May 21, 2025 • 42 mins
In this episode of The Construction Cafe, host Tristen Magallanes welcomes back safety professional and Navy veteran Shawn Love to talk about mental health in the construction industry. Together, they dive into the challenges of stigma, the parallels between military and construction cultures, and how leaders and peers can play a role in supporting workers' mental well-being. From troop checks to toolbox talks, accessible resources to alcohol use, this honest conversation offers insight and actionable ideas for a healthier industry.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:05):
Welcome to the Construction Cafe, where the buzz of the construction industry meets thewarmth of a friendly conversation.
I'm your host, Tristen Magallanes.
Join me at our virtual cafe as we explore the foundations of construction culture, sip oncutting edge concepts, and amplify the unspoken voices in our industry.
So grab a cup of your favorite beverage, pull up a seat, and let's build more than juststructures, let's build connections.
(00:33):
This is the Construction Cafe.
Hi folks, welcome back to the Construction Cafe.
Really excited to welcome back Shawn Love.
(00:53):
You were with us for an episode back in, I think, January or February when we talkedthrough leadership.
And I really appreciate you coming back to talk about something I'm passionate about,which is the mental health of our folks in construction.
So welcome back, Shawn.
Maybe do a quick intro of yourself again for folks who maybe didn't hear the last episodeyou were in.
(01:13):
yeah, solid.
Hey, thanks for having me back.
Afternoon, hard charge to everybody out there and Tristan, thanks for having me backagain.
I'm a safety professional in construction industry.
Prior to falling into this role, I did some time in the Navy, retired as a chief pettyofficer.
So when we start talking about mental health or leadership or those things, those reallytie into that with that experience.
(01:34):
And I've of been doing that.
So I did that for almost 22 years.
been doing construction safety since 2017 2018.
Yeah, well, and I know the connection of veterans in construction industry, a lot ofpeople make that connection because a lot of folks leave their military roles and come to
(02:01):
work in our industry.
And I'm glad they do.
We have the use for their talent and skills and...
So I think when we first started talking about this, I was excited because there's somesimilarities in the military versus construction, the kind of environments you're in, the
folks you're around, and the way crews are run.
(02:22):
And that sort of spoke to both of us when we were talking through this.
And there's a lot of stigma around mental health in both spaces.
And you yourself have been in those spaces and I think can speak to that a bit more.
cause there's just a general discomfort about talking about your mental health, period.
(02:44):
Yeah.
Huge.
Yeah, would you say that you think that that's as a result of the environment?
it, do you think that the stigma might be gender related or just you're taught in thoseenvironments not to talk about it maybe?
I think when I look at it, a lot of it comes into play.
It's all encompassing.
(03:05):
You look at societal norms, you look at how we're trained, how we're taught, how we'reraised, the expectation.
When you look at mental health and want to specifically touch on, because I'm not theexpert, I'm going touch on PTSD for the military.
Back in the day, they were called War of the Roses and then Shellshock.
(03:26):
this and that, but no one knew how to deal with it because we didn't talk about it.
Right?
Growing up, if you were a guy, as a kid, right?
If you're a young boy, you get hurt, get up, dust it off, you're fucked, you're you'regonna be a man, you just don't worry about it.
(03:46):
You know, so that kind of comes into play and then that gets built upon through yourupbringing.
ah Junior high, high school.
Military, college, everywhere.
Guys don't talk about their feelings, right?
That was the thing.
We don't, we're a man, we don't talk about our feelings.
We trudge along and we just get it done and we deal with our stuff later.
(04:09):
In our own way, right?
Yeah, or just never deal with it and then we're seeing how that works out.
Kind of pops like a volcano sometimes.
So there's, I mean there's...
A lot of different things I feel that go into that, but all of those, right?
it's, it's, think people always look for the the single linear answer.
(04:31):
And I think this is one of those things that's, it's so complex.
And it's such a multi level layered mental health in general is multi level and layered.
And then when you add on all the things you mentioned, societal norms of, of being a youngboy, of being a young, a young man in high school of
being a young person in the military going to 20 years career in the military.
(04:54):
And I have a lot of family in the military, a lot of friends in the military, and I'veworked with a lot of folks in construction who were also veterans.
And hearing their experiences, it's kind of inevitable that you come with, they come outwith like, we don't talk about these things.
We just suffer through them.
Because somehow there's pride in suffering through, which I...
(05:15):
I'm like, well, can we get rid of that first?
I don't think we need to find pride in the suffering.
I think we can start to talk about it and deal with things differently.
you know, as I talked with Sonia last episode around suicide prevention in our industry,which is incredibly important, and I've done some, you know, digging into doing some
(05:35):
research.
And of course I like statistics.
I mean, I'm a touchy feely person and I also like stats and numbers.
So I think they tell a story.
And the Center for Construction Research and Training reported that 15 % of workersreported feeling anxiety or depression.
Right, but that's reported.
(05:56):
A lot of people report it.
But then 85 % of those people have never taught.
talk to anybody, sought help, reach out to anybody.
So even though they're reporting feeling this way, they're not reaching out to seek help.
So I guess kind of what I think of is how can we as leaders in our industry, safetyprofessionals in our industry, what can we do to help with that?
(06:20):
For me, that's why I kind of pause and think.
There's a lot of resources that we can utilize.
There's a lot of little things we can do in order to get better at that, The first thingis when you're not comfortable with that, with asking, hey, how are you doing?
And actually wanting to sit there and listen, right?
With active listening, go, hey, what is this person actually saying?
(06:41):
Like paying attention.
When you're not comfortable with that, that's gonna be a huge challenge.
So some folks that's gonna be the biggest challenge is getting over that initial hurdle oflack of a better term, breaking the upbringing that we had to actually talk about it,
right?
Cause that's the hardest part is to break that silence.
(07:03):
One of the easiest things and we used to call them troop checks or sailor checks, howeveryou want to, you put it when we see something, we...
we're noticing something that isn't going well with a group or a person and we go, hey, weneed to troop check.
Hey, we need to go check on our sailors and Marines.
We need to go look at this, right?
And we just pull them aside and go, hey, what's up, man?
(07:23):
How you doing, right?
You just have that conversation.
Because when you're both doing this, but you're sharing blood in the same mud, you have tofigure a way to stop doing this and start going side by side, right?
And so sometimes those conversations are
very easy, sometimes those conversations are very difficult to have.
(07:44):
So in the construction side, it's kind of the same mentality, Majority of constructionworkers are men.
Majority of the mindset, how I look at it, is we don't talk about feelings, we don't talkabout A, B, and C, right?
That's getting better, it still happens.
When we, again,
If someone's having a hard time, hey, can you come out and talk to someone?
(08:07):
So, hey, I noticed something.
Can we do a troop check?
Yeah, absolutely.
And just come out and go, hey, how you doing?
You see that person pulling the sides.
Hey, you got a minute?
Hey, man, I noticed.
Hey, know, this is going on.
You're awful quiet.
Like, we good?
Like, everything going on?
Just curious, man.
Want to make sure you're good.
Yeah, I like I like the idea of the troop checks, you know, it it kind of givespermission, even though people don't need it.
(08:32):
It gives permission to to say what's really on their minds with hopefully someone thatthey think is a safe person to talk to, who also may very well have here's these three
resources I think might be helpful.
And if you need help.
accessing them, let me know.
I'll help you make those phone calls because I think that's part of it too.
(08:54):
We might have the resources, but taking that first step to accessing them can feeloverwhelming.
There's a lot of shame involved in like, I need help.
So I'm less than now, or I'm just so depressed.
I can't make that phone call.
And sometimes they just need that first step help.
And then you let
the professionals that are trained to help folks in that methods, you know, do that.
(09:18):
And sometimes really just having, you know, that other person at work genuinely ask youhow you're doing and know that they truly care can make a world of difference in someone's
life.
That's how I see it.
You know,
that's all it'll take is that one interaction of, I'm concerned, I'm genuinely concerned.
(09:39):
I'm not just going, hey, how are you doing?
I'm genuinely concerned with your well-being.
I noticed something that's outside of the norm.
Hey, is everything good?
How's everything?
How's A, B, and C?
I know you were going through struggles with a parent or a sibling or a spouse or whathave you.
Hey, how's that going, man?
Hey, I know that you haven't talked to you so and so for a while.
(10:00):
How's that?
Like just that one interaction can sometimes change the entire outcome.
Right.
And just, just having that there is, it can be huge.
And again, it goes back to resources, right?
