May 7, 2024 • 21 mins
Welcome back to another episode of The Copy Table!
In this episode, your hosts Erin, Nicole, and Grace talk about the differences between "order taking" and "offer building" in the context of copywriting businesses.
Listen up, and you'll learn:
- The differences between order taking and offer building, and how to tell where you are on the spectrum
- How to transition from one end of the spectrum to the other
- The benefits of having some clients on the order-taking side and others on the offer-building side
Most importantly? You'll learn that there's no shame in being on the order-taking end of the spectrum, and being on the offer-building end doesn't necessarily mean that you're a more profitable or successful copywriter, so build your business in a way that feels good to you.
The takeaway? There really is no one right way to build a copywriting business you love, but it's on you to use your powers of persuasion responsibly!
Whether you need actionable tips to market your copywriting business, a push to raise your rates, or the courage to plant your flag in a new niche, we've got you covered. Over the years, we've met some extraordinary people who've helped us, and we're ready to help you avoid the pitfalls that so many copywriters find.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the copy table, the podcast for copywriters who want to get new ideas and inspiration for building and scaling a business you love.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
In this podcast, hosts Grace Fortune, Nicole Morton, and Erin Pennings bring new topics and guests to the table.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
Every single episode, we're spilling the beans on how you can use your interests and expertise to define what success means to you and take steps to achieve it.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Welcome back to the copy table. In this episode, we will be talking about the spectrum of order taking versus offer building. And all three of us, Grace Fortune, Nicole Morton, and me, Erin Pennings, have a variety of experiences here in what it looks like to work for hire, what it looks like to be in an advisory or strategic capacity, and everything kind of in between. So we will be sharing that today. And I'm going to kick things off by asking, Nicole, you know, how would you define these?
Speaker 1 (01:05):
That's a really good question. So the default answer is always, it depends. But I think the key is the level of strategic decision making you have in determining where you along that spectrum. So when you don't have a lot of strategic decision making capabilities or requirements, you know, more the order taker, you're, you know, you're cranking out the widgets and the widgets are supposed to meet the widget spec, right? As opposed to all the way to the other end spectrum where you are leveraging your skills and talents to create strategic direction, creative direction, messaging direction out of whole. And I think that you're at different points in that spectrum at different parts of your career. And they're not a linear, no, I.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Would say that is spot on. You can be at multiple points on the spectrum at any given time, depending on who your clients are, who you're working with, who you're working for, if you're in a job or a retainer type situation or pseudo semi in house or not in house. And I know, Grace, you have some experience here, too. So I have all these thoughts, easy for me to break in. So I'm going to stop that.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Okay. So, I mean, for me, the difference.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
Between order taking versus offer building really.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Comes down to like, okay, who's actually in charge and taking control of the situation. So when you're on the order taking side of the spectrum, your clients are basically telling you what they need from you and you're filling that need. You're not, you're not necessarily strategizing. You're not necessarily like diagnosing or figuring.
Speaker 4 (02:42):
Out what they need. They're telling you.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
And on the other end, offer building is when you figure out what your audience needs or what your clients need, and you tell them that, to me, that's the simplest way to break that down.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
When I think what's really interesting here, I love the way you've both broken that down. What I think is interesting is when you develop authority in a space and you become known for it. Like, people will come to you and they're like, hey, I need website copy. I need a funnel. I need to launch. And so they're coming to you in both a strategic and an order taking capacity because it's like they know what they want or they have an idea, and it's up to you to say, aha. Have you considered this, too? And maybe they don't need to. Maybe their ideas are super solid. But I think maybe at that point, it's about your ability to push back and decide if you want to be everything to everyone or not.
(03:33):
And I think, you know, different people in copywriting have different ideas about this. Some people are like, you never want to be an order taker in business in general, and other people are really comfortable in that space. And I think a lot of us, when we start out, we're like, I just need to make some money. Like, I, for whatever reason, cannot do a regular day job, or I don't want to, or yada, yada. I can do this freelance. It's a lot easier to start with, to find people who are already looking for you because those are hot leads. And so a lot of us start out and we ultimately create ourselves a job looking for other people who need work. And there's nothing wrong with that. And I think, I don't know. I can monologue here for a really long time.
