March 4, 2025 • 52 mins
In this episode of The Construction Cafe, we sit down with Dafna Kaplan, founder of Cassette, to talk about her unconventional journey from social work and global branding to the world of modular construction. From working with architects to betting on herself as a startup founder, Dafna shares how prefabrication is reshaping the industry and why women are leading the charge in this new era of building. We discuss leadership lessons from the legendary Paul Matt, the power of failure, and why construction’s future isn’t just about what we build—it’s about who we build it for. #WICWEEK2025
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(00:05):
Welcome to the Construction Cafe, where the buzz of the construction industry meets thewarmth of a friendly conversation.
I'm your host, Tristen Magallanes.
Join me at our virtual cafe as we explore the foundations of construction culture, sip oncutting edge concepts, and amplify the unspoken voices in our industry.
So grab a cup of your favorite beverage, pull up a seat, and let's build more than juststructures, let's build connections.
(00:33):
This is the Construction Cafe.
Hey everyone, welcome back to the Construction Cafe.
We are so excited to continue on our Women in Construction Week series for you.
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I'm not sure what episode this is going to be, but we're probably up into the 15th episodeof Just for Women in Construction Week.
And super excited today to be joined by Daphna Kaplan.
Thank you so much for joining me today.
Daphna, tell me a little bit about your journey and role in construction and who you arein construction.
(01:18):
my goodness.
I I should leave it to everybody else to tell me who I am in construction.
construction or I guess my job, I put a lot into it, but it's never, it's never the wholeperson, right?
So, who I am in construction, that's for, guess, history to determine.
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and I came to construction quite late, actually.
I worked for about 10 years in the consumer product sector first in my twenties, rightafter college.
I was in PR and marketing and ultimately in global branding.
So I had an international career that was more, you know, really focused on tech or thetech community.
(02:02):
I was fortunate enough to through just a weird series of life events to end up, takingthose skills to a modern, a small modern architecture firm in Los Angeles.
Sometime about 10 years in.
And I fell in love with modern architecture and ultimately sort of my, I regressed to mychildhood self that loved building with Legos.
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And I found that really where my place was, was in building things.
It's just what I loved.
so your initial education and background had nothing to do with construction then?
I mean, not directly.
had nothing to do with construction and it had nothing to do with marketing.
You would be familiar, I saw from your profile you have foster kids?
(02:50):
Is that?
Yes, I am a foster parent, yep.
So my education, my undergrad was social work and I was an independent living trainer forkids in foster care and delinquent and from 16 to 22 years old.
That was actually my training.
(03:10):
That was our last, our last foster kiddo was 15 to 18.
So that exact age.
and I loved it and it's still a big part of my life and love.
I don't have foster kids of my own, but.
There's so many ways to show up for foster kiddos, though.
I think people miss that it's not just about being a foster parent.
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You don't have to do that.
You can be a CASA.
You can be a volunteer.
You could be an educator.
There's so many opportunities and very much needed.
Yeah, I think it's just the beautiful thing for me about having that education and thatearly experience was just the awareness that it brings.
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You know, it was in a fairly small town.
I was in Eugene, Oregon.
And when you're in a town that small, you walk on the street and sometimes you actuallysee your clients and you sometimes see people.
And it made me hyper aware of what a high percentage of people.
are struggling in the world and to not make assumptions when somebody behaves badly, youknow, to always wonder, you know, what are they dealing with?
(04:23):
Well, and I even think it's hard for me to term it as that quote unquote bad behavior.
There's so much more to every story than that in my opinion.
it's really approaching things with empathy as best as possible.
I understand we all also bring our own stuff to that every time.
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But that's incredible that that was the first part of your career path, you know, andthat's, and this is part of
know, bringing forward for women in construction because there is opportunity to pivot andshift into the construction industry.
And I didn't, I did start in the industry, but I simultaneously studied psychology andanthropology.
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So I also have an interesting sort of intersection with how I got here.
And I think that's highlighting that there's opportunity that you don't have to start offin a certain way to get here.
You can get here in different ways.
And you're a great example of that.
Yeah.
And I, not just me, I'll tell you my, my, earliest experience, like in a constructioncompany was I, I, after I went, worked for that architecture firm, I mean, that was
(05:35):
educational.
was interesting.
Culturally.
And I love design.
That's a big part of, that was also a big part of my product years prior.
I worked with guys that graduated from art center and product design was a really bigdeal.
And that's a big part of what reaches me.
But I really found my people.
(05:55):
I worked for Matt Construction, which is a large local contractor in the SouthernCalifornia area.
And yeah, I don't even remember what we were just talking about.
Okay, well it just the connection of sort of how like that bridge into construction.
Yeah
I know what I was gonna say.
So, you know, before I started actually doing my own projects on the side, sort of on asmall scale, because at Matt, I was hired actually to again, to do brand like brand, I
(06:24):
ended up opening an office in the Bay Area because I had business savvy and I was helpinggrow the business.
And meantime, I went back and I actually did go to business school because I've beensuccessful at business, in spite of the fact there was so much I didn't know.
Mm.
Yeah.
from a board member standpoint.
So I went back to get all of those skills while I was at Matt.
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And what I was going to say to the not straight line career was that I found that some ofthe best project managers at Matt Construction were from the film industry.
Because they knew how to run multiple things at once.
It was usually the people that had a very diverse background that had a perspective forbig projects that was really useful.
(07:11):
Absolutely.
cannot, thinking of film, I just think, you know, I only know what I know and I'm thinkingof the things you see on TV about the difficult personalities in that industry to try to
help manage and shift around and move.
not, mean, so the people skills involved in the management of things is a high need inthis industry.
(07:35):
And so bringing that over from, I think I was speaking to somebody who used to be a nurseand she has since,
created her own construction company.
I'm like, I have to imagine patient skills and dealing with patients and doctors and allthose different fun personalities in there has helped you become incredibly successful in
this business.
And so I love that people are bringing forward the skill transferability, if that's thecorrect word, over into this industry.
(08:04):
It's incredible.
I love it.
I think it's...
it's back to the social work background.
It's back to your psychology courses.
It's what I will say, and I'll say a little shout out to Paul Matt, who he has sincepassed away, but who founded Matt Construction.
What that company was so well known for was working with big personalities like RenzoPiano and Moshe Safdie and every Starkitect you can imagine we worked with.
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and it was not dissimilar to the film industry in that respect to having a lot of thingsto manage.
So Paul Matt did say to me, I will never forget, he said, I can teach anyone to build, wehire for the soft skills.
Mm, that's important because I think it's often the other way around.
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People look at a resume and here's the check off of lit, check list of things that youneed to be able to perform and produce.
But it's a swing and the miss in a lot of respects when it comes to the quote unquote softskills.
don't.
And let me give a shout out to woman in construction.
Julie Whiteca was a project manager at Matt who actually got her start in scheduling.
(09:20):
She just had hard skills in scheduling and project management.
Awesome You've gone on to found your own company.
Yeah, don't hold that against me.
No, I'm not holding against you at all.
I find it admirable from my seat just because I've hesitated.
(09:45):
People have asked me, why don't you go make your own company, do a startup?
I recognize where I'm great and where I'm not.
And so that's been my hesitation.
Tell me what made you decide, like I'm gonna go all in and I'm gonna open my own companyin this industry.
think those are answers that change as you get older and look back on your life.
(10:10):
A lot of people have asked me about different decision points and said, well, why have youdone that?
Or why did you do that?
And when it's something that was recent, you have one answer.
And then when it's something that's 10 years ago, you look back and think, actually, Ithink this is why did it.
But I can say it was a moment in my life where
(10:36):
I left map construction and I had had this crooked line career.
and I didn't know what was next.
I mean, we left on friendly terms and I still consulted for them for a while, but I gavemyself a moment and some of that was just a moment in my life where I had gone through
(10:59):
some very hard things that made me just say life is precious and I am not spending fiveminutes doing something that is not entirely what I want to do or what's meaningful to me.
And the things that were really needed at Matt at that moment, I mean, we had grown from,I don't know, 120 million a year to 500 million a year in like three years, right?
(11:24):
It was just like, and what was needed was really operational growth.
I I told Steve Matt after Paul died, said, I don't think you actually need marketing.
And I was very up for the operational growth and leading it or being part of that.
But sometimes in this, it's not just about women, women or biases against women inconstruction.
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think there's also bias, role biases.
Like if there's a perception somehow because somebody had a marketing title or somebodyhad an HR title that in spite of the fact that they're really smart and actually have like
hidden down to the park on everything you've ever given them, you just can't.
It's, I recognized it was not mine to do in that place.
(12:12):
interesting.
going to fight for it and I can give my opinions, but at some point.
I realized, I even said, you're paying me too much not to take my advice.
If you want somebody to just do the things you want them to do, you could probably findsomebody at half my salary.
(12:36):
And I love this company and I don't want to be toxic.
And so I knew it was time for me.
Like you will always outgrow your role.
The hope is, I think, well, for some, I always hope that for myself.
Yeah, you often outgrow your role and it's not anybody's fault, know, and maybe, it'sjust, it just is.
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the only people, I remember thinking the only, it's, there, whoever owns the company andtook the risk and put the blood, sweat and tears in, like it is their prerogative to make
the decisions.
and I thought if I have so many opinions about things,
the only way for that to happen.