You've got the employee assistance program.
There's that company should have, I'm hoping every company has, which gets into
(10:24):
legal assistance or mental health or whatever it may be, right?
If you need help with getting the will or whatever, those programs are for that.
It's also there for counseling for therapy for whichever you may require or may want tolook at.
Along with that, so you talked about Sonia with the Construction Industry Alliance forSuicide Prevention.
(10:46):
To say that slow, I'll start tripping over my
always trip up on that one and if I try to say the abbreviation, I say it backwards.
uh
so that's huge, just industry-wide, because that hasn't been a thing, right?
It's the last few years that's really gotten huge, and the message has gotten out theremore.
So again, resources.
There's just an abundance.
(11:07):
Mental health first aid, like there's so many things that you
the construction industry Alliance for Suicide Prevention, they just all theirs is theyjust have a plethora of options and they're all free to access none of it like you don't
have to pay for it.
They can help companies develop programs and I would say we as individuals can also justtake the time to
(11:31):
do a little bit of our own education around things.
Sure, we do first aid.
There's also mental health first aid training, which Sonia was telling me was like 60 to90 minutes, the initial training.
So I was like, you, I think I joked like we do scroll on social media more than that in amonth.
So just commit to doing the 60 minutes and maybe you could help somebody someday.
You know, I think it's also just a genuine shift we're seeing.
(11:55):
I hope we're seeing in our society that everyone has feelings.
regardless of your gender, and we should all feel safe to talk about them and to seek helpwhen needed.
And I think mental health in general in our society has also changed with difficulty toaccess help, which is frustrating.
But like you mentioned when we were chatting, there's easier things to, like a...
(12:20):
rather than making an appointment with like, we have Kaiser in California, right?
Rather than trying to get into Kaiser's mental health system, which could take a very longtime, or even the VA has a very long waiting time.
um You can, there's like services like BetterHelp.
And I think you mentioned, it's like a, can even text and interact with a therapist orsomebody.
You can use our app, you can call.
(12:42):
And a lot of employers are offering those services alongside the normal
traditional healthcare systems.
And I know of BetterHelp.
I think I used it a long time ago.
There's other ones similar though that just make it really easy to just seek that help andhave those questions without going through all these waiting periods.
(13:04):
Yeah.
And then you also have the cost of it too, right?
So looking, so I did my mental health first aid course because as just as a safety personalone, we strive to or should strive to improve health and safety for our coworkers, our
company all around, right?
That's everything.
That's not just ladders and fall protection, scaffolds and excavations.
(13:28):
That's also
Making sure that you're not walking into a hostile environment.
Making sure that your health is mental health as well.
for me, I think that that's a role as a safety professional that we kind of have a handin.
That's just how I look at it.
Not everyone agrees, but that's how I look at it.
Because I my folks to go home in the same fashion that they came to work.
(13:52):
Maybe a little bit heavier on the wallet, and that's about it.
ah
Yeah.
the cost is insane.
Like if you look at BetterHelp and then you look at an in-person local place, In-personlocal place is $180 an hour.
Easy, easily, if not more, yeah.
and on the low end right where I think better help I forget what the cost was but it wasnot it was like once it was like 300 a month but that's not an in-person that's like just
(14:28):
online texting messaging journaling that type there's my in-person availability for thatprogram however it's there it's a resource it's
Well, and I even, when I was trying to find different sources for mental health assistancefor one of my foster kiddos, I remember I found this newer program where it was like
(14:55):
online gaming, but you're in a small closed group.
And so it's closed off.
It's not public.
You go in and it's like six to eight people and there's like a therapist in there with youor counselor.
And so you it's like group therapy, but you're playing a game.
So it helps you not feel so like that stigma isn't as is like right in front and center.
(15:16):
So you're kind of interacting.
And I forget the games that they play.
What's the my goodness.
It's super popular right now because a movie just came out with all Minecraft.
Yeah.
So they do Minecraft environments.
and you can run around and you're building stuff, but you're talking to people and theyhad the, they had it for adults and then they made it for like teenagers.
And I want to say the cost was only a couple hundred bucks.
(15:39):
It was like 150 bucks or it wasn't super crazy.
And I was like, that is such a great idea of like shifting access to like talking.
when you need to, you know, because it just creates a little bit of, and so I thought thatwas kind of cool.
I found that last year or the year before.
Going back to sort of this idea though, you brought up, you you feel it's the safetyprofessionals, partial responsibility on top of everyone else's to like lean in and help
(16:10):
with the mental health side of things.
And I kind of agree because our physical wellbeing is always going to be affected.
either convert, you know, before or after with our mental health, like they fit together,in my opinion.
And, you know, thinking back to my days where I helped like write up safety reports, whatusually would happen is someone would get injured, they would go to the first aid clinic
(16:33):
or whatever, and they would slap down a prescription of opioids.
That was very common when I was doing these reports.
And then came this massive wave of opioid addiction in our industry society as well.
It's still there.
It's still a problem.
And I was looking at the stats on that before we talked because I felt like it was kind ofan important thing to talk through.
(17:00):
And man, I'm going to read some statistics.
In 2022, synthetic opioids like fentanyl were involved in 75 % of overdose deaths amongconstruction workers.
So these are just construction workers.
In 2022, over 110 construction workers died from workplace overdoses in California alone.
(17:24):
Like 18 % of workplace construction deaths were overdoses basically in 2022.
But that like
I want people to let that sink in.
Let's just round it.
20 % of construction related deaths had to deal with overdoses.
So for us to think that that's not something we should pay attention to is kind of, Ithink, missing the mark.
(17:45):
Yeah.
Now, we can't fix that, but can we help?
Can we get them to the right places?
Yes, and we have, I think, that obligation to do so.
Yeah, I think we do too.
It's a challenge for like, as a safety professional, should my actual responsibility bewith mental health?
Like should I be the one that's mental health first aid?
Should I be driving this?
(18:07):
Or is it, hey, we need to make sure that we have a program in place.
We need to make sure we have a protocol in place.
We need to make sure we have something in place that addresses mental health assistance,right?
Whether that's the EAP, whatever that looks like.
So I think, and that's just a range of what do I want to take?
So many options.
(18:28):
I think that it's going to be up to the company and then the person really to say, hey,this is what I'm willing to take on.
But I do feel that as a safety guy, we own a piece of that.
That's safety, right?
If we notice that we to do something, we can't just sit there and go,
Right.
Well, but if yeah.
(18:49):
Well, and then you look in, I mean, one of my first or second episodes I ever recorded forConstruction Cafe was around a lot of it was around mental health.
But I talked about alcohol use in our industry.
And I've always kind of joked kind of kind of, but also, yes.
on the industry taught me how to drink.
Like, it's just kind of true.
(19:12):
And all of our outings and social outings were based around, you know, alcohol and alcoholis in and of itself a depressant.
Am I saying people, no one should drink on the planet, you shouldn't enjoy a nice glass ofwine or cocktail?
No, I'm not saying that at all.
I am saying that this industry heavily promotes that as a method of socialization andsomething to do after work to like, blow off the steam.
(19:35):
And I don't know that that's the best thing anymore.
More stats, fun times.
17 % of construction workers reported consistent heavy alcohol consumption.
Self-reported.
that's what then those are the ones we know about.
Yeah.
the ones that are self-reporting.
So that means there's a pretty good chance that one person on your crew is a heavy drinkerand might be coming to work intoxicated or hungover.
(20:01):
Could be.
Could be.
the physical safety on your job site.
it does.
For that reason, there are things that should already be in place.
Like we do reasonable suspicion training so that you are able to identify that and go,hey, hold on.
You smell like a brewery.
home.
(20:22):
Or we were able to see those signs of intoxication or whatever, maybe of unsafe behavior.
And we're able to remove that behavior, hopefully get it.
on the side and go, hey, let's reevaluate this and then have a better decision movingforward of what needs to happen, right?
Yeah, for sure.
And, you know, I just think also about, you know, that person comes to work, it's a 90plus degree day, they're hungover, then they're going to enter into heat illness because
(20:50):
they were not hydrated enough, and then they're going to cause potentially a problembecause they dropped something on the person next to him because like the trickle effect
of those actions on a project site can have real, you know, ramifications.
And I think it's important for us to
you know, address it for the safety of everyone, but also like we care about those people.
We want them to be happy and living, you know, good lives.
(21:12):
And when 20 % of them are saying they're heavily consuming alcohol, I think we should payattention to that.
