July 2, 2025 • 38 mins
What do robots, layout, and generational grit have in common? Tristen sits down with Sandra Grigoletti of CSC Robotic Engineering to explore the evolution of construction layout — from strings and sticks to SLAM-enabled robots. They dig into how robotic solutions are reshaping jobsite ergonomics, safety, and equity for future generations of craft workers. It's a nerdy, heartfelt, and forward-looking episode you won't want to miss.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Welcome to the Construction Cafe, where the buzz of the construction industry meets thewarmth of a friendly conversation.
I'm your host, Tristen Magallanes.
Join me at our virtual cafe as we explore the foundations of construction culture, sip oncutting edge concepts, and amplify the unspoken voices in our industry.
So grab a cup of your favorite beverage, pull up a seat, and let's build more than juststructures, let's build connections.
(00:33):
This is the Construction Cafe.
Hey folks, welcome back to the Construction Cafe.
I know it's been a couple weeks since we've released an episode.
(00:53):
We've been taking it easy, paying attention to things in life.
And I'm super excited.
I'm joined by a guest today.
Her name is Sandra Grigoletti.
I'm sorry if I completely messed your name up.
I'm not as great with the Italian names.
So Sandra, welcome for joining us.
Thanks for having me.
And you are with CSC Robotic Engineering, right?
(01:15):
Did I get it right?
Okay.
So robots equals yay fun for me, because I love robots.
I know it's kind of a touchy subject for some people in the industry.
But before we dive into our topic today, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourjourney in construction and what brought you here?
And I would just love to know more.
(01:35):
So it starts with when I was 10 ish, my dad got into the electrical union.
So when I was a little kid, my dad was teaching me how to rock pipe and change ceilingfans like every 12 year old girl needs to know.
So grew up in the trades, but I'm of that gen X slash millennial age where it was go tocollege, get an education, spend a billion dollars.
(01:59):
So went and got a pretty piece of paper from DePaul University.
out of college in 09.
You know, things were great back then.
So I was with Home Depot at that point, kind of cut my teeth playing with contractors.
um And then I just kind of continued to go down that construction path in the sales andinnovation space.
I worked for a company that's known for its innovations, fell in love with the very firstof the robots that are on job sites, the robotic total station.
(02:26):
And my life kind of snowballed from there.
I'm pretty recently joined CSC here.
And I think they have a really cool robot that I'm getting to bring to construction sites.
And like you, I'm just a huge nerd for robots.
you know, it's, it's corny to say, but I kind of feel like I found my dream job.
And I'm getting to bring robots to people like my dad.
(02:48):
Well, my dad's a nerd.
I'm curious, what does your dad say about robots and construction?
Okay, so my dad has done the typical, it's gonna steal my job and I like to throw back athim, okay dad, wasn't the Yankee screwdriver gonna steal your job?
And I know Yankee screwdriver is probably not something anyone but an electrician, olderelectrician on this right here.
(03:11):
But you know, I mean, it's the same thing as power cords for tools.
Who's using a corded tool anymore?
That's obsolete.
Did that cost more labor?
Yeah, probably.
But the robots are just the next evolution.
And for me, the number one thing I'd go when my dad's giving me a hard time, I'd go, dad,hey, show me your hands.
his hands don't fully extend anymore because he's held a hammer drill for 30 years.
(03:37):
That is like my direct, because my robot essentially holds hammer drills, it's reallypersonal to me to change the industry.
I don't want my nephews and potential nieces, I don't have any nieces yet,
But potential nieces to go into this industry and get broken like I saw my dad in myarticles.
Yeah.
And you know, it's interesting you bring that up because my dad has pretty roughshoulders, I would say.
(04:01):
Like, I've seen him struggle with, like, rotator cuff type problems.
He probably should have had surgery and is probably going to continue to ignore that hiswhole life.
But that's, to me, is a result of the overuse of, you know, being a carpenter.
So that is that's interesting and interesting that we're fueled by,
that passion we have of watching our fathers go through this industry and the challengesthat they've faced and us observing them, right?
(04:26):
And yeah, it's incredibly fun to, I think, talk to.
I've talked to this about a couple with a couple guests that I feel like it would be funto have some like father daughter episodes where we bring on the dads.
And I think it would be super fun.
because there's probably at least five or six at this point who have been heavilyinfluenced by their father's journey in this industry and the exposure.
(04:51):
just like you, my dad was having me build stuff with him in the garage.
And he also taught me how to change oil and rotate tires when I was nine.
So he taught me a lot of what I would consider for the day back then, non-traditional girlthings, but I'm thankful.
Yep, me too.
Very much so.
I also don't want to change tires and rotate tires anymore.
(05:16):
I luckily missed out on most of the car stuff.
I've got a brother who took most of the car stuff, I was always apt to, I did like techtheater.
I liked building stuff and it breaks my heart a little bit that I wasn't 10 years youngerbecause I think I probably would have followed him straight into the trades.
And that's one of the things I'm super passionate about in my roles of showing youngwomen, especially, hey, it's not the backbreaking labor.
(05:43):
Well, it soon won't be the backbreaking labor.
it's like in the middle here, right?
I think we're in the middle of like this revolution that's happening.
not only the robot that your company has, I mean, it's that you you have a robot with CSC.
But what we want to talk about today is specifically you brought forward this idea oftalking about visual based layout.
(06:07):
And I would because I just never know listening listenership wise.
what that, if everybody even understands what that means.
And I'd be shocked if many people understood the intimacies of layout.
And I've got field experience that shows that there's a lot of gaps in knowledge.
And this isn't, your dad as a carpenter can probably smoke a three, four, five, right?
(06:31):
You know, absolutely, but.
I mean, I've watched a plumber do a three, four, five using a three inch by four inch byfive inch triangle.
And I'd ask them, are you measuring in 64ths of an inch because your two inch error thatyou're claiming isn't there?
It's because of the tiny, you know, but I think most, I mean, if I say a three, four, fiveto my electrician father, he, huh?
(06:53):
Yeah, I mean, yeah.
So I mean, the process of layout is a little bit.
mystifying and I thought it would be, you know, a good, I love your show first off.
And so I thought it'd be a thing to like, kind of let's talk about like the evolution oflayout, the evolution of, of, you know, the next steps to that layout process, which are
going to be robots and how maybe there's a different way than what, what the most commonmethod of robotic layout is today.
(07:20):
and I think what's interesting when we were having some of our early on discussions, youkind of what alluded to brought forward is that this, we'll call it robotic layout for
sake of I guess, anything calling in anything else.
If that is very accurate, other robotic systems can utilize that information for othertasks that it can perform.
(07:46):
in conjunction with our trade workers.
So I think that that is the this is like the foundation piece almost if you will.
play on words.
I love a good pun.
I kill myself some days.
Here all week.
So explain to me what the are there challenges with layout?
when it comes to transitioning it from sort of this manual to this robotic process andwhat they just just like lay that lay that out.
(08:13):
Yeah, so let me kind of start with the beginning, right?
Strings and sticks.
Okay, so for X number of millennial, we have been using literal strings and sticks tobuild really cool stuff, right?
I like to say we went from the Roman Empire, the pyramids, all the way to the Sears Tower,were pretty much built with the same strings and sticks.
And sure, the strings and sticks have gotten fancier, and we call them tape measures andplumb bobs and laser levels, but ultimately, strings and sticks.
(08:39):
Mm-hmm.
You get a pretty good result.
If you know your trig, your dad, I'm sure, smoked that trig.
My dad can put his pipes in the walls once your dad lays them out.
But we've been doing that methodology.
And it localizes the error, right?
Because I'm going to typically measure off of this grid line.
And I'm not getting the whole.
(08:59):
Project in that that one measurement, but just a short measurement so that works.
Okay, so fast forward We finally get to the the millennial and we bring in robotic totalstations So robotic total station just to give your viewers who may not even know what it
is It's a tool that's used by a surveyor essentially It's an optic and a shiny object thatit follows around and it's able to know where you are These tools are great Amazing pieces
(09:24):
of technology, but they are not an easy thing
to use.
