June 4, 2024 • 19 mins
Welcome back to another episode of The Copy Table! 🎵 "Should I stay or should I go now?" 🎵 In this episode, your hosts Erin, Nicole, and Grace get inspired by these song lyrics and discuss an important part of running a copywriting business: how to remove yourself from a client or project (permanently or just for now) without burning it all down. 'Cause sometimes a relationship just doesn't work--but there's no need to go nuclear.  Listen in, and you'll learn:
- How to set boundaries and handle difficult conversations with your clients-- and a trick that can help reword too-harsh "I wrote this when I was super annoyed and I need to rethink this" emails.
- How to know if it's time to cut ties permanently, or give your client the Ross-Rachel treatment. Â
Most importantly? You'll learn that you are totally capable of navigating your client relationships, and leaving behind ones that just don't work for you in a way that won't harm your business reputation.Â
The takeaway? There really is no one right way to build a copywriting business you love, but it's on you to use your powers of persuasion responsibly!
Whether you need actionable tips to market your copywriting business, a push to raise your rates, or the courage to plant your flag in a new niche, we've got you covered. Over the years, we've met some extraordinary people who've helped us, and we're ready to help you avoid the pitfalls that so many copywriters find.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nicole (00:02):
Welcome to the copy table, the podcast for copywriters who want to get new ideas and inspiration for building and scaling a business you love.
Erin (00:10):
In this podcast, hosts Grace Fortune, Nicole Morton, and Erin Pennings bring new topics and guests to the table.
Grace (00:16):
Every single episode, we're spilling the beans on how you can use your interests and expertise to define what success means to you and take steps to achieve it.
Nicole (00:30):
Welcome back to the copy table. On this episode, we're going to talk about it's not just a song. It's a lifestyle. Should I stay or should I go?
Erin (00:44):
All the giggles. All the giggles. We hope you're laughing with us.
Nicole (00:50):
So we're going to talk about, you know, when you're working, whether it's a client or you are a subcontractor, when it's time to cut ties, when to know if it's permanent or you're on a break like Ross and Rachel. We hope this episode will resonate with you as you're making business decisions, as your business starts to grow and scale. So, Erin and Grace, we've all been in a similar situation where we've had to decide whether or not to move forward with the project, with a client, with a partner, not like the people you live with. Those guys are lovely, but that's a.
Erin (01:25):
Totally different discussion with much longer lasting implications.
Nicole (01:31):
So let's talk about it. When do you find yourself in that kind of position? What are your boundaries? What are your deal breakers? When do you know if it's time to just put something on pause? When do you know that it's time to exit gracefully? And how. And you know, when you get to that situation, and maybe the partner that you're working with or the project that you're working with is perfectly fine. It's just not your jam. And it's. It's not me. It's me.
Erin (01:59):
Situation and not me. It's me. Yeah. No. Like, I. It's such a hard thing. And I go back to, like, the last job I had, and how do I know if it was time to quit? I agonized over this for, like, probably the better part of a year.
Grace (02:13):
Sure.
Erin (02:14):
And so I think it's the same thing with clients, even though the implications and the repercussions are less immediate is maybe not the right word. But, like, if it's a client and it's not your full job, it's an easier thing to let go of than if it's the job. But still, these are people. Regardless of whether it's a project that I haven't started working on yet, or if it's someone who I've been working with for a while. These are people that I care about. I feel deeply invested in, and I want to see the outcome be a win. But there comes a point when sometimes it's just not a good fit. And there's a lot of examples. I know we're talking about that in our pre show notes. Like, we've all got them. We've all got. Sometimes it's super toxic. Toxic.
(03:01):
Sometimes it's super toxic, and sometimes it's just like growing up and growing out of things.
Nicole (03:08):
Yes.
Erin (03:08):
And it's okay. There's never a wrong time to do it. But I want to give this example, and then I'll stop talking and let the two of you wing. Last fall, I almost took a job, and I came very close to saying yes. And it wouldn't have been fully in house, but it would have been a w two role, and it would not have paid nearly as much as I wanted it to. And I think it's, like, cool. It's secure work. After a year, that was a real roller coaster. But I still had my same overhead that it wasn't going to cover even if they paid my taxes. So talk about agonizing. I didn't sleep for, like, three days, and I sat down with my husband. First, he said, bet on yourself, which was, like, the coolest thing ever.