The other thing I think a lot about is this ongoing, there's a construction laborshortage, right?
Increasing demand of
of construction projects with less labor and an aging workforce still as well.
(21:34):
And then you've got folks that are coming work in 10, 12 hours a day potentially doinghard work in the heat or the cold or whatever.
What is that doing to them physically and monthly?
That's got a huge impact.
I think to put a kind of disclaimer out there though, I think we, I see a lot of like whenwe're doing hiring, when companies are hiring, there's a lot of people that are trying or
(22:00):
hired, whether it be union, non-union.
So if we're talking union, we're pulling folks out of union hall saying, Hey, we need tothis position.
I think there's, there's people there.
The challenge I know looking at what we do and what others do.
is that it's skilled labor, right?
It's a shortage of the skilled experience.
So you might have a hand out there.
Yeah, I can push a broom, I can do A, B, and C, right?
(22:23):
But if I need that person to be a pipe layer, they'd look at me like I have six heads.
Or if I need them to go do something that's trade or skill specific that they may nothave, right?
So I just want to throw kind of throw it out to where, there is a shortage, right?
But I think the bigger shortage is the shortage of skilled and experienced labor.
Right, skilled, experienced tradesmen.
(22:44):
I don't want to say just labor, just tradesmen across the board.
Trades folks.
So, yeah, but going back to the long hours that can have a huge impact, right?
Because now we're talking about high stress.
We're talking about more hours of work than we're off work.
we're, all of that just compacts, compacts, compacts, compacts, right?
(23:05):
Now we're talking about high blood pressure.
We're talking about...
Mmm.
everything we just brought up, right?
So when for me it was when I was a heavy drinker, it was going out had a long ass day, 12whatever hours.
I'm to go get trashed.
I'm going to go drink off the long day because that's thing to do.
(23:28):
Yeah.
Right.
And when you would get called in all the time, I would go home.
I would make a rum and Coke.
right there it wasn't they were like I would drop my bags go to the freezer grab the rumopen the fridge grab the coke grab the glass boom boom stir slam that one down so that
they called me I could say sorry I've already had a drink I can't come to work.
(23:49):
interesting.
So there's that aspect.
that's just for me.
Yeah, oh so there's those as well.
Yeah, it's such a huge impact.
When you have all this, you have to be able to do your best to mitigate all that, right?
And how to identify that and where to step in and go, hey, maybe we can do this now, orhey, maybe we do this.
(24:15):
Let's look at.
taking a break or whatever that
Well, and I think that there's also the I just because I'm thinking of my dad when I wasgrowing up and he's a carpenter and the people I was around because he knew different
crews and folks he worked with.
There was also this this sort of immediately off shift, somebody had a cooler and you'dcrack some crack beers open together in the parking lot and then you would drive home and
(24:41):
then you would
do that again with your local neighborhood.
it was part of it.
I remember.
And again, this is my experience and my memories, but and I'm not suppositioning everybodydoes this.
part of it was my his body hurt.
He was tired.
And rather than rather than poppin pills, there's those that drink to not feel thephysical pain of what some of their jobs are doing to them when they're working.
(25:10):
He was an union, but
you know, it could be five, six, some of them end up working six days a week and they'redriving far, you know, all just all this difficulty.
So like, what can we do to put in like a healthier aspect or healthier habits of dealingwith the physical pain their bodies might go through or the exhaustion that they might
(25:33):
feel or just the separation of being away from their families for so much because of howfar they have to go.
There's emotional struggles there too.
There's no one single answer for any of this, which is what makes it so challenging, Ithink.
ah
Yeah, there's no one right answer.
You gotta do what you can, I guess.
(25:54):
Not I guess, you do what you can and how you can, right?
Whether that's training or checking in or whatever you can.
And if people drink, that's up to them.
Like, you hand to your business, go hand to what you need to do.
I just look at it, just be responsible about it, right?
If you know it's gonna be 110 degrees tomorrow.
maybe drinking a bunch of beer the night before may not be good idea because you are goingto be horribly affected in 110 degrees.
(26:19):
ah So there's that.
I don't want to sit like I'm telling people don't drink or anything.
That's both under your business, but at least do a response.
And being responsible about it does mean thinking about the next day and the effects ofthose things and how that is for the rest of the people around you that you are also
responsible.
(26:39):
Like, I think it I think of it as I'm responsible.
It's just like a sport, right?
I'm responsible to show up for my team.
And our performance of our whole team is dependent on all of us and how we show up.
And if I show up having, you know, I'm thinking of
I don't know, volleyball for instance, or something like that.
If I show up and I'm hungover, I'm dehydrated, I can't really, I'm wobbly becausewhatever, and I didn't sleep well, I'm gonna let my team down.
(27:07):
I imagine, I have to imagine, and I don't know for sure, but the military has to be kindof similar, right?
Like you gotta show up for your team and perform.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There was a, and it, it, absolutely changed.
It changed in the time I was in the Navy, where as far as acceptance, right?
So when, when I was young and I had hair, it was, if you came in and were trashed thenight before case in point one morning, I was severely hung over and my, leading petty
(27:41):
officer, my LPO.
My boss came up and said, hey man, when you get out of bed, your eight hour day starts.
And he walked away.
So I know, was, it was bad.
I drank way too much.
ah But I got out of bed.
It was in the afternoon and my eight hour day started from that time.
But that was the acceptable thing.
It was, hey, yeah, we know we turned one on last night.
(28:04):
Hey, get up or hey, go sleep it off for a bit.
got you.
But then that changed where excessive drinking was not acceptable.
You're coming to work, you're still drunk or you're hungover or you're still affected bywhatever it was from the night before.
That was getting pushed to the wayside for acceptability.
That's not okay.
(28:24):
You can't come to work still trashed and be okay and help each other out because if I needyou to save my life and you're still drunk, that's not going to happen.
Right.
you're gonna put it all at risk.
and that, yeah, there's a lot that goes into that, so.
Well, and and just so people understand, like statistically, I know we talk a lot aboutthere's a lot of veterans in our industry.
(28:47):
And the current like known measure is it's roughly 7 % of the construction workforce isveterans, actually lower percentage than I expected.
I feel like it's maybe higher.
I don't know what they're counting as a veteran.
because there's people who have been, yeah, I don't know, because there's people whoaren't retired out of the military.
(29:10):
They leave under other classifications.
So I don't know how they're classifying that, right?
I'm kind of surprised because a lot of folks I've worked with in this industry have beenveterans.
So I feel like that might be higher.
I don't know.
Yeah, I think that's kind of low.
Yeah, it seems low to me.
Versus the people I know.
(29:31):
I'd say there's more like 10%.
Yeah, that I was expecting more like 10 to 15.
Still, though, it is higher than the national average of any other industry.
So we still have the most people in our industry who are veterans comparative to otherindustries.
So even at that smaller percentage rate, seemingly smaller percentage rate, it's stillhigher.
(29:52):
And so you've got a population who is already known to have some struggles due to priorservice.
PTSD is a common one that they struggle with.
There's also another term I learned a couple years ago.
It's like a adjustment disorder type.
That's what they classify it as, like learning how to be in the civilian world because itis different.
(30:14):
There's a name for it and I forget what it is.
And a lot of, depending on number of years of service, a lot of folks struggle with thatbecause there are a lot of differences between how the military and the civilian world
operates.
and they go through this period of learning to adjust to civilian life and processes.
So you already have this workforce coming into us who are incredible, amazing talent,amazing skillset, amazing individuals.
(30:41):
They already have these kind of challenges and struggles.
And then you start to pile on more of that of the construction industry.
Well, it's kind of.
It's kind of tough.
mean, you've talked about you do the troop checks.
We've talked about California.
No, sorry.
Construction Industry Alliance for.
Suicide prevention, man, I always get that one wrong.
(31:02):
There's also better help.
talked about there's 988, which you told me 988.
You can call anywhere you can call.
And not just call to say, hey, like I'm feeling like I'm going to hurt myself.
You can also just call and ask them to explain and clarify and educate on suicideprevention.
(31:22):
And I didn't know you could do that.
And I thought that was interesting that you can call and say, hey, I'm OK.
But we would love for one of your staff members to help educate on some of this stuff.
Yeah, and we found that out because I thought it was the same.
I thought it was you can only call this new 988 number if you're feeling a certain kind ofway and you need that immediate help.
So we're part of a group called Heart Hats with Hearts, which is for American HeartAssociation.
