March 5, 2025 • 33 mins
PhD candidate Simi Aluko joins The Construction Café to discuss equity, innovation, and legacy in construction. From her structural engineering roots to rethinking buildability and workforce well-being, she shares insights on navigating biases, making construction more inclusive, and why real change must align with industry values. Tune in for a powerful conversation on bridging academia, research, and real-world impact in the built environment. #WICWEEK2025
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(00:05):
Welcome to the Construction Cafe, where the buzz of the construction industry meets thewarmth of a friendly conversation.
I'm your host, Tristen Magallanes.
Join me at our virtual cafe as we explore the foundations of construction culture, sip oncutting edge concepts, and amplify the unspoken voices in our industry.
So grab a cup of your favorite beverage, pull up a seat, and let's build more than juststructures, let's build connections.
(00:33):
This is the Construction Cafe.
Hello, everyone.
Welcome back to the Construction Cafe.
We are continuing our Women in Construction Week series celebrating all sorts of amazingwomen in the not just construction, AEC industry as a whole.
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And today I am joined by Simi Aluko.
Simi, welcome to the show.
Really excited to have you.
Thank you for having me.
really excited to be here.
Why don't you tell the audience, just a couple things about yourself.
What are you currently doing in the industry?
What are you passionate about?
All that fun stuff.
(01:20):
I am currently doing my PhD at Stanford in a program called Sustainable Design andConstruction.
And I'm sure what I do in the industry is I think about how we can make the projects thatwe deliver, the entire process of delivering projects a little bit more efficient and
easier for the people that are doing the work.
That's kind of how I would describe it broadly.
(01:40):
Does that touch on investigating all the way down to the user experience of the building?
Or is it focused more on the constructability and the design of it for people who arebuilding it, or both?
I think both are important.
The work I'm doing now for my PhD is to really think about more like buildability, whichis a little bit, I guess, in academic terms, defined thinner than constructability, which
(02:04):
can include like weather, can include all sorts of extenuating circumstances.
But I really think about what does it mean to truly design a house that is pleasant for ahuman being to build?
But because my background is in design, and I don't think that is something that we get alot, I think, in design schools, where we think about how to make a design work for a
user.
But in construction, as you know, we have multiple stakeholders.
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And the builders are a big part of the process.
And their health, and their well-being, and their enjoyment of work all should be takeninto consideration.
Well, I totally agree with that.
I mean, I think I've stood on a couple of soap boxes in my career of it's important todeliver functional, beautiful buildings for people who are going to live in them, but the
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people who are putting them together are pretty darn important too.
And their overused injuries that they have, their experience of work is equally important.
And I think we have enough knowledge now to...
to sort of start approaching that.
So that's really interesting work you're doing.
I am going to be one of the nerds that probably reads your entire PhD thesis becausethat's what I do.
(03:08):
I think research work for construction is incredibly important.
And it's often sort of shoved aside as a waste of money because it's quote unquote, notproductive revenue generating work, but sort of how do we improve if we're not doing the
testing research prototyping and failing?
(03:30):
Mm-hmm.
I definitely agree.
tell me a little bit about your journey into this, this industry, because I don't thinkit's just in my experience.
It's not something that women typically fall into.
How did you arrive at construction?
I actually...
I took kind of a traditional path into a non-traditional destination, if that makes sense.
(03:52):
So my background is...
My bachelor's in civil engineering and I did a lot of structural engineering work.
Very, know, math, physics, Excel.
You know, know everything that kind of goes into structural engineering.
I did some work with Whiting Turner as an undergrad.
And I also did work with a general contractor, a German general contractor based inNigeria, where I'm from as well.
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And I enjoyed both processes, but something in me just felt like, in as much as I respect,
the skill that it takes to build a home and the experience it takes.
I just felt like I could see the building industry for what it could be and I didn't wantto kind of spend the rest of my career just doing RFIs or like solving problems that I had
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seen in the previous project.
And this was really like after a very short amount of time working in construction.
It kind of hit me straight in my face once I got into the industry.
And I felt from the very beginning that there just had to be more that people in theindustry could do to make the lives of everyone better and more productive.
(04:59):
So I started my masters at Stanford, and that's where I really put words to all of thesethoughts.
I really was able to start thinking about what it means to productize building.
And that's really where I started getting into construction research.
And then during my PhD, I've also worked with a few different like startups, people,organizations that are really trying to change the way construction looks in the world.
(05:22):
And so that's basically my path.
But what happened is I started off with structural engineering, which is more traditional.
And it ended up kind of pushing me to see that.
I guess as a structural engineer, you're always thinking about efficiency.
You're always thinking about how to make things better.
That mindset applied to the construction space made me think that it has to be some
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some things we could do to improve not just the quality of life of the actual people inthe field doing work, but also the quality of life of everyone along the kind of like
value chain.
Like the whole chain of, yeah, I mean, I even think of the folks who are producing thematerials that we end up building with.
And that to me, the entire life cycle of anything construction related is where I tend tothink of now that's big, right?
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So we have to focus, typically I then I'm like, okay, now I need to focus on one smallarea because trying to...
approach the whole chain sometimes can be a little bit overwhelming for me.
I've had a couple other folks start in sort of the structural engineer study andbackground, and then they've gone on to these different spaces.
So think that's kind of important to highlight of this opportunity that just because youstudy one specific, I guess I would say lane, doesn't mean you have to stay in that lane.
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You can expand
and do other things with that.
I think that's a great opportunity for people coming into the industry and also people whoare considering changing to the industry.
I wish a lot of this had been around when I was doing my master's, because I might haveshifted and pivoted.
But you never know.
I could still go back and do another one.
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my goodness.
I think about.
I had started my PhD and then chose to come back in the industry and work.
And I think about going back and there are so many incredible opportunities now and itfeels a lot more approachable to do a PhD with different research tools now that it makes
me kind of excited.
So we'll see.
We'll see.
For now, I love just supporting those who are doing that work like yourself.
(07:31):
Are there any big challenges that you faced specifically around being a woman in thisindustry?
Yeah, I have faced...
Let me take you back to the beginning, when the challenges started, and then I'll tell youhow they evolved over time.
So, like many people, my identity is very intersectional.
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I'm not just a woman, right?
I'm coming into construction with so many different identities that don't always work wellwith the current culture of construction.