My whole job for a period of my life was teaching people how to use these tools and thenhelping them when things went wrong.
So these tools are gonna, you know, they're gonna wanna be given points that will tellthem where they are.
Well, if I'm the electrician and you're the carpenter and we're both using robotic totalstations and you go off of points A, B and C and I go off of points B, C and D, we end up
(09:53):
with a slightly different answer.
Now, this is right.
Well, this is
Technically you both are in your own respects, right?
But...
But you're both wrong.
pipes aren't in your walls and that's all that matters at the end of the day.
you know, really good robotic total station operators and really good GCs are spending thetime, money and effort to coordinate.
(10:16):
But I've been on, I can't even count how many jobs I've been on and it's not happening tothe level it should be.
Let's put it that way.
a human challenge, right, of getting everyone on the same page and in the enormity of someof the projects.
yeah, I totally agree.
I understand.
(10:36):
a system, you know what mean?
Most everyone can look at a hammer drill and understand what a hammer drill does, right?
Pull the trigger, spins, makes a hole.
You'll get a robotic total station and I start talking about control and resections andyou'll back sites and I've lost 99 % of the people.
yeah, you might have already lost me.
I mean, I've been around them, I've experienced them.
(10:57):
I think I even tried, I have tried to utilize them on myself a couple times.
And I didn't do too bad.
I didn't do too bad, but I would not build anything off of what I can do, to be clear.
So.
different methodologies, it's different tools.
I everything's going to get a slightly different result.
And you know, we get pretty good and we haven't fully adapted to this level, but I thinkthat any decent size building is probably being built largely with robotic total stations
(11:25):
today.
So.
Yeah, I would agree with that statement.
Probably.
I see them all the time, right?
Like they're everywhere.
But there's different, I would assume the different brands have different nuances to themas well.
And if you work for one company and they only use this brand and then you move to thiscompany and you have to relearn.
it's this also this, I'm assuming this varied skill slightly skill set within there that
(11:50):
yeah, I mean, there's definitely interfaces that would be like going from a Mac user to aPC user.
You're dealing with a different interface.
But it's really in the process.
And it's not just the process I use and you use, but it's the process I use today versusthe process I use tomorrow.
And all of this nuance and then...
It worked training people to use these tools as a word of mouth.
(12:12):
mean, there have been a couple of times I'm out training a plumber and I notice, hey, thatcontrol point over there, I think it's east instead of west, despite what's written on the
ground.
And I walk over to, know, I was with the plumber, I walk over to the electrician, I'mlike, hey, Sparky, did you use that control point over there?
And he's like, yeah.
I'm like, did it seem wrong?
And he's like, it turned green.
Okay, well I can make anything turn green on a total station.
(12:34):
Like what does that mean?
He's like, well when it turns green it means good.
I love the simplicity, but maybe that's not accurate.
getting him right, but it's not getting consistency.
So accuracy is great, but consistency is what we need.
So, okay, so fast forward to today, because if you're not a fool in construction today,and this is very arrogant of me to say, but if you're not a fool in construction today,
(12:59):
you're using a BIM printer to do your layout.
Boom.
Everything single source of truth.
And I know there's limitations to them.
know there's, we haven't 100 % adopted it.
But I think in the next five years, the idea of laying out a big building, five differenttrades, laying it out manually with robot, no, let Dusty, HP or Rugged just print the
(13:23):
whole thing for you.
Yeah, and I you know, I was there in the early days of some of these solutions when theywere being developed, when they were still looked like an RC car that somebody put
together in their garage.
They totally looked like a battle bot, which might have been why I was intrigued by itinitially.
But it was, they're actively like, how can we make, solve this challenge of doing thelayout faster, accurate, consistent?
(13:49):
all those things.
Also just adding in the piece of like you're not bending over snapping lines and justergonomically there's some different nuances for the trades.
think that it can help identifying clashes early on by printing it on the ground.
There's so much right that I think it can benefit and has benefited those who are adoptingit.
And there's multiple different platforms being offered today which is great because
(14:14):
nothing like creating a little competition in the space to get to the goal faster.
So I love that.
But you're you're kind of talking about the next evolution of this.
Okay, so now we've gotten to the point where we can do single source of truth.
We don't have to worry about your total station process versus my total station process oryour strings and sticks versus my total station.
(14:35):
Awesome.
Now we're ready for the robots to come in and start doing the real work.
So no offense to the BIM printers or the robotic total stations.
They're great robots.
Don't get me wrong, but they're not picking up a tool and operating it.
We are to the point with the launch of MyRobot globally and a couple others, we're to thepoint where we have robots that can pick up tools and put holes in the concrete.
(14:56):
They can work.
But the vast majority of those robots go back to the total station process.
So now we have three or four different, let's go 10 years in the future, where we've got abunch of robots operating on the job site.
And they've all gone the robotic total station method.
So your dad's the ABC brand and my dad's using the BCA brand using their total stations.
(15:21):
And again, his pipes or my pipes, your walls don't meet up because we're right back to theproblem with the robotic total stations and process and consistency versus accuracy.
So that what makes my solution a little bit novel is we just do it like a human.
Let's look at the ground and see what the mark is and then put the hole there.
So what
(15:42):
What's a kind of little differentiation of what my robot does is it's using an eye.
That eye is in the form of a 3D camera, but the best workflow I can imagine is a BIMprinter comes and prints everything on the ground.
A human then can look at that print, you know, in the, in the reality and see, wait,there's a clash here.
(16:04):
that doesn't make sense.
Make the adjustments.
And then the robot just comes by and puts holes where they go.
so in like, Tristan, I'm a fifth grader terms.
I like to, because you know, different people understand these things differently.
So it's not going to be controlled off of this robotic total station anymore, right?
(16:27):
We're eliminating that.
And all it's doing is saying there's information in the world I'm looking at.
And off of that information, I'm going to install these holes.
it kind of, one, it kind of almost seems like, man, I'm going to use this word and it kindof makes me feel uncomfortable, but it's like a dumber version almost.
(16:48):
Dumber but smarter.
Dumber as in the process is dumbed down.
Simplified, better word, better, thank you.
Because I was trying to find that word and my brain just wasn't finding it.
So yes, I like that.
you know, today with the robotic total stations.
So, you know, I get fed this information into my tablet and I'm just laying out points,right?
(17:08):
And a good operator is going to know, OK, I'm an electrician.
I know that I've gotten putting up trapeze.
I'm to be able to look at the points that I've laid out, whether, you bang it or on thedeck.
And I'm going to be able to see, wait, why is one of my trapeze moved three inches to thewest?
That's a good operator.
The vast majority of operators, when you're just looking at a bunch of dots on the ground.
They're not absorbing that and that's where the bin printers, you know a human can look atwhat a bin printer outputs and Understand it a hundred percent Yeah, so now my robots are
(17:39):
going to be able to understand that same thing that a human can do and there's kind of twoThere's two methodologies that everyone should kind of like start like two buzzwords that
I think everyone should start learning The number one thing is slam.
So I talk about slam all the time
This is simultaneously locating, localization and mapping.
(18:00):
In a nutshell, it's the ability for the robot to move around the job site, see there's acolumn, there's a column, there's a core, so that means I must be here.
So, SLAM as a...
I were to interpret that into like human terms, it's it's basically taking externalinformation to understand their place in the world.
Just like we as humans use audio visual different tactile cues.
(18:25):
We also as humans, don't know if people like people don't maybe necessarily think of itthis way.
But we also do that same thing of like, I'm understanding that I'm sitting in my office inthis chair.
because of all these visual cues that I'm intaking.
And that's kind of the relatable experience I would say that SLAM is for robots.
it's exactly.
(18:45):
It's the ability to just look around and know where you are.
Now, the challenge with SLAM is accuracy at speed.
So everyone is chasing pinpoint accurate SLAM instantaneous.
You know, when you look at your LIDAR scanners or the movable scanners, you know, thebackpack ones that you can walk through a space, those can get pinpoint accurate, right?
(19:08):
But they take a bunch of post-processing.
my goodness, have I been involved in that process?