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it was this question of do I, would I actually bet on myself?
I was not gung ho to start a company and I never wanted to.
think like you, knew my limits and I also like, liked having my time off and I workedhard, play hard.
don't.
And as one venture capitalist said to me after business school, he said, there's wayeasier ways to make money than starting a company like that.
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You certainly don't do it for that reason.
so yeah, what made the decision?
It was just a moment in life where I, I, I decided to bet on myself.
I leaned into the things that were interesting to me.
And I leaned heavily into industrialized construction, every form of prefab, partlybecause I had a background in product manufacturing design.
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Like that was something I had a lot of history experience with, but also opinions about.
And I saw what was happening, all of the like money and the rise and fall of Katara.
Like I saw there was a lot of energy in that space.
And I believe that that was an inevitability.
There's a future there that is inevitable.
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And I believe that if I leaned into that, whether in my own company or if someone wasstupid enough to hire me to lead theirs, I thought no matter what happens, that is
probably a good thing to be an expert in.
And it turned out that I wrote a hypothesis and Cassette sort of started me.
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Cause as I talked about it, there was a large steel company in Korea that gave me and gaveme gave Cassette an exclusive right to engineer and distribute their system.
And so all of a sudden I had to build a company to back that up.
You know, I got a consulting contract from the moonshot lab at Google, like all kinds ofthings happen to make me start the company.
(15:13):
and that's, that's the real story.
That's incredible.
For listeners who aren't necessarily familiar with cassette, can you explain what it is?
Sure.
Cassette is essentially a design build modular housing company.
And so we started the business because of my experience at Matt and my perspective onproduct at scale.
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We started with the intention of rolling out first a multifamily stackable product andsystem.
And we did, we went all the way through engineering.
But as our timing, we literally launched a month before COVID.
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So there's always a reason when you have a startup that there's some massive emergency,but that was part of the formation and shaping of our early business.
And in many respects, it was a blessing because it slowed us.
We were shot out of a cannon.
the industry was just throwing all kinds of money at just stupid ideas that were that theywere just stupid, risky, you know, and sure, if somebody had thrown $10 million into
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cassette, we probably would have burned through every penny and made a bunch of mistakesas it is, I think with our 800,000 a friend and family capital, we probably made still
every single mistake.
We just burn less money.
We found our product market fit after the pandemic in single family homes.
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And that's where we are today.
So that's what we launched.
It does not mean we will not go back when our bonding capacity is high enough when we havethat sort of cash flow to then go back and do multifamily the way we always wanted to.
But right now there's a massive need and with the fires in LA, all of a sudden,
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There's a moment in your life where you realize why you've started a business.
And now I think I know.
Hmm.
Interesting to me is most of the majority of the women I've already interviewed for thisseries to date, there is a connection to service and community, I feel that most of them
(17:37):
have brought forward that in speaking with male counterparts, I don't often hear thatbring forward as this is the reason this is my this is my
you know, Northern Star that I'm pointing towards is this service to filling a need for acommunity.
I don't often hear that as the first reason they bring forward or even the second orthird.
(18:00):
It's a side effect that they bring forward.
And so it's been kind of interesting to hear folks bring that forward.
I'm not judging one way or another.
just, think it's an interesting thread that has come forward and I'm grateful andappreciative that people are thinking about the communities and
how these businesses can solve challenges in the community.
(18:24):
Yeah.
I mean, look, shout out for good men in the world.
I, I, I am fortunate right now to have partners in the business that share that same valueand passion.
And it's why they were attracted to what we're doing.
And I can't really speak to the gender difference there.
Cause I, don't know if it's true and I don't, you know, I, I, um, I know that culturallywe're brought up differently than boys are.
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know we're, you know, we have different permission to let our soft side show.
think a lot of men have permission to look strong in business and money.
We sort of need to have a little bit of what the other one has.
I think there's a middle ground to both that would be, you know, that is useful.
And you brought up a good point of it's not necessarily that they're not thinking thatway.
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And that isn't a reason.
It's just they've been sort of culturally taught to present a certain way as that is seenvaluable.
And that's a very good point.
Look, not, I'm not, I mean, there's a lot of assholes, so I'm not, I'm not defending thatat all.
And the problem with the gender issues in our industry is assholes that are guys aregenerally celebrated and succeed, you know, like there's a reward structure there for
(19:42):
being an asshole, but not, not so much for women.
And so
because if you're kind of an asshole of a woman, you get called differently.
it's it's yeah, it's very.
Yeah, I know.
Same.
like, I might have been called those things at one point in my career.
And But moving on from that.
(20:03):
Yeah.
So what are some things you think?
have shifted and changed for women in this industry for the better, for more equity, formore representation?
What are some things you've seen?
Yeah, I I think you named one of them, which is I think there are, I don't know if this isnew, there are a lot of women starting their own construction businesses.
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Unfortunately, a lot of that is because they're hitting biases and inability to grow wherethey find themselves.
But we're in a moment in time where that's possible for women.
What I'll say has not changed.
And that we struggled with and that women struggle with is, and this is something just forusers who are for viewers or listeners who are thinking about starting their own business
(20:56):
is that the biases that exist in the company you work don't go away when you try to getclients and they don't go away when you try to get financing and bonding.
And actually they're much harder and the obstacles.
You know, venture capital is not a big construction like word, but that's like, it's abarometer for the investment community.
(21:20):
Venture capital investments into solo women founded companies are 2 % of what they are formen founders.
it is capital is a massive obstacle.
And all I would advise is women who want to go in that way that you figure the capitalside out before you.
leave here, especially getting loans like business lines, credit, get them while you havea W-2 income.
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Nobody will give them to you.
If you have a board member who is a rich guy, rich white guy, bring them to the bank andyou will get one.
what I was just going to point out.
I've heard from other, because I know lots of different people circulating in the venturecapital world, that bringing a white male ally to those meetings can increase your chances
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of that being a successful financial meeting over your going solo.
a lot of people are like, but I shouldn't have to.
I'm like, yes, I shouldn't.
You shouldn't.
But you do and we're operating in reality, not fantasy land of what we should or shouldn'thave to do.
We're operating in what we must do to get the thing done.
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And the more we can leverage those great relationships with allies to achieve that endgoal and then just knock it out of the park creates a backflow for the next generation to
not have to do that.
So yes, you might not have to do it.
You shouldn't have to do it.
Hopefully the next generation doesn't have to because of the work we're doing now.
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That's kind of how I feel about it.
Yeah.
And on the positive of what I've seen in this also sort of relates to people startingtheir own companies.
But I think on the positive of the evolution, what I've seen for women and you're, you'resort of living proof because you're in this innovation role is that some of what you,
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there's something about how women have had to navigate the world in terms of pleasingeverybody, making,
sort of making peace in really complicated people environments.
Women have a lot of those skills, because we've been forced to.
And the emerging sector of prefabrication is creating a need for people who know how to dothose things.
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And what I'm seeing, especially in the modular world, is most of the people who arecelebrated now in our industry are actually women.
Like most of the most...
for most people in modular and the most expert are people who can actually think in like10, in 10 dimensions.
Like what does the factory need?
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What does everybody need to be successful?
Cause it's not, if it's just about me, this is a fail.
The only way this works is if everyone's successful and very few men have had to everthink that way.
Women always have had to think that way.
Yeah, that's a good point.
I also just realized as you were talking about all the amazing women, a lot of a lot ofthe ones that I look to, and I don't know them necessarily personally, just follow their
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careers are actually part of this prefabrication industrialized construction may likethey're part of that world and I look to what they say and advice that they have and what
they're doing.
I find it very exciting.
I do think it's the future of construction and
I get excited about it as somebody who my day job I sit in research and development andsome of the most exciting projects that come through are things that lean in that
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direction.
And we could go into that conversation, I think in a whole separate episode of thebenefits of prefabrication and how that can help not just cost and all the, you know,
those things, but just the people who are installing and making them safe and bringingabout more control.
I can move on from that soapbox because it's a long one.
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We should record with a couple other amazing women.
you were talking about the opportunity for women in the new version of labor, I think, andI think that you're right.
think in many respects, what's happening with industrialization is to the extent we canmanufacture things, prefabricate things, the job becomes safer and it requires less.
(25:50):
I know you're a bodybuilder, but it requires less physical strength.
So, and that's not just about women, it's just about making it something that just createsmore opportunities for people to just skill up on the job.
That also, you know, I don't know if you've heard me say this, but others have, is thatalso creates opportunity for differently abled bodies to show up in this industry.
(26:12):
If you're in a manufacturing environment, you can create spaces where that's possible.
I think of disabled veterans who desperately need to be included in these spaces and theswitch to civilian life and finding a job, it can be very challenging.
There's an opportunity there to leverage some incredibly
skilled individuals and bring them forward.
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Very much so, and I'm glad you shouted out to veterans because the thing that a lot of theconstruction industry, I don't say lack, it's, what's a nice way of saying this, as an
industry, we've been a little bit weaker on discipline than the manufacturing industry.
And there's one thing about veterans, they understand discipline.
(26:59):
They sure do.
They sure do.
I'm married to one.