I remember as an undergrad, when I went to my very first kind of like,
civil engineering, construction-y career fair, I remember just not being able to explainwhy my conversations with most of the recruiters there wouldn't go past like five or six
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minutes.
Now I would look around at my classmates and I started to notice that there was a certaintype of classmate who was having longer conversations.
Those classmates tended to be the men.
That's kind of where I started to see that, something is like something about who I am inthis industry is not immediately accepted.
It's not gelling well.
That's the best way I can colloquially put it.
(08:37):
Right.
It's like, you know, when you meet someone and you guys just hit it off, I didn't havethat with anyone in part, I think, because I was carrying so many different identities.
Maybe I wasn't like, you know, the perfect personality fit for the recruiters.
Also in part, because I started to learn many of the recruiters and construction.
Obviously, I don't have data to back this up.
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We're like men on some sports team, typically the football team in college, and they had acertain type of interest and experience that was just completely out of my world.
And I would talk about like doing a theater minor, or I would talk about being interestedin like global development.
And I wouldn't really be able, and then they would try and maybe talk to me about sportsand I couldn't carry the conversation.
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At the time, I didn't really understand.
And you know, American sports are not the same as sports everywhere in the world.
So was like, I've not really got into baseball.
I've not really got into football.
I like I can't.
Nor should you have to do any of those things to be part of this.
Trust me, I still have conversations and meetings where it's all about golf and I'm like,no.
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So yeah.
Exactly.
So that was, think, the first time I really realized outside of a classroom thatconstruction doesn't look like what it looked like in my classroom.
In my classroom, had, gosh, I want to say off the top of my head, were like, it was asmall program, so let's say 12 students in civil engineering.
(10:04):
And I want to say five or six were girls, right?
So it wasn't like a terribly like...
unbalanced situation.
was maybe slightly one, like maybe one more boy or exactly the same.
don't, I don't remember.
But it was fine in class.
But recruiting, I think was the first time I was like something here.
Like the industry does not match what it looks like in my classroom.
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And then I remember I went back home to Nigeria for a summer to do work on theconstruction site.
I told you about the German company.
We were building a 12, I would say 12 story reinforced concrete.
building, like was an office building.
And I remember walking on, I remember when I had the interview, the person who wasrecruiting me said he really liked my application.
(10:54):
And then he invited like one of the only high kind of high ranking female engineers in thecompany.
And he said, I want you to know that like you can do basically just a pep talk, right?
And I want you to know that you can break any, any bounds or ceilings put on you.
Look at her.
She's doing a great job.
One of me was like, why would he have to go through the pain of saying this?
(11:14):
Again, I was a little bit younger.
I hadn't really seen what was going on in the industry.
But then I walked onto site on the first day and I was like, this is the reason why,because I am the only girl here that's an engineer.
And that's where the challenge has started.
It's not, fortunately, guess generationally, people haven't been bold enough to sayanything rude.
But it's things like, why can't I hold a conversation with my colleagues?
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Why is it that when decisions are being made, I might not be in the room?
Why is it that it sounds like everyone else has had a conversation and now I'm just kindof catching up?
It's hard to do your work when you're not getting information at the same rate in the sameway.
everyone else is getting in.
Those are the things that I felt like were tough.
Construction is a very relational industry as you have definitely observed and not beingable to build relationships to me has been like one of the harder things because without
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relationships you don't get information without information you don't get anything done inthis space.
Yeah, I think a couple things you've pointed to is this sort of, well, with the recruitingspecifically, that's that unconscious bias that folks have of recruiting, like, similarity
bias of recruiting the same, like those that look like you.
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probably not a lot of that is, I'm...
I like to think of there's good in people and I'm assuming that they just don't realizewhat they're doing, right?
They're just hiring the same people that have the same interests as them But being awareof it and interrupting it is something that I think is starting to happen in a lot of
spaces.
And it's really important, I think, that construction companies who do actively go out andrecruit
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hear this message that they need to have one, recruiters should be trained enough andaware enough to create that equitable space for any person to have the opportunity to come
into the company.
And also, I think it's important that they have different representation recruiterspresent at these events.
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Maybe you send me and I'm no, I'm not an engineer and I'm not directly on a project site.
but I can still be a representation that there are other people, not just cisgender whitemen in this industry.
Because I think that helps to make those connections.
Funny, my husband was a recruiter in the military for several years at the last part ofhis service.
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And he tells me stories all the time and he's always joking.
He's like, I can come in and recruit anybody for anything, for any reason.
And I'm like, what?
He goes, yeah, there's like this whole playbook on how to do this.
And I'm like, OK.
But he was very specifically trained on how to recruit.
Whereas I think people in construction, they're like, just send the project manager that'sin the area that used to go to that school and have them do it with not a lot of
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active training on how to do that in an equitable way.
So that's really important.
somebody who's been in the industry a while myself, I'm still often the only female in theroom.
So your experience of walking on a job site and being the only woman still happens oftenand frequently.
I hope we can continue to change that together.
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specifically talking about equity, when it comes to equity for women in this industry,what kind of changes do you think are most needed
I'm going to answer your question a little bit of a roundabout way, that's okay.
no, go for it.
Yeah, I like to think of myself as a person of first principles.
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So I'm going to tell you about the change.
Well, first I'm going to tell you about my theory of change.
Why do I think that change is going to work?
I think that it is hard.
Our industry is a legacy industry.
I'll put it that way.
really value having done something for a long time.
We really value the ideas of the immovable, the proven, and I respect that.
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And that's one of the reasons why I came into the industry.
And I think for many people, we talk about change and equity and inclusion, and it feelslike it's challenging the legacy of the industry.
But in a very fundamental way, I disagree, actually, that those two things are at odds.
think that this industry, like legacy themes are beautiful and majestic.
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And I think the beauty of legacy is that it's like people and culture, it can evolve, evenif ever so slightly, to sustain itself.
The beauty of a legacy is that it will continue on.
So for me, change in this industry works with continuing the legacy of what it means to doskilled trades, build high quality buildings, high performing buildings that serve real
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people well, that we can all be proud of today.
What I think it will take to change the construction industry is not just getting morewomen into
the classrooms, right?
Because I've now come up in spaces where really there are almost 50-50 splits in theclassrooms I've been in as a woman, yet that doesn't always translate into the field.