It is wild.
Not to mention the massive data set that has to be transferred around and processed.
Just that alone takes time.
Yep.
So, but we, the golden chalice of robotics is to be able to do that instantaneously,right?
(19:35):
Not post-process, but in the little robot brain.
So as a general rule, most slam has gotten about a half inch as the level of accuracy.
So if you're doing the goggles, you know, to visualize the space, a half inch of accuracyto understand, okay, that's good enough.
But your dad and my dad would laugh at half inch accuracy, right?
(19:56):
they would.
Yeah.
not there yet.
So what we've kind of done is we've taken that slam, get within a half inch and then usean eyeball, a 3D camera to hit the exact.
like, scooch it in.
It's like you're tapping the hammer to get it right in place kind of situation.
Yeah, that's interesting.
I don't know if this is maybe this is a question I'm going to ask and you're like, I don'tknow.
(20:19):
But like, how do all these Waymo type cart don't they do they use LIDAR and SLAM?
Do you do you know?
I'm just curious.
they are using, yes, but so Teslas don't use LiDAR and that's a big point of the Tesla isthat they're using 3D cameras versus LiDAR.
I believe the Waymos are using actual LiDAR.
um But it is, it's only needing to map a little bit, right?
(20:43):
Like it doesn't care about the global or where it is exactly.
It needs to know that I'm on the road within the lines and we're not running over apedestrian.
need that level of accuracy necessarily.
I mean, the Waymo is getting within an eighth of an inch of hitting me, yeah, I'm notreally comfortable with that one, uh
(21:04):
you live on the edge, right?
It'll be fine.
I mean, so it is, yes, they are doing a level of slamming, right?
They're simultaneously knowing where they are in the space while they're moving.
And that's, you our driver robot, that's what it does.
It's able to slam and know about where it is, but the algorithm to take slam to that nextlevel is the thing everyone's chasing in robotics.
(21:26):
How, like, because I'm not as intimately involved in like the development of Slam and tobe honest, I haven't followed it.
So I'm really not the expert obviously here, but I'm very curious.
Like how far in the development process of Slam, do you have like any insights as to, youknow, in the last year, they've been able to speed it up this much or do you, is there
(21:49):
anything out there about that?
I mean, so there are regularly competitions put out by major robotics firms asking peopleto build the algorithm.
I always joke when I'm talking to younger classrooms of people, I'm like, know, one of youguys figure out the algo for slam and you'll be a billionaire.
It's, you know, I mean, I've seen.
Again, you I mean, if you look at the advancements of those LIDAR scanners that are ableto be moved, you know, it used to be you put it on a tripod, you waited 20 minutes, moved
(22:18):
it, moved it, moved it.
Now you just throw it on a backpack and walk.
But, you know, so we've gotten better.
would say, in the last five to seven years, right?
Is the ability, because I physically have taken and walked job sites with different LiDARscanners to capture information.
(22:39):
And my goodness, some you could move faster.
It had to be at a very specific angle.
You could only walk into this size of room.
Like there's a lot of nuances to a lot of that when you get inside of a building.
And I imagine a lot of that is still true to a point.
But I've never personally played around with SLAM.
So I think it's interesting that that same development process is happening with it rightnow.
(23:02):
So maybe in the next three to five years, we'll see some great speed of increase indevelopment there.
Well, and I think, you know, it all depends on the same things every day.
depends on it depends on our chips, you know, chips getting smarter, faster, because weagain, we have the ability to do this, all these LiDAR scanners wouldn't work if we didn't
have the capacity, but we don't have the capacity at speed.
(23:26):
that for you.
Could it be?
doesn't mean like sending the data somewhere and it being processed.
It has to be processed right there on the physical robotic equipment itself in real timefor this to work on a project site, correct?
I mean, and I think we're probably still a bit a ways on on the slam elgo.
know, again, I think before you and I leave this industry, it'll happen.
(23:49):
But we still got another 20 years, right?
uh
have.
Although knowing me, I'm going to work until I'm like a foot inside the actual gravebecause I don't know what to do with myself otherwise.
I mean, I just want to play with robots for the rest of my life.
I don't care.
did I, I don't know if I've shared with you, I, I early on when I worked for Swinerton, Iwas, I had the privilege of having one of the first few spot dog robots they released for
(24:15):
testing to like 20, I think users.
And, you know, I wasn't like super knowledgeable on robots at the time, but I reallywanted to chase this of how could we use this robot for construction?
And
Here's like me not knowing a ton of information with this robot in my garage, like tryingto program certain things on it.
(24:36):
And it was wildly hilarious.
And also one of the best, like most enjoyable things I've ever done is just experimenting,letting our project teams come up with ideas for it and experimenting with it.
It's incredible to see when you offer up something like a robotic platform.
the ideas it can spark in others of, could it also do this?
(24:56):
Could it also do this?
And a lot of this, I think, is centered around what are the repetitive tasks that possiblyare causing our craft to have injuries, put them at high risk, that also just maybe they
don't want to do?
Like, what's the task that nobody wants to do?
I mean, if you've ever held a hammer drill over your head, even the small hammer drill,the really nice hammer drill, the one that my dad liked the most, it sucks.
(25:21):
I mean, there's no two ways about it you can put a skeleton on your outside to make itsuck a little less, but it still sucks.
I mean, and it's not...
It's not a high skill.
I mean, you can put a hammer drill in a very low skilled person's hand and get the samehole drilled than a high skilled person.
Now, there's other nuance to it, I'm sure.
Don't get me wrong, but...
(25:42):
Yeah, I mean, I think our craft people would be like, but I have this tip and I have thistrick that makes me and I and I agree they all do.
My dad has his own nuanced little tips and tricks that help him achieve what he's going toachieve.
Oddly, a lot of them might be antiquated at this point in time.
And if he tried to do them on a project site, they would be like, what are you doing?
I probably still do them and it's probably just habit, right?
(26:05):
It's habit.
But if if somebody were to offer me
Here's this thing that you can use and you don't have to trash your shoulders or your neckor your back to do it.
I'm probably going to try it.
Now, and there's so many hidden costs to these two, so I yeah, you have the health andsafety piece, but if you're drilling rebar epoxy, you're rebar doweling over and over,
(26:27):
you're drilling the same hole, and you've put a piece of tape on your drill bit so thatyou drill the right size, right?
We need a five and a half inch hole, I'm gonna measure the tip of my drill bit, I'm put apiece of tape.
And then I'm gonna drill 40 holes, and that five and a half inch hole...
that was a 5 1⁄2 inch hole on the first hole has become almost a 6 inch hole on the nextone.
And epoxy's super cheap from what I understand, know, like pennies, right?
(26:48):
Yeah.
It's one of the most expensive substances, I think, on the planet, and we're overdrilling.
and I also would imagine that with tools specifically, if human operating them, right, wego by touch and feel.
So if I feel like I need to push harder, I'm gonna push harder.
And I'm using basic terms that are probably not accurate and correct, or I'm drilling, butit's not quite straight because I'm human, right?
(27:14):
So the consistency of how we use those tools affects the tools
ability to operate correctly, perform the job correctly, and its longevity.
So case in point, I have burned up several tools in my own home because I'm human and Iused it like a human and press harder.
Yes, I promptly had to go buy a new drill one day.
(27:35):
My husband got a new drill that day.
He was excited.
But so
Robotics can also, I think, provide this consistency of tool use that can provide thelongevity of the tools and consistency of installation of the same thing over and over and
over and over again.
Well, and then you also have factors like, so I'm a human using a hammer drill on a jobsite and I start meeting a little bit of resistance.
(27:58):
So I lean into it.
is the 99 % of the time they lean into it and you lean into it for five seconds for 30seconds and it's going nowhere.
Well, what's happening?
Now a good operator is gonna be like, hit rebar, obviously.
And yes, so that human will either in five seconds or 30 seconds realize that they hitrebar, stop and you know.
(28:18):
Of course, tell their engineer that they hit the rebar.
But the thing with the robots is once they start meeting resistance, they know instantly.