(03:55):
But second, I was talking to a friend, and she said, if it's not a hell yes, it's a no. If in your gut there's something that's standing out, and it's not a hell yes, I want to do this. This is not the same as taking a lower paying project just to make ends meet. This is like a commitment that you're like, well, this. This could have huge repercussions.
Grace (04:13):
Sure.
Erin (04:14):
And sometimes it's easier to say no ahead of time than it is to send that breakup email down the road. So how do you know? I think it's a gut check. And, you know, when I think back to that last job that I had, my therapist is like, clearly you've been thinking about this for a while. What is the worst thing that happens if you say no? And it was like, oh, well, I guess I find another job or I come crawling back and I try not to burn the bridge. And so I think. And then that's ultimately, I think, what this episode is about. How to exit gracefully without burning that bridge or to decide no, I want to light that shit on fire and watch it go boom. Boom.
Grace (04:52):
Either one is okay.
Erin (04:53):
You just have to be okay with the outcome.
Nicole (04:56):
Yeah. And that's the key, is, you know, you, you have all the decision making power, but you have to be able to live with the consequences of said decision.
Erin (05:06):
And so I think what's the worst that's going to happen here? Yeah, what do those conversations need to look like?
Grace (05:16):
Yeah, I would totally agree with that. And, like, to that end, to answer the question, like, you know, should I stay or should I go now? I think, like, for business owners, like copywriters like us, should I stay or should I go? I think the questions that you need to be asking yourself as well is, like, what does my working day look like if I say yes? And what does my working day look like if I say no?
(05:39):
So, like, for example, if you know, like you, Erin, if you're, if you were considering taking a job, even if it's not technically, like an employee role, even if it's a w two, as they call it in the US, or like a part time or contracting role, if you know that's going to take away other opportunities that could be coming in that are more lucrative or more in line with what you want to do and what your goals are, then that's. That's a no, right? At least in my opinion anyway. But if you sometimes feel like you don't have maybe the luxury of saying no, like, you need money now, you don't have time to wait for somebody to maybe say yes to one of your offerings, then that's something that you need to consider as well.
(06:19):
And it's important to remind yourself that there's no such thing as permanent in this industry. Like, you can change whenever you want to. There's always going to be other opportunities to do something different. So saying no doesn't have to be scary. And saying yes doesn't have to be scary. It's just what you've decided to do. For now. Like, I do launch copywriting, but I've also said yes to writing blogs. I've said yes to writing not launch related emails and not launch related, like landing pages and things like that. Like, you can say yes to something temporary. So, like, don't pigeonhole yourself into thinking that your decisions are always permanent, because they're not.
Erin (06:55):
And I want to add to that, if you have any reservations about something but you decide to move yes, because it's the right thing for right now. It's like mister, right. Not Mister right now. Right now. Not Mister right. We've got all kinds of fun pop culture references here. If you can't write it into the contract, at least write it into your own mental, personal contract with yourself. I want to reevaluate this in three months and see if this is working.
Grace (07:15):
Yeah.
Erin (07:16):
And, you know, some of the contracts I've had with clients, I'm like, I don't know. This could be like a real pain in the rear end, or it could be great. I want to give myself the opportunity to see. Then you can write that trial time frame into sometimes a contract, but otherwise, just say, I'm going to give it three months and try it. And if it's absolutely atrocious before then, you just exit stage left early and be like, you know what? And you have to be okay with that. So, Grace, I know as the email person and as the customer service guru, who I sometimes turn to, like, how do I say this? And make it like I'm a total raging, angry human. How do you handle some of those?
(07:56):
I know we all have different approaches, but how have you handled that in the past?
Grace (07:59):
When I'm handling these kind of interactions, like, the first thing that I think of as, what is my goal in this interaction? Do I want to cut ties completely? Do I want to preserve the relationship? It's almost like a flowchart in my brain. It's like, okay, do I want to preserve, or as you said, light that shit on fire, Erin, what do I want to do? So if the answer is, you know, I don't care about the relationship, this is bad enough where I literally do not care, if I interact with this person again, then that's going to influence how. How I respond. And, like, when you have asked me for my input on things, like, I have thought about that from that lens, too.