(04:20):
So I'm going to, again, pause the Erin has voice. And, you know, what were your experiences starting out?
Speaker 3 (04:29):
I know in the beginning.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
So as I was transitioning back into the workforce and kind of reorienting self with my marketing experience, I know I was very comfortable in the order taking space. So I had, it was very comfortable having a deadline that was prescribed for me, an objective that was prescribed for me, and expectations that were prescribed for me, but then turned me loose within the confines of the boundaries that was very comfortable. However, the downside of that is being able to see the plan, but you are neither there to identify or prescribe a solution for that. So I can see how that's stifling and frustrating very quickly, depending on how adept you are in creative problem solving and strategic thinking and that's a skill.
(05:30):
And, you know, whether you have the capacity to flex that now or in the future is going to affect how you with that part that end the spectrum per se.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Well, and I think to add to that, like, what's your comfort level with pushing back and bringing to the table. That's true.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
How confident you are.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Even if you're not in the space where you can automatically be like, here's what I think we should do. How comfortable are you stepping up and being like, hey, you know, I have this thought. What do you think about this? And.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Getting comfortable pitching your idea.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
And then being able to take it and run with it. And I think all of us are more successful when we have some buy in and to whatever it is because not only on board, but we have an idea of how to go about doing it because.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 4 (06:20):
Yeah. And it allows you, if you are.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
On the order taking spectrum and you do want to move out of that, it allows you to kind of differentiate yourself and shine and flex those muscles and learn to get more and more comfortable as you continue, like, offering solutions instead of just letting people tell you what they need.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
I think about the training that we had with Mike Kim where he talks about the value of handiwork versus the value of brainy work and the disparate nature of the two and the distance between the two and how you one point to another. And I know that I, I'm at my best when I'm at the creative, problem solving end of it, and I like being able to flex in that space. And that does take a certain amount of experience and confidence to be able to work comfortably, to be able to receive feedback and criticism. That's another thing is that, you know, after vulnerable enough to put new ideas out and be able to receive criticism elegantly.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Yeah. And I mean, I would also add to that, like, I feel in, especially in the copywriting community. Erin, you already kind of touched on this, but I would kind of like to dig into it a little bit more. There's kind of a bit of, like, shaming around the whole idea of being an order taker. And I want to, I would love to talk more about that because, like, I feel, and we all kind of talked about this earlier, but I don't think that either or either end of the spectrum is inherently bad. I just, I personally, my philosophy on it is like, I feel that you need to kind of explore and figure out where you shine the most. Like, I know me specifically, I do my best when I'm allowed to, you know, diagnose and review and, like, take.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
The lead, but I also do like.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
To have some guardrails to play in. I don't. If I have complete brain and I have no guidance whatsoever as a person with ADHD, my brain goes all over the place. I end up getting a million different ideas and then not settling on any of them. So as long as I have some sort of guide rail, then I do much better.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
And what's interesting is I bridge the gap. I really like to be involved in the strategic end of things, but then I also like to do the tactics as well. I don't like to do all of them, but I like to oversee them at a minimum because I have a vision at this point of what it's going to be. And sure, I can communicate that to other people, but I want to make sure that whatever the creative is really delivers on that vision. So. But that said, I have a couple of clients who just toss their work towards me and they're like, can you do this? And I'm like, heck, yeah.
(09:11):
Because I've done a lot of things over the years, not only in my day job roles that I had for a long, more years than I want to say, but not only in those jobs, but also in my business. After I opened my doors, there was a lot of saying yes to a lot of things because I wanted to try all the things and figure out what was fun for me and what wasn't. And, you know, we talked about this in a previous episode. There's a lot of things that I might not do for fun on their own, but, you know, if the money's there, I'm, it's a lot more fun when you're getting compensated for it.