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I think on the one hand, some schools and some parts of the world have kind of got thatequity in terms of who gets into the classroom.
I think the next thing is like when the next big thing I see is not just how do we embracechange, but how do we define
the dignity in construction work.
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That's kind of deep and it's a layer, think, beneath what many people look at.
my interactions, my research, I think one thing I've noticed about the industry is thatdignity and legacy are very big to us.
And I think that until everyone in this space starts to realize that what feeds intolegacy, there will really be no change.
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Because right now I think many people see equity and inclusion as nice to have.
They're like, we just tack this on because the world likes it and the Gen Z's love to hearabout it.
And if we don't, then we're going to get canceled.
Whereas the way I see it and the way I think more people should see it is that inclusionand equity will continue to fuel this industry and make it great, make it the thing we are
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proud of.
Your observation about legacy, I think you put into words what sometimes I think, and youdid a much better job than I probably ever could.
One of the things that I often talk about when it's specifically robotics and differenttechnologies is that
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People are afraid of a lot of that and reject it in this industry.
And I truly think some of that comes from the fear of becoming no longer relevant or validbecause there's a sense of pride in the craft that they do.
There is, I took this thing, I created it, I built it with my own hands.
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There's immense amount of pride as there should be.
in those things.
I watched my dad as a carpenter.
I grew up with him.
I did projects.
And when I finished building my first picnic table, I was so proud of that.
And I've carried that on throughout my life.
And I think when we challenge that, and not intentionally, not overtly, but when there's achallenge to that, that is met with fear of becoming irrelevant.
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And I don't think people could introspect that
necessarily what's happening for them.
But I have to imagine if I put I empathetically try to put myself in their shoes.
Yeah, that's that's that's pretty scary.
And so the immediate rejection of is I would assume common.
So that to me ties into this concept of legacy, and helping to shift the thought processesof
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And I've seen this happen with some, you know, they talk about like, you know, your crustyold superintendent, like hard, hard shell exterior sort of person persona.
I've watched some of them embrace.
wanting to build something different and better and be part of that change because theyrecognize they want to leave a legacy of new generation in the industry that has adapted
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all of this stuff and does it better, faster, stronger.
And that mindset shift of, I don't have to repeat what I've always done.
I can do it differently and still be valuable and leave an amazing legacy.
That
think is growing.
And it's really beautiful to see when it does happen.
But there are still some spaces where it's just not happening.
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And it's really, I think, sometimes frustrating.
But it's a very important, I think, piece to keep in mind when you're approaching somebodyand asking them to change something.
I agree.
I agree completely.
think kind of on the back of that, my observation with some innovators in the constructionspace, just some, is that I think some of them, I say I think because this is a projection
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really, nobody has said this to my face, but what I'm reading off some people is that itseems like they want to change the industry, maybe they're like me and they're really
passionate about housing.
or they're really passionate about high-efficient, high-performing buildings, whateverhave you, they want to change something.
The end users are really what they care about.
And then the people in construction, I kind of like the thorn in their flesh.
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That is the...
mentality I'm seeing.
To be approached by an innovator who thinks they're the thorn in their flesh, thinkcreates some of this resistance.
Let me call it that.
Agreed.
I agree.
I think it's also, I may have discovered a better, and I use the word better a little bitbegrudgingly, but I may have discovered or figured out or designed a better way to do
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something, right?
More efficient, insert whatever word you want.
And I take it to somebody and they reject it.
I think a lot of folks' reaction to that is, well, you're just stupid.
You don't care.
You don't understand.
Like, they insert all these stories in that moment to elevate their own selves over.
And I don't think that they're missing the point.
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Like, these folks who've been building for 40, 50 years are the folks who have someincredible knowledge.
And if you sit back and just observe and watch and ask curious questions,
Whatever you think you've developed could actually be so much better if you did that.
casting them aside, at least that's how it feels.
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You're trying to cast them aside and shove them off and be like, I can do better.
And maybe you can do it better.
But I don't think casting somebody who's been doing something really well for 50 years isthe right thing to do either.
So yeah, that's a.
interesting observation.
And I
this back in though, in kind of my train of thought about why this is important to theworld of women in construction and equity.
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I think that if you look at people who do physical trades, right, if you look atmanufacturing, what people in construction fear has happened to their friends in those
industries, right?
Many of them were replaced by robots and machines, even though this was many, many yearsago.
I feel that
Part of the reason why people are, especially in the US at least, are holding on so tightto the legacy that they have now is that they do not see a future legacy that involves
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them.
And so anything relating to women in construction, equity, inclusion, it feels very antitheir daily bread, right?
Their bread and butter, which is really kind of what most human beings are indexing for.
And I feel that the best way to push towards equity and inclusion is not always to saythis is a nice thing to do for someone else.
(23:13):
Mm-hmm.
Cause when you think about your daily bread, someone else is not really kind of yourpersonal problem.
I do think that when we do things better for everyone, like if we make something moreacceptable physically, if we make something lighter so that anyone of any ability can
carry it, then you, the person of legacy might not strain your back as much.
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And I think that when we frame the world of women coming into construction, I thinksometimes we say this is the right thing to do.
balance the world, let's try to build the world with all of this guy instead of just halfof this guy, all of this I agree with.
And yet I think that when speaking to people who have a strong sense of pride and legacy,and I think it's really important to preserve that because pride and legacy are not built
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overnight.
I think that's something that is keeping this industry afoot.
The best way to be inclusive, in my opinion, is to include it in the interests of thelegacy that is construction.
That's tying it neatly with the bow.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And when you improve something for one subset of people, inevitably, it has benefits foreveryone.
(24:19):
It's sometimes just harder for them to see, I think.
And, you know, also accepting that some people aren't going to ever agree or aren't evergoing to jump on the train and want to change.
And sometimes you just have to accept that that is who they are and continue on anyway.
(24:41):
So are there any specific organizations you've seen do work in this space?
I mean, I know that you're doing it with your
PhD is Stanford doing things specifically with some of their research or their otherorganizations that you know of that are doing this kind of work?
There is a whole body of, I'll call it like ethnographic research in construction thatkind of looks into like, a lot of it looks at like worker safety.
(25:13):
And construction has been a little bit of a fight to access space for researchers that usesocial science methods.
Anyone that wants to kind of walk onto a site and talk to people has been really hard.