Like, I mean, it's not a seconds, it's a millisecond game of, wait, this changed.
And they stop.
Yeah, so you're not tearing into rebar, know, spending 30 seconds killing your bit, yourdrill, your human.
(28:39):
Just stop.
we hit rebar.
going to have the conversation that the rebar is there for me?
I mean, so in the ideal world, well, in the ideal world, we're fully capturing our spaceswith those LIDAR scanners, fully printing our spaces.
mean, and we live in the ideals, we're both very tech forward people, but that's comingbecause it's going to be the most cost effective way to build a building.
(29:06):
I mean...
Agreed.
be, sure at some point people are like, scissor lifts slow me down.
I'd rather just get my 28 foot ladder out, know, run up the ladder.
I guarantee most GCs and I, you know I mean?
And I've gone through many ladder lasts conversations.
I was on a mega data data center and I like joked like you have to give your first born toget a ladder out of this company and good for them because I don't want my dad on a ladder
(29:31):
because it's dangerous.
So.
I've still seen people, not in the company I work for on my day job, just caveat this, butjust on job sites I drive past, right?
I have seen people on ladders doing the hopping it around thing to move it from point likeone point, I'm like, what are we doing?
We're past this, aren't we?
(29:51):
But no, all these things still happen.
But it's also a matter of things.
I mean, for a scissor lift or for the ladder, if you're using a ladder in that way, you'remaking a bad choice, because the scissor lifts are readily available most of the time.
are, they are.
Yeah, I don't like being in them myself personally, but so yeah, no thank you.
But I think as the robots get more and more accessible, so the other, we have one thatdrives around, but I have a robot that'll slide up onto a scissor lift, just your standard
(30:19):
scissor lift and do that overhead operations by itself.
And that's first base time.
part of it because I feel like for culturally, there's still this, the robotic adoption isrough.
And I say that meaning there's some resistance and in some of it is valid, some of it is,in my opinion, not valid.
And some of it just is gonna take time, like anything.
(30:42):
Things take time, right?
And I'm sure when we went from like,
course and buggy to vehicles aside from financial struggles of people affording it, Ithink there's probably resistance in that kind of evolution.
So with all new things comes, you challenges.
Where was I going with this?
Holy cow, I just lost it.
This is fun.
(31:04):
that's the truth though of it.
I mean, there is resistance.
Like I started with the Yankee screwdriver was going to steal all our jobs.
The cordless tools are taking away.
All this is, is just the next version of a cordless tool.
I just wrote, I found it.
The one that attaches to the scissor lift, like what I like about that is, is it's takingsomething that they're familiar with, that they're regularly and just providing another
(31:30):
tool to like augment their workflow.
So instead of the hammer drill in their hand, they're going to be given this other thing.
And that's like the partial evolution to the fully drivable or fully autonomous roamingthe job site kind of situations of the other plot.
Like I think that's
important as we we try to adopt more robotic applications into our industry is thatstepped up approach and offering of allowing that to happen.
(31:55):
Also I think it's a safe thing to do, although I'm pretty comfortable with some autonomousrobotic applications.
I know that a lot of other people aren't, and that's okay.
it's gonna take time and it is, it's what are we doing today and how can we take one stepforward?
You know, we don't have to take 80 steps forward and have the robot build the wholebuilding by itself, but what can we do today a little bit different than we did yesterday?
(32:20):
And what can we do tomorrow a little bit different?
And that's where the incremental in this.
process and improvements is where it's at, I think, for not everything, but a lot ofthings.
And it's something I'm, know, man, as a Gen Xer, I think I struggle with it in my ownpersonal life of like, this new technology, it's so complicated.
And my husband's over here, like, I already figured it out.
(32:41):
And I'm like, my god.
You sound like me and my husband, but he's the Gen Xer and I'm the very slightlymillennial.
it's, you mean, yeah, the technology is, it's gonna change our world.
And you know, the one thing with all those technologies that we've talked about, no one'sgot a horse and buggy outside.
know, no one is using the vast majority of our tools on a job site with the exclusion of afew mega tools are now cordless, are all battery powered.
(33:04):
You mean we.
Evolution always moves forward.
ah
Well, I think one one of the things I've quoted in my other episodes probably more thanone so I'm sorry, y'all if you're tired of hearing it, but there was a quote I read one
time that was something to the effect of like, well, change is going to happen.
So you can either resist it and not be a part of it or you can jump in and contribute toit and help it along because it's coming whether you like it or not.
(33:32):
So you're going to go kicking your screaming or you're going to get left behind or be partof it.
So make your choice where you want to sit in that.
I agree with that statement.
On some level, things are going to move whether we like it or not.
I think it's important to have your voice heard, your knowledge brought forward toinfluence these solutions.
And you can also be the champion that helps bring these forward to adopt them into ourworkflows that helps just the industry grow um and get better for craft folks.
(34:01):
Like I think that's a big...
A thing for me is making sure our craft are offered continued solutions and tools thathelp them physically not be damaged at the end of their career.
That is like a big soapbox I will sit on for the rest of my life.
And I will gladly stand up either next to you on that soapbox because you know, I've gotdad, hands are messed up.
(34:24):
I've got a spring uncle, his shoulders messed up.
I've got a plumber, plumber uncle.
Literally you can name an MEP trade in the Chicago market and I've got an uncle in it.
They're all broken.
surprised if there's not a trade person who doesn't retire out of the trades after 20, 30,40 years who doesn't have some form of repetitive stress injury.
(34:47):
Yeah, and my hope and prayer, because I look at my baby nephews, I've got three nephewsall under three, the statistical likelihood is one of them is gonna end up in the trades.
And I want them to leave this industry more whole than any of our uncles did.
And that's the, mean, and I get very passionate about that.
I'm a soapboxer, like, I want this industry to be better.
(35:07):
And I also, as a woman in this game, I want these robots to be a bit of an equalizer for,for,
other abled bodies, right?
you, I mean, I guarantee you've heard me say that, because anyone who's listened to thispodcast or has ever heard me speak ever anywhere knows that that is one of the biggest
things I think is the equity that robotic solutions can bring to our industry for noteven, and it's not just women, quite frankly, I think it's a very variety of individuals
(35:37):
it can bring equity for.
And I think that's important.
We have a lot of the population.
who could be part of this industry that currently can't because of the nature, at least inthe field, right?
The nature of the work.
it is the low of the work.
I'm never gonna sugarcoat it.
The work is difficult and hard and physically hard.
so can we offer solutions that allow others to come into this industry and be successful,contribute and create an equitable income for themselves?
(36:06):
Yes, I think we can.
And I think robotic solutions can be part of that.
answer a hundred percent.
That's another one of my soap boxes that I will always stand on.
So yeah, I totally agree.
Well, we are getting close to time.
Man, it's such a fun conversation and I wish we could just do more and maybe we'll youjust will you'll come back and we can talk more and geek out about other things.
(36:28):
one of the things you touched on is that these robots are in evolution, right?
And what is out there today is nothing like what's gonna be out there in two weeks.
And that's, for me, super exciting.
I sit there and imagine what 20 years is going to be like.
It's gonna be exciting.
We'll this conversation in 20 years again.
That's what we just have to do.
why not?
Let's do it.
(36:49):
All right, my friend.
Well, I appreciate you joining us today.
Again, there's past episodes.
have lots of, I think we're up to episode 50 now.
So um you love this one.
I encourage y'all to go back and listen to some of the other ones.
If you are interested in being a guest, please feel free to message us on any of ourplatforms.
We'd love to invite more folks to the conversation.
(37:10):
And I encourage you to go check out the robotic solutions that Sandra has at CSC.
And yeah, that's it.
Thanks for joining us today.
I appreciate it.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you for tuning in to today's episode of The Construction Cafe.
We hope you found our conversation as inspiring as your next big project.
(37:34):
Remember, you can dive deeper into the resources and topics we discuss by connecting withus on LinkedIn and Instagram.
Just search for The Construction Cafe.
Don't miss out on future episodes.
Be sure to follow us on Spotify, Podbean, and Apple Podcasts to keep the conversationgoing.