(09:46):
So I think, you know, there's something to be said for having some of those retainers that are consistent, that give you the space to go play with some of the other things that you want to play with and learn or create some offers of your own and know that your bills are covered. So I don't think that there's a right way or a wrong way to do it. I mean, I guess technically to be called a business, you have to have your own offers that people come to you exclusively for. But that doesn't have to be the end all, be all right. Not everyone wants to be a business. It's like, what are your end goals, to your point, Grace? I love having the guardrails of at least knowing what I'm going towards what is the goal here?
(10:28):
Because then that allows me to put up guardrails or to build the process that I want. That helps me stay focused on an episode, on tactics that we use to stay focused and keep things, whether it's guardrails or processes or something.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
Well, and for me, like, if I, another thing that worries me when I don't have those guardrails, you know, is my client going to be happy with the end result? Am I going to pour my heart and soul into this project only to.
Speaker 4 (10:57):
Have them say grace?
Speaker 3 (10:59):
That's not what I wanted at all. And then, you know, there I am sobbing into my coffee at like 03:00 a.m. Trying to figure this out and fix it, because that's how I am. I just, I like having those guardrails. Like I said, it just, it helps me, and I think it helps the client, too.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
When you say guardrails, what do you mean? I'm curious about this because I didn't.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
What I like to do, before I even do anything, I like to sit down with my client or email them and make it very clear. Okay, what is your end game here? What is your objective? What is your goal? And the goal needs to be clearly defined before I start anything. That, to me, is often enough of a guardrail to play with so that I know I, let me take you there, but I need to know where you want to go. It's like, that would be, to me, it'd be like hiring a taxi and just saying, okay, drive. It's like, okay, but where?
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Sounds like an amazing adventure sometime.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
But yeah, sure, when it's pretty scenery, but not when you're, you know, not when you have a million other things you want to do and that you don't want to play that kind of game with your business.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
No, absolutely not. It's just interesting to me to hear that described as guardrails because I'd never heard you talk about it that way. Tell me more.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts on boundaries and guardrails and objectives and things. So anytime, yeah, anytime you want to talk about that, I'm always game.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
So I'm curious.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
We'll do like a round robin on this. What would you recommend for anybody who's listening to this, who's maybe just starting out?
Speaker 4 (12:27):
Like, how can somebody, if they want.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
To transition from order taking into offer building?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
I would say to your point, Grace, what is your goal? Figure out your goal. Is it to bring money in right now? Because you have bills to pay and you need to pay your mortgage. Is it that maybe you have a healthy pad and you have a safe off ramp from whatever you were doing before, or a gentle on ramp to this where you don't have to make the money? So I'd say that's one of the goals to look at, to figure out where you want to be. The other one is, do you know what you want to be doing? If you have a solid yes on this, great. You can start pushing, looking, either looking for those gigs or starting to pitch those gigs. But if you don't know what you're doing, you're going to need to play around a little bit.
(13:14):
So it might be a good idea to find an agency who needs help, who needs to either deepen their bench and get to try a whole heck of a lot of different projects so you can find that out and then you're in an order taker phase. But so what? Like, maybe you're happy. Maybe that's what you want to do. Maybe you find out that you want to go in house with them forever, and that's fine. Maybe you're like, this is not for me. But I have learned some lessons. They're positive or negative. You've learned them. And then you can slowly, if you want to take the shift to offer building or to being known as a strategic mind, then you'll have some more direction than what that looks like.
(13:54):
And there's no reason to not start building that while you're in or to taker mode.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Situation.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Whatever safety net you need. That's my, that's my opinion. I have lots of opinions in.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
I think that's important. To your point, Erin, is discernment around what your level of risk tolerance is. Do you have a safety net where can free to explore, be free to fail and fail fast and often to get ahead quicker, more quickly? Not assessing your risk tolerance to see, you know, what, how you, how aggressively you can prospect, to what degree you can prospect, to what degree you build partnerships, like Erin said, with agencies or established clients, that you may not get the flexibility of strategic input, but you can get the rest in. You can also kind of see from the inside networking and processes and understand how to operate with multiple stakeholders. And, you know, a lot of intrinsic benefits of working either with or for an agency.
