March 3, 2025 • 32 mins
In this episode of The Construction Café, Tristen Magallanes sits down with Margie O’Driscoll to explore her dynamic career at the intersection of construction, design, and policy. From pulling wire on job sites as a young girl to shaping building codes and influencing global reconstruction efforts, Margie shares how her experiences have fueled her passion for creating equitable opportunities in construction. They discuss the urgent need for workforce expansion, the importance of visibility in attracting women to the field, and how small shifts—like inclusive marketing—can create lasting industry change. #WICWEEK2025
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Episode Transcript
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(00:05):
Welcome to the Construction Cafe, where the buzz of the construction industry meets thewarmth of a friendly conversation.
I'm your host, Tristen Magallanes.
Join me at our virtual cafe as we explore the foundations of construction culture, sip oncutting edge concepts, and amplify the unspoken voices in our industry.
So grab a cup of your favorite beverage, pull up a seat, and let's build more than juststructures, let's build connections.
(00:33):
This is the Construction Cafe.
Welcome back everybody to another episode of the Construction Cafe.
We are kicking off our Women in Construction Week series.
(00:54):
So this is going to be anywhere from 10, possibly all the way up to 15 different episodesat this point.
We've had tons of amazing people raise their hands to participate and just super excitedfor it.
And our first guest is Margie O'Driscoll.
I've had the pleasure of working alongside you in different capacities for a few yearsnow.
(01:15):
My husband, by the way, always talks about you.
He met you that one time and just thinks you are just the most nicest person.
So you're etched in his mind, by the way.
So Margie, would you just give us a brief little introduction?
So I've had the luck and pleasure of a very multifaceted career path.
(01:38):
I actually studied philosophy at university.
And I like to say that that simultaneously prepares you for everything and nothing at thesame time.
Exactly.
So I've worked in government and in the design and construction industry for my entirecareer, which is many years.
(02:00):
Let's not talk about how many.
Yeah, I know people sometimes ask me how long have I been in the industry.
I'm like, well, do we need to?
More than two decades.
Let's call it good there.
That's awesome.
And you're based in the California area.
Have you always worked in the industry in the California area or different regions?
(02:23):
I actually worked in Washington DC on Capitol Hill for a number of years, and then I didmy graduate degree in New York City.
okay.
Okay.
I didn't know that.
Cool.
See, I get to learn new things.
This is the best part.
you told me, we talked a little bit before we started recording, and you were telling me alittle bit about some of your history in exposure to construction.
(02:44):
And you shared a little bit of a story with me.
And I would love for you to share it with listeners if you're comfortable with it aboutsort of your experience and your first exposure to sort of construction.
So my dad was trained as an electrician and he ran a small electrical contracting companyin San Francisco.
(03:04):
And there were many Irish builders at that time building multifamily housing in SanFrancisco and there still are.
by the time I got to be about 12 or 13 years old, he said, okay, you're old enough towork.
And so all his daughters ended up being sent to job sites to pull wire.
And so that's how we spent our summers and occasionally during the school year as well.
(03:30):
The story that I shared with you is the first time I went onto a job site, I was probably13, maybe 14 years old at the time.
And my dad dropped me off, he explained, here's what you need to do.
And I had known essentially what the task was and I started doing it.
And what I noticed is that no one on the job site would speak to me.
All the people on the job site were Irish.
(03:51):
men and they did not like the idea of a woman being on the job site.
And so they needed me to do the work because they knew that I was competent and could dothe work.
But on the other hand, they didn't want me there.
So the way that I was treated was essentially to be hazed by everyone.
So no one spoke to me the whole time I worked on the job site all day, all summer long, noone would ever speak to me.
(04:13):
And what was interesting for me is that what I took away from that was just a resolve tonever
to never work in that situation or allow that kind of situation for anyone to ever betreated on a work site or in life in that way.
It's interesting.
Similarly, my dad's a carpenter and I remember rolling up and coming to, he did mostlyprivate home building.
(04:38):
It was what he worked in.
And I remember coming to the job site with him.
And I was like really young.
I want to say like nine or 10.
So definitely didn't belong on a job site.
I'm sure Osha would have, I don't if it existed back then or we just didn't follow thoserules back then of like kids on job sites, but.
(04:58):
And he would just set me up with like hammering nails and doing some easy, simple stuff,right?
And then my friend in high school, her dad did custom home building.
And so we worked with him and we would help hang drywall in the summers, us two girls.
yeah, similar experience of...
(05:22):
We were there, I think, because we were like the daughter of someone.
It was accepted that we were there, but kind of ignored, largely ignored.
But it definitely, I think, I agree that it framed that I don't want others to have tohave this same experience as me.
However, I know factually from speaking to current people working in trades that it stillhappens.
(05:47):
it's, mean, granted, we were also kids and maybe there's something there too, but
That's really frustrating and unfortunate.
I'm thankful for the experience because it taught me something about how to treat otherpeople.
So yeah, in a way, it was double-edged sword there.
So can you share with us a little bit about what are the different types of roles you'vehad that are either directly in the industry, adjacent to the industry, because...
(06:17):
We're trying really to like have this conversation of other ways that women can show up inthis industry.
It's not just using a hammer every day.
I mean, you can also do that.
So what are the tell us about your roles that you've had in this industry.
So I've really had a commitment to working within the nonprofit world and usually createdin some way to design and construction.
(06:40):
So after I graduated from university, again, with the degree that prepares you foreverything and nothing, through a weird sort of situation, an elected official who I knew,
a supervisor here in San Francisco named Harry Britt came to me and he said, you know,Marge,
I know you're in a job you don't really like now and I have a problem and I think you'd bethe right person to go help fix this problem.
(07:05):
And I said, okay, what's the problem?
And he said, we have a group of artists who are living and working in a industrialbuilding in San Francisco called Project Artaud And the artists own the building.
It's an entire square block.