If you're passionate about the construction industry and have a story to share, we'd loveto hear from you.
(37:55):
Visit our website at the constructioncafe.com and drop us a note.
Let's keep building better together.
Welcome to the Construction Cafe, where the buzz of the construction industry meets thewarmth of a friendly conversation.
I'm your host, Tristen Magallanes.
Join me at our virtual cafe as we explore the foundations of construction culture, sip oncutting edge concepts, and amplify the unspoken voices in our industry.
So grab a cup of your favorite beverage, pull up a seat, and let's build more than juststructures, let's build connections.
(00:33):
This is the Construction Cafe.
Hey folks, welcome back to the Construction Cafe.
I know it's been a couple weeks since we've released an episode.
(00:53):
We've been taking it easy, paying attention to things in life.
And I'm super excited.
I'm joined by a guest today.
Her name is Sandra Grigoletti.
I'm sorry if I completely messed your name up.
I'm not as great with the Italian names.
So Sandra, welcome for joining us.
Thanks for having me.
And you are with CSC Robotic Engineering, right?
(01:15):
Did I get it right?
Okay.
So robots equals yay fun for me, because I love robots.
I know it's kind of a touchy subject for some people in the industry.
But before we dive into our topic today, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourjourney in construction and what brought you here?
And I would just love to know more.
(01:35):
So it starts with when I was 10 ish, my dad got into the electrical union.
So when I was a little kid, my dad was teaching me how to rock pipe and change ceilingfans like every 12 year old girl needs to know.
So grew up in the trades, but I'm of that gen X slash millennial age where it was go tocollege, get an education, spend a billion dollars.
(01:59):
So went and got a pretty piece of paper from DePaul University.
out of college in 09.
You know, things were great back then.
So I was with Home Depot at that point, kind of cut my teeth playing with contractors.
um And then I just kind of continued to go down that construction path in the sales andinnovation space.
I worked for a company that's known for its innovations, fell in love with the very firstof the robots that are on job sites, the robotic total station.
(02:26):
And my life kind of snowballed from there.
I'm pretty recently joined CSC here.
And I think they have a really cool robot that I'm getting to bring to construction sites.
And like you, I'm just a huge nerd for robots.
you know, it's, it's corny to say, but I kind of feel like I found my dream job.
And I'm getting to bring robots to people like my dad.
(02:48):
Well, my dad's a nerd.
I'm curious, what does your dad say about robots and construction?
Okay, so my dad has done the typical, it's gonna steal my job and I like to throw back athim, okay dad, wasn't the Yankee screwdriver gonna steal your job?
And I know Yankee screwdriver is probably not something anyone but an electrician, olderelectrician on this right here.
(03:11):
But you know, I mean, it's the same thing as power cords for tools.
Who's using a corded tool anymore?
That's obsolete.
Did that cost more labor?
Yeah, probably.
But the robots are just the next evolution.
And for me, the number one thing I'd go when my dad's giving me a hard time, I'd go, dad,hey, show me your hands.
his hands don't fully extend anymore because he's held a hammer drill for 30 years.
(03:37):
That is like my direct, because my robot essentially holds hammer drills, it's reallypersonal to me to change the industry.
I don't want my nephews and potential nieces, I don't have any nieces yet,
But potential nieces to go into this industry and get broken like I saw my dad in myarticles.
Yeah.
And you know, it's interesting you bring that up because my dad has pretty roughshoulders, I would say.
(04:01):
Like, I've seen him struggle with, like, rotator cuff type problems.
He probably should have had surgery and is probably going to continue to ignore that hiswhole life.
But that's, to me, is a result of the overuse of, you know, being a carpenter.
So that is that's interesting and interesting that we're fueled by,
that passion we have of watching our fathers go through this industry and the challengesthat they've faced and us observing them, right?
(04:26):
And yeah, it's incredibly fun to, I think, talk to.
I've talked to this about a couple with a couple guests that I feel like it would be funto have some like father daughter episodes where we bring on the dads.
And I think it would be super fun.
because there's probably at least five or six at this point who have been heavilyinfluenced by their father's journey in this industry and the exposure.
(04:51):
just like you, my dad was having me build stuff with him in the garage.
And he also taught me how to change oil and rotate tires when I was nine.
So he taught me a lot of what I would consider for the day back then, non-traditional girlthings, but I'm thankful.
Yep, me too.
Very much so.
I also don't want to change tires and rotate tires anymore.
(05:16):
I luckily missed out on most of the car stuff.
I've got a brother who took most of the car stuff, I was always apt to, I did like techtheater.
I liked building stuff and it breaks my heart a little bit that I wasn't 10 years youngerbecause I think I probably would have followed him straight into the trades.
And that's one of the things I'm super passionate about in my roles of showing youngwomen, especially, hey, it's not the backbreaking labor.
(05:43):
Well, it soon won't be the backbreaking labor.
it's like in the middle here, right?
I think we're in the middle of like this revolution that's happening.
not only the robot that your company has, I mean, it's that you you have a robot with CSC.
But what we want to talk about today is specifically you brought forward this idea oftalking about visual based layout.
(06:07):
And I would because I just never know listening listenership wise.
what that, if everybody even understands what that means.
And I'd be shocked if many people understood the intimacies of layout.
And I've got field experience that shows that there's a lot of gaps in knowledge.
And this isn't, your dad as a carpenter can probably smoke a three, four, five, right?
(06:31):
You know, absolutely, but.
I mean, I've watched a plumber do a three, four, five using a three inch by four inch byfive inch triangle.
And I'd ask them, are you measuring in 64ths of an inch because your two inch error thatyou're claiming isn't there?
It's because of the tiny, you know, but I think most, I mean, if I say a three, four, fiveto my electrician father, he, huh?
(06:53):
Yeah, I mean, yeah.
So I mean, the process of layout is a little bit.
mystifying and I thought it would be, you know, a good, I love your show first off.
And so I thought it'd be a thing to like, kind of let's talk about like the evolution oflayout, the evolution of, of, you know, the next steps to that layout process, which are
going to be robots and how maybe there's a different way than what, what the most commonmethod of robotic layout is today.
(07:20):
and I think what's interesting when we were having some of our early on discussions, youkind of what alluded to brought forward is that this, we'll call it robotic layout for
sake of I guess, anything calling in anything else.
If that is very accurate, other robotic systems can utilize that information for othertasks that it can perform.
(07:46):
in conjunction with our trade workers.
So I think that that is the this is like the foundation piece almost if you will.
play on words.
I love a good pun.
I kill myself some days.
Here all week.
So explain to me what the are there challenges with layout?
when it comes to transitioning it from sort of this manual to this robotic process andwhat they just just like lay that lay that out.
(08:13):
Yeah, so let me kind of start with the beginning, right?
Strings and sticks.
Okay, so for X number of millennial, we have been using literal strings and sticks tobuild really cool stuff, right?
I like to say we went from the Roman Empire, the pyramids, all the way to the Sears Tower,were pretty much built with the same strings and sticks.
And sure, the strings and sticks have gotten fancier, and we call them tape measures andplumb bobs and laser levels, but ultimately, strings and sticks.
(08:39):
Mm-hmm.
You get a pretty good result.
If you know your trig, your dad, I'm sure, smoked that trig.
My dad can put his pipes in the walls once your dad lays them out.
But we've been doing that methodology.
And it localizes the error, right?
Because I'm going to typically measure off of this grid line.
And I'm not getting the whole.
(08:59):
Project in that that one measurement, but just a short measurement so that works.
Okay, so fast forward We finally get to the the millennial and we bring in robotic totalstations So robotic total station just to give your viewers who may not even know what it
is It's a tool that's used by a surveyor essentially It's an optic and a shiny object thatit follows around and it's able to know where you are These tools are great Amazing pieces
(09:24):
of technology, but they are not an easy thing
to use.
My whole job for a period of my life was teaching people how to use these tools and thenhelping them when things went wrong.
So these tools are gonna, you know, they're gonna wanna be given points that will tellthem where they are.