(15:06):
That may be something that you need to round out your professional experience before ready to check out on your own. And that's okay.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Yeah, I would agree.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
I think risk tolerance and there's any number of risks, and you're the one who knows what you're willing to take, what you're willing tolerate. Does this in any way for either of you in another round robin? Oh, we didn't get your thoughts on that. That grace.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:30):
So, I mean, I feel like, I.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
Really like what you said about risk tolerance. I feel like you would want to play around first. Like, don't be, don't feel ashamed, for starters, about being in the order taking position, but having an attitude of, like, exploration and play and figuring out what, like, what are the projects that you like to do the most? What kinds of clients do you want to work with? What do they need figuring out?
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Like, okay, I've worked with these kind of people.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
What's, what's the next step? What do they need? And then using that information and leveraging that to build out your future offers. So let's say, for example, like, if you're a copywriter who works largely with.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
Financial advisors and you've, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Let'S say, created web copy for them, like, what would they need after they're done with the web copy? Do they need, do they need emails? Do they need promotional content and kind of building your offers around that? And that's where you start to become an offer builder, right? It's all about the next step and business that way.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
And I would argue, because visibility is near and dear to my heart. And also talking, given some things that have been going on lately, that it's never too soon to start getting visible, to start talking about the things you're learning, to start talking about this experience. And if you're with an agency, maybe you can't talk about the clients, but you can talk about the situations. You talk about situationship and what you're learning. And as you get visible and as you get known for this and as there are takeaways, there's other people who are going to be learning with you.
(17:11):
But if you can start doing this in public from the get go, then you're going to attract a variety of other clients who maybe are doing the things that you're talking about, or maybe they want to be doing the things you're talking about and, or who want to pay you more money to do the things that you're already doing. And I think, you know, that's the mistake so many of us make, is we don't do things in public soon enough. We wait until we're ready. But if you're just talking about the things that you're doing and building this knowledge base and showing up, then you don't. It's a much easier transition to this offer building. You're already starting to build that inbound demand.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
I would have.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Wish I had done from the start. Right. This is, this could be.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
No question.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
I'd known.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, absolutely. Like, I. I mean, I kind of had that experience with my rebrand last. In the last month or so. Right. Like, I, looking back on it, like, my rebrand just went live last week at the time of recording this, and I wish that I'd had time and bandwidth and hired more help in getting it built up in public. I did some of the things, but not as many of the things as I would have liked to do.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Mm.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
So it's hard to get.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
We can do, like, another whole episode on the visibility thing, but it's hard to get comfortable doing things to take up that space.
Speaker 4 (18:36):
Sure. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Like, you know, life, client work, energy levels, like health, you know, like, there's lots of different factors that play into that.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
So any final takeaways that we want to leave our listeners that there is.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
There is no wrong path and figure out a way to fail fast and fabulously so that you can keep moving forward and failing might not look like failing.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Maybe it just looks like, well, I don't want to do that anymore.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
I don't like that.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Or if you have a really bad client experience, it doesn't mean that every client with that same kind of project is going to be like that. So figure out what you can learn. That's the best part about failing.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Failures.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
Yeah, I would agree.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
And I think that my takeaway from this is if you do want to.
Speaker 4 (19:25):
Order or, excuse me, move from order taking to offer building, don't be afraid.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
To say yes, but also don't be afraid to say no as well. Keep your goals in mind.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
Visualize your goals and work toward that.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
And take small steps at a time toward reaching them, creating the offers that you actually want to do. And, you know, like, make notes, get to know yourself, become. This is a struggle for a lot of people, just being self aware and figuring out, I do like this, or.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
I don't like this, and try not to come from a place of desperation or I need to bail out my sinking boat.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Like, just try to look at it as exploration and play. And like you said, if you fail, it's okay, you can rebuild. You know, there are so many stories of people who have reached pretty incredible heights. Like, I think Oprah is an example. There's, like.