It's the old American Can Company.
And the artists are living there, but the city of San Francisco doesn't allow them to liveand work.
(07:26):
in this building and we have to fix this.
Can you go and fix this?
And I, Harry Britt, will create a piece of special legislation to have this one buildinggo through.
So can you just go tell me what do I want it, what that to look like?
And I was like, no problem.
I can totally do that.
So I went over there and started working with these artists and learned a couple of reallyimportant things.
(07:48):
One is that.
There was no live work building codes anywhere in the world at that moment in time,certainly in the United States.
And that not only was Project Artaud an artist live work building, but there were tons ofthese other buildings all around the country and where people were living in an
intermediate space, somewhere between legal and not legal.
(08:09):
And knowing that tragedies can occur as would end up happening many years later with aghost ship fire.
with people living in an illegal situation.
So fast forward back to the 80s.
So I tried to figure out what was the path forward for people.
And I finally ended up working with this fabulous guy who was the chief building inspectorin San Francisco.
And so I went to him and I said, so we have these building code issues.
(08:32):
not really planning code issues.
like, can you help me?
Like, what can we do?
What can we do to keep them, keep these artists safe?
They own the building.
They're not going to go away.
Like, let's figure this out.
And fortunately we had a terrific building inspector, guy named Lawrence Kornfield.
And Lawrence said, okay, yeah, let's figure this out because we know there's otherbuildings.
(08:52):
And so here's what you need to do.
You need to essentially cover all the existing conditions in these buildings, ceilingheights, lofts, how are people cooking, all those sort of things.
Document all of that and then come back to me.
And I said, okay.
So I did all that work, came back, showed him all that work and he said, okay, great.
Now you need to argue to me as the chief building inspector, what are people, how arepeople allowed to live under the building code in those situations?
(09:18):
And I was like, I don't know anything about the building code.
How did I know about that?
I'm not an architect.
I'm not a builder.
And he said, here's the building code, have at it.
And so I suddenly had to learn like, and, and, and work with him to discuss the buildingcode with, with no, and let me try, let me say no expertise in this.
(09:38):
Funny enough, I've recently had a project come up where I've had to learn a lot about thebuilding code.
Oddly kind of adventurous and interesting to learn about.
yes, let's yeah, sorry.
So anyway, so that's how I started to do that.
so we ended up, really, Lawrence is the one who did all of the work as the buildinginspector, coming up with the live work building code for San Francisco.
(10:04):
And it was based on the experience in Project Artaud because really the typology ofindustrial buildings, especially those built at a particular period of time, was pretty
universal.
Little did I know, no one else in the country had that.
And this got adopted all around the country as the model.
most unfortunately, most tragically, not in Oakland, still to this day, does not adopt abuilding code.
(10:27):
And there was a tragically, the ghost ship fire, I don't know, seven or eight years ago.
so tragedies happen when you don't set up what the rules are because then no one knows howto enforce them.
Well, I think people just don't think necessarily that having any kind of job or role inconstruction, whether it be specifically in building or whether it be as a building code
(10:53):
influencer, enforcer, that impacts people's actual lives.
And there's often this disconnect I see of like, I'm just building this thing.
And then you have people such as yourself and others I know.
Yes, and living bodies are going to exist in this.
(11:14):
And how is what we're doing impacting those living bodies, those minds, those souls, thosefamilies, those communities?
And for people who are like, I want to work in construction, but it's just we're justputting some pieces of metal together.
There's a deeper meaning and can be a much deeper meaning to it.
(11:37):
I was part of.
one of the early on projects that was the precursor to the New Bay Bridge.
And I have immense pride when I drive across that bridge that I impacted people's abilityto drive to work or to drive across the Bay to see family and you can ride your bike on it
(11:59):
and walk.
I have a lot of pride behind that and excitement that people enjoy it and people need itand it's service to the community.
Building and being a part of construction isn't just about having your job and having yourpaycheck and it can be those things too.
But it's super exciting to me to think about the impacts you're having and can have inthese different roles on the community and people around you.
(12:24):
And that example you shared is a great one, especially because we've seen the outcome ofwhat happens if we don't do that work with the Ghost Ship Fire
And for anybody who isn't familiar with that, you could look it up and it pretty bigtragedy that happened in Oakland, California.
Again, I think seven, eight years ago, maybe.
(12:47):
So, yeah.
And then you've gone on to do other amazing things with your career.
I will say that my first exposure and introduction to you was through the Center forInnovation.
And it was...
I think it was like a forum or a conference or something like when I first worked atSwinerton, And it was my also my first exposure to design thinking.
(13:16):
which has become sort of a keystone of what I teach now and what I believe in strongly.
So thank you for that part of influence on my career.
I don't know if you realize that or not, but it definitely has been a big impact on mycareer.
So it's been kind of fun.
(13:37):
When it comes to specifically equity for women in construction.
Or there are specific changes you think or that come to mind that still need to be made ormost needed.
Well, think when, you asked someone on the street what they think the job is of someone inconstruction, they're probably drop an image above the builder.
(14:06):
And for those of us who are in the construction world or aspire to be in that constructionworld, there are a whole lot of other jobs than someone walking around, excuse me,
carrying a tool belt or lifting a concrete block.
There are so many other jobs and so many ways to influence that.
And I know that because I also worked at the American Institute of Architects in SanFrancisco for 12 years.
(14:31):
So I worked with all these amazing designers who had ideas about how buildings can impacthow we live, work, and worship is the way that we used to say about the architect's
opportunity to shift how we create better spaces for people, healthier spaces.
for that are healthier for the occupants, as well as for the people who actually do thework around them.
(14:56):
So I think that the amazing thing that I learned when I was working at the AIA is how manywomen are involved in the design process and how, and oddly how comparatively few are
involved in the actual construction process in all its different forms.