So sometimes he's not so disciplined, but
We won't talk about cleaning up the dishes, but.
No, yeah, or the laundry, like we'll just, but when it comes to certain things and he candial in and I've seen some of the mechanics I used to have on when I worked in civil
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construction were veterans and they brought with them the mechanic skills from themilitary, which often were kind of this MacGyver mechanic need because they're in the
middle of spaces where they don't have access to everything and
bringing them into the industry as mobile mechanics, as mechanics, they were the best onesbecause they could figure it out, they could get it done, they would ask for what they
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needed.
And if I couldn't get it to them, because that did happen sometimes, they still kind offigured it out.
And I loved them and appreciated them for that skill set.
And I'm glad that the military has started to change the certifications that they dobecause they weren't transferable to civilian life.
previously.
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That was one of the challenges and they've started some of my husband's stuff wasn'ttransferable to civilian life because it wasn't recognized and they're starting to change
a lot of that.
So the bridge isn't I have to go get all these new certifications and training.
It just comes with me into civilian world and it's acceptable.
So I love that for them and we have a plethora of folks to leverage there for thisindustry who can have great successful careers.
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Absolutely.
to your point, it's not all about being disabled.
It's people who don't have, again, don't have a straight line career.
Their resume doesn't work and they can't figure out a place in our typical hiring process.
And I know a lot of people in that category.
I do too.
the other thing that always comes to mind with me for manufacturing environments is,specifically for women actually, is this opportunity for access to the work.
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And I say that because women primarily are still responsible for the care of children andother family members in the society.
And that is also shifting.
However, it's still the case.
If we have them going to one single manufacturing site that's close to their home, theycan leverage childcare easier.
(29:28):
If you're asking them to get up and go to a job site by 6 a.m., one, have you foundchildcare that opens at 4 a.m.?
Because it's really hard to find and very expensive.
And then two, you're far away from your children in the event of an emergency.
And that's a challenge that that world wasn't built for women to show up in because
It wasn't built for primary caregivers.
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Right, wasn't built for primary caregivers.
And can we shift that?
I think we can.
The thing I want to say is I think is an issue still and forget prefab like in just thetraditional construction industry.
I think one of the big, one of the big and sad things that I remember, and I hope it'schanged in the last six or seven years, but it probably hasn't is that young women that
(30:19):
were of childbearing age at the company I worked for, I was trying to
do some anonymous surveying to understand their needs.
Because I was an executive, I wanted to be an advocate to get some policies changed andmake it possible.
And part of it is there's a labor shortage, right?
If you want to draw a bunch of women into the workforce, like let's create.
(30:42):
And so it was also like a company strategy I was trying to figure out.
wasn't just, it was how do we actually get more people?
And I had this hypothesis.
And what was very sad to me,
is these women were afraid to tell me they didn't want to talk about it.
They didn't want to be seen anywhere different.
(31:03):
They saw it as a disadvantage to themselves that their fellow project manager sees them assomeone who might get pregnant and need time off or sees them as, you know, so they were
so cagey around it.
And I thought, is a really, I bet this culture exists in other companies.
(31:24):
Yeah.
Do you feel that way?
to be put on the choice jobs, right?
Matt Construction was doing museum, like we'll do the Academy Award Museum, the BrodyMuseum, like freaking amazing projects.
They didn't want to be put on the lesser, the projects people didn't get as excited about.
And if that project was a four-year project or a massive $300 million project, they wereafraid that if anyone knew they wanted a family, they wouldn't be put on that project.
(31:51):
And I think that...
That is probably to me the saddest thing that's happening for women in construction.
Yeah, I just watched, it made me think, just watched a, I don't remember what it was, tobe honest.
I watched something online, of course, that's what we consume.
(32:11):
Brooke Shields was talking about her experience.
Yeah, she was openly discussing her having, know, leveraging IVF.
for like seven, eight rounds to conceive and not having children until a certain stage oflife.
And the other women in the room, and I forget their names, were also discussing that whenwomen do give birth and have a child, that they automatically have like a 6 % decrease in
(32:44):
pay because of the gap of having to take that time off and how that affects their careerbecause of the way it's viewed.
So a little bit kind of what you're taught, the fear is...
is there I think because of the reality of the situation that women have experienced.
And I love as we have more, not just women owners, but people who are cognizant and awarein this business of this situation, they intentionally make an effort to create equity and
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space for people to start families, have families be flexible.
I actually learned this, I don't know how to say it.
I learned to exercise
my owning that for myself and being comfortable with that from a male ally, it wasn't fromactually a woman in this industry.
He would say, have to go walk, I'm walking my children to school this morning.
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No, I cannot make that meeting.
And the fact that he and he, he did it in a way that made me feel comfortable that I couldsee those things too.
Yeah, I think that's a comment and a shout out for leaders is that I didn't realize untilI became a CEO of a very tiny company that people, people just, you have to watch
(34:01):
everything you say and do.
If you send an email at 10 o'clock at night, you're signaling to everybody that they needto be working at 10 o'clock at night.
Like there's a,
There is a modeling of behavior that is super important.
And I think what you just said is really important, men and women, is that if you are in aposition of leadership, people take their cues from you and your behavior.
(34:27):
Mm hmm.
I 100 % agree.
100 % agree.
One of the leaders at my current company, I remember hopping on a call with him.
I forget it was like 6am my time.
And he the first thing he asked me was, you know, how are you doing?
I was like, well, it's been a rough week.
Like I've had to start at like 5am every day to accommodate, you know, East Coast folksand folks in other countries for meetings that we've been having.
(34:54):
And he's like,
Well, you should hold that time out on your calendar and only do that like one day a weekbecause you need to make sure you're holding your boundaries.
And I was kind of taken aback because I wasn't expecting that to be the first thing wetalked about.
And I was like, OK.
Is that a positive for you?
mean, that was a...
(35:15):
was good because I have a habit of not holding those boundaries and working 12 hours a daybecause I just get very passionate and into what I do.
But the fact is, is he was intentionally bringing forward of like, hold your boundaries,girl, like take that, you know, do it.
We all do it.
You get to do it.
I support you doing it.
And in that moment, it just felt really good to be reminded.
(35:38):
You know?
you know, as you get older, I think what happens is you, at least if you grow up, I wasblessed to grow up with parents who just said, you can do anything.
and I really believe, I think me and I have two brothers, I think we really just believedwe could do anything.
There was never, we didn't have some of the same fears that a lot of people, I think, justgrow up with about, nervousness about their ability to do that.
(36:03):
I think we just call it arrogance or, you
Israeli cockiness or something.
It was just like we kind of grew up with that sense.
And I forgot where I was going with that again, because I'm having a senior moment.
I I would love for more generations to be brought up with that though, of just this blindoptimism of I can do this and I'm going to knock down all the different barriers.
(36:26):
I'm going to partner with everybody I need to.
remembered where I was going.
was actually, it was the fact that I, there was a moment in my life where I realized thatI have limits.
And I, and I reached those limits naturally, not because of what people told me I couldn'tdo, but everybody has limits.
And sometimes we don't know where our boundaries are until we, until we break.
(36:50):
And when you break, you realize that whatever you want yourself to be doesn't matter.
because you do have limits and you just found them.
And so you draw your boundaries accordingly.
But sometimes when you're younger, like you don't, you actually don't know where they arebecause you actually think you can do everything and go for it.
(37:10):
Like that's okay.
Like go for it.
You will hit them.
I promise.
Yeah, and you will learn something from that and you will survive and you will move on.
Yeah, and it's nobody else's fault, right?
It's like, you can't blame somebody else because you got hurt.
You just like, notice what caused that.
What do I need to do to protect myself from hurting myself that way again?
(37:34):
you know, but everyone has something different.
I seem to have to learn some lessons more than once and that's okay too.
Thinking back to your first year in construction specifically, is there any piece ofadvice you would give yourself?
(37:55):
give my younger self, give myself that year.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, was fortunate enough that I worked for a level five leader, Paul Matt, who gave thatadvice.
And it was within a few months of being on the job, I made a massive mistake.
(38:18):
And what I thought was a massive mistake, you know, because I was not used to failing andI was that sort of like high performer.
And it was with, I can't name the name, but it was with a very famous
client that everybody would know in a very wealthy billionaire.
And I was like, fuck, I'm fired.
(38:41):
And so I went in to Paul's office.
I was like, here's what's happening.
Here's what I did.
his, organization's like, client's really angry.
And Paul just smiled at me.
And he said, kid, if you're not making mistakes, you're not doing anything.
(39:01):
Just don't make the same mistake twice.
And what are you gonna do differently?
And I look at the culture of the company that he built, and I now understand why you had22 year olds building high rises and hitting on time, on budget.
Like he knew how to give people enough latitude to make mistakes because that's not theworst thing.
(39:27):
But not to make a mistake the size that would tank the company, but you have to create aculture for yourself and other people where mistakes are just part of, they're just part
of the journey.
And if you can't, especially in something as hard and complicated as construction, if youcan't let that process happen naturally, you will not get better.
(39:50):
You will not learn.
So I was fortunate enough to have somebody give my younger self the advice in my firstyear.
love that.
I also really love that he was such that higher level leader that just was able to notblow up react all the things that you would typically assume would happen when a large
(40:14):
mistake happens because I my experiences have been different in different stages of mycareer with different leaders.