(31:47):
That's a roundtable for better health that focuses on a plethora stroke, heart health,mental health is starting to become a big topic for the last couple years.
Anyway, so.
we were discussing 988 we're discussing the best way to remove that stigma from the mentalhealth across the board and how we could do that and well what's 988 for so in the group
(32:12):
one of our folks said you know what let's and find out so we did we said hey we're fine wehave a question we are building mental health programs for our companies
We're working on improving mental health.
What is 988 and can you take a few minutes to talk to us?
And the gentleman said, absolutely.
What do want to know?
That's awesome.
(32:33):
Yeah.
mean, was huge.
He took about 10 minutes and kind of walked us through what 988 is, the use, how to useit, what the advantages are, resources.
You can text him, you can call him.
It's huge.
And if you need that education, you can say, hey, I'm okay.
(32:53):
If you want to call him, I'm fine.
Can you educate for about five minutes?
Do you have the time?
And I didn't, before you told me that, didn't, didn't know, one, I didn't know it was aresource and two, I didn't know that you could do that.
So I think that's a great, I don't think everybody should run out and call them right now,but like at some point it might be a good idea to call and just say, hey, can you explain
your resource?
What is it?
(33:14):
And then they have hard hat stickers, I think too, that you can get.
Is that, doesn't any?
it depends, think, don't get me lied to you.
had ours made.
yeah, we had, I'm trying to remember who.
I bet there's a resource to get those.
It might have been SAMHSA that I got some more stickers and some more kind of swagthrough.
(33:37):
But yeah, those are things that are huge.
Like we have, for me, I'd hand out stickers, hey, mental health awareness, 988.
And I'm like, hey, um we're.
you've either done or you've seen other companies do specifically during May to helppromote across workforces, to kind of help bring it forward, to talk about things?
(34:02):
So let's...
There's basically like a safety week, right?
So mental health awareness week, specifically for that month, right?
Where you have toolbox talks every single day.
There's a safety meeting.
If on a job site, some of the companies will bring everybody together at lunchtime andsay, hey, here's lunch.
We're going to talk about mental health and what this looks like.
(34:25):
Or we're going to talk about this specific topic for mental health.
And then here's lunch, right?
It's engagement that the biggest one that I see is engagement.
that's really the important part is the engagement needs to be there to get that momentum.
Right?
Because I could say, okay, here, but if I just walk away and there's no engagement backand forth, then it falls on deaf ears or just falls to the floor because no one's going to
(34:47):
grab it.
But if there's that engagement.
So that's what I see other companies doing.
That's what we do as well.
get out and, hey, how we doing?
We go on toolbox talks.
Hey, what's this look like?
Hey, what was our toolbox talk about?
What did you think?
Do you see anything that we can improve on for that toolbox?
Or do you see anything that we can improve on for the topic in general, knowing howimportant that topic is?
(35:08):
sure, that's a great idea.
I like that idea.
I remember long ago, far away in my career, toolbox talks were always about very specific,like where your PPE and ladders and different.
So it's good to have this as a very specific toolbox talk, a very focused moment for acrew to just say, hey, let's talk about signs of depression, maybe.
(35:32):
Eight things to think through and and then if you think that this might be a challengeHere's five resources, you know, and you can also come to me and we can connect you with
your ESA program.
Yes, they may say the right one.
Yeah EAP.
Why do I keep saying ESA?
I'm not sure I don't know
be ESA.
For us, it's EAP.
think it employee assistant program EAP, I think is what that's, yeah.
(35:54):
So I think I'm saying it wrong, but there's a lot of opportunities and resources outthere.
I think I caution people with the online stuff, like don't go to the Facebooks and theReddits for help.
You can get yourself way down in the rabbit hole there of like getting worse.
So just like ask folks like for the help, would say ask, you can ask your safetyprofessional at your workplace, your HR, if you don't have, you you have an HR department,
(36:20):
they often know who those resources are and where to access them and how to access them.
And then if your union, your union benefits department can typically help you find thosebecause they are different in our industry where if you're,
a union member that has to go directly through a union.
And a lot of those unions do have good benefits.
You just need to know that they're.
(36:40):
EAP is going to be different than the employer EAP because it's just different coverage.
Your stuff comes from the benefits and trust where the employer comes from a differentthing, but they're still an EAP.
That's a good point.
think for me, I think that the best resource, like if you don't know in your company whoto talk to or who would be the point of contact, ask HR.
(37:03):
They should know that hands down because they're the ones running the EAP, so they shouldknow.
Hey, we're the point of contact or the point of contact is this person or hey, here's acopy of the EAP.
There's our point of contacts.
Some companies, while you bring that up, they have cards like this.
But this is just for the suicide prevention lifeline specifically.
(37:28):
But they'll have, and I've been carrying it for a while, little beat up.
ah
But they'll have cards like this with their EAPs on it, right?
With their points of contact.
With, hey, if you get into A, B, and C, here's our EAP.
Here's a point of contact for this.
If you need legal assistance, here's a point of contact for this.
If you need a resource for medical, whether it be mental health or whether it be physicalhealth, here's the number.
(37:52):
Here's a point of contact, right?
Or it's a magnet on a refrigerator that you can take home and have that.
So some companies do that, and that's pretty cool.
that's pretty cool.
I don't have any of those, but I also know where all my resources are, so I don't needthem anymore.
But my husband's union, I think, has those little wallet cards that they give outdifferent times of the year for different things.
(38:14):
I had the underground dig service alert wallet card in my wallet still.
years, couple of years later, it's funny.
like, why do I still have this?
I don't do these anymore.
Yeah, well, I mean, is there any other?
I know we've, was trying to make sure we hit on all the good resources that you and Italked through previously.
I think we have.
Is there anything you think we've missed?
I mean, the only other one I would say is for the veterans in our industry is the VA.
(38:40):
Although I do understand there's a long wait time sometimes, and that's challenging.
Yeah, the VA is getting better, but in other ways, in my opinion, it's not getting better.
It's staying the same or going backwards.
um Yeah.
The challenge with the VA, feel, is the consistency.
One VA is going to be great.
(39:00):
You go to another VA, let's say you move or whatever and you're like, okay, this VA wasgreat.
I'm going to go here.
It's going to be great.
And they suck.
They absolutely are the worst.
And it's
point.
You're right.
it's so hard, right?
So when you find that good doctor, that good whatever at the VA, you like grabbing ontothat with both hands, both legs, and you're like, I'm letting you go because it's uh hard
(39:24):
thing to find for veterans, least in my experience.
Some folks are getting better than mine.
the VA, from what I've seen though, they're pretty progressive in their mental healthtreatments and the investigation of new methods of mental health.
They're, at least them and Kaiser in California at minimum, are further along than otherhealth groups when it comes to psychedelic treatments, ketamine.
(39:49):
The VA and Kaiser were the first ones to come up with this ketamine spray.
So the fact that they are actually further along in some of that than others, I think isinteresting and kind of great because they have a population that could use it.
So I hope to see more of that.
And I hope to see in the future the VA can ensure that they have the funding to continueto service the population.
(40:11):
But you're right, it does depend on the location.
I know we happen to live near a good one, but I know others don't.
And so that's unfortunate.
That is another resource though for our VA friends.
And then you have your union and your EAPs and your all those.
And as always, I tell people use that 988, use the CISP website for resources.
(40:36):
And yeah, any final thoughts from you, Shawn?
No, like mental health is still a struggle topic.
It's something that we're going to continually work towards to get better until, you know,it's not such an issue.
But I think my final plug would be get out, ask the question, pay attention.
(40:57):
Don't be afraid to notice something and bring it up.
Just saying, hey, how you doing, Kamina?
and be genuine about it.
Don't just put a check in the block, but have that genuine care for your common person andgo, how are you doing?
I notice you've been quiet lately.
I notice you've just kind of put your head down and been trudging along.
(41:18):
Everything good?
Just want to double check.
How's things going?
That can be huge.
That can sometimes, depending on situation, can make or break that whole thing.
So that's really it.
Mental health is going to be the hardest nut to crack.
because again like you said there's no one way to do it there's a million different thingsyou just gotta figure out what works best for you
(41:40):
Totally agree.
Well, I appreciate you joining the show again and who knows maybe you'll come back for athird time.
Thanks for having me, anytime, say when.
It should be uploaded hella f-
Thank you for tuning in to today's episode of The Construction Cafe.
We hope you found our conversation as inspiring as your next big project.
(42:04):
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(42:25):
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Let's keep building better together.