Speaker 4 (20:19):
I think Bill Gates.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
Bill Gates, I think, got, like, fired from Apple and then came back as their CEO or something like that. Like, there's. There's tons of people who have failed spectacularly and then come back better than ever.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
I like both of those. And I think my. My takeaway here is that hindsight's always 2020. You have to make the best decisions with what you have right now, and you'll always look back and think that you should have done something differently. But don't let that stop you from taking a step forward. Like, right. Like, do what you need to do for now and do what feels right and. And be okay with it. You have permission to make decisions and to change your decision.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Yes. You have all of the three of our express permissions to play and have fun and do whatever the hell you want to do with your business.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Awesome.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Well, thank you both for this discussion at the coffee table. Thank you, everyone who's listening. We will see you next time.
Welcome to the copy table, the podcast for copywriters who want to get new ideas and inspiration for building and scaling a business you love.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
In this podcast, hosts Grace Fortune, Nicole Morton, and Erin Pennings bring new topics and guests to the table.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
Every single episode, we're spilling the beans on how you can use your interests and expertise to define what success means to you and take steps to achieve it.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Welcome back to the copy table. In this episode, we will be talking about the spectrum of order taking versus offer building. And all three of us, Grace Fortune, Nicole Morton, and me, Erin Pennings, have a variety of experiences here in what it looks like to work for hire, what it looks like to be in an advisory or strategic capacity, and everything kind of in between. So we will be sharing that today. And I'm going to kick things off by asking, Nicole, you know, how would you define these?
Speaker 1 (01:05):
That's a really good question. So the default answer is always, it depends. But I think the key is the level of strategic decision making you have in determining where you along that spectrum. So when you don't have a lot of strategic decision making capabilities or requirements, you know, more the order taker, you're, you know, you're cranking out the widgets and the widgets are supposed to meet the widget spec, right? As opposed to all the way to the other end spectrum where you are leveraging your skills and talents to create strategic direction, creative direction, messaging direction out of whole. And I think that you're at different points in that spectrum at different parts of your career. And they're not a linear, no, I.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Would say that is spot on. You can be at multiple points on the spectrum at any given time, depending on who your clients are, who you're working with, who you're working for, if you're in a job or a retainer type situation or pseudo semi in house or not in house. And I know, Grace, you have some experience here, too. So I have all these thoughts, easy for me to break in. So I'm going to stop that.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Okay. So, I mean, for me, the difference.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
Between order taking versus offer building really.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Comes down to like, okay, who's actually in charge and taking control of the situation. So when you're on the order taking side of the spectrum, your clients are basically telling you what they need from you and you're filling that need. You're not, you're not necessarily strategizing. You're not necessarily like diagnosing or figuring.
Speaker 4 (02:42):
Out what they need. They're telling you.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
And on the other end, offer building is when you figure out what your audience needs or what your clients need, and you tell them that, to me, that's the simplest way to break that down.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
When I think what's really interesting here, I love the way you've both broken that down. What I think is interesting is when you develop authority in a space and you become known for it. Like, people will come to you and they're like, hey, I need website copy. I need a funnel. I need to launch. And so they're coming to you in both a strategic and an order taking capacity because it's like they know what they want or they have an idea, and it's up to you to say, aha. Have you considered this, too? And maybe they don't need to. Maybe their ideas are super solid. But I think maybe at that point, it's about your ability to push back and decide if you want to be everything to everyone or not.
(03:33):
And I think, you know, different people in copywriting have different ideas about this. Some people are like, you never want to be an order taker in business in general, and other people are really comfortable in that space. And I think a lot of us, when we start out, we're like, I just need to make some money. Like, I, for whatever reason, cannot do a regular day job, or I don't want to, or yada, yada. I can do this freelance. It's a lot easier to start with, to find people who are already looking for you because those are hot leads. And so a lot of us start out and we ultimately create ourselves a job looking for other people who need work. And there's nothing wrong with that. And I think, I don't know. I can monologue here for a really long time.
(04:20):
So I'm going to, again, pause the Erin has voice. And, you know, what were your experiences starting out?