Well, if I'm the electrician and you're the carpenter and we're both using robotic totalstations and you go off of points A, B and C and I go off of points B, C and D, we end up
(09:53):
with a slightly different answer.
Now, this is right.
Well, this is
Technically you both are in your own respects, right?
But...
But you're both wrong.
pipes aren't in your walls and that's all that matters at the end of the day.
you know, really good robotic total station operators and really good GCs are spending thetime, money and effort to coordinate.
(10:16):
But I've been on, I can't even count how many jobs I've been on and it's not happening tothe level it should be.
Let's put it that way.
a human challenge, right, of getting everyone on the same page and in the enormity of someof the projects.
yeah, I totally agree.
I understand.
(10:36):
a system, you know what mean?
Most everyone can look at a hammer drill and understand what a hammer drill does, right?
Pull the trigger, spins, makes a hole.
You'll get a robotic total station and I start talking about control and resections andyou'll back sites and I've lost 99 % of the people.
yeah, you might have already lost me.
I mean, I've been around them, I've experienced them.
(10:57):
I think I even tried, I have tried to utilize them on myself a couple times.
And I didn't do too bad.
I didn't do too bad, but I would not build anything off of what I can do, to be clear.
So.
different methodologies, it's different tools.
I everything's going to get a slightly different result.
And you know, we get pretty good and we haven't fully adapted to this level, but I thinkthat any decent size building is probably being built largely with robotic total stations
(11:25):
today.
So.
Yeah, I would agree with that statement.
Probably.
I see them all the time, right?
Like they're everywhere.
But there's different, I would assume the different brands have different nuances to themas well.
And if you work for one company and they only use this brand and then you move to thiscompany and you have to relearn.
it's this also this, I'm assuming this varied skill slightly skill set within there that
(11:50):
yeah, I mean, there's definitely interfaces that would be like going from a Mac user to aPC user.
You're dealing with a different interface.
But it's really in the process.
And it's not just the process I use and you use, but it's the process I use today versusthe process I use tomorrow.
And all of this nuance and then...
It worked training people to use these tools as a word of mouth.
(12:12):
mean, there have been a couple of times I'm out training a plumber and I notice, hey, thatcontrol point over there, I think it's east instead of west, despite what's written on the
ground.
And I walk over to, know, I was with the plumber, I walk over to the electrician, I'mlike, hey, Sparky, did you use that control point over there?
And he's like, yeah.
I'm like, did it seem wrong?
And he's like, it turned green.
Okay, well I can make anything turn green on a total station.
(12:34):
Like what does that mean?
He's like, well when it turns green it means good.
I love the simplicity, but maybe that's not accurate.
getting him right, but it's not getting consistency.
So accuracy is great, but consistency is what we need.
So, okay, so fast forward to today, because if you're not a fool in construction today,and this is very arrogant of me to say, but if you're not a fool in construction today,
(12:59):
you're using a BIM printer to do your layout.
Boom.
Everything single source of truth.
And I know there's limitations to them.
know there's, we haven't 100 % adopted it.
But I think in the next five years, the idea of laying out a big building, five differenttrades, laying it out manually with robot, no, let Dusty, HP or Rugged just print the
(13:23):
whole thing for you.
Yeah, and I you know, I was there in the early days of some of these solutions when theywere being developed, when they were still looked like an RC car that somebody put
together in their garage.
They totally looked like a battle bot, which might have been why I was intrigued by itinitially.
But it was, they're actively like, how can we make, solve this challenge of doing thelayout faster, accurate, consistent?
(13:49):
all those things.
Also just adding in the piece of like you're not bending over snapping lines and justergonomically there's some different nuances for the trades.
think that it can help identifying clashes early on by printing it on the ground.
There's so much right that I think it can benefit and has benefited those who are adoptingit.
And there's multiple different platforms being offered today which is great because
(14:14):
nothing like creating a little competition in the space to get to the goal faster.
So I love that.
But you're you're kind of talking about the next evolution of this.
Okay, so now we've gotten to the point where we can do single source of truth.
We don't have to worry about your total station process versus my total station process oryour strings and sticks versus my total station.
(14:35):
Awesome.
Now we're ready for the robots to come in and start doing the real work.
So no offense to the BIM printers or the robotic total stations.
They're great robots.
Don't get me wrong, but they're not picking up a tool and operating it.
We are to the point with the launch of MyRobot globally and a couple others, we're to thepoint where we have robots that can pick up tools and put holes in the concrete.
(14:56):
They can work.
But the vast majority of those robots go back to the total station process.
So now we have three or four different, let's go 10 years in the future, where we've got abunch of robots operating on the job site.
And they've all gone the robotic total station method.
So your dad's the ABC brand and my dad's using the BCA brand using their total stations.
(15:21):
And again, his pipes or my pipes, your walls don't meet up because we're right back to theproblem with the robotic total stations and process and consistency versus accuracy.
So that what makes my solution a little bit novel is we just do it like a human.
Let's look at the ground and see what the mark is and then put the hole there.
So what
(15:42):
What's a kind of little differentiation of what my robot does is it's using an eye.
That eye is in the form of a 3D camera, but the best workflow I can imagine is a BIMprinter comes and prints everything on the ground.
A human then can look at that print, you know, in the, in the reality and see, wait,there's a clash here.
(16:04):
that doesn't make sense.
Make the adjustments.
And then the robot just comes by and puts holes where they go.
so in like, Tristan, I'm a fifth grader terms.
I like to, because you know, different people understand these things differently.
So it's not going to be controlled off of this robotic total station anymore, right?
(16:27):
We're eliminating that.
And all it's doing is saying there's information in the world I'm looking at.
And off of that information, I'm going to install these holes.
it kind of, one, it kind of almost seems like, man, I'm going to use this word and it kindof makes me feel uncomfortable, but it's like a dumber version almost.
(16:48):
Dumber but smarter.
Dumber as in the process is dumbed down.
Simplified, better word, better, thank you.
Because I was trying to find that word and my brain just wasn't finding it.
So yes, I like that.
you know, today with the robotic total stations.
So, you know, I get fed this information into my tablet and I'm just laying out points,right?
(17:08):
And a good operator is going to know, OK, I'm an electrician.
I know that I've gotten putting up trapeze.
I'm to be able to look at the points that I've laid out, whether, you bang it or on thedeck.
And I'm going to be able to see, wait, why is one of my trapeze moved three inches to thewest?
That's a good operator.
The vast majority of operators, when you're just looking at a bunch of dots on the ground.
They're not absorbing that and that's where the bin printers, you know a human can look atwhat a bin printer outputs and Understand it a hundred percent Yeah, so now my robots are
(17:39):
going to be able to understand that same thing that a human can do and there's kind of twoThere's two methodologies that everyone should kind of like start like two buzzwords that
I think everyone should start learning The number one thing is slam.
So I talk about slam all the time
This is simultaneously locating, localization and mapping.
(18:00):
In a nutshell, it's the ability for the robot to move around the job site, see there's acolumn, there's a column, there's a core, so that means I must be here.
So, SLAM as a...
I were to interpret that into like human terms, it's it's basically taking externalinformation to understand their place in the world.
Just like we as humans use audio visual different tactile cues.
(18:25):
We also as humans, don't know if people like people don't maybe necessarily think of itthis way.
But we also do that same thing of like, I'm understanding that I'm sitting in my office inthis chair.
because of all these visual cues that I'm intaking.
And that's kind of the relatable experience I would say that SLAM is for robots.
it's exactly.
(18:45):
It's the ability to just look around and know where you are.
Now, the challenge with SLAM is accuracy at speed.
So everyone is chasing pinpoint accurate SLAM instantaneous.
You know, when you look at your LIDAR scanners or the movable scanners, you know, thebackpack ones that you can walk through a space, those can get pinpoint accurate, right?
(19:08):
But they take a bunch of post-processing.
my goodness, have I been involved in that process?
It is wild.
Not to mention the massive data set that has to be transferred around and processed.
Just that alone takes time.
Yep.
So, but we, the golden chalice of robotics is to be able to do that instantaneously,right?