Welcome to the Construction Cafe, where the buzz of the construction industry meets thewarmth of a friendly conversation.
I'm your host, Tristen Magallanes.
Join me at our virtual cafe as we explore the foundations of construction culture, sip oncutting edge concepts, and amplify the unspoken voices in our industry.
So grab a cup of your favorite beverage, pull up a seat, and let's build more than juststructures, let's build connections.
(00:33):
This is the Construction Cafe.
Hi folks, welcome back to the Construction Cafe.
Really excited to welcome back Shawn Love.
(00:53):
You were with us for an episode back in, I think, January or February when we talkedthrough leadership.
And I really appreciate you coming back to talk about something I'm passionate about,which is the mental health of our folks in construction.
So welcome back, Shawn.
Maybe do a quick intro of yourself again for folks who maybe didn't hear the last episodeyou were in.
(01:13):
yeah, solid.
Hey, thanks for having me back.
Afternoon, hard charge to everybody out there and Tristan, thanks for having me backagain.
I'm a safety professional in construction industry.
Prior to falling into this role, I did some time in the Navy, retired as a chief pettyofficer.
So when we start talking about mental health or leadership or those things, those reallytie into that with that experience.
(01:34):
And I've of been doing that.
So I did that for almost 22 years.
been doing construction safety since 2017 2018.
Yeah, well, and I know the connection of veterans in construction industry, a lot ofpeople make that connection because a lot of folks leave their military roles and come to
(02:01):
work in our industry.
And I'm glad they do.
We have the use for their talent and skills and...
So I think when we first started talking about this, I was excited because there's somesimilarities in the military versus construction, the kind of environments you're in, the
folks you're around, and the way crews are run.
(02:22):
And that sort of spoke to both of us when we were talking through this.
And there's a lot of stigma around mental health in both spaces.
And you yourself have been in those spaces and I think can speak to that a bit more.
cause there's just a general discomfort about talking about your mental health, period.
(02:44):
Yeah.
Huge.
Yeah, would you say that you think that that's as a result of the environment?
it, do you think that the stigma might be gender related or just you're taught in thoseenvironments not to talk about it maybe?
I think when I look at it, a lot of it comes into play.
It's all encompassing.
(03:05):
You look at societal norms, you look at how we're trained, how we're taught, how we'reraised, the expectation.
When you look at mental health and want to specifically touch on, because I'm not theexpert, I'm going touch on PTSD for the military.
Back in the day, they were called War of the Roses and then Shellshock.
(03:26):
this and that, but no one knew how to deal with it because we didn't talk about it.
Right?
Growing up, if you were a guy, as a kid, right?
If you're a young boy, you get hurt, get up, dust it off, you're fucked, you're you'regonna be a man, you just don't worry about it.
(03:46):
You know, so that kind of comes into play and then that gets built upon through yourupbringing.
ah Junior high, high school.
Military, college, everywhere.
Guys don't talk about their feelings, right?
That was the thing.
We don't, we're a man, we don't talk about our feelings.
We trudge along and we just get it done and we deal with our stuff later.
(04:09):
In our own way, right?
Yeah, or just never deal with it and then we're seeing how that works out.
Kind of pops like a volcano sometimes.
So there's, I mean there's...
A lot of different things I feel that go into that, but all of those, right?
it's, it's, think people always look for the the single linear answer.
(04:31):
And I think this is one of those things that's, it's so complex.
And it's such a multi level layered mental health in general is multi level and layered.
And then when you add on all the things you mentioned, societal norms of, of being a youngboy, of being a young, a young man in high school of
being a young person in the military going to 20 years career in the military.
(04:54):
And I have a lot of family in the military, a lot of friends in the military, and I'veworked with a lot of folks in construction who were also veterans.
And hearing their experiences, it's kind of inevitable that you come with, they come outwith like, we don't talk about these things.
We just suffer through them.
Because somehow there's pride in suffering through, which I...
(05:15):
I'm like, well, can we get rid of that first?
I don't think we need to find pride in the suffering.
I think we can start to talk about it and deal with things differently.
you know, as I talked with Sonia last episode around suicide prevention in our industry,which is incredibly important, and I've done some, you know, digging into doing some
(05:35):
research.
And of course I like statistics.
I mean, I'm a touchy feely person and I also like stats and numbers.
So I think they tell a story.
And the Center for Construction Research and Training reported that 15 % of workersreported feeling anxiety or depression.
Right, but that's reported.
(05:56):
A lot of people report it.
But then 85 % of those people have never taught.
talk to anybody, sought help, reach out to anybody.
So even though they're reporting feeling this way, they're not reaching out to seek help.
So I guess kind of what I think of is how can we as leaders in our industry, safetyprofessionals in our industry, what can we do to help with that?
(06:20):
For me, that's why I kind of pause and think.
There's a lot of resources that we can utilize.
There's a lot of little things we can do in order to get better at that, The first thingis when you're not comfortable with that, with asking, hey, how are you doing?
And actually wanting to sit there and listen, right?
With active listening, go, hey, what is this person actually saying?
(06:41):
Like paying attention.
When you're not comfortable with that, that's gonna be a huge challenge.
So some folks that's gonna be the biggest challenge is getting over that initial hurdle oflack of a better term, breaking the upbringing that we had to actually talk about it,
right?
Cause that's the hardest part is to break that silence.
(07:03):
One of the easiest things and we used to call them troop checks or sailor checks, howeveryou want to, you put it when we see something, we...
we're noticing something that isn't going well with a group or a person and we go, hey, weneed to troop check.
Hey, we need to go check on our sailors and Marines.
We need to go look at this, right?
And we just pull them aside and go, hey, what's up, man?
(07:23):
How you doing, right?
You just have that conversation.
Because when you're both doing this, but you're sharing blood in the same mud, you have tofigure a way to stop doing this and start going side by side, right?
And so sometimes those conversations are
very easy, sometimes those conversations are very difficult to have.
(07:44):
So in the construction side, it's kind of the same mentality, Majority of constructionworkers are men.
Majority of the mindset, how I look at it, is we don't talk about feelings, we don't talkabout A, B, and C, right?
That's getting better, it still happens.
When we, again,
If someone's having a hard time, hey, can you come out and talk to someone?
(08:07):
So, hey, I noticed something.
Can we do a troop check?
Yeah, absolutely.
And just come out and go, hey, how you doing?
You see that person pulling the sides.
Hey, you got a minute?
Hey, man, I noticed.
Hey, know, this is going on.
You're awful quiet.
Like, we good?
Like, everything going on?
Just curious, man.
Want to make sure you're good.
Yeah, I like I like the idea of the troop checks, you know, it it kind of givespermission, even though people don't need it.
(08:32):
It gives permission to to say what's really on their minds with hopefully someone thatthey think is a safe person to talk to, who also may very well have here's these three
resources I think might be helpful.
And if you need help.
accessing them, let me know.
I'll help you make those phone calls because I think that's part of it too.
(08:54):
We might have the resources, but taking that first step to accessing them can feeloverwhelming.
There's a lot of shame involved in like, I need help.
So I'm less than now, or I'm just so depressed.
I can't make that phone call.
And sometimes they just need that first step help.
And then you let
the professionals that are trained to help folks in that methods, you know, do that.
(09:18):
And sometimes really just having, you know, that other person at work genuinely ask youhow you're doing and know that they truly care can make a world of difference in someone's
life.
That's how I see it.
You know,
that's all it'll take is that one interaction of, I'm concerned, I'm genuinely concerned.
(09:39):
I'm not just going, hey, how are you doing?
I'm genuinely concerned with your well-being.
I noticed something that's outside of the norm.
Hey, is everything good?
How's everything?
How's A, B, and C?
I know you were going through struggles with a parent or a sibling or a spouse or whathave you.
Hey, how's that going, man?
Hey, I know that you haven't talked to you so and so for a while.
(10:00):
How's that?
Like just that one interaction can sometimes change the entire outcome.
Right.
And just, just having that there is, it can be huge.
And again, it goes back to resources, right?
You've got the employee assistance program.
There's that company should have, I'm hoping every company has, which gets into
(10:24):
legal assistance or mental health or whatever it may be, right?
If you need help with getting the will or whatever, those programs are for that.
It's also there for counseling for therapy for whichever you may require or may want tolook at.
Along with that, so you talked about Sonia with the Construction Industry Alliance forSuicide Prevention.