(08:36):
And then if I do want to preserve the relationship, I'm going to be a little bit more careful and a little bit softer in my approach. So I want to make sure that when I am interacting with somebody from a customer service perspective, that I'm always, like, acknowledging what their side could be, how they're feeling, what their needs are. So if I'm thinking through the lens of, like, do I want to not work with this person again but still not burn the relationship? I would forget. I personally would say, hey, either, this isn't working out for me for whatever reason. Like, I don't have the capacity. I don't think that my style of copywriting is right for you. Then I will just let my clients know, you know, in plain English.
(09:17):
I don't want to beat around the bush and make them not describe accurately what the issue is with continuing just because, like, I want to give them opportunity to reevaluate maybe how they're approaching things if, let's say, for example, if they're not giving the right feedback for me to implement on revisions, and that's causing, like, a, you know, like, a feedback loop where the project isn't getting done because I'm not getting what I need from them. I will clearly indicate that. I will say, like, when we sign on to this project, I gave you information on my preferred feedback process in order for you to get the best results that you want. I'm not getting that from you for whatever reason. Like, maybe it doesn't fit in with your schedule. Either way, this isn't working.
(09:55):
And just being clear but kind about it, that's always my goal. Be clear but kind.
Nicole (09:59):
Yeah. I want to shout out a little bit of mental health assessment, as well as the squishy empath and nervous chihuahua of the trio. The gut check for me, is how my body is reacting to something. So either I am in a place where I don't feel professionally safe or a place where I don't feel confident and I trust so deeply a sounding board of my peers and mentors to kind of help me evaluate whether this is a self doubt thing where I just, you know, I, again, shout out to Linda Perry, what's the story that I'm telling myself about this? Or if it's truly something where, you know, something is just not quite right?
(10:38):
And like you said, grace, it's, you know, is it a conversation, a hard conversation that we have to have about, you know, how can we best serve one another and, you know, be good stewards of their brand and their project? Or is it time to exit gracefully? And it's the, oh, suddenly, this is the something suddenly came up Brady Bunch episode, where I will try and leave them either with resources that, you know, that they can use to find someone of the same capacity, or if it's someone that it's just not a great fit for me. But as a dreamy client, I absolutely give them a series of referrals. It's a little bit more of mental emotional than, like, a professional capacity situation.
Erin (11:20):
And I'm not real good at separating out the logic from the emotional.
Nicole (11:24):
Yes.
Erin (11:25):
So I can make all the logical justifications one way and I can make them the other, and I just get stuck on this fence, and I don't know how to get myself off, and then it does. It has to come down to a gut check. It's like, whatever that decision is, once you make it, isn't it such a weight off your shoulders? It really is.
Nicole (11:42):
It really is. And then you go back in second gauss yourself and shame spiral, and that's a completely another episode. Erin, you're the outdoorsy person. It's, you know, leave this better than what you found it.
Erin (11:54):
Yeah, absolutely. I hate to burn bridges. I very rarely burn them. And sometimes I wish I could do a job of it, because sometimes it would be really satisfying to watch some of this stuff go boom. But, you know, I just thinking of some specific examples, and I won't names. I'll let you guys decide if you want to names, but I don't think any of us want to names because of that. Not wanting to watch things go boom. But there was a time specifically great client. I love them. They're still a good friend. But I started to resent the work because they were less than 25% of my income, but they ended up taking about 80% of my time. Lots of calls, lots of check ins, which is fine from a communications perspective.
(12:38):
They were great communicators, but it wasn't great from a business perspective. So the first step was to reduce the amount of time. And I said, I'm not going to be on calls with your team anymore, but I'll do these things. And I ended up getting the same amount done for them in a quarter of the time that it was taking, which was really telling on. You know, that meeting could have been an email, and sometimes it couldn't. Sometimes you just have to pin people down. And then the next step was like, you know what? This just isn't profitable. And were all at TCC IRl in Nashville when Brian Spirenello came online on the stage.
(13:17):
You know, he taught us that, you know, first say a bigger number if you want to make more money, if it's a money issue, and then be okay with letting it go if they say no or, you know, negotiating down from that point as opposed to up to that point. But then he said, I can't make a business case for that.
Grace (13:34):
Yes.