Speaker 3 (04:29):
I know in the beginning.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
So as I was transitioning back into the workforce and kind of reorienting self with my marketing experience, I know I was very comfortable in the order taking space. So I had, it was very comfortable having a deadline that was prescribed for me, an objective that was prescribed for me, and expectations that were prescribed for me, but then turned me loose within the confines of the boundaries that was very comfortable. However, the downside of that is being able to see the plan, but you are neither there to identify or prescribe a solution for that. So I can see how that's stifling and frustrating very quickly, depending on how adept you are in creative problem solving and strategic thinking and that's a skill.
(05:30):
And, you know, whether you have the capacity to flex that now or in the future is going to affect how you with that part that end the spectrum per se.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Well, and I think to add to that, like, what's your comfort level with pushing back and bringing to the table. That's true.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
How confident you are.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Even if you're not in the space where you can automatically be like, here's what I think we should do. How comfortable are you stepping up and being like, hey, you know, I have this thought. What do you think about this? And.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Getting comfortable pitching your idea.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
And then being able to take it and run with it. And I think all of us are more successful when we have some buy in and to whatever it is because not only on board, but we have an idea of how to go about doing it because.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 4 (06:20):
Yeah. And it allows you, if you are.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
On the order taking spectrum and you do want to move out of that, it allows you to kind of differentiate yourself and shine and flex those muscles and learn to get more and more comfortable as you continue, like, offering solutions instead of just letting people tell you what they need.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
I think about the training that we had with Mike Kim where he talks about the value of handiwork versus the value of brainy work and the disparate nature of the two and the distance between the two and how you one point to another. And I know that I, I'm at my best when I'm at the creative, problem solving end of it, and I like being able to flex in that space. And that does take a certain amount of experience and confidence to be able to work comfortably, to be able to receive feedback and criticism. That's another thing is that, you know, after vulnerable enough to put new ideas out and be able to receive criticism elegantly.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Yeah. And I mean, I would also add to that, like, I feel in, especially in the copywriting community. Erin, you already kind of touched on this, but I would kind of like to dig into it a little bit more. There's kind of a bit of, like, shaming around the whole idea of being an order taker. And I want to, I would love to talk more about that because, like, I feel, and we all kind of talked about this earlier, but I don't think that either or either end of the spectrum is inherently bad. I just, I personally, my philosophy on it is like, I feel that you need to kind of explore and figure out where you shine the most. Like, I know me specifically, I do my best when I'm allowed to, you know, diagnose and review and, like, take.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
The lead, but I also do like.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
To have some guardrails to play in. I don't. If I have complete brain and I have no guidance whatsoever as a person with ADHD, my brain goes all over the place. I end up getting a million different ideas and then not settling on any of them. So as long as I have some sort of guide rail, then I do much better.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
And what's interesting is I bridge the gap. I really like to be involved in the strategic end of things, but then I also like to do the tactics as well. I don't like to do all of them, but I like to oversee them at a minimum because I have a vision at this point of what it's going to be. And sure, I can communicate that to other people, but I want to make sure that whatever the creative is really delivers on that vision. So. But that said, I have a couple of clients who just toss their work towards me and they're like, can you do this? And I'm like, heck, yeah.
(09:11):
Because I've done a lot of things over the years, not only in my day job roles that I had for a long, more years than I want to say, but not only in those jobs, but also in my business. After I opened my doors, there was a lot of saying yes to a lot of things because I wanted to try all the things and figure out what was fun for me and what wasn't. And, you know, we talked about this in a previous episode. There's a lot of things that I might not do for fun on their own, but, you know, if the money's there, I'm, it's a lot more fun when you're getting compensated for it.
(09:46):
So I think, you know, there's something to be said for having some of those retainers that are consistent, that give you the space to go play with some of the other things that you want to play with and learn or create some offers of your own and know that your bills are covered. So I don't think that there's a right way or a wrong way to do it. I mean, I guess technically to be called a business, you have to have your own offers that people come to you exclusively for. But that doesn't have to be the end all, be all right. Not everyone wants to be a business. It's like, what are your end goals, to your point, Grace? I love having the guardrails of at least knowing what I'm going towards what is the goal here?