(25:37):
Yes,
I have a good friend who's doing work on what the factors are that affect people's abilityto work.
Right now, I'm actually taking this call from Nairobi, Kenya.
And interestingly, there are some real estate development, like investment funds that onlyinvest when there are outcomes for women in construction,
there's like DFI, there's some DFI money, there's some just like real estate developmentmoney, some aid money, but also just generally like people pouring into this space really
just want to see women working construction.
(25:58):
There's an organization here called Build Her.
They train women to really do kind of physical work.
Yeah, I've heard of them before in a couple different areas, I believe, build her.
So if you could think back to your early days when you first stepped onto the job site, isthere any piece of advice or something you would say to yourself on that day?
(26:23):
Yes, there's something.
And it's in response to some of the advice that I got.
I told you that growing up between my parents, my mom, my dad, and also some of the peoplearound me, have engineers in the family, doctors in the family.
So I was always told that I could do whatever I wanted.
And that definitely empowered me to get through some of the like awkward recruitingsituations or or the difficult.
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conversations I had to have in the construction space.
On top of that, what I would have told myself is that the very Gen Z thing to say the gameis the game, right?
Like the way the game is set up exists as it is.
And yes, you can break all of the glass ceilings, but like, kind of learn the system ofthe game and choose how you're going to play it.
(27:11):
I feel like a lot of
people give women advice that's like, can do anything you want, go for it.
And like, yes, go for it.
But like, learn the game, like sit down and listen.
I think that it's not as straightforward as you think.
I, for example, nowadays, the way I dress off construction sites is not the way I dress onconstruction sites.
(27:31):
The way I play the game is I try to be legible and credible.
And that's the advice I would give anyone.
Learn to be legible to the people you are trying to interact with, right?
if you're talking to someone that only speaks a certain language and there are onlycertain letters or consonants or vowels in their language, you might try to avoid English
words, for example, that have the letters that they don't understand.
(27:52):
That's like an exercise in making yourself legible.
Same thing in construction.
If people can't process, I think, every part of your identity, depending on how yourstomach sits with that, I think you don't have to present every single one all the time.
just for the sake of legibility, because that also feeds into credibility.
And so I've just learned that look like you can do whatever you want, but at least in thebeginning of your career, learn to play the game.
(28:19):
That's a really, yeah, it's a great piece of advice.
I, man, that like, I'm just, that I'm letting that sink in because it's, it's a hardthing, I think, for like a 20 something to swallow that piece of advice, right?
Like I'm gonna show up, I'm gonna be who I am and you have to accept me.
(28:41):
That's typical, I feel developmentally, that's typically how a lot of folks are in their20s.
I know I was.
And sometimes it's just not the game.
It's.
It's the same thing.
feel like I worked for an attorney for a while when I was younger.
Same thing with going into court.
Like if I walked into court and I dressed how I normally would dress or the bright, loudcolors, like it's typically I'm to be taken less seriously.
(29:06):
And that's right, wrong, or indifferent.
It is the state, like you said, it's the state of the game.
So learn to play the game really, really well.
It's I'm a chess player.
You set up your chessboard, you set up your game, you set up your plays.
It doesn't matter whether it's fair or right or wrong, learn to set your plays up really,really well.
(29:27):
And then you can checkmate.
So that's, it's a really great piece of advice.
Well, as we get closer to wrapping up, I want to give you an opportunity, if there are anywomen in this industry.
that you want to give a shout out to or thank or just call out for the work that they'redoing.
I would love it if you shared some of that.
(29:48):
Yes, of course, I would love to.
I worked with some amazing women at Modulus my first year out of grad school.
I worked with Cara, Eva Jen, Janet.
and Cassie.
There you go.
Five women.
They put me in kind of the aspirational construction world that was run by women.
(30:10):
And that definitely set me on a path right early on in my career to see I think what theworld could be because that's the world I was kind of born into.
So huge shout out to them.
As well as my many amazing professors from undergrad.
really I think shielded and guided me through some of the crazy of life as a young studentand so on.
(30:37):
Yeah, that modulus team, I know several of them and they're just how great it must havebeen to that be your first experience of an all female team that you were able to work
with in this industry and learn from So any anything other final thoughts you want to addbefore we wrap up?
I think I've said my big, like, you know, I came in with something to say and I'm leavingempty as is.
(31:01):
I think maybe one final remark about women in the construction space is actually let meuse this opportunity to tie up our last point of conversation with a bow.
I would say that in as much as I have said that you need to learn to play the game,playing the game and being yourself are not mutually exclusive.
And one doesn't want to lose oneself for the sake of one's profession.
(31:25):
So I think that there is
Like time spent learning the system, learning the industry, even if it means being alittle bit uncomfortable for a finite period of time, will serve you well.
It will teach you how to translate yourself into the industry in a way that makes you feelcomfortable and in a way that helps others understand who you are.
That's something I've learned.
(31:46):
It's like, how do I dress?
How do I speak?
How do I even just interact with people?
I spent time in the beginning just watching and listening.
And so to anyone really trying to get into construction, I would say like,
because it's a legacy space, if you come in with respect for the legacy, and if you learnhow to be a part of that, you will slowly start to translate your life into construction,
(32:11):
and I think also construction into your life in a way that really makes, how do I putthis?
You will chart your own path towards inclusion instead of demanding.
that others do that work for you.
Because when you start doing it, it gets easier for other people because they start to seeyour example, your translation into legibility and credibility.
(32:35):
that's It's perfect.
I love it.
Well, I really appreciate you reaching out to me to be a part of this series.
I think your perspective is just incredibly well thought and such just powerful messages.
And I really hope folks take the time to really pause and let some of it sink in.
Like don't react, just pause and let some of it sink in and then maybe carry one pieceforward.
(32:57):
So really appreciate you joining us today and can't wait to read your research in thefuture.
I'm excited about that.
So thank you very much for coming on today.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you for tuning in to today's episode of The Construction Cafe.
(33:17):
We hope you found our conversation as inspiring as your next big project.
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(33:37):
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Let's keep building better together.
Welcome to the Construction Cafe, where the buzz of the construction industry meets thewarmth of a friendly conversation.
I'm your host, Tristen Magallanes.
Join me at our virtual cafe as we explore the foundations of construction culture, sip oncutting edge concepts, and amplify the unspoken voices in our industry.