(19:35):
Not post-process, but in the little robot brain.
So as a general rule, most slam has gotten about a half inch as the level of accuracy.
So if you're doing the goggles, you know, to visualize the space, a half inch of accuracyto understand, okay, that's good enough.
But your dad and my dad would laugh at half inch accuracy, right?
(19:56):
they would.
Yeah.
not there yet.
So what we've kind of done is we've taken that slam, get within a half inch and then usean eyeball, a 3D camera to hit the exact.
like, scooch it in.
It's like you're tapping the hammer to get it right in place kind of situation.
Yeah, that's interesting.
I don't know if this is maybe this is a question I'm going to ask and you're like, I don'tknow.
(20:19):
But like, how do all these Waymo type cart don't they do they use LIDAR and SLAM?
Do you do you know?
I'm just curious.
they are using, yes, but so Teslas don't use LiDAR and that's a big point of the Tesla isthat they're using 3D cameras versus LiDAR.
I believe the Waymos are using actual LiDAR.
um But it is, it's only needing to map a little bit, right?
(20:43):
Like it doesn't care about the global or where it is exactly.
It needs to know that I'm on the road within the lines and we're not running over apedestrian.
need that level of accuracy necessarily.
I mean, the Waymo is getting within an eighth of an inch of hitting me, yeah, I'm notreally comfortable with that one, uh
(21:04):
you live on the edge, right?
It'll be fine.
I mean, so it is, yes, they are doing a level of slamming, right?
They're simultaneously knowing where they are in the space while they're moving.
And that's, you our driver robot, that's what it does.
It's able to slam and know about where it is, but the algorithm to take slam to that nextlevel is the thing everyone's chasing in robotics.
(21:26):
How, like, because I'm not as intimately involved in like the development of Slam and tobe honest, I haven't followed it.
So I'm really not the expert obviously here, but I'm very curious.
Like how far in the development process of Slam, do you have like any insights as to, youknow, in the last year, they've been able to speed it up this much or do you, is there
(21:49):
anything out there about that?
I mean, so there are regularly competitions put out by major robotics firms asking peopleto build the algorithm.
I always joke when I'm talking to younger classrooms of people, I'm like, know, one of youguys figure out the algo for slam and you'll be a billionaire.
It's, you know, I mean, I've seen.
Again, you I mean, if you look at the advancements of those LIDAR scanners that are ableto be moved, you know, it used to be you put it on a tripod, you waited 20 minutes, moved
(22:18):
it, moved it, moved it.
Now you just throw it on a backpack and walk.
But, you know, so we've gotten better.
would say, in the last five to seven years, right?
Is the ability, because I physically have taken and walked job sites with different LiDARscanners to capture information.
(22:39):
And my goodness, some you could move faster.
It had to be at a very specific angle.
You could only walk into this size of room.
Like there's a lot of nuances to a lot of that when you get inside of a building.
And I imagine a lot of that is still true to a point.
But I've never personally played around with SLAM.
So I think it's interesting that that same development process is happening with it rightnow.
(23:02):
So maybe in the next three to five years, we'll see some great speed of increase indevelopment there.
Well, and I think, you know, it all depends on the same things every day.
depends on it depends on our chips, you know, chips getting smarter, faster, because weagain, we have the ability to do this, all these LiDAR scanners wouldn't work if we didn't
have the capacity, but we don't have the capacity at speed.
(23:26):
that for you.
Could it be?
doesn't mean like sending the data somewhere and it being processed.
It has to be processed right there on the physical robotic equipment itself in real timefor this to work on a project site, correct?
I mean, and I think we're probably still a bit a ways on on the slam elgo.
know, again, I think before you and I leave this industry, it'll happen.
(23:49):
But we still got another 20 years, right?
uh
have.
Although knowing me, I'm going to work until I'm like a foot inside the actual gravebecause I don't know what to do with myself otherwise.
I mean, I just want to play with robots for the rest of my life.
I don't care.
did I, I don't know if I've shared with you, I, I early on when I worked for Swinerton, Iwas, I had the privilege of having one of the first few spot dog robots they released for
(24:15):
testing to like 20, I think users.
And, you know, I wasn't like super knowledgeable on robots at the time, but I reallywanted to chase this of how could we use this robot for construction?
And
Here's like me not knowing a ton of information with this robot in my garage, like tryingto program certain things on it.
(24:36):
And it was wildly hilarious.
And also one of the best, like most enjoyable things I've ever done is just experimenting,letting our project teams come up with ideas for it and experimenting with it.
It's incredible to see when you offer up something like a robotic platform.
the ideas it can spark in others of, could it also do this?
(24:56):
Could it also do this?
And a lot of this, I think, is centered around what are the repetitive tasks that possiblyare causing our craft to have injuries, put them at high risk, that also just maybe they
don't want to do?
Like, what's the task that nobody wants to do?
I mean, if you've ever held a hammer drill over your head, even the small hammer drill,the really nice hammer drill, the one that my dad liked the most, it sucks.
(25:21):
I mean, there's no two ways about it you can put a skeleton on your outside to make itsuck a little less, but it still sucks.
I mean, and it's not...
It's not a high skill.
I mean, you can put a hammer drill in a very low skilled person's hand and get the samehole drilled than a high skilled person.
Now, there's other nuance to it, I'm sure.
Don't get me wrong, but...
(25:42):
Yeah, I mean, I think our craft people would be like, but I have this tip and I have thistrick that makes me and I and I agree they all do.
My dad has his own nuanced little tips and tricks that help him achieve what he's going toachieve.
Oddly, a lot of them might be antiquated at this point in time.
And if he tried to do them on a project site, they would be like, what are you doing?
I probably still do them and it's probably just habit, right?
(26:05):
It's habit.
But if if somebody were to offer me
Here's this thing that you can use and you don't have to trash your shoulders or your neckor your back to do it.
I'm probably going to try it.
Now, and there's so many hidden costs to these two, so I yeah, you have the health andsafety piece, but if you're drilling rebar epoxy, you're rebar doweling over and over,
(26:27):
you're drilling the same hole, and you've put a piece of tape on your drill bit so thatyou drill the right size, right?
We need a five and a half inch hole, I'm gonna measure the tip of my drill bit, I'm put apiece of tape.
And then I'm gonna drill 40 holes, and that five and a half inch hole...
that was a 5 1⁄2 inch hole on the first hole has become almost a 6 inch hole on the nextone.
And epoxy's super cheap from what I understand, know, like pennies, right?
(26:48):
Yeah.
It's one of the most expensive substances, I think, on the planet, and we're overdrilling.
and I also would imagine that with tools specifically, if human operating them, right, wego by touch and feel.
So if I feel like I need to push harder, I'm gonna push harder.
And I'm using basic terms that are probably not accurate and correct, or I'm drilling, butit's not quite straight because I'm human, right?
(27:14):
So the consistency of how we use those tools affects the tools
ability to operate correctly, perform the job correctly, and its longevity.
So case in point, I have burned up several tools in my own home because I'm human and Iused it like a human and press harder.
Yes, I promptly had to go buy a new drill one day.
(27:35):
My husband got a new drill that day.
He was excited.
But so
Robotics can also, I think, provide this consistency of tool use that can provide thelongevity of the tools and consistency of installation of the same thing over and over and
over and over again.
Well, and then you also have factors like, so I'm a human using a hammer drill on a jobsite and I start meeting a little bit of resistance.
(27:58):
So I lean into it.
is the 99 % of the time they lean into it and you lean into it for five seconds for 30seconds and it's going nowhere.
Well, what's happening?
Now a good operator is gonna be like, hit rebar, obviously.
And yes, so that human will either in five seconds or 30 seconds realize that they hitrebar, stop and you know.
(28:18):
Of course, tell their engineer that they hit the rebar.
But the thing with the robots is once they start meeting resistance, they know instantly.
Like, I mean, it's not a seconds, it's a millisecond game of, wait, this changed.
And they stop.
Yeah, so you're not tearing into rebar, know, spending 30 seconds killing your bit, yourdrill, your human.