So I think that's really interesting and I don't really know why and I think, you know,
(15:17):
have to say there are these cultural norms that happen with architect Barbie, you know,and other ways.
So those help shape how children and also parents are leading their children on to thinkabout their future careers.
(15:37):
think it's really a challenge to have people think differently about designingconstruction.
Well, and I think people assume the word equity means equal, same, like equal numbers, orthey conflate that idea with the difference between equity being opportunity to
(16:04):
participate over, there has to be the same amount of number of men and women.
I don't think those are the same.
And I think contextually, we conflate that a little bit with we need.
the numbers need to be bigger.
Well, I do agree with that.
However, I think there are plethora of opportunity for women in the industry.
(16:25):
just might look different.
It might be different.
And it might be more design, leading more design teams or leading manufacturing spaces.
And I think
My view is just educating people on what those opportunities are.
And also, you pointed out, educating them from a very early age.
(16:48):
It doesn't have to be Bob the Builder.
It could be Carla the Carpenter or Diana the Designer.
Let's expand that at a younger age for folks to see that the opportunities are there.
think the interesting part of my work is because I work really at the intersection ofdesign and construction as well as policy, is I spent a lot of time with mayors and
(17:12):
elected officials talking about the critical needs which face all of our communities.
And one of the most critical needs is housing.
it's, you know, I'm based in the Bay Area, but it's a national problem.
And you know what?
It's a worldwide problem.
When you look at the impact of wars and everything else, we have a critical need.
for trained people who can rebuild not only due to war, but also due to climate change.
(17:38):
And the only way we're going to meet that need is by creating a work environment, whichincludes women, because there are not enough people right now doing this work.
We see acute shortages here in the United States and around the world, just with ourcurrent challenges.
And you know what?
The challenges will only continue to increase.
(18:01):
we think about what's happened in Los Angeles, it's going to take an enormous number ofpeople, men and women, to rebuild.
There will not be enough people if we don't open up the profession to more people than arecurrently considering, because we have a crisis right now.
Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with that.
(18:22):
I think historically we can see examples of this during wartime when men largely weregoing to war and therefore the number of available folks to work in variety of quote
unquote male jobs, women stepped in and did those jobs.
It's not about capability.
(18:43):
We've obviously proven that we are capable, right?
How do we make it accessible?
I think some of that's addressing issues of housing for people in those areas, making itaffordable.
think it's also, childcare is still a very, very, very large responsibility of women.
I'm seeing pockets where it's starting to shift and change.
(19:05):
However, it still largely falls on women.
And I've always said, hey, why don't we offer childcare at the job site?
And people are like, what?
That's crazy.
be surprised.
I bet if you offered it you might bring more women there.
I haven't found anybody willing to try it yet but we'll see.
(19:29):
No, I think that's absolutely true.
You have to spend time, any leader has to spend time understanding what are really theobstacles and you have to get out of your own head.
And I think that people, you know, people hold what they hold in their own minds, but ifyou start to unpack that a little bit, there are some very novel solutions which are
actually implemented quite successfully in other places in the world, which we in theUnited States should be adopting.
(19:56):
But we tend to be,
so internally focused that we're not aware of how other countries, especially Europeancountries, have responded to the challenges.
We think we're the only ones who have to create something new.
And there's so many great solutions out there in the world.
So many opportunities to learn from one another, I think, in the planet.
(20:20):
If you, just pivoting a little bit here, if you could give your younger self, your youngerwoman in construction self, one piece of advice, is there something that comes to mind of
what it would be about navigating this industry?
(20:42):
Hmm, so I have couple of thoughts.
I always have when somebody asked me this question.
I was like, man, so many things
Yes, there are many things in my mind.
So the first is, I think one of things that I worry about when I speak with youngerleaders than I am now is how worried they are about the future.
(21:07):
And I always want to say, you're going to be fine.
You are going to be fine.
If you're curious, if you're interested, you're going to be fine.
In your life, your career trajectory is going to undertake many different changes.
throughout your life, embrace them, welcome them.
The world is really different than when my parents and grandparents were around where youstayed at the same company your whole life.
(21:29):
Not happening, you're not gonna stay in the same job, not gonna happen.
It's all different, it's all different.
So embrace that ambiguity.
That's the first thing that I would say.
I would also say that when I was younger, I had more of a mindset of scarcity, of thinkingabout...
(21:49):
making do with what I had.
And I think one of the things that I've really tried to embrace as my career hasprogressed is the idea of awe and wonder and leaving scarcity behind and saying, what is
really possible here?
So instead of always facing the constraints which you feel are around you, imagine thosefences down and say, okay, if those fences were down,
(22:16):
What are the possibilities?
How might we create something bigger so that we're not in a zero-sum game aroundeverything?
Because that was very much the way that I was taught in school, is everything waszero-sum.
There's a winner, there's a loser.
And you know what?
Success in life is creating winners for winning opportunities for everyone.
That is what success really looks like.
(22:38):
And that takes a little more time and a little more breaking down of the barriers weartificially create in our minds.
But to me, that's the opportunity of creativity that is beyond the mechanics of AI andthose sorts of things.
Wonder comes from our imagination and our curiosity.
And so I would encourage, I would wish that I had more of, that I embraced that more whenI was younger.
(23:03):
And I'm really working hard to do that in my career today.
funny you bring that up.
I don't think my younger self would have heard that if I had said that to my younger self,just FYI.
I think I would have been so stubborn and thought I knew it all that I would havedefinitely not heard that a piece of advice.
But I just finished an IDEO U course on creativity.
(23:27):
And one of the activities is the only bad, it's called like only bad ideas.
And
It's so counter-intuitive of like, here's the thing we're trying to solve, but you're notallowed to give me a legit idea.
I only want the worst possible outlandish things that come to mind right now.
(23:48):
And that's kind of what that reminds me of is like this curiosity, this wonder, like,let's just get out of this.