And I, I think that's incredible, an incredible lesson we can
you know, pay forward to others.
mistakes are going to happen.
so I and I do this with my foster kiddos, actually, some of the first moments that theyare in our home, it's challenging, they're adapting, they're, they're traumatized, or all
(40:40):
these things.
And, and I level with them, depending on their age and how this message is portrayed.
But I we at some point, we have the discussion of shit's gonna get fucked up, you're gonnado things wrong.
I'm okay with that.
We can deal with it.
The one thing that you cannot do is lie about it.
(41:02):
Everything else is solvable.
Everything else is fixable.
Everything else we can talk through.
Just be honest.
That's it.
I'll add a layer to that, my own opinion or my own experience is you can lie about it, butthe truth always comes out.
The truth always comes out.
(41:25):
so, you know, and bad news doesn't age well.
So let's just get through it.
And sometimes the aging makes it 10 times worse.
And yeah, it's just not, yeah.
That's a rule in construction too.
Like if you have bad news for a client, it does not age well.
Just the only way through it is through it.
(41:49):
Like you're having the conversation.
And that's for kiddos and adults alike, that's an interesting lesson that we often learnin different stages of our career.
I think we learn differently and it pivots.
I love that part about this industry is when you have those amazing leaders like Paul,get, this is so something somebody has said to me.
(42:13):
about a year and a half ago and I continue to live this or try it, I'm trying to embracethis.
He's like, fuck up at full speed.
Hahaha
And it's now one of my favorite phrases.
a little too much like Facebook, doesn't it?
Isn't there a month?
Yeah, go fast and break things.
I think that's there.
don't know.
He doesn't like what isn't read and do any of that kind of stuff.
(42:34):
He's very kind of old quote unquote old school construction.
And when he said it to me, I kind of sat back and I was like, you're I get what themessage is in the middle of that.
It's not just like fuck up to fuck up.
It's fuck up, learn, move on, pivot, move forward.
and I love that sentiment.
And that's kind of similar to sort of the sentiment I think of what we're trying to say ismistakes are to happen.
(42:59):
Moose through them.
Go.
Don't dwell.
it's more about the get up fast part.
Like dust yourself off, don't look bad.
Serena Williams, I wish I could remember what exactly she said, but somebody asked herabout sort of the psychology of like when you're down a set and a half, you know, you're
playing cool shit.
(43:20):
How is it that all of a sudden you just, you know, and she talks about how it's just aboutthe point you're playing right now.
And the difference between champions and everybody else is that they have the ability tolike let go of the moment that just happened and be in the moment that's about to happen.
That is very, I'm not good at that.
(43:41):
I'm still trying to get good at that.
But I think that is the difference between success and failure.
Yeah, that also just gets me excited.
I know that's kind of a weird thing to say about failure, but those learning moments andhaving been an Olympic lifting coach and CrossFit coach, that is what gets me excited
(44:04):
about coaching people is watching that moment where they get back up and you're like,that's it right there.
lots of, yeah, if you're in sports, it's easier to like, everyone remembers when they werekid on a skateboard, trying to do a jump or trying to do something on their little BMX
bike or whatever.
Everyone remembers that like when you're a kid, you just keep, you try it, you try it, youfall, you try it, you fall.
(44:26):
And you're just excited to go back and get the bike and try it again until you hit it.
I would go downhill skier.
Like I did crazy, crazy shit.
So.
And it's like, you're just excited to get back up on the chairlift so you can get back tothat spot and try the jump again until you land it.
And, I think why have we been so beat down in other things that we're embarrassed when wefail.
(44:48):
We're not embarrassed when we fall as a kid skiing at all.
We're just thinking, damn, I can do it.
I can do it.
I can do, you know, but we, we've built this.
We unfortunately just have to now unlearn all of this humiliation and
bullshit that we put into ourselves.
Yeah, but that's the part that I love though, that we can unlearn it.
(45:11):
I'm living proof that in my 40s, went out and I said, know what?
Failure is just information.
I'm going to try this.
Absolutely, it's just information.
It's true.
Yeah, that's, yeah, I love it.
some point, I'll land the jump.
(45:31):
And maybe someday I'll get over my fear of failure of having my own company again and doit.
It's okay to fear it, don't get over it.
It's okay to fear it and it's okay to do things that you're afraid of.
And it's okay to not do things that you're afraid of.
It doesn't matter.
It's okay to feel fear.
Yeah, that's also a really good point is that fear doesn't disappear.
(45:53):
Fear is a part of.
fear is a feeling and don't shut it down.
It's part of your human experience.
Absolutely.
Mike, my I have a better up coach.
I don't know if you've heard of the better up platform.
He he talks through sort of the the existence of fear is part of our reptilian brain.
It's a natural part of our functioning.
And it's if you constantly are pushing it away and seeing as negative, that's what it'sgoing to be for you.
(46:18):
But if you can embrace it as just part of your functioning, there's actually good reasonsit exists and to embrace it.
There's great reasons that it exists.
If you resist it, it also doesn't go away.
It actually just ends up somewhere else in your body.
Like let it move through its pipes.
(46:39):
Let that, what is it, a neurotransmitter, just let those chemicals move through theirpipe.
They'll be out of you in a few minutes, but feel them, be intimate with them.
I just went to a camp about fear.
That's why I'm so passionate about this.
It was taught, I told you I love skiing.
It's taught by shout out to Kristin Ulmer.
(47:01):
She was for 12 years, the most famous woman, big mountain skier on the planet.
She was the first famous big mountain skier when I was growing up in the ladies in all theWarren Miller movies.
And she says it's not about not having fear.
It's about becoming intimate with your fear.
(47:21):
And
letting it have its experience in you.
And the resistance is more suffering than the fear itself.
All right, Kristen, that was my best paraphrase from one weekend.
Hopefully I got it right.
Yeah.
also, it takes time to develop, I think, that shift of mindset too.
(47:44):
So it's not like you're going to hear this and flip it overnight.
Like, it's a practice.
It's a journey.
Enjoy the journey, not the end result all the time.
And that's something I'm trying to embrace is there's no like end point.
It's a journey.
speaking of shout outs.
Are there other women in this industry who you've learned from and mentored by or who youjust in general think are bad ass that deserve shout outs?
(48:15):
There are so many.
I know you asked me just before we hopped on and I panicked because I wish I had spent aweek.
I mean, there's so many.
I'll say in general, what I've found in my life, just globally, the women who, forwhatever reason, the women who I have found myself most inspired by, lifted up by, are the
(48:39):
women who've had the most suffering.
And that's generally been black women.
Maya Angelou is probably my favorite.
Maya Angelou, Toni Morrison, like women who like came through unbelievable things to justbecome these beacons of light.
and I, my sister-in-law likes to quote this native American proverb that says, do you knowhow to solve a really big problem?
(49:10):
The answer is you get a bigger problem.
Ha.
Hm.
I read some of these women and I just think, holy cow, I'm gonna tear up.
So that's like on the big picture.
I think in this industry, like just like who's badass.
(49:31):
There's a woman that I met at the beginning of my modular journey when I went to a ModXconference in Japan.
She was at the time from Lindbeck in Scandinavia.
Her name was Helena Lidelow
Hmm.
I think who works for VBC in Poland now.
She came to the U S for a minute.
yeah, she's bad ass.
she, she is the real deal.
(49:52):
She's the real deal.
She also is good at like talking about it, sharing, but on the technical.
Yeah.
hesitate.
She won't hesitate to share.
She's an open book and I have love.
Yeah.
for anyone who wants to sort of enter this industry.
(50:15):
anybody
we
(50:37):
highlighting
I'll throw out a couple more, and these are not women, sorry, but they're founders that Ithink have inspired me.
it's funny that I quote books because I don't read, like reading is really difficult forme.
I do audio books, it's difficult because I have some problem with my eyes when I'mreading.
But I read the founding story of Nike, it's called Shoe Dog.
There's something I really resonate with about just the passion and scrappiness aroundwhatever it takes.
That was an amazing book.
And then Steve Jobs, you know, he's a complex figure, but I would say if you've not seenthe last graduation address he gave before he passed away, it's really meaningful and I
(51:02):
watch it once a year.
Those are great.
I'll have to look those up and tag them because I love different options of ways to getinspiration and to nod to people.
I wish we had more time.
There's so many amazing things to talk about.
I think there's a potential future opportunity for us to collaborate around Prefabspecifically.
(51:23):
yeah, but just thank you for taking the time and I really appreciate you showing up todayand joining me today.
Thank you for inviting me.
And thank you, whoever's listening.
Thank you for tuning in to today's episode of The Construction Cafe.
(51:46):
We hope you found our conversation as inspiring as your next big project.
Remember, you can dive deeper into the resources and topics we discuss by connecting withus on LinkedIn and Instagram.
Just search for The Construction Cafe.
Don't miss out on future episodes.
Be sure to follow us on Spotify, Podbean, and Apple Podcasts to keep the conversationgoing.
(52:06):
If you're passionate about the construction industry and have a story to share, we'd loveto hear from you.
Visit our website at the constructioncafe.com and drop us a note.
Let's keep building better together.