So grab a cup of your favorite beverage, pull up a seat, and let's build more than juststructures, let's build connections.
(00:33):
This is the Construction Cafe.
Hello, everyone.
Welcome back to the Construction Cafe.
We are continuing our Women in Construction Week series celebrating all sorts of amazingwomen in the not just construction, AEC industry as a whole.
(00:59):
And today I am joined by Simi Aluko.
Simi, welcome to the show.
Really excited to have you.
Thank you for having me.
really excited to be here.
Why don't you tell the audience, just a couple things about yourself.
What are you currently doing in the industry?
What are you passionate about?
All that fun stuff.
(01:20):
I am currently doing my PhD at Stanford in a program called Sustainable Design andConstruction.
And I'm sure what I do in the industry is I think about how we can make the projects thatwe deliver, the entire process of delivering projects a little bit more efficient and
easier for the people that are doing the work.
That's kind of how I would describe it broadly.
(01:40):
Does that touch on investigating all the way down to the user experience of the building?
Or is it focused more on the constructability and the design of it for people who arebuilding it, or both?
I think both are important.
The work I'm doing now for my PhD is to really think about more like buildability, whichis a little bit, I guess, in academic terms, defined thinner than constructability, which
(02:04):
can include like weather, can include all sorts of extenuating circumstances.
But I really think about what does it mean to truly design a house that is pleasant for ahuman being to build?
But because my background is in design, and I don't think that is something that we get alot, I think, in design schools, where we think about how to make a design work for a
user.
But in construction, as you know, we have multiple stakeholders.
(02:26):
And the builders are a big part of the process.
And their health, and their well-being, and their enjoyment of work all should be takeninto consideration.
Well, I totally agree with that.
I mean, I think I've stood on a couple of soap boxes in my career of it's important todeliver functional, beautiful buildings for people who are going to live in them, but the
(02:46):
people who are putting them together are pretty darn important too.
And their overused injuries that they have, their experience of work is equally important.
And I think we have enough knowledge now to...
to sort of start approaching that.
So that's really interesting work you're doing.
I am going to be one of the nerds that probably reads your entire PhD thesis becausethat's what I do.
(03:08):
I think research work for construction is incredibly important.
And it's often sort of shoved aside as a waste of money because it's quote unquote, notproductive revenue generating work, but sort of how do we improve if we're not doing the
testing research prototyping and failing?
(03:30):
Mm-hmm.
I definitely agree.
tell me a little bit about your journey into this, this industry, because I don't thinkit's just in my experience.
It's not something that women typically fall into.
How did you arrive at construction?
I actually...
I took kind of a traditional path into a non-traditional destination, if that makes sense.
(03:52):
So my background is...
My bachelor's in civil engineering and I did a lot of structural engineering work.
Very, know, math, physics, Excel.
You know, know everything that kind of goes into structural engineering.
I did some work with Whiting Turner as an undergrad.
And I also did work with a general contractor, a German general contractor based inNigeria, where I'm from as well.
(04:15):
And I enjoyed both processes, but something in me just felt like, in as much as I respect,
the skill that it takes to build a home and the experience it takes.
I just felt like I could see the building industry for what it could be and I didn't wantto kind of spend the rest of my career just doing RFIs or like solving problems that I had
(04:39):
seen in the previous project.
And this was really like after a very short amount of time working in construction.
It kind of hit me straight in my face once I got into the industry.
And I felt from the very beginning that there just had to be more that people in theindustry could do to make the lives of everyone better and more productive.
(04:59):
So I started my masters at Stanford, and that's where I really put words to all of thesethoughts.
I really was able to start thinking about what it means to productize building.
And that's really where I started getting into construction research.
And then during my PhD, I've also worked with a few different like startups, people,organizations that are really trying to change the way construction looks in the world.
(05:22):
And so that's basically my path.
But what happened is I started off with structural engineering, which is more traditional.
And it ended up kind of pushing me to see that.
I guess as a structural engineer, you're always thinking about efficiency.
You're always thinking about how to make things better.
That mindset applied to the construction space made me think that it has to be some
(05:42):
some things we could do to improve not just the quality of life of the actual people inthe field doing work, but also the quality of life of everyone along the kind of like
value chain.
Like the whole chain of, yeah, I mean, I even think of the folks who are producing thematerials that we end up building with.
And that to me, the entire life cycle of anything construction related is where I tend tothink of now that's big, right?
(06:13):
So we have to focus, typically I then I'm like, okay, now I need to focus on one smallarea because trying to...
approach the whole chain sometimes can be a little bit overwhelming for me.
I've had a couple other folks start in sort of the structural engineer study andbackground, and then they've gone on to these different spaces.
So think that's kind of important to highlight of this opportunity that just because youstudy one specific, I guess I would say lane, doesn't mean you have to stay in that lane.
(06:42):
You can expand
and do other things with that.
I think that's a great opportunity for people coming into the industry and also people whoare considering changing to the industry.
I wish a lot of this had been around when I was doing my master's, because I might haveshifted and pivoted.
But you never know.
I could still go back and do another one.
(07:06):
my goodness.
I think about.
I had started my PhD and then chose to come back in the industry and work.
And I think about going back and there are so many incredible opportunities now and itfeels a lot more approachable to do a PhD with different research tools now that it makes
me kind of excited.
So we'll see.
We'll see.
For now, I love just supporting those who are doing that work like yourself.
(07:31):
Are there any big challenges that you faced specifically around being a woman in thisindustry?
Yeah, I have faced...
Let me take you back to the beginning, when the challenges started, and then I'll tell youhow they evolved over time.
So, like many people, my identity is very intersectional.
(07:51):
I'm not just a woman, right?
I'm coming into construction with so many different identities that don't always work wellwith the current culture of construction.
I remember as an undergrad, when I went to my very first kind of like,
civil engineering, construction-y career fair, I remember just not being able to explainwhy my conversations with most of the recruiters there wouldn't go past like five or six
(08:16):
minutes.
Now I would look around at my classmates and I started to notice that there was a certaintype of classmate who was having longer conversations.
Those classmates tended to be the men.
That's kind of where I started to see that, something is like something about who I am inthis industry is not immediately accepted.
It's not gelling well.
That's the best way I can colloquially put it.
(08:37):
Right.
It's like, you know, when you meet someone and you guys just hit it off, I didn't havethat with anyone in part, I think, because I was carrying so many different identities.