I have to have the solution, the value, like, let's just remove ourselves from that alittle bit sometimes.
And when you allow that,
creativity, that curiosity, that fun to happen, the actual solution might just come.
(24:12):
I definitely would have never, ever, ever thought that way when I was 20.
Well, I think there is the need for more fun and playfulness.
And I think it's really easy to use all of our skills and excel in budgeting and analysisand forget the bigger picture.
(24:33):
And so to me, that's something I'm always trying to figure out is, like, how do you makefun?
How do you build community?
How do you build a connection within people?
Because if you want to bring about change or progress or have anything succeed, it's gotto be about the people at the end of the day.
Absolutely.
that we use, it's gonna be about the people.
And at end of the day, ultimately you wanna work with people you appreciate and trust andhave fun with.
(24:59):
And I think sometimes it's that fun piece that people are worried about with construction.
It's hard work, it's this, it's that.
And I'm like, I've seen a of spaces of fun.
And I've definitely had some very hard days, but I've had some incredible days and madesome incredible connections that have pivoted my life in ways that I couldn't imagine.
(25:21):
So yeah, I think it is here in this industry.
Well, to get to wrap up, I just wanted to know, is there any women in this industry thatyou feel need a really big shout out?
I have so many names running through my head right now.
(25:44):
But this is the fun part.
We get to shout them out of like, you've done great work.
And it doesn't have to be all of them.
If there's a couple of them, let's elevate them because that's part of what we need to dofor each other.
So one woman who has just left us is a woman named Marsha Maytum who was a principal atLetty Maytum Stacy Architects.
(26:06):
And she was one of the strongest women I've ever met who did some of the hardest workwithin architecture, working in very divided communities to come up with amazing designs.
And she's someone who I really miss, just an absolutely exemplary, wonderful woman.
I think I'd give you a huge shout out because you have taught me so much.
(26:32):
And I love how you, you're an innovator and you're always a questioner.
And I think that those are the skills which are going to serve you so well wherever you goin your life, in whatever way, both your personal life as well as your professional life.
So I would say you Tristen would be like very high on that list as well.
(26:52):
There's another woman who I knew for many years named Diane Philippi and she was themarketing director at an architecture firm, a couple of architecture firms over time.
And she right now is suffering from something called aphasia, which for someone who is acommunicator is the ultimate.
(27:16):
the ultimate bullet, I guess I will say, because she didn't really speak.
And so I would really give a huge shout out to her.
And I think there's this whole young generation of women, especially women of color, whoare upending both the design and construction industry.
And I want to give them a huge shout out because they are really leaning into, I think,some of the incredible challenges that we face today.
(27:43):
Yeah, I get excited about that.
Someday I'm gonna retire and I'm gonna get to watch things continue.
And I'm just, get super excited because there's a tenacity that they're approaching thingswith that I think took me a long time to get.
And it's just so exciting to me and they're doing incredible.
Can I add one more thing So one of the projects that I'm working on right now is a reallyhuge project, is preparing Ukraine to rebuild once peace is fully achieved, although there
(28:18):
is a lot of rebuilding happening right now in Ukraine.
At the Center for Innovation, we're partnering with a group called
Dobrobot, which is the largest reconstruction battalion, which is all volunteers.
They have 50,000 volunteers in the country who will go and repair grandma's farmhouse roofor a school or a hospital.
(28:38):
So they have trained volunteers.
And what they have done that's very interesting, they were telling me that they werestarting to see a decrease in the number of volunteers that they had.
Men were going to the front lines and they were starting to have women, but it's not aculture where, you know, women really see construction as a viable career path.
(28:58):
And to your point earlier, we talked a bit about the Rosie the Riveter campaign, whichtook place during World War II, which is about women mostly working in munitions
factories.
We had a lot of that here in the Bay Area.
But how by using women in social media and in publicity campaigns, you could actually makea difference.
So the Ukrainians that we work with are nothing, if not immediately adapted, taking anidea, iterating on it and making it 10 times better.
(29:27):
in 24 hours, they had shifted Dobrobot's marketing now to always include a woman in everybit of imagery and video that they did to normalize, to make this seem more normal.
And so, you know, people see that on their social media feeds and it start to feel...
starts to feel more normal.
And they've seen a surge in the number of women of all ages who now come and volunteer tolearn basic construction techniques.
(29:53):
So in terms of that making a new entryway for the enormous burden that they are going tohave to rebuild that country, they've lost about a million and a half housing units have
been damaged or destroyed during this war.
So they have an enormous building challenge, but only by integrating women into that.
absolutely.
(30:14):
to be able to actually build to scale?
that's partially because if you see someone like you in a space, you're more likely toshow up.
And that's just true, like in human nature.
So it makes sense to me that if you were to add women into your marketing, one, becausethey are there, not just falsely adding them, but highlighting the ones that are there,
(30:39):
that will potentially attract more, especially women of color, I think.
as the more underrepresented group.
And I think that's incredibly important.
I know that if I see an Instagram or a TikTok and it's a bunch of guys in a video, I'm notgoing to probably apply for that job, to be honest.
(31:01):
I think that's a really good point.
And they've done an incredible job over there of bringing women into that.
to the field and helping in construction to help rebuild.
I've had the pleasure of meeting some of them, incredible humans, incredible volunteerefforts that they're taking on and the amount of volunteers they've been able to pull in
(31:21):
is just astounding to me and I think it's awesome.
I hope others don't have to experience the situation they're in.
However, we can learn a lot from
Well, I really appreciate you sharing your journey and your experiences and...
I know that Margie is on LinkedIn.
If folks want to reach out to you, I'm sure that's a great pathway to do so.
(31:43):
Again, you've been an incredible influence on my path in this industry, especially withdesign thinking.
And yeah, I really appreciate it.
Thanks for joining us today.
Thanks.
Thank you for tuning in to today's episode of The Construction Cafe.