Welcome to the Construction Cafe, where the buzz of the construction industry meets thewarmth of a friendly conversation.
I'm your host, Tristen Magallanes.
Join me at our virtual cafe as we explore the foundations of construction culture, sip oncutting edge concepts, and amplify the unspoken voices in our industry.
So grab a cup of your favorite beverage, pull up a seat, and let's build more than juststructures, let's build connections.
(00:33):
This is the Construction Cafe.
Hey everyone, welcome back to the Construction Cafe.
We are so excited to continue on our Women in Construction Week series for you.
(00:54):
I'm not sure what episode this is going to be, but we're probably up into the 15th episodeof Just for Women in Construction Week.
And super excited today to be joined by Daphna Kaplan.
Thank you so much for joining me today.
Daphna, tell me a little bit about your journey and role in construction and who you arein construction.
(01:18):
my goodness.
I I should leave it to everybody else to tell me who I am in construction.
construction or I guess my job, I put a lot into it, but it's never, it's never the wholeperson, right?
So, who I am in construction, that's for, guess, history to determine.
(01:41):
and I came to construction quite late, actually.
I worked for about 10 years in the consumer product sector first in my twenties, rightafter college.
I was in PR and marketing and ultimately in global branding.
So I had an international career that was more, you know, really focused on tech or thetech community.
(02:02):
I was fortunate enough to through just a weird series of life events to end up, takingthose skills to a modern, a small modern architecture firm in Los Angeles.
Sometime about 10 years in.
And I fell in love with modern architecture and ultimately sort of my, I regressed to mychildhood self that loved building with Legos.
(02:28):
And I found that really where my place was, was in building things.
It's just what I loved.
so your initial education and background had nothing to do with construction then?
I mean, not directly.
had nothing to do with construction and it had nothing to do with marketing.
You would be familiar, I saw from your profile you have foster kids?
(02:50):
Is that?
Yes, I am a foster parent, yep.
So my education, my undergrad was social work and I was an independent living trainer forkids in foster care and delinquent and from 16 to 22 years old.
That was actually my training.
(03:10):
That was our last, our last foster kiddo was 15 to 18.
So that exact age.
and I loved it and it's still a big part of my life and love.
I don't have foster kids of my own, but.
There's so many ways to show up for foster kiddos, though.
I think people miss that it's not just about being a foster parent.
(03:32):
You don't have to do that.
You can be a CASA.
You can be a volunteer.
You could be an educator.
There's so many opportunities and very much needed.
Yeah, I think it's just the beautiful thing for me about having that education and thatearly experience was just the awareness that it brings.
(03:53):
You know, it was in a fairly small town.
I was in Eugene, Oregon.
And when you're in a town that small, you walk on the street and sometimes you actuallysee your clients and you sometimes see people.
And it made me hyper aware of what a high percentage of people.
are struggling in the world and to not make assumptions when somebody behaves badly, youknow, to always wonder, you know, what are they dealing with?
(04:23):
Well, and I even think it's hard for me to term it as that quote unquote bad behavior.
There's so much more to every story than that in my opinion.
it's really approaching things with empathy as best as possible.
I understand we all also bring our own stuff to that every time.
(04:43):
But that's incredible that that was the first part of your career path, you know, andthat's, and this is part of
know, bringing forward for women in construction because there is opportunity to pivot andshift into the construction industry.
And I didn't, I did start in the industry, but I simultaneously studied psychology andanthropology.
(05:05):
So I also have an interesting sort of intersection with how I got here.
And I think that's highlighting that there's opportunity that you don't have to start offin a certain way to get here.
You can get here in different ways.
And you're a great example of that.
Yeah.
And I, not just me, I'll tell you my, my, earliest experience, like in a constructioncompany was I, I, after I went, worked for that architecture firm, I mean, that was
(05:35):
educational.
was interesting.
Culturally.
And I love design.
That's a big part of, that was also a big part of my product years prior.
I worked with guys that graduated from art center and product design was a really bigdeal.
And that's a big part of what reaches me.
But I really found my people.
(05:55):
I worked for Matt Construction, which is a large local contractor in the SouthernCalifornia area.
And yeah, I don't even remember what we were just talking about.
Okay, well it just the connection of sort of how like that bridge into construction.
Yeah
I know what I was gonna say.
So, you know, before I started actually doing my own projects on the side, sort of on asmall scale, because at Matt, I was hired actually to again, to do brand like brand, I
(06:24):
ended up opening an office in the Bay Area because I had business savvy and I was helpinggrow the business.
And meantime, I went back and I actually did go to business school because I've beensuccessful at business, in spite of the fact there was so much I didn't know.
Mm.
Yeah.
from a board member standpoint.
So I went back to get all of those skills while I was at Matt.
(06:47):
And what I was going to say to the not straight line career was that I found that some ofthe best project managers at Matt Construction were from the film industry.
Because they knew how to run multiple things at once.
It was usually the people that had a very diverse background that had a perspective forbig projects that was really useful.
(07:11):
Absolutely.
cannot, thinking of film, I just think, you know, I only know what I know and I'm thinkingof the things you see on TV about the difficult personalities in that industry to try to
help manage and shift around and move.
not, mean, so the people skills involved in the management of things is a high need inthis industry.
(07:35):
And so bringing that over from, I think I was speaking to somebody who used to be a nurseand she has since,
created her own construction company.
I'm like, I have to imagine patient skills and dealing with patients and doctors and allthose different fun personalities in there has helped you become incredibly successful in
this business.
And so I love that people are bringing forward the skill transferability, if that's thecorrect word, over into this industry.
(08:04):
It's incredible.
I love it.
I think it's...
it's back to the social work background.
It's back to your psychology courses.
It's what I will say, and I'll say a little shout out to Paul Matt, who he has sincepassed away, but who founded Matt Construction.
What that company was so well known for was working with big personalities like RenzoPiano and Moshe Safdie and every Starkitect you can imagine we worked with.
(08:33):
and it was not dissimilar to the film industry in that respect to having a lot of thingsto manage.
So Paul Matt did say to me, I will never forget, he said, I can teach anyone to build, wehire for the soft skills.
Mm, that's important because I think it's often the other way around.
(08:54):
People look at a resume and here's the check off of lit, check list of things that youneed to be able to perform and produce.
But it's a swing and the miss in a lot of respects when it comes to the quote unquote softskills.
don't.
And let me give a shout out to woman in construction.
Julie Whiteca was a project manager at Matt who actually got her start in scheduling.
(09:20):
She just had hard skills in scheduling and project management.
Awesome You've gone on to found your own company.
Yeah, don't hold that against me.
No, I'm not holding against you at all.
I find it admirable from my seat just because I've hesitated.
(09:45):
People have asked me, why don't you go make your own company, do a startup?
I recognize where I'm great and where I'm not.
And so that's been my hesitation.
Tell me what made you decide, like I'm gonna go all in and I'm gonna open my own companyin this industry.
think those are answers that change as you get older and look back on your life.
(10:10):
A lot of people have asked me about different decision points and said, well, why have youdone that?
Or why did you do that?
And when it's something that was recent, you have one answer.
And then when it's something that's 10 years ago, you look back and think, actually, Ithink this is why did it.
But I can say it was a moment in my life where
(10:36):
I left map construction and I had had this crooked line career.
and I didn't know what was next.
I mean, we left on friendly terms and I still consulted for them for a while, but I gavemyself a moment and some of that was just a moment in my life where I had gone through
(10:59):
some very hard things that made me just say life is precious and I am not spending fiveminutes doing something that is not entirely what I want to do or what's meaningful to me.
And the things that were really needed at Matt at that moment, I mean, we had grown from,I don't know, 120 million a year to 500 million a year in like three years, right?
(11:24):
It was just like, and what was needed was really operational growth.
I I told Steve Matt after Paul died, said, I don't think you actually need marketing.
And I was very up for the operational growth and leading it or being part of that.
But sometimes in this, it's not just about women, women or biases against women inconstruction.
(11:49):
think there's also bias, role biases.
Like if there's a perception somehow because somebody had a marketing title or somebodyhad an HR title that in spite of the fact that they're really smart and actually have like
hidden down to the park on everything you've ever given them, you just can't.
It's, I recognized it was not mine to do in that place.
(12:12):
interesting.
going to fight for it and I can give my opinions, but at some point.
I realized, I even said, you're paying me too much not to take my advice.
If you want somebody to just do the things you want them to do, you could probably findsomebody at half my salary.
(12:36):
And I love this company and I don't want to be toxic.
And so I knew it was time for me.
Like you will always outgrow your role.
The hope is, I think, well, for some, I always hope that for myself.
Yeah, you often outgrow your role and it's not anybody's fault, know, and maybe, it'sjust, it just is.
(12:57):
the only people, I remember thinking the only, it's, there, whoever owns the company andtook the risk and put the blood, sweat and tears in, like it is their prerogative to make
the decisions.
and I thought if I have so many opinions about things,
the only way for that to happen.
(13:19):
it was this question of do I, would I actually bet on myself?
I was not gung ho to start a company and I never wanted to.
think like you, knew my limits and I also like, liked having my time off and I workedhard, play hard.
don't.
And as one venture capitalist said to me after business school, he said, there's wayeasier ways to make money than starting a company like that.