Erin (13:35):
And it's like, that really is. It's one of the magic phrases that I use in my business of a magic email, a magic phrase. And it just, even if I don't use those specific words out loud, that is how it's like, oh, it's a business thing. This is not personal. And if they don't and they come raging to you. It was a really big red flag that you just dodged. But I don't think most people are going to come raging. Most people are going to understand. And there's been times where, you know, I have a good working relationship with someone and, but I know that there are some challenging points that come with working with them. And instead of just making a blind introduction, I have said them. I've said, here's who this is. Here are some of the challenges.
(14:25):
Just to be completely upfront, would you like this introduction? Because I don't want to leave them hanging, but I don't want it to be like this negative thing for everyone involved if it's not a good. So I like to let both people make that choice.
Grace (14:38):
Yeah, I would agree with that. And like, this could be something for maybe a future episode. But I really liked what you said about negotiating your price. So if you're thinking of saying like, no, because it's not enough money for the amount of time investment that you're going to be committing to this client, you can always, as far as negotiation goes, always start higher than what your original goal is. Because if you start at what you want and the client comes back says, that's too expensive, there's only down from there. If you start higher than what you originally wanted, then you can go down to more into the area that you are hoping for, and then it still feels good. Your client still feels like they maybe got a little bit of a deal and then you're still getting what you want.
(15:21):
This way it'll kind of help, maybe take a little bit of that resentment away from the work. At least that's where is coming from.
Erin (15:27):
Is it money? Is it time? Is it the work?
Grace (15:30):
Sure.
Erin (15:30):
And I think that's where you have to do the deep work is what is the source of this. And really be reflective.
Grace (15:36):
Yes. Being 100% important here.
Erin (15:39):
You know, what else is going on in your brain. I get into blow shit up mode sometimes. Like when I, you know, I'm a woman, we have like cycles that we go through that really affect everything from mental health. And I tend to go into this downward spiral. And if I get into this mode where I'm like, everything sucks and I'm dying, or, you know, I'm. Everything sucks, I'm ready to blow it up. I look, take a look like, what else is going on and then try to sit on it for 24 to 48 hours before you make big decisions. Although sometimes the emails you write when you're in that pissy mode, like, really get really good results. So that's a choice. That's a huge choice that you have to make.
Grace (16:16):
I would maybe caution you, like, write it, write your pissy email, but then just leave it in draft. Or better yet, just put it in a document that doesn't go anywhere near your email account so you can't accidentally send it. May or may not have done that once or twice. Yeah, that's a fun story. But anyway, like, keep. Keep it in draft, be as mad as you want about it, and then go back after you've had time to cool off and then rewrite it or.
Erin (16:42):
Plug it into my best friend chat GPT, and you're like, okay, this is the email where I feel really angry. This is not the vibe I want to put out. How can you help me soften this? These are the outcomes that I want to make sure we're speaking to.
Grace (16:55):
I like that. Yeah. I've never, I've never used ChatGPT for that specifically.
Erin (16:59):
For the win. For the win.
Grace (17:02):
I like it. Okay, so I want to do a round robin. How do you decide whether it's time to leave completely or if you just maybe need to take a break for a couple months? Nicole, what do you think about that?
Nicole (17:15):
So the deal breakers would be impinging on my values. One. So if that was something that went against my values and I considered it either be, you know, shady or unethical, that's clearly. That's a boundary. Consistent disrespect for boundaries. I had a project once where the person who was most vocal about my work wasn't even on the desi, didn't have any approval process at all, but would criticize my work in front of clients. So blatant disrespect of boundaries, that's. That's a big one, you know, not respecting my time. So those, I think, would be the big three for me. What about you, Erin?
Erin (17:52):
Yeah, I think it's a vibe check. Where is this coming from? For me, it's a vibe check, I think. And I don't necessarily have those criteria set out in the mental rubric, but where is this coming from? What kind of a resentment is this? Is this something I can move past? Is it fixable or is it broken at this point in time? Again, it's like that mental flowchart. Grace and grace, over to you. Let's do this rapid fire before we sign.
Grace (18:19):
Okay. So, for me is, I have to ask myself, I want to agree with all of what you guys have said, like, if it's an infringement on my values, disrespect, it's time to leave completely. That I will not tolerate. If it's just time to take a break, that, for me, is like, am I just maybe bored for now? I get bored very quickly. Unfortunately, that's the ADHD. If I'm just bored, then it might be okay to take a break. If maybe that specific project that they're offering me is not a fit, I might say, you know what? This isn't really my cup of tea. Is there maybe another way that we can work together? Then that's take a break for me.