(32:04):
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(32:24):
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Let's keep building together.
Welcome to the Construction Cafe, where the buzz of the construction industry meets thewarmth of a friendly conversation.
I'm your host, Tristen Magallanes.
Join me at our virtual cafe as we explore the foundations of construction culture, sip oncutting edge concepts, and amplify the unspoken voices in our industry.
So grab a cup of your favorite beverage, pull up a seat, and let's build more than juststructures, let's build connections.
(00:33):
This is the Construction Cafe.
Welcome back everybody to another episode of the Construction Cafe.
We are kicking off our Women in Construction Week series.
(00:54):
So this is going to be anywhere from 10, possibly all the way up to 15 different episodesat this point.
We've had tons of amazing people raise their hands to participate and just super excitedfor it.
And our first guest is Margie O'Driscoll.
I've had the pleasure of working alongside you in different capacities for a few yearsnow.
(01:15):
My husband, by the way, always talks about you.
He met you that one time and just thinks you are just the most nicest person.
So you're etched in his mind, by the way.
So Margie, would you just give us a brief little introduction?
So I've had the luck and pleasure of a very multifaceted career path.
(01:38):
I actually studied philosophy at university.
And I like to say that that simultaneously prepares you for everything and nothing at thesame time.
Exactly.
So I've worked in government and in the design and construction industry for my entirecareer, which is many years.
(02:00):
Let's not talk about how many.
Yeah, I know people sometimes ask me how long have I been in the industry.
I'm like, well, do we need to?
More than two decades.
Let's call it good there.
That's awesome.
And you're based in the California area.
Have you always worked in the industry in the California area or different regions?
(02:23):
I actually worked in Washington DC on Capitol Hill for a number of years, and then I didmy graduate degree in New York City.
okay.
Okay.
I didn't know that.
Cool.
See, I get to learn new things.
This is the best part.
you told me, we talked a little bit before we started recording, and you were telling me alittle bit about some of your history in exposure to construction.
(02:44):
And you shared a little bit of a story with me.
And I would love for you to share it with listeners if you're comfortable with it aboutsort of your experience and your first exposure to sort of construction.
So my dad was trained as an electrician and he ran a small electrical contracting companyin San Francisco.
(03:04):
And there were many Irish builders at that time building multifamily housing in SanFrancisco and there still are.
by the time I got to be about 12 or 13 years old, he said, okay, you're old enough towork.
And so all his daughters ended up being sent to job sites to pull wire.
And so that's how we spent our summers and occasionally during the school year as well.
(03:30):
The story that I shared with you is the first time I went onto a job site, I was probably13, maybe 14 years old at the time.
And my dad dropped me off, he explained, here's what you need to do.
And I had known essentially what the task was and I started doing it.
And what I noticed is that no one on the job site would speak to me.
All the people on the job site were Irish.
(03:51):
men and they did not like the idea of a woman being on the job site.
And so they needed me to do the work because they knew that I was competent and could dothe work.
But on the other hand, they didn't want me there.
So the way that I was treated was essentially to be hazed by everyone.
So no one spoke to me the whole time I worked on the job site all day, all summer long, noone would ever speak to me.
(04:13):
And what was interesting for me is that what I took away from that was just a resolve tonever
to never work in that situation or allow that kind of situation for anyone to ever betreated on a work site or in life in that way.
It's interesting.
Similarly, my dad's a carpenter and I remember rolling up and coming to, he did mostlyprivate home building.
(04:38):
It was what he worked in.
And I remember coming to the job site with him.
And I was like really young.
I want to say like nine or 10.
So definitely didn't belong on a job site.
I'm sure Osha would have, I don't if it existed back then or we just didn't follow thoserules back then of like kids on job sites, but.
(04:58):
And he would just set me up with like hammering nails and doing some easy, simple stuff,right?
And then my friend in high school, her dad did custom home building.
And so we worked with him and we would help hang drywall in the summers, us two girls.
yeah, similar experience of...
(05:22):
We were there, I think, because we were like the daughter of someone.
It was accepted that we were there, but kind of ignored, largely ignored.
But it definitely, I think, I agree that it framed that I don't want others to have tohave this same experience as me.
However, I know factually from speaking to current people working in trades that it stillhappens.
(05:47):
it's, mean, granted, we were also kids and maybe there's something there too, but
That's really frustrating and unfortunate.
I'm thankful for the experience because it taught me something about how to treat otherpeople.
So yeah, in a way, it was double-edged sword there.
So can you share with us a little bit about what are the different types of roles you'vehad that are either directly in the industry, adjacent to the industry, because...
(06:17):
We're trying really to like have this conversation of other ways that women can show up inthis industry.
It's not just using a hammer every day.
I mean, you can also do that.
So what are the tell us about your roles that you've had in this industry.
So I've really had a commitment to working within the nonprofit world and usually createdin some way to design and construction.
(06:40):
So after I graduated from university, again, with the degree that prepares you foreverything and nothing, through a weird sort of situation, an elected official who I knew,
a supervisor here in San Francisco named Harry Britt came to me and he said, you know,Marge,
I know you're in a job you don't really like now and I have a problem and I think you'd bethe right person to go help fix this problem.
(07:05):
And I said, okay, what's the problem?
And he said, we have a group of artists who are living and working in a industrialbuilding in San Francisco called Project Artaud And the artists own the building.
It's an entire square block.
It's the old American Can Company.
And the artists are living there, but the city of San Francisco doesn't allow them to liveand work.
(07:26):
in this building and we have to fix this.
Can you go and fix this?
And I, Harry Britt, will create a piece of special legislation to have this one buildinggo through.
So can you just go tell me what do I want it, what that to look like?
And I was like, no problem.
I can totally do that.
So I went over there and started working with these artists and learned a couple of reallyimportant things.
(07:48):
One is that.
There was no live work building codes anywhere in the world at that moment in time,certainly in the United States.