(13:43):
You certainly don't do it for that reason.
so yeah, what made the decision?
It was just a moment in life where I, I, I decided to bet on myself.
I leaned into the things that were interesting to me.
And I leaned heavily into industrialized construction, every form of prefab, partlybecause I had a background in product manufacturing design.
(14:10):
Like that was something I had a lot of history experience with, but also opinions about.
And I saw what was happening, all of the like money and the rise and fall of Katara.
Like I saw there was a lot of energy in that space.
And I believe that that was an inevitability.
There's a future there that is inevitable.
(14:30):
And I believe that if I leaned into that, whether in my own company or if someone wasstupid enough to hire me to lead theirs, I thought no matter what happens, that is
probably a good thing to be an expert in.
And it turned out that I wrote a hypothesis and Cassette sort of started me.
(14:50):
Cause as I talked about it, there was a large steel company in Korea that gave me and gaveme gave Cassette an exclusive right to engineer and distribute their system.
And so all of a sudden I had to build a company to back that up.
You know, I got a consulting contract from the moonshot lab at Google, like all kinds ofthings happen to make me start the company.
(15:13):
and that's, that's the real story.
That's incredible.
For listeners who aren't necessarily familiar with cassette, can you explain what it is?
Sure.
Cassette is essentially a design build modular housing company.
And so we started the business because of my experience at Matt and my perspective onproduct at scale.
(15:41):
We started with the intention of rolling out first a multifamily stackable product andsystem.
And we did, we went all the way through engineering.
But as our timing, we literally launched a month before COVID.
(16:02):
So there's always a reason when you have a startup that there's some massive emergency,but that was part of the formation and shaping of our early business.
And in many respects, it was a blessing because it slowed us.
We were shot out of a cannon.
the industry was just throwing all kinds of money at just stupid ideas that were that theywere just stupid, risky, you know, and sure, if somebody had thrown $10 million into
(16:34):
cassette, we probably would have burned through every penny and made a bunch of mistakesas it is, I think with our 800,000 a friend and family capital, we probably made still
every single mistake.
We just burn less money.
We found our product market fit after the pandemic in single family homes.
(16:56):
And that's where we are today.
So that's what we launched.
It does not mean we will not go back when our bonding capacity is high enough when we havethat sort of cash flow to then go back and do multifamily the way we always wanted to.
But right now there's a massive need and with the fires in LA, all of a sudden,
(17:16):
There's a moment in your life where you realize why you've started a business.
And now I think I know.
Hmm.
Interesting to me is most of the majority of the women I've already interviewed for thisseries to date, there is a connection to service and community, I feel that most of them
(17:37):
have brought forward that in speaking with male counterparts, I don't often hear thatbring forward as this is the reason this is my this is my
you know, Northern Star that I'm pointing towards is this service to filling a need for acommunity.
I don't often hear that as the first reason they bring forward or even the second orthird.
(18:00):
It's a side effect that they bring forward.
And so it's been kind of interesting to hear folks bring that forward.
I'm not judging one way or another.
just, think it's an interesting thread that has come forward and I'm grateful andappreciative that people are thinking about the communities and
how these businesses can solve challenges in the community.
(18:24):
Yeah.
I mean, look, shout out for good men in the world.
I, I, I am fortunate right now to have partners in the business that share that same valueand passion.
And it's why they were attracted to what we're doing.
And I can't really speak to the gender difference there.
Cause I, don't know if it's true and I don't, you know, I, I, um, I know that culturallywe're brought up differently than boys are.
(18:48):
know we're, you know, we have different permission to let our soft side show.
think a lot of men have permission to look strong in business and money.
We sort of need to have a little bit of what the other one has.
I think there's a middle ground to both that would be, you know, that is useful.
And you brought up a good point of it's not necessarily that they're not thinking thatway.
(19:14):
And that isn't a reason.
It's just they've been sort of culturally taught to present a certain way as that is seenvaluable.
And that's a very good point.
Look, not, I'm not, I mean, there's a lot of assholes, so I'm not, I'm not defending thatat all.
And the problem with the gender issues in our industry is assholes that are guys aregenerally celebrated and succeed, you know, like there's a reward structure there for
(19:42):
being an asshole, but not, not so much for women.
And so
because if you're kind of an asshole of a woman, you get called differently.
it's it's yeah, it's very.
Yeah, I know.
Same.
like, I might have been called those things at one point in my career.
And But moving on from that.
(20:03):
Yeah.
So what are some things you think?
have shifted and changed for women in this industry for the better, for more equity, formore representation?
What are some things you've seen?
Yeah, I I think you named one of them, which is I think there are, I don't know if this isnew, there are a lot of women starting their own construction businesses.
(20:23):
Unfortunately, a lot of that is because they're hitting biases and inability to grow wherethey find themselves.
But we're in a moment in time where that's possible for women.
What I'll say has not changed.
And that we struggled with and that women struggle with is, and this is something just forusers who are for viewers or listeners who are thinking about starting their own business
(20:56):
is that the biases that exist in the company you work don't go away when you try to getclients and they don't go away when you try to get financing and bonding.
And actually they're much harder and the obstacles.
You know, venture capital is not a big construction like word, but that's like, it's abarometer for the investment community.
(21:20):
Venture capital investments into solo women founded companies are 2 % of what they are formen founders.
it is capital is a massive obstacle.
And all I would advise is women who want to go in that way that you figure the capitalside out before you.
leave here, especially getting loans like business lines, credit, get them while you havea W-2 income.
(21:44):
Nobody will give them to you.
If you have a board member who is a rich guy, rich white guy, bring them to the bank andyou will get one.
what I was just going to point out.
I've heard from other, because I know lots of different people circulating in the venturecapital world, that bringing a white male ally to those meetings can increase your chances
(22:11):
of that being a successful financial meeting over your going solo.
a lot of people are like, but I shouldn't have to.
I'm like, yes, I shouldn't.
You shouldn't.
But you do and we're operating in reality, not fantasy land of what we should or shouldn'thave to do.
We're operating in what we must do to get the thing done.
(22:32):
And the more we can leverage those great relationships with allies to achieve that endgoal and then just knock it out of the park creates a backflow for the next generation to
not have to do that.
So yes, you might not have to do it.
You shouldn't have to do it.
Hopefully the next generation doesn't have to because of the work we're doing now.
(22:53):
That's kind of how I feel about it.
Yeah.
And on the positive of what I've seen in this also sort of relates to people startingtheir own companies.
But I think on the positive of the evolution, what I've seen for women and you're, you'resort of living proof because you're in this innovation role is that some of what you,
(23:14):
there's something about how women have had to navigate the world in terms of pleasingeverybody, making,
sort of making peace in really complicated people environments.
Women have a lot of those skills, because we've been forced to.
And the emerging sector of prefabrication is creating a need for people who know how to dothose things.
(23:41):
And what I'm seeing, especially in the modular world, is most of the people who arecelebrated now in our industry are actually women.
Like most of the most...
for most people in modular and the most expert are people who can actually think in like10, in 10 dimensions.
Like what does the factory need?
(24:01):
What does everybody need to be successful?
Cause it's not, if it's just about me, this is a fail.
The only way this works is if everyone's successful and very few men have had to everthink that way.
Women always have had to think that way.
Yeah, that's a good point.
I also just realized as you were talking about all the amazing women, a lot of a lot ofthe ones that I look to, and I don't know them necessarily personally, just follow their
(24:28):
careers are actually part of this prefabrication industrialized construction may likethey're part of that world and I look to what they say and advice that they have and what
they're doing.
I find it very exciting.
I do think it's the future of construction and
I get excited about it as somebody who my day job I sit in research and development andsome of the most exciting projects that come through are things that lean in that
(24:56):
direction.
And we could go into that conversation, I think in a whole separate episode of thebenefits of prefabrication and how that can help not just cost and all the, you know,
those things, but just the people who are installing and making them safe and bringingabout more control.
I can move on from that soapbox because it's a long one.
(25:20):
We should record with a couple other amazing women.
you were talking about the opportunity for women in the new version of labor, I think, andI think that you're right.
think in many respects, what's happening with industrialization is to the extent we canmanufacture things, prefabricate things, the job becomes safer and it requires less.
(25:50):
I know you're a bodybuilder, but it requires less physical strength.
So, and that's not just about women, it's just about making it something that just createsmore opportunities for people to just skill up on the job.
That also, you know, I don't know if you've heard me say this, but others have, is thatalso creates opportunity for differently abled bodies to show up in this industry.
(26:12):
If you're in a manufacturing environment, you can create spaces where that's possible.
I think of disabled veterans who desperately need to be included in these spaces and theswitch to civilian life and finding a job, it can be very challenging.
There's an opportunity there to leverage some incredibly
skilled individuals and bring them forward.
(26:35):
Very much so, and I'm glad you shouted out to veterans because the thing that a lot of theconstruction industry, I don't say lack, it's, what's a nice way of saying this, as an
industry, we've been a little bit weaker on discipline than the manufacturing industry.
And there's one thing about veterans, they understand discipline.
(26:59):
They sure do.
They sure do.
I'm married to one.
So sometimes he's not so disciplined, but
We won't talk about cleaning up the dishes, but.