(28:39):
Just stop.
we hit rebar.
going to have the conversation that the rebar is there for me?
I mean, so in the ideal world, well, in the ideal world, we're fully capturing our spaceswith those LIDAR scanners, fully printing our spaces.
mean, and we live in the ideals, we're both very tech forward people, but that's comingbecause it's going to be the most cost effective way to build a building.
(29:06):
I mean...
Agreed.
be, sure at some point people are like, scissor lifts slow me down.
I'd rather just get my 28 foot ladder out, know, run up the ladder.
I guarantee most GCs and I, you know I mean?
And I've gone through many ladder lasts conversations.
I was on a mega data data center and I like joked like you have to give your first born toget a ladder out of this company and good for them because I don't want my dad on a ladder
(29:31):
because it's dangerous.
So.
I've still seen people, not in the company I work for on my day job, just caveat this, butjust on job sites I drive past, right?
I have seen people on ladders doing the hopping it around thing to move it from point likeone point, I'm like, what are we doing?
We're past this, aren't we?
(29:51):
But no, all these things still happen.
But it's also a matter of things.
I mean, for a scissor lift or for the ladder, if you're using a ladder in that way, you'remaking a bad choice, because the scissor lifts are readily available most of the time.
are, they are.
Yeah, I don't like being in them myself personally, but so yeah, no thank you.
But I think as the robots get more and more accessible, so the other, we have one thatdrives around, but I have a robot that'll slide up onto a scissor lift, just your standard
(30:19):
scissor lift and do that overhead operations by itself.
And that's first base time.
part of it because I feel like for culturally, there's still this, the robotic adoption isrough.
And I say that meaning there's some resistance and in some of it is valid, some of it is,in my opinion, not valid.
And some of it just is gonna take time, like anything.
(30:42):
Things take time, right?
And I'm sure when we went from like,
course and buggy to vehicles aside from financial struggles of people affording it, Ithink there's probably resistance in that kind of evolution.
So with all new things comes, you challenges.
Where was I going with this?
Holy cow, I just lost it.
This is fun.
(31:04):
that's the truth though of it.
I mean, there is resistance.
Like I started with the Yankee screwdriver was going to steal all our jobs.
The cordless tools are taking away.
All this is, is just the next version of a cordless tool.
I just wrote, I found it.
The one that attaches to the scissor lift, like what I like about that is, is it's takingsomething that they're familiar with, that they're regularly and just providing another
(31:30):
tool to like augment their workflow.
So instead of the hammer drill in their hand, they're going to be given this other thing.
And that's like the partial evolution to the fully drivable or fully autonomous roamingthe job site kind of situations of the other plot.
Like I think that's
important as we we try to adopt more robotic applications into our industry is thatstepped up approach and offering of allowing that to happen.
(31:55):
Also I think it's a safe thing to do, although I'm pretty comfortable with some autonomousrobotic applications.
I know that a lot of other people aren't, and that's okay.
it's gonna take time and it is, it's what are we doing today and how can we take one stepforward?
You know, we don't have to take 80 steps forward and have the robot build the wholebuilding by itself, but what can we do today a little bit different than we did yesterday?
(32:20):
And what can we do tomorrow a little bit different?
And that's where the incremental in this.
process and improvements is where it's at, I think, for not everything, but a lot ofthings.
And it's something I'm, know, man, as a Gen Xer, I think I struggle with it in my ownpersonal life of like, this new technology, it's so complicated.
And my husband's over here, like, I already figured it out.
(32:41):
And I'm like, my god.
You sound like me and my husband, but he's the Gen Xer and I'm the very slightlymillennial.
it's, you mean, yeah, the technology is, it's gonna change our world.
And you know, the one thing with all those technologies that we've talked about, no one'sgot a horse and buggy outside.
know, no one is using the vast majority of our tools on a job site with the exclusion of afew mega tools are now cordless, are all battery powered.
(33:04):
You mean we.
Evolution always moves forward.
ah
Well, I think one one of the things I've quoted in my other episodes probably more thanone so I'm sorry, y'all if you're tired of hearing it, but there was a quote I read one
time that was something to the effect of like, well, change is going to happen.
So you can either resist it and not be a part of it or you can jump in and contribute toit and help it along because it's coming whether you like it or not.
(33:32):
So you're going to go kicking your screaming or you're going to get left behind or be partof it.
So make your choice where you want to sit in that.
I agree with that statement.
On some level, things are going to move whether we like it or not.
I think it's important to have your voice heard, your knowledge brought forward toinfluence these solutions.
And you can also be the champion that helps bring these forward to adopt them into ourworkflows that helps just the industry grow um and get better for craft folks.
(34:01):
Like I think that's a big...
A thing for me is making sure our craft are offered continued solutions and tools thathelp them physically not be damaged at the end of their career.
That is like a big soapbox I will sit on for the rest of my life.
And I will gladly stand up either next to you on that soapbox because you know, I've gotdad, hands are messed up.
(34:24):
I've got a spring uncle, his shoulders messed up.
I've got a plumber, plumber uncle.
Literally you can name an MEP trade in the Chicago market and I've got an uncle in it.
They're all broken.
surprised if there's not a trade person who doesn't retire out of the trades after 20, 30,40 years who doesn't have some form of repetitive stress injury.
(34:47):
Yeah, and my hope and prayer, because I look at my baby nephews, I've got three nephewsall under three, the statistical likelihood is one of them is gonna end up in the trades.
And I want them to leave this industry more whole than any of our uncles did.
And that's the, mean, and I get very passionate about that.
I'm a soapboxer, like, I want this industry to be better.
(35:07):
And I also, as a woman in this game, I want these robots to be a bit of an equalizer for,for,
other abled bodies, right?
you, I mean, I guarantee you've heard me say that, because anyone who's listened to thispodcast or has ever heard me speak ever anywhere knows that that is one of the biggest
things I think is the equity that robotic solutions can bring to our industry for noteven, and it's not just women, quite frankly, I think it's a very variety of individuals
(35:37):
it can bring equity for.
And I think that's important.
We have a lot of the population.
who could be part of this industry that currently can't because of the nature, at least inthe field, right?
The nature of the work.
it is the low of the work.
I'm never gonna sugarcoat it.
The work is difficult and hard and physically hard.
so can we offer solutions that allow others to come into this industry and be successful,contribute and create an equitable income for themselves?
(36:06):
Yes, I think we can.
And I think robotic solutions can be part of that.
answer a hundred percent.
That's another one of my soap boxes that I will always stand on.
So yeah, I totally agree.
Well, we are getting close to time.
Man, it's such a fun conversation and I wish we could just do more and maybe we'll youjust will you'll come back and we can talk more and geek out about other things.
(36:28):
one of the things you touched on is that these robots are in evolution, right?
And what is out there today is nothing like what's gonna be out there in two weeks.
And that's, for me, super exciting.
I sit there and imagine what 20 years is going to be like.
It's gonna be exciting.
We'll this conversation in 20 years again.
That's what we just have to do.
why not?
Let's do it.
(36:49):
All right, my friend.
Well, I appreciate you joining us today.
Again, there's past episodes.
have lots of, I think we're up to episode 50 now.
So um you love this one.
I encourage y'all to go back and listen to some of the other ones.
If you are interested in being a guest, please feel free to message us on any of ourplatforms.
We'd love to invite more folks to the conversation.
(37:10):
And I encourage you to go check out the robotic solutions that Sandra has at CSC.
And yeah, that's it.
Thanks for joining us today.
I appreciate it.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you for tuning in to today's episode of The Construction Cafe.
We hope you found our conversation as inspiring as your next big project.
(37:34):
Remember, you can dive deeper into the resources and topics we discuss by connecting withus on LinkedIn and Instagram.
Just search for The Construction Cafe.
Don't miss out on future episodes.
Be sure to follow us on Spotify, Podbean, and Apple Podcasts to keep the conversationgoing.
If you're passionate about the construction industry and have a story to share, we'd loveto hear from you.
(37:55):
Visit our website at the constructioncafe.com and drop us a note.
Let's keep building better together.
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