And that not only was Project Artaud an artist live work building, but there were tons ofthese other buildings all around the country and where people were living in an
intermediate space, somewhere between legal and not legal.
(08:09):
And knowing that tragedies can occur as would end up happening many years later with aghost ship fire.
with people living in an illegal situation.
So fast forward back to the 80s.
So I tried to figure out what was the path forward for people.
And I finally ended up working with this fabulous guy who was the chief building inspectorin San Francisco.
And so I went to him and I said, so we have these building code issues.
(08:32):
not really planning code issues.
like, can you help me?
Like, what can we do?
What can we do to keep them, keep these artists safe?
They own the building.
They're not going to go away.
Like, let's figure this out.
And fortunately we had a terrific building inspector, guy named Lawrence Kornfield.
And Lawrence said, okay, yeah, let's figure this out because we know there's otherbuildings.
(08:52):
And so here's what you need to do.
You need to essentially cover all the existing conditions in these buildings, ceilingheights, lofts, how are people cooking, all those sort of things.
Document all of that and then come back to me.
And I said, okay.
So I did all that work, came back, showed him all that work and he said, okay, great.
Now you need to argue to me as the chief building inspector, what are people, how arepeople allowed to live under the building code in those situations?
(09:18):
And I was like, I don't know anything about the building code.
How did I know about that?
I'm not an architect.
I'm not a builder.
And he said, here's the building code, have at it.
And so I suddenly had to learn like, and, and, and work with him to discuss the buildingcode with, with no, and let me try, let me say no expertise in this.
(09:38):
Funny enough, I've recently had a project come up where I've had to learn a lot about thebuilding code.
Oddly kind of adventurous and interesting to learn about.
yes, let's yeah, sorry.
So anyway, so that's how I started to do that.
so we ended up, really, Lawrence is the one who did all of the work as the buildinginspector, coming up with the live work building code for San Francisco.
(10:04):
And it was based on the experience in Project Artaud because really the typology ofindustrial buildings, especially those built at a particular period of time, was pretty
universal.
Little did I know, no one else in the country had that.
And this got adopted all around the country as the model.
most unfortunately, most tragically, not in Oakland, still to this day, does not adopt abuilding code.
(10:27):
And there was a tragically, the ghost ship fire, I don't know, seven or eight years ago.
so tragedies happen when you don't set up what the rules are because then no one knows howto enforce them.
Well, I think people just don't think necessarily that having any kind of job or role inconstruction, whether it be specifically in building or whether it be as a building code
(10:53):
influencer, enforcer, that impacts people's actual lives.
And there's often this disconnect I see of like, I'm just building this thing.
And then you have people such as yourself and others I know.
Yes, and living bodies are going to exist in this.
(11:14):
And how is what we're doing impacting those living bodies, those minds, those souls, thosefamilies, those communities?
And for people who are like, I want to work in construction, but it's just we're justputting some pieces of metal together.
There's a deeper meaning and can be a much deeper meaning to it.
(11:37):
I was part of.
one of the early on projects that was the precursor to the New Bay Bridge.
And I have immense pride when I drive across that bridge that I impacted people's abilityto drive to work or to drive across the Bay to see family and you can ride your bike on it
(11:59):
and walk.
I have a lot of pride behind that and excitement that people enjoy it and people need itand it's service to the community.
Building and being a part of construction isn't just about having your job and having yourpaycheck and it can be those things too.
But it's super exciting to me to think about the impacts you're having and can have inthese different roles on the community and people around you.
(12:24):
And that example you shared is a great one, especially because we've seen the outcome ofwhat happens if we don't do that work with the Ghost Ship Fire
And for anybody who isn't familiar with that, you could look it up and it pretty bigtragedy that happened in Oakland, California.
Again, I think seven, eight years ago, maybe.
(12:47):
So, yeah.
And then you've gone on to do other amazing things with your career.
I will say that my first exposure and introduction to you was through the Center forInnovation.
And it was...
I think it was like a forum or a conference or something like when I first worked atSwinerton, And it was my also my first exposure to design thinking.
(13:16):
which has become sort of a keystone of what I teach now and what I believe in strongly.
So thank you for that part of influence on my career.
I don't know if you realize that or not, but it definitely has been a big impact on mycareer.
So it's been kind of fun.
(13:37):
When it comes to specifically equity for women in construction.
Or there are specific changes you think or that come to mind that still need to be made ormost needed.
Well, think when, you asked someone on the street what they think the job is of someone inconstruction, they're probably drop an image above the builder.
(14:06):
And for those of us who are in the construction world or aspire to be in that constructionworld, there are a whole lot of other jobs than someone walking around, excuse me,
carrying a tool belt or lifting a concrete block.
There are so many other jobs and so many ways to influence that.
And I know that because I also worked at the American Institute of Architects in SanFrancisco for 12 years.
(14:31):
So I worked with all these amazing designers who had ideas about how buildings can impacthow we live, work, and worship is the way that we used to say about the architect's
opportunity to shift how we create better spaces for people, healthier spaces.
for that are healthier for the occupants, as well as for the people who actually do thework around them.
(14:56):
So I think that the amazing thing that I learned when I was working at the AIA is how manywomen are involved in the design process and how, and oddly how comparatively few are
involved in the actual construction process in all its different forms.
So I think that's really interesting and I don't really know why and I think, you know,
(15:17):
have to say there are these cultural norms that happen with architect Barbie, you know,and other ways.
So those help shape how children and also parents are leading their children on to thinkabout their future careers.
(15:37):
think it's really a challenge to have people think differently about designingconstruction.
Well, and I think people assume the word equity means equal, same, like equal numbers, orthey conflate that idea with the difference between equity being opportunity to
(16:04):
participate over, there has to be the same amount of number of men and women.
I don't think those are the same.
And I think contextually, we conflate that a little bit with we need.
the numbers need to be bigger.