Maybe I wasn't like, you know, the perfect personality fit for the recruiters.
Also in part, because I started to learn many of the recruiters and construction.
Obviously, I don't have data to back this up.
(08:59):
We're like men on some sports team, typically the football team in college, and they had acertain type of interest and experience that was just completely out of my world.
And I would talk about like doing a theater minor, or I would talk about being interestedin like global development.
And I wouldn't really be able, and then they would try and maybe talk to me about sportsand I couldn't carry the conversation.
(09:21):
At the time, I didn't really understand.
And you know, American sports are not the same as sports everywhere in the world.
So was like, I've not really got into baseball.
I've not really got into football.
I like I can't.
Nor should you have to do any of those things to be part of this.
Trust me, I still have conversations and meetings where it's all about golf and I'm like,no.
(09:42):
So yeah.
Exactly.
So that was, think, the first time I really realized outside of a classroom thatconstruction doesn't look like what it looked like in my classroom.
In my classroom, had, gosh, I want to say off the top of my head, were like, it was asmall program, so let's say 12 students in civil engineering.
(10:04):
And I want to say five or six were girls, right?
So it wasn't like a terribly like...
unbalanced situation.
was maybe slightly one, like maybe one more boy or exactly the same.
don't, I don't remember.
But it was fine in class.
But recruiting, I think was the first time I was like something here.
Like the industry does not match what it looks like in my classroom.
(10:27):
And then I remember I went back home to Nigeria for a summer to do work on theconstruction site.
I told you about the German company.
We were building a 12, I would say 12 story reinforced concrete.
building, like was an office building.
And I remember walking on, I remember when I had the interview, the person who wasrecruiting me said he really liked my application.
(10:54):
And then he invited like one of the only high kind of high ranking female engineers in thecompany.
And he said, I want you to know that like you can do basically just a pep talk, right?
And I want you to know that you can break any, any bounds or ceilings put on you.
Look at her.
She's doing a great job.
One of me was like, why would he have to go through the pain of saying this?
(11:14):
Again, I was a little bit younger.
I hadn't really seen what was going on in the industry.
But then I walked onto site on the first day and I was like, this is the reason why,because I am the only girl here that's an engineer.
And that's where the challenge has started.
It's not, fortunately, guess generationally, people haven't been bold enough to sayanything rude.
But it's things like, why can't I hold a conversation with my colleagues?
(11:39):
Why is it that when decisions are being made, I might not be in the room?
Why is it that it sounds like everyone else has had a conversation and now I'm just kindof catching up?
It's hard to do your work when you're not getting information at the same rate in the sameway.
everyone else is getting in.
Those are the things that I felt like were tough.
Construction is a very relational industry as you have definitely observed and not beingable to build relationships to me has been like one of the harder things because without
(12:08):
relationships you don't get information without information you don't get anything done inthis space.
Yeah, I think a couple things you've pointed to is this sort of, well, with the recruitingspecifically, that's that unconscious bias that folks have of recruiting, like, similarity
bias of recruiting the same, like those that look like you.
(12:31):
probably not a lot of that is, I'm...
I like to think of there's good in people and I'm assuming that they just don't realizewhat they're doing, right?
They're just hiring the same people that have the same interests as them But being awareof it and interrupting it is something that I think is starting to happen in a lot of
spaces.
And it's really important, I think, that construction companies who do actively go out andrecruit
(12:57):
hear this message that they need to have one, recruiters should be trained enough andaware enough to create that equitable space for any person to have the opportunity to come
into the company.
And also, I think it's important that they have different representation recruiterspresent at these events.
(13:19):
Maybe you send me and I'm no, I'm not an engineer and I'm not directly on a project site.
but I can still be a representation that there are other people, not just cisgender whitemen in this industry.
Because I think that helps to make those connections.
Funny, my husband was a recruiter in the military for several years at the last part ofhis service.
(13:43):
And he tells me stories all the time and he's always joking.
He's like, I can come in and recruit anybody for anything, for any reason.
And I'm like, what?
He goes, yeah, there's like this whole playbook on how to do this.
And I'm like, OK.
But he was very specifically trained on how to recruit.
Whereas I think people in construction, they're like, just send the project manager that'sin the area that used to go to that school and have them do it with not a lot of
(14:09):
active training on how to do that in an equitable way.
So that's really important.
somebody who's been in the industry a while myself, I'm still often the only female in theroom.
So your experience of walking on a job site and being the only woman still happens oftenand frequently.
I hope we can continue to change that together.
(14:29):
specifically talking about equity, when it comes to equity for women in this industry,what kind of changes do you think are most needed
I'm going to answer your question a little bit of a roundabout way, that's okay.
no, go for it.
Yeah, I like to think of myself as a person of first principles.
(14:49):
So I'm going to tell you about the change.
Well, first I'm going to tell you about my theory of change.
Why do I think that change is going to work?
I think that it is hard.
Our industry is a legacy industry.
I'll put it that way.
really value having done something for a long time.
We really value the ideas of the immovable, the proven, and I respect that.
(15:11):
And that's one of the reasons why I came into the industry.
And I think for many people, we talk about change and equity and inclusion, and it feelslike it's challenging the legacy of the industry.
But in a very fundamental way, I disagree, actually, that those two things are at odds.
think that this industry, like legacy themes are beautiful and majestic.
(15:33):
And I think the beauty of legacy is that it's like people and culture, it can evolve, evenif ever so slightly, to sustain itself.
The beauty of a legacy is that it will continue on.
So for me, change in this industry works with continuing the legacy of what it means to doskilled trades, build high quality buildings, high performing buildings that serve real
(15:59):
people well, that we can all be proud of today.
What I think it will take to change the construction industry is not just getting morewomen into
the classrooms, right?
Because I've now come up in spaces where really there are almost 50-50 splits in theclassrooms I've been in as a woman, yet that doesn't always translate into the field.
(16:21):
I think on the one hand, some schools and some parts of the world have kind of got thatequity in terms of who gets into the classroom.
I think the next thing is like when the next big thing I see is not just how do we embracechange, but how do we define
the dignity in construction work.
(16:42):
That's kind of deep and it's a layer, think, beneath what many people look at.
my interactions, my research, I think one thing I've noticed about the industry is thatdignity and legacy are very big to us.