(10:46):
To say that slow, I'll start tripping over my
always trip up on that one and if I try to say the abbreviation, I say it backwards.
uh
so that's huge, just industry-wide, because that hasn't been a thing, right?
It's the last few years that's really gotten huge, and the message has gotten out theremore.
So again, resources.
There's just an abundance.
(11:07):
Mental health first aid, like there's so many things that you
the construction industry Alliance for Suicide Prevention, they just all theirs is theyjust have a plethora of options and they're all free to access none of it like you don't
have to pay for it.
They can help companies develop programs and I would say we as individuals can also justtake the time to
(11:31):
do a little bit of our own education around things.
Sure, we do first aid.
There's also mental health first aid training, which Sonia was telling me was like 60 to90 minutes, the initial training.
So I was like, you, I think I joked like we do scroll on social media more than that in amonth.
So just commit to doing the 60 minutes and maybe you could help somebody someday.
You know, I think it's also just a genuine shift we're seeing.
(11:55):
I hope we're seeing in our society that everyone has feelings.
regardless of your gender, and we should all feel safe to talk about them and to seek helpwhen needed.
And I think mental health in general in our society has also changed with difficulty toaccess help, which is frustrating.
But like you mentioned when we were chatting, there's easier things to, like a...
(12:20):
rather than making an appointment with like, we have Kaiser in California, right?
Rather than trying to get into Kaiser's mental health system, which could take a very longtime, or even the VA has a very long waiting time.
um You can, there's like services like BetterHelp.
And I think you mentioned, it's like a, can even text and interact with a therapist orsomebody.
You can use our app, you can call.
(12:42):
And a lot of employers are offering those services alongside the normal
traditional healthcare systems.
And I know of BetterHelp.
I think I used it a long time ago.
There's other ones similar though that just make it really easy to just seek that help andhave those questions without going through all these waiting periods.
(13:04):
Yeah.
And then you also have the cost of it too, right?
So looking, so I did my mental health first aid course because as just as a safety personalone, we strive to or should strive to improve health and safety for our coworkers, our
company all around, right?
That's everything.
That's not just ladders and fall protection, scaffolds and excavations.
(13:28):
That's also
Making sure that you're not walking into a hostile environment.
Making sure that your health is mental health as well.
for me, I think that that's a role as a safety professional that we kind of have a handin.
That's just how I look at it.
Not everyone agrees, but that's how I look at it.
Because I my folks to go home in the same fashion that they came to work.
(13:52):
Maybe a little bit heavier on the wallet, and that's about it.
ah
Yeah.
the cost is insane.
Like if you look at BetterHelp and then you look at an in-person local place, In-personlocal place is $180 an hour.
Easy, easily, if not more, yeah.
and on the low end right where I think better help I forget what the cost was but it wasnot it was like once it was like 300 a month but that's not an in-person that's like just
(14:28):
online texting messaging journaling that type there's my in-person availability for thatprogram however it's there it's a resource it's
Well, and I even, when I was trying to find different sources for mental health assistancefor one of my foster kiddos, I remember I found this newer program where it was like
(14:55):
online gaming, but you're in a small closed group.
And so it's closed off.
It's not public.
You go in and it's like six to eight people and there's like a therapist in there with youor counselor.
And so you it's like group therapy, but you're playing a game.
So it helps you not feel so like that stigma isn't as is like right in front and center.
(15:16):
So you're kind of interacting.
And I forget the games that they play.
What's the my goodness.
It's super popular right now because a movie just came out with all Minecraft.
Yeah.
So they do Minecraft environments.
and you can run around and you're building stuff, but you're talking to people and theyhad the, they had it for adults and then they made it for like teenagers.
And I want to say the cost was only a couple hundred bucks.
(15:39):
It was like 150 bucks or it wasn't super crazy.
And I was like, that is such a great idea of like shifting access to like talking.
when you need to, you know, because it just creates a little bit of, and so I thought thatwas kind of cool.
I found that last year or the year before.
Going back to sort of this idea though, you brought up, you you feel it's the safetyprofessionals, partial responsibility on top of everyone else's to like lean in and help
(16:10):
with the mental health side of things.
And I kind of agree because our physical wellbeing is always going to be affected.
either convert, you know, before or after with our mental health, like they fit together,in my opinion.
And, you know, thinking back to my days where I helped like write up safety reports, whatusually would happen is someone would get injured, they would go to the first aid clinic
(16:33):
or whatever, and they would slap down a prescription of opioids.
That was very common when I was doing these reports.
And then came this massive wave of opioid addiction in our industry society as well.
It's still there.
It's still a problem.
And I was looking at the stats on that before we talked because I felt like it was kind ofan important thing to talk through.
(17:00):
And man, I'm going to read some statistics.
In 2022, synthetic opioids like fentanyl were involved in 75 % of overdose deaths amongconstruction workers.
So these are just construction workers.
In 2022, over 110 construction workers died from workplace overdoses in California alone.
(17:24):
Like 18 % of workplace construction deaths were overdoses basically in 2022.
But that like
I want people to let that sink in.
Let's just round it.
20 % of construction related deaths had to deal with overdoses.
So for us to think that that's not something we should pay attention to is kind of, Ithink, missing the mark.
(17:45):
Yeah.
Now, we can't fix that, but can we help?
Can we get them to the right places?
Yes, and we have, I think, that obligation to do so.
Yeah, I think we do too.
It's a challenge for like, as a safety professional, should my actual responsibility bewith mental health?
Like should I be the one that's mental health first aid?
Should I be driving this?
(18:07):
Or is it, hey, we need to make sure that we have a program in place.
We need to make sure we have a protocol in place.
We need to make sure we have something in place that addresses mental health assistance,right?
Whether that's the EAP, whatever that looks like.
So I think, and that's just a range of what do I want to take?
So many options.
(18:28):
I think that it's going to be up to the company and then the person really to say, hey,this is what I'm willing to take on.
But I do feel that as a safety guy, we own a piece of that.
That's safety, right?
If we notice that we to do something, we can't just sit there and go,
Right.
Well, but if yeah.
(18:49):
Well, and then you look in, I mean, one of my first or second episodes I ever recorded forConstruction Cafe was around a lot of it was around mental health.
But I talked about alcohol use in our industry.
And I've always kind of joked kind of kind of, but also, yes.
on the industry taught me how to drink.
Like, it's just kind of true.
(19:12):
And all of our outings and social outings were based around, you know, alcohol and alcoholis in and of itself a depressant.
Am I saying people, no one should drink on the planet, you shouldn't enjoy a nice glass ofwine or cocktail?
No, I'm not saying that at all.
I am saying that this industry heavily promotes that as a method of socialization andsomething to do after work to like, blow off the steam.
(19:35):
And I don't know that that's the best thing anymore.
More stats, fun times.
17 % of construction workers reported consistent heavy alcohol consumption.
Self-reported.
that's what then those are the ones we know about.
Yeah.
the ones that are self-reporting.
So that means there's a pretty good chance that one person on your crew is a heavy drinkerand might be coming to work intoxicated or hungover.
(20:01):
Could be.
Could be.
the physical safety on your job site.
it does.
For that reason, there are things that should already be in place.
Like we do reasonable suspicion training so that you are able to identify that and go,hey, hold on.
You smell like a brewery.
home.
(20:22):
Or we were able to see those signs of intoxication or whatever, maybe of unsafe behavior.
And we're able to remove that behavior, hopefully get it.
on the side and go, hey, let's reevaluate this and then have a better decision movingforward of what needs to happen, right?
Yeah, for sure.
And, you know, I just think also about, you know, that person comes to work, it's a 90plus degree day, they're hungover, then they're going to enter into heat illness because
(20:50):
they were not hydrated enough, and then they're going to cause potentially a problembecause they dropped something on the person next to him because like the trickle effect
of those actions on a project site can have real, you know, ramifications.
And I think it's important for us to
you know, address it for the safety of everyone, but also like we care about those people.
We want them to be happy and living, you know, good lives.
(21:12):
And when 20 % of them are saying they're heavily consuming alcohol, I think we should payattention to that.
The other thing I think a lot about is this ongoing, there's a construction laborshortage, right?
Increasing demand of
of construction projects with less labor and an aging workforce still as well.
(21:34):
And then you've got folks that are coming work in 10, 12 hours a day potentially doinghard work in the heat or the cold or whatever.
What is that doing to them physically and monthly?
That's got a huge impact.
