
My bad.
(49:30):
I love I'm the step back and I'm gonna come readdress because that that's not how thatshould be.
So I said, I'm not available.
That's sharing your authentic self though.
That's sharing your authentic self and that vulnerability to admit that you had made anerror, that actually goes a long ways in building trust.
(49:51):
I'm gonna tell you what, that is one of the pieces.
If you have the ability to self-awareness of stepping back and going, man, I just steppedin it big time.
I apologize, dude.
That goes a long ways.
Another piece that came to mind while you were sharing, Shawn, was the emotionalintelligence level to recognize when you are not the right leader for someone and taking
(50:15):
yourself out of that situation or recommending that they move on to a different situation,a different role, a different responsibility.
I think some leaders really struggle with acknowledging
that because there's this attachment of like, well, I'm not enough then, or I'm not thispersona of I am the leader, therefore I must fill all roles and all shoes for all people.
(50:38):
That's not true, because I think we all have individual styles and some of them don't fitwith other people.
I fully acknowledge that.
There are some people, number one, I'm not the right leader for their needs.
Number two, I really don't want to lead them because
insert a million different reasons why depending on the you know the situation Because Iknow in that moment that we're not going to create success for them I think a challenging
(51:04):
Thing in our industry that I've seen is there's this assumption
sometimes that just because you have a leadership role that you could do that foreverybody and that's not that's relatively not true in my from what I've seen.
And you have to be able to identify that.
then for me, the challenge is, damn, I'm not the right leader.
(51:25):
I'm not the right person to make this team, this take your pick successful and being ableto own that.
Because I've had to do that in the past.
And that is not a comfortable conversation for me at all.
A leader, I lead coach mentor as best as possible.
And it's hard for me to say, you know what?
(51:49):
I don't have what it takes.
I don't have either the right skillset, the right experience, the right take your pickwith this team, this insert to make it successful.
So I think we need to look at it again and go, Hey, this needs to go to here or to someoneelse because I don't have the right.
(52:10):
still set for this.
don't have the right abilities.
I don't have the right whatever.
And that, like to your point is, is a challenge because I don't want to say that I'mwrong.
I don't want to say I suck.
I don't want to say that, that I'm not the greatest in the world, right?
That's, that's hard because I'm, telling myself that and I have to look in the mirror andgo, Hey, you're not the right guy for this.
(52:30):
You're just, you just, you've done what you can and
this, this for.
best part about this is like, we all have this internal story, right?
That we're gonna tell ourselves, it's like, well, I'm not good enough, or I'm not theperson, I'm not that guy, or I'm not that woman.
But at the end of the day, the fact that you're even doing it proves that you absolutelyare because you're recognizing it needs something else.
(52:52):
So in that moment, you are actually, in my opinion, the highest example of leadership inthat moment, because you are recognizing that it needs something different.
Yeah.
I did this on a, we were working on a project and we had a team that was working on thisand Tristen is in R &D, director of R &D and for a day job.
(53:13):
And it was a project that I was involved in.
I was one of the inventors of this from the very beginning.
And we got to a point where I was so passionate and so wrapped up and so
love about you, Mr.
Scott Brown.
But the fact was, I did not allow room for failure with that perception and what I wasprojecting.
(53:38):
I literally pulled myself out.
I pulled myself out of the team, but I did recommend a replacement.
Not to say that they still didn't inform me on where they were going or what they weredoing for feedback, but I wasn't engaged in that because if I had stayed there to that
point, I would have...
it would have never created the success that it created and recognizing that in myselfthat I was not the right person.
(54:02):
Shawn, that was hard.
man, I'm here to tell you that was like, talk about the passion that I had for this thingnot failing and to recognize and tell Tristen, I can't be part of this.
I have to back out, but I believe this individual would be a good fit.
And how did that go when I did that?
Well, you didn't squirrel as much, I'll tell you that.
(54:23):
no, that that that particular team squirrels like a mofo.
And they always will.
it's something I love about it.
And I also get frustrated by it because, you know, I like let's get things done.
But also, I appreciate that we can take 10 minutes at the start of any meeting and justsquirrel the heck out of everything.
Get the squirrels out and then move on.
(54:43):
At least in the moment, because I squirrel to like my.
squirrel brain.
If you guys only heard all of the inner squirrels that happen every day, my husband somedays is like, how do you how do you ever go to sleep?
I truly don't know.
My brain never stops.
We're getting close to time here.
So any final thoughts in general on leadership at all from other view?
(55:09):
Well, for me personally, this has been great, Shawn.
I'm really thankful you joined with Tristen and I.
This was good.
This needs to happen again, honestly.
The conversation and hearing, and I guess I didn't really fully have a great awareness ofthe level of leadership that's required from a safety manager, safety leaders perspective.
(55:32):
That is incredibly impressive to know the nuances and the
the different pieces of that that have to be there.
And I really appreciate you sharing that.
I'd like to hear more.
It's pretty cool.
Yeah, amazing.
Any final leadership thoughts from you?
(55:53):
I don't know that.
I'm not the best leader in the world.
I'm I'm effective.
I like to think.
But I know that that looking at what I've achieved, what my folks that I've worked withhave achieved and watching them grow for me is huge.
As a as a leader, I think that the key points are.
Emotionally intelligent, allowing that failure, right?
(56:15):
Being able to recognize that and being able to, if need be, step back, take yourself outof that picture, readdress and then come back, right?
Cause that's growth.
That's where we get into the leading and the coaching and the mentoring.
Right.
For me, those three letters are huge.
I learned that in the Navy lead coach mentor and that's stuck with me.
(56:38):
And I think for a lot of folks that'll stick with them.
for forever.
And one last thing, Tristen, before we go.
Yes.
Shawn the one thing that came forward that I tend to lose sight of is the personalinteraction and personal relationships and the ability to just get down in the mud with
them to understand and the value that that creates.
(56:58):
And my friend, you're one of the best at that.
And I got to say that is the measuring stick of true leadership and the ability to connectwith people.
And because let's face it, the leadership is about people and that's
That's where the, that's, we could all learn from that.
And with humility, I do understand that it's not tooting your own horn.
(57:20):
It's about seeing the success of others is creating that pathway.
And I appreciate you sharing that, man.
That was great.
I appreciate you guys having me on and reaching out.
It's been great.
to thank both of you for spending your Sunday morning with me.
This will be our last episode on the Leadership Series.
(57:41):
It does have to come to an end.
But just for folks' awareness, kicking up the week after this will be a whole week forWomen in Construction Week where
We are interviewing anywhere from 10 to 15 amazing women in this industry from all sortsof professions, backgrounds, and two to three episodes a day being released.
(58:05):
So look out, world.
We're hitting you hard.
I have a
more to come as always and If people have anything they want to talk about or think isimportant hit me up and thanks for joining us today, everybody
Thank you, Kirsten.
Thanks, Shawn.
Thank you for tuning in to today's episode of The Construction Cafe.
(58:28):
We hope you found our conversation as inspiring as your next big project.
Remember, you can dive deeper into the resources and topics we discuss by connecting withus on LinkedIn and Instagram.
Just search for The Construction Cafe.
Don't miss out on future episodes.
Be sure to follow us on Spotify, Podbean, and Apple Podcasts to keep the conversationgoing.
(58:48):
If you're passionate about the construction industry and have a story to share, we'd loveto hear from you.
Visit our website at the constructioncafe.com and drop us a note.
Let's keep building together.
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