Well, I do agree with that.
However, I think there are plethora of opportunity for women in the industry.
(16:25):
just might look different.
It might be different.
And it might be more design, leading more design teams or leading manufacturing spaces.
And I think
My view is just educating people on what those opportunities are.
And also, you pointed out, educating them from a very early age.
(16:48):
It doesn't have to be Bob the Builder.
It could be Carla the Carpenter or Diana the Designer.
Let's expand that at a younger age for folks to see that the opportunities are there.
think the interesting part of my work is because I work really at the intersection ofdesign and construction as well as policy, is I spent a lot of time with mayors and
(17:12):
elected officials talking about the critical needs which face all of our communities.
And one of the most critical needs is housing.
it's, you know, I'm based in the Bay Area, but it's a national problem.
And you know what?
It's a worldwide problem.
When you look at the impact of wars and everything else, we have a critical need.
for trained people who can rebuild not only due to war, but also due to climate change.
(17:38):
And the only way we're going to meet that need is by creating a work environment, whichincludes women, because there are not enough people right now doing this work.
We see acute shortages here in the United States and around the world, just with ourcurrent challenges.
And you know what?
The challenges will only continue to increase.
(18:01):
we think about what's happened in Los Angeles, it's going to take an enormous number ofpeople, men and women, to rebuild.
There will not be enough people if we don't open up the profession to more people than arecurrently considering, because we have a crisis right now.
Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with that.
(18:22):
I think historically we can see examples of this during wartime when men largely weregoing to war and therefore the number of available folks to work in variety of quote
unquote male jobs, women stepped in and did those jobs.
It's not about capability.
(18:43):
We've obviously proven that we are capable, right?
How do we make it accessible?
I think some of that's addressing issues of housing for people in those areas, making itaffordable.
think it's also, childcare is still a very, very, very large responsibility of women.
I'm seeing pockets where it's starting to shift and change.
(19:05):
However, it still largely falls on women.
And I've always said, hey, why don't we offer childcare at the job site?
And people are like, what?
That's crazy.
be surprised.
I bet if you offered it you might bring more women there.
I haven't found anybody willing to try it yet but we'll see.
(19:29):
No, I think that's absolutely true.
You have to spend time, any leader has to spend time understanding what are really theobstacles and you have to get out of your own head.
And I think that people, you know, people hold what they hold in their own minds, but ifyou start to unpack that a little bit, there are some very novel solutions which are
actually implemented quite successfully in other places in the world, which we in theUnited States should be adopting.
(19:56):
But we tend to be,
so internally focused that we're not aware of how other countries, especially Europeancountries, have responded to the challenges.
We think we're the only ones who have to create something new.
And there's so many great solutions out there in the world.
So many opportunities to learn from one another, I think, in the planet.
(20:20):
If you, just pivoting a little bit here, if you could give your younger self, your youngerwoman in construction self, one piece of advice, is there something that comes to mind of
what it would be about navigating this industry?
(20:42):
Hmm, so I have couple of thoughts.
I always have when somebody asked me this question.
I was like, man, so many things
Yes, there are many things in my mind.
So the first is, I think one of things that I worry about when I speak with youngerleaders than I am now is how worried they are about the future.
(21:07):
And I always want to say, you're going to be fine.
You are going to be fine.
If you're curious, if you're interested, you're going to be fine.
In your life, your career trajectory is going to undertake many different changes.
throughout your life, embrace them, welcome them.
The world is really different than when my parents and grandparents were around where youstayed at the same company your whole life.
(21:29):
Not happening, you're not gonna stay in the same job, not gonna happen.
It's all different, it's all different.
So embrace that ambiguity.
That's the first thing that I would say.
I would also say that when I was younger, I had more of a mindset of scarcity, of thinkingabout...
(21:49):
making do with what I had.
And I think one of the things that I've really tried to embrace as my career hasprogressed is the idea of awe and wonder and leaving scarcity behind and saying, what is
really possible here?
So instead of always facing the constraints which you feel are around you, imagine thosefences down and say, okay, if those fences were down,
(22:16):
What are the possibilities?
How might we create something bigger so that we're not in a zero-sum game aroundeverything?
Because that was very much the way that I was taught in school, is everything waszero-sum.
There's a winner, there's a loser.
And you know what?
Success in life is creating winners for winning opportunities for everyone.
That is what success really looks like.
(22:38):
And that takes a little more time and a little more breaking down of the barriers weartificially create in our minds.
But to me, that's the opportunity of creativity that is beyond the mechanics of AI andthose sorts of things.
Wonder comes from our imagination and our curiosity.
And so I would encourage, I would wish that I had more of, that I embraced that more whenI was younger.
(23:03):
And I'm really working hard to do that in my career today.
funny you bring that up.
I don't think my younger self would have heard that if I had said that to my younger self,just FYI.
I think I would have been so stubborn and thought I knew it all that I would havedefinitely not heard that a piece of advice.
But I just finished an IDEO U course on creativity.
(23:27):
And one of the activities is the only bad, it's called like only bad ideas.
And
It's so counter-intuitive of like, here's the thing we're trying to solve, but you're notallowed to give me a legit idea.
I only want the worst possible outlandish things that come to mind right now.
(23:48):
And that's kind of what that reminds me of is like this curiosity, this wonder, like,let's just get out of this.
I have to have the solution, the value, like, let's just remove ourselves from that alittle bit sometimes.
And when you allow that,
creativity, that curiosity, that fun to happen, the actual solution might just come.
(24:12):
I definitely would have never, ever, ever thought that way when I was 20.
Well, I think there is the need for more fun and playfulness.
And I think it's really easy to use all of our skills and excel in budgeting and analysisand forget the bigger picture.
(24:33):
And so to me, that's something I'm always trying to figure out is, like, how do you makefun?
How do you build community?
How do you build a connection within people?