(10:28):
Because then that allows me to put up guardrails or to build the process that I want. That helps me stay focused on an episode, on tactics that we use to stay focused and keep things, whether it's guardrails or processes or something.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
Well, and for me, like, if I, another thing that worries me when I don't have those guardrails, you know, is my client going to be happy with the end result? Am I going to pour my heart and soul into this project only to.
Speaker 4 (10:57):
Have them say grace?
Speaker 3 (10:59):
That's not what I wanted at all. And then, you know, there I am sobbing into my coffee at like 03:00 a.m. Trying to figure this out and fix it, because that's how I am. I just, I like having those guardrails. Like I said, it just, it helps me, and I think it helps the client, too.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
When you say guardrails, what do you mean? I'm curious about this because I didn't.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
What I like to do, before I even do anything, I like to sit down with my client or email them and make it very clear. Okay, what is your end game here? What is your objective? What is your goal? And the goal needs to be clearly defined before I start anything. That, to me, is often enough of a guardrail to play with so that I know I, let me take you there, but I need to know where you want to go. It's like, that would be, to me, it'd be like hiring a taxi and just saying, okay, drive. It's like, okay, but where?
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Sounds like an amazing adventure sometime.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
But yeah, sure, when it's pretty scenery, but not when you're, you know, not when you have a million other things you want to do and that you don't want to play that kind of game with your business.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
No, absolutely not. It's just interesting to me to hear that described as guardrails because I'd never heard you talk about it that way. Tell me more.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts on boundaries and guardrails and objectives and things. So anytime, yeah, anytime you want to talk about that, I'm always game.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
So I'm curious.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
We'll do like a round robin on this. What would you recommend for anybody who's listening to this, who's maybe just starting out?
Speaker 4 (12:27):
Like, how can somebody, if they want.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
To transition from order taking into offer building?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
I would say to your point, Grace, what is your goal? Figure out your goal. Is it to bring money in right now? Because you have bills to pay and you need to pay your mortgage. Is it that maybe you have a healthy pad and you have a safe off ramp from whatever you were doing before, or a gentle on ramp to this where you don't have to make the money? So I'd say that's one of the goals to look at, to figure out where you want to be. The other one is, do you know what you want to be doing? If you have a solid yes on this, great. You can start pushing, looking, either looking for those gigs or starting to pitch those gigs. But if you don't know what you're doing, you're going to need to play around a little bit.
(13:14):
So it might be a good idea to find an agency who needs help, who needs to either deepen their bench and get to try a whole heck of a lot of different projects so you can find that out and then you're in an order taker phase. But so what? Like, maybe you're happy. Maybe that's what you want to do. Maybe you find out that you want to go in house with them forever, and that's fine. Maybe you're like, this is not for me. But I have learned some lessons. They're positive or negative. You've learned them. And then you can slowly, if you want to take the shift to offer building or to being known as a strategic mind, then you'll have some more direction than what that looks like.
(13:54):
And there's no reason to not start building that while you're in or to taker mode.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Situation.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Whatever safety net you need. That's my, that's my opinion. I have lots of opinions in.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
I think that's important. To your point, Erin, is discernment around what your level of risk tolerance is. Do you have a safety net where can free to explore, be free to fail and fail fast and often to get ahead quicker, more quickly? Not assessing your risk tolerance to see, you know, what, how you, how aggressively you can prospect, to what degree you can prospect, to what degree you build partnerships, like Erin said, with agencies or established clients, that you may not get the flexibility of strategic input, but you can get the rest in. You can also kind of see from the inside networking and processes and understand how to operate with multiple stakeholders. And, you know, a lot of intrinsic benefits of working either with or for an agency.
(15:06):
That may be something that you need to round out your professional experience before ready to check out on your own. And that's okay.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Yeah, I would agree.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
I think risk tolerance and there's any number of risks, and you're the one who knows what you're willing to take, what you're willing tolerate. Does this in any way for either of you in another round robin? Oh, we didn't get your thoughts on that. That grace.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:30):
So, I mean, I feel like, I.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
Really like what you said about risk tolerance. I feel like you would want to play around first. Like, don't be, don't feel ashamed, for starters, about being in the order taking position, but having an attitude of, like, exploration and play and figuring out what, like, what are the projects that you like to do the most? What kinds of clients do you want to work with? What do they need figuring out?