I think to put a kind of disclaimer out there though, I think we, I see a lot of like whenwe're doing hiring, when companies are hiring, there's a lot of people that are trying or
(22:00):
hired, whether it be union, non-union.
So if we're talking union, we're pulling folks out of union hall saying, Hey, we need tothis position.
I think there's, there's people there.
The challenge I know looking at what we do and what others do.
is that it's skilled labor, right?
It's a shortage of the skilled experience.
So you might have a hand out there.
Yeah, I can push a broom, I can do A, B, and C, right?
(22:23):
But if I need that person to be a pipe layer, they'd look at me like I have six heads.
Or if I need them to go do something that's trade or skill specific that they may nothave, right?
So I just want to throw kind of throw it out to where, there is a shortage, right?
But I think the bigger shortage is the shortage of skilled and experienced labor.
Right, skilled, experienced tradesmen.
(22:44):
I don't want to say just labor, just tradesmen across the board.
Trades folks.
So, yeah, but going back to the long hours that can have a huge impact, right?
Because now we're talking about high stress.
We're talking about more hours of work than we're off work.
we're, all of that just compacts, compacts, compacts, compacts, right?
(23:05):
Now we're talking about high blood pressure.
We're talking about...
Mmm.
everything we just brought up, right?
So when for me it was when I was a heavy drinker, it was going out had a long ass day, 12whatever hours.
I'm to go get trashed.
I'm going to go drink off the long day because that's thing to do.
(23:28):
Yeah.
Right.
And when you would get called in all the time, I would go home.
I would make a rum and Coke.
right there it wasn't they were like I would drop my bags go to the freezer grab the rumopen the fridge grab the coke grab the glass boom boom stir slam that one down so that
they called me I could say sorry I've already had a drink I can't come to work.
(23:49):
interesting.
So there's that aspect.
that's just for me.
Yeah, oh so there's those as well.
Yeah, it's such a huge impact.
When you have all this, you have to be able to do your best to mitigate all that, right?
And how to identify that and where to step in and go, hey, maybe we can do this now, orhey, maybe we do this.
(24:15):
Let's look at.
taking a break or whatever that
Well, and I think that there's also the I just because I'm thinking of my dad when I wasgrowing up and he's a carpenter and the people I was around because he knew different
crews and folks he worked with.
There was also this this sort of immediately off shift, somebody had a cooler and you'dcrack some crack beers open together in the parking lot and then you would drive home and
(24:41):
then you would
do that again with your local neighborhood.
it was part of it.
I remember.
And again, this is my experience and my memories, but and I'm not suppositioning everybodydoes this.
part of it was my his body hurt.
He was tired.
And rather than rather than poppin pills, there's those that drink to not feel thephysical pain of what some of their jobs are doing to them when they're working.
(25:10):
He was an union, but
you know, it could be five, six, some of them end up working six days a week and they'redriving far, you know, all just all this difficulty.
So like, what can we do to put in like a healthier aspect or healthier habits of dealingwith the physical pain their bodies might go through or the exhaustion that they might
(25:33):
feel or just the separation of being away from their families for so much because of howfar they have to go.
There's emotional struggles there too.
There's no one single answer for any of this, which is what makes it so challenging, Ithink.
ah
Yeah, there's no one right answer.
You gotta do what you can, I guess.
(25:54):
Not I guess, you do what you can and how you can, right?
Whether that's training or checking in or whatever you can.
And if people drink, that's up to them.
Like, you hand to your business, go hand to what you need to do.
I just look at it, just be responsible about it, right?
If you know it's gonna be 110 degrees tomorrow.
maybe drinking a bunch of beer the night before may not be good idea because you are goingto be horribly affected in 110 degrees.
(26:19):
ah So there's that.
I don't want to sit like I'm telling people don't drink or anything.
That's both under your business, but at least do a response.
And being responsible about it does mean thinking about the next day and the effects ofthose things and how that is for the rest of the people around you that you are also
responsible.
(26:39):
Like, I think it I think of it as I'm responsible.
It's just like a sport, right?
I'm responsible to show up for my team.
And our performance of our whole team is dependent on all of us and how we show up.
And if I show up having, you know, I'm thinking of
I don't know, volleyball for instance, or something like that.
If I show up and I'm hungover, I'm dehydrated, I can't really, I'm wobbly becausewhatever, and I didn't sleep well, I'm gonna let my team down.
(27:07):
I imagine, I have to imagine, and I don't know for sure, but the military has to be kindof similar, right?
Like you gotta show up for your team and perform.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There was a, and it, it, absolutely changed.
It changed in the time I was in the Navy, where as far as acceptance, right?
So when, when I was young and I had hair, it was, if you came in and were trashed thenight before case in point one morning, I was severely hung over and my, leading petty
(27:41):
officer, my LPO.
My boss came up and said, hey man, when you get out of bed, your eight hour day starts.
And he walked away.
So I know, was, it was bad.
I drank way too much.
ah But I got out of bed.
It was in the afternoon and my eight hour day started from that time.
But that was the acceptable thing.
It was, hey, yeah, we know we turned one on last night.
(28:04):
Hey, get up or hey, go sleep it off for a bit.
got you.
But then that changed where excessive drinking was not acceptable.
You're coming to work, you're still drunk or you're hungover or you're still affected bywhatever it was from the night before.
That was getting pushed to the wayside for acceptability.
That's not okay.
(28:24):
You can't come to work still trashed and be okay and help each other out because if I needyou to save my life and you're still drunk, that's not going to happen.
Right.
you're gonna put it all at risk.
and that, yeah, there's a lot that goes into that, so.
Well, and and just so people understand, like statistically, I know we talk a lot aboutthere's a lot of veterans in our industry.
(28:47):
And the current like known measure is it's roughly 7 % of the construction workforce isveterans, actually lower percentage than I expected.
I feel like it's maybe higher.
I don't know what they're counting as a veteran.
because there's people who have been, yeah, I don't know, because there's people whoaren't retired out of the military.
(29:10):
They leave under other classifications.
So I don't know how they're classifying that, right?
I'm kind of surprised because a lot of folks I've worked with in this industry have beenveterans.
So I feel like that might be higher.
I don't know.
Yeah, I think that's kind of low.
Yeah, it seems low to me.
Versus the people I know.
(29:31):
I'd say there's more like 10%.
Yeah, that I was expecting more like 10 to 15.
Still, though, it is higher than the national average of any other industry.
So we still have the most people in our industry who are veterans comparative to otherindustries.
So even at that smaller percentage rate, seemingly smaller percentage rate, it's stillhigher.
(29:52):
And so you've got a population who is already known to have some struggles due to priorservice.
PTSD is a common one that they struggle with.
There's also another term I learned a couple years ago.
It's like a adjustment disorder type.
That's what they classify it as, like learning how to be in the civilian world because itis different.
(30:14):
There's a name for it and I forget what it is.
And a lot of, depending on number of years of service, a lot of folks struggle with thatbecause there are a lot of differences between how the military and the civilian world
operates.
and they go through this period of learning to adjust to civilian life and processes.
So you already have this workforce coming into us who are incredible, amazing talent,amazing skillset, amazing individuals.
(30:41):
They already have these kind of challenges and struggles.
And then you start to pile on more of that of the construction industry.
Well, it's kind of.
It's kind of tough.
mean, you've talked about you do the troop checks.
We've talked about California.
No, sorry.
Construction Industry Alliance for.
Suicide prevention, man, I always get that one wrong.
(31:02):
There's also better help.
talked about there's 988, which you told me 988.
You can call anywhere you can call.
And not just call to say, hey, like I'm feeling like I'm going to hurt myself.
You can also just call and ask them to explain and clarify and educate on suicideprevention.
(31:22):
And I didn't know you could do that.
And I thought that was interesting that you can call and say, hey, I'm OK.
But we would love for one of your staff members to help educate on some of this stuff.
Yeah, and we found that out because I thought it was the same.
I thought it was you can only call this new 988 number if you're feeling a certain kind ofway and you need that immediate help.
So we're part of a group called Heart Hats with Hearts, which is for American HeartAssociation.
(31:47):
That's a roundtable for better health that focuses on a plethora stroke, heart health,mental health is starting to become a big topic for the last couple years.
Anyway, so.
we were discussing 988 we're discussing the best way to remove that stigma from the mentalhealth across the board and how we could do that and well what's 988 for so in the group
(32:12):
one of our folks said you know what let's and find out so we did we said hey we're fine wehave a question we are building mental health programs for our companies
We're working on improving mental health.