No, yeah, or the laundry, like we'll just, but when it comes to certain things and he candial in and I've seen some of the mechanics I used to have on when I worked in civil
(27:20):
construction were veterans and they brought with them the mechanic skills from themilitary, which often were kind of this MacGyver mechanic need because they're in the
middle of spaces where they don't have access to everything and
bringing them into the industry as mobile mechanics, as mechanics, they were the best onesbecause they could figure it out, they could get it done, they would ask for what they
(27:48):
needed.
And if I couldn't get it to them, because that did happen sometimes, they still kind offigured it out.
And I loved them and appreciated them for that skill set.
And I'm glad that the military has started to change the certifications that they dobecause they weren't transferable to civilian life.
previously.
(28:08):
That was one of the challenges and they've started some of my husband's stuff wasn'ttransferable to civilian life because it wasn't recognized and they're starting to change
a lot of that.
So the bridge isn't I have to go get all these new certifications and training.
It just comes with me into civilian world and it's acceptable.
So I love that for them and we have a plethora of folks to leverage there for thisindustry who can have great successful careers.
(28:35):
Absolutely.
to your point, it's not all about being disabled.
It's people who don't have, again, don't have a straight line career.
Their resume doesn't work and they can't figure out a place in our typical hiring process.
And I know a lot of people in that category.
I do too.
the other thing that always comes to mind with me for manufacturing environments is,specifically for women actually, is this opportunity for access to the work.
(29:07):
And I say that because women primarily are still responsible for the care of children andother family members in the society.
And that is also shifting.
However, it's still the case.
If we have them going to one single manufacturing site that's close to their home, theycan leverage childcare easier.
(29:28):
If you're asking them to get up and go to a job site by 6 a.m., one, have you foundchildcare that opens at 4 a.m.?
Because it's really hard to find and very expensive.
And then two, you're far away from your children in the event of an emergency.
And that's a challenge that that world wasn't built for women to show up in because
It wasn't built for primary caregivers.
(29:50):
Right, wasn't built for primary caregivers.
And can we shift that?
I think we can.
The thing I want to say is I think is an issue still and forget prefab like in just thetraditional construction industry.
I think one of the big, one of the big and sad things that I remember, and I hope it'schanged in the last six or seven years, but it probably hasn't is that young women that
(30:19):
were of childbearing age at the company I worked for, I was trying to
do some anonymous surveying to understand their needs.
Because I was an executive, I wanted to be an advocate to get some policies changed andmake it possible.
And part of it is there's a labor shortage, right?
If you want to draw a bunch of women into the workforce, like let's create.
(30:42):
And so it was also like a company strategy I was trying to figure out.
wasn't just, it was how do we actually get more people?
And I had this hypothesis.
And what was very sad to me,
is these women were afraid to tell me they didn't want to talk about it.
They didn't want to be seen anywhere different.
(31:03):
They saw it as a disadvantage to themselves that their fellow project manager sees them assomeone who might get pregnant and need time off or sees them as, you know, so they were
so cagey around it.
And I thought, is a really, I bet this culture exists in other companies.
(31:24):
Yeah.
Do you feel that way?
to be put on the choice jobs, right?
Matt Construction was doing museum, like we'll do the Academy Award Museum, the BrodyMuseum, like freaking amazing projects.
They didn't want to be put on the lesser, the projects people didn't get as excited about.
And if that project was a four-year project or a massive $300 million project, they wereafraid that if anyone knew they wanted a family, they wouldn't be put on that project.
(31:51):
And I think that...
That is probably to me the saddest thing that's happening for women in construction.
Yeah, I just watched, it made me think, just watched a, I don't remember what it was, tobe honest.
I watched something online, of course, that's what we consume.
(32:11):
Brooke Shields was talking about her experience.
Yeah, she was openly discussing her having, know, leveraging IVF.
for like seven, eight rounds to conceive and not having children until a certain stage oflife.
And the other women in the room, and I forget their names, were also discussing that whenwomen do give birth and have a child, that they automatically have like a 6 % decrease in
(32:44):
pay because of the gap of having to take that time off and how that affects their careerbecause of the way it's viewed.
So a little bit kind of what you're taught, the fear is...
is there I think because of the reality of the situation that women have experienced.
And I love as we have more, not just women owners, but people who are cognizant and awarein this business of this situation, they intentionally make an effort to create equity and
(33:11):
space for people to start families, have families be flexible.
I actually learned this, I don't know how to say it.
I learned to exercise
my owning that for myself and being comfortable with that from a male ally, it wasn't fromactually a woman in this industry.
He would say, have to go walk, I'm walking my children to school this morning.
(33:34):
No, I cannot make that meeting.
And the fact that he and he, he did it in a way that made me feel comfortable that I couldsee those things too.
Yeah, I think that's a comment and a shout out for leaders is that I didn't realize untilI became a CEO of a very tiny company that people, people just, you have to watch
(34:01):
everything you say and do.
If you send an email at 10 o'clock at night, you're signaling to everybody that they needto be working at 10 o'clock at night.
Like there's a,
There is a modeling of behavior that is super important.
And I think what you just said is really important, men and women, is that if you are in aposition of leadership, people take their cues from you and your behavior.
(34:27):
Mm hmm.
I 100 % agree.
100 % agree.
One of the leaders at my current company, I remember hopping on a call with him.
I forget it was like 6am my time.
And he the first thing he asked me was, you know, how are you doing?
I was like, well, it's been a rough week.
Like I've had to start at like 5am every day to accommodate, you know, East Coast folksand folks in other countries for meetings that we've been having.
(34:54):
And he's like,
Well, you should hold that time out on your calendar and only do that like one day a weekbecause you need to make sure you're holding your boundaries.
And I was kind of taken aback because I wasn't expecting that to be the first thing wetalked about.
And I was like, OK.
Is that a positive for you?
mean, that was a...
(35:15):
was good because I have a habit of not holding those boundaries and working 12 hours a daybecause I just get very passionate and into what I do.
But the fact is, is he was intentionally bringing forward of like, hold your boundaries,girl, like take that, you know, do it.
We all do it.
You get to do it.
I support you doing it.
And in that moment, it just felt really good to be reminded.
(35:38):
You know?
you know, as you get older, I think what happens is you, at least if you grow up, I wasblessed to grow up with parents who just said, you can do anything.
and I really believe, I think me and I have two brothers, I think we really just believedwe could do anything.
There was never, we didn't have some of the same fears that a lot of people, I think, justgrow up with about, nervousness about their ability to do that.
(36:03):
I think we just call it arrogance or, you
Israeli cockiness or something.
It was just like we kind of grew up with that sense.
And I forgot where I was going with that again, because I'm having a senior moment.
I I would love for more generations to be brought up with that though, of just this blindoptimism of I can do this and I'm going to knock down all the different barriers.
(36:26):
I'm going to partner with everybody I need to.
remembered where I was going.
was actually, it was the fact that I, there was a moment in my life where I realized thatI have limits.
And I, and I reached those limits naturally, not because of what people told me I couldn'tdo, but everybody has limits.
And sometimes we don't know where our boundaries are until we, until we break.
(36:50):
And when you break, you realize that whatever you want yourself to be doesn't matter.
because you do have limits and you just found them.
And so you draw your boundaries accordingly.
But sometimes when you're younger, like you don't, you actually don't know where they arebecause you actually think you can do everything and go for it.
(37:10):
Like that's okay.
Like go for it.
You will hit them.
I promise.
Yeah, and you will learn something from that and you will survive and you will move on.
Yeah, and it's nobody else's fault, right?
It's like, you can't blame somebody else because you got hurt.
You just like, notice what caused that.
What do I need to do to protect myself from hurting myself that way again?
(37:34):
you know, but everyone has something different.
I seem to have to learn some lessons more than once and that's okay too.
Thinking back to your first year in construction specifically, is there any piece ofadvice you would give yourself?
(37:55):
give my younger self, give myself that year.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, was fortunate enough that I worked for a level five leader, Paul Matt, who gave thatadvice.
And it was within a few months of being on the job, I made a massive mistake.
(38:18):
And what I thought was a massive mistake, you know, because I was not used to failing andI was that sort of like high performer.
And it was with, I can't name the name, but it was with a very famous
client that everybody would know in a very wealthy billionaire.
And I was like, fuck, I'm fired.
(38:41):
And so I went in to Paul's office.
I was like, here's what's happening.
Here's what I did.
his, organization's like, client's really angry.
And Paul just smiled at me.
And he said, kid, if you're not making mistakes, you're not doing anything.
(39:01):
Just don't make the same mistake twice.
And what are you gonna do differently?
And I look at the culture of the company that he built, and I now understand why you had22 year olds building high rises and hitting on time, on budget.
Like he knew how to give people enough latitude to make mistakes because that's not theworst thing.
(39:27):
But not to make a mistake the size that would tank the company, but you have to create aculture for yourself and other people where mistakes are just part of, they're just part
of the journey.
And if you can't, especially in something as hard and complicated as construction, if youcan't let that process happen naturally, you will not get better.
(39:50):
You will not learn.
So I was fortunate enough to have somebody give my younger self the advice in my firstyear.
love that.