And I think that until everyone in this space starts to realize that what feeds intolegacy, there will really be no change.
(17:06):
Because right now I think many people see equity and inclusion as nice to have.
They're like, we just tack this on because the world likes it and the Gen Z's love to hearabout it.
And if we don't, then we're going to get canceled.
Whereas the way I see it and the way I think more people should see it is that inclusionand equity will continue to fuel this industry and make it great, make it the thing we are
(17:33):
proud of.
Your observation about legacy, I think you put into words what sometimes I think, and youdid a much better job than I probably ever could.
One of the things that I often talk about when it's specifically robotics and differenttechnologies is that
(17:54):
People are afraid of a lot of that and reject it in this industry.
And I truly think some of that comes from the fear of becoming no longer relevant or validbecause there's a sense of pride in the craft that they do.
There is, I took this thing, I created it, I built it with my own hands.
(18:17):
There's immense amount of pride as there should be.
in those things.
I watched my dad as a carpenter.
I grew up with him.
I did projects.
And when I finished building my first picnic table, I was so proud of that.
And I've carried that on throughout my life.
And I think when we challenge that, and not intentionally, not overtly, but when there's achallenge to that, that is met with fear of becoming irrelevant.
(18:46):
And I don't think people could introspect that
necessarily what's happening for them.
But I have to imagine if I put I empathetically try to put myself in their shoes.
Yeah, that's that's that's pretty scary.
And so the immediate rejection of is I would assume common.
So that to me ties into this concept of legacy, and helping to shift the thought processesof
(19:12):
And I've seen this happen with some, you know, they talk about like, you know, your crustyold superintendent, like hard, hard shell exterior sort of person persona.
I've watched some of them embrace.
wanting to build something different and better and be part of that change because theyrecognize they want to leave a legacy of new generation in the industry that has adapted
(19:35):
all of this stuff and does it better, faster, stronger.
And that mindset shift of, I don't have to repeat what I've always done.
I can do it differently and still be valuable and leave an amazing legacy.
That
think is growing.
And it's really beautiful to see when it does happen.
But there are still some spaces where it's just not happening.
(19:57):
And it's really, I think, sometimes frustrating.
But it's a very important, I think, piece to keep in mind when you're approaching somebodyand asking them to change something.
I agree.
I agree completely.
think kind of on the back of that, my observation with some innovators in the constructionspace, just some, is that I think some of them, I say I think because this is a projection
(20:24):
really, nobody has said this to my face, but what I'm reading off some people is that itseems like they want to change the industry, maybe they're like me and they're really
passionate about housing.
or they're really passionate about high-efficient, high-performing buildings, whateverhave you, they want to change something.
The end users are really what they care about.
And then the people in construction, I kind of like the thorn in their flesh.
(20:46):
That is the...
mentality I'm seeing.
To be approached by an innovator who thinks they're the thorn in their flesh, thinkcreates some of this resistance.
Let me call it that.
Agreed.
I agree.
I think it's also, I may have discovered a better, and I use the word better a little bitbegrudgingly, but I may have discovered or figured out or designed a better way to do
(21:15):
something, right?
More efficient, insert whatever word you want.
And I take it to somebody and they reject it.
I think a lot of folks' reaction to that is, well, you're just stupid.
You don't care.
You don't understand.
Like, they insert all these stories in that moment to elevate their own selves over.
And I don't think that they're missing the point.
(21:37):
Like, these folks who've been building for 40, 50 years are the folks who have someincredible knowledge.
And if you sit back and just observe and watch and ask curious questions,
Whatever you think you've developed could actually be so much better if you did that.
casting them aside, at least that's how it feels.
(21:57):
You're trying to cast them aside and shove them off and be like, I can do better.
And maybe you can do it better.
But I don't think casting somebody who's been doing something really well for 50 years isthe right thing to do either.
So yeah, that's a.
interesting observation.
And I
this back in though, in kind of my train of thought about why this is important to theworld of women in construction and equity.
(22:24):
I think that if you look at people who do physical trades, right, if you look atmanufacturing, what people in construction fear has happened to their friends in those
industries, right?
Many of them were replaced by robots and machines, even though this was many, many yearsago.
I feel that
Part of the reason why people are, especially in the US at least, are holding on so tightto the legacy that they have now is that they do not see a future legacy that involves
(22:53):
them.
And so anything relating to women in construction, equity, inclusion, it feels very antitheir daily bread, right?
Their bread and butter, which is really kind of what most human beings are indexing for.
And I feel that the best way to push towards equity and inclusion is not always to saythis is a nice thing to do for someone else.
(23:13):
Mm-hmm.
Cause when you think about your daily bread, someone else is not really kind of yourpersonal problem.
I do think that when we do things better for everyone, like if we make something moreacceptable physically, if we make something lighter so that anyone of any ability can
carry it, then you, the person of legacy might not strain your back as much.
(23:35):
And I think that when we frame the world of women coming into construction, I thinksometimes we say this is the right thing to do.
balance the world, let's try to build the world with all of this guy instead of just halfof this guy, all of this I agree with.
And yet I think that when speaking to people who have a strong sense of pride and legacy,and I think it's really important to preserve that because pride and legacy are not built
(23:57):
overnight.
I think that's something that is keeping this industry afoot.
The best way to be inclusive, in my opinion, is to include it in the interests of thelegacy that is construction.
That's tying it neatly with the bow.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And when you improve something for one subset of people, inevitably, it has benefits foreveryone.
(24:19):
It's sometimes just harder for them to see, I think.
And, you know, also accepting that some people aren't going to ever agree or aren't evergoing to jump on the train and want to change.
And sometimes you just have to accept that that is who they are and continue on anyway.
(24:41):
So are there any specific organizations you've seen do work in this space?
I mean, I know that you're doing it with your
PhD is Stanford doing things specifically with some of their research or their otherorganizations that you know of that are doing this kind of work?
There is a whole body of, I'll call it like ethnographic research in construction thatkind of looks into like, a lot of it looks at like worker safety.
(25:13):
And construction has been a little bit of a fight to access space for researchers that usesocial science methods.
Anyone that wants to kind of walk onto a site and talk to people has been really hard.
(25:37):
Yes,
I have a good friend who's doing work on what the factors are that affect people's abilityto work.
Right now, I'm actually taking this call from Nairobi, Kenya.