Erin (18:56):
I'm happy.
Grace (18:57):
Yeah.
Erin (18:58):
Well, thank you to everyone who's tuned in for this episode of should I stay or should I go? Whether to exit stage left or keep the home fires burning, I don't know. I'm just coming up with random things to say at this point. But this is such a good discussion. I feel like we could talk about this for hours. If this is triggering any ideas, questions, internal discussions for you, please let us know. Reach out to us. Hello@thecoffeetable.com. And we would love to hear from you.
Grace (19:26):
Thanks for listening.
Nicole (19:27):
See you next time.
Welcome to the copy table, the podcast for copywriters who want to get new ideas and inspiration for building and scaling a business you love.
Erin (00:10):
In this podcast, hosts Grace Fortune, Nicole Morton, and Erin Pennings bring new topics and guests to the table.
Grace (00:16):
Every single episode, we're spilling the beans on how you can use your interests and expertise to define what success means to you and take steps to achieve it.
Nicole (00:30):
Welcome back to the copy table. On this episode, we're going to talk about it's not just a song. It's a lifestyle. Should I stay or should I go?
Erin (00:44):
All the giggles. All the giggles. We hope you're laughing with us.
Nicole (00:50):
So we're going to talk about, you know, when you're working, whether it's a client or you are a subcontractor, when it's time to cut ties, when to know if it's permanent or you're on a break like Ross and Rachel. We hope this episode will resonate with you as you're making business decisions, as your business starts to grow and scale. So, Erin and Grace, we've all been in a similar situation where we've had to decide whether or not to move forward with the project, with a client, with a partner, not like the people you live with. Those guys are lovely, but that's a.
Erin (01:25):
Totally different discussion with much longer lasting implications.
Nicole (01:31):
So let's talk about it. When do you find yourself in that kind of position? What are your boundaries? What are your deal breakers? When do you know if it's time to just put something on pause? When do you know that it's time to exit gracefully? And how. And you know, when you get to that situation, and maybe the partner that you're working with or the project that you're working with is perfectly fine. It's just not your jam. And it's. It's not me. It's me.
Erin (01:59):
Situation and not me. It's me. Yeah. No. Like, I. It's such a hard thing. And I go back to, like, the last job I had, and how do I know if it was time to quit? I agonized over this for, like, probably the better part of a year.
Grace (02:13):
Sure.
Erin (02:14):
And so I think it's the same thing with clients, even though the implications and the repercussions are less immediate is maybe not the right word. But, like, if it's a client and it's not your full job, it's an easier thing to let go of than if it's the job. But still, these are people. Regardless of whether it's a project that I haven't started working on yet, or if it's someone who I've been working with for a while. These are people that I care about. I feel deeply invested in, and I want to see the outcome be a win. But there comes a point when sometimes it's just not a good fit. And there's a lot of examples. I know we're talking about that in our pre show notes. Like, we've all got them. We've all got. Sometimes it's super toxic. Toxic.
(03:01):
Sometimes it's super toxic, and sometimes it's just like growing up and growing out of things.
Nicole (03:08):
Yes.
Erin (03:08):
And it's okay. There's never a wrong time to do it. But I want to give this example, and then I'll stop talking and let the two of you wing. Last fall, I almost took a job, and I came very close to saying yes. And it wouldn't have been fully in house, but it would have been a w two role, and it would not have paid nearly as much as I wanted it to. And I think it's, like, cool. It's secure work. After a year, that was a real roller coaster. But I still had my same overhead that it wasn't going to cover even if they paid my taxes. So talk about agonizing. I didn't sleep for, like, three days, and I sat down with my husband. First, he said, bet on yourself, which was, like, the coolest thing ever.
(03:55):
But second, I was talking to a friend, and she said, if it's not a hell yes, it's a no. If in your gut there's something that's standing out, and it's not a hell yes, I want to do this. This is not the same as taking a lower paying project just to make ends meet. This is like a commitment that you're like, well, this. This could have huge repercussions.
Grace (04:13):
Sure.
Erin (04:14):
And sometimes it's easier to say no ahead of time than it is to send that breakup email down the road. So how do you know? I think it's a gut check. And, you know, when I think back to that last job that I had, my therapist is like, clearly you've been thinking about this for a while. What is the worst thing that happens if you say no? And it was like, oh, well, I guess I find another job or I come crawling back and I try not to burn the bridge. And so I think. And then that's ultimately, I think, what this episode is about. How to exit gracefully without burning that bridge or to decide no, I want to light that shit on fire and watch it go boom. Boom.