What is 988 and can you take a few minutes to talk to us?
And the gentleman said, absolutely.
What do want to know?
That's awesome.
(32:33):
Yeah.
mean, was huge.
He took about 10 minutes and kind of walked us through what 988 is, the use, how to useit, what the advantages are, resources.
You can text him, you can call him.
It's huge.
And if you need that education, you can say, hey, I'm okay.
(32:53):
If you want to call him, I'm fine.
Can you educate for about five minutes?
Do you have the time?
And I didn't, before you told me that, didn't, didn't know, one, I didn't know it was aresource and two, I didn't know that you could do that.
So I think that's a great, I don't think everybody should run out and call them right now,but like at some point it might be a good idea to call and just say, hey, can you explain
your resource?
What is it?
(33:14):
And then they have hard hat stickers, I think too, that you can get.
Is that, doesn't any?
it depends, think, don't get me lied to you.
had ours made.
yeah, we had, I'm trying to remember who.
I bet there's a resource to get those.
It might have been SAMHSA that I got some more stickers and some more kind of swagthrough.
(33:37):
But yeah, those are things that are huge.
Like we have, for me, I'd hand out stickers, hey, mental health awareness, 988.
And I'm like, hey, um we're.
you've either done or you've seen other companies do specifically during May to helppromote across workforces, to kind of help bring it forward, to talk about things?
(34:02):
So let's...
There's basically like a safety week, right?
So mental health awareness week, specifically for that month, right?
Where you have toolbox talks every single day.
There's a safety meeting.
If on a job site, some of the companies will bring everybody together at lunchtime andsay, hey, here's lunch.
We're going to talk about mental health and what this looks like.
(34:25):
Or we're going to talk about this specific topic for mental health.
And then here's lunch, right?
It's engagement that the biggest one that I see is engagement.
that's really the important part is the engagement needs to be there to get that momentum.
Right?
Because I could say, okay, here, but if I just walk away and there's no engagement backand forth, then it falls on deaf ears or just falls to the floor because no one's going to
(34:47):
grab it.
But if there's that engagement.
So that's what I see other companies doing.
That's what we do as well.
get out and, hey, how we doing?
We go on toolbox talks.
Hey, what's this look like?
Hey, what was our toolbox talk about?
What did you think?
Do you see anything that we can improve on for that toolbox?
Or do you see anything that we can improve on for the topic in general, knowing howimportant that topic is?
(35:08):
sure, that's a great idea.
I like that idea.
I remember long ago, far away in my career, toolbox talks were always about very specific,like where your PPE and ladders and different.
So it's good to have this as a very specific toolbox talk, a very focused moment for acrew to just say, hey, let's talk about signs of depression, maybe.
(35:32):
Eight things to think through and and then if you think that this might be a challengeHere's five resources, you know, and you can also come to me and we can connect you with
your ESA program.
Yes, they may say the right one.
Yeah EAP.
Why do I keep saying ESA?
I'm not sure I don't know
be ESA.
For us, it's EAP.
think it employee assistant program EAP, I think is what that's, yeah.
(35:54):
So I think I'm saying it wrong, but there's a lot of opportunities and resources outthere.
I think I caution people with the online stuff, like don't go to the Facebooks and theReddits for help.
You can get yourself way down in the rabbit hole there of like getting worse.
So just like ask folks like for the help, would say ask, you can ask your safetyprofessional at your workplace, your HR, if you don't have, you you have an HR department,
(36:20):
they often know who those resources are and where to access them and how to access them.
And then if your union, your union benefits department can typically help you find thosebecause they are different in our industry where if you're,
a union member that has to go directly through a union.
And a lot of those unions do have good benefits.
You just need to know that they're.
(36:40):
EAP is going to be different than the employer EAP because it's just different coverage.
Your stuff comes from the benefits and trust where the employer comes from a differentthing, but they're still an EAP.
That's a good point.
think for me, I think that the best resource, like if you don't know in your company whoto talk to or who would be the point of contact, ask HR.
(37:03):
They should know that hands down because they're the ones running the EAP, so they shouldknow.
Hey, we're the point of contact or the point of contact is this person or hey, here's acopy of the EAP.
There's our point of contacts.
Some companies, while you bring that up, they have cards like this.
But this is just for the suicide prevention lifeline specifically.
(37:28):
But they'll have, and I've been carrying it for a while, little beat up.
ah
But they'll have cards like this with their EAPs on it, right?
With their points of contact.
With, hey, if you get into A, B, and C, here's our EAP.
Here's a point of contact for this.
If you need legal assistance, here's a point of contact for this.
If you need a resource for medical, whether it be mental health or whether it be physicalhealth, here's the number.
(37:52):
Here's a point of contact, right?
Or it's a magnet on a refrigerator that you can take home and have that.
So some companies do that, and that's pretty cool.
that's pretty cool.
I don't have any of those, but I also know where all my resources are, so I don't needthem anymore.
But my husband's union, I think, has those little wallet cards that they give outdifferent times of the year for different things.
(38:14):
I had the underground dig service alert wallet card in my wallet still.
years, couple of years later, it's funny.
like, why do I still have this?
I don't do these anymore.
Yeah, well, I mean, is there any other?
I know we've, was trying to make sure we hit on all the good resources that you and Italked through previously.
I think we have.
Is there anything you think we've missed?
I mean, the only other one I would say is for the veterans in our industry is the VA.
(38:40):
Although I do understand there's a long wait time sometimes, and that's challenging.
Yeah, the VA is getting better, but in other ways, in my opinion, it's not getting better.
It's staying the same or going backwards.
um Yeah.
The challenge with the VA, feel, is the consistency.
One VA is going to be great.
(39:00):
You go to another VA, let's say you move or whatever and you're like, okay, this VA wasgreat.
I'm going to go here.
It's going to be great.
And they suck.
They absolutely are the worst.
And it's
point.
You're right.
it's so hard, right?
So when you find that good doctor, that good whatever at the VA, you like grabbing ontothat with both hands, both legs, and you're like, I'm letting you go because it's uh hard
(39:24):
thing to find for veterans, least in my experience.
Some folks are getting better than mine.
the VA, from what I've seen though, they're pretty progressive in their mental healthtreatments and the investigation of new methods of mental health.
They're, at least them and Kaiser in California at minimum, are further along than otherhealth groups when it comes to psychedelic treatments, ketamine.
(39:49):
The VA and Kaiser were the first ones to come up with this ketamine spray.
So the fact that they are actually further along in some of that than others, I think isinteresting and kind of great because they have a population that could use it.
So I hope to see more of that.
And I hope to see in the future the VA can ensure that they have the funding to continueto service the population.
(40:11):
But you're right, it does depend on the location.
I know we happen to live near a good one, but I know others don't.
And so that's unfortunate.
That is another resource though for our VA friends.
And then you have your union and your EAPs and your all those.
And as always, I tell people use that 988, use the CISP website for resources.
(40:36):
And yeah, any final thoughts from you, Shawn?
No, like mental health is still a struggle topic.
It's something that we're going to continually work towards to get better until, you know,it's not such an issue.
But I think my final plug would be get out, ask the question, pay attention.
(40:57):
Don't be afraid to notice something and bring it up.
Just saying, hey, how you doing, Kamina?
and be genuine about it.
Don't just put a check in the block, but have that genuine care for your common person andgo, how are you doing?
I notice you've been quiet lately.
I notice you've just kind of put your head down and been trudging along.
(41:18):
Everything good?
Just want to double check.
How's things going?
That can be huge.
That can sometimes, depending on situation, can make or break that whole thing.
So that's really it.
Mental health is going to be the hardest nut to crack.
because again like you said there's no one way to do it there's a million different thingsyou just gotta figure out what works best for you
(41:40):
Totally agree.
Well, I appreciate you joining the show again and who knows maybe you'll come back for athird time.
Thanks for having me, anytime, say when.
It should be uploaded hella f-
Thank you for tuning in to today's episode of The Construction Cafe.
We hope you found our conversation as inspiring as your next big project.
(42:04):
Remember, you can dive deeper into the resources and topics we discuss by connecting withus on LinkedIn and Instagram.
Just search for The Construction Cafe.
Don't miss out on future episodes.
Be sure to follow us on Spotify, Podbean, and Apple Podcasts to keep the conversationgoing.
If you're passionate about the construction industry and have a story to share, we'd loveto hear from you.
(42:25):
Visit our website at the constructioncafe.com and drop us a note.
Let's keep building better together.
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