Because if you want to bring about change or progress or have anything succeed, it's gotto be about the people at the end of the day.
Absolutely.
that we use, it's gonna be about the people.
And at end of the day, ultimately you wanna work with people you appreciate and trust andhave fun with.
(24:59):
And I think sometimes it's that fun piece that people are worried about with construction.
It's hard work, it's this, it's that.
And I'm like, I've seen a of spaces of fun.
And I've definitely had some very hard days, but I've had some incredible days and madesome incredible connections that have pivoted my life in ways that I couldn't imagine.
(25:21):
So yeah, I think it is here in this industry.
Well, to get to wrap up, I just wanted to know, is there any women in this industry thatyou feel need a really big shout out?
I have so many names running through my head right now.
(25:44):
But this is the fun part.
We get to shout them out of like, you've done great work.
And it doesn't have to be all of them.
If there's a couple of them, let's elevate them because that's part of what we need to dofor each other.
So one woman who has just left us is a woman named Marsha Maytum who was a principal atLetty Maytum Stacy Architects.
(26:06):
And she was one of the strongest women I've ever met who did some of the hardest workwithin architecture, working in very divided communities to come up with amazing designs.
And she's someone who I really miss, just an absolutely exemplary, wonderful woman.
I think I'd give you a huge shout out because you have taught me so much.
(26:32):
And I love how you, you're an innovator and you're always a questioner.
And I think that those are the skills which are going to serve you so well wherever you goin your life, in whatever way, both your personal life as well as your professional life.
So I would say you Tristen would be like very high on that list as well.
(26:52):
There's another woman who I knew for many years named Diane Philippi and she was themarketing director at an architecture firm, a couple of architecture firms over time.
And she right now is suffering from something called aphasia, which for someone who is acommunicator is the ultimate.
(27:16):
the ultimate bullet, I guess I will say, because she didn't really speak.
And so I would really give a huge shout out to her.
And I think there's this whole young generation of women, especially women of color, whoare upending both the design and construction industry.
And I want to give them a huge shout out because they are really leaning into, I think,some of the incredible challenges that we face today.
(27:43):
Yeah, I get excited about that.
Someday I'm gonna retire and I'm gonna get to watch things continue.
And I'm just, get super excited because there's a tenacity that they're approaching thingswith that I think took me a long time to get.
And it's just so exciting to me and they're doing incredible.
Can I add one more thing So one of the projects that I'm working on right now is a reallyhuge project, is preparing Ukraine to rebuild once peace is fully achieved, although there
(28:18):
is a lot of rebuilding happening right now in Ukraine.
At the Center for Innovation, we're partnering with a group called
Dobrobot, which is the largest reconstruction battalion, which is all volunteers.
They have 50,000 volunteers in the country who will go and repair grandma's farmhouse roofor a school or a hospital.
(28:38):
So they have trained volunteers.
And what they have done that's very interesting, they were telling me that they werestarting to see a decrease in the number of volunteers that they had.
Men were going to the front lines and they were starting to have women, but it's not aculture where, you know, women really see construction as a viable career path.
(28:58):
And to your point earlier, we talked a bit about the Rosie the Riveter campaign, whichtook place during World War II, which is about women mostly working in munitions
factories.
We had a lot of that here in the Bay Area.
But how by using women in social media and in publicity campaigns, you could actually makea difference.
So the Ukrainians that we work with are nothing, if not immediately adapted, taking anidea, iterating on it and making it 10 times better.
(29:27):
in 24 hours, they had shifted Dobrobot's marketing now to always include a woman in everybit of imagery and video that they did to normalize, to make this seem more normal.
And so, you know, people see that on their social media feeds and it start to feel...
starts to feel more normal.
And they've seen a surge in the number of women of all ages who now come and volunteer tolearn basic construction techniques.
(29:53):
So in terms of that making a new entryway for the enormous burden that they are going tohave to rebuild that country, they've lost about a million and a half housing units have
been damaged or destroyed during this war.
So they have an enormous building challenge, but only by integrating women into that.
absolutely.
(30:14):
to be able to actually build to scale?
that's partially because if you see someone like you in a space, you're more likely toshow up.
And that's just true, like in human nature.
So it makes sense to me that if you were to add women into your marketing, one, becausethey are there, not just falsely adding them, but highlighting the ones that are there,
(30:39):
that will potentially attract more, especially women of color, I think.
as the more underrepresented group.
And I think that's incredibly important.
I know that if I see an Instagram or a TikTok and it's a bunch of guys in a video, I'm notgoing to probably apply for that job, to be honest.
(31:01):
I think that's a really good point.
And they've done an incredible job over there of bringing women into that.
to the field and helping in construction to help rebuild.
I've had the pleasure of meeting some of them, incredible humans, incredible volunteerefforts that they're taking on and the amount of volunteers they've been able to pull in
(31:21):
is just astounding to me and I think it's awesome.
I hope others don't have to experience the situation they're in.
However, we can learn a lot from
Well, I really appreciate you sharing your journey and your experiences and...
I know that Margie is on LinkedIn.
If folks want to reach out to you, I'm sure that's a great pathway to do so.
(31:43):
Again, you've been an incredible influence on my path in this industry, especially withdesign thinking.
And yeah, I really appreciate it.
Thanks for joining us today.
Thanks.
Thank you for tuning in to today's episode of The Construction Cafe.
(32:04):
We hope you found our conversation as inspiring as your next big project.
Remember, you can dive deeper into the resources and topics we discuss by connecting withus on LinkedIn and Instagram.
Just search for The Construction Cafe.
Don't miss out on future episodes.
Be sure to follow us on Spotify, Podbean, and Apple Podcasts to keep the conversationgoing.
(32:24):
If you're passionate about the construction industry and have a story to share, we'd loveto hear from you.
Visit our website at the constructioncafe.com and drop us a note.
Let's keep building together.
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