Grace (04:52):
Either one is okay.
Erin (04:53):
You just have to be okay with the outcome.
Nicole (04:56):
Yeah. And that's the key, is, you know, you, you have all the decision making power, but you have to be able to live with the consequences of said decision.
Erin (05:06):
And so I think what's the worst that's going to happen here? Yeah, what do those conversations need to look like?
Grace (05:16):
Yeah, I would totally agree with that. And, like, to that end, to answer the question, like, you know, should I stay or should I go now? I think, like, for business owners, like copywriters like us, should I stay or should I go? I think the questions that you need to be asking yourself as well is, like, what does my working day look like if I say yes? And what does my working day look like if I say no?
(05:39):
So, like, for example, if you know, like you, Erin, if you're, if you were considering taking a job, even if it's not technically, like an employee role, even if it's a w two, as they call it in the US, or like a part time or contracting role, if you know that's going to take away other opportunities that could be coming in that are more lucrative or more in line with what you want to do and what your goals are, then that's. That's a no, right? At least in my opinion anyway. But if you sometimes feel like you don't have maybe the luxury of saying no, like, you need money now, you don't have time to wait for somebody to maybe say yes to one of your offerings, then that's something that you need to consider as well.
(06:19):
And it's important to remind yourself that there's no such thing as permanent in this industry. Like, you can change whenever you want to. There's always going to be other opportunities to do something different. So saying no doesn't have to be scary. And saying yes doesn't have to be scary. It's just what you've decided to do. For now. Like, I do launch copywriting, but I've also said yes to writing blogs. I've said yes to writing not launch related emails and not launch related, like landing pages and things like that. Like, you can say yes to something temporary. So, like, don't pigeonhole yourself into thinking that your decisions are always permanent, because they're not.
Erin (06:55):
And I want to add to that, if you have any reservations about something but you decide to move yes, because it's the right thing for right now. It's like mister, right. Not Mister right now. Right now. Not Mister right. We've got all kinds of fun pop culture references here. If you can't write it into the contract, at least write it into your own mental, personal contract with yourself. I want to reevaluate this in three months and see if this is working.
Grace (07:15):
Yeah.
Erin (07:16):
And, you know, some of the contracts I've had with clients, I'm like, I don't know. This could be like a real pain in the rear end, or it could be great. I want to give myself the opportunity to see. Then you can write that trial time frame into sometimes a contract, but otherwise, just say, I'm going to give it three months and try it. And if it's absolutely atrocious before then, you just exit stage left early and be like, you know what? And you have to be okay with that. So, Grace, I know as the email person and as the customer service guru, who I sometimes turn to, like, how do I say this? And make it like I'm a total raging, angry human. How do you handle some of those?
(07:56):
I know we all have different approaches, but how have you handled that in the past?
Grace (07:59):
When I'm handling these kind of interactions, like, the first thing that I think of as, what is my goal in this interaction? Do I want to cut ties completely? Do I want to preserve the relationship? It's almost like a flowchart in my brain. It's like, okay, do I want to preserve, or as you said, light that shit on fire, Erin, what do I want to do? So if the answer is, you know, I don't care about the relationship, this is bad enough where I literally do not care, if I interact with this person again, then that's going to influence how. How I respond. And, like, when you have asked me for my input on things, like, I have thought about that from that lens, too.
(08:36):
And then if I do want to preserve the relationship, I'm going to be a little bit more careful and a little bit softer in my approach. So I want to make sure that when I am interacting with somebody from a customer service perspective, that I'm always, like, acknowledging what their side could be, how they're feeling, what their needs are. So if I'm thinking through the lens of, like, do I want to not work with this person again but still not burn the relationship? I would forget. I personally would say, hey, either, this isn't working out for me for whatever reason. Like, I don't have the capacity. I don't think that my style of copywriting is right for you. Then I will just let my clients know, you know, in plain English.