I also really love that he was such that higher level leader that just was able to notblow up react all the things that you would typically assume would happen when a large
(40:14):
mistake happens because I my experiences have been different in different stages of mycareer with different leaders.
And I, I think that's incredible, an incredible lesson we can
you know, pay forward to others.
mistakes are going to happen.
so I and I do this with my foster kiddos, actually, some of the first moments that theyare in our home, it's challenging, they're adapting, they're, they're traumatized, or all
(40:40):
these things.
And, and I level with them, depending on their age and how this message is portrayed.
But I we at some point, we have the discussion of shit's gonna get fucked up, you're gonnado things wrong.
I'm okay with that.
We can deal with it.
The one thing that you cannot do is lie about it.
(41:02):
Everything else is solvable.
Everything else is fixable.
Everything else we can talk through.
Just be honest.
That's it.
I'll add a layer to that, my own opinion or my own experience is you can lie about it, butthe truth always comes out.
The truth always comes out.
(41:25):
so, you know, and bad news doesn't age well.
So let's just get through it.
And sometimes the aging makes it 10 times worse.
And yeah, it's just not, yeah.
That's a rule in construction too.
Like if you have bad news for a client, it does not age well.
Just the only way through it is through it.
(41:49):
Like you're having the conversation.
And that's for kiddos and adults alike, that's an interesting lesson that we often learnin different stages of our career.
I think we learn differently and it pivots.
I love that part about this industry is when you have those amazing leaders like Paul,get, this is so something somebody has said to me.
(42:13):
about a year and a half ago and I continue to live this or try it, I'm trying to embracethis.
He's like, fuck up at full speed.
Hahaha
And it's now one of my favorite phrases.
a little too much like Facebook, doesn't it?
Isn't there a month?
Yeah, go fast and break things.
I think that's there.
don't know.
He doesn't like what isn't read and do any of that kind of stuff.
(42:34):
He's very kind of old quote unquote old school construction.
And when he said it to me, I kind of sat back and I was like, you're I get what themessage is in the middle of that.
It's not just like fuck up to fuck up.
It's fuck up, learn, move on, pivot, move forward.
and I love that sentiment.
And that's kind of similar to sort of the sentiment I think of what we're trying to say ismistakes are to happen.
(42:59):
Moose through them.
Go.
Don't dwell.
it's more about the get up fast part.
Like dust yourself off, don't look bad.
Serena Williams, I wish I could remember what exactly she said, but somebody asked herabout sort of the psychology of like when you're down a set and a half, you know, you're
playing cool shit.
(43:20):
How is it that all of a sudden you just, you know, and she talks about how it's just aboutthe point you're playing right now.
And the difference between champions and everybody else is that they have the ability tolike let go of the moment that just happened and be in the moment that's about to happen.
That is very, I'm not good at that.
(43:41):
I'm still trying to get good at that.
But I think that is the difference between success and failure.
Yeah, that also just gets me excited.
I know that's kind of a weird thing to say about failure, but those learning moments andhaving been an Olympic lifting coach and CrossFit coach, that is what gets me excited
(44:04):
about coaching people is watching that moment where they get back up and you're like,that's it right there.
lots of, yeah, if you're in sports, it's easier to like, everyone remembers when they werekid on a skateboard, trying to do a jump or trying to do something on their little BMX
bike or whatever.
Everyone remembers that like when you're a kid, you just keep, you try it, you try it, youfall, you try it, you fall.
(44:26):
And you're just excited to go back and get the bike and try it again until you hit it.
I would go downhill skier.
Like I did crazy, crazy shit.
So.
And it's like, you're just excited to get back up on the chairlift so you can get back tothat spot and try the jump again until you land it.
And, I think why have we been so beat down in other things that we're embarrassed when wefail.
(44:48):
We're not embarrassed when we fall as a kid skiing at all.
We're just thinking, damn, I can do it.
I can do it.
I can do, you know, but we, we've built this.
We unfortunately just have to now unlearn all of this humiliation and
bullshit that we put into ourselves.
Yeah, but that's the part that I love though, that we can unlearn it.
(45:11):
I'm living proof that in my 40s, went out and I said, know what?
Failure is just information.
I'm going to try this.
Absolutely, it's just information.
It's true.
Yeah, that's, yeah, I love it.
some point, I'll land the jump.
(45:31):
And maybe someday I'll get over my fear of failure of having my own company again and doit.
It's okay to fear it, don't get over it.
It's okay to fear it and it's okay to do things that you're afraid of.
And it's okay to not do things that you're afraid of.
It doesn't matter.
It's okay to feel fear.
Yeah, that's also a really good point is that fear doesn't disappear.
(45:53):
Fear is a part of.
fear is a feeling and don't shut it down.
It's part of your human experience.
Absolutely.
Mike, my I have a better up coach.
I don't know if you've heard of the better up platform.
He he talks through sort of the the existence of fear is part of our reptilian brain.
It's a natural part of our functioning.
And it's if you constantly are pushing it away and seeing as negative, that's what it'sgoing to be for you.
(46:18):
But if you can embrace it as just part of your functioning, there's actually good reasonsit exists and to embrace it.
There's great reasons that it exists.
If you resist it, it also doesn't go away.
It actually just ends up somewhere else in your body.
Like let it move through its pipes.
(46:39):
Let that, what is it, a neurotransmitter, just let those chemicals move through theirpipe.
They'll be out of you in a few minutes, but feel them, be intimate with them.
I just went to a camp about fear.
That's why I'm so passionate about this.
It was taught, I told you I love skiing.
It's taught by shout out to Kristin Ulmer.
(47:01):
She was for 12 years, the most famous woman, big mountain skier on the planet.
She was the first famous big mountain skier when I was growing up in the ladies in all theWarren Miller movies.
And she says it's not about not having fear.
It's about becoming intimate with your fear.
(47:21):
And
letting it have its experience in you.
And the resistance is more suffering than the fear itself.
All right, Kristen, that was my best paraphrase from one weekend.
Hopefully I got it right.
Yeah.
also, it takes time to develop, I think, that shift of mindset too.
(47:44):
So it's not like you're going to hear this and flip it overnight.
Like, it's a practice.
It's a journey.
Enjoy the journey, not the end result all the time.
And that's something I'm trying to embrace is there's no like end point.
It's a journey.
speaking of shout outs.
Are there other women in this industry who you've learned from and mentored by or who youjust in general think are bad ass that deserve shout outs?
(48:15):
There are so many.
I know you asked me just before we hopped on and I panicked because I wish I had spent aweek.
I mean, there's so many.
I'll say in general, what I've found in my life, just globally, the women who, forwhatever reason, the women who I have found myself most inspired by, lifted up by, are the
(48:39):
women who've had the most suffering.
And that's generally been black women.
Maya Angelou is probably my favorite.
Maya Angelou, Toni Morrison, like women who like came through unbelievable things to justbecome these beacons of light.
and I, my sister-in-law likes to quote this native American proverb that says, do you knowhow to solve a really big problem?
(49:10):
The answer is you get a bigger problem.
Ha.
Hm.
I read some of these women and I just think, holy cow, I'm gonna tear up.
So that's like on the big picture.
I think in this industry, like just like who's badass.
(49:31):
There's a woman that I met at the beginning of my modular journey when I went to a ModXconference in Japan.
She was at the time from Lindbeck in Scandinavia.
Her name was Helena Lidelow
Hmm.
I think who works for VBC in Poland now.
She came to the U S for a minute.
yeah, she's bad ass.
she, she is the real deal.
(49:52):
She's the real deal.
She also is good at like talking about it, sharing, but on the technical.
Yeah.
hesitate.
She won't hesitate to share.
She's an open book and I have love.
Yeah.
for anyone who wants to sort of enter this industry.
(50:15):
anybody
we
(50:37):
highlighting
I'll throw out a couple more, and these are not women, sorry, but they're founders that Ithink have inspired me.
it's funny that I quote books because I don't read, like reading is really difficult forme.
I do audio books, it's difficult because I have some problem with my eyes when I'mreading.
But I read the founding story of Nike, it's called Shoe Dog.
There's something I really resonate with about just the passion and scrappiness aroundwhatever it takes.
That was an amazing book.
And then Steve Jobs, you know, he's a complex figure, but I would say if you've not seenthe last graduation address he gave before he passed away, it's really meaningful and I
(51:02):
watch it once a year.
Those are great.
I'll have to look those up and tag them because I love different options of ways to getinspiration and to nod to people.
I wish we had more time.
There's so many amazing things to talk about.
I think there's a potential future opportunity for us to collaborate around Prefabspecifically.
(51:23):
yeah, but just thank you for taking the time and I really appreciate you showing up todayand joining me today.
Thank you for inviting me.
And thank you, whoever's listening.
Thank you for tuning in to today's episode of The Construction Cafe.
(51:46):
We hope you found our conversation as inspiring as your next big project.
Remember, you can dive deeper into the resources and topics we discuss by connecting withus on LinkedIn and Instagram.
Just search for The Construction Cafe.
Don't miss out on future episodes.
Be sure to follow us on Spotify, Podbean, and Apple Podcasts to keep the conversationgoing.
(52:06):
If you're passionate about the construction industry and have a story to share, we'd loveto hear from you.
Visit our website at the constructioncafe.com and drop us a note.
Let's keep building better together.
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