And interestingly, there are some real estate development, like investment funds that onlyinvest when there are outcomes for women in construction,
there's like DFI, there's some DFI money, there's some just like real estate developmentmoney, some aid money, but also just generally like people pouring into this space really
just want to see women working construction.
(25:58):
There's an organization here called Build Her.
They train women to really do kind of physical work.
Yeah, I've heard of them before in a couple different areas, I believe, build her.
So if you could think back to your early days when you first stepped onto the job site, isthere any piece of advice or something you would say to yourself on that day?
(26:23):
Yes, there's something.
And it's in response to some of the advice that I got.
I told you that growing up between my parents, my mom, my dad, and also some of the peoplearound me, have engineers in the family, doctors in the family.
So I was always told that I could do whatever I wanted.
And that definitely empowered me to get through some of the like awkward recruitingsituations or or the difficult.
(26:48):
conversations I had to have in the construction space.
On top of that, what I would have told myself is that the very Gen Z thing to say the gameis the game, right?
Like the way the game is set up exists as it is.
And yes, you can break all of the glass ceilings, but like, kind of learn the system ofthe game and choose how you're going to play it.
(27:11):
I feel like a lot of
people give women advice that's like, can do anything you want, go for it.
And like, yes, go for it.
But like, learn the game, like sit down and listen.
I think that it's not as straightforward as you think.
I, for example, nowadays, the way I dress off construction sites is not the way I dress onconstruction sites.
(27:31):
The way I play the game is I try to be legible and credible.
And that's the advice I would give anyone.
Learn to be legible to the people you are trying to interact with, right?
if you're talking to someone that only speaks a certain language and there are onlycertain letters or consonants or vowels in their language, you might try to avoid English
words, for example, that have the letters that they don't understand.
(27:52):
That's like an exercise in making yourself legible.
Same thing in construction.
If people can't process, I think, every part of your identity, depending on how yourstomach sits with that, I think you don't have to present every single one all the time.
just for the sake of legibility, because that also feeds into credibility.
And so I've just learned that look like you can do whatever you want, but at least in thebeginning of your career, learn to play the game.
(28:19):
That's a really, yeah, it's a great piece of advice.
I, man, that like, I'm just, that I'm letting that sink in because it's, it's a hardthing, I think, for like a 20 something to swallow that piece of advice, right?
Like I'm gonna show up, I'm gonna be who I am and you have to accept me.
(28:41):
That's typical, I feel developmentally, that's typically how a lot of folks are in their20s.
I know I was.
And sometimes it's just not the game.
It's.
It's the same thing.
feel like I worked for an attorney for a while when I was younger.
Same thing with going into court.
Like if I walked into court and I dressed how I normally would dress or the bright, loudcolors, like it's typically I'm to be taken less seriously.
(29:06):
And that's right, wrong, or indifferent.
It is the state, like you said, it's the state of the game.
So learn to play the game really, really well.
It's I'm a chess player.
You set up your chessboard, you set up your game, you set up your plays.
It doesn't matter whether it's fair or right or wrong, learn to set your plays up really,really well.
(29:27):
And then you can checkmate.
So that's, it's a really great piece of advice.
Well, as we get closer to wrapping up, I want to give you an opportunity, if there are anywomen in this industry.
that you want to give a shout out to or thank or just call out for the work that they'redoing.
I would love it if you shared some of that.
(29:48):
Yes, of course, I would love to.
I worked with some amazing women at Modulus my first year out of grad school.
I worked with Cara, Eva Jen, Janet.
and Cassie.
There you go.
Five women.
They put me in kind of the aspirational construction world that was run by women.
(30:10):
And that definitely set me on a path right early on in my career to see I think what theworld could be because that's the world I was kind of born into.
So huge shout out to them.
As well as my many amazing professors from undergrad.
really I think shielded and guided me through some of the crazy of life as a young studentand so on.
(30:37):
Yeah, that modulus team, I know several of them and they're just how great it must havebeen to that be your first experience of an all female team that you were able to work
with in this industry and learn from So any anything other final thoughts you want to addbefore we wrap up?
I think I've said my big, like, you know, I came in with something to say and I'm leavingempty as is.
(31:01):
I think maybe one final remark about women in the construction space is actually let meuse this opportunity to tie up our last point of conversation with a bow.
I would say that in as much as I have said that you need to learn to play the game,playing the game and being yourself are not mutually exclusive.
And one doesn't want to lose oneself for the sake of one's profession.
(31:25):
So I think that there is
Like time spent learning the system, learning the industry, even if it means being alittle bit uncomfortable for a finite period of time, will serve you well.
It will teach you how to translate yourself into the industry in a way that makes you feelcomfortable and in a way that helps others understand who you are.
That's something I've learned.
(31:46):
It's like, how do I dress?
How do I speak?
How do I even just interact with people?
I spent time in the beginning just watching and listening.
And so to anyone really trying to get into construction, I would say like,
because it's a legacy space, if you come in with respect for the legacy, and if you learnhow to be a part of that, you will slowly start to translate your life into construction,
(32:11):
and I think also construction into your life in a way that really makes, how do I putthis?
You will chart your own path towards inclusion instead of demanding.
that others do that work for you.
Because when you start doing it, it gets easier for other people because they start to seeyour example, your translation into legibility and credibility.
(32:35):
that's It's perfect.
I love it.
Well, I really appreciate you reaching out to me to be a part of this series.
I think your perspective is just incredibly well thought and such just powerful messages.
And I really hope folks take the time to really pause and let some of it sink in.
Like don't react, just pause and let some of it sink in and then maybe carry one pieceforward.
(32:57):
So really appreciate you joining us today and can't wait to read your research in thefuture.
I'm excited about that.
So thank you very much for coming on today.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you for tuning in to today's episode of The Construction Cafe.
(33:17):
We hope you found our conversation as inspiring as your next big project.
Remember, you can dive deeper into the resources and topics we discuss by connecting withus on LinkedIn and Instagram.
Just search for The Construction Cafe.
Don't miss out on future episodes.
Be sure to follow us on Spotify, Podbean, and Apple Podcasts to keep the conversationgoing.
(33:37):
If you're passionate about the construction industry and have a story to share, we'd loveto hear from you.
Visit our website at the constructioncafe.com and drop us a note.
Let's keep building better together.
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