(09:17):
I don't want to beat around the bush and make them not describe accurately what the issue is with continuing just because, like, I want to give them opportunity to reevaluate maybe how they're approaching things if, let's say, for example, if they're not giving the right feedback for me to implement on revisions, and that's causing, like, a, you know, like, a feedback loop where the project isn't getting done because I'm not getting what I need from them. I will clearly indicate that. I will say, like, when we sign on to this project, I gave you information on my preferred feedback process in order for you to get the best results that you want. I'm not getting that from you for whatever reason. Like, maybe it doesn't fit in with your schedule. Either way, this isn't working.
(09:55):
And just being clear but kind about it, that's always my goal. Be clear but kind.
Nicole (09:59):
Yeah. I want to shout out a little bit of mental health assessment, as well as the squishy empath and nervous chihuahua of the trio. The gut check for me, is how my body is reacting to something. So either I am in a place where I don't feel professionally safe or a place where I don't feel confident and I trust so deeply a sounding board of my peers and mentors to kind of help me evaluate whether this is a self doubt thing where I just, you know, I, again, shout out to Linda Perry, what's the story that I'm telling myself about this? Or if it's truly something where, you know, something is just not quite right?
(10:38):
And like you said, grace, it's, you know, is it a conversation, a hard conversation that we have to have about, you know, how can we best serve one another and, you know, be good stewards of their brand and their project? Or is it time to exit gracefully? And it's the, oh, suddenly, this is the something suddenly came up Brady Bunch episode, where I will try and leave them either with resources that, you know, that they can use to find someone of the same capacity, or if it's someone that it's just not a great fit for me. But as a dreamy client, I absolutely give them a series of referrals. It's a little bit more of mental emotional than, like, a professional capacity situation.
Erin (11:20):
And I'm not real good at separating out the logic from the emotional.
Nicole (11:24):
Yes.
Erin (11:25):
So I can make all the logical justifications one way and I can make them the other, and I just get stuck on this fence, and I don't know how to get myself off, and then it does. It has to come down to a gut check. It's like, whatever that decision is, once you make it, isn't it such a weight off your shoulders? It really is.
Nicole (11:42):
It really is. And then you go back in second gauss yourself and shame spiral, and that's a completely another episode. Erin, you're the outdoorsy person. It's, you know, leave this better than what you found it.
Erin (11:54):
Yeah, absolutely. I hate to burn bridges. I very rarely burn them. And sometimes I wish I could do a job of it, because sometimes it would be really satisfying to watch some of this stuff go boom. But, you know, I just thinking of some specific examples, and I won't names. I'll let you guys decide if you want to names, but I don't think any of us want to names because of that. Not wanting to watch things go boom. But there was a time specifically great client. I love them. They're still a good friend. But I started to resent the work because they were less than 25% of my income, but they ended up taking about 80% of my time. Lots of calls, lots of check ins, which is fine from a communications perspective.
(12:38):
They were great communicators, but it wasn't great from a business perspective. So the first step was to reduce the amount of time. And I said, I'm not going to be on calls with your team anymore, but I'll do these things. And I ended up getting the same amount done for them in a quarter of the time that it was taking, which was really telling on. You know, that meeting could have been an email, and sometimes it couldn't. Sometimes you just have to pin people down. And then the next step was like, you know what? This just isn't profitable. And were all at TCC IRl in Nashville when Brian Spirenello came online on the stage.
(13:17):
You know, he taught us that, you know, first say a bigger number if you want to make more money, if it's a money issue, and then be okay with letting it go if they say no or, you know, negotiating down from that point as opposed to up to that point. But then he said, I can't make a business case for that.
Grace (13:34):
Yes.
Erin (13:35):
And it's like, that really is. It's one of the magic phrases that I use in my business of a magic email, a magic phrase. And it just, even if I don't use those specific words out loud, that is how it's like, oh, it's a business thing. This is not personal. And if they don't and they come raging to you. It was a really big red flag that you just dodged. But I don't think most people are going to come raging. Most people are going to understand. And there's been times where, you know, I have a good working relationship with someone and, but I know that there are some challenging points that come with working with them. And instead of just making a blind introduction, I have said them. I've said, here's who this is. Here are some of the challenges.
(14:25):
Just to be completely upfront, would you like this introduction? Because I don't want to leave them hanging, but I don't want it to be like this negative thing for everyone involved if it's not a good. So I like to let both people make that choice.