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Like, okay, I've worked with these kind of people.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
What's, what's the next step? What do they need? And then using that information and leveraging that to build out your future offers. So let's say, for example, like, if you're a copywriter who works largely with.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
Financial advisors and you've, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Let'S say, created web copy for them, like, what would they need after they're done with the web copy? Do they need, do they need emails? Do they need promotional content and kind of building your offers around that? And that's where you start to become an offer builder, right? It's all about the next step and business that way.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
And I would argue, because visibility is near and dear to my heart. And also talking, given some things that have been going on lately, that it's never too soon to start getting visible, to start talking about the things you're learning, to start talking about this experience. And if you're with an agency, maybe you can't talk about the clients, but you can talk about the situations. You talk about situationship and what you're learning. And as you get visible and as you get known for this and as there are takeaways, there's other people who are going to be learning with you.
(17:11):
But if you can start doing this in public from the get go, then you're going to attract a variety of other clients who maybe are doing the things that you're talking about, or maybe they want to be doing the things you're talking about and, or who want to pay you more money to do the things that you're already doing. And I think, you know, that's the mistake so many of us make, is we don't do things in public soon enough. We wait until we're ready. But if you're just talking about the things that you're doing and building this knowledge base and showing up, then you don't. It's a much easier transition to this offer building. You're already starting to build that inbound demand.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
I would have.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Wish I had done from the start. Right. This is, this could be.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
No question.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
I'd known.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, absolutely. Like, I. I mean, I kind of had that experience with my rebrand last. In the last month or so. Right. Like, I, looking back on it, like, my rebrand just went live last week at the time of recording this, and I wish that I'd had time and bandwidth and hired more help in getting it built up in public. I did some of the things, but not as many of the things as I would have liked to do.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Mm.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
So it's hard to get.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
We can do, like, another whole episode on the visibility thing, but it's hard to get comfortable doing things to take up that space.
Speaker 4 (18:36):
Sure. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Like, you know, life, client work, energy levels, like health, you know, like, there's lots of different factors that play into that.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
So any final takeaways that we want to leave our listeners that there is.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
There is no wrong path and figure out a way to fail fast and fabulously so that you can keep moving forward and failing might not look like failing.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Maybe it just looks like, well, I don't want to do that anymore.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
I don't like that.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Or if you have a really bad client experience, it doesn't mean that every client with that same kind of project is going to be like that. So figure out what you can learn. That's the best part about failing.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Failures.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
Yeah, I would agree.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
And I think that my takeaway from this is if you do want to.
Speaker 4 (19:25):
Order or, excuse me, move from order taking to offer building, don't be afraid.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
To say yes, but also don't be afraid to say no as well. Keep your goals in mind.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
Visualize your goals and work toward that.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
And take small steps at a time toward reaching them, creating the offers that you actually want to do. And, you know, like, make notes, get to know yourself, become. This is a struggle for a lot of people, just being self aware and figuring out, I do like this, or.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
I don't like this, and try not to come from a place of desperation or I need to bail out my sinking boat.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Like, just try to look at it as exploration and play. And like you said, if you fail, it's okay, you can rebuild. You know, there are so many stories of people who have reached pretty incredible heights. Like, I think Oprah is an example. There's, like.
Speaker 4 (20:19):
I think Bill Gates.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
Bill Gates, I think, got, like, fired from Apple and then came back as their CEO or something like that. Like, there's. There's tons of people who have failed spectacularly and then come back better than ever.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
I like both of those. And I think my. My takeaway here is that hindsight's always 2020. You have to make the best decisions with what you have right now, and you'll always look back and think that you should have done something differently. But don't let that stop you from taking a step forward. Like, right. Like, do what you need to do for now and do what feels right and. And be okay with it. You have permission to make decisions and to change your decision.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Yes. You have all of the three of our express permissions to play and have fun and do whatever the hell you want to do with your business.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Awesome.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Well, thank you both for this discussion at the coffee table. Thank you, everyone who's listening. We will see you next time.
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