Grace (14:38):
Yeah, I would agree with that. And like, this could be something for maybe a future episode. But I really liked what you said about negotiating your price. So if you're thinking of saying like, no, because it's not enough money for the amount of time investment that you're going to be committing to this client, you can always, as far as negotiation goes, always start higher than what your original goal is. Because if you start at what you want and the client comes back says, that's too expensive, there's only down from there. If you start higher than what you originally wanted, then you can go down to more into the area that you are hoping for, and then it still feels good. Your client still feels like they maybe got a little bit of a deal and then you're still getting what you want.
(15:21):
This way it'll kind of help, maybe take a little bit of that resentment away from the work. At least that's where is coming from.
Erin (15:27):
Is it money? Is it time? Is it the work?
Grace (15:30):
Sure.
Erin (15:30):
And I think that's where you have to do the deep work is what is the source of this. And really be reflective.
Grace (15:36):
Yes. Being 100% important here.
Erin (15:39):
You know, what else is going on in your brain. I get into blow shit up mode sometimes. Like when I, you know, I'm a woman, we have like cycles that we go through that really affect everything from mental health. And I tend to go into this downward spiral. And if I get into this mode where I'm like, everything sucks and I'm dying, or, you know, I'm. Everything sucks, I'm ready to blow it up. I look, take a look like, what else is going on and then try to sit on it for 24 to 48 hours before you make big decisions. Although sometimes the emails you write when you're in that pissy mode, like, really get really good results. So that's a choice. That's a huge choice that you have to make.
Grace (16:16):
I would maybe caution you, like, write it, write your pissy email, but then just leave it in draft. Or better yet, just put it in a document that doesn't go anywhere near your email account so you can't accidentally send it. May or may not have done that once or twice. Yeah, that's a fun story. But anyway, like, keep. Keep it in draft, be as mad as you want about it, and then go back after you've had time to cool off and then rewrite it or.
Erin (16:42):
Plug it into my best friend chat GPT, and you're like, okay, this is the email where I feel really angry. This is not the vibe I want to put out. How can you help me soften this? These are the outcomes that I want to make sure we're speaking to.
Grace (16:55):
I like that. Yeah. I've never, I've never used ChatGPT for that specifically.
Erin (16:59):
For the win. For the win.
Grace (17:02):
I like it. Okay, so I want to do a round robin. How do you decide whether it's time to leave completely or if you just maybe need to take a break for a couple months? Nicole, what do you think about that?
Nicole (17:15):
So the deal breakers would be impinging on my values. One. So if that was something that went against my values and I considered it either be, you know, shady or unethical, that's clearly. That's a boundary. Consistent disrespect for boundaries. I had a project once where the person who was most vocal about my work wasn't even on the desi, didn't have any approval process at all, but would criticize my work in front of clients. So blatant disrespect of boundaries, that's. That's a big one, you know, not respecting my time. So those, I think, would be the big three for me. What about you, Erin?
Erin (17:52):
Yeah, I think it's a vibe check. Where is this coming from? For me, it's a vibe check, I think. And I don't necessarily have those criteria set out in the mental rubric, but where is this coming from? What kind of a resentment is this? Is this something I can move past? Is it fixable or is it broken at this point in time? Again, it's like that mental flowchart. Grace and grace, over to you. Let's do this rapid fire before we sign.
Grace (18:19):
Okay. So, for me is, I have to ask myself, I want to agree with all of what you guys have said, like, if it's an infringement on my values, disrespect, it's time to leave completely. That I will not tolerate. If it's just time to take a break, that, for me, is like, am I just maybe bored for now? I get bored very quickly. Unfortunately, that's the ADHD. If I'm just bored, then it might be okay to take a break. If maybe that specific project that they're offering me is not a fit, I might say, you know what? This isn't really my cup of tea. Is there maybe another way that we can work together? Then that's take a break for me.
Erin (18:56):
I'm happy.
Grace (18:57):
Yeah.
Erin (18:58):
Well, thank you to everyone who's tuned in for this episode of should I stay or should I go? Whether to exit stage left or keep the home fires burning, I don't know. I'm just coming up with random things to say at this point. But this is such a good discussion. I feel like we could talk about this for hours. If this is triggering any ideas, questions, internal discussions for you, please let us know. Reach out to us. Hello@thecoffeetable.com. And we would love to hear from you.
Grace (19:26):
Thanks for listening.
Nicole (19:27):
See you next time.
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